Nightmare Shroud: IWIN Button

[BudgetMessiah]

I'm sort of suprised that this hasn't been shouted over and over again on these balance forums. When I checked around for mention of it, I noticed Bavbav talking about ita couple (http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=2366476&postcount=5) of times (http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=2368041&postcount=31), but mostly getting overlooked. So, forgive me if this has been beaten to death, because I missed that.

What I didn't miss was this replay (http://www.bttournaments.com/forum/showpost.php?p=25592&postcount=10) over at Big Time Gaming (http://www.bttournaments.com/), which was a tournament match between GrimAvocado and Santiago. It's the second of a best of three series, with Santi going Necrons. Now, before you read the rest of this, go watch that replay. Go on. Really. Watch it. Pay particular attention to the main action that occurs at 12:45 and 18:11.

Let me first say that I'm far from the level of play that these guys are at (not that this matters, odds are you are too). I've still got a pretty good idea of how things are supposed to work in RTS games, and games in general. And one of the rules in gaming (in case you've never heard and/or you're planning on designing a game) is that moving the other guy's pieces is generally considered cheating. This applies to a great many games: chess, go, 40k Tabletop, BalancedCraft™, heck, Monopoly...you name it. I know I sure haven't played every game out there so my knowledge is certainly not exhaustive and even within my knowledge I know there must be some exceptions (D-Cannons in some editions of 40k TT, I think, could force a player to move his stuff around), but like I said, in general it doesn't happen. If it does it can be considered very, sometimes overwhelmingly powerful (as is the case with those older D-Cannons).

And it's the case here with Nightmare Shroud. You watched the replay, right? That thing's crazy, right? As near as I can figure, there's not a damn thing Avocado could have done there not to get wtfpwnd, and he was doing pretty good at that point. The battle wasn't decided, but to be sure, his army wouldn't have been eaten alive at that moment if not for that one simple click. Santiago forced Avocado's troops to not only all break (which is bad enough), but while broken he was able to force control of them out of GA's hands.

He wasn't even as mean with that ability as he potentially might have been. Here, check it out:

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t103/Budgetmessiah/NLShroud1.jpg

As you can see in this first expertly made illustration, the Necron Lord is at around a 2 o'clock position relative to the bulk of that army. If instead he had teleported to around 7 o'clock...

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t103/Budgetmessiah/NLShroud2.jpg

The death would have certainly been more certain. I'm guessing Santiago wasn't really planning on completely destroying/humiliating GA with this tactic. If you watch the replay the net result, even with a less-than-perfect application of 10 seconds worth of "you run away now" is still a near total slaughter. By the time the eldar regroup, it's too late.

Santiago is also able to make use of this ability a couple of other times in the replay, to similar devastating effect.

So, my question is, "Is this fair?" I know there are units that are immune to morale, but they're relatively few and far between. I also know there are ways to defend yourself in the case of a total morale breakdown, but they too are relatively uncommon, and are all much harder to execute than "click, click, lolololol". They're also, I think, a little harder to deploy in terms of time and cost, and a defense is seldom effective in an RTS if it is more costly than the tactic it is meant to counter.

I think this ability should be changed so that it isn't quite so devastating. I understand it is meant to be powerful, but in the hands of even a mediocre player (don't mistake me, these guys are very good) I think it could be devastating, and defending against it would take far better than average skill.

So that's my rant, feel free to disagree with me. Just remember, that doesn't necessarily mean you're right. ;)

[BudgetMessiah]

I'm not talking about his teleport being unfair. I was talking about one of the gear upgrades he gets called Nightmare Shroud (http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/Necron_Lord#Nightmare_Shroud).

Teleport only came up as an example of how the combination of these abilities could almost always be used to destroy an enemy, with no reasonable way to counter it.

[fs_xyz]

.... The Eldar seem to had a hard time to tech. While the Necron already launched destroyers, no vehicle from Eldar player. And the Eldar player still used Guardians.

Nightmare Shroud comes very late in Necron tech tree. The main cause of the Eldar defeat was not Nightmare Shroud, but unable to produce vehicles. Plus, Eldar doesn't have any easy access to morale recovery.
Necron imba econ is another factor...

Probably the same result can happen to Necron vs Tau matchup with the use of Nightmare Shroud.

[NateIG]

Judging just by that screen shot, the eldar player's biggest problem wasnt the shroud...it going head on against a handful of destroyers with some guardian squads. Quick...let's rant and insert a random necron lord ability here...(OMG the phlyactery made the guardians do no damage to him! OMG the chronometron slowed down the whole army! OMG Solar pulse and guardians couldnt shoot! OMG they were all invisible from the veil!) Any lord ability in that situation looked like it was just insult added to injury; the main problem being the eldar being a tier behind his opponent, and throwing t0 squads against AI vehicles :P. Frankly, the 5 wraiths the cost of that artifact could have bought would probably go further against those guardians and fragons...that or another destroyer and a half on the field.

[blackpaladin05]

Actually it looks like there were 2 squads of Fragons, Nate. So that wasn't a hopeless battle.

I'm not sure about this one yet, as no one's pointed out the other side.

[fuggles]

I shall endeavour to watch the replay later before commenting

[farseer_derek]

well, just from that screenie eldar would have won that battle if no other troops had been added to it and no nl abilities used, a squad of CoW shees > that NW squad and 2 fragon squads > 3 destroyers (one is in the death animation in the second screeine i think), 3 gu squads w/lox > nl possibly even more so if they have mysty or nades (can't see in screenie) eldar wasn't a teir behind opponent they were same teir although a falcon would have guaranteed victory in that skirmish, i suspect it was being produced as well as ws at the time of battle

[kornuletz]

I agree that nightmare shroud is powerful, but i think it is the most expensive ability so it should be worthwhile.

Regarding the game itself, i think GrimAvocado simply got outplayed. He floated in power, got harassed all game by Santiago, and overall played IMO worse than the necron. At the specified times, the armies were relatively equal, so any ability of thbe NL would have tipped the scale prolly.
So i dont really see the balance problem here, at least not in this replay.

[Hello_Moto]

It stands to reason that if you think nightmare shroud is OPed, then what about zerkers' Mark of Khorne ability?

[santiago4ever]

Imo Nightmare shroud is too strong. I'm not all that thrilled about any ability which makes you lose control over your troops, especially not when it can be used to force the enemy to run into your army of otherwise low-range slaughtering machines.

And yes I could have used the ability a bit better :P But iirc I didn't have enough NWs in my base to make it that worthwhile to teleport behind him and force him into it, mostly wanted to get him out of my way so I could take out the banshee's.

The Khorne ability has the same potential for being too strong as it too forces control out of the enemy's hand, but it's harded to get behind your enemy with zerkers to force the enemy to run towards your army.

[DukeRustfield]

Nightmare Shroud is a really crap ability. It's TEN seconds of running away. For most infantry, a single squad of FO is better. Chains of torment is way way better. NS works in an AE. The times I've tried to use it, the enemy just runs off in random directions. Some toward my troops, some not. For a race that is heavy into short range, slow troops, having your enemy flee doesn't help much.

