Shadows

[remy]

Shadows, especially with regards to ATI, seem to be coming up in a lot of different threads, so I thought I'd chime in give the full story: with the ATI 3.6 drivers we noticed a slight glitch when the ships change from the 2nd most detailed LOD to the most detailed when you zoom in and out. ATI has been made aware of the problem. Some people have figured out how to enable shadows with the 3.6 drivers and they could check this out themselves. It is kind of hard to see as it only happens for one frame and is easiest to reproduce in multiplayer games when you only have one ship around.

So HW2 detects the 3.6 drivers and disables shadows simply so you don't see this glitch. If you enable shadows in the graphics settings screen with 3.6 or older drivers you don't get them because that option gets overridden. You do still get correct lighting which looks good, you just don't see a nice shadow from the corvette's gun casting on to itself.

Since HW2 detects the driver version and disables features as needed if you have a newer driver than HW2 (eg the 3.7 ATI drivers) it doesn't know what bugs may exist so doesn't force any features off. So once you've upgraded to the 3.7 drivers turning shadows on will actually turn them on. If you don't like their stylized look or their performance hit then just turn them off. Shadows, especially self shadows like HW2 has, are a lot of extra work to compute which is why you don't see them in older games at all. I happen to really like watching a corvette squad fly around kicking ass with shadows enabled and will gladly take the performance hit. As the ships twist and turn and the shadow moves across them looks really nice is motion, way better than the screen shots imply.

When the ships are rendered there are multiple render paths, including a path for DX9 level cards that support the OpenGL fragment program extension. There is not a unique one for the 9500+ and GeForceFX, they both render the same code. So if you were to trade your Radeon 9500 in for a 5900 you'd be disappointed to learn the shadows are the same.

The shadows are a bit blocky on the larger ships like the mothership, but that is just their style. Enjoy them on your warrior ships while you go destroy your enemies :)

[skynet]

well if both video card render the same code then how come on ati cards when shadows are forced on (or using 3.7 drivers) they look very jaged and black while on nvidia card they are smooth and grey

[thrawniejoe]

with the 3.7 drivers the Shadows are still really nasty(ugly), it didn't change from when I had them on with the 3.6 drivers.

Is the fix for HW2 suppost to be in the Massive 3.8 Drivers coming out in 4 weeks?

Settings:
AA 8x
AF 8x
Triple Buffer on

Radeon 9700 Pro

[NovaBurn]

So I would assume that my radeon 9000 pro isnt going to produce some nice shadows due to it being old :hmm:

I tried editing the drivesConfig.lua file to force the shadows with catalyst 3.7 and I didn't see much. I planning on upgrading so I will be getting a nice card + CPU and mem upgrade

[JargonFilter]

my geforce 2mx probably can't produce shadows. I believe this because i have yet to see one ;). The game looks great even at 800x600 with medium effects on. I don't think i have ever said that about a single game before. gg relic.

--pimpster

[scottismo]

I have a Radeon 9800pro and i agree with thrawniejoe they seem to be incredibly jagged on all ships in comparison to the fx cards. But i couldnt say for sure without watching someone play the game with one.

[Unmei no Chibi]

Yeah, they do look jaggy and stuff. But the weirdest thing is that they were completely smooth when I still used 3.6 >< O well

[HellSpawn]

Does this bug affect -all- ATI cards?

[Slippy]

on ati cards when shadows are forced on (or using 3.7 drivers)
I've installed the 3.7 drivers and there are no shadows, with the checkbox ticked in Video menu.
Where does one force them on?

[motiv-8]

I had to turn shadows off because they were choking the game. I actually gained 10fps from turning them off. Considering that, I don't need them so much. :D

[PenDragon]

I dont really see "much" difference between the nvidia and ati cards in shadow quality. I tested the gf3 ti200 and the ati radeon 9800 pro. There were only slight differences, and the ati shadows were only a little jagged compared to the nvidias. In conclusion I would'nt be too worried about it since you wont notice it when youre in an intense battle. However if youre a graphics freak and like to zoom in at the details you will be slightly disappointed if you a have a radeon card.

[IgnusDei]

I take it that Geforce 4 MX's don't support hw2 shadows either?

[Steppe]

well i have a athlon xp 1800+ and a geforce 2 gts and the shadows look beautiful. i play the game at full details but on 800x600

[Mr-e-Man]

For *some* people, the shadows on the ATi cards look NOTHING like those from the nVidia cards. Myself included.

Of course, I'm pretty sure I've experienced every bug ever known with the demo, and some new ones.

[Rent-a-Zilla]

http://scratchy.spods.co.uk/~rubenstein/harhar.jpg

"This is Fleet Command... which one of you muppets turned Shadows on?"

