DC[1.2]FW usefulness in tier 1(stats contained)

[mdigibou]

to start off with, if this regresses to an X race >/< tau/eldar/SM i ask the mods to please close this thread. The only intent of this thread is to consider the usefulness of firewarriors in comparison to other units from other races who they should be compared to. (and by extent i will also prove reapers to be OP, but please thats not the point of this discussion)
here are some DPS numbers to begin with

Reapers(no upgrades) 450/infantry_hi
Low Med High H.Med H.Hi
13.7 12.6 12.6 11.5 7.4
Reapers(exarch) 450/infantry_hi
Low Med High H.Med H.Hi
15.8 14.5 14.5 13.2 8.5
Reapers(exarch+FS guide) 450/infantry_hi
increase all previous values by 50%

firewarriors(no upgrades) 340 health/heavy_med
Low Med High H.Med H.Hi
9.5 16.4 16.4 15.6 11.0

Space marine tacs 390 health/heavy_med
Low Med High H.Med H.Hi
8.7 10.6 9.7 11.3 9.8

Space marine tacs(upgraded flamers)
390 health/heavy_med
Low Med High H.Med H.Hi
17.5 23.1 16.7 20.0 14.7
prices are as follows

reaper stone = 50
3 man(stock) dark reaper squad = 210
+ exarch = 80/30

3 man(stock) firewarrior team = 210

4 man(stock) tactical marine team = 190
+2x flamer = 80/20

OK now that thats done with, to compare each units effectiveness, compare its dps to the similiar dps of the opposed unit, and compare hp's.

the reapers have nearly 1/3rd more hp than a tau fw, and deal 11.5 dps to a fw and the same to SM tacs.

firewarriors have the least hp of all the units, but deal greater damage to these unit types, boasting 16.4 dps to reapers, as well as 15.6 to space marines.

tacs have a medium hp range, and deal impressive damage values of 11.7 tp tau, and only 9.6 to reapers.

by statistical comparison, tau's stock firewarriors opposed to just eldar's stock reapers win by a margin of just .2(assuming both have absolute range and continually sit there shooting untill one squad remains, no reinforcements) as their 16.4 dps is nearly exactly 1.5x as strong as the reapers return damage of 11.5 but they only have 1.3x as much health.

in a similiar manner, tau's firewarriors against the eldar's dark reaper exarch reinforced squad. the reapers win out by dealing 25% more damage than before, but with the added member, each of the 4 members will be dealing the extra damage. crushing tau's forces by a considerable amount

dark reapers vs SM is simply an unfair fight. the reapers have more health, as well as poessesing more dps in comparison to armor types. SM begins with more units however, but that does not enable them to win, with inferior dps values. (again, even assuming that the tacs were in range to begin with) the exarch only makes things even uglier.

tau's firewarriors vs SM tacs (assuming both are in range, firing to begin with, and no running/dancing)
tau's forces only have 50 less health that tacs, however a squad of 4 tacs is dealing 44.2 total damage, whereas the tau is only doing 46.8 damage. the total hp difference per squad is 200, and that only 2dps difference is what causes the firewarriors to fall.

These numbers are all theoretical however, but are here for a reason.

in the tau v reapers matchup, the reapers MAY simply run away with FoF untill they get the exarch, and easily destroy the tau, considering his reinforce time is only 10 sec (1 sec more than a normal reaper/fw). and eldar will obviously, gladly spend that if they can poesses superior troops, with greater damage, health, and sight range. opposed to simply, another tau fw, which will not affect that fight.

in the tau v SM matchup, tau cannot run, as tacs will have FotM and destroy them unless the tau can manage to outsquad them and dance. tacs+flamers = gg tau.

in the eldar v SM matchup, SM has no chance as eldar has FoF, superior armor type, and more health , more range, and more sight range.


when you consider mixed arms strategies (as one always should in a balance discussion).

eldar has access to guardians, which can quickly eliminate tau's spotter, unless that spotter is the TC. Spids also are a waste of time spotting against eldar, as reapers destroy them in the same manner as SM tacs, but with less health. therefore tau's primary option is to either quickly mass fw, before the eldar gets a superior number of squads with exarchs, or to rely on his TC or kroot. the problem being kroot are melee units, and reapers rip a TC apart (not as quickly as one would assume, however)

on the flip side, an early spid + tc rush can easily be negated by a guardian rush, which can mean losing the game for an unprepared tau, his cappers cannot defend him, neither can his builders, so he must simply defend by moving as well as he can untill his units come out. then even if the tau player isnt harassed, a combination of the farseer and rangers will keep these 2 on perma dance status, with the FS eventually winning out with spells and FoF melee. the eldar then has free reign with his GU's in the tau's base to destroy his fragile builders.
therefore the tau is relegated to simply massing kroot. because the fw are fairly useless in the MU.

SM simply cannot do anything against the combination of reapers + rangers. their mobility negates even the speed of ASM, and even as expensive as reapers are, an eldar may simply outmass him because ASM are even more expensive and require more cap.

SM v tau is a broken MU, i am aware. This does not detract from the fact that when the SM tac masses, as thats mostly his best bet, the tau cannot build FW, nor should he need to. in this MU they are worthless untill tier 2.

even vs chaos as they have tier 1.5 hb's and you still probabaly dont have shields. Even commanders on ranged will melt through your "ubar shooty" army. this includes the GM, and the psyker with strip soul + ranged fire will kill your TC. then your FW are meat. again making kroot your best option

now although tau's firewarriors in tier 2 receive a good bit of damage buff, that isnt what keeps them competitive, the damage buff is simply not enough % wise to keep them from withering under HW return fire. It is their shields, which make them superior to most tier 2, and even some tier 3 shooty units (gitz).
the grenade is next to worthless, as if the opponent had time to close distance, and you dont have shields as well, you are about to get melted with your puny 340 heatlth tier 2 unit.


now i ask. why would one build fw's in tier 1, if they are simply outmassed/outshot by next to everything? here's your answer. there isn't.

my proposed solution:
make tau's firewarriors cost 200, and come in a squad of 4, but keep their reinforce cost at 70.
OR
allow one leader to be accessed in tier 1, and 2 at tier 2. this gives them utility, but not firepower.

this enables them to be used early on against other shooty units with sucess by adding more raw damage/hp to the squad, as well as not buffing their base damage, to prevent them from being OP in tier 2 with % damage buffs. it also prevents the tau player from massing them too early by adding members to a squad, and encourages them to build more squads, taking up their small tier 1 popcap(considering nearly always 2 of it is taken up by vespids , if for nothing else than detection).

please remember this is not in consideration of most of tau, and only revolves around the issue of FW use in tier 1. other issues (combination of TC+spid) can be resolved in other threads. thank you

[The_Guardman]

in the eldar v SM matchup, SM has no chance as eldar has FoF, superior armor type, and more health , more range, and more sight range
Hu, no. You are comparing basic values, and as far basics go, DR have less range and same Sight range in respect to Tacs. They get a slightly range (and good damage) boost only with optic1 reserch, going from 20 to 25 range. Tac bolters have 24 range fixed.

[Hawillis]

What I would like to see with FW, is a reduction in their armour class to inf.high, and a corresponding increase to hp to make it roughly the same.
This is because im pissed off with smite and psycic inquistion basically gibbing my men.

I would also call for increased building damage (say reduce vespids to balance).

Then, yes either more damage, or cheaper. Not significantly, but say 10%.

However if you do this, then you will need to address the tau T1 econ. The reason why FW are kk now is cos I can afford them. You would need to think about increaseing SS and jetpack build/res time to balance.

Then make them scale!

In T2 they scale v ranged - shields and adv.pulse rifles are fine. But if the enemy is melee like zerks. DEAR. I could attatch a rep of zerks just crapping on me. I was prepared. I had take and hold. I had spids for disruption, snares around. I had a pathfindersquad ready and my TC was healthy.
The zerks run up, decap the point and kill my army. Why? FW dont do enough damage when you consider how slow they are.
FW are unforgiving, like IG IMO and to conpensate, I want to see them have some guns.

Now, v eldar, a DR spam v FW spam, we know who will win. Thing is, the TC and vespids are so good at what they do, the tau actually win. Therefore again, yes buff the FW but dont forget to nerf otherthings too.

In short, I would not go with the leader thing - I see this as T2 and besides they have a power cost!
I would be ok with cheaper FW but I think then they will be spammed and it will take away the 'unforgiving aspect'. If FW are cheaper, letting them get killed wil hurt me less.
Hence I would actually go for the damage buff, because I dont think the % damage buff in T23 would make them OP v melee, if you were worried that they cou;dnt lose a shooting war with the shield, make that 30% damage reduction.

[Warp Holder]

make tau's firewarriors cost 200, and come in a squad of 4, but keep their reinforce cost at 70.



I agree 100%. That will make rushing tactics think twice.

[Hawillis]

Be fair though, we often dont reinforce FW past 4 members. Therefore all your doing is makeing them cost 50 rec instead of 70 for the most part. IMO this is too much.

[4Servant]

I agree 100%. That will make rushing tactics think twice.
Rusing tau is already impossible 95% of the time.

[SirNick]

in the eldar v SM matchup, SM has no chance as eldar has FoF, superior armor type, and more health , more range, and more sight rangeHu, no. You are comparing basic values, and as far basics go, DR have less range and same Sight range in respect to Tacs. They get a slightly range (and good damage) boost only with optic1 reserch, going from 20 to 25 range. Tac bolters have 24 range fixed.You're off on the numbers there -- Reaper Launchers start at 30 range, then go 35 with Optics 1 and 40 with Optics 2. Tac Bolters start and remain at range 25.

Fire Warriors start at 35 range and go to 40 with Advanced Pulse Rifles, but only have sight range of 15 compared to the standard 25.

So yeah, inbetween FoF and the extra range, there's no real reason that Dark Reapers should remain in Bolter range for long at all.

[Vytae]

Tau only get rushed when they allow it. There's a reason they cant build turrets.

And you cant compare and balance 3 races troops without factoring in the other 4 races equivalents.

And lastly,on paper they may look medium but in practice they are very deadly indeed. Given a single spotter unit (or even a LP getting trashed) and 2 squads of fw will rip up 4 tac squads before they close. And completley erradicate however many guardsmen squads you want.

[Inst]

how often does SM go Sniper vs Eldar, anyways?

[Zany Reaper]

make tau's firewarriors cost 200, and come in a squad of 4, but keep their reinforce cost at 70.I don't agree much. I thought that the point of Tau was to make the Tau stuff like glass cannons, in that they deal a lot of damage, but can't take that much.

Currently, I think that for what they are, Fire warriors are bad value. However, I don't think they've been represented as best as they could've been.
For a start, IMO - fire warriors are too tough (Kroot appear to be harder to kill despite their lower HP but that's because they're melee units).
My suggestion is that Fire warriors are nerfed by reducing their HP to something like 260HP, as well as giving them infantry_high armour instead. However, they'd be buffed in the same way by making their pulse rifle reload times go into sync with their firing animations (reload time of one second), & maybe adjust their damage a bit to compensate.
That way, they're a lot more fun & actually do stuff, rather than making them more like Space marines...

[Inst]

Vytae, paper has its assets. Reality involves many variables, including reaction time, player skill, micro skill, terrain, placement, and so on. Paper can cut all of these away and give us something that is not completely accurate, but indicative.

[Warp Holder]

Given a single spotter unit (or even a LP getting trashed) and 2 squads of fw will rip up 4 tac squads before they close.

16 Tacs being ripped by 6 FWs? No, they may take casualties, but once they get close enough to the FWs it's over for the Tau glass cannons.


And completley erradicate however many guardsmen squads you want.
Add one GL to the GMs and the tables will turn.
If FWs are OP, GLs are obscene in comparison.

[wayfarer]

Tau Gunship that baby is obscene. Good disruptor and an instagib ability for infantry.

Tau Fire Warriors are the last thing that need a buff.

Good range and Firepower from the start and good scaleing.

Actual if grenade launcher are enough to deal with Tau than I play another game.

[Melonplant]

Actuallyyy... Paper is more useful than letting a trashy player go against a godlike player and then viewing his replay "omg guardsmen" (er, wasn't addressing you warp holder)

It's pathetic that against eldar reapers, my tac marines just become gimped flayed one.

Come on guys! Tie up that squad! Oh...Ohhh....Oh god...noo.

Lets turn dark reapers in to simple tac marines of the eldar. Similar range, damage, and cost of a tac marine. When they reach t2, they can be equipped with "bolter" type weapons that give them their original range, maybe some extra damage than original, and the optics upgrade will buff both non hw dam and hw damage.

Exarchs should be tossed to T2, with some sort of compensation. How are these exarchs being warped in WITHOUT the soul shrine in the first place?

[Inst]

Gren launchers have difficulty firing at max range, which limits their offensive usefulness. And their inherent stats (good against infantry due to splash, extremely bad versus vehicles and buildings due to splash) limit their offensive ability further.

Warp Holder, FWs can hold on versus Marines by themselves. They'll have an early advantage due to killing off marines as they charge, and even then, all the FWs have to do is to run away while the marines charge into a snare trap. The FWs can also run in different directions, and if there's any remaining FW groups that's not being entangled by marines, they can start firing at the marines.

Tau FWs, imo, are fine at the onset. Their range advantage make them great units to start with, so you basically have a tier 1.5 unit at the start. Later on, they're pretty average units, barely scaling up with the tiers.

[Zany Reaper]

Fire Warriors are not fine, they're crap! They are bad value in T1. They're only useful once you get researches for then in T2.

As I said, they need to be 'exaggerated' ingame. Perhaps using my glass cannon suggestin would be useful.

Either that, or make them slightly cheaper.


Regarding Dark Reapers - I missed the old DOW ones which were incredibly powerful against heavy infantry. Maybe they should instead be shifted to T2, but have a fairly decent damage & buff, particularly to heavy infantry.

[Hawillis]

^^ or they could just out shoot them, cos FW suck (for cost!).

[Golden Dragoon]

The zerks run up, decap the point and kill my army. Why? FW dont do enough damage when you consider how slow they are.

Thats to do with how imba the Zerks are, not how bad the FW are you have a TC with snare traps can still help you fight them off. Firewarriors do deal alot of damage, just not to imba Zerks but they still do decent damage against them.


in the tau v SM matchup, tau cannot run, as tacs will have FotM and destroy them unless the tau can manage to outsquad them and dance. tacs+flamers = gg tau.

Use the TC with his snares + Flamer OR you can go
Vespid+TC = gg sm. Tau Firewarriors wipe the floor with SM tacts you have the range and more damage all you need is a spotter, SS are good at that, sm detection in tier 1 isn't cheap.

To get flamers the SM also have to build a Armory. 90 req and 10p for a flamer marine so it's not cheap in tier 1.

Tau have cheaper builders,cappers and a much cheaper barracks. So they shouldn't get Firewarriors with 4 members 200 req that is just ridiculous.

Tau Firewarriors are fine at the moment they don't need to be changed.

[Inst]

Melonplant, it's fine. It's always been so that SM has trouble vs Eldar in tier 1, but becomes far more effective tier 2. If SM wants to counter reapers, or for that matter, Fire Warriors, they get snipers, who have a natural range advantage and have the nasty effect of instagibbing units every 9 seconds.

Zany Reaper, you have a range advantage over everyone else. If you use micro, you can end every almost engagement early on without taking heavy casualties.

[Slow_Runner]

Another note on the cold hard facts:

- upgraded Tactical flamers do not belong to comparisons with T1 things in any shape or form. Flamers themselves are T 1.5, requiring the Armoury and the Targeters upgrade is T2.

[Inst]

Aren't Fire Warriors like T 1.5 themselves? Tau does not have an exact analogue to T 1.5; the closest thing to a Tau T 1.5 is Snare Trap.

[Warp Holder]

FWs can hold on versus Marines by themselves. They'll have an early advantage due to killing off marines as they charge, and even then, all the FWs have to do is to run away while the marines charge into a snare trap. The FWs can also run in different directions, and if there's any remaining FW groups that's not being entangled by marines, they can start firing at the marines.

Let's imagine the FWs and the Tac Marines are completely alone. No other factors are involved (no FC, no TC, nothing).
FWs spot tacs (they have the sight range of a mole). Both start shooting. 3 FWs start to dance, but they are VERY slow, have no FotM and there's still a faster, full tac squad (8 marines) firing at them.
The other 3 FWs? Under attack from the second tac squad.
All FWs lost. 3-5 tacs lost.

