[DC 1.2] IG balance suggestions

[skid']

Been done to death, I know. I haven't actually taken part in any of the IG balance threads, but I have seen them, many times over. I honestly believe that IG got the right kind of nerfs in 1.2, well almost. They got nerfs to later tiers. Some bugs cleaned up here and there (oddly bugs that helped IG are all gone, but bugs that hurt them remain), but I really want to see IG compete in tier 1 rather than speeding along to tier 2 like always, and some key changes to some of thier units.

Anyway, here are my ideas:

Command squad: Cost decrease from 120/25 to 120/20. Why -5 power? So you dont need to construct a gen to get a full command squad in tier one. Not building a gen, as IG, might be seen as silly, but it's only fair since all the other races can get thier heroes out without a gen. You might then build a fourth GM squad instead of a gen, in tier 1. With the cost buff, you would still have a full command squad.

Basilisk: Reduce the cost 150/300 to 150/250, keep the pop cap the same.

Generators: Lower the cost of generators 165 to 150.

Guardsmen: Lower cost from 160 to 150.

Tactica: Lower cost from 150/50 to 135/50.

GM armor upgrade: Lower cost from 100/50 to 75/25.

What I reeeeally want to see is IG have more freedom in tier 1. You wanna do a no-gen 4 GM build? Fine, you still got your full CS with it. The cost buffs add up and allow a little more tier 1 breathing room. Basis got nerfed to hell, at least drop their cost a little to compensate.

Please fix the IG LP-LP2-LP3 so that it's range and Hps are like SM and CSM LPs. IG are suppose to be defensive, yet their LPs suck? Ohkay then. And yes I know they can bunker. I would hope the masters of defense have some kind of edge over the more standard races.

That's it.

[RoninOni]

IG can be ridiculously expensive early on. Things turn around in late tiers (which were nerfed in 1.2) and I think a cheaper lower tier would help compensate :).

Definatly agree with dropping CS 5 power, it would add some versatility.
I would also like to see something done to improve the option of the Tactica build.
I think a 2 Commie+GM+nades + 1 base capping GM squad should be more of a viable tier1 build. It can be done obviously, but when no top ranking players use it you must question its value

[phoenixzs]

I usually have resource floating around;For me the IG durability and efficiency is low.Even if I get another GM squad I dont think that will change much.IG has nearly zero felixibility.CS is a must,rading with it is a must.
IG GM should reinforce much faster as they get upgrades(also by tiers basic guardsmen damage should incease IMO) and those heavy weapon should also get faster to reinforce....(so goes on other threads)
Anyway I dont want to repeat my self all I want to say is cost is not the primary problem.The problem is you have to invest in something.I dont think more money could help while fighting Fragoons or dark reapers.I played a bit DowPro today and there are some very good ideas back there,needs a bit balancing but still great.
Simply in tier 1 if enemy knows exactly what I am doing and have no felixibility I am a toast.

[Melonplant]

Don't you need an IC for a commisar?

[mdigibou]

you seriously want these kind of economy buffs for IG? youve got to be joking.

150 cost gens? when already you guys benefit from the better tier 2 economy upgrades.

not only that, but a full CS is better than just about any other commander. 2x priest > FC, BM, nl
priest + psyker > TC, FS

[Manimator]

I'd like to see some sort of upgrade for the command squad.

It's health is ok for early game, except when they go up against other commanders reinforced with troops.

But in a late game setup the squad is gone as soon as it charges forward, then you have to wait ages for it to become full strength again, much like the tau commander.

Maybe some sort of upgrade that increases the health and morale, or ups the armour value.

Also the bugs within the command squad need to be sorted out.

I agree with the baslisk thing, at the end of the day they are the worst artillery unit but the most expensive.

200/200 for an earth shaker round is rather expensive when most of the time it doesnt even hit.

Either give the tracking back or decrease it by 50/50 IMO

Guard are a good race, they just tend to get owned the enemy start using anything harder than plastic.

[Angry Rhinp]

mdigibou, cs also costs more and is easier to kill than any other commander. and btw a) no one does 2xpreist cs cause its easy to kill and doesnt work well, and b) cs cannot solo force commander in any config and beating the mek, chaos lord relies soley on all attacks being focused on the general and not the advisors. Necron lord beats them bad with LF, tc can outmaouver them, snare em and TA the general for an instagib. And the farseer... well she just sucks vs the all commanders but is the bane of guardsmen squads, so no your above statements are false. I don't know hoever if 150 req gens are viable because ig gens do upgrade cheap and easy. If the bassy gets no buff back into viability, however, IG vehicles in teir 2 remain a liiiiiiitle bit weak.

[RoninOni]

Yah, I'm (unfortunately) switching to SM because their inf work better :P.

Mobile HW crews in Rhinos rock :D I just hate SM fluff... I always hate being 'The good guys'

Actually, Maybe I'll do Chaos... the HW crews aren't exactly as strong, but they can infil trate.... and horrors work great for AV :)

[mdigibou]

uhh lightning field then makes the NL MUUUUUUCH more expensive than the CS. 175 + archive + research... ya thats quite a bit more than 300/80?

im talking stock commanders here.

and a priest+psyker combo wtfpwns a TC. it runs so much faster the jump hardly even matters. and a TA isnt an instagib, even after it still has about 200 hp's of commander armor. something the TC isnt very able to deal with. not to mention you have detection so snares arent even an issue.

the ONLY thing i agree with here are the bassies

[Zany Reaper]

I agree with half of the suggestions on the 1st post, but I'd prefer something more along these lines:

Basilisk: Don't bother cheapening it, just improve its reload time to say, 7 seconds.

Generators: Don't bother, they don't need their generators buffed.


Guardsmen: Scrap that, make it 120 req. There's almost no reason to give them a squad cap in the 1st place seeing as they're barely more powerful (individually) than other race's scout units. They also move at normal speed too, not at typical faster scout speed.

Tactica: Again, there's no reason for this to be cheapened. Just make guardsmen more useful.

GM armor upgrade: Guardsmen are supposed to be weak! Cheapening guardsmen would be enough rather than cheapening this too.

Heavy weapon team: Don't forget the excessive build time on this. Maybe make it 36 instead of 45?

[Maktaka]

I just hate SM fluff... I always hate being 'The good guys'
No worries there, Space Marines are 'good' like the majority of the Crusades were 'good'.

On topic, you'll still need a generator to get a GOOD Command Squad, i.e. one with a priest. You also will need a gen to get to T2. As it is, there really isn't a good way for IG to get to T2 without two gens. They either need a power intensive CS, power intensive turret rush, or power intensive Tactica+GL. I don't think there's any way to change this mechanic, nor do I think it should be changed.

Basilisk cost reduction looks good. I'd prefer a reload time reduction (with a matching damage reduction to maintain DPS) so the unit can do good disruption again, but this could work too. Anything that encourages the production of multiple Basilisks is good, because right now they suck on their own.

Generators. I'd be careful about that. As mdigibou pointed out, IG resource researches are far and away the best in the game, especially the two power researches. The problem with IG T1 isn't so much their economy as it is getting cost effective forces on the field. Reducing the GM squad tax would go a long way towards dealing with this issue. Embracing the idea that IG are less cost-efficient but giving them a better economy is a dangerous road towards Necrons.

GM squad tax reduction. Definitely. Improves the cost effectiveness of GM in T1, one of the biggest problems facing IG, and has little effect on the higher tiers where the squad tax has less of an impact.

Tactica cost reduction. Make it a power reduction instead (say 150/25 or 150/30). The biggest problem facing Tactica builds is the incredible power investment required to do it right: 250 power for the Tactica, Battle Armor, Death before Dishonor, and 9 GLs. More if you want to get HQ Psykers for detection or Sergeants for better GM. Ouch. Bring down the power cost on that collection however you can (HQ Psyker stone removal and cost reduction to what CS Psykers cost).

Battle Armor cost reduction. Perhaps a little too aggressive (I think 100/30 might be a bit better), but definitely a good step. Again, power reduction is of vital importance to any T1 Tactica-related activities.

[RoninOni]

I agree w/ Maktaka

But add in Slight cost, larger build time reductions to HWT

[skid']

Things work fine the way they are, IG are almost were they should be... it's certain units of the other races that need tweaking. Specifically Dark Reapers, Rangers, and Vespids. The problem lies with those units and their cost effectivness, not with IG units. Even so, GLs make mince meat out of Dark reapers, but can you afford to field them? Is it possible to construct the tactica, IC, CS, gen, and field GLs in IG's current form? No, and that's why it's a problem in tier 1.

Things are too expensive and that's why the other races units, namely Reapers and Rangers, are so good at dealing with IG. If I could field GLs, with bonus health, and a CS Eldar would be a much easier foe to face. I'd have a CS to deal with the ranger threat and GLs to deal with Dark Reapers.

The Basi either needs some sort of buff in some form. Be it a cost buff, or maybe it should be more effective.

[RoninOni]

more effective bassi highly preffered over cheaper still non-effective bassi.

I'd pay even more for a 5 second same DPS bassi

[magicalcarpet]

not only that, but a full CS is better than just about any other commander. 2x priest > FC, BM, nl
priest + psyker > TC, FS


and a priest+psyker combo wtfpwns a TC. it runs so much faster the jump hardly even matters. and a TA isnt an instagib, even after it still has about 200 hp's of commander armor. something the TC isnt very able to deal with. not to mention you have detection so snares arent even an issue.