Chron is better if you want to get at them. It affects all units. It comes much earlier. Has a larger area of effect and a quicker cooldown.

I've simply never seen Nightmare Shroud be game winning/breaking. I have seen almost all the other NL powers pwn past what they should, however. 20 seconds of solar pulse is so much more uber.

[Fixer]

10 seconds of tactical marines + terminators running into Warriors and Flayed ones (possibly some Pariahs) = dead army.

[NateIG]

Even if there is two fragon squads there...that probably isnt going to beat a lord and three destroyers...lord can tie up one of the fragons...if you absolutely had to send a destroyer into melee to tie up one of the other ones...proceed to shoot...heck if he had a solar pule and and extra destroyer on the field (close to the cost of shroud) it would have probably been even more clear cut. :P

[Jay_Davis]

Well, i think the ability needs to be reworked because it is BOTH OP and UP.

It is supposed to be the most powerful ability but its rarely worth getting. The problem is that it is pretty useless most of the time, making it UP. The problem is that if you manage to get the situation set up just right, it's devastating, making it OP.

It needs to be changed so it's a lot more useful without being a complete game-changer in certain situations.

[BudgetMessiah]

Even if there is two fragon squads there...
"Even if I didn't watch the replay and have no idea what I'm talking about, and was rebuffed by another poster, I'm still right..."

heck if he had a solar pule and and extra destroyer on the field (close to the cost of shroud) it would have probably been even more clear cut.

Wrong, because as has been mentioned already, neither of those wrests control out of the hands of a player for 10 seconds.

Heck, here's an idea...why don't you actually look at the evidence I've very carefully detailed for others to look at instead of firing off a knee-jerk rebuttal to anyone who says that any facet of your preferred race isn't balanced?

Nightmare Shroud is a really crap ability...The times I've tried to use it, the enemy just runs off in random directions.
Then clearly Shroud must be balanced, and you definitely used the ability to maximum effectiveness. The replay from top rated players in a tournament and the screenshots with doodles...they mean nothing.

It stands to reason that if you think nightmare shroud is OPed, then what about zerkers' Mark of Khorne ability?
That's a good point, and a good comparison. Two things I will mention is that Mark of Khorne doesn't last nearly as long as this ability (In fact, if it only lasted as long as Mark of Khorne, I probably wouldn't have posted this at all). The other reason why this is so devastating is, as Santiago mentioned, the berserkers have to move to a position to use this ability on foot, but the Necron Lord can instantly teleport to any position needed, and then fire off the shroud, allowing him to have very good control over where your troops are going to go.

That's insane. :Loco:


Imo Nightmare shroud is too strong.

Thank you. I appreciate hearing that from one of the best DoW players around.


But iirc I didn't have enough NWs in my base to make it that worthwhile to teleport behind him and force him into it, mostly wanted to get him out of my way so I could take out the banshee's.

At that exact moment, no, there weren't a great number of NW's north of that screenshot area. However, they do teleport in within a very short timeframe of when the Shroud is used. So I think they were available. In any case, if you had been thinking, "Gee, I'm going to cheese the living crap out of Avocado", it could have been that much worse, and that's all I was trying to say. If someone were interested in being cheap with the necrons (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=151661), this is certainly one way to do it.

[santiago4ever]

"Gee, I'm going to cheese the living crap out of Avocado"

I played cron against his eldar, how much more cheese can I use? ;)

And no I don't think this is the best way to be cheap with necrons, it requires that you reach tier 3, and in some matchups/maps you really need LF early game, and then you could always use Solar Pulse... Phylac is a must to get ofcourse :P So getting tier 3 with an open slot isn't always easy ^_^

[DukeRustfield]

10 seconds of tactical marines + terminators running into Warriors and Flayed ones (possibly some Pariahs) = dead army.
Flayed ones are absolutely useless vs. a running army. They simply do not exist. The enemy will be moving like what, 5 times faster than FO? So then you have a ranged army at distance from your CC FO. Weeee.

Chron is better with Warriors as I stated. So is Solar Pulse. In most situations, so is Veil of Darkness. All are much much better than NS.


Then clearly Shroud must be balanced, and you definitely used the ability to maximum effectiveness. The replay from top rated players in a tournament and the screenshots with doodles...they mean nothing.
ZOMG ONE REPLAY, NERF IT!!!! There are so many fucking abilities in this game and if used in the right moment can absolutely crush the enemy. Deep Strike. Chains. Psychic Storm. Burna Bomb. Regeneration. Snare Trap. Daemonfire.

How you picked one of the least used, crappiest choices on one of the most OP units is beyond me. Seriously, just go through the list of what the NL can do, and somehow justify that Shroud is more uber than ANY of the other abilities at any tier. NL abilities need a nerf, but if Shroud was T1 and cost 100, it still wouldn't be bought as much as the other stuff. Seriously, it's a complete shit power.

[Fannin]

An ability that makes a player lose control of his units for ten seconds is a shit power, Duke? Maybe in your hands, but in general? Hardly.

A well-positioned use in an opportune time means that the attacking army is utterly annihilated without any losses suffered by the Necron player.... slightly more powerful than whirlwinds of old.

[fuggles]

It's the DC desktop icon deployed in game - how can you say that it's crappy?

So Avocado had no control what-so-ever over the fragons? They just pelt away from the NL?

[DukeRustfield]

Holy hyperbole!!!! I bet if you use it, it will make you get in your car and drive off a cliff too! That's how fucking powerful it is! I bet you also have lots of replays to show this but they're in a vault with Elvis waiting for the 3rd coming! Be careful, the walls have ears! You people are silly. Just look at the numbers. It sucks compared to abilities whole tiers lower and cheaper any way you slice it.

I prefer the power of death, that makes you lose control of your units for infinite seconds. Unfortunately, Shroud doesn't help you achieve it using the army you have at hand. You got to port your NL into the back of the enemy T3 army and activate this power to gain anything resembling usefullness from it, as unlike Solar Pulse, it's range is a big fat 0.

Other things that make you "lose control" of your units: Artillery/nades. Morale damage. Slow effects (snare trap/shouts/Chron). Possession. Smoke. Freeze abilities (SS, CoTMS). Enemies engaging you in CC...etc.

Ask real Necron players. Do you use Shroud? I mean, I don't care, it's a shit ability. Remove it from the game if it makes you happy. I doubt anyone will notice. But there's certainly a lot more pressing concerns.

[bavbav]

yes i agree, nightmare shround is imba. teleport behind any army, press button, watch them break and run into ur necron army and be defeated. and people complain about cloaked monolith.... this is like 10 times worse.

[BudgetMessiah]

An ability that makes a player lose control of his units for ten seconds is a shit power, Duke? Maybe in your hands, but in general? Hardly.Ouch. But more or less what I was driving at.

