How to play Vaygr well

[WunderGoat]

After seeing so many posts and threads flaming Vaygr as an underpowered race, I felt that it was neccesary to create a thread where the uneducated and misinformed might learn a bit about this misunderstood race.

Primarily I would like any Vaygr players to post their strategies and observations on playing Vaygr and tips on defeating some of the more difficult/dangerous threats to Vaygr (i.e. battlecruisers, gunships, flak, ect.)

Unfortunately its late, so i'll just jot down observations for now and write about tactics later.

Observations:
1) Vaygr teching is much different from Hiig teching, but suits the Vaygr philosphy/play style better. This may confuse Hiig players into thiking that the Vaygr system is worse.

2) Vaygr carriers are cheaper by around 40-50% than their Hiig conterparts. This means that you can have greater production/resourcing earlier in the game and thus better use your early game strengths. The lack of multiple production slots is the price you pay

3) Vaygr strike craft are exceptional when properly mixed. They tend to suck bad when not. (i.e. lances can get hurt bad when soloing gunships. In a big, messy dogfight, they cut gunships down like corn). You also have more slots for said strike craft.

4) Since they do not need to get the advanced research module, vaygr can get destroyers faster. Their destroyers also have a more powerful "first strike" thanks to thier massive missile volley.

5) More strike craft per group means more squads make it home to get repairs. As you also have more carriers, you can repair far faster than a hiig frigate fleet. Also, i have noticed that vette squads tend to split into pairs. This makes it less likely that torp frigs/pulsars will kill of an entire squadron (unless told to kill a specific squade, but that brings up other problems)

6) Vaygr BC has better "first strike" capability than the Hiig BC, making it more effective as a hyper-raider

7) Innacuracy of various strike craft is either moot, non-existant, or eaily fixable. ACs miss a whole lot, true. But they also come 2 more to a group and tend to spray the entire enemy squadron. Lance fighters are dead accurate msot of the time, as the shoot only at pointblank range. Laser vettes and bombers hit subsystems and anything bigger than a frig just fine. I don;t know about MCs, as i tend to focus on laser vettes in my swarm.

8) CCs make a huge difference and i haven't had trouble keeping them alive when i set them to gaurd my ACs (the big sweeping passes of ACs means that the CC moves a whole lot) i also believe that ship AI does not recognize CCs as immidiate targets and focuses on ships with guns.

9) Hyper gates are incredibly useful. With disruption probes, they make for excellent sneak attacks/ raiding bases. Send some of your prolific carriers to these bases, and you are even mroe dangerous (note: carriers can't use the gate).

Thats all for now, my personal strategies/tactics will follow tommorow afternoon

[Sandalpocalypse]

All good points.

I would add--

You minimize the disadvantages if you move in close.

Heavy Missile Frigates are BRUTAL.

In the end, upgraded Vaygr ships are just better.

Laser Corvettes are your friend, but Missile corvettes are the most general purpose strikecraft in the game.

[WunderGoat]

Just a few of my tactics for the swarm strat:

1) Start by making loads ACs followed by Lances. Lances have trouble with vettes alone, but in the thick of things they rock. Then make laser vettes out of your next 2 carriers. You should have lots of vettes in no time at all. When this is done, now you raid some choice targets.
a) Attack his staging ground. If you can kill off his fleet, he won;t be able to react quickly. You can then run back and heal up and then attack RU spots unimpeded. This is also not expected and may allow you a quick win with an attack on the mothership.
b) kill some RU ops. The swarm has excellent speed and later on is even faster with hyper gates. Kill carrier first, refiernies second, collectors third. This way you slow him down the maximum possile amount.
c) go mod hunting on his MS and/or shipyard. Attack with your swarm and micro your laser vettes to shoot off his expensive modules. Adv. research module, gravwells, and cap ship facilites are primary targets.
d) a full swarm of 11 ACs, 7 lances, and 10-12 laser vettes will take down a mothership easily. If your opponent is not protecting himself well, kill him right off the bat. (Note: some players prefer to keep thier strike craft in carriers. Try and see if it looks like he's rigged for making strike craft (i.e. look at his modules) If he is and you feel confident, kill the carriers first. Otherwise, hit and fade on his resource op)
I like to stick all my swarm in one strike group, and them assign the compnent ships to individual subgroups. This way i can band-box attack a fleet and they go for what they are best against. I can also use the laser vettes to micro kill dangerous/juicy targets such as carriers and flaks.
Teching is also a good strategy with Vaygr. With only a research module you can tech all theway to lvl 2 cheaply. I believe fighter speed lvl 2 can be gained for under 1600 and is well worth it.

A note to other posters, plase stick anything you think is useful down. Critique these tactics. The point for this thread is to try and make some really good tactics for vaygr players.

[The5thElephant]

Really excellent points. This could help me out a lot.

:elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:

[Tirinal]

The only problem I have with Vaygr is their upgrade tree. As the specialized race it makes no sense for them to have to pay for ALL of the upgrades in any given class. Moreover, in HW2 you are far more likely to only focus on one unit per level since by spreading your forces out over multiple tiers you can have more of them because of the way unit limits are structured. I hate it, its the one reason I don't play Vaygr. That, and the fact that Higarians get hyperspace upgrades, which come in very very handy and make for better hit n' run tactics than the weak, immobile hypergates do.

By the way, does anyone know if the Vaygr frigate upgrades also enhance the Infiltrator Frigate? Just curious.

[WunderGoat]

The group upgrades increase all units in a class, including scouts and infiltrators.
As for the tech tree, you only pay to tech the units you need (250 for lance, 400 for MC, 400 for laser). The big place where cost go down are in the group upgrades. It is comparitvly cheap to fully upgrade any class compared to hiig. Yes, it seems odd for a specialist race to have the universal upgrade, but it is nearly as cheap for vaygr to up a class as it is for hiig to up a single type of unit. Once you get used to it, you realize its a huge advantage.
Hiig has flexibility in the fast access to all units, vaygr has specialization in its quick teching. Not to mention that vaygr upgrades give more to your units.
Gates are absolutely dirt-cheap hyperspacing at only 2500 for an infinite use corridor.
With vaygr you can;t make a bit of everything right away, as hiig can. Focus on a cetain type of ship early and get the upgrades (i.e. AC, lances, lvl 2 speed). I think this is one area where hiig players have trouble adapting.

[Tirinal]

Although you do save overall with Vaygr upgrades as opposed to Higarian if you upgrade everything, most eveyone does not. Assault frigates are generally crap, as are missle corvettes. If I want to increase the efficiency of my heavy missle frigates or lance corvettes, however, I have to pay to upgrade the other units as well.

As for the hyperspace gates, I must disagree with you. Although they work fine in theory, in actual multiplayer matches they are far too fragile to be used efficiently. Even with disruptor probes it is very easy to figure out if someone has a hyperspace gate nearby, at which point you simply send in the bombers which destroy it in one wave. Thats 1750 down the drain. As Higarian you can warp in a carrier filled with strike craft for far less due to their hyperspace upgrades. This works even better than gates since you have a resupply/repair center nearby for your strike craft when they harass the enemy.

[tigrali]

i disagree with you about the hyperspace gates. they work very well, you just need to place them in not so obvious spots if used for offensive means, or if my carriers and ms are spread out really far, i use the gates as a way to quickly reinforce whoever is being attacked (my carriers or my ms). And yes, I've done this a few times successfully during multiplayer, though i must admit i forget about researching the gates sometimes

[Sandalpocalypse]

Big advantages of gate is that you can gate back home if you really need to, you don't need to keep your strikecraft locked in the carrier, and that you can transport Frigates and Destroyers

[Tirinal]

Well, okay. But one wave of bomber fire will take down a gate. Since you can't kill the bombers before they kill the gate, your only chance of keeping the thing alive is to keep it hidden--which lasts all of 2 seconds when I decide to use ping. The cost of ping is well worth it even if I only kill one gate (1000 vs. 1750), especially since there is always a chance I'll kill it before all the frigates manage to warp, in which case they are as good as dead. Using a hyperspace gate is very risky, and more often than not a good player will nullify the benefits of the thing before you get any real usage out of it.

[Seb00]

The main purpose of gates, in my opinion, is to get Destroyers to the front line as quick as the rest of the ridiculously fast Vaygr forces. I use it as more of a super-rally point than much else, between carriers and my flagship and MAYBE a shipyard if I even have one. Sometimes it's really worth it to be able to move those big slow pieces of crap, especially when you just lost a bunch of laser corvettes to a blitz of pulsars (which is something another good player will try to do if you split your forces and stay attacking different objectives constantly, like the Vaygr are built for in my opinion) .

When I play Vaygr, I go for double fighter facilites to just get the enemy on the defensive. Once he's on defense and I'm on offense, the game is half over. Don't kill yourself trying to get high level ships, but be sure to get to Lance fighters and at least at SOME point get to laser corvettes - gunships will kill your ACs in the beginning, then Flak will do so also, so you always have to stay 2 steps ahead of your opponent. At least have the options RESEARCHED because if you don't it'll take forever for the slow Vaygr tech tree to give you those options.

The largest ship I make as Vaygr is the Destroyer, and I really hardly make them. I think that once the Vaygr player is on offense and the Hiigaran player on defense, the Vaygr player can stop the Hiig player from getting large fleets of capships (gogo bomber run!!:flamer:) unless there is a large descrepancy between the skill levels of the two players in question.

Also, and important thing to do is get a second carrier semi-early (depends how well your fighters are doing) . That's insanely important-- you NEED to outnumber the enemy. It's also important to USE your carriers in attacks. Yeah, yeah, Vaygr fighters have worse eyesight than slanty asian people (hey I'm korean so I'm allowed to say it :tongue:) but don't go through all the bother of researching and getting a Command Corvette -- just build a fire control tower on your carrier! Plus, you can constantly be docking fighters left and right, which is a HUGE benefit especially with the large squads that Vaygr have. Remember not to tell more than 3 or 4 squads to dock at once though -- they'll crowd each other and be sitting ducks. Instead of docking fighters in "chunks", try to constantly be telling 1 squad to dock, maybe every 6 or 7 seconds (depending, of course, on the circumstances of the battle) .

NEVER use bombers in your main attack fleet unless your opponent has SOMEHOW got a battlecruiser-- always send your bombers above or around to the enemy production ships while you're fighting his fleet. This takes timing and planning, but it can easily set the enemy back if you kill research and a capship fac on his shipyard (see what I mean? just don't let him get bc's!) ... the only way to fight that off is with great scouting and good control of fighters (which many people don't have) or , basically, platforms. And if you've made him build defensive (NOT OFFENSIVE) platforms, in my experience, the game is over. Bring in your lasers.

In a 2-player or 4-player map, the Vaygr player shouldn't have altogther too much of a problem winning against a decent Hiigaran player. At least not as much trouble as people on this forum make it out to be (I admit- I was one of them before :rolleyes:) .

My points:
Don't go out of your way for big ships
Dual fighter fac rush!! unless the map is too big
Always research craft 2 steps ahead; don't let him counter you
Use bombers on enemy subsystems, not in battle
Use carriers extensively
Make him fear the swarm!!

[Tirinal]

Why not just warp the destroyer in instead of relying on hyperspace gates?

I agree with the rest of the points though. Thats really how Vaygr are meant to be played.

[Tholith]

The Gate will pay for itself, saving ur harversters, moving your troops around and save a butt load of cash moving those destroyers back and forth, which can be used for building another destroyer!

[Psycho-SoniC]

I found Vaygr fighters MUCH more usefull than their Hiigaran counterparts. This for reasons:

- Ability to switch to corvette-countering Lancers
- Availability to upgrade to lvl 2 fighter engines right of the start

This allows good flexibility in early game. Especially as your bombers with lvl 2 engines are very fast and can outrun even interceptors chasing them.