Now let's image the FWs have somehow a spotter (LP, for example). FWs shoot. Tacs charge and shoot. Okay, they lost 2-3 marines, but they are now in range. See above to know what happens.

[farseer_derek]

to above

focus fire

:) if they dont reinforce their tac squads they will lose one if you focus fire, also with balance you can't look at things in a vacuum, the sm vs tau mu is broken in taus favour because of tc + pids, you gotta take that into consideration, sure tacs may beat fw for cost but when those very same tacs are snared by the tc, sonic pulsed by the pids and hit by the fw from their maximum range they tend to die pretty damn fast...

[Inst]

dude, FWs are speed 16. They're the same speed as Marines.

[farseer_derek]

also faster than marines under a snare ^^

[VidiVici]

WHAAA?
Try playing as SM vs Tau you'll see how fast your tacs fall to FW.

Tau get jumpers, good CC units, nasty ranged units, infils and snare traps in T1.
If you can't manage to build a decent army with that you should really reconsider your strat.

[Melonplant]

HAH! You do NOT use snipers against Tau. Please don't EVER suggest something so horrible. My scouts will die honorable CHEAP deaths, not because they ran up to a fire warrior squad, got spotted upon setup time beginning, and plunked by target acquired, or a second of TC fire, plus vepids tying them up, or just a millisecond of fire warrior shots. One scout sniper is much more expensive than the one fire warrior he MIGHT kill in the last seconds of his existence.

[mdigibou]

mods i would like to ask you to close this thread, its only been half of a day, and already people miss the point that sheer firewarriors are the sake of arguement.

people have already relegated to tier 2 zerker imba, TC snares, involving spotters, etc etc etc.
thus the point of the arguement has been missed and now i see why people stop playing this game. no one is capable of sitting down and independantly discussing why things are the way they are and seperating facts and #'s from opinion.

my fact. firewarriors in tau's tier 1 are not worth 210 req for a 3 man squad.
this fact has been lost in nonsense and dribble involving misquotes, and other things aside from pure numbers of value.

therefore i restate, can the mods please lock this thread as it has already been derailed and currently has no focus or objective any longer.

[farseer_derek]

mdigibou, you can't say that fw cost too much because the fact is they don't, different races in the gasme have varyingly effective econs and harasses, if one race, such as tau, has a strong econ and a strong harass (which they have both) then their units in T1 might be a tad overexpensive.

the fact is that FW aernt overexpensive, their range makes up for (in your opinion) their lack of health (which isnt true in quite a few x vs y vacuums due to armour class) and they have high dps (as you have proven, higher than reapers which for some reason alot of people think have higher o_O)

firewarriors in taus teir 1 ARE worth 210 req due to jetpacking,invis cappers and arguably the best harass in the game, this denys the enemy req and gives you mapcontrol, if you made fw cost less im afraid they would be borderline imba again like 1.1 and 1.0

you also can't argue eldar can just reaper spam and it owns firewarrior spam because as eldar you go for a 2 reaper build or a 3 reaper build but as tau against eldar you always go

tc + pids > fw later

nothing further your honour ^^ (too much watching boston legal ae :P)

[Inst]

melonplant, which is why you have marines standing by the snipers to provide close range support. the snipers counter fire warriors; marines, asms, whatever, counter vespids.

and if they run up to fire warrior range, you have no one to blame but yourself for being an idiot. it's not my fault you don't understand how to use spotting squads and skull probes.

[wayfarer]

You say they are not cost effective. :slap:

What should I say about Guardsman?
THey need a hero, upgrades and extra weapons to get effective (Squad Tax). While FW come out combat ready.

This is all in a Vacuum. The Guardsman don't perform that bad for their cost but saying that Fw are too expensive is just strange.

[Inst]

Guardsmen suck. They're only competitive when fully-upgraded and fully kitted out, that's 300 for the guardsmen, some 250 for the grenadiers, another 70 for the sergeant, and then all the goddamn upgrades.

[Vytae]

FW are cost efficent,and if you don't believe so try playing another race non-DC versus DC races.

Paper is rarely a good indicator,simply because it assumes vaccum. In turnbased or more heavily paper-rock-scissor games that works,but DoW is anything but P-R-S.

Of course massed Zerks will often beat FW,hello their tier 2. The proof is in the pudding,with proper support zerks get OWNED by said tier one unit.

And mdigibou it will take 2 tacs per fw killed thats 100 req to 70. Thats called cost effective. CSM are about the same,Guardsmen are far worse (the entire squad will be destroyed) Guardians are inbetween with shootaboyz. And well,nothing is more cost effective then NW so thats moot. When you throw in heros in gets even farther in tau corner.

[Inst]

tbh, Vytae, I see what mdgibou is talking about. Pure FW mass is weak this patch; they're weaker than marines by a larger margin. In order to beat Marines, you need other Tau forces, like Guile (Sonic Boom!), the TC, and the Kroot.

However, I don't think you need balance changes to fix this problem. The other Tau units offset this problem and keep things balanced.

[Melonplant]

Show me a round where a scout sniper kills more than one fire warrior before dying, and I'll show you a bad tau player. Your so-called "spotter" is probably dead too.

I think a small reduced squad tax should be applied to fire warriors. Something like a 200 cost for 3 fire warriors. This would further encourage more squads before reinforcing.

But really, you're paying an increased price so that they don't mass so fast. One fire warrior squad isn't so bad...but if you can get 4 quickly, it would hurt other races T1.

[Inst]

Melonplant, is 1097 your real automatch rank? Dude, every Tau player who knows what he's doing masses FW squads. This is because mass FW squads have better dancing ability to negate melee, whereas one large FW squad gets creamed by 4 angry scouts.

The scouts have range 40 and attack every 9 seconds! How difficult is it to fire off one shot, then have them run away? The only chase infantry available to Tau, barring the usually unused Stealth Suit, are the Vespids and the Tau Commander.

[Melonplant]

No 1097 isn't my automatch score, it's my most offensive user name.

And why do you talk about the 9 second reload time as if it were a plus? And its only a 4 second set up time. Not like anything can kill you in that time period. The TC has already gone scout hunting earlier in the round. He laughs at snipers and kills them faster than they can get a shot off.

And if they do, oops! Hes a commander. Headshots don't affect him. Scout snipers are a joke against tau JUST because of the tau commander. I feel bad for going off topic from fire warrior cost effectiveness, but i can not stand by and let readers minds be polluted.

Now, in an all firewarrior build, scout snipers MIGHT be useful. Assuming the tau player is using spotters as effectively as you are (scouts los 30, sniper range 40, Tau range 35) And that tau guns do about as much damage to scouts as scout snipers do to them (snipers do .2 more damage to fire warriors than they do to them!) doesn't make the particularly cost effective. You're paying power to get an even fragiler glass cannon like a fire warrior.

But really. I'd be more than happy to watch a replay of skillful scout sniper usage.

Now as for fire warrior cost effectiveness, if the spacemarine player goes scout snipers then they are very cost effective.

[Inst]

What does it matter if he went scout hunting? You'll still have enough platforms left to upgrade. And the TC's own damage is horrible (20 dps on a 300 res platform). Unless he goes up to flamer, all he has vs scout snipers is his target acquired ability. If he does get flamers, you can just melee him with your escort infantry.

The 9 second reload time is a plus because you deal massive damage in 9 seconds, instead of dealing small amounts of damage every half second as with many weapons. That is, you kill off 2-3 of his fire warriors before he can attack, then you can pull back without wasting potential firepower as he tries to kill off your scout snipers.

Spotting is easy with skull probes. You needed skull probes anyways to kill off his stealth suits, so why don't you have skull probes? If you think he'll spot you with his vespids, his vespids have bad sight range. Unless he has something else nearby to add to spotting power, like a stealth suit, you can open on the vespids instead of the fire warriors.

[farseer_derek]

it's not my fault you don't understand how to use spotting squads and skull probes.

and how exactly do you have those spooting squads/probes survive when tau always uses vespids?

[Inst]

vespids have limited sight range. Unless they bring the vespids to the front, the skull probes are safe. If they do bring the vespids to the front, the vespids are probably in your firing range.

[farseer_derek]

vespids have limited sight range. Unless they bring the vespids to the front, the skull probes are safe. If they do bring the vespids to the front, the vespids are probably in your firing range

and then said pids sonic boom your scout snipers! guess what! snipers have set up time! that means they can't fire for 4 seconds after they stand up! yay! this means you can (with really good micro :) ) keep a large amount of scout snipers on the ground with just pids + tc jumping in and owning them as they dance + fw wtfpwning them from ubar range.....

snares so they cant escape :S

also in DC there is this thing which melee squads can do called tapping, it is where the melee squad engages several squads with just a few units or so to each squad, this means they can tie up more squads! yay! less losses for tau!

this is getting off topic... although the "topic" in the original post was never really clarified as his justification for FW being overexpensive was false

[Zany Reaper]

my fact. firewarriors in tau's tier 1 are not worth 210 req for a 3 man squad.
this fact has been lost in nonsense and dribble involving misquotes, and other things aside from pure numbers of value.Yup. People are missing the point that they're bad value at the moment.


firewarriors in taus teir 1 ARE worth 210 req due to jetpacking,invis cappers and arguably the best harass in the game, this denys the enemy req and gives you mapcontrol, if you made fw cost less im afraid they would be borderline imba again like 1.1 and 1.0Fire warriors don't jetpack. Fire warriors aren't invisible, & are certainly not good at harassing either. That's the other things tau get which aren't really much to do with fire warriors :)

Basically, Fire warriors out-perform Space marines provided that there isn't a melee thing nearby. If there is that will attack the FWs, then they're as good as dead.

Essentially, Fire warriors need to be improved slightly in some way, or just changed. I think they're too tough for what they are & as of such should be nerfed in HP, but either be upped in squad size (with reduced cost to compensate) or have their reload time synchronised with their firing animation.

[farseer_derek]

zany, your missing the point, what i meant by that was that fw dont cost much when you take taus entire t1 into consideration, invis cappers = good eco, excellent harass = not as good as eco for enemy, infantry owning commander = bad eco for enemy again, if fw cost less then idk wtf will happen :S

[VidiVici]

Inst you do realize that a sniper scout costs 80req/20pow.

Lets play the vacuum game
8 FW vs 7 Scouts: (both 560 req)

Time Scouts need to kill the FW
340 HP/FW * 8FW = 2720 HP
16.6 Dps vs H.Med * 8 Scouts = 132.8 Dps
=> Kill in 20.5s
With reload you need 27s + setup = 31s

Time FW need to kill Scouts
295 HP/Scout * 7 scouts = 2065 HP
16.4 Dps * 8 FW = 131.2 Dps
=> Kill in 15.8 sec
With reload you need 16.5s + setup = 18.5s

This means you left your precious FW get fired upon by for at least 12.5s.
You have been pwnd by better micro. No imba just a better player.

Nots that I didn't even take into account:
1) The power cost of snipers
2) The cost of the sniper tech (75req/35pow)
3) The build time of a sniper scout (29s total) vs 9s for a FW

This to compensate for the meatshield extra scouts can provide.

I can give you some tips tough:
- Try to have 2 or 3 smaller squads instead of 1 big squad for more flexible micro.
- Keep your FW as support for your commander.
- Lock retreating Scouts with snare traps.
- Use the SS to check your blind spots.
- Move forward! It's harder to reset while falling back than to kill off retreating units.

[Inst]

Check morale. Fire Warriors have a 64% chance of breaking in 1 salvo. Hell, the same applies for Vespids. It doesn't amtter anyways, you probably have the rest of your army offering support functions. It'll spot for you, and the Fire Warriors will learn what it means to be outranged by 5 points.

4 sniper scouts vs 6 FWs:

-Round 1 (T:0): Morale armor blocks 50% damage. 1 FW dies. 1 squad breaks. FWs rush towards the sniper scouts, but the sniper scouts pull back.

-Round 2 (T:9): Morale armor blocks 50% damage. 1 FW dies. 1 squad breaks. FWs rush towards the sniper scouts, but the sniper scouts pull back.

Rinse repeat, at 54 seconds, all the FWs have died.

[Melonplant]

No no no no. 1 squad breaks, TC jumps in, scouts die before they can leave the tau commanders LOS. No micro will make them live. TC kills scouts way too fast for retreating to work. Now that he knows you have wasted all your res on dumb scout snipers, tau player proceeds to tech and tanks with his TC, who also has 40 range and doesn't give a crap about snipers.

And as all good things must come to an end, your skull probe WILL be spotted sooner or later by vespids, and it will be destroyed by fire warriors decent and effective range, along with the tau commanders damage.

I wish i played against the tau player who continually chases after scout snipers. I'd much rather they do that than attack my economy.

Really. If you want to discuss scout snipers and their many many many functions, make a new thread.

While fire warriors don't have the option to add squad leadersl like exarchs, at least they aren't power hogs. If you want to compare them to dark reapers, the squad becomes really useful after a 20 power investment. Perhaps rather than reducing FW costs, exarch costs should be increased.

We do all agree tac marines lose or are at least equal on cost efficiency in T1 right?

[VidiVici]

Fair enough.

But this is still a tiny window for SM's:
- A huge amount of resources need to be invested to counter FW's.
- 64% for 2 snipers is a gamble there must be at least 3 snipers on each FW squad to have some certainty of breaking (89.6%)
- As stated previously it only works on a Tau player relying solely on FWs throw a kroot/Vespid squad in the mix and you'll get a very different picture.

[mdigibou]

i cant believe people are argueing that tacs just sitting there shooting should beat/equal the most shooty races most shooty unit.

<_< fluff in DC might as well be non-existant.

tacs, in case you didnt notice, outperform FW squad by squad by a very fair margin, considering they have 200 more hp, and only 2 dps less..... and they cost less, AND have FotM, as well as a larger sight range and independant firing range

reapers, in case you didnt notice, have FoF, as well as damage buildings moderately well (MUCH better than fw), as well as having less setup time (very important in shooty wars), and even more hp AND on top of that, have moderate DPS values for vehicles as well... not to mention they scale WELL into tier 3 with armor AND damage.

not to mention, reapers have a superior armor type. infantry_high is overlooked as one of the better armor types seeing as most units do less damage to that than they do to Hinf_med.


what im basically saying is, FW cost too much for their utility/damage in tier 1. give them SOMETHING to make them not just be "decent shooters". tacs are a good bread and butter unit that can be powerful, dependable, and adaptable, as well as getting upgrades in health, damage, armor, heavy weapons. reapers have good damage, and excellent survivability with FoF and good utility by being able to damage buildings and vehicles reliably as well.

Fw have none of these traits. they move at standard unit speed, they have setup time so no FotM, they dont damage vehicles, they dont damage buildings, they are expensive, and they dont scale in armor untill tier 3(MAYBE), and they dont scale in damage well enough to outshoot any form of heavy weapons. the only thing that makes them even SOMEWHAT viable is their leader options tier 2.

and yet they cost more than any other shooty unit besides reapers(only because of aspect stone.. but really this cost is negated due to eldar OMFG req eco and 80 req lp's)?

[Melonplant]

...Huh. Dark reapers are infantry high. My view on them is totally altered...

How did that get through the balance testers? We're they high?

I'm gonna pull it bak to tacs. If you're going to say that reapers are made better because of eldars cheap economy (builders, aspect, lps) Then surely tacs are nerfed because of their expensive t1 (servs, 100 lps, 250 rax)

I would take reapers over fire warriors anyday. The sh*tty setup time is a killer too. (damn my "c" key is breaking)

But i'm pretty sure the high cost of fire warriors is to encourage kroot usage. An increase in usability of fire warriors besides "run here while getting stabbed in the back" would be nice. Maybe an ability called heart of the horse. It'd be cool.

[mdigibou]

lol ya.

well see tau has the same problems.. 100 req lp's with less durability, gens arent uber cheap(150 compared to 135), and builders are nowhere NEAR as durable as servitors, and they cost 65.

not to mention tacs are still cheaper than fw's and come 4 to a bunch. for better stats, and very comparable damage. even not considering the rest of either race..

[Spekkio]

You can't consider a unit in isolation, but in context of the army.

With the TC flamer breaking morale, snares to slow squads down/reduce their refire rate, and vespids to disrupt/tie up squads, FWs are just fine as they are. Their building damage might be lackluster, but that's because it's meant to be used in conjunction with vespid shred. Buff FW building damage, and shred + FW mass = insta-dead HQ in t1. In t2 they get a damage upgrade, shield drones, and pwnage mark target. In Mont'ka t3 they are lacking, but CS are supposed to replace them as your main army in that tech tree. In Kauyon they get inf_heavy_high armor, a shitton more HPs, and 50 range.

