[balance]New guys a bit light on fuel tech?

[bananfiend07]

If you haven't noticed, the new factions brit/PE, tend to have pretty low resource requirments for their tech.
The brit structure where you build sappers/captain/stewart is a mere 30 fuel and 180 MP. Stewarts(total fuel tech 65) are vastly better than the M8 but the M8 has a comparatively massive fuel tech cost compunded by a pretty high cost itself(30).

Each PE building is only 20 fuel with the half track(an MG42 on wheels)only 20 more. Thats only 10 less than getting both the weapons support center and the barracks! The mortar half track can be had for only 60 fuel total, only 10 more than the american supply depot(50 fuel) alone, or 10 less than total BAR cost(60 fuel + 15 fuel for barracks). Throw in the cost of a barracks and a vehicle depot, and the americans are way behind in cost effective firepower with circumstances being equal. Panzershrecks are 35 fuel while sticky bombs, which don't compare, are 25!

...bleh, whatever. I don't really want to drag this out. The costs are there to see for everyone. PE and Brits have low cost high powered units while the other two factions, Americans in particular IMO, have massive fuel costs in order to reach sub par units like the M8(always has been) or the 17mm AT gun(now is thanks to mortar HT).

This is mellowed a little bit in team games, but I think it really shows strongly in 1on1.

[Yob]

I found that the pe were very costly on fuel, because every thing you build that isnt normal infantry has a fuel cost. Need an mg42, costs fuel. Want a mortar, costs fuel. At gun, costs fuel. Although its a lower fuel cost than other teams vehicles, its still a constant fuel drain.

Brits could be a bit different though, as they only have 3 buildings, and then its units needed to tech up.

[Gamesguy]

Who needs halftracks when you have 8 foot tall supermen? The only halftrack I find myself building is the mortar.

[bananfiend07]

I usually have at least one normal HT to reinforce PGs. Other than a Mortar HT and a normal HT, nothing else really gets much field time. Sometimes I make a marder, but that's less out of necessity and more out of novelty. Rest of my fuel income goes to panzer grenadier upgrades.

[Znuff]

PE has very high manpower costs to tech up. This is a serious downside as while the fuel costs arent that high, there is not that much benifit in getting lots of fuel as the manpower will still be a limit. The same is true for units, while there are some fuel needed, there is mostly manpower that limits so you cant spend excess fuel for wastly supperior units for the same manpower.

Brittish are pretty cheap to tech up with, althou its not that much high tech stuff to get in the end, wich is good as it would be bad if the most defensive army had lots of good things to tech up to. Brittish is most likely to spend most of their fuel on emplacements.

US has alot lower teching costs then Wermacht thou so isnt realy bad off in any way. The armor is easy to reach compared to others. Reaching T4 as Wermacht is extremely expensive in comparison to US.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Stewarts(total fuel tech 65)

Stuarts require the captain to be produced before they can be built.

[bottenbreker]

may i remind you that PE's speciality is blitzkrieg style? :D so its pretty logic that you get "low" fuel costs but i do agree that you have a constant fuel drain for about everything XD

[wraith546]

I generally find myself hurting for manpower rather than fuel with the new sides, particularly the british.

I generally feel constantly undermanned as the brits

[Dao2-SKP]

The halftracks too me are very expensive (the 20 fuel hurts for something so damn weak >< and it's sorely needed with the PE)

[Philman]

With the brits, once you play them some more, you will often find that you are swimming in munitions (depending on doctrine), or fuel......but you will almost always be very short on Manpower......You will never be in any danger of "floating" manpower!

[bananfiend07]

Stuarts require the captain to be produced before they can be built.

Yeah, the structure is 30 fuel and the captain is 35 fuel, thus the total cost of tech in fuel is 65. That's extremely low. The Stewart itself is 45 fuel 280 manpower.

I can't remember the exact cost of the American vehicle depot, but its around 40 fuel I think, and it requires a barracks/wsc(15 fuel each) and the supply depot(50 fuel), and the only worthwhile unit in there is the half track. So, the tech cost for an M8, probably the worst light vehicle in the game, is about 105 fuel(not counting the price of the M8 itself, just the tech). Thats a pretty big difference. And forget heavy tanks, the tank depot is 90 fuel! Good luck finding that cost effective against the tech cost of marders or panzershrecks.

And the point that PE vehicles cost fuel is moot, because they are UNITS, they ACT, and the American vehicles cost as much or MORE and come later. For the mere cost of TECH for the Americans you can have units on the field affecting the game, taking and holding resources. Their fuel cost is a VERY small price to pay for their influence in the game.

