DC 1.2 Global commander damage vs vehicle ubers

[SubakuGaara]

Ok. Let me start this thread with this statement from a killa kan thread


For example, the Chaplain does an average (by infantry anti-tank standards) 18.5dps to Kans after the Power Sword upgrade, while the Force Commander does 64.8...which is good, but really quite weak compared to the Chaos Lord's 170.2 dps (as it stands the Chaos Lord I believe single-handedly does more than the Chaplain+Force Commander+Librarian together against vehicle_high, and this is after Power Sword for the SM but before any upgrades for Chaos), so try not to use the Chaos Lord as an example for how "all heroes do ridiculous damage to vehicle_high", because most of them don't...they just do good damage.

If you don't understand the issue is this. Most commanders do very good damage vs daemon high (ie bloodthirsters, avatar, knarloc,etc) for the purpose of being a non uber counter to them. You can combat a squiggoth without necessarily needing a squiggoth of your own because your hero's deal so much damage to them.

However this is not true of ubers that are vehicles. Most commanders in general do very very paltry damage to vehicle high armor class. This means that whilst you can counter a bloodthirster without needing a thirster of your own, its much much harder to counter a landraider, or baneblade, or monolith without your uber because you no longer have the solid hard counter of a high damage dealing hero.

Quite frankly I think its much too hard and it puts some races at an unfair disadvantage. Speaking clearly, all heros except the eldar heroes do exceptional damage to daemon high. About 1/3 to 1/4 of heroes do even marginal damage to vehicle high, which is unfair as those races fielding vehicle ubers will have their ubers be unseasonably hard to counter.

Essentially I propose that all the non damage dealing heros get their vehicle high damage raised substantially so that all ubers are equally counterable by heros.

On a final note, someone may contest that vehicle ubers do have a weakness in that AV can bring them down, but personally I don't think that compensates. I mean an FC by himself can do 170 dps in melee with a bloodthirster and its fair to say that its equally balanced for 5 SM tacs all with missiles to only deal 75 dps at range to the baneblade? Its screwed up not only from a damage perspective but also from a defense perspective. Ubers fight back. In the thirster v FC fight, the FC will deal 4x more damage than he receives. In the baneblade or landraider v Hmed infantry fight, in general, the baneblade/landraider will deal nearly double back what it is receiving from even the best AV units in the game. Clearly daemon ubers are at a disadvantage and vehicle ubers at a clear advantage and this needs to be addressed. All heros, not just chaos and a few select heros here and there, need to have the ability to counter the 3 vehicle ubers.

[KotCR]

Yep...also bear in mind the repairability of vehicle ubers compared to the non-repairability of all but one daemon uber.
I'm with SubakuGaara here for the most part...
I'll post some DPS figures in a sec so you can see for yourself the disparity without having to browse through the wiki yourself.

EDIT: Considering the point in the game at which ubers tend to come out, all heroes will be measured as being fully upgraded.
Of course we are considering melee damage, not ranged damage, which AFAIK will always be inferior to the heroes melee damage against ubers (except for the TC).


--- Orks---
BIG MEK
Daemon High: 234.9
Vehicle High: 23.2

WARBOSS:
Daemon High: 188.3
Vehicle High: 188.3

MEGA ARMOURED NOBZ (Full Squad):
Daemon High: 470
Vehicle High: 46.4

--- Space Marines---
FORCE COMMANDER
Daemon High: 214.6
Vehicle High: 107.3

CHAPLAIN:
Daemon High: 93.6
Vehicle High: 18.5

LIBRARIAN:
Daemon High: 134
Vehicle High: 134

GREY KNIGHTS (Full Squad):
(Not a commander unit per-say, but their daemon_high DPS is highly notable)
Daemon High: 600
Vehicle High: 90


--- Chaos Space Marines---
CHAOS LORD
Daemon High: 234.8
Vehicle High: 234.8
(Possible +50% bonus temporarily from his ability, which you can add yourself if you want to count that, aswell as another possible 40% from an attached Aspiring Champion...not sure if it stacks...as to why he's the sole hero that rips through vehicle_high so quickly)
Cannot co-exist with Daemon Prince.

CHAOS SORCEROR
Daemon High: 165.6
Vehicle High: 165.6

DAEMON PRINCE
Daemon High: 109.7
Vehicle High: 109.7
(He can also use the +50% that the Chaos Lord has, but no possible +40% from an Aspiring Champion, and as you can see, the Daemon Prince's damage is greatly inferior to that of the Chaos Lord)
Cannot co-exist with Chaos Lord.


--- Eldar---
FARSEER
Daemon High: 89.8
Vehicle High: 89.8

HARLEQUIN (individual) (max allowed 3)
Daemon High: 0
Vehicle High: 4.5
Can't use the Kiss against either uber type armour, AFAIK.