Tacs should never get close enough to shoot you. They have 25 range, FWs have 35 range. That's a lot of ground to cover in t1 when there aren't any transports, and SM doesn't have any abilities that disrupt your troops. Not to mention at least one of those squads will almost always be broken due to the TC's flamer.

Sure, in a vacuum reapers are better. But if Eldar got pathfinders, vespids, and a commander with awesome support abilities, everyone would be screaming nerf Eldar more than they already are.

Reapers are inf_high because DoW vanilla had hard counters.

[farseer_derek]

thatsa it in a nutshell really, ^ is right

[Zany Reaper]

Therefore Fire warriors need to be buffed in some way as they're currently bad value!

[wayfarer]

Yeah you want them back to their first DC 1.1 stats. In all fairness than Necron Warriors should get their old strength back too.:wtf:

[Spekkio]

Therefore Fire warriors need to be buffed in some way as they're currently bad value! Yea, a unit that scales all the way into t3 is terrible value. Before you pull the reapers argument, keep in mind that they have longer range than reapers in every tier, have more hps in t2 w/ shield drones, a shitton more hps in t3 with inf_heavy_high armor, ethereal 200 hp buff, and hp buff from metallurgy, do more damage, and only need 3 cheap, quick upgrades while reapers need 4.

Man, those FWs sure do suck. I think I should opt for more kroot that can't scale past very early t2.

[Hawillis]

Yeah, they get all that but they cost 70 rec. They are slow and their hp is low enough to nearl get instagibbed. More hp, inf heavy armour class as a balance and 15% more damage.
May want to reduce shield % as well.

Yeah, they scale into T3. Lets compare them to a terminator. Or karskyn. Oh wait, they are not that good! And thats if I go kayun. So I'll get them after the kroothounds then. The single impressive thing about them is their range, and how often do you get to use this? Not enough IMO for their damage.

As said zerks pwn them. And I do not subscribe to the zerks are OP book. 610 hp should be killable but they are not.

[wayfarer]

Zerks pretty much pwn everything in T2. If there is a problem with them post a balance Issue. Guardman can't use the full Range of the Grenade launcher too so what, the best they can do is run away and they don't get Snare traps?
Karskyn are slightly op and friggin T3. So what do you expect from Fws they are T1?

[Warp Holder]

Guardman can't use the full Range of the Grenade launcher too so what "Attack ground" estimate position of the FWs. No FW survived.



Therefore Fire warriors need to be buffed in some way as they're currently bad value!


Not a bad idea, but as a Mont'ka exclusive research, like Optics and Metallurgy are Kauyon.


So what do you expect from Fws they are T1?

We expect them to be an useful unit even in T4.
Nothing more.

[wayfarer]

Cool I want laser beams for Guardman coming out their eyes.
Serious what's here still to discuss. FW are damned strong you want more fine than Tau and Necron can play DC alone.

[farseer_derek]

look, you can't pull the reaper argument which was one of the main points of this post, reapers beat FW after a 80/30 add-on per squad, and that is only barely, pids will wtfpwn those reaps and tc will jump in, snare em (bye bye FoF) and flamer their asses :S

[Zany Reaper]

They are slow and their hp is low enough to nearl get instagibbed.They're not slow, they have the same speed as most infantry.

I don't think they need a HP increase. These aren't as tough as Space marines after all. If anything, they should have a HP decrease.
However, they either need to be cheapened in addition to this, or given a damage buff.

[Apathetic]

Actually reapers are probably the closest comparable unit to FW, making comparisons to them more applicable than some of the other arguments going on in this thread.

And as for Spekkio's "3 upgrades vs 4 upgrades" argument, it goes both ways. Those 4 upgrades benefit all Eldar infantry without restriction - meaning you can change your strategy on the fly and retain all of the effectiveness of your original investment. Whereas the PtE 'APR' and Kauyon 'Targeting Optics' upgrades only affects FW (and SS, woohoo!), and the Kauyon 'Metallurgy' upgrade only affects FW and vehicles. But back in T1 the Eldar research a single inexpensive (50/50) infantry-wide mobility upgrade whereas Tau has to drop 35 power anytime a FW squad is threatened in melee. :bleh:

Personally, I think FW are fine with the exception of the Mont'Ka path. A price reduction would be nice but Tau already 'enjoys' the mixed blessing of cheap elites. I'd rather have the staple unit I'm forced to rely on from beginning to end stand up on its own two feet a little better in T3 and beyond.

[Spekkio]

(and SS, woohoo!) With the optics upgrade, SS can outrange the detection radius of turrets and Waagh! banners. With the HP buffs, they are pretty much as good as Fire Dragons when it comes to base harassment.


Personally, I think FW are fine with the exception of the Mont'Ka path. I agree. They could use another damage research in t3 in this path. Or they could just make CS stronger so that they can do something other than base harass.


and the Kauyon 'Metallurgy' upgrade only affects FW and vehicles. Krootox, the Greater Gnarloc, and the TC as well.


But back in T1 the Eldar research a single inexpensive (50/50) infantry-wide mobility upgrade whereas Tau has to drop 35 power anytime a FW squad is threatened in melee. :bleh: Or they could use sonic pulse which is free. In t3, unless it's a melee elite you could just let inf_heavy_high FWs get meleed as a meat shield while kroot hounds devour the squad.


However, they either need to be cheapened in addition to this, or given a damage buff. FWs are cheaper than any MEQ shooty unit in the game. Maybe not to purchase them in t1, but they never need heavy weapons upgrades and they only need minimal and cheap researches to scale.

When was the last time a Chaos player got all the researches in the armory and sac circle in a 1v1? I can't remember the last time I DIDN'T get all the researches from the PtE, save for Feral Leap if I go Mont'ka and never made kroot.


Yeah, they scale into T3. Lets compare them to a terminator. Or karskyn. Oh wait, they are not that good! And thats if I go kayun. So I'll get them after the kroothounds then. The single impressive thing about them is their range, and how often do you get to use this? Not enough IMO for their damage. You get to use it plenty, and kroot hounds w/ shapers will only lose to Assault Terminators and Ogryns in melee. Granted it takes a while to get them up to speed, but the same goes for most other races, Eldar and IG in particular. By t3, you should have at least 2x pathfinders for sight range and mark target, and some snares set up as fall back points. How exactly are 25 range terminators supposed to shoot you with 50 range FWs and 50 range skyrays shooting at them, mark target from pathfinders, Hounds tying them up, and even if they DO get within range, you activate an ability that reduces your damage intake by 50% on an inf_heavy_high unit.

Seriously, what are you smoking when you say that FWs are bad and then use the Kauyon tree vs SM to support your argument?


As said zerks pwn them. And I do not subscribe to the zerks are OP book. 610 hp should be killable but they are not. Again, mark target. You may not like that FW damage is scaled so that it NEEDS mark target, but if you buff FW damage then this ability becomes an "I-WIN" button.

FWs can most certainly deal with zerks. The problem is Chaos's tech speed (only needs to build 1 squad + commander in t1, whereas Tau needs to build 3-4 squads in t1), not the strength of zerks vs. FWs.

Now, if you want to buff FW damage to infantry in a vacuum by 25% and then nerf mark target to 50%, then that's another discussion. I personally don't think that's necessary, though.

[mdigibou]

you guys think a TC can hit reapers? i lol'd

and spids chase one squad.. oh wait shit where did those rangers go? SHIT there goes all my morale.

then if theres more than one reaper squad they turn around and wtfpwn the spids. the FoF is what makes the reapers infinitely better.

and not to mention 5 range doesnt mean jack shit when reapers cover that distance in .5 seconds and setup and last longer in a fight.

man forget this, you guys are clearly missing the point and argueing stupid shit that doesnt even make sense. like LOL TC>REAPERS. well ya, and a FC is > tacs.. wtf is your point?

[D153453D]

Again, mark target. You may not like that FW damage is scaled so that it NEEDS mark target, but if you buff FW damage then this ability becomes an "I-WIN" button.

Serisouly, 2 squads of pathfinders and Mark Target is amazing with only a 45 sec recharge that lasts for 20 sec!

It's hard to get them up to speed in Tier 1 becuase they're pretty expensive, but I don't have a problem with them later in the game.

[Apathetic]

With the optics upgrade, SS can outrange the detection radius of turrets and Waagh! banners. With the HP buffs, they are pretty much as good as Fire Dragons when it comes to base harassment.Lol come on Spek, that's a bit of a reach given the original EvT upgrades argument. Tau can upgrade FW and SS in 3 researches, Eldar upgrade their entire infantry force in 4. You tell me who got the better deal. :nyah:

And krootoxes and the chicken take veh_cap so I just bundle them together under the 'vehicle' catch-all. TC's extra hp doesn't mean he's tanking anything now, he just doesn't die the second you take your eye off him in T3-4 firefights.

[Warp Holder]

Tau can upgrade FW and SS in 3 researches, Eldar upgrade their entire infantry force in 4. Why not upgrade KCs as well with those upgrades?
Broadsides are already very powerful, but I miss the anti horde weapon they were.
What about an AI rail submunition, working like the standard one, but with AoE and very little damage to vehicles, but lethal against infantry?

[Spekkio]

Tau can upgrade FW and SS in 3 researches, Eldar upgrade their entire infantry force in 4. You tell me who got the better deal. :nyah: Tau, and here's why:

1. The Tau researches take a fraction of the time the Eldar researches do, even though it's "only 1 less." Also, less researches means more money saved for other stuff.
2. Tau doesn't have to tech from the same building as said researches, so they don't slow down tech into t4 (Tau has one of the quickest t4 in the game if you go Mont'ka, and Kauyon isn't particularly slow, either).
3. With those 3 upgrades, Tau units are STILL > Eldar units.
4. Realistically, Eldar players don't have banshees on the field. So we're still talking about upgrading GU, Reapers, and WS. Tau upgrades FWs, SS, all units that use vehicle cap, and the TC. And guess what? FWs, SS, and Tau vehicles >>> GU and reapers in equivelent tiers. WS will of course win, but they are a t3 elite and should not be compared to FWs.
4a. The units that aren't affected by these researches scale by other means. Specifically, kroot carnivores scale by eating and attaching shapers (and feral leap), and vespids scale by getting a strain leader which adds a shitton to their survivability. Kroot hounds don't need to scale other than attaching a shaper.
5. Eldar don't get an Ethereal that gives every single unit a 200 hp boost and morale boost. That 200 hp is actually quite a lot, especially on units like drones and stealth suits.

Please, explain to me how Eldar's researches are "better" when their units are still outperformed by Tau units in every tier before and after the researches are complete?

As for broadsides, I think their entrenched form is fine. If you want to tweak it, you'd have to reduce the damage per shot but increase the ROF. This would make it more effective against individual infantry units. I do think that the missile pods could use a buff against vehicles, simply because that's it's purpose. Unentrenched = mobile, but only effective against vehicles. Entrenched = immobile, but effective against all unit types. Right now it's Entrenched = godlike, unentrenched = pussy.

[Apathetic]

So serious, Spek. I'm having fun - hence the smiley - but a lot of these assertions you make are really out there.

1. "Less researches means more money saved for other stuff", if by other stuff you mean our 400/400 T3 paperweights, I mean tech buildings, and their 400/400 T4 tech upgrade.
2. Eldar doesn't have to tech from the same building either except to reach T4 with 'Annihilate the Enemy'. T3 is achieved with 'Mobilize for War' outta the Webway Assembly.
3. ...these kind of wide sweeping generalizations deserve their own multiplayer balance thread, where we can ignore logic and rationale.
4. Spek, you're comparing FW, SS and the entire Tau vehicle line (minus HH) to GU and reapers. You openly exclude banshees and forget FD. And the effectiveness of Warp Spiders (especially over CS) really isn't in question, I don't think.
4a. I think I covered the time it takes to cannibalize kroot to a full 300hp in an old thread but I'll recap it here: 2hp/s means 150 seconds of cannibalizing (reduceable by having more squads on the field). You find me an opponent willing to provide me enough units to kill and then leave me alone for my kroot buffet for 2.5 min and I'll happily leave the kroot out of the picture entirely in favor of teching to HH.
5. The Etheral's nice, no doubt about it. Kinda pricy at 500/275 (it's not like you get anything else outta the coalition center), sorta like those armor upgrades Eldar get that affect all their infantry. Granted you need a seperate research upgrade for vehicles but at least you don't need to worry about him getting offed and instantly breaking / damaging every unit and building around him - all units within a radius of 150 suffer 100 points of armor damage and 500 morale damage.

[Spekkio]

1. Get your prices right...Tau pays 400/300 for the command posts (T3), and the reason for the extra 100 req is because Tau never has to pay extra money for vehicle and pop upgrades. They come automatically with teching. Eldar needs to make Webway Gates.
2. This is true; however, the researches still take a fuckload of a time to research.
3. Ignore logic and rationale? The only thing Eldar units have over Tau units is FoF. Tau units outdamage and outrange Eldar units, and after t1 they have more hps on top of a better armor type. So tell me, if you attack an Eldar base, how are they supposed to defend it when all your units do more damage and have more HPs? The only thing they have left is to send a FD squad up the backside and hope that "hide the webway" holds you off long enough so that they can rebuild.
4. Ok, throw in Fire Dragons. That changes things how? SS scale in t2 with pulse rifle upgrades that give them a range and damage boost, plus their own accuracy upgrade research which gives them unconditional 100% accuracy and 60+ dps each to vehicles when paired with fusion blasters. Oh, and they can disable vehicles before they take around 5 seconds to kill it. And they can jump...twice. I suppose that's just a shitty research, though. SS are the best t2 AV unit in the game. GUs just rollover and die in t2. I discarded Warp Spiders because they are a t3 elite. Comparing a t3 elite to a t1 unit, even one that scales, is absurd. Oh, and 3x CS + flamers can decimate 3x WS squads when used right. Target one on each WS squad and they all break. Now, you could say "but they can warp," but what normally happens in-game is the Eldar player does the typical warp-in to ambush, so you jump CS behind them. They can warp again but then CS can jump again, and if you have the rest of your army set up right then the WS are going to die very quickly. If they warp behind the firing line initially, then LOL because the CS will be standing there waiting, so now you have 2 jumps and they have 1 warp left. I discarded banshees because none of the top players use the unit, much like top Tau players rarely use kroot.
5a. Why do you need to have +300hp/each on a kroot squad for it to scale? Even +100 hps, which is totally feesible in a 1v1 is enough to scale the squad into early t2. Granted they don't scale beyond that, but Tau is a range specialist army so their melee naturally should be a little lackluster. Kroot fill their role nicely: a high HP meatshield that ties up units/spots for FWs to mop up.
6. The coalition center also gives you +4 vehicle cap, and it probably should be needed along with t4 to make a gnarloc. Still, it's worth it for that unit considering his benefits, his abilities, and the free bodyguard squad he spawns with 70 range, inf_heavy_high armor, and ~700 hps each.

[farseer_derek]

WS are actually a T2 elite that scales into T3 :) just putting that out there

[wayfarer]

If you must compare Eldar Dark Reapers to Fw. Note that they first need a stone and FoF to be Effective. While Fw just jump out of their barrack without any Stopgap. You can build Kroots from the same building while Eldar need a second stone to get their Kroot equivalent. Eldar AV needs another stone while SS are already on the field.

So I would say that Reapers should be a bit better than FWs because they come later.