Ok, 2x Priest can beat FC in melee IF the disruption attack dice roll well.. or if the SM doesn't just continue to use the massive swing. Despite being a lot more expensive and having a much longer buildtime. And having incredibly inferior ranged attack. And being able to attach.

and yeah.. the TC is gonna die if you leave it in melee. If the Tau player has some concept of what micro is, gl killing the TC some time this century.

Not advocating a buff for the CS but you painted a pretty sketchy picture.

[Ajhayter]

The problem is that if the Guardsmen can get Gl early on, they easily kill most opposing troops. Longest range infantry with disruption? Hell they wipe the floor with most infantry.

Either somthing really radical needs doing to improve guard effectiveness (like being able to build a single Chimera from the HQ in Teir 0, but I can already see huge problems with that, since a chimera+3GM squads will lay waste to infantry anyway), or a slight change such as a cost reduction for the guard. 120 for a squad of 5.

My other idea is a new unit. Kasrkin Special Ops Squad. A unit of 4 Kasrkin with infiltration. Limit 1, Squad cap usage of 2. Provides the guard with much needed scout and hit-n-run capabilities.

Easy to make as well. Just duplicate the guard_squad_kasrkin_sp.rgd and edit the values. Inject infiltration and there you go.

[Melonplant]

No no no. Grenade launchers early on mean no teching.

Outtech them get vehicles. Its really silly because the IG player will not only have to tech as fast as he can when he sees your machine stuff, and not enough time to do it too.

IG have a very strong early T1 against some races (not so much against orks)

CS harass, followed by turtling until t1, then hellhounds and/ or priests with plasma to t4 for the heavy guns. IG to a T for ya.

They do NOT need early t1 buffs. Just buff in between t1 and t2 and maybe slight compensation nerfs to t2?

[mdigibou]

and the TC cant outrun a CS+priest. kinda like a TC cant outrun a FoF FS. go ahead, try it. you just get a perma-danced TC. maybe even some damage animations goin on. im not bitching, just trying to set the facts straight.

the command squad is really one of the best commanders in the game just because of his flexibility and insane building damage. Building damage the FC cant even dream of.

[phoenixzs]

IG needs felixibility in the first tier.
Maybe giving back their flamer option is a good idea.Also squad sergeants should start with plasma pistol I think.

And I would have killed some body to just see some things from DowPro.Depot in the main building,sentinel flamer options hellhound and chimera machineguns are just avesome(Last bit is perhaps unneeded).That bunkering upgrade is also very good also.

But what IG needs is definiately options.

[skid']

Notice I made no insane suggestions. Like adding new members to the Command Squad, or giving GM new heavy weapons, or radical ideas like 90% of balance suggestion threads. I asked for a simple changes for the prices of stuff that's already there, working. In addition to fixing the hella' lot's of bugs IG have to deal with, some simple pricing buffs would help their early game.

OPTION B is you go back and fix every unit that corrupts the IG MU. Meaning rangers, reapers, Cron economy, and Vespids. But rangers, reapers, and vespids corrupt every MU, not just IG so it's a simple problem that needs fixing.

So either something has to be given to aid IG's early games so that IG isnt a free win for Eldar, or you nerf those key units. Simple.

IG vs SM: Working in IG's favor most of the time.
IG vs CSM: Again, in IG's favor.
IG vs Ork: Even match up.
IG vs Eldar: Completely broken favoring Eldar, ranges from total domination to just a hard game.
IG vs Tau: Map dependant, favoring Tau most of the time.
IG vs Necron: Completely broken favoring Necron, ranges from total domination to just a hard game.

Look at the Tau, Cron, Eldar MU's what's not working? Some facts.

Eldar has rangers and reapers, very imbalanced units that destroy anything non-GL ig gm in seconds. Easily deals with "The Best hero in the game." Eldar takes complete map control, then has a better econ, techs faster, continues to mass, free win.

Tau has Vespids. The TC is countered by the CS so he's fine. Vespids are far too cost effective on certain maps where IG can't camp and points are spread out. Map dependant. On the wrong map, vespids with wipe out GM, GL or no, in seconds leaving your econ crippled.

Cron's economy is untouchable and IG lacks ways to deal significant ranged damage early. They don't have Big Shootas or CSM heavy bolters which deal wicked ranged damage pre tier 2. They also have trouble fielding enough GM squads to not be effected by wraiths/NL. Key Necron abilities, suchs as solar pulse and LF, make this impossible if the Cron is of equal skill.

Either buff IG, or fix those problem MUs. That's all that can be done.

[Slow_Runner]

What do you suppose would happen to IG vs SM, IG vs CSM and IG vs Ork match-ups if IG got the buffs you suggest?

[philgreg]

I have to doubt too the "CS can deal with the TC" statement. You mean, the TC bumps into the CS just as it reinforces priest, and critical shot +2 seconds shooting kills the general.

[skid']

What do you suppose would happen to IG vs SM, IG vs CSM and IG vs Ork match-ups if IG got the buffs you suggest?

Fine, then don't fix IG, fix those units I mentioned, and there's your answer. Do something about rangers, which effects mostly every MU. Tone down Reapers slightly, since ELdar need reapers for Cron MU. Do something about vespid spawn time. Knock them back 30-40 seconds. I don't have an answer for Cron. I have no idea what you could do with their economy.

There's your fix. Fix those units, and IG is balanced. Fix the tons of IG bugs however.

I wonder why this thread isn't getting so many hits as the other balance threads. I should have suggested that you give IG motorcycle bikers that run around capping points. Maybe I shoulda said an Orgyrn in the command squad. Maybe an Ion cannon ability that inverts base positions.

Seems the more silly the balance suggestions, the more community response.

[santiago4ever]

Command squad: Cost decrease from 120/25 to 120/20.

IIRC the generals cost was increased to 25 power SPECIFICALLY to make IG require a gen to max out the CS. Why you ask? Because it was the only possible way to nerf the CS + 4x guardsmen + TP rush, which was damn near uncounterable for races like SM and chaos on small maps, without shooting IG in the foot completely. It was easier to slightly nerf the CS then to do any kind of nerfs to the guardsmen which could have caused far more serious problems.

[magicalcarpet]

and the TC cant outrun a CS+priest. kinda like a TC cant outrun a FoF FS. go ahead, try it. you just get a perma-danced TC. maybe even some damage animations goin on. im not bitching, just trying to set the facts straight.

the command squad is really one of the best commanders in the game just because of his flexibility and insane building damage. Building damage the FC cant even dream of.

TC in perma-dance = win for Tau. I realise the CS outruns TC but it won't kill. The CS is just the best for T1 harass + T2 cotms. 'Versatility' is really just a billion roles roles tied to the CS. eg. you must get a psyker vs. Eldar to detect, must get priest vs. anybody to do building damage, must get psyker t2 vs. heavy vehicles..

[Melonplant]

Oh so this is a necron thread now.

I say reduce the power requirement of grenade launchers so that they are a better option, but do something else to make it so they aren't a SPAMMABLE option....

[santiago4ever]

This is not a necron thread. Get back on topic please.

[mdigibou]

spids are no where near the problem you think they are. with your additional building damage, a full squad of spids takes 2 casualties downing an lp1 with bunkered 1 squad. thats a cost of 100/20 to tau, and 100 (- bonus req) to you. spids cant even decap by themselves.

nerf them slightly if anything. like ranged inf damage or something.

reapers+rangers need a severe nerf anyways. just between setuptime/ FoF/ sight range/ cloaking/ shooting range.... SOMETHING.

necrons.....ya


if you fix these problems ig will seem about even with the other races besides SM/csm which both need tier 1 buffs/tier 2 nerfs anyways.

ig v ork if you buff ig gens will mean the ig will always tech faster and then base rape banners to make sure the ork doesnt tech/counter vehicles. if you speed up the acquisition of plasma priests by ANY amount you are risking a total tier 2 domination of ig on any race.

[Ajhayter]

The main problem with the IG is not infantry. Kitted Guardsmen can handle infantry.

It's the anti-vehicle.

The lascannon heavy weapons team for example has 50% accuracy! Just from common sence this makes no sence...

A laser based weapon, mounted on a stationary turret in an entrenched position misses half the time? How does that make sence?

An entrenched turret mounted weapon has less accuracy than a shoulder mounted fire and forget missle weapon (SM Missle launcher, 85% accuracy)...

That seriously make no sence.

MAIN POINT OF STATS BELOW:
Missle marines can hide within their units and cannot be singled out for focus fire.

A single sentinel is slightly cheaper [than the AV upgrade], and has a much faster build time than a Tac Marine missle squad, but takes longer to down a target, and can be singled out for focus fire.

A Heavy Weapons team costs more than [the upgrade for] a Tac Marine Missle Squad, and takes a similar amount of time to equip and deploy. However it too takes significantly longer to down a target, and can be singled out for focus fire.


STATS
A volley of 5 missles does in excess of 250dps against vehicle_med at 85% accuracy with a 5 second reload, with a range of 45. 5 missles costs 300 req and 75 power, with 75 seconds required to build all 5 missles.. Stone required from armoury for all 5 missles.

A sentinel shot does 136dps against vehcile_med at 80% accuracy with a 3 second reload, with a range of 35. 1 sentinel costs 150req 150power and 20 seconds to build (not including stone time). Stone required from Mechanised Command to build. A sentinel takes 6 seconds (2 vollys) to equal the damage output of the Space Marine Missles (provided shots do not miss).