[WunderGoat]

Indeed, and don't forget that vaygr scouts get the speed upgrade, too (at least i think so) Sure, they don't have sensor ping, but can you think of a better EMP raider? Just knock out collectors and run away home.

[ZetaZhan]

Am i wrong? I thought destroyers couldnt use hypergates??

am i wrong?/

[jinpachi]

wow - best strat thread so far

[Tholith]

ZetaZhan

Your WRONG, they can use Gates.

[Mandorallen]

Yupp gates = Dessie tunnels

[crobato]

I'm trying to learn Vagyr strats. Bump the thread up for more people to get attention and add their thoughts.

[GIMPbeowulf]

One of the most powerful units the vaygr have is the laser vette... those things will tear through frigates, platforms, workers, and all sorts of that kind of thing with great efficiency. A horde of assault craft also make for a nice raiding party with surprising firepower for a non-specialized base level unit. 10 groups or so can bring down a working quite quickly.

Personally, what I like to do is skip frigates until after destroyers. While heavy missile frigates absolutely rock (much better than ions, IMO) a destroyer does basicly the same thing and is more convenient to get to. If you want frigates you need to research the chasis for a grand and then make the module for another grand. For destroyers you just research it for 2 grand... same price but faster. You already need the supercap fascility since you want more carriers so that's not really a consideration. What I usually end up doing is getting fighters up and going then some carriers and laser vettes come out at the same time. Once I've built a carrier or two I'll build destroyers and carriers alternating as needed and use a carrier to make the shipyard.

It just seems to me like frigates are out of the way and chances are you aren't going to have lots of strike craft problems with such a swarm of your own so assault frigs probably aren't high on your list of priorities and since destroyers are just about as fast (and more convenient) than the missile frigs, no real reason to build them either.

[GUTB]

Alright. Time for the nightly round of Facts:

1. Assault Crafts have crap accuracy. FACT.

2. Pulsars > Missile and Laser. FACT.

3. Vaygr carriers SUCK because they have only one ship type facility, which is NOT ENOUGH for this game. FACT.

4. Hypergates are useless in MP, and lets get real we all know it. FACT.

5. Hiigaran tech up faster and cheaper. FACT.

[GIMPbeowulf]

Originally posted by GUTB
Alright. Time for the nightly round of Facts:

1. Assault Crafts have crap accuracy. FACT.

2. Pulsars > Missile and Laser. FACT.

3. Vaygr carriers SUCK because they have only one ship type facility, which is NOT ENOUGH for this game. FACT.

4. Hypergates are useless in MP, and lets get real we all know it. FACT.

5. Hiigaran tech up faster and cheaper. FACT.
Haha... let's see...

1. Assault craft beat interceptors 1v1 and kill other things faster becaue of greater numbers and thus more firepower. FACT.

2. Lasers do a ton more damage to workers frigs and up than pulsars. FACT.

3. Vaygr carriers are a lot cheaper, build much faster, and you get more of them meaning you can increase your production much faster and farther. FACT.

4. Usually this is true but from time to time they're convenient.

5. Vaygr can get destroyers real fast and don't require an advanced research module. Hiigarans actually have more things to research because you must do speed and armor for each unit. This does allow specialization which is nice tho.

[ArchonXVI]

Wow, half your facts are wrong. Lasers kill caps and frigs far, far, far faster than any other corvette. Missiles will kill pulsars if both are upgraded fully. Assault Craft have poor accuracy, but when you fire 2x as many shots, it all works out. Vaygr carriers are 1000 cheaper, though they are worse. Hypergates are rarely useful. Higarians tech up single things faster, though if you want to focus on corvettes, (like I do) vagyr are /much/ faster and cheaper.

[WunderGoat]

First of all, go to the clan SITH stat page (look at the stat thread) under special to see thier tests on unit vs unit. And a thing on teching. Using the info on the SITH page, Vaygr grouptech is equal to 2 hiig single tech in the same class in the following classes: fighters, frigate speed, and frigate lvl 2 armor. It is 100 over higgy price for frigate lvl 1 armor. It is over a thousand over on armor and speed for capships, when compared to higgy BC and DD upgrades. Vette upgrades on average are over by about 100 or so, but the upgrades are far better. When calculated out, higgy lvl 2 speed for 2 vettes is about 3 RU cheaper per point of speed boost, but is .05 below (1.35 vs 1.4). On armor vaygr is 50RU more efficient for lvl 2 than hiig, but is a full .4 better (1.6 to 2, lvl 1 is 1.3 to 1.5). Methods for calcualting cost per point was (total cost/total multiplier).

Arguing facts and numbers is not fun, lets keep this on Vaygr STRATS, not "Bash Vaygr" If you have an idea, post it. If you think an idea is bad, post a better one. Simple enough. All you prove by bashing posts is that
a) You are a noob or are not very perceptive
b) You really don't care and have no buisiness posting
c) You are not intellectualy competant enough to think in abstract terms such as "strategy" and are limited to simple power comparisons like "BC > DD".

Lets not have any more meaningless arguments.

[Miguel]

Lancers have more bang for your buck than any other ship in the game.

[32bit]

GUTB have you even played as the Vaygr? your points are mostly wrong.

1) This is balanced out by the fact that the Vaygr have a) command corvettes and b) have more fighters per squadron than the hiigarans

2) not really, laser corvettes are not designed for the anti-corvette role, and it really doesnt matter if the Pulsar has an advantage over the missile corvette, because the Vaygr have a more diverse range of anti-corvette ships.

3) Low in hp they may be but I find it funny when you spend 2800 RUs on a carrier, plus another 2800 to get it up and running with all the various subsystems, and then my laser corvettes snuff it out. On the other hand, i have a cheap 1800 RU carrier, with another 1000 spent on various subsystems. FACT

On top of that, if you've noticed, you can build ONE unit at a time from production capable ships. You've got 4 production slots on your carrier, with only 1 of them being used. I can do exactly the same thing, except I dont have to fork out over 4000 rus to get a fully upgraded carrier. I can also afford to spread out my production ships a little.

4) No.... just.. no.

5) In some circumstances, yes, but I would like to c you get a Hiigaran destroyer out faster than a Vaygr one, and upgrade every single subgroup of ship in a class (i.e fighters, capital ships) at the same time.

Seriously, go out and play as the Vaygr... more than a few times.

[WunderGoat]

Just hammering out some more numbers:
A swarm of 11 ACs, 7 Lances, 2 Missile vettes and 10 Laser vettes, with lvl 2 ftr speed and lvl 1 vette armor and speed, including all other techs to get these units excluding module cost is 21,350 RU. Keep in mind that this swarm will crush a ms is under a minute and will kill destroyers, frigates, and even vettes with little or no trouble. According to resourcer fill loads, this is a mere 106 loads worth (colletors make a load every 50 seconds, assuming equal load and dropoff times). As most players make at least 10 collectors, this swarm should be reached in about the same time it takes for most players to rush a BC out of production. Also remember that with more that 10 collectors this time will decrease rather drasticly.

I know the creation of a swarm like this is not likely to occur in MP, but its a good reference point.

[32bit]

Oh yeh... the only problem I have with the Vaygr is their lack of a counter or even an equivalent to Hiigaran ping.

[Timeless]

I form a swarm complete with EMP, Interceptors, Lance fighters, 4 missle vettes and laser vettes in every game I play--at least for now, as I enjoy this build very much atm. Heavy missle frigs own when your swarm is eating up enemy strike craft opposition and tearing up destroyers, flaks, torpedo frigs and whatever else that gets in its way. I'm exploring all types of builds right now and have been purposely limiting myself to nothing larger than frigates in 1on1s and in my team games, my allies take care of fielding the destroyers and BCs. Even if they don't make any BCs and the enemy does, the swarm has no problem disabling the BCs engines, hyperspace module and ion turret. Your heavy missle frigates will quickly dispatch enemy production ships, other frigates, harvesters, you name it. Of course, stopping at frigates is not necessary, only something I'm doing for a few games to see how powerful frigates and swarms can be even against destroyers and BCs should you not be able to field them yourself.


Timeless_OMO

[GUTB]

You people are actually trying to argue that Vaygr matches up or is even supperior?

Bull.

Yes there are a lot of ACs in a squad...so it looks even dumber when you see all these ACs shooting at one Int, and MISSING COMPLETELY for the ENTIRE PASS. This happens regularily. It is annoying as hell to sit and wait and wait and WAIT for these things to hurry up and kill the bombers that are swarming my units. On the other hand, Ints cut through Vagyr bombers and ACs with little trouble.

Torp frigs RAPE vets -- yes, laser vets too. This is because in a realistic combat scenario, the vets are engaged in a furball with other enemies, with the torps sitting back taking plinking your vets like they are nothing. Vaygr has nothing that does the same to vets -- FACT.

Yes Vaygr carriers are cheap, and YES THEY SUCK. It is a huge pain to have to bring in re-enforcments from the ms or another carrier just because they can only pump out one ship type at a time. I will grant that they do have a quick resource drop-off, but that hardly makes them better than the Hiig unit. FACT.

Command vets are USELESS because they always die moments after entering combat. Am I supposed to micromanage them throught the battle in order to keep them alive by taking advantage of flawed AI routines? Screw it, they are just useless (somewhat like marine frigs, except moreso).

The only units that I can think of that are clearly more powerful than Hiig counterparts are the heavy missile frigs and lancers (but only because there is no hiig unit like it). Yes the BC is very powerful but it is so easy to disable its just a joke.

[Timeless]

ROFL.

Man, you just have to play the races differently, that is all. I have used Vaygr almost exclusively since the game came out and have lost only one or two games. Our fighters have better armor when upgraded fully than those of the Hiigaran fleet, are more numerous in their squads and we are allowed to build 4 more squads of strike craft. My early swarm build includes EMP and a an extra carrier before the 9 minute mark so I can produce ships even faster. Initially, the emp blasts negate any accuracy issues, allowing my passing fighters to annihilate my opponent's strike craft in but a few passes. These EMP scouts are escorted by no less than 4 early assault craft and as many lance fighters as you can muster. Lance fighters are only average vs enemy strike craft, but excel greatly at eliminating corvettes and subsystems--with EMP, however, lance fighters easily rape enemy interceptors and bombers as well. While this is happening, the second carrier pops out and you can now build two corvette facilities--one on the mothership, one on the new carrier. I usually make 2 to 4 missle corvs, then switch to laser vettes. Once a full force of vettes has been fielded, mixed with all of your strike craft, you can either go for frigs, destroyers or for a shipyard/BC. Currently, I prefer going heavy missle frigs at this stage as they absolutely maul other frigates, production ships, workers, etc. The swarm, with EMP, fighters, corvs, judiscious use of fire control platforms and/or commander corvs will eat up enemy frigates--whether they be flaks or torpedo frigates, it doesn't make a difference. It will also, obviously, protect your frigates from enemy strike craft or platforms...not to mention a swarm's mobility.

This is, in a nutshell, how I currently play Vaygr. I switch it up a bit, but wanted to give just one example. Once you get the Vaygr tech tree and timing down, you'll realize how powerful they can be. Since I'm not having a difficult time winning matches playing as Vaygr, it leads me to believe that you have not fully explored this race's potential or just generally don't know what you are doing.

Oh, and though Vaygr carriers can only produce from one facitlity bay at a time, their carriers produce more quickly and at like half the cost--getting a second carrier early is a cake-walk. Within minutes, you can be fielding ships from a fighter bay and two corv facilities. Also, the Vaygr fighter tree allows for counters in several catagories, therefore potentially allowing a person, should they choose to do so, to effectively counter almost everything thrown at him or her early game using ONLY FIGHTERS. In fact, using EMP, one could easily disable several Flak frigs, for example, and mop them up using bombers and lance fighters. This advantage alone, namely the ability to counter corvettes using the lance fighter, makes up for the lack of additional bays on the Vaygr carrier.

