[2.316] Commandos... issues solved?

[Ano2]

Okay heres all the nerfs i've found regarding commandos from the changelog:

- Commando Infantry reinforce cost increased from 25 to 35
- British Commando Concealing Smoke and Commando Grenades share timers - abilities cannot be used at the same time.
- British Commando Glider, with the exception of the Glider HQ, will not allow reinforcements or be able to build units outside friendly territory.
- British Commandos cannot capture when using Concealing Smoke. Using smoke while capturing will stop the capture.
- Commando Gliders will be able to land anywhere except enemy base sectors.


Now my question is has the issues with this unit been adressed? Lets look at the issues suggested in 2.101

- Reinforement time too little- Fixed
- 'base raping' - Fixed
- Commando nade and smoke combo too deadly- Fixed
- Commando capping whilst in smoke- Fixed
- Commando demo charge has no cooldown- Not fixed
- Commandos rape all but mp44 wielding infantry- Not fixed.

Now whilst the nerfs have been good so far, imo there are still 2 much needed nerfs to bring them into line. Their damage output is still incredibly high, and is still the reason wehr players are racing to tech to 3-4 in order to get armour out. If their damage output was toned down a little, especially firing on the move accuracy then I think they would be fixed.

The demo charge also needs a cooldown. For an ability that can 1 hit ko a bunker for 50 munitions and take out WHOLE squads in one blast its need a cooldown. 1 minute would be fine.

Thoughts?

[p331083]

Demo pack timer is a must nerf.

[Splitmonkey]

They still reinforce as fast as riflemen.

Grenade range still 30.

Damage output exceedingly high.

Smoke still unbalanced.

Demo charge.

[DrunkenBrawler]

They still reinforce as fast as riflemen.

Grenade range still 30.

Damage output exceedingly high.

Smoke still unbalanced.

Demo charge.

Damage output is no worse than MP44, which you can get earlier and cheaper. Demo charge is not that much different from mines, except that you have to manually detonate demo charge, and it costs 50muni, the double of a mine. And lets not talk about the free PE traps.

And they still cost 560mp.

If your ideas were to go through (which they won't, the current nerfs are good enough and I bet Relic agrees) who the hell would pay 560 for something equivalent to a volks squad?

[D'yer Mak'er]

Yeah, i hope you guys are advocating a cost nerf too, because theres no way anyone is building that shit for the outrageous price they cost if what you all propose ever happened.

Jesus, get a grip.

[CommanderHolt]

Damage output is no worse than MP44, which you can get earlier and cheaper. Demo charge is not that much different from mines, except that you have to manually detonate demo charge, and it costs 50muni, the double of a mine. And lets not talk about the free PE traps.

And they still cost 560mp.

If your ideas were to go through (which they won't, the current nerfs are good enough and I bet Relic agrees) who the hell would pay 560 for something equivalent to a volks squad?

That only applies to PE, basically Commandos can annilate any Werh Infantry before they can get MP44s (Unless Blitz Doctrine, but you need Battle Phase or Assault Phase in BETA)
Grens can't stand up to commandos unless FTFL is on or have armor support. Plus they renforce basically at almost the same cost as Tommies still.

[sgb]

Demo charge needs a cooldown, glider should not crush infantry, and there needs to be a greater delay when leaving the glider. You should not be able to drop the Commandos in the middle of an army with no real risk. Other than that, Commandos are fine for what they cost. The larger problem is that there's no reason to take any other doctrine in 1v1. Elite infantry, light tanks, free scouting and artillery? How is the sucky Churchill line and some passive bonuses supposed to compete with that package? Unless RE get some help, expect to see nothing but Commandos mid-game for British.

[CoatedTrout]

- Commandos rape all but mp44 wielding infantry- Not fixed.

That's what they're supposed to do.

You're not supposed to counter some of the best and most expensive infantry in the game with inferior infantry, or blobs.

And about demo charge, as mentioned above, putting a cooldown on it would be equivalent to putting a cooldown on mines.

At the moment, they're fine I reckon.

Edit: The commando artillery on the other hand...

[s73r01d]

Don't try to equal mines with DemoCharge, mines have long build time, require to being step on (can't blow buildings) and Pioneers are not commandos with SmokeBoke god mode.

It should have a cooldown, if not a min at least a half, just to prevent spamz0r. Or great increase in price, double or more.

[armen]

they have been nerfed enough.

they are used completely different than prior to this patch!

they are elite cqb units... they should have the ability to take out guys with k98 @ close range.

the demo charge cool down doesn't make any sense either, they are a unit thats designed to sabotage shit behind enemy lines. so if i see commandos landing behind my lines i automatically assume there will be demo laying about.

There is no need for a cooldown time, since they cant land in your base anymore to take out buildings and such.

[Wilson]

Demo charges cannot be compared to mines, as s73r0id said. Mines never destroy a whole full health squad in one blast, cannot be detonated at the perfect moment with micro, and do take longer to put down.

That said, I don't think a timer on demos is vital to balance commandos, but a real short timer (like twenty or even ten seconds) just to stop demo spam on the few occasions it might happen could be a good idea.

