DC [1.2] Crisis Suits

[Arcinatus]

crisis suits. definately my favorite tau unit in the game. problem is, there seems to be a few problems with it. yes, i know alot of these have been talked about, but after using the search function, those were all pre-patch threads, so i started this one. ok heres a list of what i believe should be addressed for the crisis suit in the future.

weapon upgrades:
-be able to choose which arm gets which weapon upgrade, so u can have it be all Anti infantry, anti vehicle, or a mix (like it is now)
- increase the damage the burst cannon does to heavy infantry units (it doesnt seem to do much, although it could just be me.....)
-increase armor penetration of the missile pods to vehicle_medium and vehicle _heavy

i also believe they should have more health and / or armor, cause they really dont last long (well, depends on the situation of course, but in general, they dont)

i feel these changes would make more tau players think getting crisis suits instead of those godly FW upgrades would actually be a good idea tactically, not just for the "cool factor" that surrounds the CS's

thats all

[Hawillis]

1. Dont agree. ATM its close range/long range. 4 arms is too hard to balance anyhow.
2. Disagree. Flamer is good enough v infantry. People say nerf flamers but I say only nerf flamer building damage.
3.Agree missile pod suxs.

4. Dont agree. Health regen at 4/second but other than that I dont care.

IMO tau montka T3 needs some other options, not a senseless buff of crisis.
As I am in SS beta, I will push for this:
ethreal dives hp bonus as a % of hp.
Montka has access to some upgrades like kayun. Dont have to be the same/can be more expensive but there must be something else to get other than 3 crisis, then get T4.

[Arcinatus]

i never said anything about flamers, i said about the burst cannon.
and i didnt want 4 ARMS!! i would just want to be able to choose what weapons are replaced by what

and the upgrades / etheral things u mentioned sound good.

[holyknight]

lol four arms, what is it, a mutated crisis suit?
What I think it needs is to be able to reinforce two droids. Just like when you buy the case of it.
Because droids are cool and Crisis suits will need some help.

[Warp Holder]

Shield drones? Good idea, there.

[nicoca]

Drones are a great idea.

What about being able to attach repair drones or something or maybe a spotter drone?

[ChienAboyeur]

Yes, shield drones like in the TT.
Would be cool to jump in crisis in the fray, activate the shield and jump back when used up.

[Zany Reaper]

Arcinatus - Ok, my replies here:

1) Having both weapon upgrades (i.e - missile pod & flamer) would be easily do-able at the moment. Another extension (that Relic would probably NEVER consider at all as it's a weapon upgrade) is to give the crisis suit a plasma rifle upgrade that is useful ONLY against heavy infantry & monsterous creatures, whereas the burst cannon & flamer would be for all-rounders.
The plasma rifle however might not be necessary with the flamer already efficient at killing even heavy infantry rather quickly.

2) I don't think that the burst cannon needs to be buffed in any real way, but I do think it does a bit too much damage to vehicles for what it is, especially with that missile launcher upgrade (which is currently almost pointless at the moment).

3) At the very least this should be increased by 50%. However, I'm more in favour of just halving the reload time. Missile pods are definately not supposed to be slow-firing weapons. This isn't very tau-like to have a slow-firing missile pod, especially if it's almost never used.
The flamer also really needs its building damage reduced to that of what it does to vehicles. The Missile launcher should be the building destroyer instead, maybe doing an additional 50% extra damage to buildings as well as the reload time buff.

4) Nah, they're great with their 2500HP & heavy_high armour. I'm concerned however with the fact that a Harlequin can instantly destroy one with one shot of the harlequin's kiss ability. This can be very troubling, even if the crisis suit is shit-cheap (I don't understand why it's so cheap though).

5) Fire warriors & Crisis suits currently have pretty different roles. Fire warriors are usually considered as a (weak) support option by Tier 3, whereas Crisis suits are close-range killers.
Fire warriors need shield drones as by the time your opponents are in Tier 3, they'll have some pretty decent stuff to take large amounts of fire warriors down.
Fire warriors in my mind are pretty weak for their cost & only truely scale well in Kau'yon due to the range & armour researches, which are well worth getting. In Mont'ka, Fire warriors should probably get another damage buff upgrade instead.

[Hawillis]

Ah I see the clarification needed lol. By 4 arms I meant 4 combinations of arms.
By talk about flamers, I said that we already have enough AI. IMO its the poorness of the missile pod that makes the other option rubbish. Although a buff to burst and missile (but smaller ones) could be a better method I suppose.

Shield drones is a good idea.

Yeah I would not mind a small increase in price.

Yeah FW need damage buff. Mark target is their damage buff in T2, but as we al know, T3>>>>>>>>>>>>T2 its just sick. No way FW can compete against the likes of PSM + oblivies.

[Zany Reaper]

Ah! So NOW someone is agreeing to my suggestion of buffing the damage of fire warriors! Finally!

Additionally, don't Tau tech too quickly into Tier 3? They need no other requirements than Tier 2 & a bit of extra credits.
The burst cannon on the crisis suit doesn't need buffing either. The Flamer replaces the burst cannon, therefore buffing that weapon is almost irrelevant if the vastly superior flamer replaces it anyhow.

Why is this thread not in the balance discussion forum either? It's formatted quite like one (though not completely).

[chiapet874]

I've always felt that Crisis suits were a bit iffy. To me, they died way too fast. 3 crisis suits take up 6 pop, but when they jump into the fray, they get pwned instantly. So im fine with everything else, but give them more armor/life.

edit: I feel i have to explain how they get "pwned". Its too easy to swarm the crisis suits in a big battle. I basically only use them for fluff in skimirish.

[Spekkio]

Buff burst cannon to do ~100 dps to inf_heavy_med, ~80 dps to inf_heavy_high, nerf flamer hard to buldings, nerf its damage to infantry by 50%. Give flamer 30 degree AoE cone. The flamer should not be a no-brainer "click me if you want to kill infantry better" upgrade. It should do heavy morale damage like other flamers, and the fact that it can only hit one person at a time inhibits that.

Buff missile building/vehicle damage a lot so there's a reason to spend the resources on it rather than leaving the fusion blaster on it. Keep in mind that the missiles do almost no damage to infantry, hence the reason I say to buff the burst cannon.

Oh, and make their health regen 3 rather than 1.

[Hawillis]

Sounds good spekkio.
To other people. Sure crisis die, but they are cheap enough and can hit somethings hard.

In t3 montka I will build 2nd rax to pump crisis out faster to try to counteract this.

Edit: yes I was agreeing with your weapons changes Spekkio.
Now I have read your full changes and possibly think that you are crazy ^^.

[Mgee]

I like the idea of buffing burst cannon and missle piercing, but the reason the flamer does so much damage, is that itll break most sqauds in less than 5 secs

I think the flamer is fine for the most part, if the crisis suit did indeed get a health or armor buff of some sort, than I'd say nerf the flamer, as it certainly fills its role for killing swarms fast

my fav tactic against chaos HB swarms is lining up the FW, hittin the shields and as soon as chaos opens up, jump in the crisis suits and start laughing maniacally

combining diff combos of weps would be really weird to balance, as a burst cannon and flamer would destroy most inf squads outright and last thing a crisis suit needs is another nerf, tho a price nerf (or buff depending how ya look at it XD) wouldnt be outta the question

and increasing hard cap to 4 wouldnt be outta the question either >.>

[Spekkio]

Hawillis, I don't quite get your post. Are you agreeing with me or what?

Mgee, my issue with the flamer is that it doesn't behave like a flamer. It behaves like a 15 range burst cannon that has exceptional morale damage (like it matters against anyone in tier 3 other than Eldar and Tau anyway). I would like to see the CS flamer actually act like a flamer.

The problem with Tau is that they have to re-work pathfinders. PF nearly double the DPS output of all tau shooty units, so Relic decided to balance units around pathfinders. FWs do excellent damage in tier 2 with mark target, as do drone squads, skyray normal missiles, the TC, SSs, etc. If you add mark target's effect to CS, they're actually quite good at AI. Thing is, each squad you wish to mark requires a 150/40 investment in fragile units that die in .2 seconds of focus-fire unless you intend to somehow only fight one squad every 30 seconds. That means building multiple squads and reinforcing them, which means even more ludicrous investment just to mark a couple of squads. If you want to assume the standard "3 squad of main infantry" format, you would need 3x PF squads to mark each squad in a single battle. That's 450/120 without any reinforcements, which you will need since PFs get focused-fired by any good player. Oh, and pathfinders can't actually kill anything themselves, either, yet they eat up 2 pop/each.

Balancing Tau's units around this is absurd. This is not a cost-effective way of killing infantry by any means. While you could say that the cost of HBs are considerably more req (but less power if you reinforce the PFs), consider the fact that the cost of a FW is 20 more req than a tac already, and PFs take up 2 inf pop. Unlike Dark Reapers, a shooty-specialist analogue, we're paying extra money for a unit that doesn't have superior damage by itself.

