[2.311] Gliders

[Korrigan]

They can land everywhere except the base sectors - where is the nerf? The still crush until on the battlefield. They still invalidate unsupported nebels, mortars and other fragile units. They can still get into the base with smoke?

[BoDyBaG2224]

Commandos themselves have been made weaker, and they can no longer reinforce from a glider, and their reinforcement cost has increased.

[lance81]

That is great news! This was the ideal situation for commandos imo.

Commandos have to be able to land behind enemy lines. Now that they can but cannot reinforce without the glider being in friendly territory is perfect.

[Unicous]

are you a prophet of some kind or why can make this statement while the patch available it 2.310?

[CommanderHolt]

Of course they will kill unsupported Nebels and other fragle units, that what they are suppose to do, wreck havok in undefended areas.

[variousgamesfan]

Good job to relic for being able to get them none base landing fix that the community wanted :)

[ViiKumi]

Great, weapons teams are again worth crap...

[TeaSeeOh]

Jesus people. There's a unit called Wehrmacht "Officer." He has this nifty ability to force retreat 1 squad(ideal for commando drops), for only 50 munitions. If he is wasting 560 MP on a glider call in, you can use a mere 50 munitions to put him back to his HQ truck.

[tuffy!]

Of course they will kill unsupported Nebels and other fragle units, that what they are suppose to do, wreck havok in undefended areas.the problem, is what you define by "support". commandos will rape any "support" units unless its an officer with forced retreat, or its a vehicle. even if it is a vehicle, the commandos have more than enough time to kill the weapon crew and retreat.

which means the only possible "support" units are t3, t4. so if you want to do a t2 > t4 strat, you're screwed. again, another reason why wehr is forced to go t3 vs brits. which in turn causes some brit players to scream "nebel op".

[Splitmonkey]

omfg thanks relic, rejoice as your carefully positioned paks and mgs are instantly raped by invisible terminators.

Once again stratigacally placeing weapons can be invalidated by 2 clicks.

[Ano2]

Well commandos cost more to reinforce and are weaker, so this change is perfect. Now they are a very expensive elitle unit that runs behind enemy lines wrecking havoc.


which means the only possible "support" units are t3, t4. so if you want to do a t2 > t4 strat, you're screwed. again, another reason why wehr is forced to go t3 vs brits. which in turn causes some brit players to scream "nebel op".


Nope, I always get a haltrack and upgrade it with flamethrower, perfect for the pesky commandos. Hell a unit of pios in the hlaftrack does the trick.

[Darksider2]

guard ur support units. enough said

[SScRiBLe]

for commandos you need guards for the guards...

[BoDyBaG2224]

Commandos aren't the uber elite squad they used to be, yes they are still strong but they cost a shitload of MP I hope they are strong. Now that reinforcement has been increased you can't have your Commando blob running around taking casualties and being able to stay competitive. I still dislike the camo smoke but, w/e.

[chuckles22]

I dont remember reading about a commando nerf anywere in the patch notes. I could be wrong though. The nerf i see is a slight cost in reinforce and the separation of a few ability's...

Im talking about pure killing power these guys are unstopable

[BoDyBaG2224]

No nerf to killing power correct, but reinforcement and their abilities have been nerffed.

[scoiatollo]

They don't need a nerf to their killing power! They are a 560mp purely AI special callin unit! That would be like the Tiger not being able to penetrate a stuart's armor...

[Roman_93]

I would be happy now if they would cost 40 - 45 MP.
35 MP is like a weak Luftwaffen guy in cost.

Now that the base area is defined I would love to see that overwatch airburst cannot be set here.

[Chronos]

they are an 560 MP pure AI specific elite unit, with more then excellent abilities, comin everywhere.
Falls are 420 MP pure AI specific elite unit with not really good abilities, comin out of buildings.
but comms are way better than falls in AI (even with 75 Mun upgrade are Falls worse), balanced?

[scoiatollo]

Yes it's balanced cause Falls have AT, Comms not.

[Chronos]

well i guess it is pretty weak isn't it? A Falls squad won't kill anything with the faust.
guess only if the comms would have to upgrade for stens, they would come close to falls. they still would have their excellent abillities.

[scoiatollo]

Falls are also not meant to be a Terminator unit behind enemy lines that kills everything right?

What do you think is better, 560mp no AT, or 420/75 for a unit with similar AI capabillities and basic AT? - Hard to say hmm... I'd say it's overall balanced.

[GerryHYH]

Though the FG42 is effective at ALL ranges, commandos only effective at close range... very risky of doing it, as you can 'body block' or tank block them if they retreat... if your micro gifted ofcourse ^^

[Roman_93]

Guys, I meant the Luftwaffe Ground Forces that cost same reinforce as commandos 35 MP.
Fallschirmjäger cost 45 MP like Power Rangers.

So I think 40 to 45 MP reinforce cost would be fair for these giftet Brit lads.

[scoiatollo]

Brits already suffer from their MP shortage, I really don't think that this would be necessary. You can simply not reinforce your troops on hostile ground so you have to get them out much earlier which means you lose the suprise effect and charging in commandos are actually not that great after all since they are only good in CC.

[Wischmopp]

Vet0 Fallschirms get raped by Commandos.

Vet3 Fallschirms rape Commandos.

May be a middle way would be better?!

[Chronos]

Comms are also not meant to be terminator units behind enemy lines, but they effectifly are...
FG-Falls are still weaker in AI than Comms.
And well if i had the choice between a unit able to fight full power right after call in and a unit that needs another 30 seconds to be able to fight, well hard choice... :slow:
and for the AT-abilities (if you will really call faust AT-ability), i guess building trench, long range grenade, invisible smoke, Super demo charge are slightly better aren't they?
Only effective CC? who cares if you can close with no probs with invisible smoke.

[Roman_93]

You can't reinforce Falschirmjäger in foreign territory either. So what?
And they have to "develop" the FG 42 for 75 Mun before they can be effective.

A raise of MP in reinforement cost would prevent Commandos from being used as main shock infantry what was often seen before.
Especially when getting dropped Panzerschrecks they become unfair. Also I think, it is nonsence for a surprise AI unit to have the ability to dig trenches?!?
This is totally unrealistic and should be removed - shock units would never dig in.

[chuckles22]

There would be no heartburn for me if they nerfed the killing power. making them have the effectiveness of falls with FG42 maybe a little bit more. BUT as well as lowering there cost.

Currently they are a bit to strong for my taste. The Wermacht are the ones that have suffered and will continue to suffer against the Commandos.

[Wolfwood]

I think if the reinforcement cost of commandos was increased to 45, they would be balanced. Right now they cost the same to reinforce as Tommies, which is stupid. Although I still think its bullshit how fast they rape infantry, I'm not sure how to fix that.

Also remove the ability to build trenches, I doubt an elite shock unit that deploys behind enemy lines would bring a shovel and build defenses. The point of commandos is to be a raiding unit, not a defensive one.

[CWO4EVIL]

You forget that Falls gain vet comms dont.(unless a Lt is present LOL)

Falls can detect mines, sprint, have AT abilities, Anti building incendiary grenade, FG42 upgrade,

[Jaigen]

Yes it's balanced cause Falls have AT, Comms not.

and you serioulsy wonder why i dont take you seriously :jester:

commando's are weird they are incredibly overpowered vs the wher and incredibly underpowered vs the pe

[Chronos]

mine detection needs upgrade from HQ after next patch, sprint needs EVERY Infantry upgrade from PE.
And Falls won't get vet in enemy territory since they have to retreat long before they would.

Jaigen? UP versus PE???

[Roman_93]

@ CWO4EVIL

Commandos have smoke, built trenches, nades, democharges, AI killing Power from the start, are 6 men, can drop everywhere.

Falschirmjäger get sprint and detect mines after upgrades, like their FG 42.

I do not get your point really.

[AnyKey]

I wonder time after time why people cry about Relic or Relic based rants on here, when these forums are in no way related to Relic at all. All concerns/suggestions should be presented at the WiKi Beta Board.

[Quercus]

I think the reinforce cost should be increased slightly, but it isn't really that important because they can only reinforce in friendly territory.
The only balances I would suggest are:
1. Reduce the number of men to 5 but boost the damage to compensate and then give them a pop. cost of 10 (2 per man)
2. Increase the time and cost to reinforce slightly.
3. Remove the ability for them to build anything except the Radio transmitter.

[Jaigen]

Jaigen? UP versus PE???

yeah their are several reason for this.

1. stens have a huge and i mean huge penalty vs the pe. a 4 man pg squad with mp 44 > commando's

2. the pe has better access to light vehicles commando'suck against them.

3. commando's provide a huge amount of vet. Early engagements may be won through attrtion but sooner or later you will have a shitload of vet 2 defensive vet pg's running around.

simply put it isnt smart using commando's vs the pe. Its better to use the RE doctrine


Commandos have smoke, built trenches, nades, democharges, AI killing Power from the start, are 6 men, can drop everywhere.