[HellSpawn]

Originally posted by IgnusDei
I take it that Geforce 4 MX's don't support hw2 shadows either? Oh, they do.. I myself have an old GF4 MX440 (64mb RAM) which shows them off beautifully. However, I'm planning to get a new Radeon before HW2 is in stores.. Well, that was the plan anyhow.. If ATI isn't able to sort out this odd bug with their drivers, I may have to look elsewhere. I'm due for a new card at any rate.

By the way.. I realize you guys over at Relic use mostly nVidia cards, but I'm wondering, did you test extensively with any ATIs? If so, I assume you addressed this issue with ATI, so what, if anything, did they respond?

[Dr Bombcrater]

Originally posted by Rent-a-Zilla
"This is Fleet Command... which one of you muppets turned Shadows on?"
LOL! That's a good one. Thanks for brightning up my day :D

[Solid]

well if both video card render the same code then how come on ati cards when shadows are forced on (or using 3.7 drivers) they look very jaged and black while on nvidia card they are smooth and grey

same problem and not fixed with CAT3.7

the shadows are very dark and jagged, very noticeable that something is wrong.


-Solid

[ÜberJumper]

Can someone post a screenshot of the shadows from an ATI card please?

[Mehrunes]

I was playing around with the settings in the driver.lua file and I tried setting the line CanFragmentProgram to 1 for my driver and chipset (44.03). I think the picture on the right is the method ATI uses, the picture on the left is the default and runs twice as fast in this scene (near Tanis). There's not an enormous difference, but the edges are definitely softened using the default settings...

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Mehrunes/hw2test.jpg

[Dragon Lord]

yeah, on my Sapphire 9500 Pro it looks the same as the picture on the right.

A screenshot from my pc: example (http://home.student.uva.nl/alexander.borsboom/jaggies.jpg)

[motiv-8]

5600 Ultra, shadows look like the picture on the right. If they were smooth like the ones on the left I would probably turn them back on.

How can I get them to look like that?

[Mehrunes]

Originally posted by motiv-8
5600 Ultra, shadows look like the picture on the right. If they were smooth like the ones on the left I would probably turn them back on.

How can I get them to look like that?

Are you using the 45.23 drivers? Using 44.03 instead might work.

[BrettMan]

What gives! I had the ATI 3.4 driver and upgraded like you said to 3.7 or whatever and now the game is super choppy!! What the hell happened!?!? It is still choppy as hell with the shadows turned off! It was silky smooth before and now this!! How do I get this fixed!?

[Dr Bombcrater]

Originally posted by BrettMan
What gives! I had the ATI 3.4 driver and upgraded like you said to 3.7 or whatever and now the game is super choppy!! What the hell happened!?!? It is still choppy as hell with the shadows turned off! It was silky smooth before and now this!! How do I get this fixed!?
I have the same problem on one of my machines. With the 3.7s that box (its an AthlonXP1700 with a Radeon 7500 DDR) is averaging about 12fps just sitting at the start of a skirmish game.

With a few ships on the screen the frame rate drops into single figures. :mad:

And there's a wierd problem that causes dust clouds to turn into blocky objects as soon as they touch the side of the screen.

[BrettMan]

Does anyone know how to fix my (and Dr Bombcrater's) problem?

[Dragon Lord]

Try to rollback the drivers, if that doesn't work uninstall the driver and reinstall the better working ones

[BrettMan]

Keep in mind that I am retarded when it come to hardware and hardware related software.

[The5thElephant]

Relic really needs to do something about ATIs problem with showing the shadows correctly. The problem ISNT that they dont show the shadows, cause they do with 3.7, the problem is how terribly they show the shadows.

[Dragon Lord]

Brettman: if you have windows 2000 / XP:

go to the config panel then to system ==> hardware tab ==> "device manager"

Then select your graphic card, right click and select "properties"

go to the "driver" tab and select "roll back driver", after this you have to restart your computer and then you should have your old drivers back.

if you have any problems or windows 9X pm me.

[motiv-8]

Originally posted by Mehrunes


Are you using the 45.23 drivers? Using 44.03 instead might work.

Sure did, thanks for the idea!

[Slippy]

8500AIW-128 with 3.7 drivers on XP and no shadows.

[Unmei no Chibi]

Originally posted by ÜberJumper
Can someone post a screenshot of the shadows from an ATI card please?