And no I don't think this is the best way to be cheap with necrons, it requires that you reach tier 3, and in some matchups/maps you really need LF early game, and then you could always use Solar Pulse... Phylac is a must to get ofcourse :P
No, it's definitely not the easiest way to be cheap, but it's an attack that, in many cases, cannot be countered or answered. I picked a game between you two not because I was trying to say "Omg Santi=cheesy", but I was trying to show that this tactic, even in high level expert play, is impractical/impossible to defend against. In fact, I'm glad that you did play this game and use this tactic, Santiago, because it makes the case very clearly to the developers that this needs to be fixed.

Unfortunately there are some knuckleheads who are saying things like "The Eldar had already played badly and lost", or "It's imba, but that's okay", or perhaps most absurd "One replay of top tournament play means nothing; I decided it was a shit power before I even opened this thread, and nothing's going to change that". What they should realize is that with players of this skill level, at that point in the game, nothing had been decided. Shrewd play could have brought the win to either side. The problem was that a poorly designed ability deprived the players of a reasonably fair contest, and that should be addressed by the game makers. Thus I post.

[Fixer]

Flayed ones are absolutely useless vs. a running army. They simply do not exist. The enemy will be moving like what, 5 times faster than FO? So then you have a ranged army at distance from your CC FO. Weeee.

That's why you run them INTO the flayed ones... Pay attention Duke :P

[BudgetMessiah]

unlike Solar Pulse, it's range is a big fat 0.

First, that would be "its range". And second, the range is 15. I even provided a link to this information on the previous screen. Are you sure you've played this game?


yes i agree, nightmare shround is imba. teleport behind any army, press button, watch them break and run into ur necron army and be defeated. and people complain about cloaked monolith.... this is like 10 times worse.

Welcome Bav. I did give you credit and mention that you called this problem before I made this post. I'm glad you've found us. :)

[Buguba]

Are you sure you've played this game?

A misquote on the exact numerical range of an ability is no grounds for not having played the game at all...

Of the top of your head, can you tell me what the range of GM plasma is?

But regardless, It's a fine ability. How is it anymore OP than solar pulse? Nightmare shroud makes a bulk of people lose their moral... but solar pulse makes it so that you can't see a damn thing, reveals your infiltrated units, and stops them from shooting. Mind you, they can run away, but so can the people from nightmare shroud...


I was trying to show that this tactic, even in high level expert play, is impractical/impossible to defend against.

Under this same philosophy, the earthshaker and orbital bombardment abilities are OP as well. Earthshaker is t3, and you can shoot it blindly into the dark and still get perfect accuracy. Not to mention it kills anything it touches as well. Unless you have some super strategy of noticing when an earthshaker is about to go off?...

Or even with Oribital Bombardment (which is usually used as a base wrecker) how are you supposed to avoid that? "Oh! I just move my buildings at the last second so he can't hit them!"

Nightmare shroud is a late game ability, therefore, its a GOOD ability. If you don't like the way it works, do you have a suggestion otherwise? Maybe any unit TOUCHING the necron lord loses moral? Or is that imba as well?

Not to mention that you can't theorize the potential imbaness of something if it hasn't even been demonstrated yet :P. You yourself said that he COULD HAVE utlized the nightmare shroud in synchronization with teleport, but the fact of the matter is that he DIDN'T. Therefore your example is nil and void.

[Vytae]

late game ability, therefore, its a GOOD ability

So's the CS airstrike,right?

They just need to code it in so units run *away* from the opposing players units. So after the 10 seconds you don't find your entire army in CC.

[NateIG]

To answer Duke's question, I'd have to say I wouldnt miss, or possibly even notice if the shroud disappeared off the archive selection list. The main obstacle is cost - it's like 3x as expensive as mark of khorne, a comparible ability. If anything, for what it costs it should probably do something more right now passively for the lord when you're not using its activated ability.

[BudgetMessiah]

Of the top of your head, can you tell me what the range of GM plasma is?


Off the top of my head, I can say that it's greater than 0.


How is it anymore OP than solar pulse? Nightmare shroud makes a bulk of people lose their moral... but solar pulse makes it so that you can't see a damn thing, reveals your infiltrated units, and stops them from shooting. Mind you, they can run away, but so can the people from nightmare shroud...

No, they don't just lose their morale. And they can't just withdraw, as they can from the pulse. They are forced for 10 seconds to run directly away from the NL. Which, because the NL can be anywhere relative to the troops immediately prior to using it, means that the necrom player can move an enemy army in any direction he chooses for 10 seconds, every 80 seconds.

Now that you actually understand what the ability does, do you think this sounds like it's fair?


Not to mention that you can't theorize the potential imbaness of something if it hasn't even been demonstrated yet :P. You yourself said that he COULD HAVE utlized the nightmare shroud in synchronization with teleport, but the fact of the matter is that he DIDN'T. Therefore your example is nil and void.

Educated people call this sort of debate tactic "argumentum ad ignorantium"; an appeal to ignorance. I'm not very well educated, so I'll just call it bullshit.


They just need to code it in so units run *away* from the opposing players units. So after the 10 seconds you don't find your entire army

That sounds like a reasonable solution to me, too.

[NateIG]

Which direction is 'away' from enemy units when you're encircled?

[santiago4ever]

Cost is a non-issue for cron lategame really, most of their units comes free from spyder and cron usually has quite a bit over 100+ econ in tier 3 which means just half a minute for shroud.

It is a very strong ability and I would say that it is too strong.


Just look at the numbers. It sucks compared to abilities whole tiers lower and cheaper any way you slice it.

Not correct imo. Sometimes you need to use up your artifacts early game which often will win you the game, however if you reach tier 3 you should always pick nightmare shroud over any other artifact. Inivisbility can be easily countered by most races, Resurrect isn't that useful when you have the spyder already giving you free squads, there is no real counter to Shroud.

I totally abhor the idea of losing control of your units entirely, especially since the ability is instand and used by a teleporting unit. Atleast the Lord Destroyers possession takes a long time to cast, only affects one unit and causes the LD to leave the battle until the unit is destroyed. The NL just teleports in and you can say goodbye to control of half your army while they run into the NWs and dies because anything getting close to a tier 3 mass of NWs is dead meat.

[NateIG]

I at least find in many of my games that the reason I tend to go tier 3 at all with necrons instead of trying to finish it in 2.5 with destroyers is if I absolutely need Heavy destroyers on the field...and then it's a constant half a minute choice between another one of them on the field or a shroud, and the destroyers usually win out for me anyways. Yes the removing control from a player is probably a nad thing in an RTS game, but people in this thread are also acting like it causes all units to run straight into the necron army and slaughters every single one. Isnt there just as much chance any given unit will flee in the correct direction as it will plow into some warriors? At least that much is a coin flip.

Just briefly thinking of what other things the shroud could do opposed to taking control out of the player's hands briefly, what about some kind of activated wide area damage penalty to affected enemy units? Dunno, that's all I can think of off the top of my head at the time of this post.