And while I focus largely on the Americans, the Wehrmacht suffers largely the same situation.

IMO there are several ways to help this situation for the americans.

1. reduce the cost of the supply depot. It's 50 fuel and does absolutely nothing but let you upgrade upkeep and make other buildings. This is vastly overpriced.

2 Reduce the cost of the weapons support center to 0 fuel. It always has been and still is mostly useless except for snipers. separating the American basic units into two structures with a total cost of 30 fuel, when everybody else gets their main combat units for less fuel(20 in the case of both PE and wehrmacht) and from the first built structure its not cool. The WSC has been gimped from day one. Do something about it finally.

[Znuff]

Tank Depot is a bargain, it gets you all the tanks in one building and costs 450MP 140FP to get. PzIV alone costs 640MP 100FP, then add Marder III for an additional 640MP 80FP and its not even done there as you need even more for Panthers. The low manpower costs for US is very nice as you dont have to give up as much troops to tech up. The only faction with serious high tech costs are Wermacht.

[bananfiend07]

By the time you have a tank depot, a PE player already has had EVERYTHING he needs to counter it en masse.

Panzershrecks are a mere 35 fuel for the upgrade and 20 fuel for the structure. 55 fuel into the game a PE player has the potential for panzershrecks which alone are all he needs.

A tank depot takes a barracks or wsc(15 each), a supply depot(50) and then it is 90 fuel itself, and thats if you skip the vehicle depot, which really isnt a good option 90% of the time because you need a quad to help with the PG spam. That's 165 fuel in tech alone.

So hmm, 165 vs 55 tech, then it's MORE FUEL just to build a tank while the shreck is added to an already ubiquitous platform for 75 munitions.

Common, don't waste my time using the marder as a counter example for expensive armor. It is the cheapest most effective tank hunter ever to enter this game. Fast to access, has the ultimate in range, with a massive punch.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Panzershrecks are a mere 35 fuel for the upgrade and 20 fuel for the structure.

The irony here is that this statement is true for Wehrmacht too.

Axis AT has always come out very early fuelwise.



Yeah, the structure is 30 fuel and the captain is 35 fuel, thus the total cost of tech in fuel is 65. That's extremely low. The Stewart itself is 45 fuel 280 manpower.

Not building a LT is crazy talk.

[bananfiend07]

Axis AT was never to the degree of what we see with the panzer elite. The worst AT issue with the werhmacht was the stug, and it was dealt with, and shrecks never were really an issue because you had to pay 150 munitions.

Yes, I did forget the Lt, add another 15 fuel on there, it still leaves a ridiculous gap.

[nunya]

Reduce the cost of the weapons support center to 0 fuel. It always has been and still is mostly useless except for snipers.

Really? The MG is useless. The mortar is useless. Please explain how they are useless and why people are still using them. I'm not arguing the fuel aspect btw.

[Znuff]

As you say, the numbers are there for everyone to see. PE can get either a Tank Hunter or a Infantry Support tank for less fuel, but alot more manpower then US. But US gets both and also a generic tank for that slightly more fuel and alot less manpower.

[Philman]

I don't think this gentleman has played the game enough to be commenting on cost related problems. He wants the best side in the game to be even cheaper? Give your head a shake. Mortars useless? Wow, won't get into everything thats wrong with that statement. Brits cheap on fuel? I don't think so. They rely on manpower, not fuel.

[Virigoth]

There are massive gaps between vCoH faction teching and PE/Brit teching. I'm pretty sure Relic will need to seriously look at Werhmacht (sp?) teching costs otherwise it's going to be pretty stupid:

For quick comparison:
PE MP44s = 40 fuel
Wer Mp44s = 150 fuel

PE Marder = 120 fuel
Wer StuG (T1-Sturm) = 170 fuel

[bananfiend07]

I've played the game plenty, I have at least 50 games.

The WSC is pretty lame, mortars are ok if you're fighting a wehrmacht player, but against PE, WHERE THIS ISSUE LIES they don't prove to be that useful. The MG, no it isn't useful, the mortar half track puts any mg out of commission in no time.

Brits have comparitively very little to spend on fuel, unless you think you need to mass emplacements. All of their tanks have a low fuel cost(again the tech fuel cost is also very low) excluding the fire fly, and they rely primarily on tommies and sappers with lieutenant support, which rely on munitions. Brits really only need a single secured med fuel point to be effective. It doesn't hurt to have more, but they can absolutely do without. Securing at least one fuel med/high point is not hard to do... at all.