So yea, the way PF's and Mark Target works needs to be looked at so that Tau late t2/t3 can be balanced in a normal way. It's almost as bad as IG priests. Some combination of squad tax, lowering the damage increase, and making PF carbines do more than single-digit DPS would be a start. I also wouldn't mind a cost increase to Crisis Suits so long as they can actually stand to fight other tier 3 units by themselves with mark target putting them over the top. This way mark target becomes a bonus and not a necessity.

Sadly, Tau's imba tier 1 is the only thing that keeps them in the game. The fact that they can apply a lot of pressure early and keep it up lets them build a superior eco to every other race except crons automatically. If TC + Vespids were fixed, you would certainly start to see Tau's gaping holes in mid tier 2 onward.

Looking back at the numbers again and taking cost into account (which I didn't before), here's what I would do:

-PF mark target gives 25% damage bonus. Either increase PF carbine rifle to do 12 DPS to inf_heavy_med, or put a squad tax on PFs so that you can reinforce for the slow effect to work properly.
-Either increase cost of each CS to 360/80 and double all their stats, or make each squad reinforceable to 3 members each and cut stats of each CS member slightly.
-Apply above suggested flamer and missile pod fixes.

This would bring Tau's t3 cost and damage on par with other t3 elites. Tau has no use for cheap tier 3 elites that are outperformed by all other elites except in the category of base bashing. It's great that you can quick-tech to tier 4, but if your opponent reaches tier 3 at the same time you do, then what's going to hold off their elites?

[Arcinatus]

hmmm, would shield drones just be hovering around the suit? (i didnt know drones could use jump packs..lol)
i think tau have a had time dealing with elite squads (especially CC ones..) thats why i think crisis suits should have more durability, to keep those squads in line.

[Shaso Vrall]

I think Spekkio is right on the money.
-Make the flamer a flamer instead of an uber death wand
-Make the missile launcher a viable choice

Also I dont think the sheild drones are that great at all really, instead of trying to balance CS's with another upgrade I think it would be much better to just get their current option worked out and balanced.

[ChienAboyeur]

Ummmmmmm, well, going montka is supposed to be the way of the killing blow. As such, it means it must be quick. In this regard, it means fast access to last tier to get the most powerful units available and put the last nail to the coffin.

Adding other options to be researched will delay this access (and will be contrary to the spirit of montka). Crisis suits currently fulfill their parts well: they are highly disruptive, do not last long, can not inflict determinative dommage. The right unit if you stick to the spirit of what a dealing a finishing blow is supposed to be.

More and more, this game is pressured like his TT counterpart: players reclaiming that their favourite army looks like opponent armies with this or that specific opponent ability being included in their army. Not sure it will render the game easier to balance.

[jpsc949]

Crisis suits should just be better out of the box, their starting weapons should be the best choice for anti-infantry not flamers.

[Fort]

@Arcinatus: drone can jump in tau singleplayer the TC can get drones to guard him(as a wargear) and they jump with him.

The thing with crisis is that they shouldn't be a single unit because they could die very easily that way, as harly's kiss and IG assasin are very good against him, instead i suggest making they a bit smaller and have they in a squad of 3.

['Mad' Larkin]

A squad of 3 would be good considering you can take squads of up to 3 crisis suits in the TT game. But then you could re-enforce crisis suit teams, and that is a little bit unfair....

Well...until you remember that GK and Termies can re-enforce too.

[Kissblade]

Keep in mind the pros and cons of that. The pro is Crisis suits can do just as much dmg at 2hp and sitting in the back as they would at full str. Personally I like Crisis Suits, they don't have the OMFGBBQPWNAGE feel of some other T3 but the jump pack, flamer and all around utility makes them very nice.

[Jaimas]

Totally agree with Spekkio.
Signed.

[Melissia]

For once, I agree with Spekkio, as well.

Make both choices viable... not just one.

['Mad' Larkin]

Maybe the Tau should be given Markerlights as an upgrade to ALL their units? In the TT you can take markerlights on CS, Pathfinders, Shas'ui, and Shas'vre (sergeants). Kroot and FW don't need markerlights, but it should be an upgrade that would then come with the squad sergeants, the Shas'vre. That would make a very effective way to scale the damage of Tau without forcing them to spend alot of resources on "I'm gonna be dead in a minute" units. Maybe make it a t3 upgrade to the Shas'vre and Shas'ui?

Either way the TC should really really have markerlights, he IS the TC.

[Zany Reaper]

"Maybe the Tau should be given Markerlights as an upgrade to ALL their units?"

Then what purpose would Pathfinders serve?

['Mad' Larkin]

Sighting? Just having them as the only unit to have markerlights, no matter how against Tau fluff and Tau rights that is, just so that people use them is a waste.

These are the Tau, their tech is awesome. Of COURSE Crisis Suits have Markerlights, well, at least the Crisis Suit Shas'vre have them. But that would mean making CS a sqaud, which really wouldn't be a bad idea.

[Zany Reaper]

The entire idea is to have pathfinders as a support unit. Currently they even have trouble being one of those. Crisis suits with markerlights would worsen the problem & make pathfinders almost completely useless (although I agree with you in that I like to use them as spotters for skyrays to fire at things from).

[Slow_Runner]

Hmm.. I could have sworn I moved this to Balance Issues earlier.

Oh well, it's there now.

[Zany Reaper]

Finally, this thread has been in the wrong forum for a while!

Anyhow, with the most pressing issue of the flamers - if it were to be given an arc of 10 degrees (either side of the origin, giving a 20 degree sector), would quartering the morale & base damage be feasible?
Me thinks that if so, then it'd be far more useful against large squads, especially in the case of imbalanced instant-killing god-tough Khorne bezerkers.

[generallchaos]

crisis suits already own berzerkers -.- Add a marker light and crisis suits will toast almost everything very fast

[Arcinatus]

so far i'm really liking the idea of giving the flamer a cone area of effect, like other flamers, plus increasing the armor piercing of the missile launcher and damage of the burst cannon.... would make the missile launcher actually useful.

[Guardian X]

Am I the only one who thinks Crisis suits were a questionably designed unit and need a more radical redesign to become useful? Let me spell it out for the Relic Balance team in this post.

To wit, here are the problems with the Crisis Suit:

-They are of somewhat questionable use. While they may be cheaper than Firewarriors, they cannot hold territory. They fall under a concentrated onslaught, and their only real countermeasure then is to jump, which means they cannot hold territory without a terrain advantage (such as firing from a cliff melee troops cannot get to. This problem is only compounded by the points below.

-They cannot be repaired, and regenerate far too slowly. This severely limits their utility as raiding parties (how can you distract somebody for a long enough time with a machine that is nearly dead?), and in general--because they cannot be repaired, it is impossible to get them back to full usefulness (and full hitpoints) in a timely manner given the frenetic nature of multiplayer combat.

-Their morale is a bit out of place. While Relic may have made this as a balancing measure, their survivability is so low they are far more likely to be destroyed than lose morale, unless the enemy employs sniper units against them, which would be more effective against troops, as would flamers.

-Their lack of weapons choices (as described in previous posts, the missile launcher is sadly lacking in utility).

To fully address these issues, I would suggest the following measures:

-Move the Crisis Suit to be built at a vehicle beacon. The Tau are sorely lacking in an anti-vehicle vehicle for the Mont'ka path, without having to go through the expense of "Teachings of Mont'ka."

-Give them vehicle (probably vehicle_low to emphasize their raiding nature and second-line nature) armour, and make them repairable, which would by itself make them vastly more useful. Another way would be to preserve their heavy infantry armour but still make them repairable in order to preserve their vulnerability to melee infantry.

-Remove their morale (the reasons for this are outlined above).

-Make the missile launcher more viable, and fix the flamer.

-Give them research at the Mont'ka command post to increase their health and/or armour class, or give them access to drones to increase their survivability. The only difference is that if the Crisis suit is killed, the squad will still be there, but you now have to pay the full initial price to bring the suit back.

All of this, included with a cost/buildtime increase would fairly make these guys much more useful like Space Marine Dreadnoughts or Eldar Wraithlords, minus the CC ability. I would highly recommend this solution for Relic to implement.

[Spekkio]

Guardian, my solution listed earlier addresses all those issues except for morale. 2x cost for 2x the stats, 3 hp/s regen. Then modify the flamer to make it into an actual flamer (cone of effect, much lower damage, much lower damage to buildings), increase the damage of missile pods, and you're good to go.

[Arcinatus]

hmm heres an idea. have teachings of mont'ka increase damage / armor. i dont know how much, i'll leave to people are good with numbers, in regards to DC though. (AND PLEASE INCREASE DAMAGE OF THE MISSILE LAUNCHER...thank you.)

[SubakuGaara]

crisis are stupid. regardless of the weapon set you choose, the total dps numbers for any lone target is relatively the same. If you choose flamer+weapon a (the name escapes me) the total dps for any target is close to missilepod+weapon b. Go look for yourself if you don't believe me. Its a pseudochoice. Like when your mother asks you to take out the trash. She's not asking you, even if she ends on one of those high notes that questions generally end on. Its the same thing here. Regardless of which you pick, the total dps is the same and so are you really choosing? Whatever.