As a last note, if your command corvettes are dying before you have gained an advantage from them, you are doing something horribly wrong. Mine survive well enough all the time.


Timeless_OMO

[AngryAndroid]

Tempest I was very interested to see what you had to say about frigates in your previouse post (page 2). Although its only been a few days, I'm slightly frustrated at my complete inability to make frigates survive longer than just a few minutes against a comparably sized strike group. This is against any level AI where the strike group has a DD in it.

Although I'm actualy finding winning these engagments relatively easy, my strike craft and DD's own their counterparts giving me victory after victory.

What I do right now is have either my fighters or capital ships at the front with the frigates adding anti capital/corvet/fighter support. But the enemy destroyer(s) target the friagtes first, although the destroyer(s) will be dying quite badly while this goes on, those frigates just appear to be expensive cannon fodder.

What if any advice can you give?

Cheers, AA

[32bit]

I agree with Tempest. There are counters to almost everything in this game, its just a matter of knowing where and when to use them.

[monco]

i don't know about you guys but HS gates are the only thing that keep me alive and in the running. i usually have one carrier in the middle resource patch with 10 resource collectors and 2 refineries, granted they're protected with plats but those just slow down a massive assault. the moment i see the enemy send a huge strike force to my weak vulnerable resource collection patch i hyper in some fighters, and slow them down while my resource collectors get as much cash as they can, then when the situation is bleak, instead of losing everything, all my collectors and refineries hyper using the gate, while the assault craft tear as much ass then hyper out and the carrier, well that's the only thing that might not make it back.

i repeat this tactic successfully, especially later in the game, i assault a lightly defended resource patch install a HS gate, hyper in everything i need, and wait for the enemy to send all his BC's & destroyers then escape.

note on the carrier, you have to play with what modules you'll build and scuttle when the action starts, sometimes it better to have 2 carriers, one to hyper both in/out, and another for the gravwell generator.

[Mikk]

Damnit people you are making me scared of the vaygr even before I see them in action ingame at all... gotta figure out how to kick ya ass damnit

[Tirinal]

I more or less agree with everything Tempest said. Good post.

One thing though: would you mind terribly explaining to me how exactly it is that Lance Fighters are good against capital ship subsystems? I know the manual says they are, but if you try it out you'll find that they are horrendous at it. I just ran some tests against an easy AI and it turns out that Assault Craft are almost as good at destroying modules as Lance Fighters are.

[Timeless]

Well, I typically don't produce bombers as they weaken certain aspects of my fighter swarm and laser vettes fill this role nicely enough. I only start targeting subsystems once my swarm has grown a bit so perhaps it is the mass number of strike craft and not the lances themselves. It's obvious that of all the fighters, bombers are the best suited for stripping subsystems but my current build/fighting style leaves little room for them.

[Freakshow]

in late game, the vaygr BC is just better then the higgy one if you can keep pesky bombers away from your engines

[Cyrai]

That may be, but the Vagyr players should be doing everything possible to stop you from getting a BC at all. If you're playing against a good Vagyr, you'ld be hard pressed to get one.

[GIMPbeowulf]

I agree with you about the unit caps preventing bombers from being built. However, if someone isn't making corvettes then you don't need lances and then bombers aren't a bad choice. In single player I constantly had all my fighter slots filled with bombers but in multi with vaygr I like to keep my fighters versatile and that means assault craft with a few lances... laser vettes are for packing the punch--and oh boy do they do that.

[Timeless]

Originally posted by AngryAndroid
Tempest I was very interested to see what you had to say about frigates in your previouse post (page 2). Although its only been a few days, I'm slightly frustrated at my complete inability to make frigates survive longer than just a few minutes against a comparably sized strike group. This is against any level AI where the strike group has a DD in it.

What if any advice can you give?

Cheers, AA

*Use Infiltrator frigates (2 to 4 of them) to lead your attacks, if you can, to steal the enemy destroyers. Every once in a while, you might get away with their destroyer, but they will always take enemy fire for your heavy missle frigates, allowing them just enough precious time to plow through the heaviest hitters of the enemy fleet.

*Make an early carrier so you can field frigates from two production facilities early on. By about 8 or 9 minutes, your second carrier should be complete and your fighter/corv swarm should be a rather significant force--whether faced with early skirmishes or not. While the enemy can get to destroyers quickly, he can produce only one at a time until an expensive shipyard is constructed. When using frigates, make sure to use them in force.

*Map control and scouting is key. Ideally, it is best to use your frigates where enemy destroyers are not, allowing your swarm to eliminate them instead.

*Split your frigate force into two groups if appropriate. It doesn't take many missle frigs to take down a carrier/harvesting ops if the enemy has to focus on the main battle engagement. Use your greater numbers, speed and flexibility to the fullest.

*It isn't always feasible, but sometimes you might be able to send in a hyper platform above an enemy resource ops, hyper in, kill their carrier and harvestors, then hyper right back to safety through the hyper gate. Timing and keeping the enemy occupied elsewhere is crucial. Tons of fun stuff like this that can be done.

*If the game goes on long enough, don't hesitate to make your own destroyers and/or BCs.


Hope it helps.

Timeless_OMO

[Gunjak]

the Vaygr are too specialised for me, it takes quite a few upgrades to get tehm top notch, as many have said, a mixed combo is deadly, however the only unit i have a real problem is the hyper space gate, i know how to use it, its just placing, also defense field frigs are inhibitors also so you often get cut off in journey and end up battling something you really dont want to.

[Cap_Man_Can]

I just enjoy playing with Vaygr because they're purdy like.:fallen:

[Wirlwind]

I like the Vaygr but i seem to have more luck with the higs... oh well...but yeah...
@ tempest lance fighters do about jack squat to modules so it has to be the numbers your using. i think i'll start using these strats...seem simple but effective.

[DB_Nazgorn]

I'm curious, sometimes when I have a BC for the Vaygr, it will never fire it's trinity cannon. And when it does, it targets random things...Is there any way to target with the trinity cannon and actually get it to fire every time???

[tigrali]

ok, here's my vaygr story in a 2v2 with a guy called echo.

early game, i que'd up 6 collectors from my carrier and 2 refineries and a couple of scout squadrons, and an advanced sensory array

the enemy were both on the offensive from the get-go, and plats saved my ass in the beginning from the swarm of bombers/ac.
i built a firecontrol tower on my ms, and build about 8-10 plats overall to defend my first expansion and my "home" base. the plats fended off the early bomber rush and allowed me to assess my enemy.My buddy was getting creamed from both guys, but was a smart player and set us up a link so i could send reinforcementws quickly. Yes, they blew up the gate 3 diff. times, but it never stopped me from getting over there and supporting him. When i managed my time, I quickly built another carrier and saw lots of vettes so i began building the laser fighters which decimated the attacking foes vettes. i built a few frigs and then mid game my enemy rushed me with missle vettes and about 8 missle plats and a few gun plats, and lo and behold, those laser fighters came to the rescue. With all my fighting i forgot to que up fighters and such and began having lots of money, so i researched a destroyer and had a few built up by the end game.
Some advice would be to get the repair upgrade mid/end game, they saved a few of my 4 destroyers. I ended up having lots of lance fighters witha few ac to support them, and i built up lots of laser vettes which took out a few destroyers. We played well as a team, and even though I thought we were gonna lose (because their fighters/early vettes scared me at first AND i couldn't get to my buddy in time (w/o the hs gate)), we pulled it together and took the victory! That was probably one of the best, hard fought matches I've played.

[AngryAndroid]

OMG, I hate it when you accidentaly press somthing like alt+backspace and then IE delets everything that you have OR jumps 'back' to the previous page. ****ing hell going to need to start again.

Thanks for the advice Tempest. From what you've said I've actualy managed to get some frigates to survive a few encounters. However, the pesky AI actualy bothered to adapt to what I was doing then sent a large wave of anti frigate ships at me, totaly wiping out that particular strike group.

I think the problem with the Vaygr for me and few others is the tech tree, It's just going to take some getting used to. I've managed to find a usefull Vaygr stratagy though, its fairly simple but its been used with some success:

I built a very visible large 'swarm' of strike craft for my opposition to see. While I was churning out as many as I could without reducing my resources too much, I was constructing at a hiden carier (with a hyperspace module) as many heavy missle frigates as possible with a few assault frigates. When the inevitable anti strike craft group arrived to attack, I hypered in the frigates to the flank of the enemy strike group and watched as the opponant was decimated in a matter of about a minute. Not only that, but because it was timed fairly well, most of the strike craft were able to be saved and repaired.

Simple, but effective, maybe I'm getting the hang of this who knows.

[GIMPbeowulf]

That's one of the nice things about a mature vaygr swarm, lance fighters and laser vettes chew right through the typical counters and the rest of the units aren't helpless either.

[Eiden]

Hiigaran is very much the underdog, especially on small maps. Why? Because of EMP. First of all, vaygr has more fighter slots in it's unit cap (18 to hiigs 14), second, it only needs 1 research module for 500 RU, and it's EMP research cost is 1000 RU. Hiig needs a 1500 RU research mod and anther 1500 for EMP. Vag can start producing more fighters sooner, plus (contrary to popular belief) vag fighters squads eat hiig ones alive. When I play vayg and I fighter rush, it's extremely easy to dominate even over a hiig with ints and EMP scouts.

[AntaresSITH]

eiden is right..
vaygr gets EMP faster and cheaper than hig.
but i dont think EMP will be the key.

like an EMP rusher uses micro to max out the EMP efficiency his enemy can max out the efficienty of whatever unit he got.

and it also takes some time to get 10 scout squads.
just scouts with EMP aren't really THAT beating strat IMO.

e.g refs need several EMP for being disabled and scouts lack the firepower to take out what they stunned.

humm... plz letz all hope, that scout EMP rush isnt the only strat for small maps :(

[Eiden]

EMP is always useful, I use it in fighter-to-fighter or vette combat at any stage of the game. The only problem with it is that it's available pretty early for a pretty low cost, and there really aren't any known early-game counters for it yet. Except maybe flack frigs:

Here's the cost to get 2-3 flak frigs out -
1500+2250+1000 (mods) = 4750
700*(2 or 3) = 1400-2100
total 6150 to 6850 RU

for vaygr, cost to get a batch of emp scouts and interceptors
500+500+1000 (mods+research) = 2000
8 scouts * 350 = 2800
7 ints * 500 = 3500
total 8300 RU

So it's just a question of time - who can get what sooner.

[GIMPbeowulf]

Counters?
Scouts can't do much of anything combat wise even if it's a sitting target so they're sacrificing combat units for scouts with EMP. Therefore you should have a good bit more in the way of combat units.

[Eiden]

That's the thing: combat units are useless unless they can fight back. The scouts with EMP prevent that since they disable more than half the enemy fighters on the first pass.

However, I've done a couple of timing tests, and I found that vaygr can have a full compliment of fighters (like 12 scouts 6 'ceptor) by 5 minutes, but without EMP until about 6 minutes. By 7:10 or so, hiig can have 6 flak frigates that are lvl 1 upgraded. Even 10 scouts would not be able to knock out all 6 frigates, so there's a good chance that flak rushing would be a decent taaw counter to an EMP-equipped vaygr rush.

[Wirlwind]

as a vaygr player i have to ask: how do you use the ass. frigs. i find them generally useless against anything

[Timeless]

I only make about 6 squads of scouts to mix in with the rest of my swarm and replace them if I need or want to. The first thing I research in this build is EMP, then lance, then 1st level fighter upgrade, then vettes. This leaves me with 12 squads of combat strike craft and 12 vette squads. If my recon shows me that my opponent is going for a flak frig rush (adv research mod w/ frig module), I might decide to make bombers instead of lances to eliminate the advanced research module. My opponent should be weak on fighter defense if he is going this route, so I will hit his workers early to disrupt his plans. If he manages to get a few flaks out, I will attempt to eliminate them before he can mass more than two or three. If he somehow has time to make more than three flaks, I will have also had time to make laser corvs to deal with them. EMP can then be used to either shut down SOME of the flaks to strengthen the odds in my favor or to EMP his workers and knock out his resourcing for 30 seconds per interval.

