[DC 1.2] Greyknights arive to early

[DoomBringer]

I believe greyknights arive to early, it is the same situation us bezerkers in 1.1, i no they cant be spammed but when they arive, they have quite an impact. They also have a fast build time 13s and a reinforce time of 10s.

The issue i have is they are the most powerful tire 2 unit yet they are the first to arive, you dont need a armoury or a sacred artifact to field them.

Solution i think they should need the sacred artifact to build them, Dont nerf there stats!

Greyknights stats
800Hp X6 members Heavy Med
Morale immue
25 morale dps per GK
Force Pike 45dps to Armour HM, IH and Commander per GK
Force Pike Building+Vehicle Damage 15Dps low to high armour
Storm bolter 23dps HM per GK
Psychic ability

Grey knights + Caplain the new Sorceror + Bezerker Rush

[Cyberbob]

you dont need a barracks

Um...

[DoomBringer]

Fixed Lol

[Energizer Bunny]

They're good, but they're power intensive and hard capped at 1. Personally I think that's enough

[DoomBringer]

If you are battling a good harrash they can apair before you no it, i counter harrashed last game both our ecos were terrible we both fast teched, he built no lps before going tire2.
He had 1 power plant which i destroyed and i had deccapped 3 sp, i had more troops than he did and more lps but the greyknights tilted the scale.

[Snake1311]

Sacred artifact would do very little - just increase the ratio of GK+libra combo vs GK+chappie

[DoomBringer]

Yeah but its 125r 50p they have to invest in the sacred artifact, to get a chappie or libra
cost alot of resorces, by that time i could deal with them.

[The Boz]

Fielding them will set the SM player back because of their power cost. They only come up fast because once the SM player gets into T2, he has two choices: get vehicles in a few minutes, or get GKs now. Vehicles come out later, but give a bigger advantage. The GK as a unit are balanced, mostly. It's the PI I'm having trouble with. Noone expects the Psychic Inquisition!

[Energizer Bunny]

Not sure how that happened. 1 gen does not get you quick power. You have the cost of getting to T2 then 90 power to get the GK's. How fast a tech are we talking about? And when did you destroy the gen? Personally I think SM need at least 2 gens for a sustainable early T2 whatever strat they follow

[DoomBringer]

I think they are similar to 1.1 zerc+sorc rush for example chap+greynights.

[peturabo]

Yes Greyknights are absolute bastards to kill and considering they come earlier than my Khorne Berzerkers.

Sometimes i see a GK squad just as i am about to go upto Tier2 come out and i am like "for fuck sake". However...

Greyknights cost 180/180 iirc and khorne berzerkers do beat them in CC so its a massive dent in the space marines economy and generally slows down his tech and econ...if you can keep a cool head when they are out and respond appropriately they are beatable.

If a space marine player fast techs to them..you can destroy his econ and screw him totally for when they do come out.


I have replays at home 1 where we have a massing/eco war and the Gks come out before Zerks..but then the zerks+sorc come out and rape them...another where he fast techs to them and only has 1 lp.

After u kill them if he rebuilds them he should be Tier3.....Chains+Sorc+zerk>>>>chappy+GK. Also bare in mind Gks have a max squad size of 6...zerls squad size is 8...they also eat up more power and are alot more expensive.


Perhaps they do come out too early.
my solution would be to move them to the Sacred Artifact just as Zerks have been moved to the Sac circle.

thanks

Pet

[Question]

They need to be pushed back. They come out too fast, with chappy and apoths they wont die...if they die that means you have an army that costs like 3 times theirs.

Very few things can melee them. Hell you dont want to melee them even with stuff like zerkers, because that is when the chaplain uses shout and the GKs use psychic inquistion . In a huge CC mess.

Also 3 commanders with plasma pistols and GKs on ranged stance > zerkers.

[DoomBringer]

Agree peturabo and question.

[Fannin]

The Chaplain's presence is what tips it. For IG, if I don't have a plasma mass, those bastards just aren't going to die.

Requiring the Sacred Artifact would go a long way to balancing it.

[Affenkot]

the "GK tech" is not imba, because in most cases you are able to strike them down
and usually your eco is much better than the SM`s

[Gostface14]

they come out faster then most races can handle them. only counters are beserkers and NL bugged LF. PI rips apart inf and since it doesnt do friendly damage then it can hold off an entire army of khorne beserkers.

[Cyberbob]

I don't think there's anything wrong with GKs - apart from Psychic Inquisition being a tad too powerful, especially when combined with Shout.

They're damn expensive, don't really have that much health - and there's only one squad of them. An important consequence of their price is that if you can defeat them, the SM player won't be able to afford much else to throw at you (and can forget all about T3 for a while).

-Edit-


it doesnt do friendly damage

I'm pretty sure it does...

[DoomBringer]

Look at there stats there building damage is very high they can take out strong holds, a full squad does 90dps to building high, they are anti everything there is nothing in tire2 they cant counter,
just push them back to tire 2.5.

[Fannin]

Affenkot: Did you read my post? You can't "strike them down" if they have a chaplain in tow. Tier 1 weaponry just can't scratch that combination, and most races can't tech fast enough to get tier 2 weaponry to bear in time.

[Energizer Bunny]

Not necessary IMHO. The Zerk comparison is interesting - yes Zerks come out later but GK's are considerably more expensive and are hard capped at 1.

Saying GK's + all 3 heroes is powerful is true, but you're talking about in excess of 1100/360 worth of troops there. For that money you can have 5 bezerker squads and still have money left over. What would win that matchup?

I do understand they are tough to kill at the start of T2, but there are a number of ebbs and flows between races powers in the game and in my opinion pushing them back to 2.5 would actually make them underpowered

[DoomBringer]

Five Berzerker squads 33s for each squad to build 1000r 100p for 5 squads of 4, 2000r 200p for a squad fully rienforced?

[MegaTheOne]

first of all Gks cost 180/90

i used GK rush before patch and it was much better

PI does crap dmg now.. if i recal from testing it.. full PI didnt even kill upgraded guardsman (it used to kill obliterators in 1.1 remember?)

ranged dmg is nerfed to about SM tactical dmg (it used to be termie dmg before)

chaplain regen rate is nerfed

hell i would trade 1.1 Gks or these anytime

in 1.1 when i got GKs and chaplain (not attachable so harder to micro but much more effective) i would make sure game end in tier 2

about IG countering GKs.. just bunker up and laugh.. i am the one whos crying then
it gets fishy when dreds come

[peturabo]

the "GK tech" is not imba

Then Zerk tech was not imba(Same sausage different skin), they are the same thing but Gks are overall alot better and tougher than zerks for cost vs everything but zerks.


first of all Gks cost 180/90

lol for that cost they definitely come out too fast then.

& i try not to pay attention to the whiney Igs on this forum, because 90% of them dont even know how to play their own race...ive beaten them 90% on the ladder...yet the Igs that dont whine pawn me 24-7........so just try to ignore them.

Pet

Sigh*

Notice how a thread devoted the balance of Greyknights, suddenly becomes a thread at about how helpeless Ig are :>


Greyknights and the Chaplain should be moved to the Sacred Artifact.

Problem solved.

gg

[Question]

PI wasnt nerfed IIRC. Infact it was buffed......it doesnt do friendly fire damage anymore.

Your 5 berserker squads that try to melee my GK + 3 commanders + some support gets hit by smite and PI. I win. Not to mention 5 berserker squads come out way latter than GK + commanders.

I think GK should stay at barracks, and chaplain at the HQ, but require the sacred artifact.

[Energizer Bunny]

Notice how a thread devoted the balance of Greyknights, suddenly becomes a thread at about how helpeless Ig are

That has started happening quite a lot lately


Then Zerk tech was not imba(Same sausage different skin

Completely different unit with different cost one of which is hard capped at 1.


Greyknights and the Chaplain should be moved to the Sacred Artifact.

Chaplain as well now? Not necessary for either in my opinion. Most races get units that arrive purely as a result of T2 being reached, rather than 2.5. If you implement the above you will absolutely annihilate SM early T2 (vehicles are T2.5, GK's would be T2.5, upgraded tacs are T2.5 before you manage to get them to anything like a decent force).


Your 5 berserker squads that try to melee my GK + 3 commanders + some support gets hit by smite and PI. I win.

You're mad. Smite does 240-320 damage and takes 60 seconds to recharge. Zerks have 610 HP each. 2 smites aren't going to kill them. The Librarian is dead before smite recharges in all likelihood.

PI is very good for sure, but even assuming that every lance hits them, it's only just going to kill a Zerk squad. In reality that squad will almost certainly survive, even coupled with shout. No further PI for 2 minutes, meaning that the Chappy and his ultra crappy HP is then toast. The GK's will do well but will still lose to the two Zerk squads they're now engaged with. The remnants should have no trouble polishing off the FC.

[Gostface14]

hes not saying the abilitys alone...he is talking about the support (id say 2 tacs with plasmas or HB...whichever does more damage) and the commanders meleeing.

[Energizer Bunny]

I made the additional comparison cost for cost for illustrative purposes (to underline how much those 4 heroes cost). If we're introducing HB tacs into the equation then we need HB CSM or equivalent also in there.

All I'm saying is that it's very easy to see a small number of units doing a lot of damage and assume it's imba, but don't forget the enourmous cost of those units. 1100/360 buys most races an army. If that's what the combo costs they should be dishing out good damage (but not out of line with what other races can do for that money).

[Fixer]

I fail to see how people are having issues with a single unit of grey knights. Yesterday I used two squads of tactical marines (no upgrades) and a force commander against a unit of GKs, even with Demo shout I was able to walk my squad out of PI with only a graze.

What's more, I had solid map control and a much better economy. Since the single unit of GKs could be outshot by my 2 squads of tacs, danced eternally and I had another squad of marines out to finish off LPs at the edges of his base the game was easilly mine.

In a previous match I bunny hopped two squads of scouts with sniper rifles (tier 1, no stealth, no upgrades) from one side of the map to the other with the GKs in tow, killing them off slowly as they came.

I fail to see how GKs are that big an issue when they come out early with nothing to support them. Escpecially since most other armies have better ranged units to deal with them.

Eldar, use Reapers.
Tau, use firewarriors.
Orks, use Shootas. You can use your teleport and an attach to get out of PI, or even use you big mek to go hit his generators making it impossible for him to re-enforce them. With massive early map control and the speed at which you can cap points this one should be easy.
Necrons: Your NL should be hitting his base and teleporting away from danger with ease. With map control yours, a marine army will be easy to grind down.
Chaos: You have an awesome harrassing unit and can tech to sorcerer + bezerkers, who will rape GKs for cost.

The only army that really suffers is Imperial guard due to the low HP of their infantry, and then that's a general fault of the army (which suffers in the patch), not something wrong with GKs.

[Affenkot]

when an SM tech GK, he has a long period of time where you can hurt him seriously and additionally you are able to go for a good eco !

the SM cant even build a single LP2 if he wants the chaplain comes fast , too.

my points:
-SM is week for long period of time
-You yourself are able to harass him VERY nice with your T1 units
& able to establish a good eco while you damage his eco.
-When GK`s come into the fight you simply have to retreat
and use your eco-advantage !
-surely: you have to "abuse" the period on SM`s weakness ( no units but scouts )


but i admit that their build time should be increased by some seconds ( ~ 15 ) !

my situation is created in a 1vs1 situation.

[peturabo]

-SM is week for long period of time

No they aren't.


-You yourself are able to harass him VERY nice with your T1 units

The reason they come out too fast in the Csm v Sm MU is because, you're both massing at each other...with space marines cheaper Tier2 upgrade and Chaos need a sacrificial circle to get Zerkers...u will have 2+ tacts+hero+GK vs CL+2csm/rapt and fag grenades which stun CC units and warshout which is a instadead unit(Just like chains).


Chaos: You have an awesome harrassing unit and can tech to sorcerer + bezerkers, who will rape GKs for cost.

Thing is...

massss scouts generator>Chaos...you will always hit Tier2 faster and with a better econ. hell if Sm only send a single scout squad to harass/decap that is better cost wise than a single rapt squad is.


