[DC 1.2] 45 second MANz build -- a little inconsistent?

[Xanthian]

This is a question/discussion about how consistent, exactly, the 45 second build time on MANz is in the first place.

You'll note that they reinforce in 20 seconds, yet build in 45. The only other discrepancy is that they're 30 energy cheaper to build than reinforce. The build time would indicate that they were intended to build in at least 2s, probably 3s. (Although I can imagine the moaning about the price if manz were to cost something similar to tier 3 to build.) However, the reinforce cost is greater than the build cost... the only other units that share this discrepancy, to my knowledge, are necron warriors and free sluggas, and free sluggas share it for a very different reason.

So, uhh, why/how exactly is this consistent with any other squad? Even the seer council, for example, which seems to be about the most equivalent unit I can think of (hard cap 1, tier 2.5, commander armor, similarly stupid damage values across the board vs infantry), costs exactly the same to build per member as to reinforce, and actually builds faster than it reinforces.

If MANz were intended to be built in 1s and suicided across the board, they need a build time decrease. Otherwise, they need to build in larger numbers. As it is, there's some conjecture whether or not to build them simply because the 45 second figure is guaranteed to cause your tier 3 research to be delayed at that point in the game, at the end of which, you get something not quite as good as a commander unit, that has to be reinforced further for up to a minute before it's combat-ready.

Discuss.

[KotCR]

Just move them down a Banner, so you start to build them once you get to T2, instead of not building them because when you can get them you may aswell go up to T3 for Dok'ked Gitz/Free Sluggas. Keep the PoGs requirement to stop MANz hard-tech strategies appearing though.

Also I think a single MANz is pretty viable in combat still, they have close enough to the same HP each as the early T2 commanders. Of course you want to reinforce them when you can, but it's unlikely the first MANz will die before he gets his first new recruit.

[Xanthian]

Interesting -- would be possible to build manz as a vehicle soft counter instead of needing to hold off building nobs because the compulsory 2x tankbustaz are tying up the 'rax.

Although it might be too early then, because manz are some of the best herokillers, they'd be out in time to completely take heroes out of the game before they even do their tier 2 damage...

[KotCR]

Well the Big Mek loses to the other T1 heroes right?
Mostly because (other than WTFpwning basic infantry), he fills a support role in addition to his combat role.

So if MANz were an early T2 hero, well I don't see them being hero killers a problem. They don't really do anything else except detect (other than the usual hero stuff like soft-countering vehicles, and owning basic infantry). Chaplain, Sorceror, and Harlequin all have support abilities, so they make up their strength in other ways (and Harlequins are already hero killers).

And besides, you'd still need to reinforce them. I'm pretty sure a single MANz won't take a main hero.
I can't see how making them a Banner earlier would cause any problems...assuming the usual Tier 1 Big Shoota imbacrap is fixed.

And yeah, Big Mek's Zappa + MANz melee would make a nice early soft-counter to vehicles, so you could hold out on Tankbustas for a while.

[Chris]

MANZ also decimate buildings.

[ImmortalChaos]

MANz are always a little weird to build, what with the changes in the original member and reinforcements, but I'm always happy their performance once they are on the feild. They tear zerks/GKs a new one, thats for sure, and even their support heroes I might add.

[KotCR]

Keep the PoGs requirement to stop MANz hard-tech strategies appearing though.
Yes, I'm quoting myself.

Completely offtopic, but this is how I would fix the CSM T3 Raptor->'zerker->PSM power-tech too - making it so 'zerkers required an Armoury to build instead of the Sacrificial Circle, but of course kept them as requiring T2.

When you think about it, this would mostly leave the speed 'zerkers came out unchanged, but would open up a whole host of other possibilities for CSM (like getting the Armoury in T1 being more viable!), aswell as slowdown the speed at which 'zerkers with Sorceror Chains came out...

Powertech to T3 would still be possible, but you wouldn't have any out-of-the-box T2 units to stall for you while you did it.
Well except Horrors but I don't think they'd perform too well against your opponent's T1/T2 infantry :).

[Flagg]

MANZ are in my top 3 fave units in the game! Ultra tough, apart from a Mono there isn't much that can beat them one on one.