[Apathetic]

1. LoL yes it's 400/300 for the initial K/MCC, I fat-fingered a 4 there. And while the Eldar 'have' to build webways to increase pop cap, those webways provide additionaly functionality beyond simply taking up real estate.
2. While it's true that Eldar researches take 60sec to Tau's 25sec, I would argue that this is because the Eldar researches affect multiple unit types across the board. Meaning when the first optics or armor research completes in T2 every infantry squad you've got in the field gains either 25% more damage or 15-30% more hp - whether it's GU, DR (who actually gain 50% dmg), WS, FD, rangers or shees (wether you use them or not). In short, your entire infantry army gains the benefit irregardless of composition as opposed to simply comprising your army of units that would benefit from that research.
3. Spek, if you're going to claim that every Tau unit is better than every Eldar unit and there's nothing Eldar can do in this MU then you've stepped off the field of logic into the realm of opinionated bias.
4. SS make good AV? I never knew this...shock! How much am I paying for again for the 'best t2 av unit in the game' - 480/50? And what's the reinforce/upgrade time on that sucker? 1:39s, since we never lose those 250hp SS in T1 like poor Eldar with their meager FoF GU squads. (But only 210/35 and 45sec if I want to play it cheap and go for just the leader plus one fusion upgrade.) All that for a squad that prays you're not smart enough to support your vehicles with a little detection in tow.
That bout of WS/CS theorycrafting smacks a bit too much of that Nec/Tau tangent that was finally brought to an end so I'm just going to agree to disagree with you on the outcome of CS vs WS.
4a. The gripe is that it takes time, which I believe was a major complaint on your part with regards to Eldar upgrades in the first place. But not only that, it also requires a unit to be placed out of combat in an otherwise non-contributional role just to pursue marginal scaling for a marginal melee unit. Personally, I'd rather drop the req/pow and incur the 60s research, get the 25%/50% upgrade in its entirety without requiring my squad to sit around effectively idle.
5. The Ethereal certainly has value in what he brings to the Tau army, what with the Air Caste Strike and adding a little durability to our glass cannon brigade. But when you compare the time it takes to get him out (50s for the coalition center, 40s for the ethereal) as well as the aforementioned cost, you're bumping up against that same issues you complained about for the Eldar researches.

[farseer_derek]

3. Spek, if you're going to claim that every Tau unit is better than every Eldar unit and there's nothing Eldar can do in this MU then you've stepped off the field of logic into the realm of opinionated bias.


he plays tau, and don't suggest that this mu is completely fair to both players, eldar has to do ALOT more work

SS make good AV? I never knew this...shock! How much am I paying for again for the 'best t2 av unit in the game' - 480/50

tac marine 5 man squad w/5 rockets = 550/75
IDK the costs of the others off by heart but they all range at around the 400req/50-100 power mark, fragons cost 95 power for a 5 man squad + leader i think btw and who do you think is gonna do better vs vechiles? a squad that is invis w/an ability that stops vechiles from shooting and has roughly the same dps to vechiles? or something that runs faster? sure fragons might be better base bashers but IMO its about even expecially on maps like, say, OR

[Hawillis]

Good point spekkio about mark target. Fine, decrease thi to 60% after giving FW a 15% buff.
But what you cannot do is make FW chaper or toughter (read:I dont want them tougher, but more hp to not be instagibbed). If you do, you will take away what the FW is.
SUre you can compare T3 FW to other T3 troops. Its knida unfair to compare to capped units, but fine, compare to T3 CSM. Infl plasma. nice. Even T3 GM, with their invulnearbility from the priest. FW are sucky at the start and more so later on.
If your worried about spids, and snares, then correct those as well as the FWs. ATM we have a broken system where the tau T1 is strong due to econ and spids. They are the crutch that is supporting the FW.
Go out there and try to use just FW and SS and you will lose.

Now the emp grenade is off tpoic and OP. SS are not that good in comparison to fragons. Fragons dont ever die, way too tough. T2 has many detectors. SS take 84 seconds to make fully AV. And an upgrade.
SS do present some of the problem that FW face though. When I play orcs for instance, the 3 sluggas that are produced tie up my lord and FW very well whilst the Bm and shootas kill them. Since SS are completely no fighters, the tau econ boom is acceptble IMO. Because those capping squads have no initial other uses in combat. Hence the ability for tau to be rushed.

[Slow_Runner]

A little reality check here:

Guardsmen are by far worse off in T4 than Fire Warriors. Necron Warriors aren't that hot at T4 either, nor are shootaboys, stormboyz, raptors or Guardians. Expecting Fire Warriors to be the ultimate unit in T4 is simply unrealistic. Viable? Please, by all means, but comparing Fire Warriors to Kasrkin or Terminators is invalid because one is a 2 pop basic T1 infantry squad with no limitations whereas the others are 3 pop T3 elite squads limited to 1 squad only. Let's keep the expectations realistic.

[Zany Reaper]

I think that Fire warriors in Tiers 2 & 3 are fine (well, tier 3 for Kauyon). However, they're currently rather poor in T1 where most melee units mash them up.
That's fine, but what's not fine is their poor value for their abilities. That's why I'm either suggesting a damage buff or a cost decrease.

[wayfarer]

And here is the crux. They come out in full strange without any stopgap. Every Race bar Necrons has to invest something before there troops reach their full Potential in T1.

[dreddnott]

Warriors can get the Disruption Field upgrade in Tier "1.5", which happens pretty early for Necrons.

[mdigibou]

OH YA in my original post i forgot to compare them to NW's too, but i figured it was absurd seeing as how after the DF upgrade, fw's in only MASSIVE quantities can win.
they do win pre DF, however, but you haveto reinforce once.


@Spekki, and very off topic
fact is, eldar units > tau units. not only do tau only get 4 troop selections(kroot fw TC spids) vs eldars 5 (gu, rangers, reaper, shees, FS). FS > TC (FoF -> melee, tc cant outrun) gu > SS, rangers = spids, they keep the spids constantly chasing them or lose your army by morale, reaper > fw (as i have proven earlier). now which unit were you talking about again??
3x tier 3 WS > all tier 3 elites. theres not much question about that in this community, and CS are considered one of the worst, how could you possibly say that they win? even with morale broken, and 20% accuracy, they can still kill the CS before they die. especially with an exarch.


so can someone give me NUMBERS or REPLAYS or REAL EVIDENCE as to why fw's are underpowered in TIER 1. tier 2/3/4 irrelevant, as fw's do have their use in all of those.

[wayfarer]

OK my fault Necrons need an Upgrade too.
So Tau don't.

On the Topic of eldar when did someone ever reseaches immediately 2 Stones for Banshees and Reapers. Req blasted for Nothing. I don't like Eldar but they are definitly not stronger than Tau. Sure Rangers eat moral but what does the Tau Commander with Flamer and Jetback?
What Vespids do to Eldar buildings should be metioned too.

[Zany Reaper]

Eldar indeed aren't stronger than tau, barring the fact that banshee squads can easily deal with Fire warriors. It's also fair to say that Dark reapers equal fire warriors, having a slightly shorter range & a lower damage, but a better reload time, more HP & fleet of foot to compensate (well, maybe the DR are actually a bit better than Fire warriors).

However, Fire warriors still are bad value. They have essentially the same cost as Dark Reapers, yet they're easier to kill, slower (that is that DRs have FoF, otherwise their speeds are the same), have only a small damage difference & are even more vulnerable in melee.
Fire warriors really should be cheapened or buffed (damage mainly, such as reverting back to the DC 1.1 damage values). I don't care that Dark Reapers have an aspect stone, as that has a minor cost associated with it.

[Spekkio]

Zany,

FWs cost the same to produce as reapers, yes. Now compare the different costs of the barracks, the fact that Eldar has to buy a stone, the cost of FoF, and the cost of an Exarch in t1 that they can't even afford if they buy rangers. Now tell me which one is a LOT more expensive?

As for melee mashing them up in t1, this is why I said that you must consider the army as a whole, and how units fit into that. Kroot >>> all t1 melee except for FOs. For every squad of dedicated melee your opponent can produce, you can make 2. On top of that, vespid disrupt + good use of snares will make short work of a melee mass.

@Hawillis,

I could go for reducing the importance of the PF mark target -- after all, a 75% damage boost is a hell of a lot. It's like relic took heavy weapon upgrades off of Tau and dumped them into another unit.

[mdigibou]

eldar tier 1 units vastly overpower any of their counterparts in any tier, if for no other reason than simply FoF.

and spids do just as much to eldar buildings as they do to everyone elses. not to mention with the cost of 2 lp's you only lose 10 req to that aspect stone.
eldar can build 3x gu, FoF, rangers, ranger stealth, reaper stone, and still get 2x lp's and a gen
tau can build 2xss, a builder, and spids +another unit. this leaves eldar 4 fighting units )3xgu + ranger) to tau's 2. albeit if you went a FS first, along with 3x GU you would see the fight in a whole new vision.

In what matchup should you build fw as a first unit? can someone tell me? and if you say orks or ig, your opinion no longer counts.
vs SM if you do then you get delayed by scout rush and ASM
vs chaos, you get delayed even worse by cult rush or raps, then get outtched = gg
vs orks, if you dont build kroot -> tc -> kroot you lose
vs IG, you get outmassed by GM and the CS+psyker+priest easily ties+outruns your FW and wtfpwns your TC
vs tau, if you dont TC+spid rush you lose
vs necron, you lose anyways
vs eldar, you can try but GU rush delays you, can kill your SS or at the very least delay your cap untill rangers + reapers show up and wtfpwn your FW and perma dance your spids.

so wait... fw are supposed to be tau's main unit, but there is never a reason to build them before kroot... why not?

[Zany Reaper]

FWs cost the same to produce as reapers, yes. Now compare the different costs of the barracks, the fact that Eldar has to buy a stone, the cost of FoF, and the cost of an Exarch in t1 that they can't even afford if they buy rangers. Now tell me which one is a LOT more expensive?The Dark Reapers are obviously slightly more expensive than the Fire warriors, but that's not the point. The point is that Fire warriors are bad value for what they are (especially as they can't FOTM either).

[wayfarer]

mdigibou what do want to prove. There are Guard builds for Eldar, Scout builds for Marines, Cultist builds for Chaos, Guard builds for the Imperial Guard,... (Ok that one was cheap :D)
All of them are not the base unit of the race but they work so what you are forced in a kroot build? You have my condolence.

As a reminder the damage of Fw in DC 1.1 was considered Imba.

You've got the same and actual better tools as the Imperial Guard. SS cap while the Commander and the Vespids have some fun in the enemy base. You gain map control and finally you can pump out further troops.
Your main combat unit doesn't suck and is rock hard from the beginning you even get a decent melee unit thrown in. So what do you want?

[VidiVici]

Heh so what, mdigibou?
Use your damn Kroot they are cheap and scale nicely if they feed.

Of course if you shoot your own foot by massing FW when you don't have the eco to support them you will lose.

From your BO I see that use 2 builders and 2 ss.
Builders take ages to move and your econ will be slow to kick start and you won't be able to harass with only 2 SS.

If you want to use a marine BO and win with tau you might want go back to the drawing boards.

[PaZZo]

if reapers&tacs are so wtfpwnage and FW suck so much someone should have to explain me why eldar/sm vs tau is a "oh damn not again" match up. oh wait, yeah, 'cause u have to consider the rest of the army too.

[Melonplant]

In T1, reapers are a shit ton better than fire warriors.

In T1, Tac marines are a shit ton worse than fire warriors.

Change reapers to heavy med, move exarch to t2, OR!

Make an upgrade at the aspect to call in exarchs. Figure out your own counter buff. I think that eldar would remain fairly balanced (with a slight shift in gameplay tactics) if exarchs were moved to t2.

Make tac marines auto equip with heavy bolters when they're made. There. Balanced. Promise.

edit: I forgot to mention, i do realize the eldar v tau is favored towards tau, but this topic is not aimed at fixing that. Nor do i think buffing dark reapers is the way to fix the tau v eldar matchup. Something else needs to be done. The technology of tau makes us strong!

[PaZZo]

oh damn u can't consider DR and FW alone, please, that makes no sense at all, and so does this thread. Do u want to discuss about FW? well let's do this, but not on the DR>FW terms, this is totally stupid.

[Warp Holder]

Make tac marines auto equip with heavy bolters when they're made. There. Balanced. Promise.

Funny joke. Really.


Do u want to discuss about FW? well let's do this, but not on the DR>FW terms, this is totally stupid.

OK, let's talk about FWs.
They lose pretty easily to DRs, don't you think?
Oh, and DRs are faster, can FoF, have no setup time, have higher dmg against buildings, etc.

[Spekkio]

FWs are underpowered in t1, Necron Eco sux, Chaos techs too slow, and IG has an underpowered t3. Buff them all!

[Apathetic]

I think you guys broke Spekkio. :stick:

mdigibou, I think Tau has sufficient means to support FW in T1 (even if that does devolve into endlessly dancing around LP2s). A price fix wouldn't really change the state of FW in T1, it'd just make the 'bitter pill' a little easier to swallow. Allowing the Shas'ui in T1 might be interesting though - Eldar get their Exarchs, right? - but the grenade is really all he brings and that's lackluster to begin with. I'd rather see FW get some love in T3 when the Mont'Ka path is selected, for late game viability that doesn't revolve around getting HH asap.

[Zany Reaper]

In T1, reapers are a shit ton better than fire warriors.
Only slightly...

Thing is, Vespid squads are gonna get nerfed anyways, so Fire warriors will therefore need a suitable buff to conpensate.

[_McGr3g_]

i still dont understand the reason of this thread. fw are fine as they r in t1 coz tau has spids - best unit in t1 and v good(one of the best out there) commander. whats more they have kroots that beat every other cc unit in t1 for cost. and u can swith from fw to kroots in seconds. and fw r still one of the best shooters in t1.
buffing fw would require:
separating again kroot rax
nerfing pids/tc/jumppacks.
just buffing fw would end in tau>>>>>>all. no1 except tau fanboys wants that.

[Slow_Runner]

This seems to be going in circles now with the same arguments of "DR + FoF" and "FWs in tandem with the TC and Vespids" being brought up over and over again.

Find something new and relevant to say or the thread gets locked.

The suggestion of bringing the Shas'Ui with the grenade available in T1 could be potentially nasty as the grenade does 85 damage to all infantry in a radius of 10 (that's a fairly big radius). That's 50% hp off Guardsmen and Cultists, over a third off Sluggas and Shootaboys and two of them will reduce the hp of tacs to half. That's potentially 1000 points worth of damage (assuming that you hit 12 units with a grenade) every 70 seconds for every Shas'Ui. To me that just doesn't sound like a terribly balanced scenario.

[fuggles]

How's this for some outside the box thinking?

Firstly eliminate setup for the FW, which will give them a lot more punch, especially against melee. However, once you upgrade the guns then setup returns as the recoil is greater from the MOAR POWA!

Or up their stopping power a lot, but give them a min range. Either/or.

[wayfarer]

This would imply that actual anyone thinks they are to weak. If it ain't broken don't fix it.

[Hawillis]

Please all the people who say that they are not weak...... go out and dont use vespids. I will allow you use of the TC.
Hmm. Set-up time, slow speed, poor sight range, no building damage. How many ways are their to deal with FM? Bloody millions. Its not helped by a crap transport either. Yey its infltraited but is damn slow and has no health. Yes IMO this reflects badly on the FW - I ould be using it to 'buff' them!
Counters: distruption
building guns/turrets
jump troops
transports
vehicles
killing the spotters

Without the vespids, FW do not work. And dear me, vespids will be nerfed people. Then tau will suck. It will need an econ of 100 to function.

Yes DR > FW. Cant compare exactly as the races are different, but DR are forgiving. Thats big. You dont just lose an army of DR. You can watch your FW just poof away.

[Spekkio]

Hawillis, you're missing the point: Tau DO have vespids and TC. That's why I said you have to consider units in the context of their army.

[Hawillis]

And IMO, its not alright to have an army that is only ok because they have OP units and UP units. It will create situations where tau nail and where they have no chance. So sort the FW out and sort the vespids out.

I believe what I have said will make FW a viable choice, but it wont take away their vulnerability. Thus you will still need to chose the correct balance of your forces for the situations. Right now, I go vepsids + TC. Oh look I have 300 rec - FW squad. Oh look another 300 rec. FW squad. Hmm, I seem to have another 30 rec. FW squad please in far too many situations for my liking. The units need to be balanced so Im making decisions based on the time, composition of my econ, my opponents, my opponents tech, etc.

[Zany Reaper]

If Fire warriors have their set-up time removed, then they will be able to shoot whilst moving, assuming their Accuracy when moving isn't reduced to 0!

The animations for FoTM Fire warriors exist too, so it can happen.

[wayfarer]

If you want to buff Fire Warriors because in a strange parallel Universum somehow Vespids could get nerfed than you should put that in your posts. "If you nerf Vespids buff FW" (as it stands I wouldn't mind nerfing Vespids leave Fw as is but hey someone will scream:"how can you nerf the weakest race") that's a message but now no way Tau T1 is already way too hard.