Crisis suck. They should just be little 2 man units and should actually have a decent choice of this or that. Fix the jump, get rid of the morale damage they receive, and nerf vespids (just thought I'd throw that in there). I mean right now the only real reason to go montka is the hammerhead cause hounds absolutely pwn crisis suits.

[Guardian X]

-Spekkio,

I agreed with most of your solution, except I don't believe they needed a boost right out of the factory. I would rather they be vehicles and/or repairable so they take up resources when they are repaired as needed.

Personally, I would like most non-uber units either to be reinforceable or repairable, so I can get them combat ready again as I have the resources, rather than waiting around for them to regenerate so slowly.

[KotCR]

Hmm, maybe the Tau should get some sort of health regeneration ability or something, like Eldar have with their webways, CSM with their taint, SM with their Apothecaries, Imperial Guard with their Commies, Orks with their Mad Docs.

Nothing that would help them in battle though...something like a regen bonus for standing near one of their T2/T3 structures or something might work.

[Spekkio]

crisis are stupid. regardless of the weapon set you choose, the total dps numbers for any lone target is relatively the same. If you choose flamer+weapon a (the name escapes me) the total dps for any target is close to missilepod+weapon b. Go look for yourself if you don't believe me. Its a pseudochoice. Like when your mother asks you to take out the trash. She's not asking you, even if she ends on one of those high notes that questions generally end on. Its the same thing here. Regardless of which you pick, the total dps is the same and so are you really choosing? Whatever.
You have no idea what you're talking about. The flamer does almost twice the damage to inf_heavy_med and inf_heavy_high than the burst cannon which it replaces, and the fusion blaster (your "weapon a") does 10 dps. The flamer also has a firing arc of 0 degrees, meaning it shoots in a straight line like any other normal weapon. The missile pods, which replace the fusion blaster, do 7 dps to inf_heavy_med, and are paired with the burst cannon that does ~80 dps to inf_heavy_med and 60 dps to inf_heavy_high.

Then throw in the flamer's vastly superior morale and building damage to build_low, and equivelent building damage as missiles to build_med, and there is a clear choice on what to choose for the CS weapon loadout.

I would honestly rather have the weapon replacements switched around. While the "long vs. short range" thing is sound in theory, in reality you cannot target two different target types. That means that one of your weapons is almost always going to waste because it's firing on a target that it's not effective against (for example, in the flamer + fusion blaster configuration, the fusion blaster is firing on infantry and doing a meager 10 dps). Having a generalist CS that can be specialized through upgrades would be much more useful. Besides, it's not like a 30 range burst cannon can be called "long range" when paired with 50 range missile pods. However, most people tend to disagree with me.

[The_Guardman]

To me, the main issue is the 3 seconds setup before and after jumps, and the slow movement speed. It may see small things, but a faster jump will help doing hit-and-run strikes, and faster movement will help dancing. Note also that Crisis are suppose to use near-always the jets to move around, like ASM do, in fluff.

[fs_xyz]

I doubt if Crisis Suit changed into a squad will solve the problem...
Remember old Broadside ?
Solve the pathing problem or collision size first....

Healing ? Probably the Ethereal hold the key here....

[ImmortalChaos]

My long-standing ideals for crisis suits:

HP increases to ~3500.
Cost changed to 200/100.
Weapons standardized at 50/25.
Starts with no weapons.
Picks 2 of 4 different weapons, with no reaserch time.

Weapons do about 75 DPS to their perfered target- Long range varients do less, close range ones more. The flamer would also have an AoE.

[Spekkio]

That's far too little damage. A full oblit squad does ~360 dps to inf_heavy_med, and Chaos also gets PSMs. Tau ONLY gets CS in Mont'ka tier 3. They need to be able to put out comparable damage to other race's tier 3's.

Eldar, who only gets WS in tier 3, can put out upwards of 2,000 dps with 3 full squads.

Granted, WS and maxing out Oblits/PSM cost a lot more, but that's why I said to double the stats and double the cost. Also, if the burst cannon isn't buffed any further damage wise after that, it needs to have 35-40 range.

Cheap, inadequate units have no use in tier 3.

[ImmortalChaos]

Eh, 100 DPS could work. Remember that you can take 2 weapons, so thats an effective 200 DPS. 600 DPS of bouncing mayhem is a little intimidating, especailly when they are that much tougher, as well as specialized so they dont waste burst cannon shots on vehicles or fusion blaster on infantry.

This, IMO, should keep the "glass cannon" feel of tau whilst maintaining a unit that is worth the rather large investment.

3 suits would now cost 900/300, dish out ~600 dps and have a combined 10500 HP.

['Mad' Larkin]

In the TT the crisis suits are a pain in the ass. Jump over a hill, Shoot the missile pods, hide back behind the hill. You don't even get a chance to shoot them.

I know they toast things with that flamer...but really, like Spekkio said, it doesn't even act like a flamer. It acts like a fat burst cannon with less range and more morale dmg. Why can't Crisis suits be like the TC and just add weapons rather than replace?

[ImmortalChaos]

Or pick them all from scratch...

['Mad' Larkin]

Because if you picked them from scratch you would start with a unit that was completely useless until upgraded...which...Tau really really don't need.

[ImmortalChaos]

If you actually read my post I suggested the weapons would be like the NLs upgrades. Click twice and 2 weapons appear, bam.

['Mad' Larkin]

I suppose...But wouldn't having variants available be better? Have three different variants or the CS or something. One comes with Burst Cannon and Missile pod and then you can upgrade ranged weapons on it. One comes with a flamer and fusion blaster and can be upgraded with other close range weapons. And give one dual Burst Cannons. Dual Burst Cannons would rule.

[ImmortalChaos]

Well then it would count as "twin linked" and have to suck :p

Also, thats no different from I suggested at all, exapt its more work. You would buy a crisis suit, pick your favourite weapon combo and be off. 2 BC? sure.

[peturabo]

Crisis suits suck, they die so fast and do like no dmg to units anywhere near their Tier.
Only real any use for base bashing.

Buff Ai dmg, nerf build dmg on flamer.
& ffs reric make missile pods useful ;>

[black_whisperer]

lol I played against a Tau player and took down his Crisis suits in no time. Yeah, I agree with you that these things need to be buffed abit, just a bit, because they already EXCEL at mowing down heavy infantry like nothing.

[fuggles]

Is the missile pod similar to the TC one? I never realised how brutal that was until it knocks over your commander, and again, and again and again and again...

[Vytae]

Since i finally dropped Ig and played Tau,ive become somewhat addicted to Crisis suits. Ive come to realize that yes,they actually are ridiculously fragile,but they are ridiculously deadly to any infantry and buildings they get into range of. Considering how cheap they are (and how cheap your barracks are for that matter) i think their quite balanced. And damn fun to use. Only thing i would maybe buff is the annoying jetpack animation time (or make them immune to fire during) and give them a small regen as i believe they have none at the moment? .5 or 1 ps would be more then fine.

There combat stats,and costs are all balanced in relation to eachother. Tau don't need an awesome t3 because their t1/2 (and 4) is already pretty awesome.

Nothing like dropping 3 onto a karskin unit and torching it before they can hit fanaticism.
And what they do to an ork base its pure obscenity.

Obscenity i say.

[War-Reborn]

being cheap is an advantage, but only if you get similar quality for less, getting less quality for less is hardly an advantage

As for there regen value it's already 1 which on a unit with 2500hp is utterly worthless for the simple fact that a CS with 30% health will take around half an hour to heal, this is why commander units have 2hp sec basic regen and a whole host of ways to increase this, waystations, medics, DP upgrade he has 4 etc CS need a 3hp sec regen value just to be on par with a standard infantry sqaud in terms of speed of regen as a % of the sqauds health

[SpArTy]

I think they should get both weapons, buffing missile pods. There flamer damage is just good v all and i like it that way. If they had lower flamer damage but higher hp they would be pretty shit.

[The_Guardman]

There flamer damage is just good v all and i like it that way.
Not very constructive. I liked IG WA bugged armor, and knife rush, so keep it too... (not true, but good comparison).

[Apathetic]

Not very constructive. I liked IG WA bugged armor, and knife rush, so keep it too... (not true, but good comparison).No other race has to pick between ranged and melee T3 elites - term/a.term, psm/oblit, gitz/nobz, ws/seer council, ogryn/kasrkin, etc... If Relic wants to force Tau to make an irreversible strategic decision when they choose between the Mont'Ka and Kauyon Command Centers the very least they could do is make the T3 unit a significant unit able to at least stand up to their opposite number. Crisis suits should outshoot (glass cannon) or be equal hp/DPS for less cost.

[Arcinatus]

wow my thread is alive again, well, maybe we should just have them be able to upgrade ALL 4 weapons? but have less hp..i dunno..