Falschirmjäger get sprint and detect mines after upgrades, like their FG 42.

I do not get your point really

not to mention commandos come in teams of six fsj in 4 also manndo's have 5 hp more

[tuffy!]

for commandos you need guards for the guards...yep, this is how op they are. yes their linked-timer thing was nerfed, but their killing and hp stats are still the same.


This is totally unrealistic and should be removed - shock units would never dig in.I suggested this a while ago.


scoiatollo:Keep it as it is, Wehrmacht is oped enough atm... this is why i dont even read scoitollo's posts anymore. he's so pro-brit biased that his posts don't even make sense.

Here is my take on what needs to be done with commandos, pick 2:
1. remove trench building ability.
2. make stens an upgrade for 50mu.
3. increase reinforce cost to 45mp.

[Pankake]

Commandos are strictly anti-infantry raider units, anti-infantry is their sole purpose.
You don't use infantry against a specific anti-infantry unit, unless you're sure you have more than enough firepower, usually outnumbering 2-to-1 with the right unit does it (per soldier, not squad).

But there is a better way, more cost-effective, guarantees you will take 0 casualties and you don't even have to micro or use cover!
Use an armored vehicle! Yep, this is another situation where blobs don't prevail, the more infantry you use to counter commandos, the more commandos the opponent is going to make to counter your infantry, it's pretty basic.
I'm not even going to go into why the unit costs 560 mp, that's a given.

Commandos are perfectly balanced now, that doesn't mean you can pitch 560 mp worth of your infantry against 560mp worth of commandos, because the balance in CoH doesn't work like that, never has and I hope it never will. It's balanced because they're on the field much after the opponent can have a counter for them, in the form of an armored car, half track, puma or what have you, and if you don't have any of those, then you've just been outplayed. There's an armored vehicle of sorts in every T2+ building on both of the Axis factions, you don't have any excuse.

"Commandos can kill weapon teams"...

Well I should bloody well think so! So can a Stuart, so can artillery, so can airborne, strafing run, Churchill and a number of other units and abilities by the time Commandos are available.

Why not just go ahead and say "your units hurt my units and I don't like it".

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Ok.. let me understand.

I have 3 nebels, guarded by 1 unupgraded volks squad, and 1 grenadier squad with 1 shreck.

I would say I have some defenses on my weapon team.

A glider flies in and drops off some commandos. The commandos can easily dispatch all three weapon teams. Sure the commandos will take significant losses, but most likely will NOT be completely destroyed before they kill all three nebels.

They then retreat, reinforce (at the same cost as Luftwaffe ground forces), and head back out this time to cause some frontline problems.

Do I not have enough defenses on my Nebels? Are you saying I need an Armored Car/Ostwind/P4IST

Yes the call in is expensive, but they are unbelievable efficient killers.

[Ap0k]

Since you're in t3 for nebels anyway, why not just use a Puma and an MG, which would do the job far more efficiently and a much smaller risk to themselves.

Quite frankly, for 560 manpower, the most expensive infantry in the game, that have a single, sole purpose, that being to destroy other infantry, I'd expect them to be good at it. In fact, I'd expect them to be completely outrageous at it. They cost more than half as much as a tiger for christs sake.

Guarding infantry against an excellent anti-infantry unit with more infantry should be punishable by the death of your stuff. You know the the only thing that can spontaneously get behind your lines is unitX, so you put stuff there to defend that UnitX is good at killing?

That's just mind-bogglingly stupid.

[Swooping Hawk]

Not been a Mod suck up, but I agree with everything Ap0k said.

Maybe 'cause I only play the British online but hey.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Even with a puma/Mg I still think you would see the commandos kill at least 1 weapon team and then retreat, and then the 25lb'r would get the rest.

The current reinforce percentage (30% = 25.5mp) is way off. That's why it's being balanced. Though I feel like the new one (~41% = 35 mp) is still a little weak.

Even if you have some 'meat grinder' defenses in place, you can still throw some commandos into the mix, Kill at least one weapon team, use smoke and a LR grenade, probably kill a second weapon team, and then retreat.

Reinforce back to full squad for another 175 mp, and then head out and cause some more trouble. I don't mind commandos in the backfield, it's what they are for, but the cost/killing power is still off imo.

[scoiatollo]

This has nothing to do with being biased or not. If you invest a huge ammount of your resources into a pure AI unit it has to be damn good at what it does!

edit:
There will no 25lb in the time you have 3 nebels and dropped commandos behind them. If that's the case you would have lost anyway. (btw we are talking here about 320+450/50 (maybe I am wrong about the 25lb)+560 1330mp/70fuel)

[natrapsmai]

1. remove trench building ability.
2. make stens an upgrade for 50mu.
3. increase reinforce cost to 45mp.

Bah, that's not the point. Commandos can do a million things that any other single unit in the game can't do. They should be one thing and one thing only: awesome infantry units, or behind the lines harassal units. Being both is absurd, not because 600MP is too cheap (it's not) but because their unit survivability and by extent usability is the highest in the game. Six man squads, omg-rape sten guns, dropping down anywhere, super long frag throws, magical invisi-smoke, and anywhere anytime IEDs. A single unit being able to do it all - and the entire British playing community choosing Commandos - is a broken game doctrine no matter how or why it's OP in the first place and represents A) Command Trees that need overhauling and B) the commando unit that needs replacing.

I say replacing... the scope of the Commando is fundamentally incorrect if you ask me. Relic could tweak every single one of the Commando's abilities to bring them down to Earth, but they won't. Smoke needs to be like all the other smoke in the game and not magic invisible smoke. Frags need to have the same range as others. Demolitions charges being planted in the middle of an open field? wtf? If the American demolitions can do that then I'm in error here, but IIRC they can't and the commandos shouldn't. Sten guns shouldn't make the Commandos wtfpwn like they do - the Sten itself was decent but compared to how it preforms in game versus MP44s makes me scratch my head. Being the trick horse capable of doing it all in this game isn't representative of a Commando, it's representative of an "Oh Shit!" button which itself has multiple other "Oh Shit!" buttons. None of the above lends itself to good design, or good balance.

[Jaigen]

Quite frankly, for 560 manpower, the most expensive infantry in the game, that have a single, sole purpose, that being to destroy other infantry, I'd expect them to be good at it. In fact, I'd expect them to be completely outrageous at it. They cost more than half as much as a tiger for christs sake.

by that definition why the fuck where fsj nerfed then

420/4 = 105 and still need to buy 75 ammo

560/6 = 93.33 or worse 510/6= 85

and fsj aren't nearly as flexible as the comanndo's

[Vretsu]

Yes it's balanced cause Falls have AT, Comms not.

Haha, oh yes, that beastly panzerfaust makes up for Falls being nearly useless, good one.

Welcome to my signature, you silly quote.

[tuffy!]

wow, this is becoming a trend, ppl using scoitollo's quotes for their signature haha!

[ViiKumi]

They just should give commandos the nerf they had some time ago, as in not being able to be dropped to enemy sectors, since now, they totally eat all weapons teams (nebel, mg, sniper) and blobs (since the glider always kills 2-8 troops when dropped on a blob, moving or not)

The old nerf would be good, since it negates the chance of crushing 2 men of mg crew, then kill the third after throwing a grenade on the enemy infantry, then smoking and retreating. Another good thing would be that the glider couldn't be called down to an exact location (as in the direction of the front of the glider) therefore making the crushing a little bit more risky and killing a whole blob / group a little bit harder. Or a more extreme measure, as in increasing the time that getting out of the glider (not as long as in tetrarch, but still a bit longer) since the commandos can even attack a flakvierling or an 88... I've never had an 88 to kill a commando glider when it is dropped behind it (no matter how close). Well, maybe the AA's just should be more accurate, more damaging and have faster aim time when against aircrafts... That's pretty much my two cents...

And a bit offtopic:

Has scoiatollo EVER said anything that would be against brits, or that brits were OP?
Has he ever asked for any buffs in wehrmacht forces?

Seems pretty much like a british fanboy to me... :)

[Panzer Jager]

Vretsu, usually you use quotes as to something you agree with, or an idea which you want others to know about. In your case, you didn't provide your own opinion against that quote in your signature (where as in the post you made you disagreed with it), and thus it's misleading.

[shiner980]

I think that they are too cost effective for the number of roles they fulfill. For they are
- Supreme anti - infantry units
- Demolitions expert
- Drop anywhere even with FOW
- position entrenchment
- long range nade for removal weapons team removal.

This is in comparison to other units, closest i think would be airborne, and they aren't too comparable, with commandos being so much better for 185 more manpower.