[TheVOID]

Currently, Volks with MP40 have a moving accuracy modifier of 0.2, while commandos have 0.5

I think the simplest nerfbuff would be to change the Volks MP40 moving accuracy to 0.3 and the commando's Sten moving accuracy to 0.4

That would also address the issue of Wehr players vs commandos, since in combination, it will make upgraded Volks more useful as a defense against commandos.

The other thing I would do is increase the reload frequency of Commandos slightly. In addition to all the other changes, that should do the trick without going too far in any direction.

[Roman_93]

Refresh cost should be 40 or 45 like Elite.
Or / and the refresh time should be a bit longer.
Also a small timer on demo charges would be fair.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Have you not been exploited with demo charges yet?

There are numerous replays of 1 commando squad walking into a base, and spending about 30 seconds in the base, using your own buildings as cover and laying 6-7 demo charges. 6-7 demo charges is enough to blow your HQ, and 1 other building (whatever building produces something that can kill commandos). The commandos can pop smoke while they move from building to building, avoiding the base defenses.

Down your HQ, and Down your best building that could beat the Commandos, Game over. If you aren't retreating your forces to kill the commandos immediately, in the next 30 seconds you will lose your other 2 buildings.

Even if you turn some vehicles around as soon as you see the commandos, they will still have at least ~15 seconds... That's enough for 4 demo charges. Bye bye HQ, no more call ins.

As an axis player, which unit do I have that with 30 seconds in your base, I can blow up your HQ and 1 of your anti-infantry Unit Producing buildings? Hell, I can't even do that with a V1 blast and a Hummel Barrage at the same time.

Not only that, Commandos can use those demo charges for anything. This has also happened to me. I'm defending the right vic point on hill 331 with 3 pg Squads (1g43, 2 normal), I have the building to the right upgraded to a reinforce point. Commando squad drops in, crushes one squad with the glider, and grenades another squad, and just outright kills the third as they move towards the reinforce point.

As soon as the commandos landed, I moved an armored car, and a halftrack towards the vic point. They were blown up in the demo charge mine explostion :(

See, watching the replay, after killing my troops, the commandos immediately run to one of the Tree chokepoints (Facing my base), and drops 2 demo charges. Then runs back to the Vic point, and drops another demo charge on the vic point. Then captures the vic, then runs to the building and blows it up with 2 more demo charges.

Sure, That cost 250 munition, and 560 manpower, but in ~50 seconds I went from having a vic point, a reinforce point, with 12 men defending it, to no reinforce point, mined (enough to kill an armored care, and a HT) approach, and boobytrapped vic point.

If you lose sight of a commando squad for more than 10-15 seconds, watch out. That's enough time to put down mines that can destroy anything.

There's no reason why commando demo charges shouldn't have a cooldown. It's too easy to exploit it in base rushing, or in setting up instant-defenses. For those reasons, Relic is looking into it as we speak.

[Vretsu]

I agree, Rangers are currently more expensive to reinforce than Commandos.

It is cheaper to reinforce Commandos than to reinforce k98k-wielding Grenadiers.

[Deionarra]

That's called faction diversity.

- PE & WM; have cheap squads that cost more to reinforce.

- US; have cheap squads that cost less to reinforce but have high upkeep.

- Brits; have expensive squads that are cheap to reinforce. Having to replace lost squads is about twice as costly as it is for the other factions.

Personally I don't really have any problems with commandos except when they drop right on top of me. Most of the time I can just kite them, the same can't be said for Rangers.

[EroticCompany]

"There are numerous replays of 1 commando squad walking into a base, and spending about 30 seconds in the base, using your own buildings as cover and laying 6-7 demo charges."

Wow, 1 squad of commando had time to lay 6-7 demo in the base and players allowed them to do that? Unless your opponent really outplays you, that shit rarely happen

[Sn1tch]

If the Bren's are equal to the effectiveness of the MP44's, then it means they're overpowered.

You have a 6 man squad all wielding MP44's that come pretty early in the game. How exactly is that fine?

Here is what is wrong with Commandos still:

- Demo charges (thread about this)
- Reinforcement cost (as if 35 is enough for how they currently are, if their Bren's were nerfed then 35 is fine)
- Brens (explained above)
- Grenade range (explained below)

Apparently their grenade is the riflemen's power with the range of the grenadier's. That is simply not balanced.

[Ano2]

Wow, 1 squad of commando had time to lay 6-7 demo in the base and players allowed them to do that? Unless your opponent really outplays you, that shit rarely happen

Say you've only got grens on the field and support weapons, anything you send to try and counter them will die very quickly. If your on the otherside of this arguement, send 6 commandos against 2 squads of gren vet2.

[EroticCompany]

"Say you've only got grens on the field and support weapons, anything you send to try and counter them will die very quickly. If your on the otherside of this arguement, send 6 commandos against 2 squads of gren vet2."
If you only have a valina grens, no other units, no artilary, no call in troops and opponent has a squad of commandos in your base. He outplays you for sure. But anyway, I agree it is OP to let commando land in the base

[TheYaxisOfEvil]

In response to Nomad, you've never seen a HT full of shrek squads rape a base? It used to be even worse when zeal would make that last guy standing rapid fire.

