[Balance] PE...just a TAD bit overpowered?

[chandlerr_360]

Today I was playing a game as the Americans against the PE on Semois, and by the time I had a single Rifleman squad, he had about six. Now, this was my first time playing against the Panzer Elite, so I did not know what too expect, but it was just ridiculous. He had almost total map control by the time I had two rifleman squads and started too buld my WSC. It would not be so bad if my Engineers or Rifleman actually STOOD A CHANCE against these little squads of thee guys. They get desroyed every single time.

I asked the guy what was going on, and he said, "Yeah, Gewehrs rock." And then, next thing I know, he has three Mortar Halftracks setting my base on fire, and I can't even build anything without them spawning into a pool of flame...

All I know is that I was having zero fun, and even though this is a Beta too test balance and such...is Relic crazy?

Afterwards I went and tried the faction myself. Considering that I had never played them before, I too had map control against a American player within the first 3 minutes. Now, I know the whole point of the PE is too expand quickly and be offensive, but when the entire point of the game is to get map control, why make a faction that is specifcally better at it then everyone else?

I don't know, so far I am not impressed.

[DBSights]

One rifle squad to six? What were you doing? You should have had a 1 to 1 and, with your superior riflesquad, easily destroyed his infantry. PE is not OP. In fact, I find it easier to kill PE as US compared to the Brits.

[Gamesguy]

PE is basically riflespam on crack. Sniper is your best bet due to their small squad size.

And you pretty much have to go infantry company and use rangers, otherwise you stand no chance.

[Jeopardia_Ferdy]

yeah I (PE) was literaly anihilated by mass sniper spamming combined with MGs > AP. No chance for grenadiers no chance for HT. So best way to beat PE is WSC start...

[Gamesguy]

Nope, if you do WSC start you will get eaten alive by scout car spam+1 mortar HT.

30cals are horrid vs PE due to the extremely powerful mortar HT.

[DBSights]

rifle spam -> bars -> rangers/stickies will work almost every time. No HMG's to slow you down.

[B4_life]

a couple of things:

1) engineers shouldn't win because they have they same squad size. ask KCHs.
2) Pgrens are 255 manpower. if he had 6 Pgrens by the time you had one rifle, you spammed engineers for a while.
3) 3 mortar halftracks is 120 fuel, +20 fuel for the building, and thats if he got no fuel update and no other building/vehicle. byt that time you should have gotten something to counter him (quad springs to mind; 50+45+25 (SD+MP+Halftrack) =120 fuel!)

[chandlerr_360]

B4...you seem to have forgotten that he had almost total map control with Panzer grenadiers so I was barely bringing in any fuel or ammo.

Anyways, I played a few more games, and managed too beat a PE noob, but that is ONLY because he did not spam countless numbers of PG's...I am 6-0 with PE so far myself. I still think they are overpowered as of now.

EDIT: I have now come to the conclusion, after palying even more games, that the Gewehr Rifle upgrade for the Panzer Grenadiers would pretty much fix the stupid spamming rush problem, because I come across it just about every game against PE.

It makes them very effetive at long range, and for some reason, up close, they are insta-kill weapons...try it yourself.

[CountChoculaBot]

In one game I had 3 triple offensive vet Gewehr'd Grens. It was freakin hilarious how well they killed infantry, even at medium range. It reminded me of double MG42'd Grenadiers... except w/o the 150 Munition cost or setup time. To me it was basically an MG42 (gren upgrade) at long range and almost an MP40 at close range. But this was with 3 triple offensive vet squads... so...

[AverageJoe]

Those things are insane with vet 3 offensive...

[Kingbuns]

The American riflemen blow now they suck against the PE infantry.

[chandlerr_360]

Does Relic pay attention to these posts?

[martino]

Funny that people are complaining about PE spam when riflespam has dominated vanilla CoH for so long..

About time I say :-)

[Gamesguy]

The biggest problem with PE isnt the grenadiers themselves, but the rather overpowering mortar halftrack.

Everything else is fine,

[stumpster]

Agreed with Gamesguy.

Counter to heavy infantry? WSC and MG's/Mortars. Mortar HT runs from anything that could kill it and more than counters the entire WSC start for Americans for a rather small investment (Like 500 MP and 60 F?).