The old nerf killed the whole point of commandos and I am quite doubtful we really want to do that, we should just nerf their cost effective-ness; the smoke/nade timer nerf was good, but now we need probably one more change, with Reinforce upped to 45 looking like the best one. Yes you pay 560 manpower for it, so its expensive, but they are so many things (and good at them) that they should be expensive, and we need to make it so you have to use them carefully, instead of making them replacements for your infantry sections.

[scoiatollo]

@Viikumi: Actually I asked for a Wehr buff (don't recall which one) and I was for nerfing the commandos. Dig up my old posts if you don't believe me...

@jaigen: FSJ got nerfed cause they pwn any infantry at all ranges! You have to charge with commandos, plus it get pwn by vet3 lmg42 grens. Also they don't have a Vet bonus in 90% of the time, FSJ have.

@Cretsu: well FSJ get Vet, can have a FG42, camou aproach,.... Comms are pure AI with the ability to blow up buildings. The cost difference is correct.

[ViiKumi]

The old nerf killed the whole point of commandos and I am quite doubtful we really want to do that

I don't think that the point of commandos should be a total terminator which can eat any weapons teams and defenses.. The point of commandos could aswell be surprise, or perhaps being a recon / specialist team with demos and being fast and having lots of abilities, nerf the commando gun or the glider, that's my only wish to the relic...

Airborne units being counter to infantry, weapons teams AND Anti-Air is just crazy.

[tuffy!]

Vretsu, usually you use quotes as to something you agree with, or an idea which you want others to know about. In your case, you didn't provide your own opinion against that quote in your signature (where as in the post you made you disagreed with it), and thus it's misleading.panzerjaeger, i think vretsu is assuming that the statement is so preposterous that it needs no more explanation.


I liken the WM to brit matchup to being a spy: you have only one way to infiltrate the building, and you then must complete a set of arobatics to get over some lasers, and then you have 30 seconds to defuse a nuclear bomb before you die -Monkeypoop now this is a very funny and true quote. i'm surprised i havent read it before.

[Jaigen]

@jaigen: FSJ got nerfed cause they pwn any infantry at all ranges! You have to charge with commandos, plus it get pwn by vet3 lmg42 grens. Also they don't have a Vet bonus in 90% of the time, FSJ have.


but they are more expensive . and by apoks and your illogical conclusion that expensive infantry should be omgwtfpawn infantry. so the fsj should be returned to their old state because of this conclusion

[Ace7622]

With the old PE vet system gone, fg42 nerf and CP increase, you just cant compare falls with comms anymore, cost wise or ability wise.

[scoiatollo]

They are cheaper than commandos and can get vet, comms not... They are still more than good, they are just not the "lol i build 2 of them and kill everything with my marder shooting tanks from behind". And no this does not apply to brits cause the FF comes later and is more expensive, so while he is wasting commandos against your combined arms he daleays his FF/Cromwell cause he has to reinforce thos commandos. Brits have no viable AT midgame so you should be dominating comms with tanks while he desperately tries to get FFs.

[tatatank]

a simple fix is to remove soldier armor. a 6 man smg squad with the ability to smoke to cover distance doesnt really need soldier armor to begin with. Every other unit in the game has to close the distance in the open, or camoed at an extremely slow pace.

Now if they didnt have soldier armor, they could be used much more like specialists just like fallz are.

commandos cost as much as they do because they get 6 free smgs, drop anywhere( better than fallz, and paratroopers) Have the longest and deadliest grenade of all troops, can demo anything anywhere, can smoke in order to protect themselves, and they have the lowest reinforce cost of all special call in troops( if you even mention luftwafte troops you lose).

That high cost doesnt mean they should obsolete other infantry, it just means they can do an assload of different things at any given moment. There sole purpose is not to destroy other infantry, they can do 100 different things.

[Wolfwood]

FSJ got nerfed cause they pwn any infantry at all ranges! You have to charge with commandos, plus it get pwn by vet3 lmg42 grens. Also they don't have a Vet bonus in 90% of the time, FSJ have.

Even with the Vet 3 LMG Grens that take 900mp and 200fuel to get to (not including KKC costs and T2 costs), the Commandos will still kill enough soft targets far before then to effectively end any infantry heavy strat.

The problem with Commandos, as already stated by many, is that they are too cost effective, as they not only annihilate any infantry they encounter, they also invalidate weapons teams, emplacements, and laying detonate anytime mines anywhere.


wow, this is becoming a trend, ppl using scoitollo's quotes for their signature haha!

lol, it happens a lot. I was lucky enough to get this quote when a thread about buffing Wehrmacht Officers came up.

[Pankake]

Haha, oh yes, that beastly panzerfaust makes up for Falls being nearly useless, good one.

Welcome to my signature, you silly quote.

I think you should add that to your sig, Vretsu, Panzerfaust received a 50% damage buff to heavy armor, combined with their new fast cool-down, it's actually pretty good :P.

[Ace7622]

They are cheaper than commandos and can get vet, comms not... They are still more than good, they are just not the "lol i build 2 of them and kill everything with my marder shooting tanks from behind". And no this does not apply to brits cause the FF comes later and is more expensive, so while he is wasting commandos against your combined arms he daleays his FF/Cromwell cause he has to reinforce thos commandos. Brits have no viable AT midgame so you should be dominating comms with tanks while he desperately tries to get FFs.

If there is still anyone saying that fsj are cost effective while comparing them to COMMS, my only suggestion will be try to use them uself and see the outcomes. They are still good comparing to wat at wat price. And its really interesting that you start comparing COMMS with the old fsj :rolleyes:

[HellToupee]

commandos cost as much as they do because they get 6 free smgs, drop anywhere( better than fallz, and paratroopers) Have the longest and deadliest grenade of all troops, can demo anything anywhere, can smoke in order to protect themselves, and they have the lowest reinforce cost of all special call in troops( if you even mention luftwafte troops you lose).

6 free smgs, hardly free they cost in MP, with how brits depend on MP so much and the fact they usually float MU late game, commandos costing 400 mp and having 100mu upgrade like rangers would be cheaper for them.

As for deadiest grenade, i think you should give the bundle nade a go.



That high cost doesnt mean they should obsolete other infantry, it just means they can do an assload of different things at any given moment. There sole purpose is not to destroy other infantry, they can do 100 different things.


but they can't do 100 different things.

They dont obsolete other infantry, just that if you want infantry to compete with a expensive AI squad your going to have to spend a fair bit to do it. eg vet + mg42s on grens. Or as PE just blob out some more stg44s.

You cant expect infantry to fight cost effectively dedicated AI infantry, unless it is also dedicated AI infantry.

[Demonic Spoon]

Commandos are NOT dedicated AI infantry. They are behind-the-lines ninjas. They are capable of fighting infantry pretty well, but their special abilities are what make them. They SHOULD NOT be cost effective AI.

[Ace7622]

6 free smgs, hardly free they cost in MP, with how brits depend on MP so much and the fact they usually float MU late game, commandos costing 400 mp and having 100mu upgrade like rangers would be cheaper for them.

As for deadiest grenade, i think you should give the bundle nade a go.


Are u askin for a buff?

[HellToupee]

Commandos are NOT dedicated AI infantry. They are behind-the-lines ninjas. They are capable of fighting infantry pretty well, but their special abilities are what make them. They SHOULD NOT be cost effective AI.

Storms are an example of behind the lines ninjas. 2/3 Commando abilities are not suited for behind the lines, smoke and grenade are combat abilities. Hell for a time in the beta they couldnt even drop behind the lines shows how relic thinks their designed role is.

You don't pay 560mp for glorified mine planters.


Are u askin for a buff?

no

i was just saying if smgs cost MU not MP would be a buff from a brit POV.

[tatatank]

As for deadiest grenade, i think you should give the bundle nade a go.

Ranges

bundled grenade - 21, 85 damage
potato masher - 25 , 40 damage
pineapple - 20, 60 damage
british pineapple being tossed by nolan ryans - 30, 60 damage

Ill take the british one every time.


Everyone ability is suited to behind enemy lines. Smoke can be used to get across areas behind enemy lines. Grenades are the perfect way to not lose men and cause serious casualties to the enemy. Every ability they have is designed to give them an advantage behind enemy lines where they will go up against other infantry equal to them.

[HellToupee]

Ranges

bundled grenade - 21, 85 damage
potato masher - 25 , 40 damage
pineapple - 20, 60 damage
british pineapple being tossed by nolan ryans - 30, 60 damage

Ill take the british one every time.

ild take the 6.5 splash over the 4.5 everytime kill the whole squad instead.



Everyone ability is suited to behind enemy lines. Smoke can be used to get across areas behind enemy lines. Grenades are the perfect way to not lose men and cause serious casualties to the enemy.
Every ability they have is designed to give them an advantage behind enemy lines where they will go up against other infantry equal to them.

Every advantage designed to give them an advantage "behind enemy lines" going up against equal infantry?

isn't that just general AI ability, i don't believe those abilities care where your located behind the lines or on them. Commandos are not even that great behind the lines, they can't defend against armor or hide from it, so they require support from the basic units.