Eldar, use Reapers.

Tacts+asm+hero pp+flamer+frag grenades.

I wouldnt call that weak.


In this MU Chaos HAVE to fast tech if you mass at ecah other the space marines always wins and even then if chaos fast techs space marines can pawn them with a well microed mass scout BO.

Tacts also scale better than csm troops do and we cant get our Tier2 troops to Tier2.5 and you can access your as soon as u hit T2.

[Fixer]

If the marine player is massing scouts, he's not fast teching to GKs.

If the marine player has bought himself an armory, or any of the upgrades you have mentioned, he is not fast teching to GKs.

In fact, although the units you mention are strong, you will never see them used together because the power/req requirement to get those upgrades give you an army the fraction of the size of your opponent's early game.

The Chaos/marine matchup is screwed, because Chaos generally has a better tier 1 and an easier time until you get up to higher levels of play, whereby micromanagement of 6 scout squads gives the marine player an advantage. in all other sitations it's chaos > SM.

Space marines are seriously weak in tier 1, and it's only the use of scouts and harrassment to cripple opponents economy early that give them any level of competetive advantage against most other armies.

[Fannin]

If SM has a serious weakness in tier 1, and even something as straightforward as tacmass can walk all over IG, I wonder what that makes IG.

[Energizer Bunny]

Does everything have to come back to IG? Yes they are weak but you can't balance everything down to your weakest race.

[MegaTheOne]

Pi isnt buffed

if removing friendly fire for more than 50% dmg reduction (on 8 range area of effect) is buff then we are not playing the same game

[SubakuGaara]

Gks come out ok. A bit early yes, but only 3 of them. By the time they get to 6, everyone should be able to fight them. I personally think gks are fine. In fact they need a buff in the form of making that gk charge a targetable and controllable ability rather than something that just auto matcically fires.

[Troubleshooter]

the "GK tech" is not imba, because in most cases you are able to strike them down
and usually your eco is much better than the SM`sSomeone not playing IG much ;)

GK tech is totaly IMBA vs. some MU's.. it needs a good nerfing. Moving the unlock to the sacred artifact seems the way to go. Heck, I would have them build from the SC just to make the SM do a timing trade-off for the librarian/wote vs. early GK's. I know other races have a better chance at dealing with this, but for IG its a friggin nightmare.

[SubakuGaara]

Can't balance everything according to IG. Perhaps the solution is not to nerf GKs but to give IG a decent gk counter such as a psyker spell that targets units with spells and abilities to reset cooldowns, forcing them to start again. That would be awesome gk+libby+chappy+every nuke spell counter and woudn't throw the game out of whack. It'd also make psykers more useful. In reality, a 6 man gk is slightly less effective than an 8 man zerker. Do the math for yourself.

[Affenkot]

trouble, you can go for tactica-BO; 3x GM + GL ; seargent . you put down a lot of LP`s , then his GK come and they are laying on their back for a while. a single GK squad cant do much but PI! run out and shoot back.

with IC + CS -BO you can also go for taking down SM`s LP`s & go for T2 too, tactica ; priest, GL/Plasma.
with that you can survive up to T4.

[Hirmetrium]

I knew this was coming after the patch.

GKs = the new Bezerkers. Whine and hypothesis all you like, thats what they are.

[Fail_Kun]

y hallo thar, can zerkers CC gk+chappy, or do they die too fast?

[Fannin]

In reality, a 6 man gk is slightly less effective than an 8 man zerker. Do the math for yourself.

Untrue. They're slightly better. They have a spell, they have what amounts to plasma bolters, and they're just as good in melee for cost. There was a reason berzerkers were pushed back till after the SC. It's the same situation all over again.

Though, I have to say I like the idea of a psyker spell that resets enemy cooldowns. That would keep those nasty AoE spells from being so much more powerful against IG than they are against anyone else.

[SubakuGaara]

Dunno... I know that if a chaos lord with symbol of chaos is nearby, zerker melee pretty much equals gk melee. HP totals are equal too. Gks in ranged are ok and so is that little spell, but I just dance it and its over. ALl I can say is in my CSM v SM matchup, GKs always end up dead and my 2x zerkers almost always are left alive to chase some litte tacs around.

Yeah I like that psyker spell as well. It would
1) make the psyker useful
2) make IG a liitte tougher
3) allow IG to take care of those units that are most trouble some to them such as warp spiders, etc. BTW, ws are a lot easier to fight when they aren't jumping around.

Maybe I'll start a thread suggesting it. Problem is which Psyker spell should go?

[Fannin]

None of them. They're all necessary. Just add it.

Edit: Re the berzerkers... if you get a chaos lord w/ symbol of chaos, then they get an FC w/ inspiring aura, or librarian, or chappy; take your pick. Otherwise it's not an equal situation.

[The Boz]

There's no place in the CS to add another spell. Maybe have Strip Soul do something like 50 damage, reset all spell's cooldowns, and then inflict as much damage as there are seconds of recharge on spells? I like the idea, yep.

[Integrity]

I, personally, think GKs are beautifully balanced - sure, PI still owns flimsy units (guardsmen, guardians, cultists - cappers), before respective armor upgrades, but it doesn't even nick vehicles - 40 damage a tick. Okay, but given that a vehicle'll be in the radius for four, five seconds before it gets pulled that's <100 damage. Doesn't even nick.

Now, my only gripe with them is they not only outmelee a goodly few melee specialists (more DPS, higher HP, more expensive than 'zerkers, bit lower DPS, more HP, more expensive than FO, etc.), but they can outshoot some ranged units. On the other hand, that primarily boils down to IG - Guardsmen damn near cannot kill them. But, IG has the tough-assed Chimaera at that tier, so neh.

Now, I'm ALL for requiring the Artifact to make the chappy/GKs, because that would allow you to requisition your fanatics, which would make sense, no?

Affenkot - I tried that just yesterday against unsupported GKs. Problem is, the PI/run is all they need to do against GM, and the GKs can outshoot them to boot. Like I said, I think the counter to GKs lies not in GM, but in Chimaeras. Also, the problem with your second BO (GM+CS, tactica, etc.) is you tie up all your resources towards the GM, without leaving much - if any - room for AV.

Fail - a squad of 'zerkers should be 50-50 against a squad of GKs, and cheaper, but with a chappy it's definitely the GK's win.

Alright, I fell to rambling again. I tend towards that...

EDIT: Four posts in the time it took me to type that. Huh, I must be getting...old?

Anyway, I like the Strip Soul resetting cooldowns.

EDIT2: The GK/Zerker test was not counting PI, or Furious Charge, or squads shooting at each other prior to engaging - just a straight melee.

[SubakuGaara]

ahh... but consider that in CSM play with zerker, the sac circle is critical as in always there. But in SM play, sacred artifact is there about 30 percent of the time so that fc upgrade is rare. Most SM go machine pit you see. It is far far more likely that the Chaos lord has his upgrade than the FC having his.

I see what you're saying, but trust me on this. Zerkers are a little more efficient than GKs in a 1v1 matchup. Even still, think about it like this.

6 gks x 40 dps=240 dps total
8 zerkers+ 35 dps= 280 dps.

6 gksX 800 hp= 4800 hp
8 zerkersX 60 hp= 4800 HP

Only way gks might win is if zerkers charge in while gks are standing and shooting or if gk charge scores free 100 hp damage.

[Integrity]

Only way gks might win is if zerkers charge in while gks are standing and shooting or if gk charge scores free 100 hp damage

Maybe if the GKs blew PI on the zerkers? Though, I guess it'd be kinda wasteful to use it on one squad...

And, thanks for actually totaling the numbers - I just took them and did a rough total in my head ;)

EDIT: Man, I am the edit MACHINE today!
Anyway, I just noticed that 'zerkers regen half again as fast as GKs, so there's another little edge.

[Fannin]

sure, PI still owns flimsy units (guardsmen, guardians, cultists - cappers),

That, right there, breaks a particular matchup all to hell. It seems that a lot of people are of the mind that IG should be a total non-issue when it comes to balance.

Take heart, Relic apparently agrees with you.

[Troubleshooter]

Can't balance everything according to IG.Er, isnt that the whole point though... If theres something broken to the point of making one race worthless, you fix the MU.

Either you nerf GK arrival time, or you buff GM. I think most everyone agrees that GK's show up too early in any MU that matters, so I vote you move GK tech back to the artifact.

While we are at it, Harliquin tech is almost as bad for IG, but the ability to run from the Kiss helps out some what (and the fact that Harlies on their own cant take down LP's. The point is that any race that has a tier 2 unit with army killing capacity should not have instant access to that unit before a reasonable scouting and counter force can go to work on it in a 1v1. So, GK tech and Harlie tech are broken on large maps vs. IG, and so they need to be pushed back a bit. Simple really, not even warrenting a big debate - just do it because it makes no sense to blatantly screw over IG just because IG has no way to counter this with mass GM (which is all we have in tier 1 through tier 2.5.)

If protecting these tech options is that important, then make HWT come out WAY earlier and make them spammy (build at the HQ and IC) and cut cost. 1 lone HWT (250/50) can't counter shit, comes out later, is less tactically useful and is actually countered by other units that hit the field before them. GK's and Harlies do to IG what it would take 3 HWT's to do in return. Think about that balance for a second... if IG were able to have 3 HWTs out and deployed by 3:20... imagine the howls of IMBA at the prospect.

Again, if all races had to put up with the same BS that IG does, no one would play this game, and its not fair to brush IG aside because its "too hard" to consider them in the equation.

[Integrity]

That, right there, breaks a particular matchup all to hell. It seems that a lot of people are of the mind that IG should be a total non-issue when it comes to balance.

Take heart, Relic apparently agrees with you.

For the record, sir, I play exclusively IG. ;)

Like I said, we have Chimaeras. Those things are damn sturdy.

Yes, GM cannot counter GKs at t2. Yes, that pisses me off. This is a GK thread, though. Not a GK/IG thread.

[Troubleshooter]

Like I said, we has Chimaeras. Those things are damn sturdy.I actually used chims last night to save my CS from a GK/Chappy combo hit... and LOL'ed all the way back to my base. But, have you seen what GK's do to chims? OMG dont call them sturdy... fast maybe, but sturdy they aint :)


Yes, GM cannot counter GKs at t2. Yes, that pisses me off. This is a GK thread, though. Not a GK/IG threadNo, its a balance thread about GK's. GM are part of that math. And there are many ways to balance a unit, one possible solution is to buff the one broken MU to preserve the other unit/race. So I throw out what it would take to balance GK tech in the face of IG as they exist curretly. Ork players (who have probs. with GK tech too) can do the same... and we can start to build a picture of what the game would look like if every race were altered to compensate for GK tech.

[SubakuGaara]

Trouble, how about this. Instead fix IG to help with balance as other races do ok vs gks. Chaos certainly does.

I suggest a t2 spell for the psyker that resets the cooldown on units abilities to zero. That would effectively slow down Harlies, gks, and other spell nuking units that IG is losing to. It just takes those spell nukes and sets the counter back to zero so they have to recharge fully. Problem solved. The balancing is merely a matter of the priests own cooldown for this spell . I say something about 120 secs seems about right or 150 secs.

this would fix IG MU vs
gks
harle
warp spiders/oblits/etc

[Integrity]

Okay, I guess I didn't mean sturdy :p More like efficient...100/70 and 1 pop vehicles.


I suggest a t2 spell for the psyker that resets the cooldown on units abilities to zero. That would effectively slow down Harlies, gks, and other spell nuking units that IG is losing to. It just takes those spell nukes and sets the counter back to zero so they have to recharge fully. Problem solved. The balancing is merely a matter of the priests own cooldown for this spell . I say something about 120 secs seems about right or 150 secs.

I suggest 180. Theoretically, with the CS, you can have seven out. I think one Psyker should not be able to lock down a unit's cooldowns on his one.

And I'm hoping that you didn't actually mean resets them to ZERO, as that would be counter-productive. :p

Just had me another thought...