[Vytae]

Crisis suits should outshoot (glass cannon) or be equal hp/DPS for less cost


Why? They DO outshoot everything. Get that flamer in close and GG shooty units. Their cost is perfect. you can get 3 of them for less then the cost of one priest/karskin unit and they will obliterate that karskin unit. With 2 jumps they dont have to engage anything they dont want too. And the Tau army unlike other armies is quite capable of dealing with other armies t3 units without their own. Which allows the crisis suits to rape bases while the main tau army delays the others t3s.

If your dumb enough to jump them into a middle of a giant army,thats bad play,not weak units. Crisis suits are not blunt force t3s,there surgicals use them as such.

And no other race can get t3 units that counter both range and melee in one jumpable unit.

[ChienAboyeur]

No other race has to pick between ranged and melee T3 elites - term/a.term, psm/oblit, gitz/nobz, ws/seer council, ogryn/kasrkin, etc... If Relic wants to force Tau to make an irreversible strategic decision when they choose between the Mont'Ka and Kauyon Command Centers the very least they could do is make the T3 unit a significant unit able to at least stand up to their opposite number. Crisis suits should outshoot (glass cannon) or be equal hp/DPS for less cost.

The strategic decision is dictated by the situation on the field:
Going Mont'ka means that you have the upper hand in terms of map control and a advantage you want to push up quickly.
Going Kauyon that the map control and the advantage is less and you want to slowly choke the opponent.

Currently, as many games won by Tau result from a large map control and a sizeable advantage at the end of tiers 2, Montk'a prevails (in number) over Kauyon.

In this regard, crisis suits are well designed. There is no aside research to do during the tiers 3, meaning an as fast as possible access to tiers 4 (and the real finishing blow the hammerhead)
Crisis suits do no sustain much fire but as any mobile tau unit, they must revolve around the FW static line.
Jumping 2 crisis from behind the FW lines right in the middle of a heavy concentration of enemy troops: crisis suits over.
Jumping the same 2 from behind one on each side of a heavy concentration of enemy troops: heavy disruption before crisis are over.

[KotCR]

And no other race can get t3 units that counter both range and melee in one jumpable unit.
See: Terminators, Obliterators. Vanilla DoW.

Too bad that got changed a long long time ago... :(

[The_Guardman]

you can get 3 of them for less then the cost of one priest/karskin unit and they will obliterate that karskin unit.
Movement speed + bigger range. Crisis are dramatically slow for a unit with freakin' jetpacks.

[War-Reborn]

well looking at the CS i do feel it needs a little love, just a little, but 2 things that should be added that i cant see causing any controversy are a HP regen rate of either 2 or 3 simply to bring it's regen rate into line, in terms of % health healed over time, into line with the basic, before medic's, waystation research etc of other infantry at tier 3, squads heal better because dmg in spread over many members, also 1hp a sec regen is fine if you have around 800hp, it's not so fine if you have 2500, it takes literally just over 20 mins to recover half your health if you almost dead, hell you can probably fit 2 games inside the time it takes to recover all it's health it's simply ridiculous, it used to be zero regen but relic increased it to 1 in 1.2 shows you just how much attention they were paying in that patch, but since a huge host of other things were also missed i cant say i'm surprised hopefull they'l make good on SS an all will be forgiven

second would be the abilty to choose which arm you upgrade so you can go for pure AV fusion blaster an missile, pure AI flamer/chain cannon or a mix, so you can better taylor the suit to your needs, that second one is mainly to give more strategic choice which is always a good thing in my book.

I agree with some of the other buffs aswell i think speckio makes some good points, but the above one mainly the health needs doing just to bring it into line with other units on a basic level, before you even get into the balance issue

[Chris]

What everyone always neglects to mention when complaining about tau units is that they have pathfinders that buff damage by 75% on an enemy target. If Crisis suits had superior firepower to other tier 3 units they'd be utterly ridiculous once markerlights got factored in.

[SpArTy]

What everyone always neglects to mention when complaining about tau units is that they have pathfinders that buff damage by 75% on an enemy target. If Crisis suits had superior firepower to other tier 3 units they'd be utterly ridiculous once markerlights got factored in.
They already do, used well :D

[War-Reborn]

What everyone always neglects to mention when complaining about tau units is that they have pathfinders that buff damage by 75% on an enemy target. If Crisis suits had superior firepower to other tier 3 units they'd be utterly ridiculous once markerlights got factored in.

It's already been stated that MT would need to be reduced in power, needing a second fragile squad thats only good for buffing the dmg of the first so it's on a par dps wise with other tier 3 is a fairly big handicap, in the heat of battle there's a lot to go wrong there, with pathfinders getting killed, being in the wrong place, ability already used etc

I see no reason why tau should be balanced around a MT abilty, that either seems to result in you doing insane dmg to your target or not enough

[Spekkio]

What everyone always neglects to mention when complaining about tau units is that they have pathfinders that buff damage by 75% on an enemy target. If Crisis suits had superior firepower to other tier 3 units they'd be utterly ridiculous once markerlights got factored in.
They should really change it so that mark target only affects FWs.

That, or PFs really need some sort of upgrades that can boost their damage and HPs to respectable levels in tier 3. Spending 140/40 on a squad to just run around and mark targets inbetween running away (or getting killed) in tier 3 just really isn't worth it.

Even if you did the latter, mark target gives way too much of a boost that results in the current situation: Tau shooty troops are relatively underwhelming without it, and omfg imba with it.

[KotCR]

Spending 140/40 on a squad to just run around and mark targets inbetween running away (or getting killed) in tier 3 just really isn't worth it.
Well, they also offer an insane sight radius and have detection, so it's not like they're only good for Mark Target, though generally that's the purpose they are used for.

Hmm, wanna make them scale?
How's about nerfing the stupidly imba SS, and then making it so Pathfinders get some sort of awesome anti-tank weapon in T3?

[Chris]

Tau shooty troops are relatively underwhelming without it, and omfg imba with it.


Underwhelming? OK so units like fire warriors might not put out the raw DPS of a 5 heavy bolter tac squad but I'd hardly call them underwhelming, especially since they don't require heavy weapon upgrades, attached heroes etc. to perform, just 1-2 armoury upgrades. Even with shitty HP and poor LOS, I'd say Tau units are still less hassle to manage than most infantry.

[Apathetic]

Even with shitty HP and poor LOS, I'd say Tau units are still less hassle to manage than most infantry.I'll take that bet Chris.

Squads of 6 70-req FW with setup times and no means of surviving a melee besides retreating under microed support from commander support. The minute you take a cog out of the system (TC, vespids, PF) the entire mess goes tits up.

[ChienAboyeur]

It will all depend on the playstyle: if the opponent keeps running his troops onto the the FWs, FWs will do awesome.

If the opponent starts to manage to get FW to run a little bit, it will be another story.

[Spekkio]

Underwhelming? OK so units like fire warriors might not put out the raw DPS of a 5 heavy bolter tac squad but I'd hardly call them underwhelming, especially since they don't require heavy weapon upgrades, attached heroes etc. to perform, just 1-2 armoury upgrades. Even with shitty HP and poor LOS, I'd say Tau units are still less hassle to manage than most infantry.

Yea until you figure out how to use jump troops or an AoE spell to make them move.


How's about nerfing the stupidly imba SS, and then making it so Pathfinders get some sort of awesome anti-tank weapon in T3? Nerfing SS is fine; changing their role is not needed. Pathfinders need to put out some sort of anti-infantry damage considering they cost the same as a FW + 20 power.

The spotter role isn't needed because you have vespids, kroot, and devilfish to do that for you.

The detector role isn't useful because pathfinders are too fragile for it by the time they hit the field. Vespids are far better suited for that role.

[ImmortalChaos]

Anything that entangles FWs will entagle other ranged troops... And tau dont have to worry about any FoF or lossing a HW member, they just run, and use rediculously imba snares to cover up for any advantage they may have lost, usually regaining it instantly if they tie something down.

[War-Reborn]

It's not quite so simple as running away, FW are extremly slow, there not even the best ranged troops IMO DR perform just aswell if not better at least until tier 3 and only fall behind then if the TAU gets the armour an range upgrade from going krooty

[Spekkio]

Anything that entangles FWs will entagle other ranged troops... And tau dont have to worry about any FoF or lossing a HW member, they just run, and use rediculously imba snares to cover up for any advantage they may have lost, usually regaining it instantly if they tie something down.
Other ranged troops have more HP, better melee, and don't have a setup time (exception: HB tacs). They can also be supported through attached heroes while the TC not only can't attach, he can't melee. Have you ever tried to take on 2x zerk + sorc with 3x FW + TC? Even with snares, it's not pretty. You pretty much can attack move right through them, and the FWs won't be able to kill the zerks fast enough. Plus, the more the TC spams snares, the slower they tech, and Tau has to hit tier 3 first or else they are going to lose. Their t3 units simply cannot stand up to others in a prolonged fight.

What saves Tau FWs much more than snares is vespid sonic pulse. TC + Vespids are really the only thing holding Tau up. Granted they are imba, but if you get rid of that then Tau is going to need some serious buffs in other places to keep up late-game. It's just that TC + Vespids give Tau such an eco/army advantage that the other opponent is always behind in tech.