Behind the lines units are units that are stealthy, luftwaffe ketten is what a behind the lines unit is, fast steath and a real frustration but not a combat unit.

[Swooping Hawk]

I'm glad they left the 'Drop in anywhere' ('Cept Enemy Bases) in still, as I was annoyed it sort of defeated their purpous as a hit and run then get the hell out of there unit.

[tuffy!]

Behind the lines units are units that are stealthy, luftwaffe ketten is what a behind the lines unit is, fast steath and a real frustration but not a combat unit.let's rephrase. commandos are "behind-the-lines combat units". not frontline combat units.
if you are convinced that they are frontline units, then lets have the glider only drop in controlled territory. or better yet, let's have them walk in like rangers.

[Falaris]

Only problem is they still get a forward HQ with that 560 mp, producing commandos after that costs 510, so they get a (limited) FHQ for 50MP. The Tetrarch drop costs 450, but producing the tank costs only 300.

Somehow I fail to see why the commando glider shouldn't cost a bit more than 50, like the tetrarch. Of course, it's wasted if you use it as an artillery drop + commandos thing, but then, that's also a bit cheap for 50mp.

[HellToupee]

let's rephrase. commandos are "behind-the-lines combat units". not frontline combat units.
if you are convinced that they are frontline units, then lets have the glider only drop in controlled territory. or better yet, let's have them walk in like rangers.

They still need to come back to base to reinforce, theres no such thing as behind the lines combat unit, combat is combat no matter where ever it is. Commandos are supposed to drop in capture a sector and that pretty much becomes the front line or they hit and run.

Hell the only thing that could really be a behind the lines combat unit is the airborne squad, since it reinforces anywhere.


then lets have the glider only drop in controlled territory

for a while that was the case :P

[TheYaxisOfEvil]

bah a great way to protect stuff from commandos and Tets is the ostwind

[Luwinkle]

No longer reinforce from a glider?

Holy suckitude, batman.

[BoDyBaG2224]

Yeah, but those early encounters can really hurt you. Although I've used a Puma against them and as long as I caught them with no AT support I scared them off.

[HellToupee]

No longer reinforce from a glider?

Holy suckitude, batman.


in enemy territory you cannot reinforce from glider but you can in friendly

[tuffy!]

bah a great way to protect stuff from commandos and Tets is the ostwindonly problem is that gliders come in way before t4.

[bottenbreker]

only problem is that gliders come in way before t4.

i can agree with that. if you would simply switch commando hq and commandos. then the balance problem would be pretty much fixed. cause then there are enough counters to the commandos but they would still be a valuable late-game unit.

[Muad'Dib]

i can agree with that. if you would simply switch commando hq and commandos. then the balance problem would be pretty much fixed. cause then there are enough counters to the commandos but they would still be a valuable late-game unit. A lot of people have been crying for that switch since the early days of OF...I wonder why it never got any green light? IMO, it should at the very least have been done and tested here in the beta just to see if switching them is indeed a solution. I for one play Brits and would love to get that switch. I also think that commandos should lose their trench digging ability but have a faster demo setup time thus enforcing their roles a deep infiltration units and saboteurs (IMO).

[scoiatollo]

You would really wanna mess around with Commando Piats that early? they cost 255mp iirc, are more durable, do better damage and are faster. With the option of early mobile MG/Mortar brits would seriously be OP. Besides that Commandos at late game units wouldn't really be an option, they are way too weak and the Tetarch can't be your first callin cause it would be too strong, Tets as late game callin would be too weak.

There is not really a way to change it.

@Tuffy: get a HT with pios in it, they are >>>>>>>>>>>>commandos (unless you lost Schrecks) and will be around before commandos. If you wan't to be a little bit more generous on resources make a Flammen HT out of it. Tada, your early Commando counter...

[ViiKumi]

Commandos at late game units wouldn't really be an option, they are way too weak

Commandos at late game still rape all infantry...


get a HT with pios in it, they are >>>>>>>>>>>>commandos (unless you lost Schrecks) and will be around before commandos. If you wan't to be a little bit more generous on resources make a Flammen HT out of it. Tada, your early Commando counter...

HT with pios in is pretty much waste... when they get out of the HT, they will die before they can turn and use the flamer against the commandos...
Flamer HT is a bit more expensive... 220mp, 20 fuel, then 100 munitions. And you need the assault phase upgrade for that.

It takes a long time to get that without losing much of the map / strenght... And ofcourse the stuart tank gets in by the same time you get that HT out, then the flamer is 100% waste... There really isn't a reliable way to counter commandos in early/ midgame.

[scoiatollo]

You don't have to get them out of the HT! Drive them nearby and use the goddamn mg it has!

If you weren't dumb enough to waste troops in the early game (ie avoid lock down areas) there is no way Commandos will be on the field before you can have a Pak + HT (lately I don't even get the 3CPs before an early stuart, not because I don't kill anything, simply because some Wehrmacht players have realised that you don't have to fight T1 in most cases). It's a different story in 2v2 and above but balance is always focused on 1v1.

[ViiKumi]

You don't have to get them out of the HT! Drive them nearby and use the goddamn mg it has!

If you weren't dumb enough to waste troops in the early game (ie avoid lock down areas) there is no way Commandos will be on the field before you can have a Pak + HT (lately I don't even get the 3CPs before an early stuart, not because I don't kill anything, simply because some Wehrmacht players have realised that you don't have to fight T1 in most cases). It's a different story in 2v2 and above but balance is always focused on 1v1.

Ah... so we should use the ht mg, which doesn't have good enough damage to really do damage against the commandos.

And I'm not dumb enough to waste troops, since I do have my retreat button, and I do know how to play. I'm just saying that the commandos have the abilities and damage to counter all early units. You need atleast a puma, but that one needs 35+50+35+35 (165) fuel if you do not build a krieg barracks or wehrmacht quarters. At that point the enemy already has fuel for 2 stuarts...

And the xp can easily be made with brits, since with harrassing and attacking you can force the enemy to lose troops. Also, the emplacements give xp aswell... the 3 points is easily reachable if you know the means of obtaining them.

And the PaK is worth crap, since the british tanks are fast. And let's have a scenario of 1 stuart and 1 commandos that have already been dropped..

You have the commandos capping a point, a ht comes in and shoots them for a tiny little bit of damage. the stuart comes in, the PaK shoots it, you take the stuart out of the reach of PaK, and run the commandos to the PaK using the consealing smoke and when near the PaK, the crew is already dead. Then you have the possibility of manning that PaK, and shooting the HT, or you can bring the stuart back for that.. But anyways, the wehr player is in the world of crap.

EDIT: I'm not saying that the commandos are unstoppable killing machines, I'm just saying that they are way too versitile...

[SuchisLife]

Unless you play Brit Noobs then its over for Wehr. Because my shreks have been nerfed I now have my pak with the shreked gren squad and mg42 in support. I see a lone firefly heading my way and I think haha. I get my first shot off, the glider drops on them and in a puff of smoke the terminator commandos are all over them. Well I lost a pak and 2 of my grens but I smile and say, lol he now has to pay 35mp to reinforce that 1 commando he lost.
Sorry for the humour but if you don't laugh, you cry.

[Arinax]

simply make smoke and instant cloak cost 35-50 ammo and it wont be spammed that much

[ViiKumi]

give them the ultimate nerf... Put commandos right under radio triangulation. Gliders could be dropped only inside the triangle made by the radio triangulation devices.

That oughta nerf them down like they nerfed fallschirms....
okay, that was sarcasm, but really, something needs to be done. The commandos are way too powerful for wehrmacht to handle without the vet 3 KCH's... And they're way too late game for commandos!

EDIT: Another way of balancing would be:
Make the glider cost 0 manpower and 125 munitions.
Remove the commandos from the glider.
Voilà, you have a new thing for killing infantry better than any other artillery.

[Pankake]

Ah... so we should use the ht mg, which doesn't have good enough damage to really do damage against the commandos.

Actually, with the MG buff, I've had a pio-manned HT suppress 2 of my Infantry Sections pretty instantly, give it a go.

[ViiKumi]

Actually, with the MG buff, I've had a pio-manned HT suppress 2 of my Infantry Sections pretty instantly, give it a go.

We're talking about commandos here.. suppress means nothing when against them, they just use the smoke, which breaks suppression.

[scoiatollo]

and than what? 6sec(?!) later they are revealed and either have to retreat or be killed...

[HellToupee]

HT with pios in is pretty much waste... when they get out of the HT, they will die before they can turn and use the flamer against the commandos...
Flamer HT is a bit more expensive... 220mp, 20 fuel, then 100 munitions. And you need the assault phase upgrade for that.