What if, there were a total of about seven neat Psyker spells, and you could select two for your CS Psykers and two for your HQ psykers? Kinda like the NL's artifacts?

[Troubleshooter]

SubakuGaara PI is not the only factor at work though. GK's set to ranged stance are just as bad as standard terminators. They have near bolter wall efects on GM. And what they do to the CS in CC is a crime. GK's without PI would still be a perfect counter to every unit I have on the field when they hit.

Having a spell effect to nuke GK's and Harlies (and farseers, and enemy psykers, and every other spell effect in the whole of the game) would make the Psyker UBER, and not in a good way. Imagine the FC trying to drop a OB and getting zapped by a psyker... LOLx10 :) Besides, Spell effects are fun. Frustrating for the target, but make the game fun. Putting in a null-card subtracts fun from the game.

I advocate balanceing the units according to arrival time and cost, not by adding in more wild cards to the balance equation. Zerks + Sorc were perfectly balanced out with a simple change... I got no probs with zerk teching noobs now. This all seems fixable with a similar nerf.

[War-Reborn]

I think GK are ok, sure IG have issues with them, but IG have issues with DR, Vespids etc, an thats down to everything IG do relying on GM which dont always fit the bill for every situation.

If GK are imbal it's certainly not by a lot, an to be honest i think the issue is more with a certain army, IG again, not having good counters against certain units an what needs to be done here is for these counters to be bought into the IG lineup.

subakugaara put's an interesting point on perhaps the addtion of a caster spell, something like the lightning arc could be reworked to a spell, which breaks morale, an in the case (and only the case of morale immune units) leech there special abilty's draining it of half or all it's charge, if they have any special abilites to leech.

GK seem ok to me, if certain sides have issue's it needs to be addressed at that end not this one.

[Integrity]

an thats down to everything IG do relying on GM which dont always fit the bill for every situation.

I actually thought about that a few days back. What if Kasrkin were available at T2, since their upgrades are in T3, with a hardcap of 1, but researching Full Scale War recapped them at 2 or 3?

[Troubleshooter]

I actually thought about that a few days back. What if Kasrkin were available at T2, since their upgrades are in T3, with a hardcap of 1, but researching Full Scale War recapped them at 2 or 3?There would be no IG tier 1. Now everyone is fast teching again, skipping to the good stuff in tier 2 without playing out tier 1. IG have an inherent advantage in that they get bunkers, so IG econ is untouchable, and kas would make big holes where the enemies tier 1 used to be... and so we get back to the issue of what makes the game better, not just what makes IG work in relation to other races lame ass fast tech options.

Now whats funny though, is that I proposed and still do, Kas in tier 1. Yeah, sounds bad right? The point is that IG dont have a Heavy infantry unit, and no Anti-Building out side of the CS and commies until late in tier 2. The 100 Power requirement on Kas is enough of a throttle on them to make them not a no-brainer build for every match, and you can move Frags back a tier or 2 along with upgrades. It also opens up a new build path for IG that is not 100% predictable... which IG sorely need.

[The Boz]

Having a spell effect to nuke GK's and Harlies (and farseers, and enemy psykers, and every other spell effect in the whole of the game) would make the Psyker UBER, and not in a good way. Imagine the FC trying to drop a OB and getting zapped by a psyker... LOLx10 Besides, Spell effects are fun. Frustrating for the target, but make the game fun. Putting in a null-card subtracts fun from the game.
I see someone never played a Guild Wars Mesmer, and may have possibly been a target of one :P
Oh, and whatever ideas you guys have on making IG less predictible, let's hear it! My army sure could use some more variety in their ranks!
Kasrkin in T1? Severely unupgraded Kasrkin, yes, and that the GM upgrades affect them too. How about you only have, say, 5 of them before T3+?
But I must say I like Ogryns in T1/T2 much more. IG need more melee presence. I mean, yeah, they're a shooty race, but that sure doesn't stop Tau from having the best melee force now does it?

[MegaTheOne]

once again

Gks bolter did termie dmg in 1.1.. in it 1.2 does about as much as tactical marine

PI is not so powerful anymore
like i said i tested in on upgraded guardsman squad(maybe there was a priest) and with all hits they still had like 10-20% Hp left.. in 1.1 it used to kill them in max 2-3 hits

i did Gk rush since DC came out

[Integrity]

Kas in tier 1.

Totally in. I effin LOVE the Kaskrin <3

As a complete sidenote, how would it work for Kasrkin to have higher melee damage vs. demons? I mean, they're trained from birth pretty much to fight the things?

[SubakuGaara]

@troubleshooter

I don't know about gks ranged being over the top. Seems just right to me. Good enough to be effective, but not so good that it'll always be chosen over ranged. I also don't see how they just slaughter IG with ranged. Its 20 dps about to guardsmen, which is comparable to a lot of units. A 6 man gk squad in ranged should get blasted to bits by guardsmen with hws, especially when you consider that each gk costs 3 guardsmen and a good bit of power.

About the psyker spell, you said it yourself. You have a pskyer present, and the psyker zaps him. The force commander is about to use his orbital bombard, and bam you zap him and reset his timer. For one thing, outside of this imaginary spell, there is no counter for orbital bombard. If an SM wants to nuke your base, 95 percent of the time there's no way you're gonna stop that FC from planting the beacon. Secondly, it wouldn't be so bad as long as
1) psykers remain capped at 3
2) the ability has a long cooldown (150 sec plus).


I don't think it'd be a cheap freebie spell and would help in a lot of matchups such as
1) ig v gks
2) ig v eldar
3) ig v omg wtf ownage l33t necron lord.

those are the ones that are worst. And if you think about it, IG as a race doesn't have very many spells. The psker has 3, the priest gets a late invincibility, and execute is the only really good early once. They could use this spell very much and it'd be great as the other MUs vs eldar and vs necron would remain unchanged.

just think it about it some more. You'll come around. Once you do it'll simply be a matter of setting cooldowns on the spell.

[JVikeing]

I seem to have accidentally clicked a "Let's tweak IG balance" thread rather than a "Greyknights arrive too early" thread.

[Fannin]

GKs vs IG is one of the matchups where the IMBA of the GK is most showcased; thus, more responses regarding possible ways to fix that particular matchup are cropping up than any regarding other races.

It's hardly our fault that Relic hates IG, now is it? ;)

[JVikeing]

It's definitely no fault of your own, but do you realistically expect Kasrkin to become T1 solely based upon the speed with which GK hit the field?

Would changes like that not be better suited in a thread of their own?

[Fannin]

Haha... Well, I guess I have to give that one to you.

To be fair, I didn't start it ;)

[JVikeing]

Unfortunately the only viable solution I see to fix IG is a holistic reworking of the race. I am not suggesting that we change the playstyle that makes IG unique, far from it. But if we are going to change one numerical aspect of IG (DPS, health, morale damage, etc.), we need to tweak another set of numbers in another line of code. I made a post about this here: IG balance (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=2262277#post2262277)


On the subject of GK balance and the speed with which they enter the battle...

There are two separate scenarios being discussed here. One is a straight tech to GK foregoing anything else (barring maybe some minor scout harass). A chaplain takes approximately twice as long to build as Grey Knights, the GK will come out first, and unsupported. Regardless, any race's T1 mass will easily be able to defeat 3x GK with or without a Chaplain. Don't try and kid yourself and BS this thread. If your opponent has spent* over 890 req (250 + 260 +180 + 200) and over 185 power (105 + 50 + 30), and at least three minutes of the match making four units, you will be able to kill them. But this does not seem to constitute the majority of the GK imbalance discussions and is a rather silly scenario.

What is more lethal and potentially imbalanced is the delayed tech scenario typically involving a FC, at least two tactical squads, and a moderately quick segue (typically 5-8 minutes) into T2 and Grey Knights followed by a Chaplain (typically 1-2 minutes later). Is this imbalanced? Let's examine:
- By attempting an early tech to T2 the space marine player is most likely foregoing attempts to reinforce his tactical squads to full, and at the very least is not making an armory. Nor is he massing scouts and getting the oh-so-hated infiltration research.
- While the research is in progress the SM can continue to build, upgrade, and reinforce his existing forces, or float his resources in an attempt to pop out a GK squad and/or a Chaplain immediately upon hitting T2.
- As his opponent, what you do during this time is critical. You can force his hand and attack him, (requiring him to either concede map control or reinforce his squads and lose his float) or try and out-tech him.
- For a comparison, imagine if the SM player decided not to go for the GK + Chaplain combination, and he settled for a tac mass with armory upgrades BO. Come T2, instead of having 3 GK and a Chaplain, he will have 9 man tactical squads with heavy weapons, with damage and health much stronger than anything remotely attainable in T1 (NW aside).
- Regardless of the course of action taken, once his GKs come out the fighting situation is changed. In patch 1.2 the damage from Psychic Inquisition has been roughly halved from its previous incarnation, and their ranged damage reduced to a tactical squad with their target finders upgrade.
- I myself have never had any problems fighting Grey Knights, and when I use them I find their true strength is in the psychological effect they have on my opponent.
- Having a very small, powerful, and cost effective squad can have its advantages. But one squad cannot be everywhere at once, nor can it fight in close combat and at ranged at the same time. Coupled with tactical squads and heroes GK become much more dangerous, but for a comparative cost a SM player could have a machine cult and a rhino instead. (I would much rather fight off a GK + chap rush then chase after a tac mass BO with rhinos)

In summation it is my personal opinion that Grey Knights are definitely not overpowered, nor is the speed with which they can be deployed. A blitz on their econ, map control, and T1 mass are all effective counters- and please don't think this theorycraft either. I speak only with first-hand knowledge, either from practice or observation. I do not cite web pages or popular opinions. If there is something I have overlooked in my analysis, point it out. If you disagree, that is fine too, but please provide some rationale.

/end post



*this is not taking into account any LPs or Power Gens or anything else that you spend money to make money on

[SubakuGaara]

Discussion of IG v gks is more prominent, because IG apparently has the worst time vs them. I know chaos does just fine, necs suffer a bit but not imba suffering, eldar is cool, and so on. Its only really Ig that feels that come too fast; I can kinda see that but then again quite a few IG players still think zerkers are too fast and are imba. I get that all the time. Sometimes I've even called a quick tech noob, which hurts cause I'm very sensitive you know... anyway, adding an IG spell to help handle those units that seem to murder 8 gaurdsmen at once with nuke type spells won't throw the game out of whack, especially if you set the cooldown just right. better yet the rest of us who are nicely balanced vs gks won't have to change at all.

[4Servant]

2 problems with gk

1. Biggist problem is that you can attach the chapster and make the sqaud and your healing machine extremly hard to kill.

2. To cost effective when they come.

my solution: make them unatacheble or something and let them benefit bionics so they don't come as instant out of the box killers.

[War-Reborn]

I dont think the unit itself needs any nerfs, otherwise it's effectiveness in tier 3 is going to drop further, it's a small sqaud an while it's very strong in tier 2, it doesnt scale from there, main reason it's so strong is becuase it combines so effectively with the chaplin, an the result is you have a very formidable squad even if it is expensive getting all that stuff together in one package.

I dont think making it unattachable is the way to go, because that means not being able to attach medics other commanders etc, which is a good way to keep the squad fresh in tier 3, it's also fun an interesting to use commander attachments to give differant squads more flexiblity or extra abilites, so it's not something i'd like to see go.

I think a better option is for it go to tier 2.5 via sacred artifact as others have suggested, or the chaplin needs to go to tier 2.5, one of them needs to go there an the GK i would say are the best candidate, that way you solve the issue of such a strong unit so early on without spoiling it by not allowing commander attachments.

[Integrity]

let them benefit bionics so they don't come as instant out of the box killers.

Not bad, not bad. Thoughts on this?

[Hiroshi_Tea]

i like it
kinda like how kassy are...
(ZOMG an IG comparison)
weak out of the box
but once an upgrade happens,
they're good 2 go...
or they can have a separate armor upgrade
i like that idea better

[Integrity]

Nah, Bionics already affects all the other marines, why not GKs?