Sure:

http://www.evainfo.org/host/unmei/ss00013Small.jpg (http://www.evainfo.org/host/unmei/ss00013.jpg)

I think that this says enough :( O well, at least the game doesn't slow down for me

Made on:

Athlon 3000
1 gig ram
radeon 9800 pro 128
Full detail

[Ch3rokee]

Here you can see two screens with the shadows enabled with my ati, and I like it, It doesn't look too bad :ds:
http://personales.ya.com/allservice/ss00020.jpg
http://personales.ya.com/allservice/ss00036.jpg

My Specs:
Athlon XP 2700+
1 GB Ram PC2700
Radeon 9700np
Full Detail

[Zang]

Do you have smooth FPS with those shadows on Ch3rokee? And what resolution is that? 1024x768?

[Ch3rokee]

Originally posted by Zang
Do you have smooth FPS with those shadows on Ch3rokee? And what resolution is that? 1024x768?

The really is that the shadows makes a very high performance penalty. Without them I have more than 100 FPS (with 2xAA & 8xAF or 70-95 with 6xAA & 16xAF)), but when I enable the shadows the game downs to 20-30 FPS when I do a total zoom in, but still playable. Anyway, it improves too much the image quality.

OH, I play at the reslution of 1280x960.

[thrawniejoe]

ok ok, I see where Relic is seeing this from.

EVERYONE READ THIS(ATI USERS THAT IS)

ok some of you know this already but for the people that don't.

Make Sure you have Triple Buffering DISABLED

That will make the shadows better not great, but alot better than they were(not more stupid huge ass Triangles).


ALSO

Make sure TrueForm is Always OFF
Why? Because you will get a nasty freeze screen when you exit the game, forcing a reboot.


Other problems

Running The Game with
Anti-Aliasing 6x
Anisotropic Filtering 16x

Will cause CTD's(Crash to Desktops)
(that is if you can get the game to run in the first place)


Running AA will not Smooth out the Shadows for unknown reasons(ask Relic).

Thank you
Joe

[PenDragon]

I'm telling you guys there arent much differences in the shadow quality. You guys are just going off on a tangent here about it. If someone can give me a place to upload some pics i will show you some shots from a nvidia card. These shots show how similar the shadow quality are to ati cards!

[The5thElephant]

You people just don't get what us ATI users are showing! Yes the edge quality might be the same, but the fact that the edges of the ATI shadows have huge triangles sticking out a few meters is very different. Also it seems that people with 9700s have much better shadows than people with 9800s. CAN SOMEONE AT RELIC PLZ TELL US THAT THEY ARE WORKING ON THIS? It is very frustrating.

[Mnementh]

Its an ATI driver bug. Shadows on my 9700 pro with the 3.7 drivers relaly do add a system hit, and look rather pants (jagged)

[Sebas_V]

Also with shadows on my pc is slowing down hard with hw2.

Specs:
P4 2.5
1 gig mem (2700)
9700 Pro (cat 3.7)
XP pro
running at 1280*960 & auto settings for AA, AF.

[The5thElephant]

Hopefully the 3.8 drivers will fix all this. Does anyone know when they are to come out?

[protmind]

I heard the timetable is for 3.8 to be released in a month or so. It will supposedly be a huge update, not just the usual fixes.

[thrawniejoe]

4 weeks starting last friday

[Onix1]

Its funny.. I did a completly clean install of Cat 3.7 Everything right down to the registry I even cleaned the .cab file. However, when I put shadows on, the slow down was awful. I cleaned everything again, a put 3.6 back on. Performance is much improved. Think Ill wait for 3.8...

Im running with Shadows on, 4 x AA and 8 x AF at '1280 x 720'

Thats on a 9800 Pro, overclocked to 425 core speed.

[Unmei no Chibi]

Try setting AA and AF to appliance preference, the slowdown doesn't occur then.

[Mehrunes]

If you're using Catalyst 3.6 or older without editting the AdjustForBadDrivers() function, then shadows are turned off regardless of the setting in the video options dialog.

I think Nvidia cards automatically filter shadow maps, softening the edges. Relic would have to specifically add support for this on ATI cards.

[motiv-8]

Not with the 45.23 drivers, Mehrunes. One would need the 44.04 Dets for smooth shadows (and better performance as well...).

[NovaBurn]

Yeah I am runnign the 3.7 drivers on my ATI 9000 pro and I get ZERO shadows period. I think that it is just because my card is old enough that it can't show them correctly. I even have changed the driverConfig.lua file to force them on and nothing has happened. I dont even get any slightly looking shadows. I envy Ch3rokee's shadows because I want them!

I am going to possiblly updating my video card around the 20th so I will hopefully see some fixes or something by teh time I make my decision

[Onix1]

"Try setting AA and AF to appliance preference, the slowdown doesn't occur then."

Ill stick with the older 3.6 The game looks great with AA & AF, + even with Shadows on (by editing the driver file), there is no slow down with 3.6

[scottismo]

OK i got fed up with the supreme lack of evidence here so i did some quick ones. I can add to these easily.