[mdigibou]

tau tier 1 is great. excellent. powerful. but not because of vespids, its because of their SS.
the TC is a good commander, but which isn't?? every commander has its use and merits. even the oft over-looked FS is the counter to the TC.
spids.. basically chaos tacs that jump and shred, damage isnt exactly something to write home about unless they're hitting building, and even then, most other jump troops do comparable damage without having to cost power to use. (i view it as the power is being paid for the special abilities). they essential are tau's jump troop that sucks at actual combat, but is good at disruption.

kroot are tau's melee unit, they beat stuff for cost, but they are slower, get easily danced(like all melee), and lack the jumping capabilities/durability of most premier melee troops in tier 1...ASM, raps... which do win 1v1 but not if they are outnumbered which makes sense anyways, because they can always retreat a losing battle.

fw's lose to just about every darn shooty/melee unit. period. the grenade in tier 1 as slow_runner has pointed out, would make them overuseful vs...capping units? well hey, if reapers cost power for FoF+exarch and own...capping units AND army, youd think at least firewarriors would be able to beat SOMETHING outright. its not like you cant run from FW, but you can most certain not run from reapers. and the grenade has a very low range. it would even make playing against tau more interesting in tier 1. instead of "oh no vespids, we can wait till they get close" you could be like "oh no, fw's instead, well they might kill my scouts, but my LP's are safe!" and obviously this wouldnt affect much seeing as the TC is already better than fw's at dealing with capping squads with that flamer anyways, so the grenade would only make the FW's an actually viable option against quick rushes instead of HAVING to go kroot.
if this is too much for the faint of heart, make a research at the tau HQ in tier 1, and enable it to give fw's and pf's a flash grenade. effectively either stunning an enemy unit for 1.5-3s (obviously you cant be shot on the ground so dont even start) or lowering their movement speed by 30-50% for 1-2 seconds(this method might be OP in later tiers). grenade has an AoE of 10, same as shas'ui, with a recharge time of 90 seconds. if it didnt do damage, and cost to research, how would this be so hard? it would be similiar to the stikkbomb, only actually costs to research

if STILL This is too much, the proposed fw price drop would enable them to at least win vs a stock squad of tacs, reaper with one reinforcement (not exarch), but still lose to the reaper with exarch, however the fw's would be able to counter mass more easily because they started with more members, and it costs the same to reinforce reapers as it does FW (even time wise, and remember an exarch only takes 10s to 9s for normal reinforce). so that would make map control/eco much more important in that matchup amirite? and every other matchup (assuming spids get the nerf stick) would make this race worth playing.

and firewarriors have nothing to do with tau's excellent tier 1, they haveto do with tau's lackluster tier 2 that you haveto invest in multiple extra squads (pathfinders) to become even close to the effectiveness of other units. 150/50 for heavy weapons i can only use every 90 seconds? no thank you!

and not to flame, but wayfarer, please try and play tau for yourself, and you will see how useless they really are in tier 1. post reps if you can show yourself using them effectively in tier 1 vs a competent ork or SM or eldar

[Hawillis]

Cheap = spammable. Cheap = dont care if I lose them. That is not what FW are!

Set up time is part of teir character too. Dont remove this.

Glass cannons people. Just up their damage 15% and building damage + 4dps.

Vespids ARE the best T1 troup out there. If used well, their abilityis and manouverability makes them the best. They nail cappers, builders and buildings and have uses in fights too. yes the powercost is annoying (makes no gen builds out of the question) but hey. They must be nerfed. I vote cooldown increase +50% and 2 jumps, recharge time increase to match. Given back in T2. Now I know this is a FW thread but some people are not prepared to view FW buff without vespids nerfs. Thus lets assume that vespids are nerefed in the above ways.

[mdigibou]

ok i dont know if you read the original suggestion, but uh i said keep their original cost or 200 or something for a squad of 4 fw's... keep the reinforce cost at 70. that way they come out decent fighting capable units rather than costing 280 for a good squad (210 + reinforce)

basically its not to increase their survivability (well technically a little), but to increase their capability to deal damage before getting wtfpwnt by FotM or perma-dance by melee.

[wayfarer]

I don't need to play Tau I was at the receiving end.:|

First I've seen how a team of Kroots broke my CS in T1 that was outfitted with a Psioniker and a Priest in no time. I've never seen that before from any other T1 melee Unit. (Even Berzerker don't do so much morale damage where is the justice when a axe swinging crazy doesn't get taken serious?)

The Vespids are a harassers dream only the CS is better. (Base damage to building light 20 *5 members = 100dps multiplied with shred 50% more damage taken + extra damage from the ability I mean Hello? What do you want? A nuke button?)

My morale against Tau is most of the time toast because of the Commander in T1.

Still you say they are useless and FW need a buff so they can get the main fighting force. This is actual legitime but what is not legitime is the fact that I don't see a hint that you are willing to take something away from the other stuff.

[VidiVici]

Well in all fairness he is assuming that the vespids will be nerfed.

But without knowing how they will be nerfed it is kinda hard to speculate on what is needed for the FW to compensate.

On the other I also have been on the receiving end a number of times and I really don't think FW are bad in t1.
There are "bad value" units in all tiers and races but when used properly they shine.

[Warp Holder]

My morale against Tau is most of the time toast because of the Commander in T1.

Still you say they are useless and FW need a buff so they can get the main fighting force. This is actual legitime but what is not legitime is the fact that I don't see a hint that you are willing to take something away from the other stuff. We don't want them broken. We want them dead.
Only dealing more damage to HP this is done, and if FWs are that expensive what will we do?

[mdigibou]

whoah what the HELL? the CS tears apart kroot.. like more so than any other commander besides BM.
you were doing something SERIOUSLY wrong there.

kroots do morale damage, and thats WHY they beat other melee specialists. same thing for sluggas. they do incredible morale damage when they hit you, yet no one complains about them, even though sluggas cost MUCH less and are slightly more durable.

vespids dont need a damage nerf, only a 2x jump with a slightly faster recharge. there fix'd. that way you risk losing your forces with bad micro and you lose the insane mobility of the rush.

[conbobulator]

Sluggas do incredible morale damage?
I assume you're talking about if you stick flamers on them, then they ain't so cheap anymore. Even then it's more irritating morale than anything else..

[mdigibou]

no.. sluggas by themselves do amazing amounts of morale damage. check it for yourself.

[Spekkio]

TC + Flamer kills an unreinforced slugga squad pretty damned quick...almost as quickly as a cultist squad, actually.

Kroots beat stormboys in melee, let alone t0 sluggas.

[mdigibou]

im aware of this. slow runner was just saying that a FW grenade in tier 1 would be UBAR OP.

and its not really, in comparison to that freakin flamer.

[wayfarer]

mdigibou yes the Cs tears them apart he is at least a hero but if you run it to the end you'll see that 500 moral don't last very long. I don't have the possibilty to test it yet. Perhabs it is exagerated but still their morale damage is so high that even some T2 melee units don't cause so much. Yeah Kroot are really underpowered.

Warp Holder you've got a strange conception of what broken means.

Actual this discussion leads me to believe that I should play Winter Assault again. Even the T3 Slugfest is bearable compared to this cheeseball.

[Zany Reaper]

Tau commander usually kills a Command squad 3 members big, if used properly.

Vespids are good at harassing.

Kroot are good at killing things in melee.

But Fire warriors in theory are useful, but they're not that good in T1 due to their high cost & lack of FoTM. Seeing as vespids will be nerfed, FWs need a buff or Mdigibou's suggestion to compensate.

[Vytae]

If the CS is tearing up your kroot squad,while your FW squad and TC is shooting it to pieces,seems like a good deal to me. Hell,even is the CS is tearing up the kroot squad while the FW and TC shoot the crap out of the rest of the GM squads,its still a deal.

[mdigibou]

ya and his GM squads maul that kroot because you do what? FOCUS FIRE.
that way its one squad down, and the CS can focus on the FW

im FULLY aware of this matchups situation, however someone decided they would throw in that kroot > CS and i had to debuttle that. its just not true.

kroot are not by ANY means underpowered, you just dont melee commanders with them. and thats fine.

why am i even argueing this? kroot arent even the point.

[Zany Reaper]

It's the Fire warriors that're underpowered, not the Kroot!

[wayfarer]

ya and his GM squads maul that kroot because you do what? FOCUS FIRE.
that way its one squad down, and the CS can focus on the FW

im FULLY aware of this matchups situation, however someone decided they would throw in that kroot > CS and i had to debuttle that. its just not true.

kroot are not by ANY means underpowered, you just dont melee commanders with them. and thats fine.

why am i even argueing this? kroot arent even the point.

My mistake OK.
After some tests a squad Kroot knocks out the Commander if he is alone! Thats actual not releveant. If they go against him with Psioniker and Priest and are constantly reinforced they can tie him up for a long time with some luck they kill slowly the Priest and the Psioniker. Some ranged fire from an other squad and he is dead .

I just remembered that he was badly mauled by this guys probably he was hitten by something else too. (Too much bad memories against Tau):rolleyes:

Stil this guys perform quite good as does the Tau Commander the Stealth Suites, the Vespids but seemingly the Fire Warriors not (Well I dream about such Firepower in T1). Uhmm well I still don't see the point buffing them.

[Zany Reaper]

Well, Fire warriors are only useful in multiple squads. It costs a lot to get multiple squads of Fire warriors out, so that's why they should either be cheapened or buffed.

After all, they Can't FoTM, & as of such will get danced by melee units unless in large squads, except for one problem - if it's perpetual dancing, the fire warriors that aren't being chased will be chased by a new melee unit or something.

So to conpensate, that's why Fire warriors should be cheaper. Snare traps & the TC in general are quite expensive anyhow.

Heck, there's a friend of mine who hasn't patched as he heard how heavily Tau were nerfed. That includes Fire warriors...

[mdigibou]

nerf kroot damage, keep their morale damage, buff fw damage to compensate. fix'd

(not really.. but its an idea)

[wayfarer]

Yeah I know the nerfs and most of them and I still believe that they were appropriate. As I said I play mostly Guard I still can't follow your reasoning.

The problem of dancing could be avoided if one Squad fires while the other redraws this procedure in rotation.

If I would play Tau I would see it but now I'll leave you alone here with you disscusion because I won't change my opinion. If I recall right though Tau got the most problems against Necrons and bigger better FW will not accomblish much here it will make it just much harder for everyone else.

[mdigibou]

tau has problem with nec cus the FotM eats them alive and they cant dance the Lord worth crap.
in case you werent around for 1.1, tau v nec was basically even, maybe even tau sided. due to the bigger, better fw's.

[farseer_derek]

and the imba pids and tau just being crazily op in gneral :) both the dc races were in fact and oddly enough both the dc races are definately in the top half of the balance scale (if you know what i mean)

look fw are fine, they don't need to be cheaper,they don't need buffs UNLESS you nerf pids/tc then they might need a buff or two

if you make a squad of 3 cost 200 then that will make the sm vs tau mu even worse than it already is, how the hell do you think your gonna win if their squads cost the same as yours and are infinitly betteR??? what do you reckon is gonna win? 3fw or 4tacs? fw,no chance, ofc due to pids being right up there messing the tacs up too.

ok lets do a lil cost comparision

2x4tacs = 380req
1x3Fw (at 200req per squad) + 1x3pids = 350/30 power? or is it 20?

the pids jump in and disrupt the tacs with sonic pulse, the fw shoot the tacs, the tau player then uses tapping by attack moving to tie both squads of tacs up with the one pid squad, the tacs start losing members from the fw shooting them

theres nothing they can do, 1pid will kill 2-3 tacs in cc while the other two own the other squad and the fw hammer them from range, add in massing and its even worse, the tau could throw in a kroot squad or two for tying up tac squads :S the only chance sm has vs tau lies in the fc + tac mass but vs fw mass + tc +pids there aint much you can do, pids jump in disrupt your entire army while tc lays a snare just a bit ahead of you, you can't shoot it in time cos your on your back and your starting to take casulties from fw... basically what im saying is you'll have to make snares cost a bit more, make pids take longer to come out, make sonic pulse less effective, give pids less health/jumps before you get fw buffs because you run the risk of making them uber imba like in 1.1 where crons were the only race that DIDN'T have trouble with them :S

[Melonplant]

Derek brings up a lot of good points. And its theorycrafting too.

[mdigibou]

ohk lets get ALOT of things straight here derek.

1.) a spid cannot beat 2-3 tacs in CC and live.
2.)how is massing worse if the tacs are still cheaper. also, how do you think tau feels vsing eldar?
3.)throw in a kroot or two. sure. add that many more tacs, either way thats like saying LOL ADD ASM, K ADD MORE FW's LOLOL
4.)the snare stays visible for 8 seconds before arming. im pretty sure ONE or two tacs can manage to do 35 damage to it before they get back up.
5.)YOU CANT GET SHOT ON THE FSCKING GROUND! holy shit, i cant count HOW many times people have bitched about this, so shut up, listen, and get this straight. when your units are knocked on their backs... they CANNOT be shot by ANY DIRECT FIRE UNIT. THANK YOU.

last time i checked SM had alot more available options besides tactical marines. ASM, scouts, heavy flamers, the FC. even exploding skull probes to keep us from building more units. when was the last time you did that one huh derek? same goes for eldar, if you know a building is gunna be constantly doing something, a skull probe to knock it offline is just like spending the 35 power on a snare, cept even better cus your opponent barely has a chance to directly interact with it.

hell the FC on ranged will take out a FEW fw squads before he dies to something.
so maybe the problem lies in the overnerf of SM and that tau was nerfed slightly less than tau, or even the exact same considering SM was slightly under tau pre-patch.
and even moreso, SM complains about eldar so much, so whats so bad about not having to fight rangers, or shees, or FoF. just the same dps as reapers, without FoF, that cost the same.

that way you can SEE the threat (spids v rangers), the main fighting force cant LOL RUN AWAY!!, (fw's v reapers w/ comander) and the commander doesnt AoE nuke your main fighting force, as well as heavily damage your commander.

oh ya sorry i got distracted.

in the scenario you described, if the tacs dance well outside the fw range like you should be doing anyways, the spids are just dying, losing power as well untill they retreat. then something magical happens.... no one is taking damage wait... can it be? the tau doesnt want to lose units cus theyre expensive.. wait heaven forbid.

alright im done here this is nigh ridiculous

[Akathrielah]

1.) a spid cannot beat 2-3 tacs in CC and live.
2.)how is massing worse if the tacs are still cheaper. also, how do you think tau feels vsing eldar?
3.)throw in a kroot or two. sure. add that many more tacs, either way thats like saying LOL ADD ASM, K ADD MORE FW's LOLOL
4.)the snare stays visible for 8 seconds before arming. im pretty sure ONE or two tacs can manage to do 35 damage to it before they get back up.
5.)YOU CANT GET SHOT ON THE FSCKING GROUND! holy shit, i cant count HOW many times people have bitched about this, so shut up, listen, and get this straight. when your units are knocked on their backs... they CANNOT be shot by ANY DIRECT FIRE UNIT. THANK YOU.


1. Sonic Pulse + Unusually High CC morale damage = Vespids win. If you have (you should) TC + FWs supporting them, this makes its slaughter. With barely anything the SM can do early in the game other than trying to lamely send the old man running around trying to kill the Vespids/TC.

2. Massing is worse cause FWs + Vespid + TC > Tacticals and FC. You can throw in scouts if you want to feel silly considering how quickly they get mulched/broken by the TC.

3. Err... Moo?

4. I'm not sure why he suggested throwing a snare trap anywhere near your tacs. Especially since the TC can leap a fair distance behind and drop a snare trap there.

5. True. But your squads is now all over the place and you can't focus fire worth a damn now that your squads scattered all over the place because of sonic pulse.



last time i checked SM had alot more available options besides tactical marines. ASM, scouts, heavy flamers, the FC. even exploding skull probes to keep us from building more units. when was the last time you did that one huh derek? same goes for eldar, if you know a building is gunna be constantly doing something, a skull probe to knock it offline is just like spending the 35 power on a snare, cept even better cus your opponent barely has a chance to directly interact with it.


ASM is a no no since they are 3 pop now and cost more than FW to produce. Scouts are ridiculously expensive to gear up and you need them en masse if you want them to be able to gun down Vespids quickly enough before the TC/FW mulches them alive. If you want to start adding in ASM and/or Tacs then your just nailing your coffin shut as the Tau player will just proceed to turtle and head to T2 for vehicles and Pathfinders. Meanwhile you just sunk a ridiculous amount of resources for all those units/upgrades.