It takes a long time to get that without losing much of the map / strenght... And ofcourse the stuart tank gets in by the same time you get that HT out, then the flamer is 100% waste... There really isn't a reliable way to counter commandos in early/ midgame.


flamen HT is never a waste vs brits, if you rush for it you can easily have it before he has counters to it. It dominates brit infantry big time and they can do little about it.

[mardal]

I have always found mp40 volks smackdown commandos one on one. and by vet 3 you dont even lose a man.

[BoDyBaG2224]

If you switch the commando glider with the HQ one we are gonna see more complaints about commandos imo. Early PIAT commandos, mobile mortars. I would like the change, but some people may get even more pissed off.

[Splitmonkey]

Doubt it, i wold rather see a piat commando squad charge my 42 than a commando one

[Jaigen]

That would be a good idea. the vickers mortar and piat squads will give the commando tree a lot more flexibility it needs vs the pe and prevents easy mode vs the wehrmacht


I have always found mp40 volks smackdown commandos one on one. and by vet 3 you dont even lose a man.

I want a truck full with the stuff your smoking. i think 3 squads equipped with mp40 and vet 3 might defeat the commando's

[tuffy!]

I have always found mp40 volks smackdown commandos one on one. and by vet 3 you dont even lose a man.i dont know where you're getting this from.

[Vretsu]

@Tuffy: get a HT with pios in it, they are >>>>>>>>>>>>commandos (unless you lost Schrecks) and will be around before commandos.

While the HT's front MG provides deceptively good fire support...the above statement simply isn't true, at least in my experience.

Pay no attention to my signature. It can do no harm. >.>

[AnyKey]

I would really like to see the Volksgrenadiers come out alive from a 1 on 1 encounter with commandos first, or let along survive the 10 second firefight in which they all end up as KIAs..

[Monkeypoop]

can everyone please try doing some testing before you start backing into here with stuff like mp40 volks will kill commandos. This is plain not true.

TEST STUFF BEFORE YOU SAY IT

don't make up junk

[TheUnknown]

I can help with that anykey I just have to see if 2.201 can play the replay and a place to upload it, since I had a full volksquad kill a full commandosquad.
Assault grenades are wonderfull tings you know ;)

Edit: the replay is of a old version date of the replay is 04-11-2007 if anyone can be bothered to downgrade to the version that was running at that date I can upload it other wise you will have to take my word for it.

[SuchisLife]

I had a full volksquad kill a full commandosquad.
I'd like to see that too. If true you should rush out now and buy a lottery ticket before your 1 chance in a million luck runs out.

Are you sure the volks wern't sitting in a bunker with an mg42 and a flame pio, surronded by a heavy mine field and a V1 dropped on the commandos heads. Oh wait, that would only account for loosing 2 out of the 6 comms, LOL.

[mardal]

Look if you have not used the Volks with mp40 against the commando then dont flame the claim, I posted it because i use it and it works.

[Demonic Spoon]

You could afford two MP40 volks squads for each commando squad, which would lay waste to them.

[MrSomeguy]

I beat commando's with MP40 volks once. I was at a FHQ, constantly reinforcing, he was at his glider, doing the same. Eventually I just used assault grenades and to my suprise, killed them all very quickly.

Other than that, my test tend to show that commando's will beat MP40 volks with ~2 deaths. 2 Squads of MP40 volks will defeat commandos with heavy casualtys.

[Demonic Spoon]

Did you lab different situations? In your little test, who was charging? Was the defender using cover? etc...

[B4_life]

I think in this situation its mostly a matter of who charges whom, and what cover the defending squad has. Whoever charges against yellow or green cover, loses.

[Demonic Spoon]

Right, and because you are the one with the MGs and other long range firepower, the commandos will end up charging the volks.

[tatatank]

and then commandos toss a 30 range grenade at your pathetic attempts to use an mg against them.

[Demonic Spoon]

and then commandos toss a 30 range grenade at your pathetic attempts to use an mg against them.

Such an MG would be behind your volks if you're using it correctly. Attempting to get in range to toss a nade would result in rushing straight into MP40 volks/flames/etc. You, meanwhile, reinforce/recrew your MG and laugh as his 560 MP commando squad dies horribly.

[tatatank]

actually, if his volks were that far up, i wouldnt have needed to toss a grenade in the first place demonic, or i could have tossed it at the volks themselves.

[Demonic Spoon]

Which would do...what? At range 30, it will take long enough for you to run up after tossing that by the time you get in effective range, I'll be back in cover. Besides, if I have an MG42 shooting at you, you'll be suppressed, which means you need to smoke (removing your ability to throw a nade) or run.

Mg42s have a range of 45.

[LawrenceofArabi]

The single problem I see with commandos is players using them as their entire infantry force. I saw too many British players building a few tommy squads in the early game, getting the CPs for commandos and proceeding to replace said tommys with commandos as the tommys died. Picking the commando tree should not mean that you get an awesome replacement infantry unit for your tommys once you hit late game.

The source of this problem lay not in how good commandos were at anti-infantry (although this does make them even more appealing) but in the fact that commandos were considerably cheaper in reinforcement cost than tommys. The immensely cheaper reinforcements more than makes up for the extreme cost (especially when massing them), even more so when you consider that tommy squads themselves aren't cheap by any means.

This is simply NOT how commandos should work. They are behind the lines harassment with the offensive ability to quickly destroy weaker units before the opposing player has a chance to react. This is FINE. But this also means a British player should never really have 3 squads on the field at the same time, ever (the same logic should apply to how rangers/paratroopers are applied as well, paras already achieving that role)

In summary, Commandos should never be your main combat force, that role should be held by tommys exclusively. Enact changes so this role balance is clearly established and then see if damage/health/etc changes are truly needed.

[ViiKumi]

You could afford two MP40 volks squads for each commando squad, which would lay waste to them.

Well you get that with the mp the other player uses, but there still is the cost of 100munitions. And after that, there'll still be the pop cap cost... I think that they should make all elite infantry cost 2 pop cap / man, just like with wehrmacht, which have 2 pop cap /man squads (Knights Cross Holders, Stormtroopers). And maybe give the commandos an extra nerf aswell...

[rifleman]

Yeah all call-in infantry (Stormtroopers, Rangers, Fallschirmjagers, US Paratroopers, Luftwaffe troops and Commandos) should have a population count of 2 per man. I have posted this on a another thread too. Call-infantry should spice-up one's army, not form the core of it.

[CommanderHolt]

Luftwaffe Ground Forces, U.S Paras shouldn't have a Pop cap of 2 because....

LWGF are basically Volks that can repair and build better stuff.

U.S Paras have Poor AI ability and are only good with muns abilitys and RR and of course the surprise element.

[LawrenceofArabi]

Well the best balance for call-in infantry I've seen is vCoH Paratroopers. You had an awesome anti-tank and emplacement unit with fireup but if you used them as your main infantry force you would expirience the eyebleeding pain of a 62 MP reinforce.

I would even go out on a limb and say that 90% of the problems with call-in infantry would be solved by a reinforce cost of 40+ (granted you actually need squad members to die to need to reinforce the squad *cough* rangers *cough*, but thats the 10%)

[rifleman]

Ok, maybe the Luft guys shouldn't have 2pop/man, but I can't accept the argument about Paras cause what you said stands true with S-Troopers also.

Laurence the high reinforcement cost sounds good, I hadn't thought of it. You should watch out for that cough, it's Rangeritis :D

The thread is about gliders and we are drifting off.

[ViiKumi]

Luftwaffe Ground Forces, U.S Paras shouldn't have a Pop cap of 2 because....

LWGF are basically Volks that can repair and build better stuff.

U.S Paras have Poor AI ability and are only good with muns abilitys and RR and of course the surprise element.

I did not say that all call-in units should have it... just the elite infantry (KCH, Stromtroopers, rangers, commandos, fallschirmjägers). Airborne is OK as it is...

[rifleman]

ViiKumi, I 'm sorry, when I 'm thinking of elite infantry I tend to think only of call-in elite infantry (*cough* Rangers *cough* Commandos - Laurence I think this cough infectious), but it's not just them.

[lance81]

I played a 2v2 game over the weekend where I lost my FS and AS trucks due to FSJ's popping out of houses behind my lines and they just started faust'ing my trucks. Now because this happened am I now saying that FSJ's should not be allowed to pop out of houses in my territory? Nope. I am realising that I was syupid to leave my trucks unprotected.

[Splitmonkey]

Are you sure that happened because thats like 1000 munitions worth of fausts to kill 2 trucks?

[lance81]

Yep, I saw them doing it. The PE player may have used the Luft air strike on the trucks as well but they could not have done it with out the FSJ's being there to spot for them so the FSJ's being able to infiltrate behind my lines links directly to me loosing my trucks because I was not defending the properly.

[saikou]

Gosh, we cant have that now can we?

[lance81]

Gosh, we cant have that now can we?

Sarcasim is the lowest form of wit....