A Heavy Weapons Team with a Lascannon does 111dps against cehicle_med at 50% accuracy with a 0.5 second reload. 1 Heavy Weapons team with a lascannon costs 250req 50power with 50req and 50power for lascannon upgrade. It takes 45 seconds to build, 3 seconds to entrench, and 25 seconds to research lascannon (must be entrenched). Total 73 seconds minimum.
The lascannon requires 3 seconds to equal the damage output of the Space Marine Missles, however with a 50% accuracy, this is likely to take at least 6 seconds.


And if you are wondering where I got these stats from:
http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/Space_Marine_Squad#Missile_Launcher
http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/Sentinel#Multilaser
http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/Heavy_Weapons_Team#Lascannon

[Vytae]

Why shouldnt nades be spammable? Hbolters are.
And bolters are more versatile,and on a far tougher unit.

The main thing IG needs is bug fixes,quicker build time for HWT and a slight cost decrease to some units. We dont need combat changes.

IG in its individual tiers is always fairly strong,its the combination of getting to the tiers,and upgrading everything while ever other race has strong choices out of the box that hurts IG.

[The_Guardman]

The lascannon requires 3 seconds to equal the damage output of the Space Marine Missles, however with a 50% accuracy, this is likely to take at least 6 seconds.

DpS already take into account the to hit chance.


Reguarding the AV: I still do not understand why every one should be able to deal efficently vs. Killer Kans and IG not.

Anyway, Killer Kans aside, the main issue of the HWT is not in the noimpressive damage, but in its working. With the actual setup, it should be doing 2x the AV damage to be a proper investment, and be capped at 3. Otherwise, it should be cheaper, or attachable, and/or faster to produce/upgrade. And it should rotate faster.

[the_almighty_moo]

i think IG should start off with 2 more inf cap at the start of the game. either that or make it that the command squad doesnt take up cap

i allways though that the lascannon team doesnt do as much dammage as it should be able to, considering how much it costs to make a hwt + the cost of the upgrade, so i think an increase of accuracy to the hwt to about 70% would help.

i might have to mod this to check it out

[SubakuGaara]

Restore bassy of old but cap at 2

Have fanaticism start at 1/2 or 3/4 charge

Nerf HH damage a smidge

Boost HH morale damage a smidge

Nerf HQ priest melee commander damage (I also think eldar harle's need a major major major commander damage nerf too)

Buff HWT hp by 100-150 HP and give decent regen when undeployed

NERF KKS. Don' t know how but nerf em cause something is seriously wrong with KKS.

[magicalcarpet]

well, i guess i agree with those changes except bassy should keep current speed.

i wouldn't touch karks either, along with ogyrns they're the only elite infantry IG get. they're definitely very good but require the most time to get to strength out of all the elites.

oh yeah and i think broadside commander damage needs to be toned down, they one-hit members of the CS..

[The_Guardman]

Ouch! I never noticed the DpSs of the broads! It is huge! 56 DpS to Commander, and 168 vs. inf_heavy_med? This is a SM every 3 seconds... For 240/120, 2250 HPs, immunity to morale... And great AV damage from start. An IG Every second or so (225 DpS!)
Ever 84 DpS vs. Vehicle_High. (And Tau get EMP too. Why psyker + lascannon HWT is OP vs. orks and TAUs are not?).

Well, hopefully tau players will continue to notice only the slowliness.. :roll:

[Maktaka]

An IG Every second or so

The Rail Gun only fires every 4 seconds, so it can't kill targets faster than that.

[magicalcarpet]

Yeah, you're in luck if it foccusses on your GM :P

Though I'm pretty sure it does splash, I'm not sure how much..

[Slow_Runner]

Thread on heavy weapon teams from just two weeks ago (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=144885). Please avoid discussing the same things in several threads, redundancy never helped anyone.

[Spekkio]

Ouch! I never noticed the DpSs of the broads! It is huge! 56 DpS to Commander, and 168 vs. inf_heavy_med? This is a SM every 3 seconds... For 240/120, 2250 HPs, immunity to morale... And great AV damage from start. An IG Every second or so (225 DpS!)
Ever 84 DpS vs. Vehicle_High. (And Tau get EMP too. Why psyker + lascannon HWT is OP vs. orks and TAUs are not?).

Well, hopefully tau players will continue to notice only the slowliness.. :roll: This is where DPS charts start to get iffy. The damage per shot is not the DPS listed. The ROF of the railgun is once every 4 seconds. What happens if you target infantry squads is you shoot shots that are overkill, and then you don't fire again for another 4 seconds.

[RoninOni]

Broadsides are off topic but if they had a small AOE id use em more. As is they are purely AV, that can get distracted by inf, and SS can pull AV duty more effectivly for pop (albeit not for cost)

ON TOPIC:
Bassies need a major buff of some sort. I have a few ideas. The major issues are they fire to slow, at to low of damage, at to low of accuracy, at way to much cost and pop. Adjustments to any or all of these will fix them (obviously the more issues you address the less you ned to do to each, the fewer issues you address the more it needs to be adjusted) Im really open to anything, though I would prefer either
reduce pop to 2. this would allow an army to field 3 without breaking their army. or make 2 as effective as 3 now (in RoF and total damage.) and cap at 2. Additionally simply reducing their RoF and leaving everything else alone would make me happy.

HWTS:
To expensive, to slow, to easy to counter.
a) Reduce cost/build time.
b) Another Idea. Have unentrenched mode have say, half HP and regen rate of 1. then when entrenched it doubles current HP, giving good regen while unentrenched. (disclaimer, my numbers do not indicate what would balance but are used for demonstration)

Squad tax on GM is to high
Officers are too effective. Should be cheaper, less effective, and regular GM should be buffed slightly to compensate. as is its standard.
Somones idea of nerfed Ogryns in t2 was good as well in conjunction with nerfing officers (though w/ officer nerf needs cost reduction)

HH nerf damage, boost morale damage to at least compensate for damage loss

Psycker should confer some benefit to attached squad, or be non-attachable and HP+Armor buffed.

CS Commie should confer some benefit to the squad. stacked morale with Priest at the very least

T1-T2 is too CS dependent. costs should be adjusted to make armory build viable to get through T1 (though not OP).

[SubakuGaara]

which is why broadsides should only be targetting high hp targets and commanders. HWTs however can target anything since they have rapid fire and pretty much never overkill.

anyway back to IG changes I listed them except one. Priest needs an attachment bonus. suggestion was 25-30 percent ranged damage reduction to attached squads for HQ priest . CS priest gets nothing.

[RoninOni]

I think you mean psycker

As per HWT (upgraded) vs Broadside

For less cost (though 1 more pop) broadside gets double HP, better armor, build faster, morale immune, better weapon on the move and better damage at cost of range + sight + RoF. Sight is negligable as any good Tau has sight from other units so really only range and RoF and for purposes of AV (which is the comparrison here as Broadside is not AI) RoF is fairly negigable when you consider how much more damage the Broadside does (and how much easier it can live that long to do it)

AND despite how much better the broadside is than the HWT, the broadside still doesnt get used much.... now tell me why I should be buying HWT's when Broadsides aren't even used that much?

HWT's need fixing. period

BTW, the DPS of the XV88 is almost double of the DPS of the LC HWT for light and med veh's and 1.5 times as much for heavy

There is a simple way to tell if a unit needs fixing

If EVERYONE who plays that faction uses it every time for almost every build, its prolly OP for cost. (GM is an exception for obvious reasons... no other choice :P)

If NOONE who plays that faction ever builds it, than it is too expensive for what it does.

Look at the top players, see what they use and don't use, and think about why.... its easy really.

As far as IG is concerned top players don't use HWT's or Bassies, and for good reason.

[Spekkio]

AND despite how much better the broadside is than the HWT, the broadside still doesnt get used much.... now tell me why I should be buying HWT's when Broadsides aren't even used that much? Because you pretty much discarded all the significant disadvantages as being negligible.

Broadside vs. HW team
Costs 240/120 vs. 250/50 for HW team, 325/80 for Autocannon
3 pop cap vs. 2 pop cap
40 range vs. 45/55 range
20 sight radius vs. 40 sight radius
Anti-vehicle only vs. Anti-all
Slow to deploy vs. moves at normal infantry speed
High hp and armor vs. low HP and armor
High damage per shot vs. low damage per shot
Low rate of fire vs. high rate of fire

People get HW teams because it's cheaper for what it does -- providing a fallback and defensive point for IG against any enemy type. Broadsides fill a redundant role that SS already perform, and much better because of their mobility. FWIW, I almost never see HW teams with lascannons. They almost always either have the HB and autocannon. Why? Because an immobile unit doesn't serve as good AV. Tau really doesn't need broadsides unless they see relic units on the field.

[4Servant]

basy's need a buff, tower need longer build time outside control zones, gens to 150, let commies detect and buff HWT with 50-100 hp. Further more nerf the living crap out of ig t3 basicly every unit.

[skid']

Further more nerf the living crap out of ig t3 basicly every unit.So... what happens to Chao's T3 if IG's, which requires more time and money to be better, is nerfed?

Excuse me. For IG's tier 3 to roxxor you need a tactica, upgrades, 2 priests, full squad (KK and Or).

Chaos T3 you need... nothing. They come out imba with nothing needed to be upgraded or built. Yet IG need a T3 nerf? K.