[santiago4ever]

Isnt there just as much chance any given unit will flee in the correct direction

The units will run away from the NL, so if NL teleports behind army and activates shroud they will run straight into the NWs.

[SubakuGaara]

umm... I'm not even sure why this thread is still open. Nightmare shroud is fine. I mean, you have to understand, khorne zerkers also have a t3 ability that does the same thing as nightmare shroud. Only difference is khorne zerker have the research cheaper, the spell has a 20 second shorter cooldown, and the spell can be placed on as many khorne zerkers as you want. Nightmare shroud on one bloody unit isn't bad. Its fine.


if any nec lord ability needs to be looked at, its the phylactery+phase shifter combo. Turning on phase shifter, while equipped with phylactery adds I believe about 600-700 HP to the nec lord in 10 seconds while he's invincible. Basically the nec lord will never die and will be the ultimate harassing unit. I mean, its so imba.

but nightmare shroud? I'd beg for nightmare shroud over some of the other artifact combos around.

[Micro102]

At that exact moment, no, there weren't a great number of NW's north of that screenshot area. However, they do teleport in within a very short timeframe of when the Shroud is used. So I think they were available. In any case, if you had been thinking, "Gee, I'm going to cheese the living crap out of Avocado", it could have been that much worse, and that's all I was trying to say. If someone were interested in being cheap with the necrons (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=151661), this is certainly one way to do it. the NL had about 20 health left any longer and there wouldnt have been a NL to use the ability.


Heck, here's an idea...why don't you actually look at the evidence I've very carefully detailed for others to look at instead of firing off a knee-jerk rebuttal to anyone who says that any facet of your preferred race isn't balanced? your rebuttaling far more then the ppl you are talking too, the only evidence i see there is a match were if he did use shroud in the back of his army it would have made things worse.

that big post and all i saw was you agreeing with everyone who said it was OP, trying to convine whoever was undecided, and ranting at ppl whoever disagreed.

shroud is a teir 3 ability, costs the most, and if you manage to tele your NL into the back of an army of long ranged morale effected inf and have them all charge towards your army of NW, then yes it would be a slaughter. but FO, immortals, even wraiths will drastically reduce the damage done. also does FoF cancel out the effect like it does to chrono. or does a morale restore ability cancel it? its hard to tell seeing its used to little being overshadowed by the veil of darkness.

[Melonplant]

Its just a silly ability. I labbed it with a friend. It makes the BLOODTHIRSTER run away. Hilarious.

It's not imbalanced. Necron t3 is trash. This COULD bring them on par with other races, if people USED it.

[War-Reborn]

I must confess that rarely have i seen this ability used myself, rarely have i seen it used in other replays, and i'm struggling to see how if this is so good why it's not being used on the same scale as somthing like chains/zerks

[Micro102]

because its not good unless its in a perfect scenario.

[Vytae]

Which direction is 'away' from enemy units when you're encircled?


If your entire army is encircled by a necron army, youve got far greater problems then losing control of your entire army for 10 seconds.

[NateIG]

Still on the lines of talking about coding it to flee from any nearby necron units, it's not that hard to be encircled by wraiths or destroyers, the entire army isnt always warriors here ya' know :P.

Also, to Santiago, I do retract what I said above about chance of running in certain directions. Upon carefully testing it they do run opposite the necron lord, so it can be reliably used for traps like that.

Still though, you practically would have to slaughter a squad or two in such a trap for it to pay for itself at 350 power.

[Melonplant]

After reviewing everything in this topic*, nightmare shroud is THE MOST BALANCED PART of dark crusade. Thats why the DC icon is its picture - to trick you.

And in t3 your necron lord is spending most of its time being a nightbringer and dying over and over again as i recall. Well, t4 at least

[fs_xyz]

I thought NShroud only become OPed against races without quick morale recovery skill....

[BudgetMessiah]

umm... I'm not even sure why this thread is still open. Nightmare shroud is fine. I mean, you have to understand, khorne zerkers also have a t3 ability that does the same thing as nightmare shroud. Only difference is khorne zerker have the research cheaper, the spell has a 20 second shorter cooldown, and the spell can be placed on as many khorne zerkers as you want. Nightmare shroud on one bloody unit isn't bad. Its fine.

No, it's not. The thread's still open because it's definitely a problem, at least in the estimation of many people on these forums, one of which is a top player and a moderator here. There are other differences between these two abilities, both in function and potential application. These have all been discussed on previous pages, so if you'd like to gain a greater understanding as to why this thread's still open, I'd encourage you to read them.


if any nec lord ability needs to be looked at, its the phylactery+phase shifter combo. Turning on phase shifter, while equipped with phylactery adds I believe about 600-700 HP to the nec lord in 10 seconds while he's invincible. Basically the nec lord will never die and will be the ultimate harassing unit. I mean, its so imba.

One thing at a time. I'm not going to say that you're not right about your complaint, but honestly, I thought that this issue would be such a no-brainer, I got the nerve up to post this to the forums. If you want to start another thread, I'd love to read it, but please leave thread unhijacked. :)

[Micro102]

well that depends if morale recovery abilities negate NS

[BudgetMessiah]

your rebuttaling far more then the ppl you are talking too, the only evidence i see there is a match were if he did use shroud in the back of his army it would have made things worse.

that big post and all i saw was you agreeing with everyone who said it was OP, trying to convine whoever was undecided, and ranting at ppl whoever disagreed.
Dude...I can rebut people without even talking to them? That's AWESOME. I'm like a debate Jedi. Look the fuck out!

Seriously though. Look again, at more than just the post. Watch the replay. There's a link in there to a full replay. It's pretty good besides helping to make my point.



well that depends if morale recovery abilities negate NS
Honestly, I don't know. I haven't seen it come up, but if I were to hazard a total guess, I would think that if a unit did some sort of instant morale recovery while it was happening, then they would still be running, but have their morale back. The only thing that is described as trumping the "run that way" effect is total morale immunity.

[Micro102]

Dude...I can rebut people without even talking to them? That's AWESOME. I'm like a debate Jedi. Look the fuck out!

Seriously though. Look again, at more than just the post. Watch the replay. There's a link in there to a full replay. It's pretty good besides helping to make my point. quoting is the same as talking to them. its a reply to there post.

tell me what you were thinking when you posted a replay showing an ability being used differently then what your suggesting, you dont have any examples on this being used just some screen shots with scribbles showing where the NL "could" have been. this is even worse then theory craft because the direction they run in is random. its not "NL teles behind them so they run into necron army" ive used it they dont all run in sinc with each other they run around like lunitics.

and once again the ability is only effective if you have an army of NW. they are the only ones who can benifit from this. and i doubt your gonna have an army made up entirly out of NW. and i bet we arent going to see a second replay either consideeing what a useless ability it is.



the only thing thats contributed to this debate is a replay. everything else youve said so far is just blatent ranting. try more then "i have a replay that doesnt show what im trying to prove so its imba"

[Spekkio]

Nightmare shroud isn't imba, and this is why:

There are only three races that can suffer significant morale damage in t3 and have no way to rally: Tau and Eldar. Let's look at the other races:

SM: Extremely high morale armor, rally at 50 morale, sergeants have rally ability, heroes have morale bonuses and rallying abilities
CSM: Zerks, PSM, Oblits all morale immune
Orks: Mob bonus grants morale immunity
IG: Execute rallies troops + increases damage at a price of 20 req
Necron: Pariahs, Wraiths, and FOs are morale immune

It's no wonder that a t3 ability dedicated to breaking units is almost never picked -- it would only work against two of the races in the game at the time it becomes available!