My point was that there is no problem with with FSJ's spawning in buildings in my territory at all! Therefore I see no problems with Commando gliders dropping behind enemy lines.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

My point was that there is no problem with with FSJ's spawning in buildings in my territory at all! Therefore I see no problems with Commando gliders dropping behind enemy lines.

Okay.. this is a silly comparison.

FSJ's have a default infantry killer weapon (doesn't need an upgrade) .. Check
FSJ's have good defense counters from being attacked by other infantry killers... check
FSJ's carry high explosives to be used on enemy OP's, slowmoving vehicles, enemy buildings, and of course as boobtraps on Victory points.... check
FSJ's have a low reinforce cost... check
FSJ's have a 6 man squad with 65 hp... check


Except that NONE OF THE ABOVE IS ACTUALLY TRUE. I mistyped the above, it should have ready Commando's instead of FSJ. FSJ's have none of those things. Granted they are much cheaper...But the same MP worth of Commandos as FSJ's isn't even close.

Commando's are supposed to be an 'epic heroic' unit. Thats okay. However, they still reinforce to cheaply, and some of their abilities can be too powerful. There's a great thread about how cheap PE boobytraps are... Yet commandos can boobytrap points with demo charges... no one seems to remember that. Right now, Commando's can place demo charges while invisible from smoke. (I believe this is being changed).

Why bother building tommies once you have commando's? Sure the initial cost is a little higher(110 manpower) but they reinforce for the same as tommies, and have the same pop cap, they don't have a speed problem, and have awesome abilities.

Wonderful, you don't see the benefit of the price difference between commandos and tommies until you build 4 of them ?!?! 4 commandos = 560*4 = 2240. Tommies 450* 5= 2250..(BTW dont forget that commandos are a 6 man squad, while tommies are a 5 man squad).

So... which would you have? 5 tommie squads, or 4 commando squads?

Commando's are OP right now, plain and simple, that's why they are being adjusted. I think that these particular changes won't stop the problem, and we're going to see more commando changes in the future.

Again, I don't have a problem with Commando's even dropping in unclaimed enemy territory if they are a little weaker. As the current infantry replacing t1000 terminators they are today, I have a problem with them dropping anywhere outside of controlled territory.

[lance81]

So your saying that two opposing units must be identical in order for them to have similar abilities (appearing behind enemy lines)??

[Znuff]

lance81, you are missing the big difference. You can drop Commandos ontop of several enemy units and kill or force them to retreat. Compare this with summoning FJs into combat with a single enemy unit and be forced to retreat your FJs as they are crappy before upgraded. FJs lack long range pocket nukes and super mines as well so arent realy a threat right away. If FJs came pre-upgraded like Commandos then their infiltration would be alot more powerfull then now.

[lance81]

I am not missing the big difference at all. I am focusing on the glider aspect of commando's only. Are commandos in need of a couple of nerf's? Hell yes but that is not what this thread is about, its about gliders and where they can land and the nerfs they require have nothing to do with the way they arrive on the battle field. They should be able to drop in any territory that is not the enemies base.

If you dont want them dropping in and destroying your arty then defend it. Dont scream for the ability to be removed.

You dont see any Brit players screaming for storms to loose their cloak because they lost thier 25lbr to 2 cloaked storm shrek squads with bundle nades.

Just because a player cannot figure out a way to defend it it doesnt mean it is OP. There could be many other reasons for it.

[MrFinsch]

I feel commando balance is far off.
This unit is so obviously superior in fighting power to other infantry while being available very early without any fuel or ammo cost and on top of that also comes with a stunning set of abilities that only rangers might live up to.

I consider the concept of superior elite troops that outperform all other units that share the same purpose a bad one.

Commandos should be able to land in all territory. Their smoke should be normal smoke. Their fighting power vs other dedicated AI infantry should be greatly reduced.
And I don't talk about a slight adjustment. Damage and survivability should be cut down a lot.

They should not replace other infantry. They should drop behind enemy lines and kill that pesky Nebelwerfer. They should cut supply by taking crucial sectors quickly. But if you want fighting power, Commandos should not pop in your mind as first choice.

What could really help is if they would receive higher damage when squads are grouped closely together. Since they are 6 men squads this modifier should be much higher than for Pio squads.

This way, Commandos could still do damage behind enemy lines. Thae can really operate commando-like. But when grouped together as a main fighting force, they die quickly.

edit:
@lance81:
I think these two factors are closely related. A unit much worse in fighting power or much less versatile would be fine if it could drop everywhere.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

The point is that the units power/abilities coupled with it's deployment options are what makes the unit too much.

What do you want, the uber unit Infantry killer, with demo and defense capabilities? or the attack from anywhere unit? Right now it being both is the problem.

So, if you don't want to touch the commando's power, than touch it's deployment capability. Or if you don't want to touch the commando's deployment capabilities, than you will need to tone them down somehow.



You dont see any Brit players screaming for storms to loose their cloak because they lost thier 25lbr to 2 cloaked storm shrek squads with bundle nades.
You won't. Unlike commandos, cloaked storms have to 'walk in'. They will be detected by any unit long before they get near that 25lb'r, unless you only built a 25lbr, with no other units. If you did that, you deserve to lose it.

[MrFinsch]

Touching only the deployment options did not stop people from excessively using Commandos. We saw that during the beta.
For me, the main advantage of Commandos is not their deployment capability. I get them because they cost no ammo, no fuel for teching while being superior to other infantry that is not even on par with ammo investments.

[lance81]

You won't. Unlike commandos, cloaked storms have to 'walk in'. They will be detected by any unit long before they get near that 25lb'r, unless you only built a 25lbr, with no other units. If you did that, you deserve to lose it.

Firstly Brits have terrible cloak detection radius so it is not that easy to spot the storms.

Secondly, if you leave your nebels undefended then you also deserve to loose them to commandos dropping in.

Thirdly, I never said I wanted them to remain as an uber killing unit. I just dont want them to loose the ability to drop behind enemy lines as it is what commandos are meant to do.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Absolutely, no one is saying undefended things should be safe from harm. The issue is that commandos are so powerful, AND so easily deployed anywhere that it really is hard to have that much defense everywhere.

Earlier in the thread, we talked about what was needed to defend 2 nebels from 1 commando team.. 2 squads of infantry would easily be killed. It was said that maybe 1 armored car with a HMG supporting it could limit the Commandos to only killing maybe 1 of the nebels. But even then a lucky grenade, and some effective cover use by the commando's there's a chance that both nebels are toast, with the commandos then surviving (via retreating). That's a bad player using commandos too.. a good player would be a little more risky/aggressive. Smoke Flank the HMG, and then try to demo charge the AC, then IF the AC goes to Kite, then fall back, waste the Nebels and retreat anyway.

Right now, I don't think Relic wants to depower commandos, so they are looking into limiting their deployment.

[tatatank]

Commandos are only overpowered against wehrmacht. PE can handle them easily. They are only an uber killing unit against wehrmacht because if you look at the stats.

http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/panzerelite/weapons/fg42.html
http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/british/weapons/stensmg.html

fg42 fallz vs commandos. the fg42 does a full 7 damage per shot with full accuracy, and it has better accuracy at all ranges above short, and at short range they are equal. This also applies to mp44s.

stens on the other hand only do .5 damage a shot with a .75 accuracy against PE troops. Against wehrmacht its 1.0 accuracy and .75 damage.

That is not really a problem until you factor in that Wehrmacht doesnt get lots of infantry killing power from thier infantry until tier 4, or tier 3, and if its tier 3 then the lmg doesnt = 6 smgs.

the stens themselves are not uber weapons, they are far from it. they just happen to have 6, and just happen to face an army that does not have equal or near equal access to smgs. Sure there are volks with mp40s, but they get chewed up so fast its not even funny.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

It really comes down to power or mobility. FMJ's ARE mobile, but they aren't as powerful as your making them out to be. FMJ's need that upgrade to be useful.. They can only come out of houses. That's pretty limiting too. Their abilities are on 4 minute timers..

You realize that upgrade takes time right? IF there is a house nearby, I can summon FMJ;s, and 30 seconds later, they will be effective...

You cant' compare the two, because they weren't meant to be. If you really want to try and compare them, take a look at the FMJ's deployment capabilities.. No houses, no FMJ's. 4 minute timers on FMJ abilities, with no real defensive special abilities. FMJ's are a 4 man squad with less HP.

Someone earlier mentioned they lost their trucks to FMJ's.. How the hell did that happen? The PFaust is on a 4 minute timer? So let's say he has 3 squads... That would kill 1 truck... but to get a second salvo, he needs to wait 4 minutes... 4 minutes is an eternity. Also, just try not to park your truck near buildings, and no more FMJ threat.

again, it's stupid to compare these two units. They weren't meant to be compared. But let's keep going anyway, because people continue to say commandos are there because of FMJ's

There are no high timers on commando abilities, with the highest being ~45 seconds. (Demo charge = 0 second timer, Nuclear Pineapple = 15 seconds, smoke=45 seconds). The abilities do not cost that much munition either.