OOH! Maybe tie them into the Commander upgrades, like Warlocks/SC?

Then you could keep them not requiring the Artifact, but all their upgrades are there?

[Hiroshi_Tea]

the reason why i want ti to be an extra upgrade
is because...you already have tacs to deal with
and the OMG< suddenly the GKs NAD tacs start WTPwning
because their HP suddenly got boosted
that's why
it's much more manageable if the
HP boost happens to either the tacs
or the GKs and not both
at the same time

[JVikeing]

I would refer those who continue this debate to my above post: link (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=2262363#post2262363), and would further ask how you think that adding in a bionic-type research to Grey Knights would help matters. Would making them become glass cannons solve the problem?

I just had a spontaneous idea. What if the grey knight's stats remained untouched and a GK quarters/aspect stone was added to the chapel barracks. It could cost a small amount of power/req and take some time to research, thus delaying the GK rush and increasing their initial cost.

Comments?

[DoomBringer]

Whats wrong with them just needing the sacred artifact, its cost 125r 50p and has a 30s build time, simple easy fix.

[Cyberbob]

Because GKs are expensive enough, and aren't particularly imbalanced.

[DoomBringer]

What ever if warp spiders came straight after soul shrine, would that be good balance?
Look at there stats they are better than zerks were, there building damage is good vs all armour they porn commanders, they are boarder line tire3 units, its not like space marines are so weak that they need them tire2 on the dot.

Greyknights stats
800Hp X6 members Heavy Med
Morale immue
25 morale dps per GK
Force Pike 45dps to Armour HM, IH and Commander per GK
Force Pike Building+Vehicle Damage 15Dps low to high armour
Storm bolter 23dps HM per GK
Psychic ability

[Troubleshooter]

Regardless, any race's T1 mass will easily be able to defeat 3x GK with or without a Chaplain. Don't try and kid yourself and BS this thread. If your opponent has spent* over 890 req (250 + 260 +180 + 200) and over 185 power (105 + 50 + 30), and at least three minutes of the match making four units, you will be able to kill them. But this does not seem to constitute the majority of the GK imbalance discussions and is a rather silly scenario.Not true. IG reaches the SM temple just about the time the GKs start building... just before the tech cycle ends. At this point, with an all out 3 squad and CS rush, the SM player will have 2 scouts. You have just barely enough Damage in that mix to take down the temple IF the scouts dont CC your GM squads. If the GK's pop out, they can out run the CS/GM until they reinforce, and then turn and slay the CS and all the gm you brought. And for all this, the SM's econ is sufficient to get a chappy to go along with this and finish off your econ as IG, tier 2 will be a distant dream, and brings you nothing out of the box to counter GK's.

Now, as you pointed out, theres other ways to deal with GK tech, and IG can turtle a bit and play catch up. But unless you agressivly hunt scouts, hes going to use the GK/Chappy to push you off the middle of the map and then get econ and tech advantage. This will start to snowball as he invests in minimal stuff on the race up to Termies. Mean while you have a few squads of impotent GM and a cs that is just as chewy... so you have to get to tier 3 fast, but your investing in defenses and econ - hes just getting to the orbital and prepping OB for your ass.

The problem for IG in this scenerio is not how do you kill the GK's, cause you dont. Your problem is how do you stall his tech, just enough to get to a fully kitted kas squad that does stand a chance? Kas come out late, and need lots of time and attention to get to GK counter quality... it only takes one orbital to kill off your IC and Gen farm, and then its GG.

The IG problem remains, and needs to be addressed. IMO, that requires that ALL units in the game that have the potential to kill both the CS and GM with high effecincey need to be pushed back. IG have the squad tax preventing massing, it never gets any cheaper to replace squads, and fresh squads are about the most fragile things in the game for cost. So long as IG squads are taxed and throttled to prevent massing, then you just can not have "surprise" units pop out that kill whole squads at 3:20 into the game... thats a full 2 minutes before the typical IG player has schedueled for his tier 2!

IMO, the simplest solution is to move GKs to the artifact... it prevents the Lib/smite/Wote from hitting at the same time as GK's, and solves the problem of WTF do you do when the SM HQ upgrades just as your CS scouts it out...

[Cyberbob]

Look at there stats they are better than zerks were

Read my post again. I'll even quote the relevant part for you.


Because GKs are expensive enough

Also - don't compare GKs to Warp Spiders. I don't even know where to begin explaining why...

-Edit-

Trouble, it would be much better to simply make IG more viable in their own right than to nerf a unit that is fairly well balanced in most other MUs.

[DoomBringer]

Its not like if they have to building a sacred artifact to get GK is a big nerf, marines are more than capible of countering anything even with out GK. All there tire1 units scale will in to tire2.

180r 90p is similar to commander cost and they are far better than a commander 135dps to commanders out of the box, they can counter anything you can get at tire2.

By the why bob of subject you follow sport?

[Cyberbob]

Except that the only time GKs are truly dangerous is when the SM player has hardteched to them, and gotten a Chaplain. That shit's expensive - there won't be much (if anything) else on the field.

I'm certain you'll be able to out-squad them.

[DoomBringer]

Bob you just wrote what i was trying to get across, they are very hard to counter with a good scout harrash and a hardtech to GK. And yes i can out mass them but im spending resource on tier1 units to counter them when i should be teching while hes getting marines with plasma and teching to tier3

[Cyberbob]

Bob you just wrote what i was trying to get across

Um, no I didn't. I was making the point that while a fast-tech to GKs + Chaplain is dangerous, it leaves the SM player dangerously undermanned and short on vital earlygame resources. He won't be hitting Tier 3 for a while, let me tell you.

[JVikeing]

Troubleshooter, with a 3 squad + CS rush, why would you start by attacking his temple? Why not take over the map and tech up. Your econ will be far superior, and even if you cannot take his GK + chap squad out, you should at least be able to stall until you get a HWT, HH, etc. Furthermore, it is my experience that mass grenades work wonders against low number high yield troops like Grey Knights.

I don't mean to toss around theoretical counters and act like I'm a better IG player than you (I'm not). But firsthand experience has shown me that a GK tech by itself does not pose any problems for competent IG- yourself included. Can you, or anyone else, provide a replay where a straight tech to GK wins a match and is clearly overpowering against IG?


*And on another note I don't see how adding in the requirement of the sacred artifact or anything else for that matter will help the situation if the Knights themselves are imbalanced. All in all, it would delay their release by a whopping 30 seconds.

[Cyberbob]

Can you, or anyone else, provide a replay where a straight tech to GK wins a match and is clearly overpowering against IG?

Hell, I'd like to see one for any race - provided the quality of play is adequate, of course. I hate it when people post replays with shocking play and think that vindicates their position.

[MegaTheOne]

JVikeing i couldnt possibly agree more

GK rush was FAR more deadly at 1.1
for 30 power you got twice better PI and ranged dmg
call that uncounterable

apparently IG has problems with all races
you cant nerf race according to one

[Energizer Bunny]

The IG problem remains, and needs to be addressed. IMO, that requires that ALL units in the game that have the potential to kill both the CS and GM with high effecincey need to be pushed back.

I completely disagree.

I don't play IG, but based on the opinions I see from people who do I accept they are an under powered race. However, I fundamentally do not agree that you balance a game based on the lowest common denominator. IG should be brought up to the level of other races, not the other way around. A median of balance should be found and then those above it brought down and those below it brought up.

I believe GK's are balanced against most races. I rarely play against IG and they hold no interest whatsover to me personally so I don't play with them. If you say GK's are imbalanced against IG, I take your word for it. However, you don't break 5 equations to make one work. If IG can't handle GK, by all means give them some way of doing so, but do it by buffing them rather than nerfing others.

And to those saying this is the new Zerk tech, beyond the fact it's fast teching to a hero and another unit type I really don't see the comparison. Firstly its a hell of a lot more expensive that Zerk tech was. Secondly in 1.1 Chaos players could be going for T2 pretty much from the start of the game and then spamming Zerks the second they got there. This just isn't an option for SM. The power costs are huge and you're looking at 2 gens to sustain it (or one hell of a wait). Thirdly of course there's the hard capping of GK's meaning that your options to follow up this tech are limited (i.e. you have to win the game with 1 squad or move on - in 1.1 you could win the game just by building endless Zerks and spamming the Sorc). As an SM player if you want to follow up GK tech you're looking at

a) Tacs - good but time to build and since you won't have bionics they aren't going to be T2 troops for quite a while

b) Vehicles - need vehicle pit and you're already very short on power from sustaining your GK's

c) More heroes - probably the easiest option but you need SA and even then it's a hugely expensive strat that invests lots of egss in few baskets. Commanders are sole units and if they get tied up fighting low cost squads they can get obliterated.

[EvilKillaruna]

@DoomBringer: what is the problem? I don't see and I don't have greater problems with GK. If you rush propertly and you are quite fast you can spot his fresh squad of 3 members and try to wipe it out. I had problems only when spot 2xGK in TDM.... :P.

GK with overall expensivity, hardcapped to 1x squad, nerfed inquisition... echhh...

Seriously my advice is to play better.

[JVikeing]

I have no idea what that acronym means. Nor do I think that expensivity is a word, but what the hey.

On a more topical note I just 1v1'd a friend of mine with SM mirror. While neither of us are top ten, I think it's fair to say we are above average players. The short version is that a scaling mass of tac squads > GK rush.

The long(er) version: we decided to 1v1 to see which BO came out on top. I did a delayed GK tech (around 7 min mark) while he massed a healthy T1 force complete with armory. My scout harass was better than his, as was my econ and map control. Aside from the regrettable loss of my Force Commander (I got his in the process) I felt I was in pretty good shape when I started teching. I decided to float some req in anticipation of T2 and led his numerically superior forces in a merry little chase around the map. I popped out a GK squad and a chaplain and managed to kill a couple of his marines with shout + PI before he too, hit T2. My GK and Chaplain (along with 2x 5 man tac squads) were suddenly facing a wall of bolters while another of his squads (with remade FC in tow) began dismantling my outer LPs. At this point the game went downhill and I desperately try to play catchup. I lose. I cry. I forget to save the replay and cry some more.

I really don't have anything to add beyond that. Just thought I'd share that there are worse things than a GK rush. So, um, in case you weren't "wow'd" by my eloquence, here's a dancing elephant: :elephant:

[DoomBringer]

Evil Killaruna what ever that meens, If i gave you my advise ill get a warning, anyway i dont give shit any more relic will ever do something about it or they wont. There are plenty of other clowns crying imba and buff the hell out of this nerf this, imperial guard are weak "tears". So i think its pretty obvious what my problem is i think greyknights come out to early and i think you are @ #^&()()_ed

Banned or a warning, i wish relic fixed things as quick as the moderators gave out warnings!

[Dux]

GK tech is easy to defeat for IG. Take map control in Tier 1, eco boom, scale your Guardsmen in Tier 2, and proceed to walk all over the SM player. I'm elated when I get matched up with a GK-teching nooblet. As JVikeing put it, "there are worse things than a GK rush." Much worse.

Oh, and here's a replay to show you what I mean: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=144263

[DoomBringer]

Whats worse

[Dux]

Anything that effectively employs skill instead of relying on a cheap trick.

Fast-tech to GK is only a challenge if you don't know how to counter it. Skilled conventional play, using a variety of units, will require you to outplay your opponent in order to win.

[DoomBringer]

What is the most powerful unit in tier2? GK warpspider zerks

[Dux]

So what?

[DoomBringer]

They are in the top 3 most powerful tier 2 units yet they r the first to apair.

[Dux]

Yes, but they're expensive and hardcapped at one squad. It's not too difficult to overpower them. It's even easier when your opponent is focused on getting them right away, giving you free map control.

There's no imbalance here. You just don't know how to deal with a quick tech. Once you figure it out, you'll say, "Well, that was easy."

If you want help, send me a replay. This will allow me to see exactly where you're struggling.