[Micro102]

yeh and both of those races its usually game over before T3

[BudgetMessiah]

tell me what you were thinking when you posted a replay showing an ability being used differently then what your suggesting, you dont have any examples on this being used just some screen shots with scribbles showing where the NL "could" have been. this is even worse then theory craft because the direction they run in is random.

I was thinking, "Hey, this is broken, and because so few people use it, it's probably going to be overlooked unless I mention it".

And that's not how the ability works. Both Santiago and Nate agree with me. You can their comments on it here (http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=2373066&postcount=39) and here (http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=2373066&postcount=39). To summarize Nate's words, they reliably run opposite [away from] the Necron Lord.

The ability to move another player's units for 10 seconds in a reliable way is overly powerful (my words).

And @Spekkio, I agree, some races will be less affected by this than others. Though, I think some of the counters you listed (high morale, morale armor, or rallying abilities) won't help because, as I understand it, only immunity protects from this. True, some armies do have morale immune units. But even so, if this ability was overwhelmingly powerful versus just one race, it should still be looked it.

[Micro102]

what about units that are next to or too far away form the NL? he cant cover everyone and the units he missed due to him being too far back can block the others with pathing and the ones next to him or even 70 degrees from him will not run into the army. that replay showed a small army, id say about 10-12 squad cap not a large army.

[BudgetMessiah]

The way squads move in this game, they don't really block each other in the fashion you're describing, and if you've got a couple of units that are just out of range...well good for you. He managed to only kill 80% of your army by clicking a single button instead of all of it. Sounds great. ;)

[Buguba]

Uh huh...

Seriously, why is this thread even open? This isn't even a discussion, it's a flame war. Do you even hear yourself?


"Even if I didn't watch the replay and have no idea what I'm talking about, and was rebuffed by another poster, I'm still right..."

What kind of rebuttle is that?

If you can't debate civilly, then don't post. Seriously, the ONLY good things you've said about ANYONE in this thread is Santiago. And that was only when he agreed with you!

Then you have your intelligent, deep, and thoughtful response to my post...


Educated people call this sort of debate tactic "argumentum ad ignorantium"; an appeal to ignorance. I'm not very well educated, so I'll just call it bullshit.

Seriously, grow up. The whole purpose of a thread isn't to bash other people in the dirt for proposing their opinions, it's to GET THEIR OPINIONS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Nightmare shroud is a very powerful ability, yes. The fact of the matter remains though that it is still late game, and often pales to the other abilities.

How is it any less imba than an earthshaker though? Seriously, at least your units are still alive with nightmare shroud. With an earthshaker half of them are dead. Then you don't really have any units to run away with... :Oogle:


No, they don't just lose their morale. And they can't just withdraw, as they can from the pulse. They are forced for 10 seconds to run directly away from the NL. Which, because the NL can be anywhere relative to the troops immediately prior to using it, means that the necrom player can move an enemy army in any direction he chooses for 10 seconds, every 80 seconds.

The answer is, yes, I think it's fair. Considering that it's no less of a doomsday device than orbital bombardment, Tau air caste strike, earthshakers, or mad dok bomb, it seems rather in line with me.

The Necron Lord is all about abilities. He loses to most other commanders in the combat war (except the farseer...). But you want to nerf/remove some of the only things making him comparable to the other commanders?

Or even compare the ability to IG priest fanatacism. For 10 seconds you get a squad that's completely invincible. Not only that, but you get 3 invincible squads (four if you have a priest in the command squad). That's 10 seconds where you have absolutely no ability to stop people from shooting at you. It's an ability like that which can literally turn the tide of a battle in the blink of an eye, but you're not screaming imba on that?

Or maybe your just on the buff IG and nerf Necs bandwagon.

[Gaizokubanou]

There are only three races that can suffer significant morale damage in t3 and have no way to rally: Tau and Eldar. Let's look at the other races:

SM: Extremely high morale armor, rally at 50 morale, sergeants have rally ability, heroes have morale bonuses and rallying abilities
CSM: Zerks, PSM, Oblits all morale immune
Orks: Mob bonus grants morale immunity
IG: Execute rallies troops + increases damage at a price of 20 req
Necron: Pariahs, Wraiths, and FOs are morale immune


So does SM's rally and execute allows SM and IG players to regain control over their units before the 10 seconds is up? If so, this skill sounds UP, if not, it sounds OP.

I'm assuming that it does give back control since I don't see it that often.

[farseer_derek]

no, i beleive it doesn't so really the only races it actually doesnt affect at all would be necs,orks and csm although vs orks you could kill off half their army before using it or something (to get rid of waaagh bonus)

[4Servant]

NS is a sm game breaker all squads broken and are slow as fuck so once they are close to the nw mass they can't run wich means gg no re.

Also against tau you should always pick the invis spell instead of NS due tau detection sux and its basicly a freewin.

[auApex_01]

This ability could maybe do with a slight nerf but IMO is so far down the list of Cron problems that it doesn't warrant any more than a passing glance by the balance team....


Uh huh...

Seriously, why is this thread even open? This isn't even a discussion, it's a flame war. Do you even hear yourself?



The irony is that this guy is saying "argumentum ad ignorantium" while throwing "argumentum ad hominem" attacks around everywhere - ad homs are the lowest form of logical fallacy! (yes I'm aware of the double irony)

[War-Reborn]

What with all these OMG massive IMBAL threads of late maybe a default template could be stuck up on the board, saving us all the time an effort of re-typing the same bits out again an again, that way everyone can give full attention to all these game breaking "issues".....

Just played a game today, an have suddenly been hit by what i can only describe as a massive game breaking totally overpowered uncounterable abilty/unit that is <insert name here> which lost me the game through no fault of my own, since i was obviously the better player, this abilty/unit is so blatently overpowered because <insert reasons here> that it simply cant be countered by <insert your race here> an as such needs total nerfing along the lines of <insert nerf here>

[fuggles]

Just played a game today, an have suddenly been hit by what i can only describe as a massive game breaking totally overpowered uncounterable unit that is The White Queen which lost me the game through no fault of my own, since i was obviously the better player, this unit is so blatently overpowered because it moves anywhere that it simply cant be countered by Black King and as such needs total nerfing along the lines of Imperial Guard

Problem is that the original post was ace in this instance. Replay, diagrams => problem. Many agree, others conduct themselves less well.