I used a Radeon 9800 Pro with 3.7 catalyst drivers. With the 3.6 drivers I did not have any shadows at all.

These were taken with everything on full in the HW2 options with vsync off. 16xx AF and 6x AA. Truform set to application preference.

In particular note image 2,3,7 and 8. The others show poor shadows too but they are not quite as noticable.

http://jstonline.thegamingunion.com/shadows/Image1.jpg
http://jstonline.thegamingunion.com/shadows/Image2.jpg
http://jstonline.thegamingunion.com/shadows/Image3.jpg
http://jstonline.thegamingunion.com/shadows/Image4.jpg
http://jstonline.thegamingunion.com/shadows/Image5.jpg
http://jstonline.thegamingunion.com/shadows/Image6.jpg
http://jstonline.thegamingunion.com/shadows/Image7.jpg
http://jstonline.thegamingunion.com/shadows/Image8.jpg

If someone could post similar screenshots of the nvidia equivalent, then that would be very useful.

[scottismo]

In reply to thrawniejoe...


Make sure TrueForm is Always OFF
Why? Because you will get a nasty freeze screen when you exit the game, forcing a reboot.


Other problems

Running The Game with
Anti-Aliasing 6x
Anisotropic Filtering 16x

Will cause CTD's(Crash to Desktops)
(that is if you can get the game to run in the first place)


Running AA will not Smooth out the Shadows for unknown reasons(ask Relic).
I agree that running with AA does not smooth out the shadows however running with 6x AA, 16x AF and Truform on does not neccessarily crash your computer. It depends how modern it is....

...and in reply to Ch3rokee...


Here you can see two screens with the shadows enabled with my ati, and I like it, It doesn't look too bad
Are you joking? Those shadows are clearly very jagged just like the ones i show in my previous post.... I personally have never seen a shadow like that, even on a saw blade! it looks more like a shadow of a xmas tree :loco:

[Ch3rokee]

Originally posted by scottismo
...and in reply to Ch3rokee...


Are you joking? Those shadows are clearly very jagged just like the ones i show in my previous post.... I personally have never seen a shadow like that, even on a saw blade! it looks more like a shadow of a xmas tree :loco:

Did you see the shadows in Splinter Cell? They are as jagged as HW2 ones (or more), and they do very very well their job. And if I love Splinter Cell with jagged shadows, why i'm not gonna love Homeworld2 with this ones?.

Greetings

[motiv-8]

Yeah scottismo, shadows on ATI and nVIDIA cards are definitely different. I'll post up screenies later (may be tomorrow...) but they are much smoother for me...

[The5thElephant]

Ch3rokee the shadows in Splinter Cell aren't jagged AT ALL. At least not on my computer. Great example shots scottismo, I have the exact same problem, people just don't get it that the shadows are worse on an ATI even on the mothership.

[Ch3rokee]

I own Splinter Cell for the Xbox and the shadows ARE jagged like Homeworld2 ones, at least in the zones where are a high concentracion of real time shadows. I haven't seen Splinter Cell for the pc, but I assumed that they were the same, sorry if they aren't :mute:

[The5thElephant]

No for the PC they are extremely smooth. As smooth as anything else in the game. They are 'exact' shadows.

[Mehrunes]

Originally posted by The5thElephant
No for the PC they are extremely smooth. As smooth as anything else in the game. They are 'exact' shadows.

Actually, if you pay close attention, the shadows in Splinter Cell are aliased to some extent.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Mehrunes/splinter2.jpg

Splinter Cell uses the same method as HW2, only they don't limit it to self-shadowing, as you can see from the shadows cast by the chainlink fence on our protaganist.

[Slippy]

my shadows, kinda like NovaBurn's:
http://taenia.homestead.com/files/ss000141.jpg

[NovaBurn]

That is exactly what it looks like. I get dynamic lighting easily, but no shadows that cast on the ships.

[HellSpawn]

I hope you ATI owners address this issue at any support-outlet ATI has aswell. If it is indeed as simple as a botched driver, I wouldn't count on Relic getting the point across.. A collective outcry from the customers on the other hand might.

[NovaBurn]

"..All would have been slaughtered if not for the collective outcry for mercy..."

:lol: :lol:

[kagami]

I SERIOUSLY do NOT SEE ANY SHADOWS in all of the pictures! I mean are the shadows supposed to be obvious like splinter cell or what? Cos im running a geforceti4200 and have shadows on and i see no shadows being cast on any ships...:grrr:

[scottismo]

Well it is confirmed now. I have just returned from my friend's house who has a Geforce4 ti600 and while unfortunately i was not able to take any screenshots, I was able to get some close ups of the same ships which I took screenshots of yesterday. I can tell you for definate that they are very different. I don't care what any other person says. I know what i saw. The shadows are lighter (not perfect black like mine) and there are no jagged bits. The shadows are perfectly acceptable on his computer while on mine and no doubt any other ati who has enough luck to actually see them they are not. If this is a driver problem, then we shall have to hope it is fixed in the next release.