[ImmortalChaos]

I think I would have a blast with MANZ teching, personally :p

[KotCR]

Haha yeah MANz are awesome, one of my fave units too.
But while I'm always pleased with their performance, they're not exactly any harder to stop than most other Commanders.

[ImmortalChaos]

Not on their own, but with a nob squad and a shoota or 2 from T1, having the mek teleport nobz behind you, the MANz zoom at you, and the shootas.. attack move in your general direction, you're going to be in a world of hurt.

[KotCR]

How's that any different from 2x CSM Squads, the Sorceror, a 'zerker squad, and the Chaos Lord, coming at you?

Just used Frag Grenades, Entangle, Shout, whatever, that you currently have to use against Stormboyz or Nobz anyway.

I just think moving them down a Banner would be a goodway to give such a cool unit more gametime; As mentioned instead of getting Nobz+Tankbustas once Ork reached T2, he could get MANz+Nobz, or MANz+Tankbustas instead. I don't really think it would hurt the balance much at all...assuming those damn T1 Big Shootas are fixed to stop the snowball effect becoming bigger than it already is.

And hey, Orkz would be getting something to compensate for a Big Shoota nerf, so they would be less opposed to one ;).

[ImmortalChaos]

I'd rather see chaos doing that than orks, because chaos doing that means less PSMs/blitz on my ass in a minute :p

And yeah, orks DO need to be more orky... wich is less shooty.

[Frigidair44]

I agree... give us mans at 55 pop and reduce shoota damage... but buff melee damage.

Less shooty. More choopy. Bigga boys. Orks. Waaggghhh!!

[KotCR]

Nah Shootas don't need a damage reduction themselves, it's just Big Shootas need to be less efficient/less massable/less hidable behind Banners.
So basically make 'em more expensive, or further up the techtree, or reduce their range.

[Hawillis]

Reduce build time to 30s and leave?

[Xanthian]

Well the Big Mek loses to the other T1 heroes right?
Mostly because (other than WTFpwning basic infantry), he fills a support role in addition to his combat role.

Not once tier 2 hits. Stick him in a larger squad of sluggas and watch his damage soar through the ceiling, along with slightly better regen. Mek attachment pretty much justifies the cost of a few extra pathing-problem sluggas, considering the way that he can dish out serious punishment and run around superquick the instant you hit 55 pop + pog.

That's why I'm a little worried about it, that's all.

I'm not quite sure that earlier manz would constitute adequate justification for less shoota damage though, I'd still be pushing for having sluggas and stormboys deal damage on the move, or buffing their damage so they're not basically durable cultists without furious charge, because the shootas right now are the only reason they work at all.

[Vytae]

Well the Big Mek loses to the other T1 heroes right?
Mostly because (other than WTFpwning basic infantry), he fills a support role in addition to his combat role.

Not quite. He will decimate a CS squad (if im correct he decimates even 2 priest CS) as well as the TC and Farseer.

All the Ork heros are extremely solid. MANz are alot like the Seer Council: Pretty damn good (well actually,the seer council is beyond good like most eldar units) but not often seen due to the fact theres more shiny units within hands reach. And the fact they dont really NEED them often at that point.

[Xanthian]

Not quite. He will decimate a CS squad (if im correct he decimates even 2 priest CS) as well as the TC and Farseer.

Completely depends on how the squad is set up, what special attacks he uses, good or bad rolls with the lottery gun, etc. 2 priest cs squad can kill him with losing 1 member if the squad retreats and reinforces after losing it, if I'm not mistaken, or a few guardsmen laying down fire can soften the mek up enough that psykers will gib him, as I've heard Chris suggest is his favourite tactic.


MANz are alot like the Seer Council

In theory, yes. They both have good damage across the board, they both have commander armor, and both appear at roughly the same point in the game.

In practice, the seer council has fleet of foot, manz have power surge. Which do you think is better? Seer council has mysticism and entanglement. Manz have neither. Seer council attaches to farseer to reduce her cooldowns. Manz have no such synergy. Seer council is 9 members. Manz only have 4, and in quite a few cases this means you can lose the entire squad to rather low numbers of enemies, like a full zerk squad, due to their slow reinforce coupled with their few members. If you really are comparing manz with the seer council, the manz really do seem overpriced. But that's not my point with this thread anyway.