[DoomBringer]

What happen was he went scout harrass, and i went rap harass, he desrupted my cultus
so i sent them over the other side of the map to cap and set up a base, had a eco of about 60, while he was harassing me my raps destroyed a power plant and deccapped all his points, i had a CL he desroyed a lp, he had no eco and 3 scout teams. I had cult raps and lord i teched to tier 2, and shortly after greyknights come out they brock my raps and the lord was taking major damage i had to retreat because i was re building my eco. His eco was shit but mine was a bit better, i couldnt hold them off they just tilted the scale.

[Dux]

A replay would be a lot more useful, but here are some things to consider for now.

You saw that he had nothing but Scouts running around, so you knew that this was going to be a quick tech. You need to do one of two things in order to counter it:

1. Pump out as much shit as you can in Tier 1 as quickly as possible. Don't tech to Tier 2 at all; you want to capitalize and end this game right now. Spend everything you have on more units and overrun his base in Tier 1.

2. Take map control and LP2 all of your outer points. Tech up and eco boom. Build two Zerk squads and a Sorcerer. Ravage the GKs/Chappy with impunity. Your vastly superior economy will allow you to spend a little time building up before easily beating your opponent with your superior force.

[Fannin]

GK tech is easy to defeat for IG. Take map control in Tier 1, eco boom, scale your Guardsmen in Tier 2, and proceed to walk all over the SM player. I'm elated when I get matched up with a GK-teching nooblet.

I'm not. If he bothers to do it reasonably quickly and bothers to get a chaplain, you're fucked if the map is decently-sized. If he's any good, he WILL tech faster than you will, and you'll be struggling to tech, upgrade, and mass while he walks all over your economy.

What's more, an effective counter relies on either a plasma mass or vehicles. Grey Knights are an incredible pain to IG infantry, so the plasma mass is going to be hard to do. But, if you go vehicles and he bothers to bring a rocket squad or two along, you're in a world of hurt.

Executed guardsmen are probably your best bet.

[EvilKillaruna]

and i think you are @ #^&()()_ed

best wishes for you too.

I wanted to help you but I see you don't want to talk about it in other language than this know from online lobby...

CL + raps + cultist > 1x GK.

[Dux]

Fannin, check my replay. I haven't lost to a single GK tech in 1.2. Their spell made them a serious problem in 1.11, but it's really easy now.

GK are still a pain in the ass when they're used in conjunction with a larger force -- sometimes it seems like they're impossible to kill -- but the quickness in which they can come out isn't the problem. GK Tech is an ineffective strategy if you know how to counter it.

[DoomBringer]

Yeah i no what your saying, but both our ecos were a mess, if i played again i wouldnt have teched, but i didnt wont to be behind the 8 ball if you no what im saying, i new he was going GK.

[Dux]

Right, well you have to commit to a decision. If you think you can finish him off in Tier 1, go for it -- spend everything you've got on increasing the size of your army, and never stop attacking. If you don't think you can finish him off in Tier 1, fall back, fortify, and tech up.

[DoomBringer]

Evil, yeah sorry im very compititve dont like loosing, making a comment about my skill level will set me of every time, i did get warned LOL

Yeah Dux i no that your right i should have massed troops, but i still think its very simular to zerc 1.1 rush.

[EvilKillaruna]

I don't wanted to harm your skills.. If my speaking sounds like laughting from you, my apologize.

To stick with topic... I still think GK is not a great problem but I'm Tau. If you grab advantage with raptors and CL + cultists and you KNEW that he will pop out GK soon, have you tried to reach Sorc/Zerks? [EDIT] Or if your eco was too weak to jump into T2, what about tacs? one squad with 6 members combined with melee-units can be very useful here I think.

And when you faced with GK, have you tried to make him focused on CL and then attack him with Raptors. Maybe sacrificed his hp you could be able to take them down? During attack on his base have you tried to take down all his gens? GK without gens = no reinforce, no future GK.

[DoomBringer]

Eco was joke i was dieing to get sorc+zercs, GK make short work of hQs 90dps is not to bad. He had a gen and a lp that was it i had 2 lps, 2 gens it was a funny game i was just sour because i should have won.

[EvilKillaruna]

Really I think you should have won. Replay could be core here and If you provide it, I should be able to advice you better. For GK really SM without gens = naked SM. Only problem was with this poped out GK squad then. And remember that Raptors is hunting/pursuit unit. If GK will focus on them, then you lost entire squad.

[DoomBringer]

I had never really had a major problem with GK but in saying that i always had a sorc+zercs+chains to deal with it, just think it wouldnt hurt if they needed an armoury or artifact. Anyways back to the real world got work tomorrow going to bed catch ya!

[MegaTheOne]

try csm mass with heavy bolters

if you get 3 heavy bolter squad by time he got GK you pretty much win

[Altaire]

Yeah, t1 army upgraded and lot's of 'em and he's base getting raped would probally let you win.

[Troubleshooter]

@Dux: I commented on your anti-gk build/strat, the quick and dirty analysis : If you get map control, you need to LP it to hold it. LP's cost req and time, slowing your tech. GKs hit by 3:20, and are at full strength shortly thereafter. The will take your econ back one LP at a time while the SM goes right on to tier 3.

Now, your build has the most promise against GK tech, but its also a death sentence if you get scout harrassed into tac mass. Sorry, its still an all or nothing situation, you are just hoping to get lucky with your BO.

If the other guy is playing random, you have to scout him or you dont know whats comming, and since IG have no scouts, that means CS harrass. CS harrass w/o GM support is expensive in its own right, and if he GK techs, you die.

I am not making this shit up... its not about if GK's can be countered, it about the feasablity of the counter in a typical IG build sequence.

@the rest of ya: Sorry if this arguement is too IG centric... but the fact remains that Relic is not even looking at IG design, and buffing IG to counter GK would most certainly make IG infantry OMG uber.

IMO GK's are not IMBA, they are a great unit design, they just come out a tad too soon.

As for the sacred artifact, by needing it, you slow down GK build time, and then their reinforce time, and you have to protect your temple, builders, and artifact longer... so the economic incentives are there to build more of something to ensure that GK tech is not a suicide pact. It works great for Chaos, the same principal works here.

[Ruonim]

Well you wont kill gk in melee. If he had fast teched to them and you tuskck in t1. Becouse rnaged stance. When you come pi on grey knights. And gg wiped out mass.

[SubakuGaara]

simplest thing is just to nerf them and make bionics and maybe even target finders scale them back up. but imo, they are fine. zerks handle them, they can be shot with HBs, and certainly a defiler can nullify their presence. So chaos has no complaints.

requiring the sacred artifact though if lousy cause sacred artifact isn't very good. its not the same as chaos where sac circle hold critical spell (chains of torment) and holds only form of t2 av. Sacred artifact for Sm is really a luxury not a requirement, so just keep it that way cause I bet a lot of SM players would be hella pissed if they had to build both the machine pit and the artifact in t2 just to get by.

[Altaire]

Why would they need to build the machine pit too? They can choose one of them.

[Enochian]

You mean space marines always loose. Berzerker rush still works just as well against marines.

[SubakuGaara]

Sm right now in general goes machine pit instead of sacred artifact. WHy? Machine pit gives access to all those great vehicles while the artifact is merely access to a libby, a few apoths, and some upgrades. They'd be hella pissed if they had to spend on something not really useful.

Zerkers still work just fine for chaos v SM. What really changes in the csm v sm matchup from game to game is opening play, be it 1x rap harass, 2x rap harass, csm build, cult build, etc. T2 is usually about the same though and since zerks=gks and I get all the zerks I want while gks are capped at 1, I have no problem with gks. If IG has a problem, maybe its IG that needs fixing, thus my suggestion with a spell to help handle those units that nuke ig GMs into oblivion.

[War-Reborn]

there's one big barrier to just straight tecking to GK an thats the sm tier 1, if you don't invest any money in your scouts or build tac marines how are you ever going to get out of tier 1 alive? an if you do upgrade or invest in tacs then it's hardly a rush anymore.

building 2 or 3 scouts a barracks/power gen an hitting tier 2 straight to get GK as soon as you can, leaves you very vunrable

[Chris]

Sm right now in general goes machine pit instead of sacred artifact.

Maybe vs chaos because tacs can't really fight zerkers cost effectively. However vs most other races 3+ tac squads with apoths and/or heroes is much more flexible than any vehicle option in tier 2. As an IG player the only SM vehicle I see in tier 2 in the rhino which is used to trasport formentioned tacs, then the only vehicles I'll see after that are preds in tier 3/4 followed by the landraider.

[Azmodael]

That's because you got Sents and Dreads are a real powersink. As an Eldar I find GK extremely annoying and hard to kill. I have a replay here somewhere of a squad of GK with a chaplain attached chasing dancing WS squad that is taking fire from 2 LP's simutaneously and 3 Flachons with starcannons. Man they lasted soooo long, took me more then a minute to bring them down. SM teches fast so it's a good idea to make them requite the artefact. I really can't imagene how races like IG and Ork manage against GK's. One haloucost and GG gadsmen or so it seems ;)

[SubakuGaara]

I still think the simple thing is to nerf their and scale them with the hp ugrade that affects tac. Either that or let psi inq start half charged like the vespid shred

[EvilKillaruna]

half charged like the vespid shred

O rly? o,O

AFAIK my shred is reworked, not half charged. :p

[Gostface14]

or push them up a teir...maybe give them a few buffs to compensate

[SubakuGaara]

my mistake. I meant the eldar bonesingers teleport

[MoschBoy]

give GK morale - with the possibility of having a no-morale upgrade or something; their impact on the battlefield is so huge that i see only GK rushes up to the 1300 in mirrors.

[Sovereign]

I consider it a badge of honor to lose to someone who actually uses rhinos.

But as for GK's, they should probably just pop out with 2 guys instead of 3. That'll slow down the rush somewhat.

As for the tacs vs zerks, tac dance > zerk, even with chaos sorcerer chains. It can be done....

Of course, this is provided that SM didn't kill Chaos in tier 1/2 with scout massing

[DukeRustfield]

I don't really know how to beat GK. Morale immune. High health. Attachable. High ranged, high CC, a non-friendly fire AE that does a bazillion dmg to any infantry for 25 seconds, making it a no-fly zone. They can also ram high powered units every 40 seconds, keeping you on your back for a significant time and/or use it to close the gap to targets quickly.

[EvilKillaruna]

I don't really know how to beat GK

2xDR. I saw it. Madness. :p

[Ruonim]

well dark reaper cost 70/0 and exarch 80/30. And u need upgrade laso. Gk cost 60/30 have powerfull psyker spell and powerfull cc, and mroe hp hwo comes?

[MegaTheOne]

GK is balanced unit leave them alone

[-=Armageddon=-]

It may be true that GK are OK, but something has to be done to tone down the SM a tiny amount more.

[Fannin]

GK is balanced unit leave them alone

This is a superb articulately-spoken and extremely logically-argued point, and I think that it wins the thread.

:wtf:

[Schlamiel]

Are u kidding??


It may be true that GK are OK, but something has to be done to tone down the SM a tiny amount more.



The SM, are fairly balanced as is. Tone them down more and they will surely get run over, by most races, especially Orks, Chaos and Tau (vespid+kroot/FW). GK are tough, especially with Chappy. But they do go down to massed firepower fairly easy. If they get nerfed more, i am afraid the SM need some kind of buff in T1, in my experience SM is struggling to survive T1. And if u compare them to Zerkers, i would have Zerkers any day. They reinforce faster and u can have a lot more of them, it takes a lot to survive a good raptor harass followed by Zerker spam. With nerfed GK, that will be nearly impossible.
The problem is imo, that agasinst GM they can easily take out a squad, but GM are weak, its not an SM issue. If u nerf them they will no longer be efficient against some other races.
And they surely needs to be available in t2, cuz they are not that effective later on. Maybe the Chappy shouldent be alllowed to attach.

[nieblaashx]

I only have problem with their ranged dps + theyr mighty slaughtering spell + chaplain.

They are used as big damage soakers that protect your tac mass+HB from being tied up or focused fire at, cause they are very good at melee and can cast that powerfull spell that forces you to move away.