To summarise, basically necrons have an invisible, teleporting, undead, terrifying sheepdog which can funnel all your units in the direction of his choice. How can this not be seen as a problem? Also, less of the it's too low for Relic to look at. If they fix everything but this then this is still borked and we sit and hope for 1.4

Can you nay-sayers provide replays of when this failed? Ok, it might not be as immediately good as some other necron powers but a broken army is no laughing matter when it can't get away and rally.

[Question]

Its been shouted at on the forums because pretty much everyone is picking veil of darkness instead, and im fairly sure shroud doesnt work on morale immune units.

I find it really weird that shroud forces the opponent to retreat. Pretty much the same thing as mark of khorne as well. Relic has been saying since DoW 1.0 that they specifically did NOT want to take control away from the player by forcing their units to retreat when low on morale, then in DC, they add in 2 abilities to do just that.

[MegaTheOne]

i saw avatar running away when NL used NS

[Mullertime]

Dude, perhaps the reason why the Nightmare Shroud hasn't been brought up much, is because its essentially a late-tier weapon.

You make it out to be the I-WIN button. But you seem to simplistically overlook that by the time you can actually get the shroud, the other player should have tanks to boot, and maybe a few morale-immune units.
So whilst lower-tier units run off, the tanks and that will still be there to provide covering fire whilst the units regroup.

That's like moaning that Orbital Bombardment is IMBA vs your scouts...

Anyways, I'd like to ask why you picked apart NateIG and DukeRustfield's points, but don't address kornuletz', which seems to have hit the nail squarely on the head of this discussion

[Micro102]

i dont see how anyone can come to the conclusion that NS is overpower when there is not 1 replay of it being used as indicated.

[Buguba]

The irony is that this guy is saying "argumentum ad ignorantium" while throwing "argumentum ad hominem" attacks around everywhere - ad homs are the lowest form of logical fallacy! (yes I'm aware of the double irony)

I don't feel I understand your post. I can see what you mean if you're saying that the OP is arguing ad hominem, but I don't see what you mean if you're saying that I'm arguing ad hominem.

I felt the OP was attacking most of the people who disagreed with his suggestion with responses like "Are you sure you've played this game?" So if anything, it's the OP who is arguing the ad hominem.

If you meant me though, however, could you please explain what you mean?

Perhaps I am faulty of ad hominem, but I felt justified by the fact that the OP did it first. That's not right of me though, so I apologize.

Regardless of my own opinion of the original poster or the opinion of the original poster about me, I still believe that NS is a fine ability, and doesn't warrant the title of "I WIN" button.

[fuggles]

Did you overlook the first post here Micro102? Just felt like popping in at page 5?

[War-Reborn]

Just played a game today, an have suddenly been hit by what i can only describe as a massive game breaking totally overpowered uncounterable unit that is The White Queen which lost me the game through no fault of my own, since i was obviously the better player, this unit is so blatently overpowered because it moves anywhere that it simply cant be countered by Black King and as such needs total nerfing along the lines of Imperial Guard

Problem is that the original post was ace in this instance. Replay, diagrams => problem. Many agree, others conduct themselves less well.

To summarise, basically necrons have an invisible, teleporting, undead, terrifying sheepdog which can funnel all your units in the direction of his choice. How can this not be seen as a problem? Also, less of the it's too low for Relic to look at. If they fix everything but this then this is still borked and we sit and hope for 1.4

Can you nay-sayers provide replays of when this failed? Ok, it might not be as immediately good as some other necron powers but a broken army is no laughing matter when it can't get away and rally.

But that would reduce white queen to the role of pretty icon in whichever structure she hails from, ahh the beauty of useless icons i love IG....

Agree with you totally the orig post was ace, well laid out & structured argument, infact i had to double check i was in the right forum....

Problem i see is that while this abilty sounds like it's total death, things need to be in place, like you need enough necron warriors in the right place to kill off the stuff running toward them, an you need everything in the right postion so they run in the right directions, for you to be able to really capitalise, it's also a very late tier abilty.

Now i see a sorc an some zerks an all thats needed here is to cast one spell chains an the sqaud in question is pretty much stranded, rdy to be cut to pieces by the zerks it's pretty much a free kill on whatever squad gets nailed, and it's available at tier 2, an is much easier to use/predict the results on, there are others like warshout that also break an for all intents an purposes imobilise a sqaud, so looking at other abilties in the game, this just seems a slightly more powerful late game variation, an in my opinion not as useful, due to it's late arrival

[Micro102]

Did you overlook the first post here Micro102? Just felt like popping in at page 5?
i knew someone would post something like this. "when there is not 1 replay of it being used as indicated." the replay showed him scaring eldar AWAY from the NW and destroyers. not towards like whats being debated

[eventhorizon]

I watched the replay, and after seeing that and with my own knowledge of Necrons, not to mention the ridiculously large economy advantage santi had built up, I think I can say that if santi had'nt bothered with NS, almost any other unit he could've built would've still resulted in the same win. He could've used Flayed Ones and dropped them into the mix, if only to keep everyone on the move while the Destroyers did the work. More Wraiths could've done it but not as well as Flayed. Solar Pulse. All the while pumping out more Destroyers.

Sure, you could make Nightmare Shroud a bit fairer, but I don't think it would make much difference to that game particularly. santi was clearly in the better position eco-wise, and managed to make it through tier 2 to 3, which is where Necron really weaken up against everyone (much better pre-tier 3) and won that match pretty fairly.

In short- I don't think Nightmare Shroud is particularly OP, certainly not an 'I Win' button or anything game-breaking as the original post suggests but I still would'nt care much if you nerfed it.

[izshou]

I watched the replay.
but i think the real IMBA is nec's powerful resource.
every NEC get 8 gen at start, than +172 at t3.
if you are a good player, than will meet restored monolith.
if you are not good enough, than meet 2nd monolith and mass destroyer.

How much requistion and power be other race needed to against +172 NEC?
Even a cheaper IG only +132(R)/+40(P) at T2 but nec have +120(P).
and that all research need 225(R)/300(P) by IG and 300(P) by NEC.
But in battle,every IG and nec losing strategic point,IG lose 100(R)+100(R)35(P)
and +18, NEC lose 25(P) 20%(or not).

So I purpose to cut down the power nec got for a period
while any NEC'S building AND scarabs be destroyed.
or rework NEC resource .

[fuggles]

@Micro102, why do you write things full well knowing that someone will misinterpret them? I took 'being used as indicated' to mean that large diagram with arrows indicating how it was being used.

Yeesh.

I think I might play around with NS this weekend, time allowing.

[auApex_01]

I don't feel I understand your post. I can see what you mean if you're saying that the OP is arguing ad hominem, but I don't see what you mean if you're saying that I'm arguing ad hominem.