I ask you to forget talking about the performance hits and / or what you think the shadows look like in other games. These all detract from the nature of the discussion at hand. The fact that a) some people can't see shadows at all (possibly need driver updates) or the underlying problem that even if they can, they are rendered incorrectly depending on what chipset you happen to have.

It would be useful if someone with an nvidia card (prefferably recent with the latest drivers and similar settings to my screenshots) could be posted for comparison and maybe then relic/ sierra would be willing to comment further on this.

[SajuukCor]

http://screens.relicnews.com/homeworld2/demo/SajuukCor006.jpg
http://screens.relicnews.com/homeworld2/demo/SajuukCor028.jpg

^- Shadows

http://screens.relicnews.com/homeworld2/demo/SajuukCor032.jpg

^- No Shadows

Not the best in the last example of no shadows, but it's all I got up untill my next update on RP.

Oh and just for my two cents, I can do shadows quite well on the 45 Dentonator drivers on my FX 5200, but it can get really slow. I can't AA nor AF though hehe, but it's worth it.

[Mehrunes]

Originally posted by SajuukCor
Not the best in the last example of no shadows, but it's all I got up untill my next update on RP.

Oh and just for my two cents, I can do shadows quite well on the 45 Dentonator drivers on my FX 5200, but it can get really slow. I can't AA nor AF though hehe, but it's worth it.

You're using the same shadows as ATI cards and Geforce 2 and below are using. The driver config file says something about the 5200 being very slow when rendering to the depth texture.

If you want to try using the hardware buffered shadows anyway then set the lines that say "GL_setCan( eCanRenderToDepthTexture, 0 );" to "GL_setCan( eCanRenderToDepthTexture, 1 );" in the driverConfig.lua file in the Bin\ directory. There's two lines for the FX5200 for drivers 44.03 and 45.23. They come after the lines "GL_isRenderer( "5200" ) == 1".

[Chrysophylax]

I have ugly shadows with a GF4 ti4600 using 45.23 ... they aren't smooth and are black, not a smooth gray... turning them off doesn't improve performance... these were taken at a resolution of 1024*768, but I normally run the game at 1280*960... don't know what kind of AA or AF I have, I'll check that later :\

http://www.angelfire.com/linux/pics11/screenshots/ss00008.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/linux/pics11/screenshots/ss00009.jpg

(edited for spelling)

[Mehrunes]

Originally posted by Chrysophylax
I have ugly shadows with a GF4 ti4600 using 45.23 ... they aren't smooth and are black, not a smooth gray... turning them off doesn't improve performance... these were taken at a resolution of 1024*768, but I normally run the game at 1280*960... don't know what kind of AA or AF I have, I'll check that later :\

http://www.angelfire.com/linux/pics11/screenshots/ss00008.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/linux/pics11/screenshots/ss00009.jpg

(edited for spelling)

Those look like the edges are filtered to me, but it's hard to tell from those screenshots. I think that's as good as it gets, though.

EDIT: I'm borrowing that 2nd screenshot you posted, because it shows an error I want to ask if they can fix in the patch. :)

[The5thElephant]

Chrysophylax you ahve to be kidding me, those shadows look amazing compared to the ones I get with my 9800 Pro. Mine look like the ones scottismo had in his evidence screenshots earlier on page 3 I think, in other owrds horrible. You shouldn't be complaining chryso, just boost up your AA and your shadows will look amazing.

Argh this is so frustrating. I want my sexy shadows but I can't have them!

[scottismo]

Yeah man thats how those shadows are supposed to look. Well near enough anyway, its hard to tell with so many opinions on what looks good and what doesn't. But the truth is, ones like mine DON'T! :soul:

[The5thElephant]

We can only hope for a major improvement with the 3.8 drivers. I can't wait for them!

[Dazz]

Oh man there is a huge impact in frame rates use FRAPs.

Mission 1 (Loading the core scene)
1280x960 + 2x FSAA + 8x AF + shadows
Min (17fps) average (20fps) Max (40fps)

1280x960 + 2x FSAA + 8x AF + No shadows
min (78fps) average (90fps) Max (148fps)

WOW that is a huge diffrence.