[Alpha_1]

Eiden this is HW2 not HW:C, it is Hiigaran, not Somtaaw, hehehehehehe.

ANYWAY....

Tactical diversity, that is what the vaygr are all about, each role has a ship specialized to it, this means the vay can switch directions on the fly with little impact, not so with Hiigy.

Single production slots + 8 production lines (MS, 6 carriers, and SY) means that vay can have 2 lines for each ship type. On the higy side it is 6, this gives vay a greater versatility in responding to the flow of the game.

In any prod spot except for MS and SY, you have only one type of ship being produced, sure you have different types in that class, but only one class to build. With higgy you have 3 classes in 4 prod lines (carriers) and have to actually cancel builds if you are not already maxed in a class, this means it take more time to respond to the situation at hand than it does for a vay.

Each of these differences need to be taken into consideration when you play, if you want to be good at either side you will need to learn how best to play for each side, especially so you can win out against an equally skilled player using the opposite race.

PS: SY = shipyard

[dej2]

Originally posted by Wirlwind
as a vaygr player i have to ask: how do you use the ass. frigs. i find them generally useless against anything

From what I can tell... we have 18 fighter squadrons Higgs have 14. Higgs will supplement that with Gunship Corvettes and possibly Flak Frigates. This means--even though Vaygr fighters, though far superior... and Vaygr have an additional 4 squadrons. We will still have tough fighter opposition when Ghunships and Flak are included. The Assault Frigate cannot go one on one with other fighter and anti-fighter units but it's cannons and concussion missiles create additional support in heavy swarm battles. Try to keep them at the fring of the battle, not directly mixing them in the melee. (Missile Corvettes also provide a simlar role.)

[WunderGoat]

Not to mention, you can retire a module for 80% cost back to you (i think). That means you can say, start with 1 ftr carrier and 2 vette carriers and switch to 3 frigs later on, and use your MS and SY to make replacement fighter groups (as you are repairing continuously, you don;lt need mass production) and thus quickly mass frigates.
On AF vs Flak ... if i'm reading the sith stats right, flak shots do 10 damage a piece (there are quite a few shots) with splash damage at a range of 1200m. Assault do 95/hit from their 3 cannons at a range of 2500. Basicly, they auto-kill a fighter and take about 20% of a vette hp down per hit, supporting dej2's tactic of having them support an engagement from the side. They have far superior firepower to flaks and thus can be used to kill RU ops and then dispatch the SC response force.
I would like to see how Vaygr players take down enemy resource ops. (Alas, I have gone off to college and decided play any games with me for a few weeks, so i can't really post anything on this subject)

[jinpachi]

much thanks to all the constructive posters in this thread - you've totally turned the game around for me

[Eiden]

Oops sorry alpha -- I'm falling into old habits already :D .

Granted Vaygr has a total of 8 production lines, 2 more than hiig, but feeding those lines is another story, especially if you're trying to research upgrades.
I find that hiig is more versatile because each carrier is multirole, so once one class cap is reached, a hiig carrier can immediately contribute to building in another class - whereas vaygr is stuck with a limited number of production lines/class. I think in the end everything evens out actually...

[Wirlwind]

fighter swarms work wonders on frig on up. 20 bomber wings and 24 laser vetts make short work of anything...seeing a BC go up in under 15 sec. is just plain awsome

[Blitzerland]

My favorite Vaygr strategy is thus.

1.) Build fighter facilty on carrier, begin building 10 AC squads. Build plat. controller on flagship, pump out two hyper gates. Build frigate facilty on flagship and build six assault frigates.

2.) Deploy gate to an area near your opponent(NOT TOO CLOSE!) then link the gates.

3.) Send ACs and AFs through the gate as they are created. Once they arrive at the other side, ATTACK RESOURCE OPS AND DO NOT LET YOUR OPPONENT BUILD A SHIPYARD! KILL KILL KILL!! Meanwhile, construct capital ship facilty on flagship. Build carrier, research destroyer. Build corvette subsystem on 2nd carrier. Make additional carrier if you wish to keep building AFs (not tested).

4.) Keep building more and more and more ACs and AFs and send them through the gate until either the gate is wiped out or your enemy is destroyed (the gate will die first, trust me) Re-deploy gate (to a different location, duh) along with a disruption probe and build a few destroyers. Your crippled enemy is doomed once you send the destroyers through the gate and into the fray!

Note: keep building fighters if you have enough resource collectors to support them, either that or build gun plats, because your enemy is going to mount a counterattack. Unless he (or she) is a stupid friggin' n00b.

5.) Kill your enemy! Once destroyers are done, build AFs or HMFs are finish off your enemy.

VICTORY!

[Wirlwind]

it seems like you'd be having to rake in recources fairly fast for that strat to work. how many collectors did you have?

[Mr.Sparkle!]

And how much RUs to start off with? I like starting off with 1000 RUs.

[Jimmy Shades]

I just want to bump this thread since it contains so much good advice. I have started trying to play Vaygr and am consistently getting owned by the CPU which I was beating easy with higs. The info here should help turn that around.

Kudos to everyone who has posted here.

[reki]

great thread guys!

I might see if we can get a strat archive forum going for stuff like this.

[Alpha_1]

Well if you are just starting to try vay, keep this in mind.

Vaygr do have tactical diversity but NOT at the start of the game. You have to research almost everything to open up that diversity. So when starting a game concentrate first on getting just standard ACs out. You can survive with those alone for the first 10 minutes if you keep them in good health and replace losses.

Decide BEFORE you spend money on a research branch, which branch is best suited to your game situation. If they are going corvettes you need lance fighters and not laser vettes so make sure to build yourself at least 4-6 wings of them, instead of spending that 500 on corv research (just yet). Retire ACs if you need to, to do that.

Once you research a ship class you can't research any ships in that class til you have a mod for the class built. Make sure you have the RUs to build that mod without an RU slow down or you will lose valuable time.

Consider building the Cap mod asap after fighter to increase your carrier numbers. Carriers are much cheaper and build DAMN fast, having 1-2 extra to help with ship replacement is crutial. Another key trick is to build probes/workers/refineries from just built carriers before their mod is done, after the mod is done you want the class of ship the mod is for, so you want to get those extra workers out in a manner that will not impead your offensive expansion.

Do not have more than 2 mods of each ship class type on carriers, you can have 2 carriers building fighters but not 3 (your MS can be # 3, or the SY if the game lasts that long) by maintaining specific carriers to a class, you decrease your response time when the battle flow changes, increasing your offensive capabilities. You don't have to replace mods for another type and can produce the needed ships for the situation AS the situation arises.

Remember that you can build a mod and a ship at the same time, but don't build a mod if it will slow the ship construction at a critical time.

There is something else but it slips my mind right now, I'm sure someone will post it but if not I'll probably remember it later and then post it.

[[RN]Griffon_26]

How do you deal with an early torp rush?

[CECIL]

Bombers?

[Ride]

I must say that at first I thought that the Vaygr sucked candel wax but after reading this thread I have a new appreciation for the race. So much so that I have tried to learn to play them effectively using many of the suggestions contained above. Today I feel that I know the Vaygr well having wasted several Hig and Vaygr opponets using them. While the research tree is very different to the Higs I find it most rewarding that only a basic module is needed. Vaygr fighters are more vesitile then the Hig group since they can take on all classes of ships effectively. The obvious assult craft and bombers for fighters and cap ships not to mention the lance fighters for the corvs. Then drop in some heavy missile frigs with a couple of gates and your off to the races.

I must agree that I missunderstood the Vaygr and had it not been for this thread I would have continued through the HW2 universe without ever experincing the joy of commanding a Vaygr fleet.

Many thanks to WunderGoat for starting this excellent PR campain for the Vaygr. It feels so liberating to get from beneth the vicious Hig propaganda machine and embrace the true heros of the galaxy.

!!! FEAR THE SWARM !!!

--Ride

[Bulwark30]

Question? I have started playing Vaygr in CPU vs Player (me), just to try them out and when I deploy the Hyper space gates. They sit there and do nothing. I have looked everywhere to see how to link them nothing works.

What am I doing wrong or what am I not doing?

[CECIL]

You need 1000 RUs to link two gates together. Then select one and right click on the other. This frustrated me for about 10 minutes first time around aswell :)

There is very little a Vaygr swarm can't deal with :)

[Bulwark30]

Thanks CECIL! I appreciate it. I gave up a little to soon I guess.

[GIMPbeowulf]

Originally posted by Eiden
Oops sorry alpha -- I'm falling into old habits already :D .

Granted Vaygr has a total of 8 production lines, 2 more than hiig, but feeding those lines is another story, especially if you're trying to research upgrades.
I find that hiig is more versatile because each carrier is multirole, so once one class cap is reached, a hiig carrier can immediately contribute to building in another class - whereas vaygr is stuck with a limited number of production lines/class. I think in the end everything evens out actually... The thing about the hiigaran carriers is if you want to have one with all those modules, look at what it will cost you as compared to vaygr...

Hig:
2800 carrier
500 fighter
600 corvette ?
1000 frig
-------------------
4900 total

Vay:
1700 carrier ?
500-1000 for a module
-------------------
2200-2700 total

Roughly half price, comes much earlier, builds much faster, however is much more vulnerable until you get some cap armor upgrades. Improved carrier building is also a great upgrade since you get 6 of them.

The way I see it, if you can plan ahead the advantage is to the vaygr in the carrier department. You can also replace the build module for a very reasonable price since you retire the old one and get some cash back but like Alpha said you probably want to split up carriers among the different classes to maintain versatile production capabilities... at most 3 carriers on a single class probably.

[Gravity]

Originally posted by [RN]Griffon_26
How do you deal with an early torp rush?

I would also like to know the answer to this. I have tried bombers, corvettes, nothing works. All I can think of is to build lots of heavy missile frigades.

This thread is great, by the way.

[GIMPbeowulf]

Try taking the offensive first, if the fighting is going on at their resourcing operation it's tough for your workers to die.

[Gravity]

Originally posted by GIMPbeowulf
Try taking the offensive first, if the fighting is going on at their resourcing operation it's tough for your workers to die.

Ok, but lets say that I fail to do that, and in a few minutes there are at least 10 torpedo frigades on their way to punish my flagship or carrier, what should I build to stop them? Which units works best against torpedo frigades?

I hate those torpedo frigades so much, they always chew up everything I got unless I have a destroyer or something. And what makes it even worse is that usually there is couple of flak frigades supporting them. :hmm:

[GIMPbeowulf]

Oh, we're thinking about different things. If its that late in the game you should be able to have more than sufficient counters. I was meaning more like an immediate torp or two going for your workers on a more or less suicidal trip. You could have bombers (need lots), ion frigs, heavy missile frigs, minelayers, a couple destroyers (they'll still need support), whatever by that late.

[severijn]

A mass of torps can be defeated by 4-5 squads of bombers... When one loses half their power, repair...and reattack.

[GIMPbeowulf]

You'll loose a lot of ships by the time 4-5 squads of bombers kill that many torps. One could easily clear a resourcer field, kill the refinery/carrier and even be working on another target by then. There's no quick way to kill frigates, it takes some time even for their direct counters to beat them.

[SeVeN]

by the time he has torp frigs you should have lazer vets
they make mincemeat out of any frigs he could send your way, and are pretty good at targetting subsystems on cap ships as well :)

[GIMPbeowulf]

Torps come a good bit before laser vettes and hiigarans are more likely to get that tech quickly considering the way their tech tree works. Also, torp frigs go about head on with laser vettes since they're counters for each other, both sides will take losses. However by the time 10 torp frigs are around there's been ample time to get laser vettes.