Which do you want: Uber AI killing machine with sweet low timer abilities, or Absolute Deployment?

[TheUnknown]

Are you sure the volks wern't sitting in a bunker with an mg42 and a flame pio, surronded by a heavy mine field and a V1 dropped on the commandos heads. Oh wait, that would only account for loosing 2 out of the 6 comms, LOL.

What basicly happend I was just going to move the volks away when he dropped his commandos 1m away from them, activated the assault grenade so 2 where left at very low health. Afther that the volks finished it of I did had only 2 or 1 volks left.

And nothing els was in the area since it was captureing a point back.

The replay is only screwed up by the new patches since I cant imagion i would start by building 1 piece of barbedwire in my base and then move my pio team away to capture tings and then never build anyting :P

[Monkeypoop]

thats not a fair comparison. Of course if you used assault grenade you will have an advantage, but you are obviously paying munition to do that. A real player would have popped smoke, tossed a nade and closed the gap to massacre you. It would MAYBE be a fair comparison if HE threw a grenade at you while you used assault grenade capability, then popped free smoke to break your ability

if you do 1v1 mp40 vs Commandos on EQUAL cover, each charging the other, mp40 loses big time. (and i'm not saying they should win, due to mp differences, but that you guys really need to learn to first lab things before you say them, and secondly, lab things in a equal manner or next time you'll be saying "oh pios can beat commandos. , o wait i forgot to mention i had 5 squads of them and they were vet 3 and they all had flamers")

[CommanderHolt]

Someone earlier mentioned they lost their trucks to FMJ's.. How the hell did that happen? The PFaust is on a 4 minute timer? So let's say he has 3 squads... That would kill 1 truck... but to get a second salvo, he needs to wait 4 minutes... 4 minutes is an eternity. Also, just try not to park your truck near buildings, and no more FMJ threat.

There was a change that PanzerFaust now are on a MUCH lower cooldown (I think its like Werh Volks) and aren't dependant on a Mun HT anymore. (The Anti-Building Grenade still has 4min cooldown.)

[Nomad_Wanderer]

You're right. I missed that in the patch notes, and haven't played Luftwaffe yet.

Still the comparison between FMJ's and Commandos is downright silly.

[MrSomeguy]

Maybe if we make the demo charge plantable in frienly territory only, and give 2 popcap to all elite units. (Rangers, Commando's, Storms, KCH, AG) But yeah, Para's, LGF, and Falls shouldn't need 2 pop per man.

[ViiKumi]

Maybe if we make the demo charge plantable in frienly territory only, and give 2 popcap to all elite units. (Rangers, Commando's, Storms, KCH, AG) But yeah, Para's, LGF, and Falls shouldn't need 2 pop per man.

I don't think that Assault grenadiers should have 2 pop cap /man, since they're not of a lot of trouble here... But why the falls shouldn't? They're pretty much elite troopers, and should have 2 pop cap...

[Quercus]

As I suggested elsewhere - reduce the Commando squads to 5 men (but increase the damage output to match current values), double the population cost to 2 per man and give a delay upon landing before they are deployed.
Oh yes, increase reinforcement cost and time slightly.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Maybe if we make the demo charge plantable in frienly territory only, and give 2 popcap to all elite units. (Rangers, Commando's, Storms, KCH, AG) But yeah, Para's, LGF, and Falls shouldn't need 2 pop per man.

Demo charge is ok outside of friendly territory, it just needs some timers on it. This happened last night to me :). Commandos drop in on victory point that has a manpower point next to it (Hill331 right side). Even though I had 3 squads of PG's and a locked scoutcar, Commandos were able to take out everything...

Commando's are elite that's ok.. I had lots of infantry type things so my bad. The issue is that he was able to use a demo charge on the scout car, kill the PG's, cap the vp, then set a demo charge at the base of the vp. In other words, Demo charges are currently being used as vehicle grenades, vehicle/infantry mines, and boobytraps. I'm not sure that's so good. It would be nice if there was a timer on the demo charge... So you couldn't spam them.

I don't mind that I lost the point, and my scoutcar, and 3 pg squads to the 1 squad of commandos. It's that my reinforcements, AC and MP44 Gren's, were so easily taken out by the Demo Mine, and Demo Boobytrap.


It was a close game.. Where each side was down to about 25 vps.... We lost when the AC and Mp44 went down.. If the demo charges even had a 60 second timer on them, the one commando squad wouldn't have been able to place so many...

[sigrun]

I play all factions, but as an Axis focussed 1v1 auto player, I have to comment that it gets more than a little tiresome constantly chasing early Commandos around on my turf whilst still struggling to turn out just basic units to fend of early Brit sledghammer infantry and halt their digging in everywhere whilst blasting away at me with arty from afar. Now Commandos wouldn't be half so bad if the game had a production mechanism and population cap like so many other RTS' which allowed numbers to be furnished adequate for both support (guarding) duties as well as offensive/defensive action. But it doesn't.

So Relic, how about 'balancing' a bit more to give PE Fallshirmjaegers DFS230 gliders of their own with behind the lines landing capability too just to spice up life for the Yanks and Brits a bit? After all, that's where the Brits got the idea to build Hotspurs and later deploy Horsas & Hamiltons from in the first place. ie: DFS230 borne FJ assaulting Eben Emael and in Norway, Crete, Libya, et al

[Unicous]

sigrun, why would the german army would want a glider to land in their own/annexed territory?

[ZarX]

Imo...we just need to bring back the old Falls...then it would be balanced! :) People seem to forget..Falls are AI only...and completly suck at it.

[tatatank]

fallz arent anti infantry only, they are anti infantry, minor anti vehicle, and anti building. The last thing we need is for 1 fallz squad to be able to kill 3 bar riflemen squads again.

They will also beat any attacking infantry when they defend. Which is what they are designed for, ambushing and taking and holding key areas behind enemy lines. just like commandos do, but only they are balanced. Commandos only need a few tweaks against wehrmacht and they will be pretty much fine.

[Jaigen]

fallz arent anti infantry only, they are anti infantry, minor anti vehicle, and anti building. The last thing we need is for 1 fallz squad to be able to kill 3 bar riflemen squads again.

They will also beat any attacking infantry when they defend. Which is what they are designed for, ambushing and taking and holding key areas behind enemy lines. just like commandos do, but only they are balanced. Commandos only need a few tweaks against wehrmacht and they will be pretty much fine.

fsj arent worth it plain and simple even with ambush. right now thx to an enormous amount of whine on the allied players the fsj got reduced to a weaker mp44 squad GG

[tatatank]

actually, the fsj are better at medium and long range than the mp44. the mp44 is only better when assaulting at close range. Ive had this argument plenty already though. If you dont like them, dont use them, but when fsj can kill any opposing infantry squad that is charging them i dont see a problem.

[natrapsmai]

fsj arent worth it plain and simple even with ambush. right now thx to an enormous amount of whine on the allied players the fsj got reduced to a weaker mp44 squad GG

More like an enormous amount of "oh shit I'm American again and I'm playing against nothing but FJ spam..."

[Firelock]

What annoys me is the Glider landing on support units and crushing them - no matter what I have 'guarding' that unit. Especially when my Puma can't crush jack.

People don't spam FSJ anymore and for good reason. They are pretty useful, but in the right circumstances. You can use them as defensive AI or add some AT to them. You have options and tune as you want.

People do spam Commandos. Surely that tells you everything you need to know about whether they are a balanced unit or not? People spam'd Grenadiers with Shrecks for the same reason.

[scoiatollo]

You know why commandos are spammed? They are fast even without a Lt that's survivability is not that great, they are a brilliant AI-unit, plus you have something to scare the mgs away.

On the other hand we have falls that get a Faust which deals 225dmg (if they share the same Faust with the Volks) to a Pershing, get one of the most powerful (i not the most powerful) AI weapon for some mun, are "cheaper" than Commandos, and have a camouflage ability that's much better than commando smoke.

Makes sense now why "noone" is using falls...

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Ok.. Let's make commando's only come out of buildings....

That would be a huge outcry of how commandos were nerfed. Yet thats how one must use FMJ's.

Again, over and over again, these two units are not equivalent. They are not meant to be.

If you put a 1 min timer on demo charges, make smoke and grenade on the same timer, make smoke normal, commandos are fine.

[scoiatollo]

1min? you are joking right? 20sec at most. Smoke and nades already share a timer...
How about getting rid of smoke and give them the Fall camou system, would imo made sense with commandos as behind enemy line units.