Radeon 9800 @ 420/690MHz (Cat 3.7)
---------------------
1280x960 + shadows
min (18fps) average (22fps) Max (45fps)

1280x960 no shaows
min (85fps) average (100fps) Max (161fps)

Ok so could it be the shadows is CPU bottle necked, from the performanc increase when turning off AF & FSAA i would have to say so? What a Athlon XP 3200+ & nForce 2 Ultra not good enough?

[Mehrunes]

Wow. Try the Cat 3.6 drivers.

[Dazz]

Why whats so great about the Cat 3.6 drivers?

I just bought this card and didn't get it till the day the Cat 3.7 drivers came out so have never got to use the 3,6 drivers :o

[Dazz]

Just tried them and they don't enable the shadows in HW2, even if ticked :(

[Mehrunes]

Originally posted by Dazz
Just tried them and they don't enable the shadows in HW2, even if ticked :(

You have edit the driverConfig.lua file in the bin\ directory so that it says GL_setCan( eCanShadowBuffer, 1 ); in the Radeon section.

[motiv-8]

Indeed Dazz there is a bit impact using shadows.

Used Fraps on a GeForce 5600 Ultra 44.03 Dets, 1024x768, 2xAA/4xAF all other details full

Mission 1, Opening Scene - Shadows on
--------------------------------
Avg: 19.51 Min: 9 Max: 34

Mission 1, Opening Scene - Shadows off
--------------------------------
Avg: 32.643 Min: 22 Max: 50

Pretty conclusive, there. Framerates are even worse using 45.23 Dets, but it's too time consuming to compare.

[Dazz]

Still seems to give the same peformance.

[Dazz]

Originally posted by motiv-8
Indeed Dazz there is a bit impact using shadows.

Used Fraps on a GeForce 5600 Ultra 44.03 Dets, 1024x768, 2xAA/4xAF all other details full

Mission 1, Opening Scene - Shadows on
--------------------------------
Avg: 19.51 Min: 9 Max: 34

Mission 1, Opening Scene - Shadows off
--------------------------------
Avg: 32.643 Min: 22 Max: 50

Pretty conclusive, there. Framerates are even worse using 45.23 Dets, but it's too time consuming to compare. Lol a bit to you ALOT to me :D

[Mehrunes]

Still, that's only 40% drop compared to an 80% drop on a much faster system.

[Sn33k]

What program are you using there, Motiv-8?

[motiv-8]

Fraps (www.fraps.com), a wonderful little tool. You can do benchmarking and video capture with it.

[Mechcommander]

Hmm... this FRAPS tool looks really neat.. thanks for pointing it out.. It'll be in my software archive for quite a while...

[W0ps]

does anybody know why my computer hangs when I enabled shadows? I have a radeon 9600 pro with the new 3.7 drivers... just updated em... :'(

[blade|Hsc]

Originally posted by HellSpawn
However, I'm planning to get a new Radeon before HW2 is in stores.. Well, that was the plan anyhow.. If ATI isn't able to sort out this odd bug with their drivers, I may have to look elsewhere.

LoL That really makes sense.
Looking elsewhere because ATi won't support shadows in Homeworld 2?
Well, if you prefer a video card with a worse picture quality, go ahead.
I'd prefer to turn shadows off instead of accepting a lower 2D quality.
But it's your choice.
Best regards.

[Dr Bombcrater]

Originally posted by motiv-8
Indeed Dazz there is a bit impact using shadows.
For comparison, here are the same numbers from a Ti4600 using the Det 44.03 drivers:

Settings High, 2xAA, 4xAF, No Shadows
Avg: 33.450 - Min: 1 - Max: 60

Settings High, 2xAA, 4xAF, Shadows
Avg: 19.152 - Min: 1 - Max: 34

Fraps seems to have problems getting the minimum frame rate on the Ti when AA is switched on (works okay with AA off).

[Dazz]

More then likly it will stutter at the begining of the level which is where it records it.

[Chrysophylax]

Originally posted by scottismo
Yeah man thats how those shadows are supposed to look. Well near enough anyway, its hard to tell with so many opinions on what looks good and what doesn't. But the truth is, ones like mine DON'T! :soul:

My bad, on some angles they look really like huge triangles :\

Looking again, tho, they don't look so bad... :)

[Skeletor]

Question: Does the Radeon 7500 support shadows in the Homeworld 2 demo?

[Dr Bombcrater]

Originally posted by Dazz
More then likly it will stutter at the begining of the level which is where it records it.
I've tried starting the benchmarking part-way through the sequence, but it always pauses for a couple of seconds and records a min fps of 1. And it only happens with AA switched on. Bizzare.

@Skeletor: No, it doesn't look like it does.