In a furball they'll put a lot of damage on them if they aren't being killed, just gotta mix the units.

[Lucifer]

A quick note to all beginning VGR players...

If you are playing against a HGN, watch him very carefully for signs of an early swarm.

Yes, the HGN can swarm just fine, and while not quite as brutal, it will hit you a lot faster than your swarm will hit him (or her).

After all, your enemy has only to build a fighter facility and vette facility to get everything but pulsars and minelayers. Subsystem smashers are an easy upgrade.

I play both races, and my favorite tactic as Hiig (at the moment) is to pull an early hit and fade on my Vay counterpart's subsystems (Ints + Bombers + Guns). I play on a LAN and - sob - can't be with you now. But when I show up - eventually - don't let me do it to you.

IMPORTANT: Losing your research mod early is very, very bad - had it happen to me a few times. Ditto for facilities. Be sure you have real counters for the H swarm - plaforms can't do the job alone.

One other thing: there can be a huge reward in building your cap facility early, just to unlock the enhaced production research. That 30% speed improvement can make a big difference early game, whether you are going for the swarm or trying to fight one off.

[CECIL]

Good points Lucifer.

If you see that your opponent skips a fighter mod...then skips a corvette mod, while building a research module, you'd better damn well have some bombers/AC in his base before the first Torp Frigates come out.

Obviously not as easy on a large map, but on a small one you should be able to overwhelm him before he can get decent numbers of Frigates out. Then it's gg.

[Gravity]

Sometimes it's very hard to counter those torps if it's a team game, one enemy builds torp frigades and the other one makes fighters to defend his ally. :fencing:

[CECIL]

Then it's an entirely different ballgame. In that case, maybe your team should try the same thing? I don't know, don't really have much MP experience up my sleeve yet.

[Kroggy]

OK, I've only skimmed through this one, so I'm not sure if someone already posted this, but here goes.

I saw someone saying that the Vaygr are much slower when it comes to resourcing, so here's a small tip that might even things out, placement of your refineries and cap ships might give you an advantage:

Flagship: I prefer placing it very close to, but facing away from the resource patch, and on the same plane. Collectors take turns as to which side they go in to unload, and having the flagship to one side of the patch (as is at the beginning of many MP maps) will slow collectors when they must go under the ship, then into it. Another option is for the Flagship to be placed so that its resource module is exaclty on top of the patch.

Carrier: More or less the same as with the Flagship, but it's better if it's moved to the right, so collectors can go form the patch straight into the unloading thing, then turn around/strafe to the left (I'll check which of the 2 it is) and return to the patch. Key here is for it to be on the same plane, as collectors will also take turns as to which pad they dock in (top or bottom)

Mobile Refineries: Most important one, the one you'll probably use the most, placed on the same plane, facing away from the patch, and preferably to your Flagship. This way, collectors will speed in from behind, dock, unload, strafe out, spin and return to the patch, faster than having to go around the Refinery, and turn about to dock, then having to turn anyways after undocking. As to why facing the Flagship? Well, if it's attacked, you don't have to turn around to run away...

This is pretty straight-forward, and problably some (if not most) of you already had part of this figured out, if you find anyway of further improving this, don't doubt on posting, we could all use some extra edge in multiplayer

- Krogoth

[.:Steevo:.]

Originally posted by Sandalpocalypse
Laser Corvettes are your friend, but Missile corvettes are the most general purpose strikecraft in the game.


Yea. I had 10 groups of Missile corvettes and they completely mutilated a hiigaran bomber/inteceptor squad that was twice as large. I lost no groups either.

Just have 5 BC's 9 Destroyers, and 25 Missile Corvettes, and your unstoppable. Bombers don't even make it to your Cap. Ships.

[Timeless]

Most people aren't going to play games like that, Steevo, as it sounds like you are playing with max population. Medium is about the norm and that only allows like 5 dds, 3bcs, 17 fighters, 12 vettes. Even with just that, my 2.4 ghz starts choking at times late in a 3v3 match. Playing online with high pop cap seems like it would be murder on anything but Deep Blue.


Timeless_OMO

[CECIL]

hehe, that's wh you should annihilate your enemy before it gets to that :)

[Rebel]

The most underrated Vaygr Ship...

THE ASSAULT FRIGATE!!!

If you want to do a quick frigate strategy, make sure to include Assault Frigates in your fleet. I find a good ratio (for normal caps) is 9 AFs to 12 HMFs. The Missile frigates are already strong enough to eat through most ships armor (including the Mothership's) with relative ease, and the AFs can chew through almost ANY fighter attack.

Secondly, AFs aren't "ant-fighter" frigs in the truest sense, they're good Support vessels. Engage a cloud of strike craft with your own and your Assault Frigates can quickly and easily destroy them.

And a tip to survive the swarm...

If you're fighting a Higgy swarmer that seems to be very hungry for bombing modules, make sure to get a second research mod on a carrier somewhere. This can make all the difference if you happen to lose one, and in the meantime, more research modules = faster research times

[Sephlock]

Originally posted by WunderGoat
Primarily I would like any Vaygr players to post their strategies and observations on playing Vaygr and tips on defeating some of the more difficult/dangerous threats to Vaygr (i.e. battlecruisers, gunships, flak, ect.)


I make a ton of fighters, then I make a ton of corvettes, then, generally, I lose :P. BE AMAZED!

Seriously though, after I am done makin my corvettes, I usually flounder, idea-wise. Do I make frigates and lose to enemy destroyers? Do I make destroyers and hope I make em faster? Do I skip to battlecruisers and try to hold off the enemy destroyers until then? So far I've settled on the middle option, since the swarm usually allows me to slow down the enemy a bit. I am partial to the first option, however, despite the fact that destroyers tend to smack me around whenever I try it -_-.



Unfortunately its late, so i'll just jot down observations for now and write about tactics later.


Sleep is for wimps :D.



Observations:
1) Vaygr teching is much different from Hiig teching, but suits the Vaygr philosphy/play style better. This may confuse Hiig players into thiking that the Vaygr system is worse.


True.



2) Vaygr carriers are cheaper by around 40-50% than their Hiig conterparts. This means that you can have greater production/resourcing earlier in the game and thus better use your early game strengths. The lack of multiple production slots is the price you pay


IMHO the lower cost generally does not translate into greater production/resourcing, especially not early in the game.

Early on, to get another carrier you would have to spend precious time making a destroyer module, and of course theres the time spent making the carrier itself, and upgrading it. Even if the carrier did not cost you dearly cash-wise (which it does, due to the prevelance of early game rushes) it would cost you dearly time-wise, and god help you should you desire more than one. Best to wait until later in the game.

Another issue is the rate of resource intake. When you are churning out anti rush units and trying to squeeze in the occasional upgrade edgewise, you are not going to have a whole lot of time/money to make a capital ship facility, carriers, and upgrades for those carriers, IN ADDITION to the additional resourcers you would need to fund this endeavour. Maybe its just cuz I am relatively new, but it seems like an awful strain on an early game economy...

Besides, with the unit caps, how many production facilities do you really NEED? Imho thats money better spent on researching new technology, so when you hit your production cap, you can make a new facility in your main ship and move on...



3) Vaygr strike craft are exceptional when properly mixed. They tend to suck bad when not. (i.e. lances can get hurt bad when soloing gunships. In a big, messy dogfight, they cut gunships down like corn). You also have more slots for said strike craft.


True, but ACs are somewhat inferior to Hiigaran fighters. Spend your extra four slots wisely.



4) Since they do not need to get the advanced research module, vaygr can get destroyers faster. Their destroyers also have a more powerful "first strike" thanks to thier massive missile volley.


This is true, though I am somewhat skeptical about the VDD's usefulness relative to it's Hiigaran counterpart.



5) More strike craft per group means more squads make it home to get repairs. As you also have more carriers, you can repair far faster than a hiig frigate fleet. Also, i have noticed that vette squads tend to split into pairs. This makes it less likely that torp frigs/pulsars will kill of an entire squadron (unless told to kill a specific squade, but that brings up other problems)


See above.



6) Vaygr BC has better "first strike" capability than the Hiig BC, making it more effective as a hyper-raider


You mean it does more damage/time? Yeah, a quick bomber raid on the enemy GG followed by a visit by a BC should cause your opponent to soil his pants, but I still have some serious misgivings about the Vaygr BC's viability in combat. It seems to me more like a battering ram, harsh and inelegant.



7) Innacuracy of various strike craft is either moot, non-existant, or eaily fixable. ACs miss a whole lot, true. But they also come 2 more to a group and tend to spray the entire enemy squadron. Lance fighters are dead accurate msot of the time, as the shoot only at pointblank range. Laser vettes and bombers hit subsystems and anything bigger than a frig just fine. I don;t know about MCs, as i tend to focus on laser vettes in my swarm.


Missile vettes are essentially in between laser vettes and ACs. They do a decent job vs fighters -you need the armor upgrades for them to really shine, however... not sure about the speed upgrades-, and are reasonably effective against their fellow corvettes. They can even make a dent in frigates, though its generally better to send laser vettes against frigs.

My question about ACs is: is there friendly fire in this game? Could the ACs spray each other by accident? :P?

As far as lance fighters go... ugh -_-. They are deadly against corvettes, and.... not much else, imho.



8) CCs make a huge difference and i haven't had trouble keeping them alive when i set them to gaurd my ACs (the big sweeping passes of ACs means that the CC moves a whole lot) i also believe that ship AI does not recognize CCs as immidiate targets and focuses on ships with guns.


Am I correct in saying that CCs are essentially cheaper, more mobile fire control towers? I mean, two ccs and two FCTs do not have a greater effect than just two ccs, right?

Even so, I agree with you. CCs rock. Except against the AI players. Those tend to home in on CCs with laserlike precision :D.



9) Hyper gates are incredibly useful. With disruption probes, they make for excellent sneak attacks/ raiding bases. Send some of your prolific carriers to these bases, and you are even mroe dangerous (note: carriers can't use the gate).


I'm guessing you mean in the long term.

[Sephlock]

Originally posted by WunderGoat
1) Start by making loads ACs followed by Lances. Lances have trouble with vettes alone, but in the thick of things they rock. Then make laser vettes out of your next 2 carriers. You should have lots of vettes in no time at all. When this is done, now you raid some choice targets.


Whats the ratio of ACs to Lances?



b) kill some RU ops. The swarm has excellent speed and later on is even faster with hyper gates. Kill carrier first, refiernies second, collectors third. This way you slow him down the maximum possile amount.


I presume you mean attack carriers after mixing in bombers and/or vettes....



d) a full swarm of 11 ACs, 7 lances, and 10-12 laser vettes will take down a mothership easily.


Ahh now I see the ratio. BUt what about missile vettes? Where are my beloved missile vetes o_O?!?!



I like to stick all my swarm in one strike group, and them assign the compnent ships to individual subgroups. This way i can band-box attack a fleet and they go for what they are best against. I can also use the laser vettes to micro kill dangerous/juicy targets such as carriers and flaks.


Yeah, I do that too. Good thinking.



Teching is also a good strategy with Vaygr. With only a research module you can tech all theway to lvl 2 cheaply. I believe fighter speed lvl 2 can be gained for under 1600 and is well worth it.


True, but it should be noted that teching TOO FAR can be dangerous, if not outright fatal.

[Sephlock]

Originally posted by Tirinal
Assault frigates are generally crap, as are missle corvettes.


GASP! You have maligned my beloved missile corvettes! They are decent against fighters -good support for your acs, should you choose to go for an untraditionally high number of lances/bombers in your fighter swarm- and also against corvs... also with armor upgrades, they live for an insanely long time.