I felt the OP was attacking most of the people who disagreed with his suggestion with responses like "Are you sure you've played this game?" So if anything, it's the OP who is arguing the ad hominem.


I'm agreeing with you - The OP is using ad hom attacks etc. I thought my post was pretty clear but there you go....

[Micro102]

@Micro102, why do you write things full well knowing that someone will misinterpret them? I took 'being used as indicated' to mean that large diagram with arrows indicating how it was being used.
what was so hard to understand about that screen shot? it said "could" have teleported and and the NL wasnt using shroud behind the eldars, he was using it in front of them.

[farseer_derek]

fix nec econ then talk about NL powers, if they all of a sudden ACTUALLY COST something in regards to the eco then maybe it'll be worth it, as it is now nec econ is so plown out of proportion that things that we complain about as being imba might not actually be if nec econ takes a hit (which it should) because all of a sudden they cost a lot for what they do

[Micro102]

thats easier said then done. its a struggle for resources in the beggining only when deep into T3-4 will necrons eocnomy become so powerful they can buy whatever they want.

[driftster]

Exactly, so in other words..
Unless you rush a necron...and take the fun out of the game completely..

Necrons have nearly limitless resources..
which i think is everyone's gruff

[Tomac]

Remember, though, Necrons are limited to a max of 3 production buildings so even when floating lots of power they can't utilize it efficiently like other races that can make as many barracks/machine pits/etc as they like.
Tomac

[Jay_Davis]

A Necron that's floating lots of power has already beaten you or already lost.

[magicalcarpet]

Yesterday I watched a replay between Micro and an IG player where he floated 800 power while almost his entire army get decimated, then he won anyway.

EDIT: that was a respose to Jay.

On the topic of this power, it's one of the end-game powers, so it needs to be good. However, any power that makes you lose control of your troops so that there is nothing you can do, makes me frown.

Perhaps its effect should just be changed.

[Micro102]

......i dont recall any match like that. wait, unless you mean the one where he didnt spam or rush at all. honorable IG? he build a few veh, about 4 guardsmen squads, and thats really the biggest army i remember seeing in that game. and if i recall, i used that energy up in a heartbeat with 2 veh and an extra gen.

also isnt this thread suppose to be about nihgtmare shroud?

[BudgetMessiah]

Sorry, haven't been around to post for a few days. Rebuilt my computer and had a confllict between my new mobo and my new video card, so I've been without a system for a few days.

Anyways, yes, this thread is about Nightmare Shroud. I still think it's an overly powerful ability due to the fact that it allows the opposing player to control the movement of your troops. I will admit that I haven't seen too much of Mark of Khorne in use, but I am guessing that it's a bit less obviously nasty because it lasts only a fraction of the time that NS does, and it's significantly more difficult to move the berserkers in a position to "steer" the enemy troops compared with the teleport/NS combo of the necron lord. Either way, perhaps that power should also be addressed.

And finally, what do you guys mean by "ace"? Is that an acronym for something? I'm a bit lost.:dunce:

[Micro102]

there are reasons that khorne beserker fear ability isnt as strong as NL

-NL is a commander
-costs far more
-cannot be spammed
-chaos doest need it

[Fannin]

It's happened to me. Back when I played DC, I had my whole damn army annihilated by teleport into nightmare shroud, causing all my troops to run straight into the Necron army. Not pretty at all, and cost me the game.

[BudgetMessiah]

there are reasons that khorne beserker fear ability isnt as strong as NL Ya. What's that got to do with the price of eggs?

One's got a relatively shorter duration than the other. That doesn't mean that one, or the other, or both are balanced. It also doesn't mean that the ability to move enemy troops against his will shouldn't be taken out of the game entirely.

[Micro102]

it also doesnt mean thet NS is to powerful because it isnt as weak as the khorne beserkers.

[Cyberbob]

I must confess, Micro, that your logic escapes me.

Obviously Nightmare Shroud is more powerful than Mark of Khorne. What of it? BudgetMessiah said in his post that perhaps Mark of Khorne should be looked at as well. Now, if the weaker ability is too powerful, then surely the stronger ability is as well.

[Micro102]

thats a good point, but so far there is not a shred of proof that points towards those abilities being OP. so how is anyone calling any of these abilities OP when they have never been a problem?

[magicalcarpet]

The problem has been stated many times - an ability that causes you to lose CONTROL of your troops has a lot of potential to be exploited.

Losing control of fragile units that require micro is a bad thing.

[BudgetMessiah]

Micro, the proof is the expert level replay of a tournament game, provided in a link in the original post.

[Micro102]

The problem has been stated many times - an ability that causes you to lose CONTROL of your troops has a lot of potential to be exploited. thats all theory, im talking about it being used to turn an army into mush like budget is implying


Micro, the proof is the expert level replay of a tournament game, provided in a link in the original post. a replay that doesnt show the ability being used how it is said to be imba, just what it does.


in order to cause that much damage to the army to the point where it turned into a game breaker would require you to have an army of upgraded NW (which when going beyond 3 squads takes an amount of time usually not worth it.) and have the NL with his T3 artifact teleport behind an army of grouped together inf and scare them all towards the NW and have the NW kill them all.

[driftster]

Micro, the fact that it literally puts control of your broken army into his hands is why it's too powerful, i'd understand if they just well "broke" but broke and run in the exact opposite dir of the lord? That's pushin the envelope there.

And I mean seriously, the necs have enough ridiculously dirty tricks in their repertoire, why throw this into the mix aswell?

And in regards to what you said, he HAD 3 squads.
to the other players guardians dragons banshee's and vipers..

yet the nightmare shroud turned Guards dragons and banshee's into nothing in less than ...10 seconds.

[BudgetMessiah]

I dunno what to say Micro. If you want to blind your eye to what's been clearly presented, then there's no convincing you, I guess.

[Zallis]

Whatever happened to relic saying that they didn't want to take control of a player's units away from the player? I remember reading that somewhere.

And Micro, just because something isn't used very often or exactly as specified in most cases doesn't mean the potential for it being OP doesn't exists. How the hell do you think people figured out the lightning field doesn't have a cap on it's charge? Someone tried it. Just because most people don't have the patience to wait for it to charge up enough to wipe out an HQ doesn't mean that the ability to wipe out an HQ instantly isn't OP.

It's just like saying genocide is evil because it can wipe out a race, but most people don't commit genocide and there might always be survivors, so genocide is ok.. Except in your case you're not even admitting there's the possibility of it being OP because it's rarely used to such an effect.

[farseer_derek]

see, theres the point where you know your playing the game too much.. your mixing real life with it... :P

jjs by the way all in good taste ^^

[fuggles]

The funny thing is that he's a necron player - you think he would have been curious to try and exploit it and then maybe post a replay either way.

[Micro102]

hey, show me a replay, not a lab, that shows NS turning a game around. rihgt now all your doing is claiming OP on an ability not because of any experience but because of over exagerated theory craft and that it makes you lose control of your units.