[motiv-8]

Originally posted by Dr Bombcrater

For comparison, here are the same numbers from a Ti4600 using the Det 44.03 drivers:

Settings High, 2xAA, 4xAF, No Shadows
Avg: 33.450 - Min: 1 - Max: 60

Settings High, 2xAA, 4xAF, Shadows
Avg: 19.152 - Min: 1 - Max: 34

Fraps seems to have problems getting the minimum frame rate on the Ti when AA is switched on (works okay with AA off).

What the hell? What resolution are you running?

If it's 1024x768 I'm going to be pissed off at myself.

[motiv-8]

Originally posted by blade|Hsc


LoL That really makes sense.
Looking elsewhere because ATi won't support shadows in Homeworld 2?
Well, if you prefer a video card with a worse picture quality, go ahead.
I'd prefer to turn shadows off instead of accepting a lower 2D quality.
But it's your choice.
Best regards.

Er...sorry. But the whole deal with ATI's having better image quality is no longer true, at least in regards to 5900 vs. 9800.

[Dr Bombcrater]

Originally posted by motiv-8


What the hell? What resolution are you running?

If it's 1024x768 I'm going to be pissed off at myself.
It's 1024 :bandit:

So far I've been very pleased at how well the Ti is holding up. There's a lot of life left in the old dog.

[motiv-8]

Son of a bitch.

You're getting a better framerate than my 5600 Ultra. 60fps max, damn...

But then again you could be testing a slightly different segment than I am...

I'm running the tests again. Again I say!

[Solid]

All the people with the problem "shadows-ATI" please submit the problem to the ati driver feedback:

http://apps.ati.com/driverfeedback/index.asp

[motiv-8]

Alrighteh, redid the benchmark. This time @ 1280x960, same AA/AF settings. I ran the benchmark from the time the opening scene starts (NOT the intro cinematic, those are free frames) to when the opening briefing sent me to the Sensors Manager:

Shadows:
Min. (10) Max. (27) Avg. (15.187)

No Shadows:
Min. (1) Max. (53) Avg. (25.362)

Disappointing. I should've gotten a different card.

[Mehrunes]

Originally posted by motiv-8
Shadows:
Min. (10) Max. (27) Avg. (15.187)

No Shadows:
Min. (1) Max. (53) Avg. (25.362)

That's odd. I ran the same part with the same setting and this is what I got with shadows on...

Avg: 30.869 - Min: 22 - Max: 53

And with shadows off...

Avg: 55.658 - Min: 41 - Max: 86

Are you sure you completely uninstalled the 45.23 drivers before installing the 44.03s?

[Dr Bombcrater]

Originally posted by motiv-8
Shadows:
Min. (10) Max. (27) Avg. (15.187)

No Shadows:
Min. (1) Max. (53) Avg. (25.362)

I get these numbers at 1280:

No Shadows:
Avg: 21.467 - Min: 1 - Max: 58

Shadows:
Avg: 14.763 - Min: 1 - Max: 30

To be honest, there are so many variables here I'd be wary of taking any real meaning from these figures, other than that both cards are better than a GeForce 4 MX :devil:

[Dazz]

Originally posted by Solid
All the people with the problem "shadows-ATI" please submit the problem to the ati driver feedback:

http://apps.ati.com/driverfeedback/index.asp I did that the other day :D need more people with ATi cards to send them in so it gets noticed and improved :cool:

[Dazz]

Originally posted by motiv-8
Son of a bitch.

You're getting a better framerate than my 5600 Ultra. 60fps max, damn...

But then again you could be testing a slightly different segment than I am...

I'm running the tests again. Again I say! Yeah the GF4 can be alot better then the NV31's due to high multi texturing 4x2 vs 4x1.

:o i didn't use the built in benchmark program :o I did it from start to the sequence finishes and you can get control of the resource collector.

All setting on max detail geomenty scaling off (Shadows On)
2003-09-09 22:59:02 - Homeworld2
Frames: 4150 - Time: 170484ms - Avg: 24.342 - Min: 14 - Max: 44
1024x768 + 16x AF + 4x FSAA.

2003-09-09 23:09:39 - Homeworld2
Frames: 3972 - Time: 169438ms - Avg: 23.442 - Min: 15 - Max: 45
1280x960 + 8x AF + 2x FSAA.

2003-09-09 23:15:45 - Homeworld2
Frames: 4329 - Time: 169469ms - Avg: 25.544 - Min: 15 - Max: 49
1280x960 no AF, no FSAA.

All setting on max detail geomenty scaling off (Shadows Off)
2003-09-09 23:30:26 - Homeworld2
Frames: 17430 - Time: 171157ms - Avg: 101.836 - Min: 77 - Max: 157
1024x768 + 16x AF + 4x FSAA.