Same thing with Ork T3, you gonna nerf them too? Doks with Gitz anyone? Same shit, different race. You'd have to nerf Chaos and Ork T3 before I would put up with MORE IG NERFS.

I just don't know what your problem with IG is, Servant. You always say they're imba, broken. You yourself said there has never been a pro top IG player playing them to the fullest, so how could you know what imba and what's not? You say IG give your Tau/SM/CSM a tough time, but who could possibly challenge you with those races? In order for IG to give anyone a tough time the other IG player has to be really, really good. Who is much much better than you? No one I suppose since you're one if not the best player, no one could possibly beat you with IG, imo, since there isn't a player close to your skill level who uses IG.

I just dont know why you hate them so much.

[The_Guardman]

Anti-vehicle only vs. Anti-all

The broadside actually have a decent AI firepower in form of his duble missile pods when unentrenched. They do 17-13 DpS each with AoE 5, and cause disruption, with a decent range of 30. Practically, a build-in short medium grenade launcher at medium firepower. Not exptional, but Tau do not lack decent long-range AI firepower to start (Fire warriors?).

Plus, BS is start of T2, HWT AC is start of T3.

4Servant, Commy detection would make the psyker less and less useful. Are you serious? (And yes, I am serious asking this. I noticed that sometime you have a sarcastic way to express your thoughts).

[magicalcarpet]

Earlier on I was thinking about having Commies detect (specifically to help vs. Eldar). If they DID detect, then you could do Commie builds in the CS vs. Tau and Eldar.. and GM w/Commie could conceivably kill some SS.

Also, I want to see the bug with the Commie morale being fixed. Giving the CS a morale buff wouldn't be too outrageous I don't think.

Unfortunately, the Commie would become a necessary dead weight in the CS later on specifically for detection. The Psyker would still be useful because of CoTMS.

Perhaps both Commie and Psyker should detect, it will make little difference other than the fact that a late game Commie in the CS wouldn't be necessary.

[wayfarer]

I don't know why Ig T3 does need time you just research the stones and produce the squads finished.

The Heavy weapon upgrades for Karskin aren't worth it. The speed upgrade doesn't work with a priest and you will attach a priest left over from T2 while fanatism makes the health upgrade worthless.

Only the Ogryn Bayonets are worth it and they can do the job without it.

Best would be if fanatism and every other ability that makes units invincible would be removed or changed.

[4Servant]

ig detection units should be commie/assasin

[SubakuGaara]

Commie as detector is fine option. Kinda crowds out the psykerbut whatever. Psker should just be a little 3 man squad of their own running around and casting bonus spells or whatever it is they were supposed to do.

[Vytae]

Servant changes his mind fairly regularly on IG. I remeber during a balance thread awhile back he said IG were higher on the food chain then Eldar/Sm as far as 1v1 competivness goes. Im sure Dux will be along soon to tell us were all noobs and that IG is fine.

IG t3 DOES not need a nerf. Make no mistake,their the most cost effective units out there used properly,but almost every single other races t3 equivalent will easily beat them in stand up fight or in vaccum. Nerfing IG tier 3 would kill the race,as the only thing else they have to look forward too thats cool is the baneblade.

Commie as detector would pretty much guarantee the psyker only gets built in tier 4 for curse on enemy Baneblades,Landraiders and t4 heavy tanks. Probably not even then as the advantage of having another beefy unit in the CS early would be almost imba (the commie has better building dps then the priest i eblieve,and people already complain about that).

[wayfarer]

With a priest attached and in a Vacuum?
This is a thing I want to see.
A Psyker is always worth it's cost in the CS. Not for detection but for Cotms it is always helpfull if it stops a Dreadnought going on a rampage though your Guardsman.

2 Pysyker using Lightning Arc on a enemy squad isn't that bad either. It means your CS mustn't into melee to do damage.

[magicalcarpet]

That's ok, it means it won't be doing damage anyway, as it's broken.

But yeah, Psyker is more useful than Commie in T2.. and they should both detect.

[The_Guardman]

Substituting the mind blow with a 20-25% smokescreen (work for enemy too, cumulable up to 2 cover bonus) would make the psyker more useful in T1, still it deserve a price reduction and/or stone removal.

[Ajhayter]

Maybe the psyker could get a Psykik Ward that reduces ranged damage by 25%... Passive ability on an attached squad.

[SubakuGaara]

IG t3 DOES not need a nerf. Make no mistake,their the most cost effective units out there used properly,but almost every single other races t3 equivalent will easily beat them in stand up fight or in vaccum. Nerfing IG tier 3 would kill the race,as the only thing else they have to look forward too thats cool is the baneblade.
No dude. Its just the opposite. IG t3 beats all the other t3 in a vacuum and by far. For example, possessed csms do 50 damage in melee with heavy high like ogrns and have 800 hp and 10 man squad (so 8000 HP). Ogryns with priest (and this is ignoring the priests own damage) and bonehead (essentially a slightly stronger ogryn) do 101 damage (bonehead does 125) and with all the bonuses each member has about 965 HP each.

So lets see here.
Possessed: 8000 HP at 50 dps a pop (total dps is 500 dps)
Ogryns: approximately 7000 HP at a little over 100 dps a pop (total dps is 700+ since we are not fully counting the boneheads and totally ignoring the priest).

It won't even be close. If ogryns had half the HP, then the fight would be even, but they don't; they have approximately the same amount. In fact I think the labs showed ogryns losing like 1 member in the whole skirmish or something like that. And that was without fananticism buying them 10 free secs.

IG kks are the same way despite how they look. IG t3 elites need a nerf.

[Hawillis]

IMO its not te T3, its the priest. He is already IMBA. Add in 10 secods immunity = wtf! Everyone else gets a dont die. eg. WOTE. Preist should be like this. Not immune (also moral dont forget!).

Then it ould be alright - less gryns in a squad and they are slow/no flamer

[Chris]

Pretty much. Take away the priest and Ogryns are totally useless except for base bashing since they lose a ton of HP and speed. Kasrkin fair a bit better without a priest cuz they can get a speed upgrade plus they have their uber frag grenade and 40 range hellguns but at the end of the day without the damage/hp bonus they can't stand up like the other tier 3 units.

I would have no objection to nerfing some of the priest bonus' but it MUST be absolutely clear how crucial the priest is to the tier 3 elites. IG elites get absolutely pounded without priests. I've lost countless games (and posted plenty of whine replays :p) showing losses because requiring squad leaders + priests means you lose out in a tier 3/tier 4 meatgrinder.

[Inst]

So? Possessed lose to Kroot Hounds also.

[mdigibou]

so? there are 2x kroot hounds + shaper + feral leap.
and they dont get tier 3 ranged backup either.
oh and dont forget hounds dont have an imba flamer, much less even a ranged attack.

whoah chris is back =P.

[Spekkio]

IG t3 DOES not need a nerf. Make no mistake,their the most cost effective units out there used properly,but almost every single other races t3 equivalent will easily beat them in stand up fight or in vaccum. Nerfing IG tier 3 would kill the race,as the only thing else they have to look forward too thats cool is the baneblade. Do a search, Dux labbed this. The only time that IG t3 elites w/ attached priests lose is to SM t3 units with micro and with all SM heroes involved, and Ogryns vs. Pariahs is just one long stalemate. They absolutely rape everything else. Before some of you object to the use of IG mini-heroes in these "straight up fights," realize that IG is designed so that squads must have mini-heroes attached to perform properly.

Please stop bringing up Chaos as a reason not to nerf IG t3. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Melonplant]

Please stop bringing up Chaos as a reason not to nerf IG t3. Two wrongs don't make a right.

*slams gavel*

Both races are sentenced to an ETERNITY OF TORMENT.

I've always viewed T3 as making up for their mediocreness. I'd like to see a buff to T4 and a nerf to t3.

[Vytae]

You guys need to let go of that " they own my face so they must be imba " thing.

Take a squad of assault termies,and a squad of termies,facing ogryn with priest,and karskin with priest.

Sure intially the termies will take heavy casualties due to nades and fanatcism,but in the end the termies win.

IG t3 is good because they arent straight out tough units,their versatile and reward players who micro (ie,karskin are so deadly because their fast and have long range,think of them as t3 rangers without the cheese).

And sure,fanaticism rocks,but what happens to those units without it? THEY GET ROCKED SO HARD ITS LIKE 1999 throw posse or assault or khound etc at ogryn without fanaticism lab what happens if you don't believe me. The easiest way to beat it is to simply move away for 5-8 seconds. Retreating,its called. IG do that alot. Unless your cornered in your base (in which case your an inferior player anyhow). T

he priest is not imba sure,he gives alot of benefits for one unit,but you DO realize it makes your base cost for a gm squad (without any hweps at all) 250req,40 power. (240,forget if its base or cs priest thats 90) 300(290?) req and 140 power for karskin. Capped at 3 too.

For that matter,there's nothing wrong with Chaos t3 either,just simply how fast they can get there on so little.

And buffing IG t4,IG only has 2 tier 4 units,Baneblade and Leman. Buffing eithers combat stats would be imba. While nerfing IG t3 would ensure IG never makes it to t4 anyhow.

[wayfarer]

Vytae I can't agree here but well you won't with me.

An Oqryn squad does 101.2 dps to heavy high with powered bayonets and priest, that is almost double the damage most other T3 units do this without reload time. With a commie the morale is uninteresting and their health points are really high.
Even without fanatism I want to see how they loose.