Micro, the fact that it literally puts control of your broken army into his hands is why it's too powerful, i'd understand if they just well "broke" but broke and run in the exact opposite dir of the lord? That's pushin the envelope there.

And I mean seriously, the necs have enough ridiculously dirty tricks in their repertoire, why throw this into the mix aswell?

And in regards to what you said, he HAD 3 squads.
to the other players guardians dragons banshee's and vipers..

yet the nightmare shroud turned Guards dragons and banshee's into nothing in less than ...10 seconds.
if they just broke that NS would be more then useless, it would be just like them running away except now they are faster. necrons dont need another "push back" artifact in T3. the necron player may have had 3 squads, but only one was near the eldars army and the NS didnt kill anything. it scared half the army away from the banshees. and the 2 destroyers and NW squad killed the 1 almost dead banshee squad.


It's just like saying genocide is evil because it can wipe out a race, but most people don't commit genocide and there might always be survivors, so genocide is ok.. Except in your case you're not even admitting there's the possibility of it being OP because it's rarely used to such an effect. why do you think its not used that much? maybe because other artifacts overshadow it. also there isnt any personal experience with it turning a game around.

[Jaimas]

The reason it's not used as much as it is is because the Necrons have access to far more utilitarian artifacts early on. Phylactery and Lightning Field are, quite simply, must-haves.

Because of this, Nightmare Shroud seems kinda iffy in contrast - but it's still extremely powerful and definitely warrants investigation. I totally agree with Santiago; abilities which remove control (NS and that stupid Berserker ability) should be removed from the game entirely. There has to be a better way to make these effects less abusable, yet at the same time, keep them in the same approx. power level.

[4Servant]

Imo NS is not worth getting even though its imba.
The reason is simple you gain a far great advantage by going phase/lf/phylawhatever early game and try doing damage at that stage then waiting for for a really late game artifact you may never reach.
Also those 3 spells cost near nothing will NS cost alot and comes late. In 1v1 it certainly aint worth getting 9/10 due its to late.

Doesn't change the fact that is the most imba ability ever made in large tgames games as it can let run/break about 3/4 armies if positioned right.
Think about it.

[BudgetMessiah]

Oh, I dunno...I think Avocado probably has some experience seeing NS turn a game around on him, judging by the replay. ;)

[NateIG]

I'm almost tempted to say crons may need an ability like that in a large team games, as otherwise their ability to move around such large maps at all stages of the game is so compromised...they have to bring something to the table 'sometime' :P. Frankly I dont like to play cron in big team games as it feels like a lot of the time one is just crawling around trying to get where they need to be...and then find themselves up against high tier enemy troops right off the bat.

[BudgetMessiah]

The ability to teleport to any forward obelisk isn't a leg up in mobility?

Resist the temptation. :p

[NateIG]

I'd take a transport in the necron army any day, not that one exists.

[Micro102]

well i doubt relic is going to make an entire new artifact or just take it out so how are they going to change it? they cant just make it damage morale as ive already explained, so what do you suggest they do?


still waiting for some proof that its imba

[ImmortalChaos]

Well it has always been my opinion that nighmere shroud should do what the current VoD does, and VoD should give the NLs teleport the ability to take 1-2 squads with him.

[NateIG]

I said once before in another thread I believe, if it's really 'that' powerful here, maybe the nightmare shroud could cause some kind of wide area damage penalty to surrounding units for a period of time when activated. Although I dont know how effective this would really be, it just frankly seems like an even semi-fluffy alternative to what the shroud does in TT. As such recharge, cost, duration, area, etc, might need to be looked at then.

As for the veil research allowing the lord to attach and tele squads with him, as cool as that might be, I dont think anyone would hear the end of it if that happens, even if he wasnt invisible anymore :P.

[Shinova]

Does the nightmare shroud really take control away from the other player? Barely no one uses the thing so I never got the chance to find out.


EDIT: I've used it against another human player only once. He was Eldar. I jumped into the middle of his warp spiders and set off the ability and all his troops broke but they didn't run.

[Cyberbob]

Does the nightmare shroud really take control away from the other player?

Yup. You get 10 seconds of total loss of control - the affected units are broken, and run directly away from the Lord.

[Shinova]

I didn't read most of the thread, but does Avocado really testify that he lost control of his troops?

[fs_xyz]

You can ask a friend to test it. And yes, it cause a lost control.
Just point to a weird point, Tau Broadside and Crisis Suit seem to immune to this. Despite those units have morale value.

[Zallis]

Well, I can't comment about the crisis suit, but the broadside is morale immune, despite the fact that it has a morale value. The techpriest is the same.

[Micro102]

i think crisis suit is immune because it doesnt break. it just has 1500 morale....weird. well at least thats what it says on relic wiki

[ImmortalChaos]

I can confirm seeing crisis suits break. Dont remember ever seeing a BS break though.

[Zallis]

Uh.... you're looking at broadsides, which I mentioned do not take morale damage.

Crisis suits have 600 morale and can take morale damage. So they should break, and maybe it's just because they're rather slow to begin with that they don't really run away.

[Micro102]

sry yeah i meant broadside not crisis.

[BudgetMessiah]

Just a bit of necromancy to bring this back to the fore as people are considering making a community patch. This should be fixed in it.

[Micro102]

fixed how? its not like anyone has ever used it as an army crusher.

[BudgetMessiah]

Well, except for the replay on the first page. Or the fact that it can be used in that way. Santiago, who is both a top player and the player who happened to be playing the necron in the replay I mentioned, agrees that it is a flaw in the game, and that it should be addressed.

If the community is going for a balance patch, why not make it comprehensive?

[Micro102]

the first post did not show it as being a win situation. he scared the army AWAY so he could kill the banshees. ppl are talking about scaring an entire army into a bunch of NW. i cant call it a flaw in the game until i see someone actually use it to where it wins them the game.

[BudgetMessiah]

Oh that's right. I remember you now. The blind guy.

Well, everyone worth mentioning already lol'd at your take on things. No need to further spam that you can't see what's right in front of your nose.

[Hive_Node]

its not like anyone has ever used it as an army crusher.
I Nightmare Shrouded some Tactical Squads into a wall of Warriors/Fire Warriors. So yes, they have.

Anyway, it should be nerfed somehow, seeing as you can control where they run after you use it, by teleporting around the squads.

[Micro102]

Well, everyone worth mentioning already lol'd at your take on things. No need to further spam that you can't see what's right in front of your nose.the only thing i can see is that your trying to say something is imbalanced without any actual proof. just theory craft that cant even be backed up by numbers.


I Nightmare Shrouded some Tactical Squads into a wall of Warriors/Fire Warriors. So yes, they have.

Anyway, it should be nerfed somehow, seeing as you can control where they run after you use it, by teleporting around the squads.thats a team game. big difference.

[Cyberbob]

thats a team game. big difference.

Care to point out the difference between forcing another player's troops into your own units or an ally's units?


just theory craft that cant even be backed up by numbers.

Said the pot to the kettle.