[2.314]Sherman upgun and smoke upgrade

[Goret]

Fuelcost decrease on both theese upgrades is very wellcome but i do think that upgunn comes too early now.

Before you had to decide getting one more sherman on the field or getting an upgun for the ones you had already on the field.
Now with 50 fuel upgun the choice becomes pretty obvious.

And the smoke should be avaible even earlyer to help with shermans survivability.

I would rahter see the upgun back to 80-85 fuel
but decreasing the smoke upgrade further to have it cost no fuel cost at all.

purchasing both upgrades will be the same as now.
But the upgunn will still be a more lategame asset while the smoke a much more common sight!

[Pankake]

It doesn't dramatically effect the Sherman, it just helps it penetrate armor that it should penetrate anyway, like the StuG. And it nerfs it's anti-infantry power, it's basically no good against the Panzer Elite, because it doesn't need that extra penetration, all PE vehicles are lightly armored for the most part, and it needs it's AoE for anti-infantry duties.

Against wehr.. well, wehr has enough armor to counter a Sherman.

[AntiCommie]

It doesnt nerf its AntiInfantry power at all. It actually minorly buffs it. (It goes from 3.0 splash to 3.3, unless something has changed since retail. Its been like that since Vanilla). The upgun doesnt hurt at all.

I actually like the change. Before it was a no brainer to get as well, it was more of a tech cost to slow down shermans against Stugs/P4s. With the Pak buffs and the cheaper T4, its not needed as much. Now its even better to go Shermans, since they can do it all, rather then M10/Crocs, as Vanilla(1.5?) mostly featured.

[Noir]

It doesnt nerf its AntiInfantry power at all. It actually minorly buffs it. (It goes from 3.0 splash to 3.3, unless something has changed since retail. Its been like that since Vanilla). The upgun doesnt hurt at all.

I believe someone ran through the numbers over at GR and concluded that the upgun reduces Sherman AI power by 15.6%.

[Ecthelion]

And how the hell did they come to that conclusion?

Even a 15.6% decrease is too little, it should be more like 50%

[Noir]

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=335498&hl=upgun#

It's also a global upgrade, if that was the case then you probably should be able to choose which Sherman you want to have and not have the gun.

[maxfly77bis]

I think sherman upgunned must have same splash and accuracy modifier vs infantry as panther.

.2 splash now is 3.3
.6 accuracy now is .75

[AntiCommie]

I stand corrected. It is an overall nerf, but its actually a buff as well. You lose damage at long distances, but do more damage at point of impact. This is probably why Shermans always seem to gib 1-2 guys each shot, especially when they bunch up.

I still stand by my other statement. Its a no brainer to get, even at the higher cost. Its AT power increase still outweighs its AI power loss. Its just something you get after 2-3 Shermans, same as Wher tank vet.

[Goret]

Not sure but why even get m10 if you can get cheap upgun now instead. (situational aside)
Yes there is still the speed but getting a wall of upgunned shermans to slug it out might be more interesting.

Max i'm not sure if the AI loss should be too big when upgrading cause you still need the alround effectivness of the sherman and without upgun you can't compete with vetted panzers.

Antiecommie what do you mean by no brainer? you'll purchase it asap cause there is nothing to think about?

If yes well you prove my point, i just don't want the upgun to be the common sight right after the first sherman rolls out.

[AntiCommie]

maxfly: Are you saying thats what it should change to? If so, that would be bad. Unless the gun upgrade was a Per-Sherman basis. Making all Shermans have the AI power of Panthers would turn them into big M10s, without the punch, or range of a real tank destroyer (FF,Panther,M10).

Goret: I'll buy it the minute I know I'll have more then 1-2 Shermans, and they will see any German Armor. 75mm Shermans suck so bad against armor, they arent worth the cost. Buying without having Shermans would be stupid, but since the only downside is cost, you should buy it.

[bonemachine]

It almost brings the upgun upgrade into the Brit tank commander no brainer price range.

[sgb]

The M10 is still useful if you're low on resources. It's also good if you're going Rangers, as I don't need the better AI power of the Sherman in that case. The croc...well the croc is always going to suck at this point I think. I'd rather pay the extra MP and get a Sherman that is good vs. everything as opposed to just infantry. Which the croc loses to if there's more than 1 shrek...

[Pankake]

Like I said before, it's no use against Panzer Elite since there's nothing tough to penetrate, and if Panthers come out then the sherman is no match anyway, unless you outnumber them 2:1 which isn't cost effective (you can use a Pershing for that now! :D).

[Thinking42Man]

Despite those of you who can't stand to see the allies get anything, this won't be changed back. You already need two shermans out to make this worthwhile at all, which is 320fuel, its ridiculous for the upgrade to bump that all the way up to 410.