As far as assault frigates go, you really have to apply the golden rule of HW2 frigates: Keep them the hell away from the melee. Let them fire from afar. Thats when they truely shine. That and when the enemy is on the approach.

After that, they're dogmeat -_-.



If I want to increase the efficiency of my heavy missle frigates or lance corvettes, however, I have to pay to upgrade the other units as well.


Yeah, I noticed this too. If you want to just go ACs and then skip to something else, you end up either not upgrading, or wasting money...



As for the hyperspace gates, I must disagree with you. Although they work fine in theory, in actual multiplayer matches they are far too fragile to be used efficiently. Even with disruptor probes it is very easy to figure out if someone has a hyperspace gate nearby, at which point you simply send in the bombers which destroy it in one wave. Thats 1750 down the drain. As Higarian you can warp in a carrier filled with strike craft for far less due to their hyperspace upgrades. This works even better than gates since you have a resupply/repair center nearby for your strike craft when they harass the enemy.

Sad as it is, I must agree with you. Bottom line is that the Hiigaran system of transport is more flexible and efficient. While the Vaygr gates are indeed more efficient on paper, since they have so few gates, and the gates are so rarely used to their full potential for a variety of reasons -enemy fire being one of them :P,- the Hiigaran system is given much more of a chance to shine in reality.

Too bad -_-.

[Sephlock]

Originally posted by crobato
I'm trying to learn Vagyr strats. Bump the thread up for more people to get attention and add their thoughts.

Seems like theres a grand total of 5 threads on this forum, why bother :D?

[reki]

Sephlock, ease up on the quotes matey. We dont need another entire page added to the thread just so you can quote someone and say "True".

[Sephlock]

Originally posted by Gunjak
the Vaygr are too specialised for me, it takes quite a few upgrades to get tehm top notch, as many have said, a mixed combo is deadly, however the only unit i have a real problem is the hyper space gate, i know how to use it, its just placing, also defense field frigs are inhibitors also so you often get cut off in journey and end up battling something you really dont want to.

One thing you could do is keep one hypergate at home, then send a second to a battle site, timing it so that you can use your forces to focus fire on some valuable targets -say, resourcers... or modules- then use the gate to disappear.

[Mikk]

*Mikk slaps Sephlock around a bit with a large trout

Quoting is evil. Don't use it... ever :disgust:


Vaygr carriers are cheaper by around 40-50% than their Hiig conterparts

Wrong

1700/2800*100=60,(714285) %

not 40-50 %

EDIT: typo

[WunderGoat]

Hey guys, just remember that this thread is over a month old, and its been weeks with few postings. Keep in mind that this forum was made for these threads, not the threads for the forum.

And don't reply to every post in this thread. Most of the topics were dropped for good reason, and nearly all of the arguments have ended.

*edit*
Just thought that lazy made a good thread that pertains to this topic. I'm kinda sad it didn't make it to the war room, and its been a long time since i've seen it, so here it is:
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18103

[Stargnat]

i usualy just build huge swarms of fighters, and dests. With hiigrins i just build masses of fighters and bc's.

[Hideki]

I'll post a bit of my opinion. (Also my first post on this forum)

You people seem to say, whatever amount of A ships and another amount of B ships and you can kill enemies quickly, but let's face it, if you play against good players, you don't get 10 figters, 12 frigates and 10 corvettes all alive at the same time...

If you tend to be defensive, which usually is the case on big maps, then the game is not about tactics but micro management.

So the real tactics is to make what ship and how many rc and do what action when instead of keeping your fleets safe and secure.

Since there are limited ru to collect in certain amount of time, I tend to be leaned to taking either cap ship rush or fighter defensive tactics, if you do both, you'll be fried by my tactics ;)

One tactic I do is, rushing for destroyers. I tend to do that with Hiigraans recently, but for Vaygr you can do that too and I'm yet to get conclusion on which is better, probably tends to how long the battle lasts though. What you do is make fighters out from Carrier, and make dest on mothership and do minimum research and hyperspace capability.
14 rc can do it.

And you keep sending dests to resource patches. The point is too make enough probe so you know where inihibitors are and know if they're making fighters or corvs, so you can counter them by making anti-their's, or if you're really into dest rush, you should pump out only bombers, so you can take any inihibitors off. Just you need to wish for your partners to do well and not sit there with many ints sleeping.

[Karkass]

this build order is quite good indded but try to do it with less collectors.By doining it with 12 you can still get the first dest in ~8 minutes by using improved ms construction (as vaygr). what you can further try is to send your first dest with the fighters to the enemy by simply moving him and send the next 2 through quickly build hyperspace gates just before the battle.:gnight:

[Enforcer]

Hi guys
i would like to know if anyone has ever tried a platform rush??

i have repeatedly much to the surprise of my opponents.

although i only use this strategy once against a player, coz inevitably they learn ... ghasp!


i tried a quick tech to platforms and started pumping out platforms.
i usually que about 8 to 10
by the time i have 5 a send them straight into the enemy mining field,

while they are busy with that! i research and que another 10 missile platforms and send them to join the battle, usually i place them just within the reach of the enemy carrier.

its the funniest site watching an opponents mothership pick up her petty coat and hightail it outta there.

but this only works in small maps ie;1v1 or 2v2

this i find also buys me alot of time to expand my resources collection and build a pretty fleet of lancers,AC, and bombers

try it!
if u have timed it right .. its the funniest thing on earth

[StormFaction]

Ive been messing with Vaygr and have come up with a decent strat that at least works vs CPU that involves and early lance/assault craft swarm on the enemy. I just kill whatever the enemy has built thus far and leave, during that time I build HMFs. But would it be better to switch out the lances with bombers? Lances totally rape the gunships but bombers seem to track ships like that comparibly, and with greater firepower. And lances effectiveness drops alot whern they add cap ships or even a few frigs into their groups.

[Enforcer]

i guess it depends on the type of strat ur going for, no doubt HMF have the firepower to wipe up the enemy in such a situation but hey why wait that long? plus they are a bit slow.

i would immedeately switch to bomber and pump out a batch of about 8.
finish it off real quike like.

[korsarz]

Mikk, Vaygr carriers are cheaper by ~39%. Look: 1700/2800 = ~61% - it means that Vay CC cost is the ~61% of Hig CC cost. So the difference is ~39%.

[twentydunhills]

From what I constantly see in this thread is ppl fail to recognize that inherently not all Vaygr ships are useful and those that are, aren't in all situations. I tend to win in MP games much of the time because of how well I can make Vaygr work with the strategies of other players...theorizing is pointless if doesn't work in practice.

Vaygr production capacity early on is the advantage, both in speed and in build capable ships that you can have - this means that its best to pick 2-3 types of units and stick with them until the tide of battle has been decided in your favour. Then you can explore the other options...

My personal choice is to start with ACs, skip Vaygr corvettes (just don't think they bring enough return on the RUs invested) and go straight to HMFs - which I make about 14 of in several minutes. Basically, if you can push the first 5 to the front and keep a chain of reinforcements coming, its almost an unstoppable force. Why does this work?

1.) Most MP games someone rushes for middle w a carrier - which this strategy easily beats, and in a painful manner too

2.) If you have enough fighter cover, thats all the HMF's really need to succeed, and by the time your fighters are beaten back the frigates have done what you sent them to do anyway

3.) Player's commonly don't understand the power of a frigate fleet, going for bigger and shinier ships, fact is Hig destroyers are easy prey to HMFs and surprisingly Hig BCs fall too.

4.) Finally, because missiles reaquire, there's never a shot waisted and thats what really makes them devastating especially if you go for the speed upgrade first to get them there, most go for armor and their ships don't collect into a fleet fast enough.

[Pherdnut]

Not a bad strategy if you throw in some Lance Fighters to deal with other Vaygr opponent's vettes.

[Enforcer]

hmmm it may be a good strategy to use once or twice ... but i do think itll be redundant soon.
how will u cope being flanked by a squadron of about 8 bombers mixed with assault craft of their own.
in all the mp games ive played, no one has been stupid enough to rush for the center minerals,
in the end i just dont believe that something like that could work with enough consistency to be viable. a balanced fleet created out of using some advanced scouting to see the makeup of the enemy fleet will always rape

[Pherdnut]

I don't recommend building bombers at all in the early stages of a game ever unless you've clearly dominated in the strike craft department already. I would typically build 18 ACs myself and then merely be ready to pump out Lance in case the vettes start becoming a problem.

Also, I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to dismiss rushes for center. FC and Xeno do it all the time and they do it really well. Heck, I think one of the first thing a lot of FCers typically do is build MRs so they can start moving the MSes and carriers forward almost immediately. Moving on center can work great if you've got good support from your allies.

[korsarz]

Vaygr Frig rush has some disadvantages. If none of your enemy is playing Vaygr, you have a great probability of succes of this strategy since the laser vettes are one of the best frig eaters in the universe. Even torps can't stop them. With the air supperiority of your allies you could even beat laser rusher. But what if your allies don't follow you quickly.

[Enforcer]

there is no air in space


..........

im sorry
someone shoot me

[Noir]

Will that be Lascannon or Heavy Bolter?

[korsarz]

Who knows, maybe there is an air in space somewhere.

[Pherdnut]

There's gas in space. That's kinda like air.

[dr_blowfin]

nice thread guys =) i tend to play Vaygr a LOT and this stuff is all ringing bells.

BTW space is a vacuum!

I 've toyed with a lot of strats recently, mostly trying to figure out how to counter the Hiig figther/frigate rush that a LOT of players subscribe to. Of course when u get three clan members playing three complete strangers you odds of winning are fairly slim I find.

Fighters are very important to the early game, I mostly go for the double AC proudction right off the bat (after maxing RC's). And mix it with bombers and a couple of EMP'd scouts, the bombers are the backup plan in case someone wants to do early frigate action. Im thinking that the lasers might be worth a try after all the endorsements i've read. It is very important to research the figther tech., there's nothing like watching lvl 2 fighters melt their opposition =). They can easily get to and damage RC patches b4 the enemy realises what's going on...

Frigates have become a bit of a favorite in the past couple of weeks too, really liking the HMF. This has changed from me being a DD first kind of dude. Who knows i might switch a bit, but usually what gets built depends on game situation.

Missile corvettes are great for getting rid of figthers when no higg MF's are around, and a combined group of bombers/missiles will shred a resourcing operation.

RE: HSG's, never ever use them, usually don't have time or resources to bother

RE: Carrier, get the 2nd one out after massing figthers/RC's

RE: BC's, aim them explicitly, i find that they don't fire the big cannon (i forget it's name) unless you click a target. Don't bother aiming at single frigates or the like, they will usually miss. There is nothing like a pair of these with good support, single hiig BC's may barely get a first shot in sometimes b4 they blow.

enuf for the moment, i should get back to work, c'yall online

[Eiden]

Of course when u get three clan members playing three complete strangers you odds of winning are fairly slim I find.

Actually, lately I've found that if 3 strangers are experienced and communicate well, they can whoop alot of the clanner teams out there...

[Pherdnut]

It's rare but it does happen.

But blowfin, maxing your collectors right away is probably getting you killed more than you realize. I typically shoot for maxing eventually but you really don't need that many to doublepump fighters. As a Vaygr player on a larger map, I typically build fighters right away (unless it looks like they are jumping straight to frigs) but will switch to a single pump for an extra carrier as soon as possible and can be triple pumping HMFs or laser vettes at around 14-15 collectors. I'd recommend building no more than 3 colls at your carrier and MS right off the bat. On a smaller map I usually build 2/3. Once it appears as though you have a strong fleet, then you can easily max by occasionally building 1 collector at each of your production ships. Building Vaygr DDs before maxing everything else is kind of a bad move as you will never be able to fully upgrade them unless you are already clearly winning the game. With a triple pump, you can probably get 21 fully upgraded HMFs in the time it takes to get 5 DDs from your FS alone.