Throwing away non cloaked (unless you want to add 50/50 to the bill, and power is scarce/expensive in the begining) units that cost 75 req each and are pathetically fragile at the enemy is a stupid way to lose.



hell the FC on ranged will take out a FEW fw squads before he dies to something.


FC on ranged gets to play chase the FWs before running into a snare and dying a burny plasma death. Its better than FC trying to melee but not much, unless the Tau player is trying 1v1 your FC with his TC, which is retarded. Best thing is probably to get the plasma pistol upgrade and attack him to a squad. But he has no where near the effect of the Tau commander until T3.5 with orbital.



, SM complains about eldar so much, so whats so bad about not having to fight rangers, or shees, or FoF. just the same dps as reapers, without FoF, that cost the same.

that way you can SEE the threat (spids v rangers), the main fighting force cant LOL RUN AWAY!!, (fw's v reapers w/ comander) and the commander doesnt AoE nuke your main fighting force, as well as heavily damage your commander.


Vespids lolsonicpulse your tac squads for ridiculous disruption and can single handly end the game if the SM player is trying to retreat a losing battle. FW + TC + snare traps = wall of doom. TC > Farseer since the flamer, snare traps and jumping is far far greater than what she can throw on the table even with all of her upgrades.

[mdigibou]

ummmm TC <<<<< farseer(in a 1v1)... if youre trying to suggest vs armies, its not that the FS is any worse, just that in general, eldar units are better with ranger support than a commander, which is significantly worse than anything the TC flamer can accomplish.

SM is just in a bad spot tier 1, but youd be suprised what scouts can accomplish when used right.

tau is basically a crappier version of eldar, with different units that are easily taken care of.

1.) 1 vespid will never ever ever ever take on more than one unit of the opposing type, even with "excellent" morale damage, as it will be dead slightly after you can say LOL. (assuming you leave it in melee, like an Rtard)

vespid + tc support was not in the equation derek supplied, stop deviating.

now i see why DC players are horrid at balance attempts and most people migrated to DCpro, no one can focus, not even for a second at the real issues.

[wayfarer]

No you can't focus. Just because you think 1 MU is broken you want to throw away the balance with all other match ups.:noway:
Props welcome in the Balance Team

[Apathetic]

Originally posted by Akathrielah:
1. Sonic Pulse + Unusually High CC morale damage = Vespids win. If you have (you should) TC + FWs supporting them, this makes its slaughter. With barely anything the SM can do early in the game other than trying to lamely send the old man running around trying to kill the Vespids/TC.mdigibou was responding to a claim by farseer_derek that a single member of a vespid squad could kill 2-3 members of a default tac squad in melee combat. 1 vespid vs 4-man tac squad, 2-3 casualties for the SM. Vespids have 330hp of Inf_Hvy_Med and deal 7.4 dps to Inf_Hvy_Med. Tacs have 390hp of Inf_Hvy_Med and deal 9.3 dps to Inf_Hvy_Med. If you think this claim is remotely possible then you either have the tacs standing their ground while broken or they're on 'Hold Fire' stance.


Originally posted by Akathrielah:
5. True. But your squads is now all over the place and you can't focus fire worth a damn now that your squads scattered all over the place because of sonic pulse.It's once every 60 seconds and it is not an issue because as mdigibou pointed out you can't fire upon knocked down units. Sonic pulse disrupts troop formations, breaking up firing lines or stalling an advance or retreat thereby extending your opponent's time under the FW guns. That's why you include them in engagements. Why else would you be throwing a 5-man 1650hp jump squad into the mix when they deal less than 14 dps against every infantry armor type? They're there to disrupt and tie-up crap while the FW do the real work.


Originally posted by Akathrielah:
ASM is a no no since they are 3 pop now and cost more than FW to produce. Scouts are ridiculously expensive to gear up and you need them en masse if you want them to be able to gun down Vespids quickly enough before the TC/FW mulches them alive. If you want to start adding in ASM and/or Tacs then your just nailing your coffin shut as the Tau player will just proceed to turtle and head to T2 for vehicles and Pathfinders. Meanwhile you just sunk a ridiculous amount of resources for all those units/upgrades.

Throwing away non cloaked (unless you want to add 50/50 to the bill, and power is scarce/expensive in the begining) units that cost 75 req each and are pathetically fragile at the enemy is a stupid way to lose.Yes, ASM have disadvantages in terms of cost and inf_pop (primarily to prevent SM from simply massing them). They have advantages as well, being melee jump troops that neither the FW nor the TC can stand up to. The whole point of using other units is to offset a weakness or shortcoming in your current army lineup. If you are unwilling to adapt your strategy to utilize all the units available to you then you are handicapping yourself by your own choice and thereby accept said weaknesses and shortcomings - unless you think tacs should be the SM's answer to everything.


Originally posted by wayfarer:
After some tests a squad Kroot knocks out the Commander if he is alone! Thats actual not releveant. If they go against him with Psioniker and Priest and are constantly reinforced they can tie him up for a long time with some luck they kill slowly the Priest and the Psioniker. Some ranged fire from an other squad and he is dead .CS < overwatched kroot + FW? Unpossible!

Originally posted by Akathrielah:
FC on ranged gets to play chase the FWs before running into a snare and dying a burny plasma death. Its better than FC trying to melee but not much, unless the Tau player is trying 1v1 your FC with his TC, which is retarded. Best thing is probably to get the plasma pistol upgrade and attack him to a squad. But he has no where near the effect of the Tau commander until T3.5 with orbital. FC < TC + FW, you say?

Clearly the inability of other races' commanders to solo the Tau commander + one or more squads is an oversight on the part of the balance team and should be remedied immediately.

Do you people even read these claims you put forth? How about trying to balance both sides of the comparison for cost first? These last couple of posts are so far and away from the original topic (and reality). You people are too hung up on TC + vespids. Post something relevent or close this thread and spare us all the blatantly false accusations.

[Zany Reaper]

The Force Commander can easily kill vespids unless there is a TC around which is sniping him & chucking snares around, in which case the Vespid squad only has to attack a building to inflict some more annoyance upon the SM player.

However, Tacticals can easily shoot those Vespids dead, & can outnumber Fire warriors too. Infact, it's even funnier that their melee damage is almost as good as their shooting damage, so all Tactical squads need to do is just to run straight into melee with them fire warriors & dance them around, This is made easier for the marines when they outnumber the Fire warriors too.

Another reason why Fire warriors need a buff (kroot are a bit risky here).

[Melonplant]

The melee damage is very misleading, since fire warriors don't take kindly to being stabbed. Since their speed is the same, you'll more likely have a dance fest until somebody pulls out an extra squad.

Assuming the tau player has a few IQ points, it will probably be a kroot.

Interesting fun fact for you guys. When you tell any unit to "attack melee" it voids its FOTM. Be sure to set their stance to melee, rather than pressing z.

Hm. Actually that fun fact has some strings attached. They'll whip out their knives at a certain range... Appears its better to have them chase, then attack melee when fw stop running. Gasp, more microing?

[Zany Reaper]

Don't ask why they whip their melee weapon out & stop shooting whilst on the chase. I wish that feature was removed from the game so you can easily chase & shoot at the same time.

Regarding Fire warriors, Kroot'll get crunched up by enemy heroes anyways. They don't do a lot of damage to them & as of such will probably be ignored.

[Melonplant]

Kroot will kill a hero faster than fire warriors will. Do i need to post a replay of it? Unsupported kroot have surrounded my FC and dinked him to bits. My opponent then began cannibalizing (i'm sure just to spite me) and moved on to beat tacs in melee.

This really isnt about kroot though...

[Akathrielah]

It's once every 60 seconds and it is not an issue because as mdigibou pointed out you can't fire upon knocked down units.... etc


Reread what I wrote. Nothing about taking damage. Its about dealing it.



Yes, ASM have disadvantages in terms of cost and inf_pop (primarily to prevent SM from simply massing them). They have advantages as well, being melee jump troops that neither the FW nor the TC can stand up to. The whole point of using other units is to offset a weakness or shortcoming in your current army lineup. If you are unwilling to adapt your strategy to utilize all the units available to you then you are handicapping yourself by your own choice and thereby accept said weaknesses and shortcomings - unless you think tacs should be the SM's answer to everything.


Which hardly matters since the Tau now outsquad you and has better econ by far (if they didn't already). And unfortunately the way Relic designed SM, Tacs are the only available answer to almost everything. ASM don't scale well (they never did AFAIK, and they certainly don't now that they are 3 pop) and scouts has always been for support. They might have been able to provide some diversity had they implemented Devastator Squads and left Tacs the way they are in TT, but that is something we won't have chance at until DoW2 (if it ever comes out at all).





FC < TC + FW, you say?

Clearly the inability of other races' commanders to solo the Tau commander + one or more squads is an oversight on the part of the balance team and should be remedied immediately.



Perhaps I need to make things a little more clear for you. FC running around supporting Tacs (or ASM) unattached is an easy target and is just as easily avoided. His impact is now where near as strong as the TC.



Do you people even read these claims you put forth? How about trying to balance both sides of the comparison for cost first? These last couple of posts are so far and away from the original topic (and reality). You people are too hung up on TC + vespids.


How about trying to balance the game according to how things actually work in game instead of theorycraft?

You know, with players actually using what options are available to them instead of whinning that that unit X loses to unit Y if you park them infront of one another after both sides agree to open fire at the count of 10.



Post something relevent or close this thread and spare us all the blatantly false accusations.


Blah blah, empty rhetoric.

[Apathetic]

Originally posted by Akathrielah:
Reread what I wrote. Nothing about taking damage. Its about dealing it.What do you think happens when jump troops leap onto your firing line or someone uses disruption? Your troops get thrown out of position - compensate. This has been part of the game since vannilla DoW with frag grenades and ASM/rap/stormboyz, I don't see what your problem with Sonic Pulse is given that it's attached to a hard-capped squad of 1 on a 60 sec cd. Your squads are out of position, that's it. You can pull back and regroup or else stick to it out.


Originally posted by Akathrielah:
Which hardly matters since the Tau now outsquad you and has better econ by far (if they didn't already). And unfortunately the way Relic designed SM, Tacs are the only available answer to almost everything. ASM don't scale well (they never did AFAIK, and they certainly don't now that they are 3 pop) and scouts has always been for support. They might have been able to provide some diversity had they implemented Devastator Squads and left Tacs the way they are in TT, but that is something we won't have chance at until DoW2 (if it ever comes out at all).How does going ASM automatically result in being outsquadded? If anything you should outsquad them because your capping units can tie-up either FW or the TC long enough for ASM to deal with the other. Scaling is a non-issue as ASM aren't there to win the game, a single squad harasses the Tau hard enough to throw them back on their heels while you tech to T2.


Originally posted by Akathrielah:
Perhaps I need to make things a little more clear for you. FC running around supporting Tacs (or ASM) unattached is an easy target and is just as easily avoided. His impact is now where near as strong as the TC.He's a strong melee presence with disruption that the FW have to avoid, and he outshoots both TC, FW and destroys vespids. You can capitalize on his ability to push the Tau around or if the situation doesn't favor that then don't engage. If you feel he's so ineffective then don't build him, just like ASM.


Originally posted by Akathrielah:
How about trying to balance the game according to how things actually work in game instead of theorycraft?

You know, with players actually using what options are available to them instead of whinning that that unit X loses to unit Y if you park them infront of one another after both sides agree to open fire at the count of 10.That's funny considering that you and farseer_derek are the ones theorycrafting yourself an alternate DoW reality. And you're the one refusing to use available options because you can't make them work.

[Melonplant]

How does going ASM automatically result in being outsquadded

Silly rabbit.

250 rax + 175 armory + 220 per 4 man squad + no gen i assume.
60 per reinforce

tau rax 150 + ...generator...? 150

Uh oh! now for the 3 cap part. 2 scouts = 2 cap. 2 asm = 6 cap. No more cap! You could delete a scout squad i suppose.

ASM are not able to beat FW by outsquadding. They hope to god that all the fire warriors are close together and that the TC isn't near enough to the fw to deal flamer damage and the such.

ASM builds are not viable. Mixed builds are encouraged by relic, but the armory requirement gimps tech speed and army speed so much that its a real pain to do. The 3 cap was a huge overnerf.

I often wonder if people who suggest ASM mass to counter tau have ever used space marines before.

[Hawillis]

They dont have to outsquad them. They are fast enough to chase FW and still do massive damage. FW are slow, and EXPENSIVE.

I cannot afford 210 rec squads. Especially 210 rec squads that are running around and not shooting.

A SM army of say:
2*5 ASM
FC
4scouts- 1 flamer

Is an absolute bitch to deal with. 2 FW squads have to run for their life and have huge amounts cut off their health bars.
The TC has to run from the FC. Now he is the more useful of the 2 heros but requires micro and will get hurt from the pistol of the FC (often a plasma pistol!)
Scouts run around melee style like you would expect. They are the dudes who quickly run over and shoot snares put down.

OK, thats 3 FW squads I have tied and a TC who doesnt do that much. At any time I can put the ASM on him, and the FC on a FW squad. Why? Do this if the TC is in flamer range. Well 2 seconds set-up time makes the briefly unengaged FW squad not do too much and the TC will quickly get punished my the ASM squad.

And it continues in T2. No change!. 2 ASM can jump into a tau base, throw 2 melta bombs and kill the path to enlighten in no time. DO you know how long it takes to rebuild? Also 200/200 is worth losing a lot of ASM for!

[Zany Reaper]

Assault marines are definately an issue, but at least Tau can actually deal with ASM armies as they're restricted to requiring an armoury.
Chaos on the other hand get Craptors, which really mess up Tau (they appear quicker).

Infact, one could even argue that Raptors + Chaos Lord = easy win for Chaos. Although this probably doesn't help by me investing in vespid squads against Chaos (it doesn't work).

Raptor squads are more expensive than fire warriors, which is fairly justified seeing as they're better. However, should fire warriors really be so expensive especially seeing as only one squad with a TC ain't gonna do a lot (you'll easily run out of power)?

[Akathrielah]

What do you think happens when jump troops leap onto your firing line or someone uses disruption? Your troops get thrown out of position - compensate. This has been part of the game since vannilla DoW with frag grenades and ASM/rap/stormboyz, I don't see what your problem with Sonic Pulse is given that it's attached to a hard-capped squad of 1 on a 60 sec cd. Your squads are out of position, that's it. You can pull back and regroup or else stick to it out.


A grenade most of the time knocks a single squad down in its place or perhaps scatters the squad in a small radius. Sonic Pulse hits multiple squads and has a much, much larger effect. The difference between getting your squads knocked down, and having your squads scattered across the screen is rather large. Not to mention that sonic pulse is on a platform with multiple jumps, and can easily leap in front of your retreating troops.



How does going ASM automatically result in being outsquadded? If anything you should outsquad them because your capping units can tie-up either FW or the TC long enough for ASM to deal with the other. Scaling is a non-issue as ASM aren't there to win the game, a single squad harasses the Tau hard enough to throw them back on their heels while you tech to T2.


You are dropping 175/50 to lay down that armory to begin with, and against Tau's superior econ, your digging yourself a bit deeper. Then your producing 220 troops that take up 3 cap each. How are you not going to be outsquadded? Unless your going for a scout heavy build which gets destroyed by the TC by himself.




He's a strong melee presence with disruption that the FW have to avoid, and he outshoots both TC, FW and destroys vespids. You can capitalize on his ability to push the Tau around or if the situation doesn't favor that then don't engage. If you feel he's so ineffective then don't build him, just like ASM.


The old man in melee does suprisingly little damage because of his tendency to use his disruption attack, and moves at a ponderous pace, and his FoTM isn't too great. Meaning your probably better off sticking him in ranged stance and dumping him in a squad so he doesn't get singled out.

In either case his effect on the battlefield is no where near as great as the TC in T1 who can simply go from squad to squad breaking them with his flamer. Or laying down a snare trap, effectively taking a squad out of action.



That's funny considering that you and farseer_derek are the ones theorycrafting yourself an alternate DoW reality. And you're the one refusing to use available options because you can't make them work.


Yes, we're the ones exclaiming how you shouldn't look at the army as a whole and try to exam each unit in a vaccum. Sure. Ok.

I mean yeah, its been more or less confirmed by most of the higher end players that the SM/Chaos/IG vs Tau matchup in T1 heavily favours the former rather than the latter... oh wait.

Nope Tau definately needs a boost in T1. I'm with you now Spekkio! Buff Necron Econ, Boost IG T3! FW needs 60% FoTM!