[The_Guardman]

TC not only can't attach, he can't melee.

The TC do melee. And do his basic gun damage in it, so not so low on DpS. He's just low HP, so it seem doing nothing because he die fast, but he can do it.

[ImmortalChaos]

Other ranged troops have more HP, better melee, and don't have a setup time (exception: HB tacs). They can also be supported through attached heroes while the TC not only can't attach, he can't melee. Have you ever tried to take on 2x zerk + sorc with 3x FW + TC?
Honestly, 3x FW and the TC would have a much much better time than, say, 3x tacs or CSM and the FC/CL against that.

TC snares in front of the closest FW squad, TAs the sorc, then everything FFs the sorc (and if he is attached then he has to stop his zerk squad moving to cast, wich is a fatal error), and he will probably die just after he gets his 2 spells out (if not before that), at this point you may lose a FW squad to chains+zerks, but if the snare went off your FW will outlast the chains and be able to run, and with no sorc chaos is completely fucked.

And thats with just T1. No other race has any kind of chance against that- It'd end up with the first chained squad getting owned, possibly surviving sorc, and then having to perma dance untill the sorc comes back/recharges.

The only race that could do better is eldar/crons... And no one is saying tau are less moble than eldar.

Not that it will ever matter, but the TC does no less damage in melee than ranged- Check the wiki, he suffers no damage penalty in melee.

[Baro]

Whoah! Spekkio says The Truth. The uber imba combo of doom, and the eco advantage they grant, make that the people look at other tau units trought a imba-prism, when they don't deserver it/aren't so powerfull in most cases. At the moment, tau are winning by pure brute eco-strengt, not because their units are so powerfull.

As an example, lets take what inmortal have posted above. 3xFW+TC VS 2zerks+sor OR 3xTACs +FC VS 2zerks+sor. Lets begin:

First of, all units are unupgraded, except the TC whit flamer.

--------------------------------------------------
3 FULL TAC squads + FC

- 3 x 8 TACS = 1170 Reqs

DPS_per squad_H_med= 90.4 (Melee= 74.4)
DPS_per squad_Comander= 38.8

9360 HP

- Force Comander= 260 Req 50 Ener

DPS_H_med= 45.6 (Melee= 103.8)
DPS_Comander (Melee)= 61.1

1875_Comander_HP

TOTAL=1430 Req +55 Ener

-----------------------------------------------------

3 FULL FW squads + TC

- 3 x 6 FWs = 1260 Reqs

DPS_per squad_H_med= 93.6 (Melee= 24.4)
DPS_per squad_Comander= 37.8

6120 HP

- Tau Comander= 250 Req 55 Ener

DPS_H_med= 30.8+11.3xN(N enemy units affected) (Melee= )
DPS_Comander(range)= 19.3

1000_Comander_HP

TOTAL=1510 Req +125 Ener (2 snares counted)

-----------------------------------------------------

First conclusion trouthg numbers alone is that:

1\TACs have about 53% more HP than FWs, FC have 87.5% more HP than TC.

2\A TAC squad standing still do about the same dps than a FW squad against zekers, from a shorter range BUT whit no setup time (important when dancing) and is able to fire on the move (also important when dancing).

3\The Tau setup is 80 Req + 75 Ener more expensive than Marine's one. That means almost half the cost of a new squad for the marines, and a 75 secs (whit one generator) delay of Tau hitting tier2.

4\A TACs_8man squad do more than 3 times the melee damage of a FWs_6man one and cost 30 Reqs less.

Seeing that, it's difficult for me to imagine how marines have it harder, but lets analice a worst case scenario of zekers against tau setup.

-----------------------------------------------------

2 Maxed Zekers squads: 16 members 9760 HP.
Dps_per squad_against snares_range= 44 (snares have no armor value, so i have taken 5.5 dps for member as an average)
Dps_per_zeker_H_med=36.5

Sorceror: 1000HP, Jump, Chains and Doombolt
-----------------------------------------------------
Maybe I'm wrong, but i think that the worst case scenario for Zeker's setup is to charge an already standing line of FW (280.8dps +TC), whit LoS, whit the TC and one snare in front of the line and another behind as fall back point.

Then it is: zekers charge (fast speed so it takes less than 4 secs in the aproach i havent calculated it), stop and focus fire (at range) against the snare(takes about 3 secs to blow it up). Almost reach the FW line, Tau fall back. Zekers focus the second snare (another 4 secs). Chains, 1 squad dead, doombolt, one squad halved,jump-> perma dance something.

(This is whiout using the sorceror jump to disrupt one squad in first place or considering the multi-tied squad effect, and considering pretty long times of exposure to fire)

All in all, zekers under utter focused fire (something never happening) would have lost 2 members charging, plus another one (maybe two) while stopped to destroy the snare. After that, it is a favourable situation for Korneys, as they will be constantly tieing something whit their speed, eventually dealing some blows(4 zekers kill a FW in less 3 secs in CC). While the FWs won't be able to shoot back due to set up time and being slower.


Also, I'm pretty sure that ther are better ways to assault the Tau line that the one I've thougth.
--------------------------------------------------------

After all, it is fair to state that FWs don't perform so well against zekers. And have it thought to counter them cost-whise. BUT, in a real game, the zekers will not encounter 3FW+TC. They will face 3xFW+PF+Vespids+Pulse rifle upgrades+TC whit launchers, and people will blame Tau tier 2 of being OP and mark target of uber imba. As a result FWs,PF, etc will look stronger to most players than they are in real. Just as Inmortal probed in the post before.

First nerf TC+Vespids, next see what happens.


----------- End of uber off-topicness-------

[ChienAboyeur]

Also, I'm pretty sure that ther are better ways to assault the Tau line that the one I've thougth.

Every way forcing the Tau line to come to you rather than going to them is a better one (like attacking the Tau map control they have greater thanks to SSs fast capping and VS/TC preventing opponent from expanding his)
This way, FW lose their setting time up, snares are to be produced on location and can be shot down by a shooty unit whereas the melee units are doing the charge.

[The_Guardman]

- Tau Comander= 250 Req 55 Ener

DPS_H_med= 30.8+11.3xN(N enemy units affected) (Melee= )
DPS_Comander(range)= 19.3

1875_Comander_HP
Actually, it is 1000 HP Commander_Ar (+200 from metallurgy, +200 from ethereal).

[ImmortalChaos]

I lol'ed at 3 full squads... I doubt any race would be able to reinforce to full, not even once or twice if they got 3 squads and chaos was heading for zerks.


Then it is: zekers charge (fast speed so it takes less than 4 secs in the aproach i havent calculated it), stop and focus fire against the snare(takes about 3 secs to blow it up). Almost reach the FW line, Tau fall back. Zekers focus the second snare (another 4 secs). Chains, 1 squad dead, doombolt, one squad halved,jump-> perma dance something.
Each time the zerks melee the snare it will go off and fuck them in the ass. Even if they killed it themselves. This my friend is a winning situaiton for tau.

[ImmortalChaos]

Actually spekkio said they would do bad first. The I pointed out they do better than everyone else.

As for shooting the snares: D'oh :p

[ChienAboyeur]

Shooting snares still negates one big Tau force.

[Makaris]

So the zerks are going to stop running at the Tau and stop to shoot at the snares?

Doesn't that achieve nearly the same effect as just getting hit by the snares? Point is the Zerk's advanced was slowed down and the Tau have time to move and shoot more.

[The_Guardman]

Depend on how much time it take to down a mine by shooting.

[Apathetic]

Then it is: zekers charge (fast speed so it takes less than 4 secs in the aproach i havent calculated it), stop and focus fire (at range) against the snare(takes about 3 secs to blow it up). Almost reach the FW line, Tau fall back. Zekers focus the second snare (another 4 secs). Chains, 1 squad dead, doombolt, one squad halved,jump-> perma dance something.That's the time to kill a snare according to Baro's example. It's overly simplistic by his own admission and does not account for the Sorc tying up one FW squad to cover the zerk advance.

How many times have we gone over this match-up? We theorycrafted all the twists each player can work into the picture but the overriding facts are that Sorc Chains = 1 dead FW squad unless you've got a Vespid pulse up to push the zerks back. Doombolt means one or more squads at 50% (whereas some other races would weather the damage more capably). On heavily reinforced zerks, snares can often achieve only partial coverage while leaving a few members unsnared. This allows the Chaose player to reach the FW line where Chaos casualties drop to near-zero as the FW are forced to constantly move.

The only thing Tau has at this point is TC missles to hopefully keep the Sorc on his ass and upgraded plasma rilfes. We'd hope to have vespids in the mix as well but that wasn't the stated lineup. And regardless of who wins, Tau is going to be dropping a buttload of power (4+ snares for 140+ power) to either succeed or retreat.

[Makaris]

So, in other words, it is micro intensive and requires skill?

Oh yeah, totally imbalanced.