SEER COUNCIL (Full Squad)
Daemon High: 167.4
Vehicle High: 72

--- Tau---
TAU COMMANDER
(No melee here, so ranged figures are used instead)
Daemon High: 73.5
Vehicle High: 58.7

ETHEREAL
(Now you understand why Tau's uber beats all others one on one)
Daemon High: 2.5
Vehicle High: 2.7

GREATER KNARLOC
(Worth mentioning because it's role literally seems to be only countering other ubers)
Daemon High: 245
Vehicle High: 280

Despite using the hero UI, VESPIDS really aren't worth mentioning here (it's about 10 dps for a full squad).

--- Imperial Guard---
COMMAND SQUAD (full Priests, optimized for uber hunting, Priest bonuses included)
Daemon High: 179.4
Vehicle High: 178.8

VINDICARE ASSASSIN (Ranged)
Daemon High: 68.6
Vehicle High: 20.6
VINDICARE ASSASSIN w/Scope (Ranged):
Daemon High: 137.1
Vehicle High: 41.4

PRIEST (Individual, not the Command Squad ones) (max allowed 3)
(Not a racial hero unit per-say, but worth mentioning)
Daemon High: 55.9
Vehicle High: 1.4

PSYKER (Individual, not the Command Squad ones) (max allowed 3)
(Not a racial hero unit per-say, but worth mentioning)
Daemon High: 15.5
Vehicle High: 15.5
Strip Soul: Ability will work against Daemon ubers, doing 510 damage. It is completely unusable against vehicle ubers.
The Command Squad's Psyker also has this ability, and it is identical to that of the individual Psyker's.


--- Necrons---
NECRON LORD
Daemon High: 114.6
Vehicle High: 114.6
Cannot co-exist with Nightbringer.

PARIAHS (Full Squad)
Daemon High: 66.4
Vehicle High: 66.4
I believe the cumulating speed -5% and health -30 bonus per hit decrease also affects ubers, somebody would have to double check.

NIGHTBRINGER
Daemon High: 375
Vehicle High: 375
Cannot co-exist with Necron Lord.

LORD DESTROYER (individual) (max allowed 2)
Daemon High: 114.6
Vehicle High: 114.6

PHEW.

There's some numbers for you...but as you can see in quite a few cases vehicle_high armour is at quite a large advantage over daemon_high armour.

It seems to be far less prominent around the races that were made for Dark Crusade or had a major reworking to their commander units with Dark Crusade, which may let you know what the designer's intentions were.

The problem mostly affects Space Marines', Orks', Eldar's and Imperial Guard's abilities to counter vehicle based ubers with heroes (not neccessarily their ability to counter vehicle ubers overall, however), or indeed if you see it another way, their proficiency in dealing with daemon ubers.

EDIT2: Added spoilers to make it less of a big clump of words.
EDIT3: Just noted that the Assassin's DPS figures were for his ranged, not his melee...even though I know it was a given, despite what I said at the start.
EDIT4: Added Lord Destroyer, didn't realise he had the exact same weapon as the Necron Lord, I always thought he had a toned-down version :wtf: ...looking at some responses, looks like some people were aware of this already.

[Hawillis]

Ah but those with poor veh.high damage might have stuns. eg. emp grendaes. Vehicles have other weaknesses!

A good tau permastuns the baneblade. A good ork uses nobz with klaws.

So whilst I agree on the surface, its not as easy as that IMO!

[Vytae]

Vehicle Ubers are clunkier,and prone to being disabled. That Bloodthirster might be a generalist,but hes mobile,hard to kill and cant be stunned,disabled or outright killed down by a tier 0 unit.

Vehicle ubers are far far more prone to death then others. Not to mention AV squads by that time are plentiful.

Remeber heros are generally alot easier,faster and cheaper to get then Relic Vehicles.

[DeafMute]

Pariahs do take away uber health.
Happened whilst I was using the BT and BB.

As for this thread.
Novel course. Interesting even.
But as you know.
No one is listening.

However. we, the community care. so chat away!

[a1ph4riu5]

Vehicle Ubers are clunkier,and prone to being disabled. That Bloodthirster might be a generalist,but hes mobile,hard to kill and cant be stunned,disabled or outright killed down by a tier 0 unit.

Though amusingly, he can be Frag Grenaded/Chained/Entangled etc.

[Spekkio]

My stealthsuits, hammerheads, and broadsides laugh at vehicle ubers. Mark target for max effect.

Chaos chews through daemon ubers like nothing with over 500 dps between their two commanders. Tau chews through vehicle ubers like nothing through stun + insane AV firepower. I suppose they could've made it so that each race had a more even solution to both.