[0mar]

LOL, are you guys serious? I have games where I had groups of PGs with defensive vet and group zeal just running around killing everything while taking absolutely zero damage. It's absolutely ridiculous, you don't need anything else. Crocs literally do nothing to them, Quads don't do anything, it's absurd. In a game vs Surprise, I focus fired 4 Riflemen w/ BARs and a Quad on a single PG squad and they killed 2 guys after about 5 seconds of firing. By that time, the PG horde swarmed my riflemen and obliterated them all, then turned their sights on the Quad.

[Gamesguy]

Ya with the group vet and group zeal PEs get pretty crazy.

[B4_life]

group zeal needs to be nerfed, thats for sure. defensive vet too, probably.

[mbamber]

I think Relic should take Omars advice and do something about PE Veteran OP. They can run around and not get hurt. They become invincible. No Unit can kill them. Listen to Omar:


LOL, are you guys serious? I have games where I had groups of PGs with defensive vet and group zeal just running around killing everything while taking absolutely zero damage. It's absolutely ridiculous, you don't need anything else. Crocs literally do nothing to them, Quads don't do anything, it's absurd.

[Hepina]

I first thought that Marder III's and Hummel's abilities (Site Gun or something) would completely immobilize the vehicles so they could not turn. I like them both very much, but having such a long-range, quite fast shooting powerful tank destroyer with 360 degree turning indeed makes them really strong. It wouldn't make them useless either, if enemy flanks them, just deactivate the ability and you can instantly turn Marder to encounter the flanking vehicles.

Not sure if Hummel would require such a change though.

[mbamber]

Hummels + PG Shrek squads + Group Zeal + Defensive Vet = Absolute ridculousness WTFBUGNEEDSCHANGINGIMMEDIATELY

[jellow]

i find no problem playing against PE with rifles.

[Cobra5]

As brits, I haven't had much problems with PE. At least, no problems more then I would have against any other players. They don't seem too particularly strong or weak.

I have no experience in America vs PE unfortunately, either as PE or America.

[Beardstroke]

I find vs PE it is necessary to get an early sniper out.

You must remember for every panzer grenadier you kill, he has to pay at least 45 manpower to reinforce. and a sniper is very good at adding that up.

as for hunting down mortar halftracks (which cost 40 fuel btw) a simple unexpected rifleman sticky takes short work of it. ranger squad too, or even an m3.

grenades also work wonders against panzer.

as someone else mentioned awhile ago on these forums, the key to winning as american is to have a mix of units.

[stumpster]

@ Beard

If you are able to Sticky a Mortar HT, the PE player is doing something very, very wrong. Rangers would be okay, although you'd have to know where he is beforehand and make sure to finish him off, otherwise he's just going to get repaired inside his own base by PGrens. An M8 would probably be your best bet, although that would come out a little late if your opponent goes straight for the Mortar HT seeing as how the Shrek also comes from the same building. (20F for Building, 40F for Mortar HT, 35F to get Shreks while it's 15F for Barracks/WSC, 50F for Supply Yard, 45F for MP, 30F to get out an M8.)

95 F to get a Mortar HT and Shreks to cover
140 F to get an M8 out to counter his Mortar HT

Hell, there's enough of a difference there for the PE player to give his PGrens the Inc. Grenades and Defensive Ops and still come out on top in the tech battle.

[Gamesguy]

M8 doesnt help. The mortar HT would just run back to his base where his base guns would own the m8.

[chandlerr_360]

Mortar Halftracks just need a slight Increase in Manpower and Fuel, and possibly even there incinerate mortar power being removed.

As far the PG's go, I still only find there Gewehr upgrade too be causing any significant problems. Zeal and defense I can deal with (although they need to be nerfed a little bit) , but the Gewehr's are just absolutely insanity...

[man4857]

The Panzer Grenadiers are pretty easy to fight against using American Rifleman. I always start with Barracks against any PE player and easily take map control early on to gain fuel. Try building in this order against the grenadiers.

1. Barracks + 1 extra engineer (start capping the closest fuel/point that connects to fuel near your base)
2. Build Rifleman (2-4), use other engineer to help cap points also
3. Use the infantry you got to cap everything in your favor. (At this time, you should see the first Panzer Grenadiers pop out fighting at choke points.)
4. Upgrade BAR's and MK2's if you have enough fuel (at this time you should see Gewehr's or Assault Rifles on the Grenadiers). If you can't manage to weaken/kill them, use SF on them and when supressed/pinned use MK2's. Use your SF and grenades wisely because they're both costly to use at the same time so don't just use SF on a single squad, use it on multiple squads.