I've got a feeling you think Americans means Rangers phil. Guess what, there's more to americans than rangers. Americans are far from the best in relation to the new factions.

[Znuff]

WSC only costs 15 fuel while a mortar HT costs 40 each so if you can make a PE build a mortar HT then you actualy gained some fuel in the race for tech.

[stumpster]

WSC only costs 15 fuel while a mortar HT costs 40 each so if you can make a PE build a mortar HT then you actualy gained some fuel in the race for tech.

Not exactly.

With the Mortar HT coming from the same building as the Tank Hunters, the Panzer Elite can not only counter your WSC, but for a meager 35 fuel they can pick up Panzershreks and for 55 fuel get MP44's and Pshreks.

WSC/SD/MP will cost you more fuel than a KK/MortarHT/PJC.

[bananfiend07]

Not to mention your scenario is ignoring the barracks, which means you have very limited capping power and none at all where contested. The map belongs to the PE player, and he will likely have a better fuel income.

If you try to get both the WSC and barracks you have spent 30 fuel, and will yeild in map control again because you're spending more on tech than units compared to the PE player. The idea of such a build would be to make a hardpoint and then push out from it, but that's promptly ended by the mortar half track, which would probably be on you in no time depending on how the capping had been going(likely in the PE players favor).


You also fail to note that the mortar half track remains useful throughout the game while the american MG is completely nullified by its presence and the mortar will be in a tough situation, seeing how it can be countered by the half track but not vice versa.

[Ashmole3110]

PE is very fuel dependent;moreso than the Americans.

[Fayadi]

There are massive gaps between vCoH faction teching and PE/Brit teching. I'm pretty sure Relic will need to seriously look at Werhmacht (sp?) teching costs otherwise it's going to be pretty stupid:

For quick comparison:
PE MP44s = 40 fuel
Wer Mp44s = 150 fuel

PE Marder = 120 fuel
Wer StuG (T1-Sturm) = 170 fuel

Just reduce the Wehrmacht T2 upgrade from 200 MP 35 fuel to 200 MP 20 fuel and T3 upgrade from 200 MP 50 fuel to 200 MP 25 fuel. Then that would be more equal and make Wehrmacht not so disadvantageous in teching. T

[Skyhawk]

Though not experienced enough in 1v1 with Brits to comment, I disagree with the PE being light on fuel tech. Agree that it seems that way for Mortars and Halftracks, perhaps even Armoured cars but as soon as you decide get a heavier vehicle like a Marder or PzIV you run across not only substantial fuel costs but substantial time costs in a 1v1. The Mortars and Halftracks are substitutes for infantry based weapons in other armies and I think their continual fuel cost is balance enough with the light fuel teching.

[bananfiend07]

Relative to other internal fuel costs, the marder or the PzIV seem to have high costs, but they're not relative to the cost of werhmacht or american, and PE are designed such that you don't need all of it's buildings, so in a 1on1 game you choose your 'tree' and head through it. Whatever course you take there's anti infantry and anti tank, and it's inexpensive to unlock relative to american/werhmacht units of similar role or value.

The only way PE ever compare to the originals in fuel tech is if you try to get all the buildings, but thats always drawn out over a HUGE period of time, and is never absolutely necessary like it is for the linear american tech tree.

[AntiCommie]

IMO PE are fuel light to Tech, but heavy for units. You might be able to build a MHT in just 20 fuel, but its going to cost 40 each you want. Most other armies tech slower, but then have cheaper unit costs. Also, most PE light vehicles are weak to even small arms, so they arent hard to kill. Add in the single shrek limit to PGs and they lack AT/AV power. Marders/ATHT make up for this, but then your fuels being drained. I think it balances itself out pretty well in the end. Its not till late middle game that PGs become unstoppable, and by then Americans have Crocs/Shermans, and Brits have Arty to stop them.

[damxam]

I think there's a disparity. I know people say "Wehr gets upgrades by just tiering up, whereas PE has to pay for their upgrades individually" but that only works out if you can actually get to the higher tiers and as wehr that's not feasible in 1v1.

Instead Wehr is still stuck with limited strategic options which must either include T2 or Stormtrooper for shrek. T4 is still not feasible, and while I suppose the nebel buff makes T3 more attractive without a good Stug I still don't think much of it.

I'm very jealous of the PE's flexibility, Wehr needs some of this love very desparately. Allies have always been far more flexible, but if wehr panzers become viable then it may have to get a little easier to get to tank depot also.