[KotCR]

Tau Commander + 3x Fire Warriors pwn 'zerkers much harder than Force Commander + 3x vanilla Tacs quite literally because of the range advantage they have, and Snare Traps. Yeah, the 'zerkers can stop and shoot the Snare Trap, but you can set another one up, and if they are standing to shoot the snare trap they are not closing the gap on the Fire Warriors giving the Fire Warriors a couple extra shots in. Tau Fire Warriors also do have slightly more firepower for cost than SM Tacs, and against a unit that isn't returning damage that's more useful than more HP.

What complicates matters is the Sorceror.
If CSM has him, after Chains you can pretty much guarantee your going to lose at least a single Fire Warrior squad, and while you'll probably end up killing the 'zerkers and Sorceror no problem still anyway, you'll then find yourself a bit undermanned when the PSM follow up very soon after.

Of course, in many cases a game will never get like this because Tau T1 -> CSM T1 so hard it's laughable. CSM don't have a chance on several maps.


Also, I'm pretty sure that ther are better ways to assault the Tau line that the one I've thougth.
Rhinos + Furious Charge.

Oh and BTW that Tau force is actually cheaper than the SM force you mentioned, seems SM RAX is much more expensive than Tau RAX, SM have more expensive builders, SM have very slightly more expensive cappers, and SM Listening Posts build slower.

This might not be relevant a fair way into the game, but looking at the force composition I'm assuming the sides are challenging a fast 'zerker tech and both are still stuck in T1, so it is relevant.

[Spekkio]

Tau Commander + 3x Fire Warriors pwn 'zerkers much harder than Force Commander + 3x vanilla Tacs quite literally because of the range advantage they have, and Snare Traps. Yeah, the 'zerkers can stop and shoot the Snare Trap, but you can set another one up, and if they are standing to shoot the snare trap they are not closing the gap on the Fire Warriors giving the Fire Warriors a couple extra shots in. Tau Fire Warriors also do have slightly more firepower for cost than SM Tacs, and against a unit that isn't returning damage that's more useful than more HP.
The range advantage is non-existant without a spotter. That means a SS (which will die rather fast because the sorc detects) or a vespid squad. But those aren't being factored in, the same way cultist meat shields and raptors/CL aren't being factored in.


After all, it is fair to state that FWs don't perform so well against zekers. And have it thought to counter them cost-whise. BUT, in a real game, the zekers will not encounter 3FW+TC. They will face 3xFW+PF+Vespids+Pulse rifle upgrades+TC whit launchers, and people will blame Tau tier 2 of being OP and mark target of uber imba. As a result FWs,PF, etc will look stronger to most players than they are in real. Just as Inmortal probed in the post before. This is exactly it. CSM just has no chance of reaching tier 2 with remotely equal eco to Tau. If they could, any equivelent army for cost combination that they could field would be superior to Tau's.

3x FW + TC can NOT stop 2x full Zerks + sorc w/ chains. As soon as 1 zerk gets through, that FW squad is as good as gone. Also, no one has mentioned using the sorc teleport to tie up the FWs.

[Morkeau]

The problem with Tau is that they have to re-work pathfinders. PF nearly double the DPS output of all tau shooty units, so Relic decided to balance units around pathfinders... Thing is, each squad you wish to mark requires a 150/40 investment in fragile units that die in .2 seconds of focus-fire unless you intend to somehow only fight one squad every 30 seconds... So yea, the way PF's and Mark Target works needs to be looked at so that Tau late t2/t3 can be balanced in a normal way... This would bring Tau's t3 cost and damage on par with other t3 elites. Tau has no use for cheap tier 3 elites that are outperformed by all other elites except in the category of base bashing.

Sorry for distilling a bit, but I think you were on the ball right there, Spekkio. If CS as a T3 unit was designed to be used in conjunction with PF mark target ability, it would seem that PF, at 2 pop, is pretty expensive (in terms of pop-cap) for a necessary T3 support unit (it hogs up the same amount of pop a CS uses).

To illustrate; Going from 10 pop-cap (T2) to 15 pop-cap (T3) with 3 x CS costing 6 pop, means you probably won't be getting any more PF than the ones you had at the end of T2 (in fact, you'd need to find 1 extra pop somewhere once you hit T3). Since PF costs 2 pop and are available in T2, it means, going from 10 pop-cap (T1) to 15 pop-cap (T2) meant you can add a maximum of 2 x PF once you hit T2, unless you weren't being efficient in T1. In T2 you'd be hard pressed to forego an extra squad of FW, or KC (or even BS at 3 pop) for every squad of PF. So, at their current pop requirement, only 1 PF makes any real sense for a viable, efficiently scaled Tau army.

That's pretty hard going for CS, if it's only a real T3 unit every 45 seconds for 20 seconds against marked targets. The T3 Tau army is functioning as a T3 Tau army only 44% of the time against one squad of infantry. Pretty bad design decision (to balance the troops against pathfinders) IMO.

It's tricky, but if we stick to the original design principle, how about: Reduce PF pop req to 1, hard cap PF at max 2 squads.

[The_Guardman]

It's tricky, but if we stick to the original design principle, how about: Reduce PF pop req to 1, hard cap PF at max 2 squads.
This is a buff IMHO. Personally I use only 1 PF unit just because of the pop cost, and due to the overall small size of a tau army. One target lock is enough to change an engagement, if you use the units you have in a proper way.
Having them limited to 2, and with pop of one practically double the firepower of the tau army (!!!): the second target lock will be used on the most convenient enemy unit, not talking about the small help the 5 extra bodies + slower guns can bestow.

[Spekkio]

Just have PFs only affect FWs. I usually view them as Tau's "heavy weapons" anyway, just put onto a separate unit.

Either that, or add some researches that scale PFs into tier 3, so that they're justified in taking up 2 pop. But then you end up neglecting FWs entirely, and that's stupid.

I like the first option much better.

I also think that there should be a speed and DPS upgrade in the PTE for FWs if you go Mont'ka, while Kauyon gives you range + armor.

[War-Reborn]

I think the tau tier 3 research tree is poor in terms of choice an options, 1 tree has a 2 buff it all researches, and the other has none

Personally i would break that research up into smaller chunks, on individual units, rather than the current buff FW, Buff SS, Buff this that an the other all in one go, it looks simplistic an rushed like a cuople of weeks before shipping a conversation in the office whent down like this.
shit games due to be in the shops in a couple of weeks an we haven't done any tier 3 research abilities yet. how do we upgrade all these units? i know chuck in a couple of researches that buff the lot, great idea lets do it!

Kauyon which is all about kroots close combat units and infantry, would basically get the gnarloc, an krootox upgrade obviously, a new research for kroot carnivors upgrading there close combat rifles + armour which would increase there cc dps from around 13 to 18/19 or so + adding 40 hp, so they can better serve as tie up units protecting your long range FW, FW would have there normal armour and a range upgrade here in this tree too, so when you get to tier 3 if you go kauyon there's some strategic choice as to what to research first etc rather than the buff me all now research that seems to affect wildly varying units

For mont ka which seems to be about hi teck tanks an battle suits, i'd have the SS range and LOS upgrades here + a slight increase again to there Fusion blasters range, the upgrades to Gunship armour & drone ship armour, an drone squad armour here aswell, an all new research upgrade for the CS adding another 200hp or so, and another new research increasing the range of Broadsides by 15

Coalition centre
Final 200 hp Health upgrade for tau commander would go here
A new final 1000hp gnarloc health upgrade would go here aswell, so depending on which tree u go you get either a 12000 or 9000hp gnarloc (taking into account 200hp etherial bonus)

thats just my opinion but i'd like to see some real choice an variety in tau's tier 3 research with each tree confering bonus's that enhance differant units an result in differant playstyles so the kroot tree would be infantry heavy with beasts, hounds an carnivores engaging in CC, backed by long range FW at the back rather like now, but with tougher carnivors to better tie units up with, tree looses all the vehicles buffs etc because they seem out of place here in a tree that focus's on strong CC units savage beasts with long range FW providing the backup

While montka would be hi teck battle suites + Standard range FW, backed by heavy Battlesuits & tanks, again similar to now.
But with added enhancements to the standard tanks since this is the tree that focus's more on vehicles an battlesuits (SS,BS,CS), And added enhancements to the BS brirng this big battlesuit unit much more to play in this tree which seems logical as this is tree that gives access to the hi-teck Crisis battle suits,

In terms of general tau stuff i would change snares to only affect infantry, simply for logic an looking right reasons
PF teams MT needs to be tones down a bit, especially in light of the slightly beefed up tree options above, i would alos reduce the squad size to 4 and have a 4 man team get 2 MT abilites as long as it has the 4 members if ones killed it will need to be re-enforced back to 4 to get the second MT kick in again, this means there'l be a geninue reason to actually re-enforce a PF team as currently there is no real worthwhile reason to do it, it's pop cap cost of 2 will be more justified as you will get 2 MT abilties instead of 1, but the overall cost of those 2 abilites will be the same as now, i'e 1 team of 4 costs the same as the current 2 teams of 2, you just use less pop cap and dont have to fiddle about with 2 smaller an easier to kill PF teams, slowdown effect from pulse rifles would increase to 10% (to offset loss of 5th member) however the duration would go up from current 2.5 to 3 secs and the range would increase by 5 with the purchase of the advanced pulse rifles upgrade, alowing PF to perform a useful support role other than just MT and to not all get killed while doing it.