[NewAgeOfPower]

i usaully play 3v3 i get bcs meh fellow clan member capt_jack_ecc will build intyts while gestord_ecc builds torp spam and 2 carriers i build bcs and 3 ru patch hand extra to allys(small batches of 500 space by 2 mins each should do wwhen i have 12 bc out all bc upgrade would be dont then 1000 ru every 3 mins and more after 3rd bc out to each of my allys) works quite well even vs our own clan members fighterblade_ecc and dkay_ecc

[dr_blowfin]

But blowfin, maxing your collectors right away is probably getting you killed more than you realize. I typically shoot for maxing eventually but you really don't need that many to doublepump fighters.

Maybe not right away, I might have exaggerated a bit there. One carrier pumping fighters while mothership concentrates on RU operations and after that the MS building whatever is deemed neccesary. DD's worked real well against the frig's last night, taking the middle of crimson in a 2 vs 2 with DD's + support worked a treat. Lightly packed frigs got mauled...didn't build any frigs at all come to think of it.

[Pherdnut]

Hmm.. yeah as far as big map strategies go, I've been getting my butt handed to me quite frequently lately by players who build more carriers than seem practical with Vaygr (I've seen like 5). Doesn't seem like it's possible to build from that many production ships without hitting serious RU lag, but I guess it is. Of course I'm also kind of an upgrade fiend so maybe this is where I'm hitting trouble.

[DivinerSage]

OK heres my vaygr 2 cents I wrote this months ago so I need to revise it I will do so soon.




Ok the Vaygr are based more on Strike Craft (fighters, Corvs). Each unit servs one single specific role.(No MultiRole Units).
The Vaygr recquire only a research mod. to access all research paths. Their Tech tree is highly prerequisite based. Requiering Unit type chassis to be researched then you must build the facility then you can research each individual unit you want to be able to build. (ex. Research Mod - Research Corv Chassis - Build Corv facility - research laser corvs - build laser) <---- So as you can see vaygr research takes time so plan ahead. Also all speed and armour upgrades enhance all ships of that category. Frig Armour lvl 1 gives all frigs more armour

The Vaygr can initially only build Research Mod, platform mod, cap-Ship facility, and fighter facilities. All other mods are available to build after research mod is built. Corvette Facilities, and Frigate Facilities can be built by researching their chassis respectively.

Unit breakdown

FIGHTERS- Advantages are 1.)unit cap is 18 2.)Speed Upgrades effect Scouts Also 3.)Assault craft Have 7 in squad 4.)EMP is 1000ru and cheaper than Hiig

Scouts-with EMP tech. and lvl2 speed upgrade can stop all fighters, corvs, rcs for a short time and they can disable frigs (if used in sufficeint numbers simultaneously)

Assault Craft-the definitive anti-fighter unit. They have 7 ships per unit (instead of the hiigi interceptors 5) so that means a little more unit longevity. Yo can get speed upgrade lvl2 much faster than a Hiig opponent giving these a nice early game edge. A swarm of 18 assault craft actually pop subsystems at a fairly good rate. I use em like people use bombers

Bombers- basically the same function as hiig to kill frigs and collectors, but with improved bomb tech they are the standard sub-system poppers.

Lance-These are fighters geared towards anti-corvette duty and when coupled with an FCT or Command Corvette they are brutal to vettes, basically they add a much needed edge to the Vaygrs strike craft versatility.

CORVETTES-Advantages-1.)Command Corvs act as mobile fire control towers (+15% to accuracy, +15% to damage as well) and all corvette upgrades affect them. 2.)Minelayers also get advantages of upgrades

Missle Corvette - Equivalent To Hiigi Pulsars, but they come 4 to a unit (instead of hiig pulsars 3). they also seem to be very good resource collector hunters.

Laser Corvette - decicated Frigate/Cap-Ship/Refinery/Collector killers. Man these units are very dangerous in swarms. A swarm of 12 lasers supported by a teammates anti corv will kill carriers in record time, and clear opponent ru operations even faster. VERY useful unit.

Command Corvettes - Act As mobile Fire Control Towers and come 1 to a unit. They are frail and they dont move around when in the midst of battle. So I suggest keeping them out of the middle of an engagement but just close enough. Also set them some waypoints so they move, or tell them to guarde a unit and they will move around following that unit. More than one of these together give double bonuses.

Minelayers - Very weak and die quickly, so keep them covered good when they are laying mines, when 5 of these are set to lay a 2D minefield in a perfect box somewhat near an enemy carrier or ru opt they start working magic and blow up stuff at an astounding rate. They also benefit from all corv upgrades as well.

FRIGATES-Advantages-1.)Infiltrators gain all frigate upgrades and Hiig marines dont get any upgrades 2.)No frig eats up capships like Heavy Missle Frigates

Heavy Missle Frigates - These are my favorite vaygr unit. They fire 2 heavy missles at their target and they also fire 1 single anti fighter/corv missle too. I think they are the best frig in the game for killing cap-ships the main reason for this is they don't pull the target towards them like Ion frigs do which makes move while attacking above a BCs fireing hard because alot of ions will pull a BC to them and makes it much more of a hassle.

Assault Frigates - (Im not crazy about these units AT ALL)These are basically moveable gunplats with alot more damage and armor. They fire a gun that is made to kill strike craft. Gun-plats dont do too well against corvettes but these do alot better. You can increase their effectiveness with FCTs and Command Corvs

Infiltrator Frigates - The best capture unit in the game mainly because they get the vaygr frigate upgrades and you can have 6 instead of the hiig Marines 4 unit limit.
*TO BE CONTINUED*



OK Ive typed enough tonight Ill finish tomorrow......



-Later-04'
DivinerSage

[Pherdnut]

I'd have to say that the ability to rapidly switch out to lance fighters in the face of excess enemy corvette buildup is one of my favorite things about playing Vaygr.

[BlackLabelSAR]

Hey DivinerSage, where's the rest of that strat rundown? I've been banging my head against the Vaygr wall for a while now. If I gave up and just played Hiig (which was sooo much easier) I'd feel like I was giving up and not becoming a good player. :beer:

[Pherdnut]

If you were any good with Hiig, I think it just comes down to getting used to the research/build tree. Most Vaygr players don't get beyond the units Diviner has already described before the outcome of the game is more or less determined anyway. All that's left is Destroyers and BCs. Vaygr have a disadvantage with these because the upgrades are prohibitively expensive early on.

Vaygr vs. Hiig Destroyer: Roughly the same firepower, but the Vaygr DD is less vulnerable to capture frigates since it can still hit them with it's missiles when they latch on. On the other hand, Hiig DDs upgrade for dirt cheap in comparison and their turret spread allows them to hit a lot more targets at once, making for a much stronger RU operation killer.

Vaygr vs Hiig BC: Vaygr BC builds faster, but also suffers from the upgrade issue. It is much more effective at wasting slow moving targets like shipyards and motherships and is a very nasty surprise when uncloaked on someone's mothership unprepared. Once again, Hiig gets the benefit of greater coverage by having its fire power divided into more guns, but the Vaygr Trinity Cannon cannot be disabled. You can take out its engines but if it's already lined up to fire on a mothership that's trapped in a grav well, it won't do a lick of good. Hiig BC is much better suited to taking out frigate groups when supported well and is strong against all capital ship targets, whereas the Vaygr BC is more of a game finisher.

A few tips:

Use command corvettes. Their bonus is cumulative up to 40% damage AND accuracy, giving your swarms a serious advantage. Just build 3 and have them guard a few ships in your swarm so they move naturally by following those craft and aren't as easily noticed. They are also a fun thing to pack into a cloaked Vaygr BC for a surprise cloak 'n hype maneuver.

Trash and swap to lance fighters if corvettes get nasty: If you have a full AC swarm and the enemy's corvettes start getting out of hand, retire (or scrap in an emergency) a few ACs and build lance fighters. Even just 6 Lance fighters added to an AC complement of 12 will take a serious toll on corvettes.

Give corvettes to Hiigaran allies: Missile Corvettes fulfill the same role as pulsars but are much more effective and laser vettes are the most brutal strike craft in the game. 36 lasers will rapidly devour anything they run into and can be very tough to counter if your enemies don't think ahead. Hiigaran frig rushers with Vaygr corvettes are a nasty combo.

Upgrade wisely: Speed 2 for fighters should be something you always go for if you're using them, but consider your needs when upgrading other stuff. Armor is always nice to have when you can afford it, but since Vaygr stuff is more expensive, don't break your bank and delay getting more ships out if cash is a bit tight. I always go for full upgrades eventually, but if you're in a close quarters game or have carriers close to the front, there may not be any need for corvette speed upgrades since the primary reason for getting them is to allow them to get to repair facilities quickly. Laser Vettes actually kill ships more quickly without speed upgrades since their attack runs last longer. Capital ship upgrades are doable, but you will typically need to pause construction occasionally to avoid RU lag. I have BC rushed before and had armor upgrades at 2 surprisingly quickly using this method. Vaygr BCs are actually pretty zippy at speed 2.

Resourcing: The Vaygr flaship is lousy for resourcing. On large maps, I recommend getting a refinery out when you get the chance and moving your flagship away from your starting RU positions so your resourcers don't waste all that time doing the space ballet routine just to get in line for RU dropoff.

Fighter Tips: On close maps like Kharam, Hiigarans can get their fighters out a bit faster due to their superior early resourcing, so it's best to let them take the initiative at first unless they rush to frigates. When doublepumping fighters keep the ones in your carrier at your forward RU op docked. When the bad guys start raiding focus fire on one target at a time with your carrier. Don't bandbox or that fire will spread out too much to be effective. Move in with your ACs from your flagship. Once your enemies break off from attacking your RU op, launch all fighters from your carrier and have yourself a happy Hiigaran sandwich. As with any fighter vs. fighter game, always be upgrade speed ASAP and repair your fighters when they are at about 3/5ths of their health bar. Good Chiken Vaygr players generally build 2 collectors at the flagship and 3 at the carrier on Kharam. That extra collector helps get those upgrades going a lot faster.

Dirt cheap carriers: They build fast and cheap so there is no reason not to build an extra one on a large map like Crimson Bond at the first opportunity as the enhanced production will rapidly make up for the time you weren't using your flagship to build combat vessels. Some people build like 3-4 extra carriers ASAP and it can be very effective if you don't get in their face fast enough. Squeezing out a carrier when you're losing can be an effective way of prolonging your game too if your allies can distract them long enough to flee.

[BlackLabelSAR]

Hey thanks for that timely response! I'll try all those things out tonight!

[Atlas CV|USN]

Vaygr can easily shut out Hiigaran strike craft. Not to mention I did a lab of Vaygr DD vs Hig DD :fight: and....the vaygr DD salughtered its Hig counterpart. It had half of its health bar left!!!!!

[hwmodder]

Lab again...that's unrealistic in my experience...

[Magus]

Atlas: probably because your DD was upgraded and the enemies wasnt? Could have also had bad luck with shots to the engine instead of the hull.

Trust me, in a normal straight 1v1, the Vaygr DD will go critical, and the missiles already en-route will kill the Hiigaran DD.

[Atlas CV|USN]

No, it was a straight 85k vs 85k fight.

[Pherdnut]

Could have been the engine thing then. Stats wise, they're roughly equal, but you need to remember that it is MUCH easier to upgrade a Hiig DD than a Vaygr DD. Hiig DDs also have an advantage in clearing out RU ops since their guns can focus on multiple targets at once. The Vaygr missiles are its primary attack and they are major overkill on collectors so Vaygr is less efficient against smaller stuff. On the other, against an experienced player, I'd probably prefer to raid with a Vaygr DD since it is much more likely to get a kill or two in before the other player evacuates his resourcers. Most inexperienced players just panic and let their collectors get slaughtered, however. Also, Vaygr DDs are much better at blasting capture frigates off of their hulls once they've become attached, however since the Hiig guns can't hit them and you have to move a Hiig DD up or down in order for its missile to be able to nail an attached frig.