Karskin with priest have similar damage values to all the other elites. Add execute to it and they double it. The plasma guns doubles this values again but only against Infantry. Still I wouldn't use them because the Hell gun rapes everything that looks slightly like building low and I love their range.
Fun fact their guns do the same damage to building low as Assault Termies, with execute and priest they can even kill buildings faster than the guys with the big hammer (they would loose against Building high but only marginal).
Don't mention their grenade who isn't bad either.

I can understand that some people complain that our T3 is OP on the other side our T1 and T2 isn't really hot either. Improve T1 and T2 and nerf T3.

[skid']

IG T1 isn't hot against 3 races, against all other races it's fine. Nerf the T1 of the three races: Cron, Eldar, Tau. Some nerfs slight, others, quite large.

Accourding to some, IG T3 is OP. I agree it's OP when everything is combined. The upgrades and the Priest.

But no way would I put up with Servant's "Nerf their T3 into the ground" and get a crappy buff to Basi's and +100 Hps for HW teams in return, no way in hell.

IG T3 is all the race has got to compete. Nerf their T3, but buff their T1 and T2 in return... or Nerf their T3... and nerf Chao's, Ork T3 - and nerf Tau, Eldar, Cron T1.

[RoninOni]

I don't think IG T3 is all that OP really... Fanatacism is pretty brutal, but it only lasts for a few seconds. Its like when someone pops smoke or throws up shields, you just run away for a few seconds while the ability fades, then come back and kill them during the lengthy cooldown timer. If you stand there shooting at a unit that is under a temporary buff massivly reducing damage then um..... STOP!

As far as speed and damage upgrades they would be next to worthless w/out them.

Also, before you go nerfing the crap outta priests think about IG T2... IG T2 is dependant on GMs w/ attached priests. if all of a sudden their strength got cut in half IG would have no T2 inf to shake a stick with.

If you want to nerf orgynns and Karks, then nerf them, don't nerf priests

[4Servant]

The fastes units in the game with the most damage and ability's + best support hero aka cotm/stafrun/fantacism. It cost alot yes but then again ig eco is always good due uber fast lightning tech/harrasing/camping so they can spend most money in their eco.
Also I forgot the assasin wich if used properly can nearly take on the entire tau t3 on his own and also leaves csm t3 with nothing cause he kills the sorc and quess what a lone gm sqaud + priest can tie the oblie for a extra overkill cause KK > oblie already and ogryn > psm already and CS > vehicles and assasin > heroes and HH > csm glass cannons + HWT fall back positions, yeah ig t3 is balanced.
Also now t4 roles out wich is even stronger than their t3 by the stupid OP CS aka 1 priest + 3 psykers and cotm love wich makes others t4 tanks useless.

[phoenixzs]

The fastes units in the game with the most damage and ability's + best support hero aka cotm/stafrun/fantacism. It cost alot yes but then again ig eco is always good due uber fast lightning tech/harrasing/camping so they can spend most money in their eco.
Also I forgot the assasin wich if used properly can nearly take on the entire tau t3 on his own and also leaves csm t3 with nothing cause he kills the sorc and quess what a lone gm sqaud + priest can tie the oblie for a extra overkill cause KK > oblie already and ogryn > psm already and CS > vehicles and assasin > heroes and HH > csm glass cannons + HWT fall back positions, yeah ig t3 is balanced.
Also now t4 roles out wich is even stronger than their t3 by the stupid OP CS aka 1 priest + 3 psykers and cotm love wich makes others t4 tanks useless.
Here is some super theorycraft.Hmm he convinced me I think IG should be nerfed Bad me :donny: :P

[RoninOni]

Like I said, Ogrynns and karskin could take a small nerf (small mind you because its multiplied by priests, so if you removed 4 dps you actually removed 7)

I also don't think Assassins are way to OP. they go down faster than any other infiltrating unit. They are pretty powerful, but really they are the second commander unit, and everyones second commander unit is powerful. (you can't say chap's arent powerful when combined with the right unit. Thats just the first example to pop into my head... Sorcs is another one, etc etc)

As for priest + 3x psycker CS? that IS IG's AV. Sents are fragile as piss and HWT's are immobile, so wtf else are we supposed to use to fight tanks in ANY tier? and CotMS just GOT nerfed. EMP grenades are better than CotMS now. ALOT better.

IG tier 3 IS powerful. I am not going to deny that. however, getting there in good standing is the big trick most of the time. In addition I think you are the only person I have yet seen on these forums saying IG needs to be nailed with the nerf bat (AGAIN!)

[Lordoftheflies]

If you nerf the priest without massively buffing pretty much everything in Tier 2 then IG will basically become beyond unplayable and basically a "DEFEAT" button

[crappy]

why dont make the Cotms reduce in a half effectiveness of the vehicle armor in addition to slow it? would Make that people happy? or Would that make an imbalance? :dance:

[Spekkio]

Here is some super theorycraft.Hmm he convinced me I think IG should be nerfed Bad me :donny: :P
Too bad there are plenty of expert replays on DoWSanc to support his opinion.

[Vytae]

The fastes units in the game with the most damage and ability's + best support hero aka cotm/stafrun/fantacism. It cost alot yes but then again ig eco is always good due uber fast lightning tech/harrasing/camping so they can spend most money in their eco.
Also I forgot the assasin wich if used properly can nearly take on the entire tau t3 on his own and also leaves csm t3 with nothing cause he kills the sorc and quess what a lone gm sqaud + priest can tie the oblie for a extra overkill cause KK > oblie already and ogryn > psm already and CS > vehicles and assasin > heroes and HH > csm glass cannons + HWT fall back positions, yeah ig t3 is balanced.
Also now t4 roles out wich is even stronger than their t3 by the stupid OP CS aka 1 priest + 3 psykers and cotm love wich makes others t4 tanks useless.

Then why don't you play them competively? In fact,there's not a single dedicated IG player in DC-Ladder top 20 atm. It dosent matter if we get a tier 4 upgrade where Gm shoot death rays out of their eyes if they never reach there.

Sure a full fledged,fully upgraded and fully kitted IG tier 3 is a fearsome thing,and IS quite possibly the most powerful t3 there is. And that dosent mean its easy to get there. If were paying the cost in time ( especially time) eco,weaker single units and weaker early tiers, why shouldnt our t3 be the payback tier? Not to mention its not nearly invulnerable as you make it sound.

Just because our t3 is powerful dosent mean the race is balanced overall. One of the reasons Balance is in such a sorry state in this game is because balance testers looked at units and situations individualy at certain times without looking at the greater whole.

PS: Cotms is fine

PPS: When did it suddenly become trendy to nerf IG? All of a sudden,CS needs a nerf,IG t3 needs a nerf,HH need a nerf. It makes me wonder if any of these people have actually played IG,or just had their heads beaten in by one.

PPS:
Too bad there are plenty of expert replays on DoWSanc to support his opinion. So list a few. And i don't want replays where IG dominates the whole game from t1 (that just means hes the better player) i want replays where its 50/50 or the IG is on the ropes but manages to get t3 and then suddenly rapes his opponent clear cut like. Or Equivalent t3 armies going at it and the IG winning by a clear margin.

[Dux]

Im sure Dux will be along soon to tell us were all noobs and that IG is fine.
Hey, you're all noobs, and IG is fine.

But seriously, here are the only things I would change about IG:
1. Reduce Basilisk cost by 50 power, return RoF and speed to 1.0 levels, keep 1.2 DPS by nerfing damage.
2. Add infiltrate cost to Assassin instead of making it a separate research.
3. Increase turret build time and decrease turret HP slightly.
4. Nerf the crap out of IG Tier 3: Increase Kasrkin grenade cooldown by 1:30 (300% increase) and lower Ogryn DPS to the point where they're doing around 60-70 DPS to hvy_high with a Priest. Right now nearly all IG players just rush to Tier 3, which is both lame and boring.

Hopefully that would make the Basilisk useful again and encourage players to realize how awesome the GM mass is when used properly instead of rushing to Tier 3 like noobs.

[Spekkio]

Then why don't you play them competively? In fact,there's not a single dedicated IG player in DC-Ladder top 20 atm. It dosent matter if we get a tier 4 upgrade where Gm shoot death rays out of their eyes if they never reach there. Almost every competitive player has quite DoW: DC. Many have come back to play DCPro, but the top ranks of DoW: DC are filled with mediocre players.


So list a few. And i don't want replays where IG dominates the whole game from t1 (that just means hes the better player) i want replays where its 50/50 or the IG is on the ropes but manages to get t3 and then suddenly rapes his opponent clear cut like. Or Equivalent t3 armies going at it and the IG winning by a clear margin.
Vytae is offline Report Bad Post Go to dowsanctuary.com, register, and search replays for "servant," "tekkpriest," and "serberus." The latter two aren't servant aliases, but he definitely shows the power of IG lame quick-tech. I'm not going to do it for you; if you choose to remain ignorant then that's your problem.

[mdigibou]

hell, priest plasma does over 200dps to infantry targets and at least 50 to veh_med and under. and that's just tier 2. there's no way GM mass is underpowered =P

[RoninOni]

1. Reduce Basilisk cost by 50 power, return RoF and speed to 1.0 levels, keep 1.2 DPS by nerfing damage.

I have been begging for this since 1.2. Damage nerf was fine, their RoF now is ridiculous


2. Add infiltrate cost to Assassin instead of making it a separate research.

would save a few seconds


3. Increase turret build time and decrease turret HP slightly.

Turret rush is a lil stupid. Though I am glad for turrets outside control area (CPs)


4. Nerf the crap out of IG Tier 3: Increase Kasrkin grenade cooldown by 1:30 (300% increase) and lower Ogryn DPS to the point where they're doing around 60-70 DPS to hvy_high with a Priest.