I know the above only covers some tau issues mainly tier 3 an 4 with the PF change intruding into tier 2 teritory a bit, but at least to me, i think changes along those lines would give montka an kauyon a much better feel with more research choice and really changing the way both teck tree's play, while bring units like the Broad Side an carnivores back into play depending on the choice of montka or kauyon.

PF changes are small but the fact that there's little point to re-enforce past 2 men is an issue, and the short 25 range should be upgradable later in tier 2 with the right research as there's little way to use them in there other supporting role of slowing units down otherwise.

[Arcinatus]

war reborn.....i love you...great ideas... i totally agree with changing how tau's tier 3 works, each option just needs more specific options..

[Morkeau]

Just have PFs only affect FWs. I usually view them as Tau's "heavy weapons" anyway, just put onto a separate unit.

@Spekkio: I agree with you there, but unfortunately it would mean visibly rebalancing the rest of the Tau army "upwards" - i.e. pretty much buffing most of it; and that means we'll have a community uproar on our hands! :-)

That said, your second option, to allow an upgrade in T3, would be more diplomatic.

@Guardman: Oh I agree that it's a buff to reduce PF pop to 1 even with the hardcap at 2. And I agree that it only makes sense to get one, given the current pop requirements (and I've never seen a good Tau player use more than one). However, though I agree that 2 x PF @ 1 pop each in T2 is OP, I think you'd agree that 2 x PF @ 1 pop each in T3 is not OP (since T3 units like the CS were designed with ML in mind), right?

How about: PF pop = 1, but Hardcap PF @ 2; AND nerf PF ML ability in T2, but allow an upgrade option for ML in T3 like Spekkio suggested?

People will be divided whether it's a Nerf or a Buff - I think it's neither, but an 88% coverage by PF ML is something you can design and balance properly for. i.e. CS will be a proper T3 unit 88% of the time, provided you take care of your 2 x PF.

[Spekkio]

Hard caps suck, and should only be used as an absolute last resort. They are an extremely lazy way to balance the game. If it were up to me, DoW would have no hard caps except for heroes/relic units.

As far as buffing other units...so? 2x hammerheads w/ mark target are imba. Without it, hammerheads aren't really all that because of their low HPs. So make them meet somewhere in the middle.

Same thing with CS. With mark target, cs + flamers will tear through anything. Without it, they lose to everything.

That whole dynamic is dumb. It's akin to IG NEEDING priests for their t3. Get rid of that shit.

[War-Reborn]

Hardcaps are important, while i disagree with there use on a large scale, elite units should be hardcapped, it's nothing to do with balance, although a hardcap can be used to aid balance aswell, but the main point of hardcaps is prevent unit spam, and distorted tier 3/4 gameplay, that solely revolves around 1 or 2 elite units, the IG is made up of millions of men not millions of ogrens an kaskins yet with no hardcap thats all you would see at tier 3 not a GM in site despite it being the staple IG unit, hardcaps in DC have hugely improved the variety of players army makeups, especially in the later tiers.

So that tier 4 armies are comprised of a variety of units working in conjunction, back in WA team games in particular would degenerate into tier 3/4 spam fests of assault terms, 6 pred, 10 Fire Prisms tedium everytime the game got to higher tiers, it was dull in the extreme, an totally killed any attempt at combined arms, it was just build you elites an go, now that elites are hardcapped the units that actually make up the bulk of the races armies are actually called into play far more, so it's terminator units supporting tac's rather than terminators being all you build, terminators are the elite units of the SM chapters just like obliterators are the elites of chaos, yet playing tier 3 an 4 in WA you'd be forgiven in thinking they were SM an chaos's main frontline troops when they are not, current hardcaps may not be perfect but it's a far better system than the elite freefor all that preceded it.

[The_Guardman]

(since T3 units like the CS were designed with ML in mind), right?
Hopefully, not.
CS is for quick & hard hits, that should leave nothing behind. It is a cross (as concept) between a spearhead, a flanker and a generalist, with ability to endure sustained fire (and light close combat, because it should be able to do it) for enough time to allow the remain of Tau army to sweep in, position and start to support.

[ChienAboyeur]

As far as buffing other units...so? 2x hammerheads w/ mark target are imba. Without it, hammerheads aren't really all that because of their low HPs. So make them meet somewhere in the middle.

Same thing with CS. With mark target, cs + flamers will tear through anything. Without it, they lose to everything.

That whole dynamic is dumb. It's akin to IG NEEDING priests for their t3. Get rid of that shit.

Tau are not an army of specialists. They are an army of units complementary to each others, one needing the addition of another to perform at the level of expectation.

Tau usually need two (different) types of units working together to achieve a result.

Suits well Tau ideology.

[Morkeau]

Yeah, hardcaps suck, since they hamper choice flexibility and further army specialization, especially when working with team mates. Tau armies would start feeling pre-chewed and same-ish when too many hardcaps are used.

However, like War-reborn said, they started covering other units to prevent unit spam abuse and hard-caps seem to be the only thing that really work, without nerfing the unit to make it completely ineffective.

I agree with ChienAboyeur that Tau units are designed to work together to be stronger and Tau shouldn't turn into an army of uber-units. The fluff completely supports this and it is what makes Tau unique. That said, on second thought, I retract my initial premise that PF were support units; Heck, ALL Tau units are support units! Which is why we have a terrible time when we are forced to fight on two fronts.

This tangent's not going anywhere, so to get back on topic:

Seems to me that Crisis Suits, as their name suggests, are really designed for short, PF un-supported incursions though - they jump in deep to wreak havok, or take out specific targets behind the enemy's front line, then jump out. To make them fall in line with the Tau way of doing things, the 3 x CS are then supposed to be able to support each other, which is what I think Guardman is trying to say. Hence they can be upgraded with flamers or missile launchers. Without restating what has already been said here; both weapons are not doing what they are supposed to be doing, unless they can be supported by PF, which means the CS is not doing what it's supposed to be doing either because it'll be targeting units, already covered by Tau's less mobile units stationed near the vulnerable PF.

[Ordo Mallius]

Maybe should add a force effect on every fifth shot of burst cannon, or shot of fusion gun, to make it so that cc units have a harder time getting close, it's just a thought.

[TeKKpriest[O_O]]

hoohaa ! i like that dreadnaught hp! :o not a bad idea and to make hwt useful give it baneblade hit points that might go a long way too

[magicalcarpet]

i actually lol'd at that

[War-Reborn]

Well when i look at CS the biggest issues i see are a mixture of things, basic problems that seem unintentional as a result of the 3 into 1 unit merge yet hinder the basic effectivenss of the unit, compared to other races

And some design flaws were weapons dont seem to fit there role

Basic unit issue's
Health recovery, the unit was given a base health recovery rate of 1, in 1.2 since they actually forgot to give kroot hounds and suits a regen rate in 1.1!!! but moving on from that a value of 1 would have been just fine, when the CS was a 3 man team with 800hp each, for a single unit with 2500hp it's wholly inadequate for the following reasons.
All other infantry squads when they take dmg usually have it spread around the squad so a value of 1 is multiplied out by the number of members damaged, as a result a squad even on standard healing rates after even a short while out of combat has usually recovered a good chunk of collective health (unless it's a kroot hound pack they forgot to add the rate in 1.2 too!!!, but this looks like being fixed in SS at last!) and is in a better combat ready state as a result, to compound matters most races have access to medic's, waystation research, chaos building taint etc and some squads simply have good basic regen rates, which all added togther mean most squads can be got combat ready even from heavy damage relatively quickly, since most combat is not charge in shoot the place up get killed, build new squad rinse an repeat, but a two-ing an frowing accross the map pressing the advantage when you have it an high tailing it out of there when you don't, sqauds tend to end up taking just as big a chunks of non lethal damage as outright casualties, the ability to get these half dead souls back up to a state of reasonable combat effectivenss is important, and can save quite a bit of money in attrition losses, this is why i find kroot hounds frustrating, i know there good unit's but there's nothing worse that throwing your squad into a fight only to have 3 of them die at the first bullet, in prolonged skimishes lack of decent healing can turn into a real disadvantage.