Btw, you can't justify lower vehicle uber damage by saying they are "clunkier" or that you "can use av on them (except in the case of Tau since it's uber AV)," since vehicle ubers can shoot. This is a huge advantage over non-vehicle ubers.

[magicalcarpet]

I can categorically state that I have NEVER seen a 4x Priest CS. It's one of those things I always vow to do one game but never remember to..

[Vytae]

4 priest CS is fairly useless,due to the fact your CS loses detection. Not to mention it makes you much more vulnerable to other vehicle ubers.

Didnt know Monster ubers could be fragged lol. But in the case of the Bloodthirster,i assume he can flap is way out of entanglement and chains and such like every other damn jump capable unit.

And yes,Clunkier is a viable reason for changing or not changing combat stats. The Gnarloc and Squiggoth for example. Their effectiveness is HIGHLY dependant on their mobility.

[The_Guardman]

Both 16.9

IIRC the CotMS still work vs. uber vehicle.

Also the Tau Comm mine can slow down ubers.

The Necron Lord can be equipped for a decent deal of uber-hunting, this mean philactery, lightiningfield and an extra one of your taste.

[magicalcarpet]

Soloing Squiggoths even.

[Makenshi]

@KotCR

Your list is proof enough that, once more, Chaos and Necrons have the edge over the other races. So I vote in favor of SubakuGaara's statement that we have one more imba, and that this should be adressed, if not in a patch, than in DoW 2 or some mod.

[Energizer Bunny]

Agreed. Not really an issue in competitive play but still another one to add to the long list titled 'Daft stuff that will sadly never get fixed unless you care enough to mod it in which case get out more'

[4Servant]

assasin is good at killing deamons is stats seem low but keep in mind he has the same range as a WW.

[SubakuGaara]

so everyone understands this thread? daemon ubers can be killed by everyone. vehicle ubers can only be killed by a few select heros and instead you have to use AV units. Yet AV units are easily killed by vehicles while daemons struggle to kill commanders. Plus AV units tend to really really expensive too, while commanders for the most part are cheap. It doesn't really make sense.

Solution:
Buff all the commanders that don't do decent damage so they do decent damage. Of course you have to compensate for the AV units in the game as well, but the general idea is its ridiculous that a big mek only does 20 something dps to a monolith, but 234 dps to a bloodthirster. Whats the difference? they're both freaking ubers...

[Spekkio]

so everyone understands this thread? daemon ubers can be killed by everyone. Actually, the only way for Tau to compete with a daemon uber is to make the gnarloc.

[SubakuGaara]

Tau is somewhat of an exception, though I think with mark target you can get your TC to do some pretty decent damage from a distance which means its constantly delivered and easy to setup, unlike a chaos lord who has to charge in. Plus there are snares and tau typically gets to t4 faster than others seeing as their t3 is lackluster and tau generally has little drive to stay there... but anyway yes an exception in that their t3 doesn't handle t4 ubers very well at all...

[Hawillis]

Luckily tau can strip you of your relics.

[KotCR]

assasin is good at killing deamons is stats seem low but keep in mind he has the same range as a WW.
Yeah he's perfectly fine against Krootox though (daemon_med), as he does roughly twice as much DPS to them compared to his daemon_high damage at range, and can even thwrock them one in melee, whereas his melee damage is completely useless against daemon_high (1 DPS).


I can categorically state that I have NEVER seen a 4x Priest CS

4 priest CS is fairly useless,
Disagree that it's useless. I've used it as an early anti-vehicle solution in T2, aswell as of course an anti-Killa Kan solution in T2 before.

Come T3, your Command Squad will never be fighting alone anyway, so you don't need a Pysker in it for detection, you can just stick one in one of your infantry squads (or even keep him around solo behind your lines or in a Chimmie if you need him).
I can see how nuking an uber for 2000 damage with Strip Souls on a full Psyker Command Squad could be appealing though.

[Vytae]

I get the feeling you don't play IG much KoTCR.

Any IG player worth there salt has their CS in tier 4. Its damn near required. Shutting down Monoliths,Landraiders and other tier 4 heavies from behind your t4 heavies is INVALUABLE. Its on of the main reasons IG can compete (otherwise Landraider and laser preds can often kill a baneblade unsupported while the BB has its own army).

Having solo psykers running around is costly,and not nearly as versatile as single highly protected squad that can be immune to fire and call down disrupting strikes.

Meanwhile using 4 priest CS as AV is....costly good for demo work,and anti-hero but thats about it.

And as stated Before Veh ubers DONT need another counter in the form of heros. Between AV,disablement and Tier 4 heavies there's plenty of choices of counters.