[Quercus]

I would agree with that. Bear in mind that the Commando smoke is more powerful (they can be moving) but only lasts 6 seconds. The Falls camo requires them to be still but will last for the entire game if necessary.
Personally I would much rather use the Falls camo system for all such units (including Stormtroopers), that way the sneaky sneaky units need to carefully move themselves into position using cover, rather than just walking across the middle of the battlefield.

Camouflage should not be magical invisibility. It should be something used to to move into position in readiness for an attack, or to "melt into the scenery" to avoid detection after one.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Do you realize that right now, demo charges are being used as mines, boobytraps, and antivehicle grenades?

It's 1 explosive that fits MANY different roles.

They are a very powerful explosive. 1 well placed Demo charge can take out an entire squad, or a vehicle? YOU get to decide when to blow it. Is that ketten not worth the mine, because an armored car is coming, well don't hit the button till the AC gets there. Trick out the PE/Wehr player thinking there are no mines there.

They almost do as much damage as teller mines. What's the cooldown on those? (30 seconds)

They are better than boobytraps. What's the cooldown on those? (?? 2min?)

They do more damage than anti-vehicle grenades. What's the cooldown on those? (240 seconds)

60 seconds is a good number for demo charges. Again, 1 ability can serve ALL of the above purposes.

BTW, What's the timer on the Sappers ability, place demo charge? (60 seconds).

Nothing like Commandos to be better at placing explosives than the explosive expert sappers.

[scoiatollo]

They are a very powerful explosive. 1 well placed Demo charge can take out an entire squad, or a vehicle?

IIRC they have nearly no damage against vehicles, as for the first part, the same applies to bundled nades as well...

They almost do as much damage as teller mines. What's the cooldown on those? (30 seconds)

IIRC a Teller mine deals 500dmg whereas a demo charge deals 200, that's not even close! (I can't check coh-stats here so correct me if I'm wrong here)

They are better than boobytraps. What's the cooldown on those? (?? 2min?)

They serve a different purpose, boobytraps are a psychological factor, and don't have to be triggered manually, plus they are free.

They do more damage than anti-vehicle grenades. What's the cooldown on those? (240 seconds)

Again, I don't think that they do that much damage against vehicles.

[sporty]

Oh, they do. Only their higher number of hitpoints make vehicles more survivable than infantry.
But shouldn't we be talking about glider landing?

[Nomad_Wanderer]

The power (read abilities and strength) of commandos COMBINED with their deployment options are why Commandos are OP.

One of those two things needs to be adjusted.

Some people dont want the deployment options adjusted.


For the record, Teller mines are 400-500 damage.
Demolition Charges do 300. With no Cooldown, theres no reason to not put 6 down in like 10 seconds. 6*300 = 1800.

It doesn't matter how much vehicle armor you have.

The ability needs a cooldown. Sappers (the demo experts) have to wait 1 min.. Why not commandos.

[lance81]

With no Cooldown, theres no reason to not put 6 down in like 10 seconds.

Ther eis a very good reason not too. It would cost you 300muni and it takes a lot longer to deploy a demo charge than 10 seconds....

[Nomad_Wanderer]

6 was an exaggeration. Scoiatella was saying you couldn't use demo charges to blow vehicles. With no cooldown it's very easy to setup a better ambush than teller mines, costing the same amount of munitions, with less time.

That same ambush could be also used to kill infantry, or boobytrap a point.

As I said before, if you do not want to touch the commando's deployment options, adjust their power, 1 suggestion:

Fix Smoke, and put a 60 second (same as sapper 'place demo') timer on demo charges.

[lance81]

As I said before, if you do not want to touch the commando's deployment options, adjust their power, 1 suggestion:

Fix Smoke, and put a 60 second (same as sapper 'place demo') timer on demo charges.

Sounds fair. I would also suggest increasing their reinforce cost and remove the ability to build trenches.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Small moves. With testing in between.

They are getting a reinforce cost bump in the beta. If you also add the sapper timer to demo charges, and fix smoke.

That's enough to try it out for a while. Then re-evaluate.

[d4md]

If the glider crush is going to be left in, what about adding that the glider get destroyed by things in the field with heavy crush or require heavy crush to destroy, if the glider hits it during it landing. (Tank traps, road blocks, tanks)

Basically, if glider slides through tank traps, it should shred the glider and no commandos pop out. If the glider runs into a tank, it should also go boom. As it is, the glider does get shredded as it slides through tank traps, but after the glider gets blown up, commandos still appear. Running into tanks has no effect at all on the glider save the tank shooting at it, but after about 6 trials running into a P4, commandos always popped out. Only when running into a ostwind did the commandos not pop out and that was more due to the ostwind shooting the glider on the approach and weakening it for the tank traps to help finish it off.

[Sach]

Slightly off topic but i used commandos in a game yesterday and I found it incredibly difficult to get them to land. They didn't seem to want to land anywhere near the enemy, is this to stop the crushing?

Also they were able to reinforce from the glider, i thought this had been removed except for the HQ.

[D'yer Mak'er]

d4md, the glider gets hurt pretty badly if you land it in a stupid spot in the first place. I have had my gliders die quite a few times before the commandos even got out, it is possible to kill it.

You guys really are going too far with the Commando nerf calling. Axis infantry are quite capable of committing heinous acts too :p.

[d4md]

d4md, the glider gets hurt pretty badly if you land it in a stupid spot in the first place. I have had my gliders die quite a few times before the commandos even got out, it is possible to kill it.

You guys really are going too far with the Commando nerf calling. Axis infantry are quite capable of committing heinous acts too .

I know it possible to kill the glider before commandos pop out, but if you read my post, you'd see that 6 out of 6 times sliding through a field of tank traps, not just 1, a field of tank traps and then running right into a P4, the commandos still come out.

I'm not calling for a nerf, calling for a balance. If the glider can slide kill units, the glider should get slide killed as well when hitting certain units and no commandos should pop out. If someone takes the time to build tank traps around a nebel site and the glider goes sliding in, let think about that, the Tank Traps stops any vehicle except heavy crushers. Will also force the brit player to either forward observe their drop zone or risk loosing a lot of MP.

[D'yer Mak'er]

Ok, yeah, that sounds reasonable, but one thing:

The gliders were made with "rip-off" parts, such as the wings and stuff, that would come off very easily to not destroy the entire frame.

There is also the fact that you can't glider drop in enemy territory anymore, so I don't see why its really necessary.

[lance81]

There is also the fact that you can't glider drop in enemy territory anymore, so I don't see why its really necessary.

Relic have now changed it so that you can drop commandos anywhere except for the enemy base sector.

[ViiKumi]

They should just make the glider drop a lot less accurate... they should change the targeting to a system like paratroopers or artillery, and then the glider would drop from a slightly randomized direction (from the direction of your base, so that it wouldn't be shot from the sky by the flakvierlings), and it wouldn't be 100% accurate like now. If the relic would do that, then the commandos would be perfect to me, great AI with great abilities, but unable to crush units accurately.

[Pankake]

A little randomisation could work, but it could be problematic, also, on maps like St. Hillaire for example, it's a nightmare trying to land a glider there, just narrow alleyways and roads, if it went careering off into a building and all my commandos died, I wouldn't be a happy bunny.

[natrapsmai]

A little randomisation could work, but it could be problematic, also, on maps like St. Hillaire for example, it's a nightmare trying to land a glider there, just narrow alleyways and roads, if it went careering off into a building and all my commandos died, I wouldn't be a happy bunny.

I would love to see that sorta stuff from a realistic and "hey that's damn cool" perspective. If such a thing happened (crash into building) I would expect a refund on a 600MP unit, however.

[D'yer Mak'er]

Relic have now changed it so that you can drop commandos anywhere except for the enemy base sector.

Hell, I didn't realize that.

[scoiatollo]

Well maybe it should be changed that if your glider collapse due the landing, you'll just get a crippled 3-4man squad instead of 6members. that will actually force anyone to retreat them asap.

As for the randomisation, it's a big no! I already managed to enclose a single commando member between an obstacle and the glider which rendered the whole troop useless cause they couldn't retreat or actually take place in the fighting. Also refunding will not work in that case so it's a big no go for a 560mp unit.

[ViiKumi]

As for the randomisation, it's a big no! I already managed to enclose a single commando member between an obstacle and the glider which rendered the whole troop useless cause they couldn't retreat or actually take place in the fighting. Also refunding will not work in that case so it's a big no go for a 560mp unit.

It's not a perfect suggestion, but it's a suggestion anyways that would stop the crushing... At this point it's totally frustrating that british have an artillery for just manpower, it doesn't have smoke, it lands soon, and it has an über AI squad inside of it... Randomization would be totally great. (refunding would suck, then it would be imba again, since it would be a free artillery)

[scoiatollo]

I really did never get this part of the game tbh. Why the hell aren's the guys evading the incoming object?! It's the very same thing with tanks, they even seem to jump purposely in front of them to get killed. If you change that I believe you want have your super accurate artillery.