[shadowfiend]

It is very annoying reading all the posts by people who write that Vaygr is underpowered, 'cause Vaygr tech differently than Hiigarans, meaning that the noobs who have never played anything else than Hiigarans think that the Vaygr teching is the worse of the two races.

:fight:

The specialisation of Vaygr craft means (and I hope every n00b that reads this understands what I mean) that you need to control your craft with care and think things through before you attack, rather than mob up a huge force in one strikegroup to batter the enemy (wich is something I have seen a lot of Hiigaran players do).

[Isul]

Seb00 said it all! That's how "we" Vaygr do it. ;)

[NorthWinds]

In general I think it's silly when anybody accuses a game of being imba. A lot of thought goes into these things.
The vaygr are way better than the hiigs at the early rush. Their squads are bigger and they can reasearch faster. Namely they can get the speed upgrade faster than the hiigs. This is probably why I love the vaygr. That and their stripes. The ability to have fast ships is invaluble against the hiigs because a lot of their ships are already a little slow. Another thing is a lot of vaygr ships a quite cheap and have faster production time. Their destroyers and BCs are way better at fending off swarms of fighters, which makes them less vulnerable than hiig capitals. Can't say much for vaygr frigs though. Also, the hypergate system is a little flawed because the gates are too damn weak to begin with. That's where hiigs rule.

[maddox01a]

I actually love HyperGates. A great tactical advantage that allows you the jump your strike craft behind the enemy while his forces are away. With a full comp of bombers and LCV's your could kill a higgy carrier before enemy can recoup. I think the art of buiding with Vaygr is knowing what to build and when. This means scout/probe your enemies(noobs!!!! Do This in Multiplayer PLEEEAASSEE!!) and build in response to them. And the lovely Infiltrator. When you capturing skills are good, those early DD and TorpFrig rushes will backfire when your enemy is getting fragged by stuff HE built!!!

[omega]

Onething some players overlook is the sheer destructive force that is the hmf.

[Slayer969]

Something I have to say...

There has been alot of controversy concerning what fighters are better (Hiig or Vaygr). On a 1v1 basis interceptors actually trash AC when neither are upgraded. 1v1 with one upgrade each, they are about equal. 1v1 with full upgrades, AC trash Int.

Now back to the non upgraded versions. 2v2 Interceptors still beat AC. 3v3 its about equal. Higher than that and the larger numbers of the AC start to overwhelm Int. Remeber were dealing only 7 AC v 5 Int at first, then the numbers jump to 14v10, 21v15, 28v20, and 35v25. Because of the Vaygrs numerical advantage, always outnumber the opponent and yes, their fighters ARE better. Not to mention lance fighters, one of the best ships in the game IMO.

[Lord Helmet]

Wow this site is a gem. I just found these forums a week or two ago but I've played my share of HW2, and am going to throw out a few specific builds and strategies. The basics have been thoroughly discussed already.

Thanks for the Carrier/Flagship

I use this one only if there is another Vaygr player. Start with double pump of collectors. The number depends on the map, though I usually go 4/4. Queue 1 mobile refinery on one ship and 2 probes on the other (again depending on which patch needs it more). Immediately move your flagship. I find giving the order to move "across" the patch and a few hundred meters up is optimal for resourcing. Send your carrier off to another patch, mid level and so its left side is toward the patch.

Start building dual fighter facilities when your 4th collector is in production, queue research mod on FS. Queue 6 AC at carrier and 6 at FS. Research lance beams, fighter speed 1. You should have 2-4 AC and your probes will tell you by now if he's going for some vettes. If so get a few quick lances out. Research frigate chassis after fighter speed 1, and this may require a pause or two since you always want to be producing fighters for now. You should have around 10-12 fighter squads (AC/Lance mix as dictated by enemy forces) by the time frigate research finishes, hopefully harassing someone's resource patch.

Research fighter speed 2 and get frigate facilities on the MS and Carrier (I like to let it finish the current fighter before replacing it), keep building fighters from FS in the meantime. Immediately research infiltrator pods, queue frigate speed 1 and armor 1. You can build 2 HMF's while infiltrators are researching, and have 2 more about 80% complete. I immediately build 3/3 infiltrator frigs and put them at the top of the queue, and set rally point toward the nearest Vaygr carrier. Ship captured for the glory of Makaan. You can capture a carrier real fast if you soften it up a little with a few hits from your 2 HMF.

Naturally, you want to take the flagship too. A good player can have a destroyer coming out in time to watch his carrier get taken, assuming he rushed for them after fighters. Well capture that, then take the FS. This is a sweet deal. What I really like about this strat is that, when successful, sets you up pretty damn good, especially in FFA. You are all set to keep pumping HMF's, you may have a new flagship with cap facility and destroyer research, maybe it can produce laser vettes ;). Worst case scenario, your opponent scuttled for spite and you got "nothing but a big chunk of resources".

I like to triple pump HMF's from here on and start getting corvettes for the swarm to take care of the other guys. I let my enemies build destroyers for me and capture them, which is easy once you have a decent flotilla of HMF's threatening everything else.

Standard Build

This is what I usually do on small maps. I actually use it a bit on large ones too, the only difference is I add 2 hyperspace plats and a sensor distortion probe to the build from the fighter carrier after they are max. Anyway..

Start with 3/3 or 4/4 collectors depending on your patches, 1 refinery/2 probes. Again, dual fighter bays when your last pair of collectors are halfway finished, queue research mod on FS. Queue 6 AC at carrier, 5 AC at FS. When research mod is done, fighter speed 1, lance beams.

When this is finished get fighter speed 2, and start a cap ship facility. Pause the cap ship facility when needed to get fighters and speed out. By the time you have 6 AC you should decide if you need lances now or later, but overall you are aiming for a 11/7 AC/Lance mix. Go start raiding a resource op. Research Corvette chassis after fighter speed 2, que carrier after 5th AC from FS.

Build corvette facility on FS, new carrier will produce probes or collectors if needed while building its corvette facility and heading out to service the offensive. Research lasers and double pump em, while continuing to build fighters from your original carrier. Keep the carrier lasers docked until a few from the FS catch up for around 4-5 then unleash em. Meanwhile, your research aims are the carrier production upgrade, corvette upgrades and command systems.

"The Swarm" is 11 AC 7 lance 10 laser vettes and 2 command vettes if you are able to max them both out. Once the command corvs are added I find I rarely lose any strike craft from then on and always have a carrier handy for quick docking. 10 laser vettes absolutely massacre resourcers and carriers and that should be their main focus. In a defended resourcing position my laser target priorities are:

1: Flak Frigates
2: Torpedo Frigates
3: Carriers
4: Collectors
5: Mobile Ref.

1v1s are usually won by now, in FFA grab that juicy 4200 chunk, and max your collectors while establishing a new resource op. Now there are more options. Destroyers, or frigs? You have to make this decision before the swarm is maxed out and have them researched. I prefer another carrier and frigates. You should also start looking at a shipyard because I haven't seen a 5 man FFA yet that someone didn't get a BC or two. May as well be you.

The Minute Man

This is a small map 1v1 strat. Carrier starts on a mobile refinery, fighter facility and research mod, flagship builds nothing. Once the 6 collectors have undocked you scuttle the FS and collect the salvage. Once the refinery is out advance your carrier, queue some AC and research fusion bombs, then improved bombs. The other guy is probably still building collectors and hasnt even got his probe out yet, you can get 2 AC and start on bombers. Produce bombers and research fighter speed upgrades, only build AC when his AC/Int start coming out. Be obnoxious in taking out his fighter facilities, and collectors, in that order. Your carrier will keep advancing and your fighters will keep getting faster, its pretty easy to keep the pressure up but you have to cripple them fast. Do or die.

*edit* All these builds are based on 1000 RU starts, and 1v1 or FFA type gameplay. I never really got into the 3v3's and what not, I'd rather play 6 man FFA, its so rewarding to win.

[drunkenbozo]

does anyone know any vaygr vs. vaygr strategies?

[gogomoocow]

i was wondering if you can get out corvetts fast. fast enough to block incoming fighter rushes (also how do you put you avatar on and where can i find cool vaygr pics) :howdy:

[kaskara]

Probably not. Let's look basic fighter rushes and a basic vagyr vette rush. I'm going to assume equal numbers of collectors on both sides.

Fighter take 45 seconds to build, and ints/ACs 35 seconds each. This has a start up cost of 900 or 1000 RU depending on race, and a running cost of about 31 ru/sec.

To get vettes, you need a res mod (30 seconds), vettes research (25 seconds), vette facilities (60 seconds) and then you can build your vettes at 45 seconds each. This has a startup cost of 2450 RU and a running cost of about 28 ru/sec.

This means that by the time you're finished your first missile vettes (2x), there will be about 6 ints in your enemy's hands. By the time you've maxed out, even a vay opponent would have time to build a full swarm including lots of lance fighters, and a hiigaran will have been able to switch to torps or pulsars.

I wouldn't say it's a good defensive strat. On the other hand if you surprised an opponent with vettes on a small map, especially if you rushed harder than they did or they were a bit slow, you could probably do a fair amount of damage to their economy if they were just building ints. Missile vettes are great anti-collector weapons. If you managed to squeeze out a few EMP scouts, you can do even more damage by freezing their fighters for a bit (thus keeping your vettes alive longer) and/or preventing their collectors from docking or retreating.

[[AsG]Storm]

Whenever i play vaygr ( i play rarely homeworld rarely ) i used to think if its not over in 10 - 20 minutes, your changes of survival drop. In the latter game Higaryia (spelling :p) overpower you in most ways, hyperspace gates are your only real chance after. if im wrong please tell me!

[Amro]

Hey every one,

I only play Vaygr online, and have noticed alot of people making stupid mistake or try to tell me how to play vaygr.

So to give my 2 cent on how to play vaygr here i go.

1. EMP is your friend,
- it should be the second thing you research. You will be able to take on 24 hiigaran fightersor more with your 13 fighters and 5 scouts.

2. Missle corve only
- i know Lazers are nice but missle corves can take out way more things then Lazer, plus it make sure that you win the small ship battle even if you are the only one with them. So always max out Missle corves withh a command corve before making Lazers.
- If you must make 4 lazer for the odd Frigate.

3. Heavy missle frigate
- They are your friend when upgraded in armor. They can take out ions and BC alot better when moving them all the time. If you do not make corve go Frigets onstead of DD.

4. Hyper gates
- I have only reseantly started using these but they are amazing. They can hyper every ting but CC, MS, & BC. Plus your teammates can use them. I usually make them to move my DD up to my two CC which ar pumping HMF.

One last thing, Fire control towers. These are amzing things to have on a BC and CC when attack. they will let your ship live longer and kill quicker.

ALWAYS dock you ships if CC or BC are close. every time you select your Fighters and Corves, dock those at half health or in yellow. I have been able to survive a 1v2 swarm becaues of this.

This stuff works for 3v3, and 2v2 if you have noobs or skills on your team.

[Frozen_Hiigaran]

yeah, i agree with that even if i am a hiigaran player. but it the hiigaran can do it right, he can neuteralise the fire control tower and anything else on the vaygr players side that can increase ship effectiveness, then his sheer mass of fire power can overwhelm the vaygr before they ever get close. oh and hyperspace gates are VERY vulnerable to a pinging and then sending a few turrets out to guard/destroy anything that comes through it while your marine frigs cap it. hyperspace gates also work in reverse, so it's satisfying to see your fleet hyper in right next to their shipyard/flagship and blow it to some more space junk for collectors to use. dunno if the 'reverse gate' tactic works online, as I have had probs trying to get it to even start up recently, let alone connect to the lobby rooms :(