[KotCR]

Hah, no I haven't played I.G. much since WA :).
But their T1 to T2 hasn't changed a whole lot...and of course in WA most games ended in T2, so 4x Priest Command Squads were a handy thing to be had.

But saying that I don't see T4 much in DC either, most games end in T3...
(Or T1, depending on the matchup)

[Warp Holder]

HARLEQUIN (individual) (max allowed 3)
Daemon High: 0
Vehicle High: 4.5
Can't use the Kiss against either uber type armour, AFAIK.

0 damage? There's a mistake there. Even the grot knife does more dmg than that to Daemon_High!



TAU COMMANDER
(No melee here, so ranged figures are used instead)
Daemon High: 73.5
Vehicle High: 58.7

Don't forget the TC can change weapons. Which one are you referring to?


Actually, the only way for Tau to compete with a daemon uber is to make the gnarloc.

Krootoxes and smart use of Hammerheads might slow the daemon.

[Melonplant]

I've never had a hero try to take down my vehicle uber. While it's cute to think that that is their role (to counter relic units) it has only been assumed.

It is rightfully assumed that they take down daemon ubers in, what, 3 cases? Farseer sucks against all ubers, Tau commander sucks vs daemon ubers, Chaos lord owns against all ubers, force commander is MEDIOCRE against vehicle ubers. The inconsistency is purposeful and intended. Also HARDLY worth mentioning.

Everyone has decent solutions against relic units. Those that have hard to use counters have it that way for micro reasons. I guess people want IG players to COTMS chain vehicle ubers if they don't have their own. Or for eldar players to field those rarely-seen-but-if-they-are-run-and-die-and-lose death machines from the webway gates.

I think this is interesting to discuss, but does not at all belong in the balance section. I have yet to see a persom come in here screaming about losing because his FC did too little damage to the bane blade.

Heroes are not necessarily anti-relics. I said it.

[martyr3810]

so everyone understands this thread? daemon ubers can be killed by everyone. vehicle ubers can only be killed by a few select heros and instead you have to use AV units. Yet AV units are easily killed by vehicles while daemons struggle to kill commanders. Plus AV units tend to really really expensive too, while commanders for the most part are cheap. It doesn't really make sense.

Solution:
Buff all the commanders that don't do decent damage so they do decent damage. Of course you have to compensate for the AV units in the game as well, but the general idea is its ridiculous that a big mek only does 20 something dps to a monolith, but 234 dps to a bloodthirster. Whats the difference? they're both freaking ubers...

No way... not all Heroes are intended as anti-ubers. SM Heroes have the benefit of having GREAT support skills (OB, Word of the Emperor, Etc)... Ork heroes can detect... really only Chaos and Necron have murder machines for Heroes - and since the Necrons only get ONE hero, he deserves to have good stats as well as have some good skills. The CL doesn't HAVE any use besides straight up murder machined goodness - and we have to choose between him and the Daemon Prince too remember.

Just because the commanders can't do it... doesn't mean the rest of the army can't. For god's sake, why would you need daemon killer on commanders when you have grey knights??? Just because your commander isn't designed to take Ubers doesn't mean the rest of the army isn't. Anti-uber isn't a role designated solely to Commanders.

Edit:


Heroes are not necessarily anti-relics. I said it.

Give the man a prize! Bold this for everyone else thats listening.

[Chris]

If anything I find the complete opposite of this thread to be true; Daemon_high units are harder to kill than vehicle_high, because vehicle ubers are vulnerable to more stun attacks.

[SubakuGaara]

Vehicle ubers do way more damage to commanders than daemon ubers. Baneblade does like 150 dps plus so much knockback that even if you had a high damage commander, he'd never get close. Stuns yes... but still stuns have cooldowns and at best you'll get 2 in before the vehicle is free... and daemons are still stunnable. Tac/CSM grenades, chains, and other simlar spells can bidn them too..

[Makenshi]

daemons are still stunnable. Tac/CSM grenades, chains, and other simlar spells can bind them too..

WTF! Imba every-60-seconds chains bind ubbers?! LOL! Hope it's not for more than 3 seconds, like Tac/CSM grenades... I'm getting so frustrated with the OP'ness of Chaos...

[SubakuGaara]

oh get over it.

[Makenshi]

It's not easy man, with all the cool SM quotes and Imperial stuff :D

[KotCR]

Don't forget the TC can change weapons. Which one are you referring to?
As mentioned before the list of DPS, all heroes are taken as fully upgraded.
That means it's the combined DPS of all the Tau Commander's ranged weapons once he is fully upgraded (yes, the fact that some of his weapons are replaced has been taken into account with the figures).