BTW. Pershing's seem useless now :-\

[nichtganz]

If you guys think pG's are bad, you need to play against the british...

[Gamesguy]

Panzer Elite in its current form absolutely rape the Americans and the British.

[nichtganz]

Piats, and riflenades rape face all day long, that and officer/Sergant bonuses just wreck PE. And Rangers they are just stupid now.

[Gamesguy]

The game is already over by the time rangers come out, and rangers arent so powerful that they can fight group zealed and vetted PE heads on.

Riflenades? Don't make me laugh, the PE roll right over the british early game.

[chandlerr_360]

Yeah British are fine in my opinion, not OP at all.

[Valleth]

Actually, the PE do not totally dominate the americans and british. I would concede that the americans are definately a huge underdog vs the PE... yes, they could use some buffing against them. But the brits are far from helpless. If you play the brits the way they are designed to be played, defensively, you will have no problem stopping any kind of PE attack.

The main problem comes in when brits divide their troops, or they move their HQ too early or too late. There is a fine balance that must be achieved and the brits have a very different play style.

However, it is still possible to win with americans, but think about it, do you think that upgrading to BARs and closing in is the best idea against 44s??? Try unupgraded rifles at range vs PE, works wonders... and good old nades are great too.

[Gamesguy]

Unupgraded rifles at range get eaten alive by K98s and G43s. Bars do nothing against them due to the retarded accuracy penalty vs PE.

[QuinoSpeed]

I have played PE vs Americans and belive me if you with rangers they really trash PE in no time

[Gamesguy]

hahaha funny guess all you noobplayers that never tried to learn the game and instead played riflespam all of the suddenly has problems now.

Riflespam require almost as much skill/micro as its counter. Ask Omar.

And you think riflespam is bad? Wait till you get pio/PE spammed.

[haido]

Never had problem with it during the days in vanilla coh. Also watch replays amongst top players. There not so much of riflespam there either.

[Gamesguy]

Are you kidding me? I am one of those top players and all you see is riflespam+wsc for a mortar at the top levels, this is currently the most powerful allied strat.

On the flip side, FHQ volkspam is gaining popularity for the axis side, and there's an unwritten agreement to not use piospam due to overpoweredness atm.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

S'not riflespam if you built a WSC. ;p

[shihku7]

Once PE Panzergrenadier's hit rank 3, they're unstoppable. I shot at them with the British mortar tank round, and not one of them died. They're like Terminator T-800s at that point . Heck, I'm pretty sure I shot at them with the British Recon element sniper round and the enemy didn't die from the shot.

[Jaigen]

Once PE Panzergrenadier's hit rank 3, they're unstoppable. I shot at them with the British mortar tank round, and not one of them died. They're like Terminator T-800s at that point . Heck, I'm pretty sure I shot at them with the British Recon element sniper round and the enemy didn't die from the shot.

I find that hard to believe as vet 3 defensive with group zeal is no more powerfull then axis tier 3 inf vet

[shihku7]

Which part? I'm 90% sure I shot them with sniper rounds and they did not die, so there is a margin of error there. But I'm 100% sure that my Mortar Churchhill tank's round did not kill anyone when I blasted them with it. The squad of 3 PGs were at 50% health though, so perhaps they were all near death.

[Jaigen]

sniper rounds can still miss vet 3 defensive ads a 15% penalty to accuracy. and are you absolutely sure that mortar hit the squad because no way a pe squads survives a direct hit from a mortar they will survive the aoe

[Gamesguy]

I find that hard to believe as vet 3 defensive with group zeal is no more powerfull then axis tier 3 inf vet

You'd be wrong. Axis tier 2 armor comes with all sorts of penalties(like snipers get 3x accuracy vs them), where as the PE defensive vet comes with ZERO penalties.

[Jaigen]

You'd be wrong. Axis tier 2 armor comes with all sorts of penalties(like snipers get 3x accuracy vs them), where as the PE defensive vet comes with ZERO penalties.
__________________

yes im aware of that but flamers and snipers are not the mainstay weapon to kill something. firearms however are

[Gamesguy]

Vs vet axis troops snipers and flamers ARE the mainstay to kill them, the solution is not more bar rifles.