2003-09-09 23:22:25 - Homeworld2
Frames: 14399 - Time: 170422ms - Avg: 84.490 - Min: 56 - Max: 139
1280x960 + 8x AF + 2x FSAA.

2003-09-09 23:26:19 - Homeworld2
Frames: 15684 - Time: 170593ms - Avg: 91.938 - Min: 64 - Max: 141
1280x960 no AF, no FSAA.

[The5thElephant]

Sent thing to ATI, hope they fix it with 3.8!

[Dazz]

So do i, in both performance and looks :D

[motiv-8]

Originally posted by Mehrunes
Are you sure you completely uninstalled the 45.23 drivers before installing the 44.03s?

Ohh yes...

I did an uninstall, then I used Detonator R.I.P, and then I used an nVIDIA Nasty File Remover tool. It's gone, bye-bye.

I just don't get it.

[scottismo]

I have also contacted ati using that form now......

[HellSpawn]

Someone make a standard complaint we can use with ATI. Let's spam them a tad, hoping they'll fix this sooner rather than later. Spamming is popular these days. :D

[Dazz]

Well the more complaints the more they will look into it :)

[Sebas_V]

i agree with the standard complaint for ATI anybody got a good one ?

[SuccendoSLS]

My NVIDIA GeForce 4 Ti is showing no shadows, even with the option ticked. Everythign else runs beautifully. How do I get shadows?

[oMe21]

i want dynamic shadows now :weep: :cry: :boohoo:

i have a radeon 9800pro and no shadows... do we have to wait 4 ati to do something... cant do relic something?

[Mehrunes]

Originally posted by SuccendoSLS
My NVIDIA GeForce 4 Ti is showing no shadows, even with the option ticked. Everythign else runs beautifully. How do I get shadows?

Have you tried the 44.03 drivers?

[Dazz]

My firend got my Geforce4 Ti4400 and see said the shadows where blocky like ATi users have.

[The5thElephant]

Probably was using lo-res or something. Or bad drivers.

:elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:

[Dazz]

latest offical drivers and 800x600 like he always plays his games. I myself can't go below 1024x768 and since i got my RADEON 9800 i can't live w/o FSAA :D

[scottismo]

How about you work together to make a standard ati issue complaint message which you can send to people. Dont expect anyone else to do it for you. :yech:

[Stewart Ramses]

Originally posted by oMe21
i want dynamic shadows now :weep: :cry: :boohoo:

i have a radeon 9800pro and no shadows... do we have to wait 4 ati to do something... cant do relic something?

What do you want Relic to do? They can't just go and make video drivers to fix the "shadow problem."

I can deal with playing the game without shadows until I can see if CAT3.8 fixes it. I probably wont have HW2 until then anyways.

On the other hand, despite the shadows that make it look like my Ships have thornes and spines, I don't notice any performance hit. Therefore I have little need to benchmark so I can compete with everyone else. :)

[No1lives4ever]

Originally posted by Dazz
My firend got my Geforce4 Ti4400 and see said the shadows where blocky like ATi users have.


Same here, but i DID see all these problems in screenshots released by either relic or sierra. Maybe after some patches it will do fine. :P

[Stewart Ramses]

Relic should get together with Discreet (makers of 3DS Max) and the folks that make lightwave. Figure out how to include their shadow methods and you would get perfect shadows. Even a selection between area and ray-trace hehe.

[SuccendoSLS]

Have you tried the 44.03 drivers?
Yep, still no shadows.

[Sebas_V]

any news from anyone about ATI problems ?

[The5thElephant]

Yes the news is wait for 3.8 drivers and send ATI a feedback complaint.



:elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:

[NovaBurn]

I sent in a feedback deal about the ATI shadows, along with a link to this topic :D

[Thorney]

Relaying a Catalyst beta tester comment:


Report the HW2 problem(s) but I would prefer to wait til the game ships before I add anything to the list as its a demo and code can change drastically before the game ships

So I think it best to consider the HW2 demo and HW2 retail as two different applications. Since retail products always take precedence over benchmarks and demos, consider filing a new feedback report after you install the retail game. ATI has stated several times they feel feedback participation isn't up to where they'd like it to be. They do want to hear what is important to you be that bug fixes, new features or optimizations.

[Dazz]

The demo is in gone Gold condisition as such what evers wrong with the demo is wrong in the final game.

[Thorney]

Its much easier to fill out the form a second time than trying to convince several very busy people of that :)

[HellSpawn]

Originally posted by Dazz
The demo is in gone Gold condisition as such what evers wrong with the demo is wrong in the final game. ..Probably...

[Dazz]

Well thats what the MOD's said :D

[imperator]

Onix1, thats because with 3.6 shadows are disabled even if you enable them. :)