Now i'm not suggesting CS be given 20HP a sec regen, but a 3 man team combined into 1 should have a basic 3hp a sec rate now it's a single unit (broadsides should be similarly upgraded), now that sounds like a lot, when most squads have 1 or 2 but in practise most infantry squads have a rate a lot higher depending on how many members are damaged, for a unit with 2500hp the current rate of 1 means a badly damaged suit is best deleted as you have no chance of recovering a decent amount of health, not when healing just half your health takes over 20 mins, deleting units, especially elite ones seems totaly at odd's with strategic principles, it's a waste

Second big bugbear concerns the weapon upgrades, the flamer is good, alhtough the way it fires in a straight line seems a bit odd but thats not a huge deal, the missile is however, it's a complete joke
Inf Heavy inf Vehicles Buildings Monster
Low Med High H.Med H.Hi Cmdr Low Med High Low Med High Med High
39.6 33.7 41.6 9.9 4.0 29.7 72.2 73.3 25.7 49.5 29.7 9.9 49.5 25.7
Inf Heavy inf Vehicles Buildings Monster
Low Med High H.Med H.Hi Cmdr Low Med High Low Med High Med High
11.2 11.2 11.2 7.4 3.7 11.2 74.4 74.4 40.9 7.4 37.2 29.8 11.2 26.0

These are from the wiki, now the first issue i have is that the first set of numbers are far superior in most area's and the area's were there not it's mainly by 1 or 2 dps.....so why am i paying a load of cash to replace these with somthing that's worse...hardly an upgrade in the true sense of the word in effect you replacing a short range accurate (this means small amounts of dmg often) weapon with strong values across the board with a slighty longer range varient that is very in-acurrate (large amounts of dmg per hit, infrequent hit's) it's a downgrade, even if the dmg was the same simply because it's better to do 10 dps dmg once per second than 50dps dmg every 5 seconds as that way if your unit dies in 3 seconds you have actually done some dmg, the missile either needs a better accuracy rate an DPS befitting it status as a weapon upgrade! either that or some kind of disruption attack, because on it's current showing it's the fusion blaster that should be the cost option!

I actually agree with a lot of the points others have made in this thread, re - a moderate/small power/cost increase & having the choice of which arm to palce the upgrades on etc, someone mentioned shield drones, i liked that one, but it's the health regen rates/repair options or lack of and the missile upgrade that to me standout as being totally broken, elite infantry that in all practical sense does not heal and weapon upgrades that do less dmg than the originals are real tear your hair out in frustration episodes

[Morkeau]

Health recovery, the unit was given a base health recovery rate of 1... 1 would have been just fine, when the CS was a 3 man team with 800hp each, for a single unit with 2500hp it's wholly inadequate for the following reasons.
...the ability to get these half dead souls back up to a state of reasonable combat effectivenss is important, and can save quite a bit of money... in prolonged skimishes lack of decent healing can turn into a real disadvantage... Now i'm not suggesting CS be given 20HP a sec regen, but a 3 man team combined into 1 should have a basic 3hp a sec rate now it's a single unit (broadsides should be similarly upgraded).
@War-Reborn: Sorry for distilling a bit. The Math makes sense, but I don't think it's so much a problem for CS mainly due to the fact that their pop is only 2, they are relatively quickly built (30s), they can relatively quickly support wherever they need to be due to their Jetpacks and barracks are dead cheap for Tau. Because the pop-cap allows 3 (costing only 6), they jump around, bashing up stuff and can quickly get replaced whenever one dies. This is the path of the Killing blow, fast and furious and should leave no time for breathers.

But I agree with you that the BS should regen better, but that's a different topic covered elsewhere (they would be pretty usefull and more reliable in Kauyon type strats if they could be repaired in between skirmishes, or regenerated better - and the same regen math definitely makes sense for them).

As for the Missile and Flamer fixes, I think we all agree that something must be done.

[The_Guardman]

Yes, we all agree that something has to be done for the weapons, just nobody seem to agree on what. :)

Personally I will put the regen of both CS and BS to 3, and some other fix for BS I posted around.

Also reduce jump setup to 1 second.

Regarding the CS weapons:

- CS start with no weapon at all. It is able to do CC, however, with half-decent ability.

- CS can reinforce one weapon for each arm in 5 seconds, cost to decide.

Left Arm:
- Flamer: Fix the AoE so it is a true flamer AoE. Reduce greatly damage to buildings, cut infantry damage by 33%. Anti-morale weapon.
- Burst Cannon: benefit from the stealth suit's research that allow full aim on the move. Damage get a 10% buff and another 10% buff with the burst cannon damage research (the same used by stealth suites).

Right Arm:
- Fusion gun: Good vs. both vehicle and buildings, range upped to 25 (from 20), damage buffed by a flat +30%.
- Smart Missile System: Change AoE to 4 (up from 1) and decent disruptive force. Range upped to 50 (from 30).

[TeKKpriest[O_O]]

crisiss suits are perfectly fine its just all the other tier 3 units are grossly overpowered bleh psm and oblits alone can destroy 950059i305i tier 1 armies its just ridiculous fanatic + kk = cant even touch them gitz + juice = lolz cant even come near that toooo many imba tier 3 units and it really doesnt help that each gets some annoying ability to make their counter unable to counter them lik the oblit teleport wtf that thing is so lame they shoot while teleporting even if theyre tied by melee WTFUX

[War-Reborn]

Elite squads are meant to be powerful, it's why they are now hardcapped at 1 since they were all anyone built back in WA/DOW once people hit tier 3, terminators, PSM are meant to be man for man an squad for squad far superior to standard troops

A 2 or 3 cultist sqauds slaying a sqaud of PSM would not look right in fluff or gameplay terms

[TeKKpriest[O_O]]

the problem is that when kk cost 40/10 and say a tac costs 50 .. eventaulyl the tacs will loes because of how cost effective kk are i dont care about fluff this game is completely ridiculkous and imbalanced it needs to be balanced first tech speeds need to slow down and then fluff where one squad can beat up a few ohters can come in cuz one PSM squad beats ALOT more than just 3 simple cultists it can beat like a million kroots alone and break everything with flamers and they cost like what 55/10 each? LOl

[Jaimas]

I love Crisis Suits. Wholly unappreciated and in dire need of love.

Things that I feel need fixing on the Crisis Suit:

1. Fix weapon viability. Every weapon the CS has should be viable - whether you upgrade it with a Flamer or a Missile Pod, or you keep it as it is out of the box. Read on:

1-A: Fix the flamer. Currently it's an IMBA death-sprayer that projects in a line. It should be toned down damage-wise - however, it also deserves its proper cone trajectory.

1-B: The Burst cannon Works fine, but it needs a targetting fix. See Fix #2.

1-C: The Fusion Blaster works well as well, but, again, needs a targetting fix.
See Fix #2.

1-D: The Missile Pod is in dire need of fixing. The reload time is atrocious (6 seconds) for a weapon with its DPS and a chance to miss 3 out of 10 times.
Make its fire rate reasonable whilst keeping the DPS. Consider giving the missile a small splash for disruption. That should help.


2. Targetting problems abound with the Crisis Suit; often they will fire one weapon at a target you told them to shoot, whilst the other arm goes and does whatever it feels like (usually shooting something else). A lot of this stems from the Crisis Suit's wonky priorities; ideally, it should bring all weapons to bear on the target regardless of what that target is.


3. Consider counting Crisis Suits as vehicles. I would happily trade 6 vehicle cap for Crisis Suits with Vehicle_Low or Med Armor, and would sap out their morale and regen rates entirely as part of the bargain, since they would be repairable.
This also has the benefits of fixing Broadsides' viability indirectly - since they could very justifiably be Vehicle_Low or Med armor and would actually see use that way.

3-A: As an addendum, fix the Broadside's missile launchers. It's primarily AI when it should be AV.

4. If you're going to keep them organics, make their HP Regen 3/sec. I should not have to explain why this is essential, but if I do, I'll sum it up with one statement: Too much HP with too little Regen means dead Crisis Suits after one extended battle.


That's pretty much it. I love Crisis Suits.

[War-Reborn]

']the problem is that when kk cost 40/10 and say a tac costs 50 .. eventaulyl the tacs will loes because of how cost effective kk are i dont care about fluff this game is completely ridiculkous and imbalanced it needs to be balanced first tech speeds need to slow down and then fluff where one squad can beat up a few ohters can come in cuz one PSM squad beats ALOT more than just 3 simple cultists it can beat like a million kroots alone and break everything with flamers and they cost like what 55/10 each? LOl

Well of course they will loose, kaskins are an elite IG squad hardcapped at 1 unit, that require 2 expensive hq upgrades before they become available, if tacs, a unit that requires just a barracks and are not hardcapped, have them beat on cost effectiveness, then there will be no point in having elite squads, when standard infantry can be used just as effectively, without the investment in structures an tier upgrades

I think the elite system, especially for infantry squads, with the new DC hardcap system works just fine, these squads add fun & flavour but being hardcapped at 1, means you cant just spam them out out at tier 3, they need to be used in conjunction with your other forces

I do think you raise an excellent point on teck speed though, it is to fast, and does need slowing down, i suppose going back to a WA model were two structures were required to go to tier 2 barracks + armoury as opposed to the single structure now, is a good idea? but i do feel that at the moment the teck speed to high level units is a little on the fast side, it would be nice to spend more time fighting in tiers 1 an 2, and i think teams games were people teck even faster would see an equally good benefit from a teck speed slowed down a tad