[mdigibou]

all that i haveto say is that there was no theorycraft in this thread untill anyone else showed up. my original post explained everything that needed to be explained with numbers and comparable army units.

[SubakuGaara]

FWs are quite nice in t1. Problem is they fail to pull their weight in t2 and t3 unless the tau has gained a significant advantage in t1. Crisis are nice t3 ranged troops but they can't amount to an army's force like 3x WS can or oblits+cloaked plasma. I thought tau were supposed to be ranged? Anyway, if FWs in t3 got one more upgrade that put the damage values somewhere between 26-30 dps, that sounds about right especially when you consider that t3 warp spiders do damage in the 40 range in terms of dps (with a cost difference of just some minor power) and 3x squads of anything can surmount to all the infantry you will need. Just my thoughts. I don't like tau t1 though cause I think its too easy to grab land vs the human races and the human races don't stand up to either kroot or fws very well too.

[Spekkio]

I'd rather see CS get buffed rather than another damage upgrade for FWs.

[mdigibou]

i would like to see the main CS unit buffed slightly as well, but not the priest ;-)


but hell, subaku, as much as i hate to disagree, fw's really DO pull their weight in those scenarios. even though FW only dish out mediocre damage, theyre cutting ALL opposing fire.. in 1/2. like... that means those 40 dps WS are dealing the same as your 20 dps FW. and this is ontop of your 3x CS flamer. (although reapers are fscking ridiculous in tier 3...)

the only reason i have been asking for this t1 FW buff for so long is that they really DONT compete in tier 1 vs anything but maybe guardsmen untill you can manage to mass enough of them. which to me just seems kinda silly. im all for a nerf of kroot, if FW get buffed, simply because right now taus tier 1 not only revolves around them, it depends upon them to have any staying power past the vespid/TC powerhouse.

ok so overall tau tier 1 buffs/nerfs.

make 4x fw cost 200, then each additional cost 70
reduce kroot morale damage almost entirely, buff their health to 350 per unit, change armor type to inf_high. (this would actually make them significantly less viable against ASM, raps, etc other melee specialists than you would like to believe as well as increasing their capacity to take damage, which is what they are SUPPOSEDLY for).
reduce pid jumps to 2, refill slightly faster, increase recharge time on shred by maybe 10s at most.
Tc remains the same, maybe make flamer cost 75/15 or 50/35, and maybe increase snare recharge time by 30 sec, make snare cost 10-20 power. (less spamability, more strategy required, less cost for less number of snares)

would you guys be happy with these suggested buffs/nerfs compilation. consider it over for tau's balance as a race.

[Melonplant]

No on kroot inf high. Maybe in T2 with the feral leap upgrade. I think your 4x fw for 200 is a bit much. Honestly you're begging for a FW spam till win.

Unfortunately, since you're juggling a lot of numbers around, it's really impossible to have any clue without lots of playtesting. Relics balance team (Hard AI computers on random map cycles) will sort through it all.

[mdigibou]

well nvm bout armor change on kroot.

and ya it probabaly would OP the fw's, but im not sure how else to do it rather than either making them cheaper, or increasing their solo effectiveness. if you buff their damage, then in tier 2 they become completely OP with the % damage buff. you know? its a tough act to accomplish

[Warp Holder]

Remember FWs do crap dmg against buildings.
What about removing the T2 dmg upgrade, and put those changes mdigibou posted?

[mdigibou]

you CANNOT remove the APR upgrade unless you want fw to be even MORE useless tier 2
range wise, and damage wise.

also, APR upgrades SS range and damage too fyi.

i do see what melon is saying about the 4x fw being OP, so maybe just make fw come out as 3x and cost 180, 60 for reinforce? same power, size, hp etc. no change to kroot. same changes to TC/Spids

10 per unit wouldnt affect massing THAT much, and would at least give them an eco chance. to spam them against other units in the hope of getting effectiveness if through nothing else than sheer numbers (making tau to IG style of play.... <_< heh..)

[Apathetic]

Originally posted by Apathetic:
How does going ASM automatically result in being outsquadded? If anything you should outsquad them because your capping units can tie-up either FW or the TC long enough for ASM to deal with the other. Scaling is a non-issue as ASM aren't there to win the game, a single squad harasses the Tau hard enough to throw them back on their heels while you tech to T2.

Originally posted by Melonplant:
ASM are not able to beat FW by outsquadding. They hope to god that all the fire warriors are close together and that the TC isn't near enough to the fw to deal flamer damage and the such.

ASM builds are not viable. Mixed builds are encouraged by relic, but the armory requirement gimps tech speed and army speed so much that its a real pain to do. The 3 cap was a huge overnerf.

I often wonder if people who suggest ASM mass to counter tau have ever used space marines beforeMelonplant, please re-read my posts because I never suggested mass ASM. I said a single ASM squad supported by scouts easily outsquads a Tau army at the time when it arrives (2:00-3:00) because the Tau cappers can't fight. Once you've taken the initiative you can decide whether you want to field hw tac or go for gk+chap.

And mdigibou, melonplant - according to RelicWiki kroot are already inf_high, same as Banshees and Sluggas.

[wayfarer]

CS < overwatched kroot + FW? Unpossible!
FC < TC + FW, you say?


Test it yourself?
While the Tau Commander can deal with the more crispy aims aka Guardsman.

That's not the topic here.
SubakuGaara Space Marines Tacs stop scaling in T2 same goes for Guardsman and both are shooty. If Chaos can pull this stunt than they are lucky but that is hardly a balance reasoning.

[Zany Reaper]

Tc remains the same, maybe make flamer cost 75/15 or 50/35, and maybe increase snare recharge time by 30 sec, make snare cost 10-20 power. (less spamability, more strategy required, less cost for less number of snares)NO! Snares must not be changed or Tau will not be able to stand up to melee of any kind in T1 at all!

I'm up for the other chages Mdigibou suggested, perhaps apart from the Kroot one. I think that nerfing the Kroot in favour of buffing Fire warriors would merely involve lowering HP & morale damage slightly. I thought they already had Inf_high armour anyways...

"FC < TC + FW, you say?"
Whilst that is true, this isn't the point. a TC + Fire warriors can easily kill a commander with the right management, but against a horde of raptors or other equally annoying melee units with a commander to top it off at the same cost as the FW + TC combo, that's where Fire warriors need improving.

Maybe instead of an overall damage buff, just make them more powerful to infantry?

[Hawillis]

Space Marines get great heroes and 2x terms and preds. Tau can only invest modestly in T3:
2 crisis - thats <500 rec and a plasma rifle. No surprise I also include FW in my force. But they get f***ed so actually instead I just >>>>> T4 asap.

Yes raps are an issue, but not nearly as much - they have less health and jumps. Also the chaos econ is infinately harassable. spids can kill builders all day long whilst the TC defends as best able.

Still, the worst chaos BO for me would be 2x raps, no gen, 3 cults (who aggressively decap). It leaves little to be harassed and kroot v raptors is painful from the tau side.

Now its fair enough not building FW in this scenario. they cost too much to outsquad the enemy and die too easily. Thats fine, thats a tau vulnerability. I would not dig them out of this hole by giving 4 at 200 because how else you gonna fight the tau?

I would dig them just being more damaging v infantry. up that damage 15% please. Building light damage still needs to be addressed though!

[_McGr3g_]

lets repeat once more:
pids - best unit in t1
tc - one of the best if not the best commander for cost
kroots - excellent malee unit for cost in t1
fw - good dmg but high cost.
so, u want to change it into:
pids - one of the best units in t1
tc - one of the best if not the best commander for cost
kroots - excellent malee unit for cost in t1
fw - excellent ranged unit.
so, all tau units will be euther uber or just below "uberness".
i would propose one more change then:
after this changes tau will be able to play on auto only with other taus. and then i am ok with changes.
and dont even mention tau-csm mu as argument in "tau is weak" thread. this is so one sided in tau favour thats not even funny.

[Zany Reaper]

Building light damage still needs to be addressed though!Fire warriors really don't need to do a lot to buildings or vehicles. You have Vespids & Stealth teams for those things respectively.
Fire warriors just need to be made more effective against infantry, & possibly commanders (although the TC is powerful enough against other Commanders as it is).

Kroot beat Raptors? I thought they tended to simply bring them down to low HP...

[mdigibou]

kroot beat raptors on a 6-4 scale by morale
kroot beat asm on a 5-4 scale by morale
kroot beat guardsmen on a 4-2 scale by morale
kroot beat sm tacs on a 4-3 scale by morale
kroot beat CSM tacs on a 4-3 scale by morale
kroot beat sluggas on a 4-4 scale by damage.
see this here?

and btw tau doesnt NEED snares to compete with melee tier 1. i hardly, if ever use them and i dont remember last time i lost to a melee army, considering if the enemy even has the tiniest bit of brain theyll either bring a detector, use their jump troops and "destroy it", or zerks/nobz dont get the full squad snared by it, so theyre useless there too. /gg

tc sucks absolute balls against commanders. lol
fw do decent commander damage, thats the only reason tau has a chance against ork tier 1.
pids really are not nearly as good as you guys would like to think. they are basically CSM's(same hp, armor type) with less melee damage, and even less melee damage to ... buildings? as well as less ranged damage. yet csm's cost... 190 for 4?? pids cost 150/30 for 3. 30 power is alot when you haveto throw snares every 2 seconds like you non-tau guys would like to do lol.

and i did suggest nerfing pids jumps to 2, because the 3 isnt really necesary at all. its like the 3rd jump is the OH SHI button.

tc is NOT one of the best commanders for cost. the CL or Bigmek is. tc cost 250/55 + 50/15 for the flamer (almost always necesary) +35 power for each snare. thats expensive as HELL. as well as being the MOST fragile commander, and the worst commander against other commanders/ubers. he only BEGINS to pay for himself when the enemy masses infantry and you manage to micro him well without him dying to focus fire.

fw do the same damage as a tac squad.. so you know what, like i said before, make them cost 180 a squad and reinforce for 60. considering that without extra units (spotters) they have the same range as well. /gg



the tau v CSM matchup is only tau sided because you dont know howto deal with vespids. next time try a cult harass into a tac - cl - tac. if you let them kill your builders of course you lose, but ANY race with jump troops on ranged fire can do that you noob. (same for bigmek + shootas) its not just tau.

and once you hit tier 2 and get zerks, there really is just about nothing the tau can do short of building vehicles, then you get one squad of horrors and gfgwtfpwn all his vehicles cus sorc is detector, then if he goes xv8 zerks still win even when broken by flamer and you can tech to tier 3 = gg no re.

[Zany Reaper]

Interestingly enough, Fire warriors & Kroot carnivores do roughly the same damage to infantry & commanders, except that Fire warriors have ranged advantage & visa versa for Kroot.
Yet Kroot come in bigger squads (although they're slightly easier to kill) than fire warriors & are also cheaper.
So Kroot are actually quite a lot better value than Fire warriors!

[mdigibou]

ffs, kroot are taus saving grace. probabaly one of the best performing units in the game for cost.

[Zany Reaper]

Too bad fire warriors are the reverse.

[BeFlat]

FW are fine as they are, just make the shield drones become a proper armour class and make sha'sui worth building!

[RoninOni]

Sha'sui should needs 2 small improvements

Their plasma grenades should be made = Eldar plasma grenades (they are both plasma grenades right?) or at least similiar. As is they are the lowest damaging grenades with no bonus effects.

They should also either
a) Be given the same rifle as the rest of the squad, maybe more accurate.
b) Have a proper carbine that causes slow like SS as well as have the squad NOT run forward to meet his range when trying to focus fire. (I actually DONT build him for this very reason. I used to if I was floating, but now I think he actually hampers the squad)

[Xanthian]

As is they are the lowest damaging grenades with no bonus effects.

Stormboys would beg to differ. Although stormboy grenades do have a secondary effect, they have less than half the area of effect, and do even less damage.

But then again, it's not like stormboys have to pay for stikkbombs, I guess. They just have to settle for losing to kroot in melee, lol, especially for cost.

[Zany Reaper]

Fire warriors still need a buff. These arguments put above don't help against Fire warriors at all, & as of such are still terribly bad value!
Heck, even guardsmen are better value than Fire warriors, regardless of the squad tax!

[RoninOni]

Stick bombs do have ridiculous AOE, but the damage is almost =, stickbombs 75-85, photon grenades do 85 so only an avg of 5 damage. Plue a 15seconds shorter cooldown, so technically, they have higher DPS (albeit to fewer targets) with knockdown. Which really is all the photon grenades need. though AOE of 4 would be a bit small lol.

I would like to see some sort of FW buff/cost reduction though, as is im about to start spamming kroot in t1

[wayfarer]

Fire warriors still need a buff. These arguments put above don't help against Fire warriors at all, & as of such are still terribly bad value!
Heck, even guardsmen are better value than Fire warriors, regardless of the squad tax!

In T1 I would take Firewarriors before guardsmen T2 is different but just because of the commie and priests.
On the other side in T1 Guardsman are just pathetic scouts.
Don't compare a limousine with a beetle.

Hey I would make the deal if we get those nice SS too.

[RoninOni]

SS are nice no doubt,
FW are strong but expensive in T1
So expensive in fact that investing in them will easily seriously delay tech to t2 as they are, I believe, the most expensive T1 unit (besides SS which noone reinforces in t1 anyway)

[_McGr3g_]

the tau v CSM matchup is only tau sided because you dont know howto deal with vespids. next time try a cult harass into a tac - cl - tac. if you let them kill your builders of course you lose, but ANY race with jump troops on ranged fire can do that you noob. (same for bigmek + shootas) its not just tau.
well, i find it quite easy to kill those builders. 1450 chaos was 2 nooby to defend i guess. in my 5th game as tau. ehh.

So expensive in fact that investing in them will easily seriously delay tech to t2 as they are, I believe, the most expensive T1 unit (besides SS which noone reinforces in t1 anyway)
reapers cost the same and your rax is one of the cheapest out there.

except few tau fanboys i dont see any1 agreein with this tau buffs anyway, so not worthy to post here anyway, for them it always will be 2 weak anyways.

[RoninOni]

yah, and tau have 1 sec set up time, no FoF, 100 less HP and they get a more starting damage vs certain inf types and an extra 5 range T1. DR's also upgrade to far more damage w/ superior optics + exarch.

Not saying DR >>> FW, but they are more survivable with all that mobility, and damage is damn near almost as good. Im also not saying I don't ever use FW's either. I use them, I am just leaning to using more kroot in T1 when money is tight instead

[farseer_derek]

FW are strong but expensive in T1
So expensive in fact that investing in them will easily seriously delay tech to t2 as they are, I believe, the most expensive T1 unit (besides SS which noone reinforces in t1 anyway)

just as expensive as dark reapers, less expensive than asm (although they are t1.5 but when you use them you generally get them coming out just a little later than t1 troops), less expensive than raptors.

ok this has been discussed to death now.

lets recap

FW have really good t1 anti-infantry dps, it is the best t1 anti-infantry ranged troops damage i do beleive
FW are not slow. they move at normal infantry speed
FW have the best t1 harassing unit in the game to complement them (vespids
FW have the best cappers in the game, jumpjets + T2 scaling + invis anyone?
FW have the best support hero in the game, TC does really good anti-infantry dps and has snares to complement your troops, he also scales with uber disruption T2...

how are FW underpowered again? you have to look at the race as a whole, not just vacuums,

sure FW < DR
but 2 squads of DR << 1 squad of FW + TC

[RoninOni]

Im not even a big Tau player so I don't have to much experience with them :P

[Spekkio]

No one has really been smart enough to put together the proof of FWs being underpowered:

You have to look at races where vespids have minimal to no effectiveness as an uber t1 harasser. The two races where this happens are Necrons and to a lesser extent Orks/IG.

Tau is hopeless against Necrons because the Tau main unit, FWs, cannot kill any t1 spammed Necron unit faster than they can reinforce. Sure, vespids might be able to get a gen or two, but you're not really doing much considering that NW squads are free. Once the NL comes out, he's going to permanently chase the TC around.

It's easy to say that Necrons are overpowered, but I don't think this is the case. A nooby FO spam from Necrons will die easily to HB spam from the MEQ races, big shootas from orks (plus ork buildings), and reaper spam from Eldar. The two races that cannot deal with Necron t1 are Tau and IG. They simply do not put out enough damage until tier 2, and by then it's already too late.