At 50 fuel, this upgrade is viable, like Wehr Tank Vet, but any higher, and you will see it disappear from competitive play, once again.

[Goret]

You probably do not grasp the idea behind no fuel cost for smoke, increasing survivability of shermans early on and getting the upgun later when you really need it.

besides wehr vet 2 is 400/85.

[Thinking42Man]

Tell me, how much is Wehr Tank Vet 1?

And that's beside the point. The main investment is actually getting the Sherman out. Once you have done that, you deserve it to not become obsolete against armor without an exorbitant fuel expenditure on top of what you've already spent.

[Goret]

I won't insist as you believe it's against americans to get smoke earlyer without fuel and upgun later if you need it.

[Thinking42Man]

... You have misunderstood me. I think it's good for the Americans to not have their main battle tank become obsolete when facing other forms of heavy armor and long range AT solutions; without paying another 150% of the cost of the tank which is being upgraded. Neither upgrade gives increased output or recieved damage, accuracy, recieved penetration, mounted MGs, or armored skirts, as the Wehrmacht Tank Veterancy upgrades do.

[Mikkow]

Even with the upgun they have quite poor penetration against many tanks. Outright worthless against some.

Personally I think the M10 Wolverine sucks. I think it needs a range boost similar to the panther (it's still a fragile tank). Even if it gets a cost boost.

[Tod]

The M10 seems to be damn good at penetrating now, in many beta replays I've seen it shoot through the front armor of a StuG or Hetzer from long range with ease.

[Duck141]

I just read the changlogs, smoke was reduced but I seen nothing about the gun upgread??

[Thinking42Man]

What were you expecting? It's perfect at 200mp, 50fuel.

[drChengele]

I was wondering why smoke never gets researched. I am guessing old habits die hard, post-1.4 people simply don't even see the smoke button any more, they've learned to filter it out. But with the way smoke works, and with the Schreck scatter increase, smoke is REALLY worthwhile. Since nobody will ever spend resources on smoke upgrade, I wanted to suggest it be not researched but gained automatically through Vet1 for Shermans (this would do good in conjunction with already existing speed increase Shermans get at vet1). However, with the new Schreck, I think smoke is just fine.

[Thinking42Man]

I think the problem is that the munition cost per use is still too high. It needs to go down from 35 to 25muni, it's really no more useful than a grenade or mine.

[Pankake]

Unfortunately the smoke doesn't effect the Panzershreck, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have any efect on merder shots, too, but that's not confirmed.

[drChengele]

Smoke does, in fact, affect Panzerschrecks, as it does all other weapons. It reduces their accuracy, meaning less "registered hits" are calculated. Basically anything shooting at smoke gets a registered miss. The problem used to be, with the Schreck's very low accuracy but very low scatter, that even the registered misses would not scatter. They'd therefore end up hitting the tank just as they would if there wasn't any smoke there.

With the higher Schreck scatter, the smoke actually does something now. It will basically cause all the Schreck shots to scatter away. I've tried the smoke and the difference is noticeable (insomuch as the smoke has at least some noticeable effect).

Besides all that, Sherman smoke is a very useful tactical option for retreating away from PaK ambushes.It can also be used to spearhead a head-on attack on MG42 guarded positions. Get in, pop smoke, flank with (or withdraw) your Sherman, put some Riflemen in the smoke and laugh as they draw all the fire.

[Thinking42Man]

Or nade through the smoke. Activatable abilities and indirect fire still work just dandy in smoke :). Plus they won't know what's coming till the timer starts to tick.

[Znuff]

I have a question. Why are the US global upgrades being compared to WM vet? If the US Global upgrades are as good as the WM vet then US gets both the advantage of global improvement in the same way as the WM vet but can also get vet on top of that. Otherwise so would it be more fair to change the WM vet system and let them get armor skirts and mgs as global upgrades. :banana: :banana:

[drChengele]

Don't get me started on Wehr veterancy. It's a soft spot.

[HellToupee]

smokes just something where the effects not immediately obvious and is only situationally useful.

[Znuff]

Well, lets not get sidetracked then. I just think that the WM vets should be stronger then normal global upgrades for the same cost as there is an addition cost in that you cant also get normal vet. It should be pretty obvious that if the WM had MGs and Armor Skirts for thier tanks for the same cost as the vet now and US style vet in addition so would that be alot better for WM then the current system. So I think that WM tank vet should have a larger impact then the Sherman upgun. Right now its the other way around. So either WM tank vet needs improved or the Sherman upgun needs a nerf. Either one works for me. :corn:

[HellToupee]

znuff the sherman upgun only applies to sherman, like the bars etc only apply to riflemen, the difference with wehr tank vet is it applies to all their tanks.