I think 90 sec cooldown on grenades would be enough. Agree with Ogryn nerf.


Right now nearly all IG players just rush to Tier 3, which is both lame and boring.
All rushes are lame ;)


Also, as i said, its not priests that need the nerf, so people please stop saying they do. you have any idea how weak IG T2 would be if they got wailed on with the nerf bat? Its all about priest led GM squads under effect of Execute. It takes all that just to compete with the likes of GK's and zerks

[4Servant]

Then why don't you play them competively? In fact,there's not a single dedicated IG player in DC-Ladder top 20 atm. It dosent matter if we get a tier 4 upgrade where Gm shoot death rays out of their eyes if they never reach there.
I posted replays here awhile ago playing ig in top lvl and in leauges/esl but its never good enuff for the players here so I stoped caring tbh.

[skid']

Where can we find these replays, in battle archives? And if it isn't against Top Eldar/Cron/Tau I won't care, tbh. I don't want to see you turret camping to tier 3 agaisnt SM/CSM/Ork/IG. Because people don't complain about those MU's. Let's see you fight Fooz with IG on emerald river and pwn him with your leet IG skills, then post the games, then we'll shut up about IG.

[Melonplant]

Servant is right. IG are pretty decent as is. A few tweaks will do it. Their T3 is ridiculous, with plenty of elites to pull out the ass. The sniper, though expensive, will easily pay himself off in a few minutes. Ogryns are sex machines, easily getting laid 2 times for their cost. Kassys are, imo, better than ogryns, as they won't burn a hole in your pocket by dying. Their AI role is incredibly powerful.

[Warp Holder]

But where are the AV units before T2?
Sentinels? Lascannon HWTs?
It is not enough.

[Dumas1]

Um...Sentinels and Lascannon HWTs are T2. There is absolutely no need for anti-vehicle units before T2 because all vehicles are T2. And if you're getting hit by vehicles while you're in T1, you have some much more serious issues to look at.

[Spekkio]

Where can we find these replays, in battle archives? And if it isn't against Top Eldar/Cron/Tau I won't care, tbh. I don't want to see you turret camping to tier 3 agaisnt SM/CSM/Ork/IG. Because people don't complain about those MU's. Let's see you fight Fooz with IG on emerald river and pwn him with your leet IG skills, then post the games, then we'll shut up about IG. Right. And Tau tier 1 is underpowered because we can't beat Necrons and Orks.

[skid']

If you have trouble beating Ork, with Tau, you need some work. Tau have one bad MU, Cron. That's it. IG have 3 bad MU's. 3. Not to mention Tau's tier 1 is vastly superior to IG's... so don't even go there.

IG's tier 3 is OP. But their T1-T2-AV is a joke.

I don't want to see IG vs SM, and use that as an example that they're OP. I don't are about SM. Show me wins, on different maps, against the three bad MU's. So we can see it can be done. Play someone of equal skill. Beat them, on a few maps, using IG, against one of the 3 bad MU's.

Then we'll have no right to complain, and shut up.

[Dux]

IG AV is some of the best in the game. Sentinels are awesome.

And really, IG's only really bad MU is Eldar. Cron is just OP in general because of their econ -- the matchup isn't particularly poor for IG -- and Tau have the upper hand in Tier 1 with Vespids + TC combo, but they will lose if the game goes beyond that and the IG player is good. Chims > Tau in early Tier 2 and it's all downhill from there.

[Spekkio]

If you have trouble beating Ork, with Tau, you need some work. Tau have one bad MU, Cron. That's it. IG have 3 bad MU's. 3. Not to mention Tau's tier 1 is vastly superior to IG's... so don't even go there. Enlighten me, please. I've actually been checking here and DOWSanc regularly for a while for good Tau vs. Ork replays that show how "easy" it is for Tau to beat Ork. Guess what? There aren't any. If this is such an easy matchup, then most Tau players are keeping it a secret because I honestly have no clue what Tau is supposed to do. Ork buildings rip apart vespids easily, and Tau don't have any tank units so you can't fire from afar till t2...IF you get to t2. If you go kroot they get danced back to LP2/Banner, if you go FWs they get overwhelmed by sluggas + shootas. Snares don't work particularly well because the BM detects and he's always around.

IG vs. Tau is actually a very even matchup, with the early game favoring Tau and the late game favoring IG. It's a classic offensive vs. defensive style matchup. As Tau you have to gain the upper hand early and then press that advantage the entire game. If you let up, IG will catch up and omgwtfown you.

Sents are very good AV, unless you're referring specifically to infantry AV. But not everyone gets an ownage AV vehicle that can serve as a decapper as well, and then your CS runs around freezing vehicles every so often.

But you've missed my point entirely: Every race in the game has at least 2 bad MUs, except for Crons. That doesn't prove anything as far as IG being OP/UP.

[Dumas1]

The most irritating problem with the Sentinel is its tendency to fire its first shot while moving, coupled with a pretty long reload. Still, two or three of them will do fairly well against most vehicles in Tier 2. Walkers and later vehicles just have too many hit points to take down quickly without some help.

[skid']

Alright, I've watched Servant's IG replays.

One replay, on Outer reaches, vs Fo0z, was interesting. I've always thought this to be a so-so map for IG, but Servant did beat Fooz with Gm and the CS. Although, Fooz didn't make rangers, just two DR squads, and that's it. This must have been a very early IG game for Fooz because after his replays, vs Das, I though it impossible to win that MU. Fooz now goes 2 DRs and a Ranger squad which should shut IG down. But, still, Serv won, but could he take Fooz's current build, on emerald river or titans fall? I'm still thinking this to be 100% Eldar. I've seen Serv's Eldar play Serberus's IG, total domination. With platforms and wraithtomb the Eldar should dominate in tier 1 and clean house in tier 3 as well. Now I really don't know how you could fix this MU tbh. There's so much Eldar has over IG: the wraithtomb, platforms, WS's, DR's, rangers... How serv could say Eldar is at the bottom of the food chain is beyond me. I still think Eldar needs some looking into, and a lot of people think the same way. Still, in order for all of Eldar's imba to shine through, you have to be good. I sure as hell can't use Eldar so it's not easy imba. You've got to be gifted to really kick ass with Eldar, so that's good.

Some other replays were against cron. One, on outer reaches, serv would have lost, but the cron forgot about the countdown timer, pretty lame win imo. Second cron game was against an average Cron, which took Serv (one of the best players in this game) 40 minutes to beat. So an average player can take a multi-gold, pro undefeated player, as long as he uses Cron? Ok, so that's one MU that IG really blows at, and I mean the whole game, not just tier 1. IG vs Cron is really onesided if an average joe blow can delay servant 40 minutes.

As far as Tau, I didn't find any Serv vs Tau replays. But I'll say that Tau is alright after watching some more stuff.


But you've missed my point entirely: Every race in the game has at least 2 bad MUs, except for Crons. That doesn't prove anything as far as IG being OP/UP.Orks have no bad MU's, none at all. Cron is still up in the air. Santi says Orks and Chaos can easily beat cron so I don't know.

As for Tau vs Ork, you need to dig a little deeper. I just recently saw a replay with Santi in it (another great player) against some unknown Tau, and his Orks really had to struggle to win against that Tau. This is the best Ork, btw. Santi is the best Ork player and he struggled vs some unknown Tau player. I'm sure you can find something.

[Spekkio]

Santi is the best Ork player and he struggled vs some unknown Tau player. A loss is still a loss. For all I know, Santi could be having a bad day, and the "unknown" Tau player is probably a smurf.

[4Servant]

As far as Tau, I didn't find any Serv vs Tau replays. But I'll say that Tau is alright after watching some more stuff.
I played a few in esl in 1.11 and posted here. I only know 1 good tau player atm wich I beat with my ig but if you can get me 1 ill play him. Im quite happy with my anti tau build orders only map I strugle is OR + emerald river due vespid/tc jump crap and its nearly impossible being at the perfect spot all the time wich is what my play style is, thus losing a lp or forced to retreat a gm thus aint capping anything. Also the points in this map are to spreaded so you have to use the cs as a defenses for your capping gaurds wich on others maps you dont need to cause you can run to lp or tower and press back while your CS goes for SS hutting.

[BudgetMessiah]

I posted replays here awhile ago playing ig in top lvl and in leauges/esl but its never good enuff for the players here so I stoped caring tbh.
There's the rub. I love how people say "post a replay of this to prove your point", and when you do, they just nitpick the replay and backpedal on shutting up if you proved your point. Moving goalposts. Some people just can't admit that they're wrong. That's why I don't go out of my way to give reps anymore. It's a waste of my time.

People call it "Theorycraft" when they should be saying "I lost the argument, so I'm just going to snark off and pretend that I still have a point". If you can't discuss game mechanics rationally and abstractly, then get the hell off the discussion boards.