Incidentally, this is why Tau can take on IG t1 even though the effectiveness of vespids/ss harass is extremely limited thanks to IG's defensive style. In a 1v1 slugfest, the FWs will come out on top unless IG invests heavily in tier 1 to get grenades. But personally, when I see grenades on IG squads I tend to try for vehicles asap.

When it comes to Orks, vespids function as a support unit to disrupt sluggas and big shootas. Nothing more, nothing less. If you try to chew up Waagh banners, they are going to die or be left with 1 man by the time you finish destroying it. This is hardly a useful way to use your resources. The result is being overrun by big shootas/stormboys far too often. The former should never happen considering that Tau is a shooty specialist army and Orks are a melee specialist army, but it does.

This is the real evidence that FWs need a damage buff in the absence of 3-jump uber morale damage vespids. But that's ONLY IF vespids are nerfed.

[Xanthian]

The result is being overrun by big shootas/stormboys far too often. The former should never happen considering that Tau is a shooty specialist army and Orks are a melee specialist army, but it does.

The former never happens unless you're a bad player. Either he's running his fragile ass shootas into melee range with your fire warriors, and your kroot/crisis suits/tc flamer are breaking their morale and completely outclassing them, or else he's trying to shoot your fire warriors with them, in which case shield drones will win the day. (Unless I'm mistaken and shield drones are tier 3, and not tier 2, in which case, standard "noob" clause applies, but I could have sworn to god the last time I played, they were tier 2.)

Either way, tau tier 1 melee > ork tier 1 melee. If you're being overrun by stormboys and sluggas, build more kroot. Kroot will gut them, and then eat them. So much for the "tau = ranged and orks = melee" myth.

[shorn]

You can't build "more kroot" in t1. About 3 squads is all you can do. Tau pop cap increases automatically as he techs. So the only hope to get more kroot is to go to t2. Which most races can manage to easily outsquad.

Yes shield drones are t2. And crisis suits are t3. Spekkio was talking about even getting to t2 without the vespid advantage.

*edit*
To be clear, that is 3 squads no matter what you have. Any mix of FW/Vespid/Kroot = 3 squads in T1. Plus the TC who is no pop of course, and a couple of SS, but they aren't combatant troops in T1.

[wayfarer]

You are not the only one who has pop cap issues. If others can outsquad you they must have delayed their tech in favor of an upgrade or another building that gives further pop cap. At least your pop cap is very efficient used. And your high mobility makes sure that you decide when to fight and the your stealthed scouts are pretty good too most others must get an upgrade to detect and harass them.

[shorn]

I wasn't saying that Tau T1 sucked or anything(though I do think it is a bit off kilter). I was just commenting that the "build more kroot" response was not really a possibility. Atleast in T1

And yes invisible cappers are nice(unless you are fighting orks/eldar/sometimes chaos/and usually Tau in which it doesn't matter) but unlike Guardian squads, GM's, Scouts, Cultists, they do not add to your fighting force. And most races are able to add to pop cap without teching if they need to. In fact several races have a capper/T1 unit spam BO. Which means that the Tau get out squadded.

Again, I'm not claiming Imba here. I'm just pointing out some things.

[wayfarer]

Same here. I just pointed out that this is not a viable reason to argue about.

Look at the Guard. Their T1 it is only a Tech level because we get the OP CS building basher and the TP Turret Spam.

Tau get the Kroot, Vespid, Tau Commander, Stealth Suite and an arguable mediocre Firewarrior Squad.

[RoninOni]

SS add to combat effectiveness, just not till T2 (Same as GM really) when they get all those nifty upgrades.

Personally I wouldn't mind forgoing Vespids till t2.5 if it meant FW got better if there was only another way to detect in T1.

Someone had even suggested once swiching PF and SS in the tier tree (but leaving Mark target until T2) PF would be slightly more effective to assist combat in T1 having the slowing ability, but then pop cap would become even a bigger issue. and no stealth cappers would mean that Tau would need other improvements in T1 (as that is one of their major saving graces for T1)

[Spekkio]

The former never happens unless you're a bad player. Either he's running his fragile ass shootas into melee range with your fire warriors, and your kroot/crisis suits/tc flamer are breaking their morale and completely outclassing them, or else he's trying to shoot your fire warriors with them, in which case shield drones will win the day. (Unless I'm mistaken and shield drones are tier 3, and not tier 2, in which case, standard "noob" clause applies, but I could have sworn to god the last time I played, they were tier 2.)

Either way, tau tier 1 melee > ork tier 1 melee. If you're being overrun by stormboys and sluggas, build more kroot. Kroot will gut them, and then eat them. So much for the "tau = ranged and orks = melee" myth.
I love the irony in your post. You don't even know when shield drones come into play, but you feel the need to call me a noob for being overrun by big shootas. Then you proceed to tell me tier 2 and 3 answers to a tier 1 problem. Good job, dipshit.

Big shootas = t1.5. All the shit you're telling me about drones, cs, and whatever is already after that. Fragile they may be, but Orks can mass them faster and they outdamage FWs (by a ton w/ blastier but that's later) with comparable range AND they have fotm. They have to be in melee range to shoot fws?!? Wtf are you smoking? Big shootas have the same range as FWs in tier 1. You teleport bigmech into FW mass, tie up some squads, walk in big shootas, tau = pwnt. It wouldn't be an issue if imba ork buildings being put up by cloaked builders didn't stop you from harassing them before t2.5. This is doubly so because once a waagh banner goes up, you have nothing to use as a LOS on the ork buildings until pathfinders. The best you could hope to do against orks is harass one of their outer points on a large map, but while you're doing that he can send a big mech squad up the Tau backside and do much more damage since Tau has no turrets and their LP2s suck.

Kroot are a bad answer to stormboys for the same reason that zerks are a bad answer to vespids - mobility. If the ork is gonna be noob enough to stand there and let his stormboys be meleed by kroot, then he deserves to lose. What he should be doing if he sees multiple squads of kroot is running around and building bashing. And if you go kroot against shoota boys, you're gonna end up losing because range > melee, and all the ork player has to do is dance you towards LP2 + waagh banner and there goes all your kroot.

But you guys are still all missing the point: if you look at mu's where vespids play a reduced role in t1, you start to see the weakness of t1 firewarriors.

[RoninOni]

Lets not forget either Shootas melee is far better than FW melee (if forced into it, say by wraiths etc...) and cost less per HP.

Im really looking into doing either a 2x kroot Spid, TC, + 2 SS capper build or a 3x kroot build... :-\

[mdigibou]

something you must know about the ork matchup.
kroot -> TC - > kroot -> fw
+spid.
3 tieup squads for big shootas, TC to dance around them while BM chases, fw to shoot sluggas/run from sluggas.
kroot first to prevent sluggas harass.
but again, as every thread in this forum does, this has derailed.

and spekkio presents a valid point. I never thought about how the matchup of tauVig would be affected by this, but i guess not so much seeing as tau cant go kroot anyway cus dancing + CS = gg kroot. and each individual guardsmen wouldnt drop any slower =P. vespids still play their role decently in that matchup (disruption, tieup). so that might imba the tauVig matchup, but it would likely fix others such as eldar, Sm. chaos tier 1 is still boned v tau, but its not like it matters with a swift tier 2 -> gg.

maybe nerf vespid jumps to 2, make sonic pulse knock back units not so far? (keeps ig in the game somewhat)

@McGreg. congrats.. youre a 1400 chaos a cron?? do you want a medal? those arent exactly the hardest races to play :P

[RoninOni]

LoL I was thinking that too md (about McGreg).

[Xanthian]

but you feel the need to call me a noob for being overrun by big shootas.

I was calling myself a noob, because I don't play tau or 'cron nearly as much as the other 5 races. (Still waiting on a patch where the consensus is that 'cron and tau are valid choices for people who don't want to exploit easy wins. Haven't played chaos in a long while either.)

And if tau shield drones are tier 2, then they're perfectly well placed to deal with big shoota massing, since orks can only accumulate enough big shootas at roughly that point in the game in the first place. (Also, compare the range and hitpoints on a fire warrior versus the range and hitpoints on a shoota boy with a big shoota -- then compare the cost. I'll be damned if people keep claiming that big shootas are easily massable, and yet fire warriors aren't.)

[Warp Holder]

It is somewhat worrying that a melee oriented race can have shootouts "all good an' proper" with a shooty race.

[mdigibou]

tau can tide the BS mass, the real problem comes when you have a big melee army of kroots and nobz show up. at least kroot last long enough to getyou some fire support.

[Xanthian]

It is somewhat worrying that a melee oriented race can have shootouts "all good an' proper" with a shooty race.

I never said anything at all about chaos having shootouts with tau. Only orks.

And ork tier 1 is NOT, NOT, repeat, NOT melee oriented, and hasn't been ever since winter assault was released. Nothing in the ork army in tier 1 can kill anything at melee range except for the big mek himself. Stormboys and sluggas are strictly tie-up and will lose to kroot in melee, ESPECIALLY for cost. (30 req slugga or 40 req stormboy loses to 20 req kroot in melee -- gg) Ork tier 1 is mixed arms. Ranged + tie up. There's no melee kick at all in the army until nobs take the field -- and even then, they're not as good as chaos melee.

It'd be somewhat worrying if tau both outmeleed and was guaranteed to outshoot ork. Kinda like pre-patch necrons, with sluggas and stormboys losing to necron warriors in melee, and shootas dying to necron warrior ranged spam once the first upgrade hit.

[Sentaro]

where did you pull the 20 req from ?
Relicwiki says 45 req and ingame tooltip also shows 45 req

[Zany Reaper]

Stormboyz will kill kroot carnivores if they outnumber them, & that isn't hard to do.

As of such, The issue of Fire warriors being crap still isn't being discussed. This thread should probably be renamed to 'DC[1.2]FW uselessness in tier 1'

[mdigibou]

haha ya.

and stormboyz actually BARELY beat kroot after the first choppy upgrade.

[Xanthian]

Hmmph. Guess that shows me.

I always thought kroot were basically a stock throwaway unit much like guardians or cultists or guardsmen, (probably had more to do with their unit footprint than anything else) hence it royally pissed me off that a stock throwaway melee unit beat the pants off sluggas and stormboys.

Since kroot actually cost more than stormboys to begin with, I have no valid complaints to be made against them anymore, since the fight is actually slightly close. I really need to double check the wiki for races I don't play much. Grr.

On closer examination, vanilla kroot are really nowhere near as good as vanilla banshees, even, and I guess that means I should be having more luck repelling them than I have been. *sigh* -- back to the drawing board.

So, tau tier 1 vs ork seems to be more of an issue of quantity vs quality. With orks being all about quantity, and kroot being quantity versus fire warriors being quality.

[mdigibou]

meh you cant go fw first vs ork.
go ahead, play a good ork and try it.

[Zany Reaper]

you can't go with Vespids & TC against Orks either, let alone with Fire warriors.

It's also really annoying that Fire warriors, being the most expensive T1 troops in the game, get beaten by Necron warriors (that is, when the Necron warriors get into range, which they often do as they're fairly easy to spam out).

[Xanthian]

Why not just snare trap the necron warriors? The tau commander can make sure there are no scarabs around in detector range, and it's not exactly hard to hit warriors with snare traps as they're not *really* much of a moving target...

The problem is dealing with wraiths, obviously, not warriors.

Edit: Especially wraiths as detectors. D'oh.

[Zany Reaper]

That's what I have to resort to - using snares, but that's only to make it easier to break them with the flamer.
However, that's not fire warriors alone - that's fire warriors being supported. The fire warriors don't really do an awful lot if the Necron lord is chasing them around, unless you snare him too.
But if you snare him, then what do you do about the Necron warriors?

[BeFlat]

I dont really see the need of FW needing of a buff in T1.

FW beat all but reapers. Only problem in t1 is jump troop mass + ranged fotm aka
stormboy spam + shoota mass.->later nobz+ wartrukks omg

There for I advise to make Tau's lp2 EQUAL to other races lp2.

39.4 dps vs inf heavy med

SM lp2 does 51 dps


Tau's lp2 has 2400hp Sm lp2 has 2812

[mdigibou]

fw lose to tacs as well btw

and beflat... are you serious?? what youre doing is saying "HEY TAU WHO DOESN'T LIKE DEFENSE, BUFF LP2 BUT NO BUFF FOR UNIT YOU SHOULD HAVE LOLOLOL"

and uhh jump troops are no problem for fw's. fw's easily outmass all jumptroops besides stormboyz, but they are the weakest and go down the fastest anyways.
fw's real problem is in a 1 for 1 mass of fw v other ranged units.

fw lose hands down to most ranged units. SM tacs, chaos tacs, NW, and reapers(+exarch).
if you reinforce the fw once v tacs, then tacs get 2x more guys, and again, win.


the only way fw's actually beat anything tier 1 is by superior numbers, in which case, they should win anyways just by mass alone.
check the original post for numbers which are taken straight off the relic wiki.

[Spekkio]

FWs don't lose to tacs if they have a LOS. So let's say FWs are defending their LP...tell me how Tacs are supposed to get into 25 range in t1 without losing so many guys in the process that the battle becomes a landslide for FWs when they get there. The only way to do this is if the tacs outnumber FWs significantly, in which case FWs SHOULD lose the battle.

[BeFlat]

and uhh jump troops are no problem for fw's. fw's easily outmass all jumptroops besides stormboyz, but they are the weakest and go down the fastest anyways.

fw's real problem is in a 1 for 1 mass of fw v other ranged units.

lol, think u need to learn to play man...

firewarriors will NEVER outmass jumptroops except ASM, simply because u can have just 4 FW squads in t1 (if u r a noob, u build that vs jumptroops), but who the hell will be dumb enough to build 4 FW squads?? no building dmg at all...t2 anti inf vehicles=GG

I don't have any problems with shooty armies, and that's how it should be!
FW own every shooty army except warspiders (which are close range shooties xD )

oh btw, according to this:

and beflat... are you serious?? what youre doing is saying "HEY TAU WHO DOESN'T LIKE DEFENSE, BUFF LP2 BUT NO BUFF FOR UNIT YOU SHOULD HAVE LOLOLOL"


Yes, I am. Tau doesnt like defence? In your dreams man! Tau actually has sentry turrets!

[mdigibou]

ummm.... wow tau doesn't even know what defending is. it is COMPLETELY unfluffy to them. and their "turret" sucks pretty hard

and as well, all good jump troops cost more than fw's. how is it HARDER to mass fw than jump troops??? im so confused here where you are getting anything you are saying?

spekkio in case you havent noticed, tacs shoot just at the end of the sight range of a regular LP? in which case, youre still camping an LP, and the scouts/asm are still elsewhere.

you give 6x fw a spotter, thats 10x tacs. 10x tacs > 6x fw + SS even at max range tier 1.
check the numbers and do the math with the speed and everything, youll see. and these 2 cost about the same. actually i think you can add another tac onto that, but w/e. just more overkill

it still stands that tacs have more "effective" range than fw's anyways. with the larger sight range. and if an equal number of tac squads even manage to "break the ranks" of the fw's, they are done for, no chance for retribution.

[Xanthian]

You're talking about the whole thing as if fire warriors needed to be bunched up in order to do the killing. The whole point of exploiting superior range. You spread them out. If the tacs overrun one squad, they still have three firing at them. The greater line of sight stems from the fact that a squad is under assault by another squad (who isn't doing damage because of crappy fire on the move), but 3 squads are hurting the attacking force from complete safety.

[Cold_Crusader]

check the numbers and do the math

This statement pretty much sums up what you (and a few others), mdigibou, have been saying for about 200 post now. Everything you've given us is pure theorycraft.

I might be more inclined to agree with you if you let me see labs of FWs vs. Tacs, etc. As an SM player, I'm pretty such FWs rip tacs apart.

[mdigibou]

wait.. cold crusader.. what the FUCK??

im the starter of this topic and made the ORIGINAL post SHOWING the numbers...


fucking idiots need to fucking lern2read im tired of this nub BS. no other game has such a large collection of people who can't actually read.. this is ridiculous

[wayfarer]

Cool down have you ever thought about that most players must outmass Tau to get their feed on the ground. Have you considered that they must delay their fucking tech. Just to hold ground against you?
Don't come me with fluff and outnumbered I run around with 2 Guard Squads and the CS in almost all matchups. Perhaps Guards are too rock hard in T1 and too darned cheap?

[mdigibou]

im only bitching because hes saying that im only theorycrafting and its very clear that i've been one of the only people backing up my posts with #'s and evidence