[ImmortalChaos]

SC is T3, manz are more like T2.25.
Manz will pwn the hell out of any single zerk squad, even a GK squad for that matter. They are in no way fragile from melee, if only because they will kill anything before it can kill them.

[KotCR]

He will decimate a CS squad (if im correct he decimates even 2 priest CS) as well as the TC and Farseer.
Hmm...in my experience a 2xPriest Command Squad beats even the Force Commander and Chaos Lord...with an additional reinforcement after the first member dies. It is a bit lottery though, like many of the Imperial Guards' things.

Tau Commander beats the Big Mek, due to Snare Traps, superior range, Target Acquired ability (or whatever it's called), and having an extra jump. Of course, that's assuming a vacuum situation.

Farseer loses to the Big Mek in a straight fight, but beats him if she uses her abilities. It's been that way for a loooong time.

Still, I'm actually one of those people that thinks the Big Mek is too strong...but that doesn't alter my opinion about thinking MANz should be moved down a Banner.

Speaking of which...


I'd still be pushing for having sluggas and stormboys deal damage on the move, or buffing their damage so they're not basically durable cultists without furious charge, because the shootas right now are the only reason they work at all.
See, I'd support giving Sluggas and Stormboyz better damage on the move, or buffing their base damage in melee....but in return I'd want the Big Mek's damage nerfed. He does stupid amounts of damage at the moment, particularly considering his cost and strong support abilities (Squad Teleport, Repair, and the possibility of damage reduction for squads in the area + a vehicle stun ability in late T1).

I mean with the hard-counter system long gone, any Commander unit that does more damage to infantry_heavy_med in melee than it does to infantry_med, let alone infantry_high, has got to be a bit out of whack. Erm, especially against sides that kinda just have infantry_heavy_med in T1...

[Frigidair44]

Opps. I didn't mean shoota damage... I meant big shoota damage (some sort of nerf on that, increased cost, damage reduction, availability point, ect).

Choppy is better for Orks. MANz would probably be fielded more often if there were available at tier 2 not 2.5.

It would give the Ork's some options since they are so damn linear right now.

[Xanthian]

Opps. I didn't mean shoota damage... I meant big shoota damage (some sort of nerf on that, increased cost, damage reduction, availability point, ect).

As it is, big shootas cost *the same* as a heavy bolter, have wildly *lower* damage values, on a far less durable unit, come in less heavy weapons per squad, and, indeed, get pulverized by any heavy bolter equivalent or tier 2 ranged unit that any other army can field.

Also, the shoota rush itself isn't really all that much cheaper than a chaos heavy bolter rush. Reinforcing the units is, but the banners you have to pay for to get it up and running in the first place isn't a cost that any other army has to absorb.

The only proposal I've heard to changing big shootas that won't have them never ever built again, would be to delay them by a banner. They have a rather large number of exploitable weaknesses as it is, I don't see why they need to be nerfed to the point where nobody builds them again. It won't change my build order personally, because I tend to see 'eavy armor as more important than a hit-or-miss early big shoota squad.

That, or move them to tier 2 and make them a *real* tier 2 heavy weapon. (Will be tricky to balance around shoota's fragility, would probably result in big shootas doing more damage than heavy bolters to be considered equivalent.)

The only real up-side they have right now is that they're buildable early without a dedicated tech, which makes them optionally massable without completely commiting your build to them, and therefore it becomes a hit and miss proposition when trying to counter them, a hard tech to bolters for SM or chaos requires missing out certain units and gives much more warning as a result.


See, I'd support giving Sluggas and Stormboyz better damage on the move, or buffing their base damage in melee....but in return I'd want the Big Mek's damage nerfed. He does stupid amounts of damage at the moment,

The day that I don't have to worry about sluggas being beaten up by tacs or csm is the day when I no longer have to risk exposing the mek in order to have a tier 1 melee force. Are you proposing a nerf to his commander damage too (perhaps in line with whatever 4 or 5 sluggas would gain vs commanders), or just inf_heavy_med? I'd much rather have my sole detector being protected on the sidelines with the shootas, and have no problem at all with your proposition.