[RoninOni]

Another thing to keep in mind as far as balance is concerned is difficulty of use.
Its like Eldar. They can be ridiculously powerful.... in the hands of they right player of course. IG are the same way I believe. If you were to reduce their MAXIMUM potential down then their average would be much lower than your avg SM/Chaos player. Generally it already is I believe, however I do see the mechanics allowing for a little imbalance which is why I suggested what I did above, in agreement with whats needed w/out going overboard.

Leave priests alone, T2 needs them.
Nerf ogrynns and KK's keeping in mind the after affect w/ attached priests (mostly just nerf damage)
Increase Bassie RoF while maintaining current DPS. Damage is fine, but it doesn't have enough disruption to really be worthwhile until you have massive float for constant earthshakers.
HH maybe small damage nerf with morale damage boost to compensate (however this is one of IG's primary early AI's and is fairly easily countered with AV as well so not to much)
HWT build time decrease, *slight* cost decrease

As I said in another thread, its easy to see whats OP and UP... if EVERYONE ALWAYS uses it, it must be OP (unless they have no other choice) if noone uses it, it must be UP. hardly anyone uses HWT's (mostly because of build time, and cost is a little high, but not by too much. and don't compare to Broadside cost cause hardly anyone uses them either) or Bassies (until T4 when they become powerful with a massive econ. Might even increase cooldown on earthshaker to comp for better RoF)

[mdigibou]

incase you were wondering spekkio, orks is kroot -> tc -> anotherkroot/fw -> fw -> fw
if he goes BS mass, spids in there somewhere.

tier 2 go fish + shields. and drone squads/broadsides. use fish + fw's like you would SM bolter wall against his banner fields. quickly tech to tier 3 for hounds and finish off his waagh mass. if he goes gitz, your warriors will annihilate them, just dont start running away, kick up the shields and wait for the juice. if he spams free sluggas, keep 3x drone squads around and spam burrow/unburrow. otherwise you pretty much win by attrition.

the only thing ork has that i havent been able to completely effectively counter is kan spam cus mass SS get torn apart by bigga waagh cus of sight range, and since your cap is full of them, vehicles get totally destroyed by TB's.


and ya, ig v tau, its somewhat imbalanced towards tau just cus of spids solar pulse.. it basically annihilates a full gm squad just like that..

[RoninOni]

^^ you only have 1 rather short reference to IG in your post, and its more related to Tau, which is most of your post.... you get confused what thread your in? LOL

[Arcinatus]

personally i think EVERYTHING in the ig arsenal that is available in tier 1 - early tier 2 needs to have cost decreased by small amounts. another thing is that the basilisk could use a better reload time, and HWT's need a lower build time (30-35 seconds..around that). as stated by other, the real problem with ig is that everything is so damn expensive / cost ineffective early game....

[TankHunter678]

This is what I would like to see personally

-Guardsmen price reduced from 160 to 120
Guardsmen die very fast to enemy fire even in mass, sufficient enemy forces can make IG spend more on infantry then it can on teching, also this can open up more build options that work well with ideas I will state later on.

-Kasrkin moved to tier 2, cap upped to 3, damage nerfed if needed
Kasrkin are strong support units that IG needs to hold the line effectively, if they are too strong in tier 3 then moving them to tier 2 would buff tier 2 without costing IG its integrity as a race. Also considering that Kasrkin are not all that rare and are millions in number amongst the trillions of GMs they are far more in supply then terminators or obliterators. Balances fluff with gameplay. Also they are 3 pop which means spamming = less units to work with.

- Ogryns moved to tier 2.5, cap upped to 2, damage nerf if needed
Ogryn's are IGs only melee unit besides mini-heroes and the command squad. Moving them from tier 3 nerfs tier 3 without weakening IGs integrity. Also given that these units are conscripted from worlds where their population is probably dominant they are in large enough numbers for the Imperial Guard to throw around. Not some rare unit like Assault Terminators.

-Chimera and Hellhound HP buffed along with a armor buff.
For Assault vehicles the Chimera dies very fast and in many cases the Hellhound does not have enough time to get a good flame going to do the damage it can before it dies to AV or other hard/soft counters. Increasing HP and maybe upping them to a higher but not vehicle high armor class would give these two tanks a chance to fight.

-Leman Russ cap increased to 4, pop decreased to 3.
If you will not increase Chimera and Hellhound surviveability then you must make it easier for IG to counter effective heavy armor with the versitile and efficient Leman Russ. Considering the fact that the Leman Russ would have to do the work of 2 other units.

-Curse of the Machine Spirit moved from Psyker to the Techpriest
The Techpriest is a servant of the Machine God, not the psyker who is a servant of the Emperor above all others. With this ability anyone who has the Techpriest at the front repairing tanks could activate the ability causing the Techpriest to use his vast knowledge of machines to disable enemy weapons and movement functionality. Makes more sense then a Psyker doing it since he is charged with knowing how to cast the odd spell and protecting others.

-CS spells and abilities on a global timer
The ability to use Fantaticism 4 times with good micro can make the CS be the ultimate disruptor and hero killer, 4 Psykers can nearly kill a hero in one volley of Strip soul. By putting a global timer on the CS abilities mixing is encouraged over spamming one mini-hero brining the CS down to a more easily measurable area.

-CS Kasrkin Guard imported from campaign to multiplayer
By brining in the Kasrkin Guards from the campaign you turn the CS into the ultimate in flexible heroes. The CS can be effective at range, melee, or anywhere in between with the inclusion of primarily ranged experts

-Commissar ability: Precision Aura
Fear of the commissar executing any of the GMs should cause any GM near the commissar to be more accurate to prevent themselves from getting killed by the Commissar.

-Commissar Ability: Morale Regeneration Aura
Guardsmen should be more afraid of the Commissar then they are of the enemy, they would rather fight then be subject to a round to the back of the head. Lasting longer by sheer fear.

-Priest Damage increase nerf

-Priest Ability: Healing Aura
The Priest has many scars from battle which should remind the Guardsmen that the damage they have taken is superficial. With prayers of healing to the emperor alongside the Priest who leads the prayer before the battle the Gms should feel they can last longer in the presence of the very man who showed them that devotion can lead to healing of the flesh.

-Psyker Ability: Ranged Damage Reduction Aura
The Psyker is rapidly receiving psychic information on the direction enemy fire is moving, allowing him to subconsciously move nearby Guardsmen with his mind allowing guardsmen to last longer by not getting hit as easily.

The Auras are Ideas I have seen implemented in DoWPro to great effect that allow the Guardsmen to survive effectively, while still maintaining some built in boosts for attaching the mini-heroes it also makes IG a tad bit more unique and makes for a better flavor when playing IG. For the most part I have tried to stick away from hard numbers to allow you all to find good ones but overall this is what I would like to see.

So you know I see tier 3 as being the Leman Russ deployment and I see BaneBlade deployment as tier 4. With moving Kasrkin to tier 2 to strengthen it and moving Ogryns to Tier 2.5 you have nerfed tier 3, without comprimising the ability for IG to fight. It will still be a tech race to get the BaneBlade as always.

[Chris]

lower Ogryn DPS to the point where they're doing around 60-70 DPS to hvy_high with a Priest. Right now nearly all IG players just rush to Tier 3, which is both lame and boring.


I don't see the point in doing something like this. Ogryns are 110% useless without a priest because; 1. they are slow and 2. they have mediocre hitpoints and a below average squad size. Sending ogryns into a fight that isn't already heavily in your favour is often suicide because all their strength comes from the priest bonus'.

What needs to be done with Kasrkin/ogryns is reduce their dependancy on the priests, but reduce the bonus' that the priest provides for them. The priest bonus' is what make IG tier 3 so strong. Yes it's true that IG heroes are supposed to be required to bring IG infantry to their full potential but the difference in stength between non-priest squads and priest'ed squads is far too much.

[Dux]

I think the Priest-reliance thing kind of sucks, too, but the problem with changing Priest bonus values to fix IG T3 is that you end up nerfing IG T2 too hard. Without the omglol Priest bonuses, GM in T2 would be underpowered.

[Vytae]

So would IG t3.

IG mechanics is alot like necrons in that where there structure is so forced and artificial that if you tinker with one little bit the whole thing falls apart. Mainly because their entire early-to-mid game is based on GM and anything effecting the mino heros effects the GM,and if its a negative effect it transfers over.

[Chris]

Without the omglol Priest bonuses, GM in T2 would be underpowered.


Hmmm I disagree. I find priest'ed plasma guardsmen to be pretty close to imbalanced as they are now, mostly due to their building/vehicle damage. AFAIK the priest damage bonus can be modified on a weapon by weapon basis, ergo you can nerf preist damage bonus for some units without making it a global nerf. Not 100% positive on that though.

[4Servant]

A simple buff to the basy can fix the issue in t2 so you can nerf the priest =)

[Warp Holder]

The sentinels are too useless after T2. I would add a research to increase HPs and DMG in T3. The Chimeras and Hellhounds may also benefit with this.
Same for the Lascannon HWTs.


-CS Kasrkin Guard imported from campaign to multiplayer
By brining in the Kasrkin Guards from the campaign you turn the CS into the ultimate in flexible heroes. The CS can be effective at range, melee, or anywhere in between with the inclusion of primarily ranged experts

Good idea, but he should have his HPs buffed to keep him in line with the other CS members.
In the campaign, he was often the first to die.

[RoninOni]

Basy buff would not make up for worthless GM in T2.
It takes gms with priest attached, and another GM squad nearby with an executing Commie, to compete with other armies T2. They do quite well mind you if done properly, but if you nerf Priests because Karks or ogrynns w/ priests are too powerful in T3 then you will be hardcore nerfing IG T2.