I think if the spell was a research they would be OK for their cost... and wouldnt be so powerful at the beginning..

And please excuse my bad english....

[Saltoren]

Grey Knights are amongs the most balanced unit of the game.

The PI was nerfed(in 1.1 it used to clean the battlefield from GM,Rangers,Guardians,Sluggas in 3 seconds or so).
Now it doesn't and you can quickly escape from it.
Range damage was nerfed.

The combo GK+Chaplain becomes popular and a real threat to others. It can be a pain in the ass.

But it's T2 and if you play well on the beginning they couldn't even have a chance to appear(they need at least 2 gens for proper use).

And one thing ... it's only ONE squad.

[Fannin]

One squad of berserkers w/ sorc was plenty to fuck your world up in 1.1, and the GK/chappy combination is basically the same thing (a bit worse, actually).

Since zerkers were bumped to after the summoning circle, I see no reason why GKs shouldn't be simmilarly moved to after the Sacred Artifact.

[MegaTheOne]

i still see pretty fast zerk rush
and GKs are capped at 1 for a reason

hm i am not sure about this, thats why i am asking but.. are COWed banshees and nobs an issue? (i mean in tier 2 what is their dmg compared to zerks and Gks? )

[Saltoren]

Since zerkers were bumped to after the summoning circle, I see no reason why GKs shouldn't be simmilarly moved to after the Sacred Artifact.

The Summoning Circle is a must have building for chaos. Sacred Artifact is an option. Spending 125 req just for GK's to appear seems odd.

[Gostface14]

GK, librarian, and all the upgrades for your commanders...dont avoid those. a lot of those abilites are game turners. it sounds completly fair...you guys just dont want to lose your imba GK. a commander squad in teir 2 that beats everything short of a spammed army is insane. especially when you can tech as fast as SM. just give them a slight buff then send them to artifact.

[EvilKillaruna]

just give them a slight buff

For example..?

[Gostface14]

increase in health by about 10%...keep PI the same because its power will match its new requirments

[Saltoren]

GK, librarian, and all the upgrades for your commanders...dont avoid those. a lot of those abilites are game turners. it sounds completly fair...you guys just dont want to lose your imba GK

I said SA is an option. Summonig Circle except Zerks has Horrors, ups for PSM, ups for commanders.
With GK's moved after the SA there will be another combo GK's+Librarian(PI+smite) at once.

In 1.1 version of the game no1 was complaining about fast GK's.Now it seems to be a problem.

[Gostface14]

actually i remember a few rants about it but there werent that many because it was always fast tech to LS then pwn everything.

and who cares if its librarian plus GK? its like now but this time you have to worry about dieing 5 min into the game.

[Saltoren]

and who cares if its librarian plus GK? its like now but this time you have to worry about dieing 5 min into the game.

Which race?

[Gostface14]

every...not literally losing but at the point where your gonna lose. they rush you, unless your all set up and ready for them they pwn you. and sometimes not even then.

[Fannin]

COWed banshees and nobs

COWshees and Nobs are good units, no mistake about it, but I don't have near the trouble with them that I do with GKs or zerkers.

I never see nobs till after I have vehicles, so they're easier, and COWshees means that the Eldar player either invested in tier 1 shees or spent the beginning of his tier 2 grabbing shees and the upgrade, both of which makes IG's job up till that point worlds easier.

[Schlamiel]

a lot of those abilites are game turners. it sounds completly fair...you guys just dont want to lose your imba GK.



hmm excuse me? are u for real?
The abilities u are talking about are T2.5 and at that time they are essential, if u want to stay alive as a marine, especially since u probably have to postpone, either Machine Cult or upgrades for the tacsquads to get the GKs first thing in T2.5. And keeping our IMBA GK...WTF kinda argument is that?? And since this comes from the guy who defends Necrons against, every single nec OP issues, no matter how commonly accepted they are, and have been doing so since 1.1. Hard to take seriously.




every...not literally losing but at the point where your gonna lose. they rush you, unless your all set up and ready for them they pwn you. and sometimes not even then.


This is only true if SM fast techs to this, and if he does he is completly vulnerable in T1, and will get killed by every single player who scouts him out or rushes him. It could be the Vespid rush, Scouts rush, Guardian rush or the raptor harass, which could turn deadly if u leave ur self that open in T1. All of the, above mentioned, will kill of the sm player, if he hasent got a decent defensive force and good micro. Even Necs can have NW squads in ur Base or NL followed by NW squads, before GKs are out. So claiming that SM fast teching to GK are absolutely IMBA tactic, is simply not true. Its only true if u leave the SM player completly unchecked in T1. Any decent player will take advantage of a completly undefended SM in T1. So against most races it would be suicide. Necs are teh only who i can see could have a probklem wit this, but its not an intsant win button, at all. The GK were over the top in 1.1, but so many tactcis where OP in 1.1 and entire race, where OPed back then.

[Ruonim]

Excuse me. Did you told that sm got weak t1 . LOL. Snipers that instant pwn near anything in t1 are what? Say, smgot near bigest damage and cheapest lp1+lp2, great turrets. Tacs are better than chaos equilivent,. Do we play same game?

[Energizer Bunny]

For most players Chaos T1>SM T1. If you can micro large numbers of scout squads well you can pwn Chaos, but otherwise decent Rap harass is more than good enough.

[Ruonim]

turret > raptors, dance aroufd turrets with snipers. GG no re for chaos. How hard is to micro 3 snieprs vs 1 raptor ><

[Schlamiel]

i guess we dont, Scout snipers are good, no doubt about it. But they are very expensive, and u have to surprise ur opponnent with it. Besides it slows ur tech considerably. Tacs are an ok T1 one unit, but also very expensive, and gets pwned by Chaos raps. The best thing about tacs is that they scale so very well. But at the outset, they are imo not a particularly strong unit. And most of the time u need at least one preferably two in T1 and thats 2x190 req.

And turrets in T1, thats most of the time an all or nothin gamble, besides if u let ur raptors get dragged around a turret, u deserve to get them killed. Hint :arrow: go kill his builders or decap.

[Ruonim]

Cahos raptors cost 20% mroe than tacs. SO hwo they are epxensive?

[Schlamiel]

Chaos raps own tacs, plus got jump, in T1, so i guess they have to cost more. Besides lets get back on topic.

[Micro102]

hmm excuse me? are u for real?
The abilities u are talking about are T2.5 and at that time they are essential, if u want to stay alive as a marine, especially since u probably have to postpone, either Machine Cult or upgrades for the tacsquads to get the GKs first thing in T2.5. And keeping our IMBA GK...WTF kinda argument is that?? And since this comes from the guy who defends Necrons against, every single nec OP issues, no matter how commonly accepted they are, and have been doing so since 1.1. Hard to take seriously.

giving your entire army a damage boost when they already have the most efficient inf in the game is not nessicary. tacs when upgraded with HW can take down anything of equal cost. being able to instantly drian a squad or commanders morale is quite effective as well....i dont see these much and i still lose to SM.

and those necron OP issues are commonly acepted among necron haters who dont have replays of necrons owning other races liek they claim or even good theory craft. they act like necrons tech faster and have more guys wehn they feild the least amount of guys and are the slowest techers.

[Schlamiel]

So ur saying that the upgrades arent necessary?? thats about the same as saying necs dont need disruption fields. Its all about scaling your army into later tiers.

And SM the best inf? i dont get it, in T1, T2, T3? what do u mean. They are versatile, but not the best at everything, for sure.




and those necron OP issues are commonly acepted among necron haters who dont have replays of necrons owning other races liek they claim or even good theory craft. they act like necrons tech faster and have more guys wehn they feild the least amount of guys and are the slowest techers.



This i wont even dignify with an answer, take a look at the threads about necs, maybe everyones a nec hater?? wake up.

And can we plz get back on topic.

[SubakuGaara]

Gks are fine. Instead, work on learning how to tech and get the units you know can fight them out. Every race has something to counter heavy melee units. Last patch GKs were imba cause they could switch from heavy melee to heavy ranged in an instant. Now with the range nerf, they are melee pretty much all the time. So get out your melee defense and you should be fine.

[Micro102]

@Schlamiel: only the upgrades that give the SM commanders extra abilities. never see them used so they must not have been bought, and still lose to SM. dont compare a commander ability upgrade to a common inf scale upgrade.

tacs are the strongest because they are the most versitile. they can be customized to beat anything

and i see the same ppl on all posts about necrons. always with the useless posts like
" take your 2 wraiths and tie up their FW and dont worry about kroot becuase the FO will be there to break them" that would be fine if it wasnt for the fact that the FW wont be anywhere near the FO leaving the wraiths completly vunerable.

[Cyberbob]

they can be customized to beat anything

But once customised, there's no going back - they're stuck with their HW choices. If, say, you see a bunch of rocket Tac squads, you could simply switch to infantry. If you see HB or plasma Tacs, build vehicles. It's not very hard, you know.

[MoschBoy]

Gks are fine. Instead, work on learning how to tech and get the units you know can fight them out. Every race has something to counter heavy melee units. Last patch GKs were imba cause they could switch from heavy melee to heavy ranged in an instant. Now with the range nerf, they are melee pretty much all the time. So get out your melee defense and you should be fine.

since i fool around with GK lately myself - i usually keep them on ranged. their ranged dmg, even if nerfed, is nothing to toy around with - they can arrive quite early, and against the oppostion they are facing when coming out, they are pwnage - both in cc and ranged. add good old ivan and they are the strongest tier 2 cc unit - and one of the better ranged ones.

i really cant see how any race could counter them at the point they arrive with infantry alone - provided the SM player is not stupid enough to let himself be danced near building guns or be ganged up shortly after they come out.

atm, i see them a bit too strong - except against orks, chaos and other SM and necrons(orks can beat them -if played smartly- relatively easy; chaos tech is unholy, and since their tier 3 is so damn fast, GK are your only realistic counter to PSM /oblits; and necrons.... they deserve what they get anyway).

[Micro102]

But once customised, there's no going back - they're stuck with their HW choices. If, say, you see a bunch of rocket Tac squads, you could simply switch to infantry. If you see HB or plasma Tacs, build vehicles. It's not very hard, you know.
that one victory may be all you need. when you beat their army with your tacs you can push foward and cause more damage to there economy. the first battles usually decide the course of the game. if you dont have enough guys to continue the assult then that means there is plenty of cap for you to build another army while whatever you have left can go an stall/mess with them

[Cyberbob]

that one victory may be all you need

If you have a bunch of vehicles about (for example), and you see a couple of rocket Tac squads, the smart thing to do would be to retreat. Don't let them have that first victory - stall them until you can get some infantry mass going. Considering the length of rockets' setup times, that shouldn't be too hard.

[Micro102]

ok we are going way off topic here lets stick to GK....but ppl dont *switch* to inf...veh and inf are always mixed

[Cyberbob]

veh and inf are always mixed

That's simply not true. It's just not.

[dreddnott]

Most Necron players don't use vehicles en masse...while on the other side of the coin, some IG players spam lots of Chimeras/Hellhounds/etc., it depends on the race and the player. I can easily find myself winning games without ever using a vehicle, especially in automatch. You better believe I'm going to build a walker if I'm teched up enough and the enemy has an infantry mass, and that I'll bug out with my vehicles and build melee infantry if the enemy has lots of anti-vehicle weaponry. I believe in hard counters, and they can be pretty scary.

Has somebody compiled a set of Dark Crusade replays illustrating whether Grey Knights are balanced or not? I'm curious if there is hard data.

[Azmodael]

Well in my 4th game with the Imperial Guard I found fast teching to GK scaringly IMBA. Their psyhic ability broke my both squads and even when they regrouped they did like 0 damage to the GK's. Using 2 full squads of GM and a full CS (commie and priest) I was unable to kill them and they were permanently danced. If the map wasn't bloody hell for me to arrive very early and destroy his 2 gens it would have been a GG. I personally don't like their psyhic ability, the SM is a race of humans after all and in DC they have the most phyhic abilities of all races.