The only real question mark is whether or not sluggas should be buffed to deal with necron warriors in melee, or necron warriors need a heavy melee nerf. And that's not one I'm even going to touch with a 10 foot pole. :p

As a compromise, how does buffing slugga damage to stormboy levels, maybe buffing both units a little higher equally, but changing stormboy damage to be dealt on the move sound? It would serve both weaknesses (sluggas would still be weak vs dancing, stormboys would still be a bad choice for a frontal assault unit, best left for sluggas) and yet distinguish the units while remaining true to fluff (a stormboy *is* a slugga with a jetpack).

[Vytae]

Completely depends on how the squad is set up, what special attacks he uses, good or bad rolls with the lottery gun, etc. 2 priest cs squad can kill him with losing 1 member if the squad retreats and reinforces after losing it, if I'm not mistaken, or a few guardsmen laying down fire can soften the mek up enough that psykers will gib him, as I've heard Chris suggest is his favourite tactic.

No. In straight up fight,barring luck or being damage befored hand,the big mek owns a 2 priest CS. Running away and reinforcing does not count. Paying 2x the hero cost to kill one is as good as a loss. Yes,damaging the big mek before hand enough will allow the CS to kill him. Imagine that,a damaged unit losing to an undamaged unit.


Hmm...in my experience a 2xPriest Command Squad beats even the Force Commander and Chaos Lord...with an additional reinforcement after the first member dies. It is a bit lottery though, like many of the Imperial Guards' things.

A 2 priest CS will quickly beat a CL with 1-2 members dead,depending on the lottery ;P

The FC however will lay the smack down on a 2 priest CS. Specially if hes on ranged. He wont have much hp left,but will beat the CS in short order. Yes again,running away to reinforce will allow the CS to beat him. But again your Gm squads will get mauled by the FC who 1-2 shots GM. Meaning running your CS away is as good as a loss.

Of course the Farseer needs her abilities to kill heros,her straight up combat stats suck,her fantastic abilities make up the difference.

[Xanthian]

Yes again,running away to reinforce will allow the CS to beat him. But again your Gm squads will get mauled by the FC who 1-2 shots GM. Meaning running your CS away is as good as a loss.

So basically what you're saying, vitae, is that you refuse to use the reinforcement trait of the command squad to your advantage?

That's just how the command squad works. Costs more to build and reinforce to full than any other commander, but can kill pretty much every commander with a 2x priest combo, needing a retreat in the middle to add an extra priest versus the more melee-heavy ones. (80/50 worst case scenario cost + 20 second retreat to kill any commander doesn't sound horrible to me, versus the minute and at least double that cost to rebuild the commander, but what would I know?) This is of course a complete hero vs hero vacuum situation, and ignores the fact that guardsmen outsquad a lot of armies as well, which is why I pointed out that guard can be used to soften a hero (due to being the outsquadding army).

[KotCR]

The FC however will lay the smack down on a 2 priest CS. Specially if hes on ranged.
I find the Force Commander switches to his crappy AoE attacks against the Command Squad, and as a result loses to 2x Priests.
Once again though, it could just be lottery.

Force Commander won't ever own the Command Squad on ranged. That's not because his ranged damage is poor (though in actuality for his cost it kinda is...Tacticals are better pre-Plasma Pistol :p ), it's just that he won't get to shoot the Command Squad if they don't want him too seems they move faster than he does.

[The_Guardman]

guardsmen outsquad a lot of armies as well
Have I miss a point here?

Btw, CS losing a member is an hard blow at the game's start. Reinforcing it is not cheap.

[KotCR]

But losing one or even two Command Squad members is cheaper than losing an entire other races' Hero though...right?

Which can make it worth it.

The only exception to losing two Command Squad members being more pricey than your opponent losing his hero is if one of the members that dies is the General (it normally is though lol), and your opponent is playing the Orks. More to the argument that the Big Mek is too good for his cost :p.

[Vytae]

But losing one or even two Command Squad members is cheaper than losing an entire other races' Hero though...right?

Depends on the hero. For example in the big meks case no,losing 2 cs members is not worth the cost of the big mek. (its also worth noting the CS pays a small squad tax).