[TankHunter678]

Has anyone thought to use the Bayonet rush to bypass enemy range upgrades?

With enough GMs even without leaders you can mass melee enemy HW squads to death. It becomes either run or die to mass GM. Even dedicated melee specialists can die to a mass of GM in melee with a few plasma support squads. I have done it before and I have gone entire games without using a single mini-hero or the command squad. Works quite well even if the enemy is in tier 2. Only worry is CC vehicles which can be easily countered with sentinels or mass Chimeras.

One idea though for the Kasrkin is to give them infiltration but make it so that any mini-hero prevents the infiltration. Then people will not stick priests on Kasrkin and you can safely increase their hardcap to 3. Ogryns at this time need priests so they can get into CC since you have a hardcap of 1, increase their hardcap to 3, and make it so no mini-hero can attach, as well as give them a speed boost to charging into melee and you got yourself a non-OP group of Ogryns.

[God_Of_Scots]

Dont reduce the price of basks. They're instant game changers.

[magicalcarpet]

Yeah, game changers because they mean you can't tech and thus, just lost yourself the game.

I only ever get them vs. Tau or vs. GM mass IG. Even then they can just be nullified by transports.

[RoninOni]

Bassies cost way to much for what they do. Their only power lies in earthshakers which cost 200/200 per shot... and can be dodged making them a waste! so only with a massive income can you afford to bomb them with earthshakers, and if the game is even then they can still out attrition you. Best thing about earthshakers is the shock value. Fire off 2-3 earthshakers in a row and many people will just charge you with everything they have allowing you to utilize what defenses and terrain you need to beat them. and with no army, all the money in the bank won't let them rebuild fast enough...

In T2 however 300 power for a weapon that fires once every 9 seconds... and deviates (causing half the shots to completly miss)... is just ridiculous. Now Im down with the deviation, makes it kinda interesting (even if it is unrealistic seeing as how todays artillery is pinpoint accurate and they are how many years in the future? 38000?) but it also means you need more than one to be effective, and 600 power and 6 veh supply (meaning you need another MC to get the chims which are a must) for 1 hit every 9 seconds... for some reason that just doesnt add up.

Bassies ARE broken. Keep the DPS nerf from the 1.2 patch, but give them their RoF back at the very least

[TankHunter678]

Either give bassie back its speed or reverse the DPS nerf to make it so that bassie has punch behind the speed it has.

When it comes to the Earthshaker...use them to kill structures not units, use it on static positions like turret masses and production structures to cripple the enemy. Using them on units dilutes their power when you could be smashing the enemy base to hell and making it harder for them to produce new units when they charge your forces and die.

[KotCR]

IMO Bassies should stay exactly as they are, but take 2 cap instead of 3, to make them more practical in T2.

(Not needing to build an extra mech bay in order to get Sents/Chimmies in addition to a Bassi will make the overall cost of Bassies less).

[TankHunter678]

Right now the Bassie cannot compete with the speed of the other races artillery, the Whirlwind fires faster then the bassie and personally when I use the bassie to counter fire on whirlwinds I use the ES to kill them. Since the Whirlwinds will do more damage to them then they will do to it. Also the Whirlwind is not capped as low as the Bassie.

[Dux]

A simple buff to the basy can fix the issue in t2 so you can nerf the priest =)
Good point.

[KotCR]

Right now the Bassie cannot compete with the speed of the other races artillery, the Whirlwind fires faster then the bassie and personally when I use the bassie to counter fire on whirlwinds I use the ES to kill them. Since the Whirlwinds will do more damage to them then they will do to it. Also the Whirlwind is not capped as low as the Bassie.

No. It's capped lower. Whirlwind is max limit of 1, and takes a whopping 5 cap up. You can get up to 3 Bassi's at 3 cap each, right now. Sorry but the Basilisk already has the Whirlwind beat here.

Whirlwind is also T4, which never sees the light of day outside large team games because it just isn't worth it for the Space Marines. Bassi is only T2, though chances are you won't see them till T3 because of their huge cost.

[WhiteDeVile]

Ive read the thread from the beginning, there's some stuff about GM's being weak in T1... well Ive got an odd idea :Loco: maybe someone will like it xd

Ppl say that GM's effectivness doesnt compensate the cost, sooo they need more versitality or whatever advantage they can get over other races T1 units.

Guardsmen tend to say "for everyone of us fall, two more will take his place" or whatever it was, soo my idea is :

You get this by research or initially, so how about you pay for reinforce ONCE (vide you click the plus icon once)
and you get TWO guardsmen for the cost of one... isnt it... stupid XP
But that could be fun!
And... original, and variety and stuff...! maybe I should mod-lab this ... XP
Keep in mind that its not the same as lowering the price of a single GM to half,
cause reinforcing TWO in half of a time is something slightly different, its something more like Zerg in SC, they could build 3 units while other races could build one, know what I mean ?
And its an advantage that would be decent only in T1, since after that GM tend to suck a bit.

[KotCR]

In that case why not just half the cost/time of the reinforcement? Would be much more practical.

Besides 10 req per Guardsman would = imba.

[WhiteDeVile]

For the love of imba gods, mate read my post again... <__<

Or in case you still dont understand ...
Lets say ONE GM costs 50 res and takes 10 seconds to reinforce
(I used such ridiculous numbers so it'll be easier to understand)

So after usin my idea :
You pay 50 res, wait 10 seconds and get two guards...

Now using your idea you either :
Pay 50 (2x25) res, wait 20 (2x10) seconds and get two guards
(lowered cost example)

Or pay 100 (2x50) res wait 10 (2x5) seconds and get two guards
(lowered build time example)

Using both of your variants its
You pay 50 res wait 10 seconds and get two guards, BUT its still not the same, you wait for that second guy, while he would be shooting already if he'd reinforced at the same time with the first one.

Reinforcing TWO at the same time, isnt the same as reinforcing two separately in shorter time, for lower cost.


Whatever, cause my idea basically sucks XP

[RoninOni]

youd have to up the cost of the reinforce though, 20 per is already ridiculously cheap. Its the Tax that hurts in T1 however so lowering reinforce cost just makes them stronger end game while not affecting T1 all that much... with the exception that everyone would GM rush in T1 lol

cheaper nades/armory/commies would mean more use of GM's in T1 as those are the only thing that really make them battle effective. Otherwise you could attempt to mass GM's and charge for melee (though you'd still prolly want a couple commies thrown in as well as your CS) which might make for the most cost effective T1 battle strat.

As far as whirlwind vs Bassie, bassie wins in terms of pop, but whirlwind has 100% no FF damage making it far more effective (and the reason for the extra pop) I would have little against taking the whirlwind down a tier or 2, however it would need a subsequent nerf to accuracy and damage as well as FF, and have its pop lowered.
As far as the bassie, I would have little problems making it more like the whirlwind where its a T4 5pop mosterous artillery piece. That would be great, but as it stands for its cost, pop, RoF, and DPS it just doesnt add up w/out earthshakers (and yes I shoot at buildings with it, usually trying to get some units under the AOE as well. But you will spend more money on earthshakers than the buildings you demolish 80%+ of the time unless they packed their buildings close together..... thank you crons ;) )

[Angry Rhinp]

I think that cheaper T1 armory and upgrades, or commies would end up not actually doing very much, as players would still want to get to teir 2 fast for executed GM, which is cheap and effective.

[RoninOni]

I think the whole game needs to be slowed down, DoW vanilla style, where you are in each tier for at LEAST 5 minutes... minimum, and thats fast teching, for all factions. I think the game would be easier to balance then as well because you could look at it more of a tier at a time, T2 should beat T1 etc

[Zany Reaper]

Lol, I liked slow teching from DOW too (hence I resurrected it in my own mod), but it ain't gonna happen in DC again.

[RoninOni]

well, hopefully DoW2 will have slower tech pace, as well as a number of other issues that have been brought up in these forums *cough*necronomy*cough*

[crappy]

let me suggest something, that I thougth, has already been suggested before, why dont add a upgrade or tech that allow the guardsmen to reduce the cost of their troops (excepting elite ones, kasrkin 'n ogryns). It could be available until t2, and only reduce de squad tax to 140, but let the guardsmen purchase another guy when the squad get completed, and in t3 it could reduce the tax to 135, but you get 8 mens squads. It could be applied to the heavy weapons team too, reducing their building and their cost.
And also I would like a little increase in commander hp to the guard officials out of the command squad, but also a cost increasing, something small like a commisar 100 40 a priest 120/50.
Also a cost reduction in tactical command (the guard armory) will make the weapons be available to the guars early before the boss.
My humble opinion, but again, Im not a pro, just a enthusiastic.

[RoninOni]

squad tax is biggest early game and effects you less as the game progresses into larger econs...
HWT's do need a build time and cost decrease, not to much, but currently they just arent worth it
Same with Bassie, too expensive for effectiveness

priests + ogrynns/karks are OP, personally i think they should have an upgrade for ogrynns and karks to make them better, but deny them attached leaders. bam problem solved, and you could give them different bonuses (ogrynns speed, karks damage or whatever)

[TankHunter678]

Give the Kasrkin a Infiltration upgrade that requires no attached leaders to work. Ogryns however can be just set to not allow attaching and you can safely beef up their regen or rather lower the cap on them, as well as Kasrkin.