[MoschBoy]

I personally don't like their psyhic ability, the SM is a race of humans after all and in DC they have the most phyhic abilities of all races.
pray they dont make GK like in the fluff. and SM are no "race". and GK are in fact HIGHLY psychic. so dont come with fluff reasons - balance is far better ^^.

[Cyberbob]

the SM is a race of humans after all

What's that got to do with anything? Plenty of humans in W40K have psychic abilities.


in DC they have the most phyhic abilities of all races.

That's not true. SM have... 4 or 5 (5 if Chappy's shout counts, 4 if it doesn't)? The Farseer alone possesses 5 (counting Fortune). Then you have Warlocks' Entanglement, Embolden and (arguably) Conceal - making for a total of 6 at least, and 8 at most.

[Azmodael]

Higher then Eldar and Chaos?

Warlock;s Embolder works pretty similar to sergeant regroup so lets exclude, SM heroes got inspiring aura, chappy shout, Librarian got 4 spells, GK's ability so a total of 7

The FS (single unit) got 5 with aura + entangle + conceal for a total of 7.

That's all about the ancient relying heavily on psyhic powers eldar race. Don't get me wrong,, balance>fluff but I still think that SM should be the least "psyhic" of the three.

[phoenixzs]

I am an Ig player and I strongly disagree that Gk should be moved up to tier 3.

Yes they cause me pain but that doesnt me they are imba.
What I find a problem is that their physical inqusition comes very early with it.It slaughters Ig and does considerable high damage to other units.

My suggestion would be that it should require a research preferably in sacred artifact that takes long(like the build time of a HWTs) and takes good amount of energy.

Without them they will still be a good fighting force when they arrive but will gain full power when sacred artifact is up.

But no to another SM tier 3 unit.I want actually to "see" some different units while I play 1v1.

[Azmodael]

Making them require the Sacred artefact is doesn't actually mean moving them to t3. Nevertheless even with their ranged DPS reduced with patch I still feel like fighting a t3 unit in t2. Even the allmighthated WS come t2,5.

[Blakey85]

I just think that psychic inquesition needs to be added to the charge ability research. Like a GK powers pack. Don't move it back a tier..the research time should be enough. Maybe some increase of the research cost would be nice too.

And WS come in groups of 3,rather then 1. I'm pretty darn sure they out damge GK by a fair amount aswell. Only thing going for them is their charge ability.

[MoschBoy]

5 if Chappy's shout counts, 4 if it doesn't
since chaplains are no psychers, no it doesnt count as psychic power.

phoenixzs has a real good idea - GK are strong without PI, however, you get this for a quite high price, so they are fine. make PI a research like phoenix suggested - however, it has to become a bit stronger then (just a bit).

[War-Reborn]

If a seperate research for PI is needed it doe'snt have to be long, just moving it to the sacred artifact is basically moving it up half a tier.

Grey knights become hugely formidable only when combined with the chaplin, which does create a very powerful squad, that is tough to take down, in order to get a GK chappy combo you need 620/230, thats a very big investment to make, for those that are making this argument on the basis of fighting against SM, i suggest you go out an play some auto as SM an see how easy it is to get this so called uber Pwnage in real life, if GK are overpowered it's by a small margin, not by the massive amounts some are claming here

[Ruonim]

full t1 fw, cost 420/0. And gk own 3 squads of them. Yep gk are up hahahaha

[MoschBoy]

i find it actually very easy to get GK - it may cost much, but it pays off by all means if used right. and in getting them ou dont even deny yourself too much of an earlygame.

[magicalcarpet]

IMO they're only a problem with Charlie.

Maybe if he was moved to Sacred Artifact.. or buildable after Artifact / Machine Pit.. or something.

[TheHolyDarkness]

Vehicles. 'Nuff said.

One Anti infantry vehicle can screw up the GKs day imho. They can harass, sure, but with the power and requisition investement made by such a BO, its doubtful he'll manage to actually afford a vehicle before you do. All it takes is one walker or something to show up and it screws them over.


(and sorry if this point has been made already. Didn't read the entire topic yet)
~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[MoschBoy]

actually the GK + support you have by the time the enemy can get vehicles can handle 2, maybe 3 vehicles on their own quite nice (typically you will have a full GK squad, ivan, FC, 1-2 tacs and decent eco);

from my experience with countering GK builds with SM myself, you need at least 3 LS to really hurt them fast enough to screw the SM.

dont underestimate this build - i can get FC in tier 1, 3 scout squads, 1-2 tac squads and a decent eco (3- 4 LP, 2 generators - 1 while tier 2 is researched) when i go for a GK tech. if i upgrade 1 LP to LP2, ivan is delayed for about 15 sec - but thats it. so, when GK come out, you will have to face the following army: 1 FC, 1 Chaplain, 1 GK squad (almost maxed out), 1-2 tac squads (depending on if you build an armory or not), 3 scouts and a LP2.
GK basically make tier 1 infantry useless, FC an chappy add to AI punch, and tacs can get missilies very soon to counter vehicles.

[Spekkio]

If a person quick-techs to GK, it's likely that they won't win the game for them. However, in a close fight, popping out a GK squad at the onset of t2 could very well make or break the game for the SM player.

[Fannin]

As it's been said, it's really not the GKs themselves or the chaplain himself but rather the combination.

[Archraven]

I think requiring the artifact would be a great solution.

[SubakuGaara]

Dudes. They are fine. Maybe have psi inq start at half charge but other than that they are ok.

[Fannin]

I can just as easily make the assertion that the chappy GK combo is not fine, SG :p

[SubakuGaara]

well perhaps the question to ask is which races are getting insta owned by gks? whuch races don't have a good counter?

[TheHolyDarkness]

As Eldar I fear not the GK combo at all. Solution is to simply do the DR BO, and as a policy against SM, forgo the typical Listening Post Harrasement and go straight for the generators. I've also seen a replay of an IG player performing the same thing using 2 GMs and what was a 2x Priest CS IIRC, rushing the SM base and refusing to back down until that generator was dead, even as the GKs arrived on the scene.

The loss of one generator is all it takes to cripple any GK build order. Typically they'll be just arriving as you show up true, but rushed properly, not in time to save one of their *incredibly vurnerable and precious* plasma generators, a setback denying them of both reenforcements and usually the chaplain/libarian as well.

Follow through with the game accordingly, and it should all start going downhill for SMs from there.

And this is why I don't believe requiring the Artifact would be a great idea, as it would deny the SMs any kind of GK BO at all given that the rush has begun as the Artifact is still going up. Suddenly they would become incredibly useless and rare to see in game.

The power generator risk to the GK BO economy is enough of a vurnerability to satisfy me.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[Fannin]

Well, naturally enough, IG don't have a good counter to the chappy/gk combo. Either one of them alone isn't too big a deal; executed guardsmen can handle either quite easily.

It's true that the SM player opens up his generators to harassment, but I've killed gens before with my CS while he techs without actually stopping the ensuing slaughter.

[The_Guardman]

And this is why I don't believe requiring the Artifact would be a great idea, as it would deny the SMs any kind of GK BO at all given that the rush has begun as the Artifact is still going up.
Why a GK BO should exist in first place?

[Fannin]

haha, I tend to agree that the existence of fast-tech BOs are irritating, but they really aren't too bad.

[Blakey85]

I myself don't find GK to be much of a problem.
I'd love the need for an artifact though..some difference finally.

[Micro102]

the GK combo will gib anyone who doesnt expect it. the SM player can go with tacs instead of the quickest commander squad in the game.

[Blakey85]

The thing about going scouts is that you can fast tech better. Although getting a commander eats your energy. If you get GKs out early then you got some really nice advantage. But if you both at the same tech level,they're not such a big whop.

[DukeRustfield]

This reminds me of the old Zerker tech. And people said then that the way to beat it was vehicles. But GK have more health and do more dmg to vehicles and way more to buildings than Zerkers, though obviously you can only get 1 squad. When you add a commander in, they are very powerful ranged, CC, building and vehicle.

With 6 GK, they can do 90 DPS to light/medium vehicles. That will beat out Chimeras per cost and doesn't even include the Chappy who adds fricken >115 DPS to light.

Unlike Zerkers they can take down buildings on their own and can even set up an AE to keep you off their back. These guys are base T2 you know...

[fs_xyz]

Make a "stone aspect" type research for GK ?
Although I hate that idea... ( Eldar and IG already gave a bad example of that research... )

[Cyberbob]

I'm surprised nobody's suggested a simple build time increase.

[drcole]

I'd be happy if they just couldn't have heroes attached. That is complete bull.. GK and chappy early t2 is nigh uncounterable. Can't kill the GK with aspect warriors, can't kill the chappy with harlies because together they pretty much cover each other's vulnerabilities. GK need to be vulnerable to focus fire - they are just too damn good for cost otherwise.

[Micro102]

how about an armour decrease when a commander is attached? sort of like they are over confident

[JVikeing]

Build time increase... "grey knight quarters research." I agree with Cyberbob. K.I.S.S!

[IRON_EMPEROR]

how about an armour decrease when a commander is attached? sort of like they are over confident


lol interesting. just give them a stone/ and or build time increase

[Fannin]

A stone would work as well, provided it took long enough to research.

[Cyberbob]

The stone would have to be super cheap, however. Grey Knights - particularly when you factor the Chaplain in, too - cost a bucketload already.

[Blakey85]

Yeah. Just long research.

[The_Guardman]

Everything but building the Artifact, hu? Seem like everyone here never build it.

A stone would be an harsher requirement than the sacred artifact. Think about it, it will stop your unit production building for X + GK buildtime... in the middle you have to play with armoury and leftover T1 units. And still will mantain the AssMarines as secondary unit, if builded at all. Having the GKs requiring the Artifact, instead, make them optional, but let you free to build tacmass and if CC is needed you still have the Assaults.

I continue to wonder why the DC team picked, among the many possibility, the GK as new unit. Ok, they're cool, but they are not part of a SM chapter and superimpose with the Assaults in role.
With the Artifact requirement the Assaults will return to theire mainstream CC role SM unit, and delay at the same time the GKs.

[Blakey85]

You don't see artifacts much? That's odd...i actully see quite a number of people use them. Going tri hero and mass infantry. Needing the artifact just screws over people who don't go tri heroes infantry build. They really don't need it. I don't think it's a good idea.

[The_Guardman]

Beside the fact that the no-artifact mean going machine pit, and as such deep striking dreadnought mass in T3, I simply see the artifact requirement as more logical.
By using infantry only, you also are making your army more vulnerable to AI weapons and forgoing to use your full pop potential.

Anyway, proposing to use Artifact OR Machine pit as requirement would fix your point of wiew. But IMHO this would make the GK+rhino/ dread build a lot appealing (and efficent), beside the huge power investment needed.

EDIT:
Truly I do not know why going full infantry would be good. Going for the Machine Pit requirement option sound to me like "I wish to have GKs no matter what". This indicate the GKs as OP unit anyway.
Beside this, keep in mind that other armies (Tau, IG, CSM) have similar tactical choices. IG can go T1 Tactica build, but by doing it they practically negate the chance to go to T2 due to the huge power drainage this generate. CSM can go for Machine Pit first, and as such they skip both the AV and the Zerkers. Tau are the less affected, becouse the 2 paths are -supposedly- balanced.

[SubakuGaara]

Yeah, gks come out too early. Currently a get out of jail free card. If the SM has nothing and only one lp, he can just kick out some gks and a chappy and take back all the ground. Make em need machine pit or sacred artifact. Or nerf hp o rnerf damage and rescale it with a cheap upgrade. Its just a matter of the timing. Too strong when they first come out especially since the chappy comes out at the same time with them.

[nichtganz]

the real problem is their effectiveness against vehicles, they can eat defilers for lunch :bleh: .

in otherwords, a heavy nerf v.s vehicles.

[SubakuGaara]

vehicles is not a problem. GKs come out before machines.

machnes require t2+machine pit
GKs require just t2.
Chappy requires just t2.
Combination is cheapy.