And the FC on ranged owns the CS because of this: He gets in several shots when they close and when he does his special aoe attacks since he recovers before them he immediatley pulls out his pistol (if hes on range) and starts shooting them,getting in another few free shots. It makes a huge difference. Just because not to get lured into shooting up gm while they chisel down his life enough for a 2 priest CS to kill the FC.

And reinforcement on the CS is not a trait,advantage or bonus of any sort. Its a massive negative. Early game when you lose a member of your CS it instantly loses 33% of its combat effectiveness. Same reason why small squads of tougher units > bigger squads of weaker units. The original idea behind it was to keep the IG hero weak for fluff,but offer versatility. But since the commie is redundant (and therefore an extreme liability). But come DC its just because weakness.

Defeat in detail. Go wiki it.

[Xanthian]

Another way to look at it is that the command squad is just like manz or the seer council; reinforcing commander armor units are penalised for a member dying a lot less than a hero unit dying, since reinforce is both cheaper and faster than commander building, and they have the possibility of being used as a tanking unit a lot more, you don't just send them in until they're at half health, then retreat them until 1.5-2 tiers later when they're healthy again, you send them in, take your losses, and come back at full strength 20 seconds later. Only other units that can do this are the farseer (webway healing, never used) and the necron lord (phase shift, possibly stacked with phylactery).

I don't think anyone can claim the reinforce mechanic of the command squad is a weakness versus the other commanders, it's just the initial build + reinforce that sucks.

Perhaps more people can speak up on this? I seem to be laying out the stupid in droves lately.

[magicalcarpet]

Depends. Sure, you can recover a big chunk of life faster than a lone commander's regen. Lone commanders can attach though. Reinforcing isn't quick either, in the context of how insanely vital the CS is to IG. If the priest dies first, the CS is painfully ineffective for anything other than range stance vs. builders / capper.. it's not just the cost, it's the 35? seconds where you're quite vulnerable.

Personally, I find the real advantage of 3 members is that the regen is spread over 3 chunks of health and therefore the CS heals faster than other heroes.

[KotCR]

If the priest dies first, the CS is painfully ineffective for anything other than range stance vs. builders / capper
So long as he's not on his own (and therefore an easy target), and is still with the General, the Psyker is stull useful for his disruption, abilities, and detection. Even with the General dead if he's on his own, you can use him for his abilities and detection...though it would be wise to keep him behind your Guardsmen line till reinforcing is complete for the most part.

The Commissar is a bit redundant though till the Priest reappears.
Command Squad Commissar could really do with some sort of healing bonus like the regular Commissar offers, to make him a bit more worthwhile.

[Vytae]

Command Squad Commissar could really do with some sort of healing bonus like the regular Commissar offers, to make him a bit more worthwhile.

Problem is,in tier 1 that would make the CS fairly overpowered,which was why it was disabled for DC. Having your apothecaries or chappy regen 2/4x in tier 2 is one thing. Having your CS regenning 5hp/sec in TIER ONE is quite another. Making them morale immune would be moot aswell,as generally anything that can break the CS morale kills them first.

Magical carpet has explained why reinforcing your CS is bad. The pro's dont outweigh the cons. And if your not goin double priest,and your priest dies first your CS instantly loses hp,speed and atk power in addition to the 33% overall loss. The speed is the real crippling part. The general has only FC speed without the priest,and is far far more fragile.

[KotCR]

Problem is,in tier 1 that would make the CS fairly overpowered,which was why it was disabled for DC.
While this is true, there would be no harm to giving him it in T2.

Come T2, regular Commies get Execute, so the Command Squad Commie can get a Health Regen bonus. I don't really see any issues with such a simple change...kinda hard to keep the Command Squad alive later on in the game without Fanaticism as it is.

[magicalcarpet]

Ah, the t2 Commisar is the bane of my existance. I always luck out and have the Commisar survive as long as possible, with the General and Priest repeatedly dying. Though, to be honest, I usually only get the Commisar vs. SM, Necrons and *sometimes* Chaos. Necrons are moot because I lose painfully anyway and I really only get him vs. Chaos for ranged damage to builders / cappers.

edit: this thread is about MANz.. i'd support a buildtime decrease on them.