I just lost a game on emerald river (granted its a stupid map) vs an SM player. I rid him of every point in the game except the one inhis base and captured almost everything. He had no choice but to tech. Got one GK squad out and attached a chappy and the game was over. CSMs with HBs? Nothing. Raps? Nothing. Zerker? Comes out too late. Sorc? Can't do anything alone. I was very annoyed. Lost a lot of points very quickly and eventually lost the game.

[nichtganz]

the fact that they can kill a walker is very disturbing to be honest.

[SubakuGaara]

lots of ranged units that aren't av speciliasts can kill walkers. Tacs with plasma will bring them down too. Besides, most of the damage to the walker comes from the chappys pistol which I believe does like 50 or 60 dps. Add that to the meager dps from each grey knight, and you will have a dead walker. to be efficient at AV the dps dealt should be in the 100+ area, and the chappy alone will get you half way there with his pistol.

Also, the defiler isn't the toughest of all the walkers anyway. Pathing issues slow its attack and it's hp isn't exactly over the top (though defilers are still a solid unit)

[nichtganz]

match up a single squad v.s a defiler, your defiler will die very very quickly. Same goes with dreadnought's, and destroyers.

[Fixer]

GKs on their own cannot kill walkers effectively. The chaplain attached to the squad is doing roughly the same DPS to vehicle_med as the squad of grey knights.

This is partially due to the weapon bug which means that the power sword and crozius arcanum are improperly switched with the weapon upgrade meaning that he gets his 'buff' without the need of an armory.

Even then, a defiler will be doing either 130dps to the gray knights in melee or 70dps to the chaplain (who has pretty low health) if a squad of GKs does kill a defiler in melee, it's going to be at pretty high cost, and begs the question 'where the hell was the squad of beserkers hitting them at the same time?'

[nichtganz]

Im saying that its an IMBA unit...... it shouldnt be able to that. Go and test it with a friend its really quite silly , it really sucks for IG players since their vehicles just get raped by GK's. (except of course heavy vehicles...all heavy vehicles)

[Cyberbob]

So then the problem, as stated earlier in the thread, is with the specific IG-SM matchup.

Nerfing GKs will affect every SM matchup - making the currently balanced ones imbalanced.

Why not improve the weak race rather than nerfing the balanced one?

[nichtganz]

as i said its a matter of SM op'dness something sm's have been for a very very very long time. The gk's are sickening as they can take down in seconds the only good AV the IG have, the sent. The HW' lascannons have weird damage values and seem to be worthless next to the sentinel.

[Fixer]

Wait, how do the grey knights even stay in combat with a sentinal?
Additionally, GK damage to vehicles is 15dps vs all armor types, so a sentinal's armor low is no easier to break than nomal vehicle armor. Furious charge certainly wont get them there as it's vs demons and infantry only.

Nichtganz, I think the problem here is that you are sitting your vehicles in close combat waiting for them to die and then cursing GKs for their imbaness. If the grey knights are chasing your sentinals, which they should never catch without the aid of an expensive skull probe, they are not doing any damage to the rest of your army.

You should easilly have counters by then.

Grey Knights melee damage is not an issue vs guard. It's their PI power that hurts them.

[nichtganz]

I've never personally lost a vehicle to a GK however ive test played with some friends, they really do destroy vehicles quickly.

Edit: you are looking at everything from the wrong direction you are making the assumption that everyone knows how to play the game and support units. if someone doesnt they are going to be losing a vehicle to the GK's. But the fact that you can counter a vehicle in such a silly way is an imbalance espically in a game of hardbalances. AV v.s V AI v.s I .

[Blakey85]

....His point was that they ain't good agianst vehicles.

[nichtganz]

He must being playing another game, because they are VERY effective against vehicles. if a vehicle strays out to far it is guranteed to get eaten by a GK squad, although heavy vehicles really dotn have this problem.

[peturabo]

Move them to the sacred artifact imho.

[Fixer]

Knowing how to play the game should really be a pre-requisite before entering the balance forums... besides one game where it suprises somone, where is this going to be an issue?

Additionally, an upgraded ASM squad does 70dps to vehicle_med
A full squad of Beserkers do 80.192DPS to vehicle_med
A squad of Tier 2 CoW banshees does 103dps to vehicle_med
A squad of Nobs with more chopping do 70dps to vehicle_Med
A squad of Flayed ones does 160dps to vehicle_med

Grey Knights do 90dps to vehicle_med

They're not out of line with any other tier 2 infantry.

[Fannin]

A squad of Flayed ones does 160dps to vehicle_med

I have to confess to being suprised by this. A tier 1.5 unit for Necron does over 1.5 times the damage as their closest (tier 2) competitor.


On topic: GKs ought to require the SA for the same reason zerkers require the SC. There really isn't much to add to that, except that GKs are, in my opinion, a much better unit than the later-arriving zerkers.

[SubakuGaara]

yeah. vehicle is fine

gks still come out too fast. get out of jail free card. ridiculous.

[peturabo]

They're not out of line with any other tier 2 infantry.

Yet they come alot earlier.

[Fixer]

But all of those infantry choices are availble before vehicles, and we're discussing the DPS vs vehicles.

And of course Flayed ones come out tier 1.5 and have almost double the DPS :)

[peturabo]

but they are Necrons :p
rerics favoruite next to eldar ofc :)

[Ruonim]

HMm Soul shringe 200/200 cow 100/100.
banshe 200/0 + stone 50/0. Comes a lot later. Cost a lot more to get.. Sure campare these units.

[Fixer]

I'd say put the PI spell into a seperate upgrade at the Sacred artifact, swap the Librarian (he of the long build time) with the chaplain at the artifact as well.

Would help with a few things, firstly marines get a nice detector early tier 2, GKs don't get the healing benefit from the chaplain, and the librarian spell is roughly equivilent to PI. It's also more costly in terms of power making you choose between the two units early.


HMm Soul shringe 200/200 cow 100/100.
banshe 200/0 + stone 50/0. Comes a lot later. Cost a lot more to get.. Sure campare these units.

Okay.
Assault marines
Barracks 250
Armory 175/50
Tier 2 250/105
Bionics 100/50
targeters 100/50
Power sword 50/20
Power fist 50/20
Unit cost 220

That's 945/295 while your cow banshees only cost 650/300, and CoW shees can be further upgraded and still beat ASM in CC! CoW shees also come out earlier in tier 1. Obviously CoW banshees are the most broken unit in the game!

Or perhaps we should just ignore pointless cost comparisons and looking at balance in a vacuum. (and nerf Eldar a little more :) )

GK vehicle damage is a non-issue. The issue with GKs is whether they come out too early and dominate the game through this. From all my experiences in the game they do not, since rushing to them is a foolish strategy that can be beaten easilly by essentially any race with the exception of Imperial Guard, who suffer from the PI spell.

[Fannin]

And then you'd allow for a librarian rush vs IG instead. NOT a solution we'd accept.

[Ruonim]

Okay.
Assault marines
Barracks 250
Armory 175/50
Tier 2 250/105
Bionics 100/50
targeters 100/50
Power sword 50/20 <- not needed
Power fist 50/20 -<- not needed
Unit cost 220 -> 1075/255

Sure
Aspect portal + stone = 150/0
soul shrine 200/200
Cow 100/100
optics 100/50
armor 100/50
unit cost 200 -> 850/400

Well tell me what economy u need to get to 1075/255 and wht to 850/400. And eldar gen cost 30 more req each . Add 1 gen more -> 195 more in total so. 1045/400. Yep eldar need narf ><

Forgot to say that takes loonger to get .

Not to mention that u said than cow shes are t1. Love noobs.

[Fixer]

And then you'd allow for a librarian rush vs IG instead. NOT a solution we'd accept.

Little more than we have right now. Librarian takes an age to build. GKs take 13 seconds, Librarian takes 54. Sacred artifact takes 20 seconds to build with 2 Servitors.

If you put the SA in as a stop gap for GKs they would still appear 20 seconds earlier than a librarian made at the HQ. Also, he's pretty frail so on his own he can be beaten up with a command squad.

Since the issue that guard face is the PI spell coming out earlier combined with the Demo shout, this is a much nicer fix and doesn't screw marines over against other races.

[Micro102]

libraian is worse with GK...know what will happen if you combine the smite with PI?

[Ruonim]

Liberian dont have regen aura, dont slow units. And cost more.

[MegaTheOne]

ok swap chaplain with librarian
fine by me but dont complain when your units get insta killed by PI - smite combo

[Energizer Bunny]

And requires sacred artifact. Even smite and PI won't kill most T2 troops (unless they don't move out of PI and without shout there is no excuse for that.

[Fixer]

and of course, my suggestion (for those too lazy to read back about it and see it :) ) was this:

Swap Libarian's position with Chaplain
Put Psychic Inquistion as an upgrade in the Sacred Artifact.
Wont be able to get that spell combo in my suggestion until after you would normally be able.

[fuggles]

I wonder whether GK should even get attachments, they are a bit different to other marines. That aside, I like the upgrade idea above, or make it LF-esque with you having to hurt things first.

[Fannin]

I would say, though, that I'd rather deal with the librarian's smite than with chappy shout + GKs. Fixer's suggestion wouldn't be as bad as I had originally seemed to think.

[psychodil]

I really like Fixer's suggestion. Gets my vote :spartaaa:

[The_Guardman]

Dunnow. This do not fix the problem of role superimposition between AssMarine and GKs. And just change the attached hero problem from one nasty hero to another.
To me, slowing somehow the GKs so to have a window of usefulness for Assault Marines whould be much better.

[psychodil]

Greyknights on their own arent too much of an imbalance. Strong yes, but they are a hard capped tier 2 unit. Its the attachable chaplain that is buildable simultaneously that is the problem. I believe this change would make the chaplain + GK combo slower and less potent.

[DukeRustfield]

Someone pointed it out already, but Fixer's comparisons of GK to other infantry vs. vehicles ignores the fact those other infantry would have to cost MUCH more and take a LOT longer as well as having more weaknesses. Even basilisks can "dance" Flayed Ones...

[Fixer]

Your comparison fails to take into account the fact that all those unit types are already out by the time the enemy is fielding vehicles, are with the sole exception of FOs, are faster (even nobz, thanks to mob bonus), are not restricted one one single unit and require a fraction of the power cost to re-enforce.

Saying that they are overpowered because they do average melee unit damage to vehicles because they come out when there are no vehicles for this to actually matter to, is stupid.

[DukeRustfield]

Right, they come out before vehicles. So you are fighting them with infantry, which they crush. And if you push for vehicles, they do okay against them as well.

[Micro102]

GK are the earliest commander squad to come out and one of the most powerful (someone get some numbers) and it only gets worse when you add a chaplian. it does leave him weak in teir 1 but if you go with the normal commander in the beggining then you shouldnt have any trouble with harrassment.

[Cyberbob]

GK are the earliest commander squad

You sure about that? I could've sworn the CS was.

Not only that, GKs aren't commanders. :rolleyes:


if you go with the normal commander in the beggining then you shouldnt have any trouble with harrassment.

How so? He's only one guy, after all, and pretty darn easy to tie up or dance.

It's extremely comedic that you're arguing that the FC is capable of holding off harassment by himself, yet you seem to believe the NL (which can teleport, and runs about as fast as the FC) is totally incapable of this seemingly simple task.

[Micro102]

no CS is the main commander, ogryns and karskins are command squads. like seer council or mega armoured nobs.

and all you need to do is protect your gen to make the GK strat work. and yes NL is incapable without LF. of course if you quick tech to it then thats a different story.

[Cyberbob]

ogryns and karskins are command squads. like seer council or mega armoured nobs.

* Cyberbob blinks.

Are you serious?

[Micro102]

yeh...pariahs too

[Cyberbob]

...

Ohh. You're mistaking "command squads" for "elite squads". :)

MANZ and the Seer Council are actually secondary commanders, whereas the other squads you mentioned are not.

[Micro102]

no i see commander squads as squads capped at one...becuase WS are eldar elite but they still have seer council, SM have termies but they still have GK, orks have flash gitz but still ahve MANZ. see what i mean? its like a squad that when at full power is the same as a commander.