There are tons of options vs commandos, and that whole fly into your base thing just wont happen anymore anyway so why nerf the demo charges? They are expensive and do require set up time. If anything lengthen the placement time, but don't require a cooldown.

[DrCloud]

If the Bren's are equal to the effectiveness of the MP44's, then it means they're overpowered.
Am I missing something? I thought commandos used stens and not brens.

:moefixed:

It would be a whole barrel of laughs if they could button vehicles.

[MrSomeguy]

Yeah, he means Stens, Brens are the LMG's you give infantry sections.

[th3pr0ph3t]

Commandos still have some issues.

I played a game in the beta the other day on Semois. I took the center vp and had at least 1 mg 42 in the church at all times. Throughout the game the brit player dropped 4 commando squad and through attrition ended up with his entire army composed of commandos. The fast moving commandos could attack my cut off points at will and if faced with a superior force, ninja vanish or drop fake smoke or real artillery.

Whats the point of defensive depth or long range weapons, if the commandos can easily bypass without taking any damage and be in prime range for their sten's?

To top it off. I eventually got an 88 up to counter the fireflys that were lighting up my pumas, and what happens? Glider comes in right next to it. I say to myself, "No big deal, I have some Vet 3 MP40 volks in a bunker next to the flak."

Wrong.

The commados perforate the flak crew taking 0 casualties and man the gun and blast the bunker...gg.

I was not a happy field marshal.

[Sn1tch]

Yes I meant Stens, even though I know what both guns look like. I always get mixed up when rushing a post.

[CommanderHolt]

I think there should be a No-Drop Zone around AA Emplaments (AKA Flak 88 and Flak Verling). They could of probably shoot down a Glider or a C-47 Carrying Paras before they reach near them.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Wow, 1 squad of commando had time to lay 6-7 demo in the base and players allowed them to do that? Unless your opponent really outplays you, that shit rarely happen


You do realize that it only takes 4 seconds to lay down a demo charge right, and there's no cooldown? You do realize that they can use your own buildings as LOS cover from your base defenses? They can just pop smoke through your Defenses Firing lane to get into your base, or move around your base? Oops, invisible, can't shoot em. Now they are behind your buildings again.

So commandos show up at your base, time to do something about it.

How long is the build time for a squad of grenadiers? (30 seconds)

How about an armored car? (45 seconds)

30 seconds is enough time to blow up any 2 wehr buildings, 1 of them being the HQ.

Even if you _immediately_ retreat when you see the commandos, they will have time (12 seconds) to put down 3 demo charges. That's enough to blowup any single wehr non-hq building, or significantly hurt your HQ. BTW, as it only takes 2 demo charges to blow up a non hq wehr building, It's real nice of them to put that third demo charge at your HQ's retreat point.

What's the defense then? I have to keep an armored car in my base at all times, because commandos could show up at any moment and insta-kill at least one of my buildings?

Satchel Charges have a cooldown. Anti-building Grenades have a cooldown. Hell, the demo charge expert sappers have a cooldown when using demo charges, why not commandos?

[th3pr0ph3t]

I really like the idea of a no drop zone around AA weapons. Barring that, how about the AA weapons actually do what they're supposed to do...shoot down things that fly.

Anyone every paradrop anything with a ostwind around? No? Because if you do, your parachutes will be holding up dead men. How come a glider gets a pass, because its supposed to crash?

Anyway, here's a replay against a brit player that maximized his glider drops...always behind front lines and whatnot...

All I have to say is FTFL saved me multiple times.

[Moon Pine]

'base raping' - Fixed
Still base raping by land near Wehmacht base then sneak in under smoke - just a little work.
IMO, commando shouldn't build trench anymore, so I can drive them out of my base with a halftrack or a puma. Once the commando get in my base, I mush with draw my vehicles before he has the time to finish his trench. That not a easy task even in Semois let along in some bigger map or 2v2.

[natrapsmai]

Commandos get fixed when their invisible smoke gets turned into real smoke and when their demos are put on a timer.

[CommanderHolt]

Still, Commandos can pretty much anniliate any Werh Infantry, unless they are Stormtroopers w/Mp44s or KCH. It can come in 3 CP, which barely give you time to deploy a Puma to counter it. (Werh HT w/ MG usually doesn't do too much apperiable damage.) Plus MG 42 can be dropped from behind by commandos. Plus isn't it counter productive to avoid battling, because then they will just cap your points?

[Black_Duck_1]

Commandos have been nerfed enough. The demo charge timer issue seems to be a bug/fug. My guess is that it will be fixed soon.
MP44 rapes Allies infantry more than commandos does. What is even worse is that Assault Grenadiers are significantly cheaper than commandos and have the same effect on Allies infantry.

[Vintage]

Commandos have been nerfed enough.

They really haven't received any nerfs. Just pretend nerfs that don't accomplish anything. The unit itself still largely has not changed.

[Rascal1974]

LOL theres just no pleasing some people, commnandos took a big hit in respect to the recent nerfs, and some are still not happy, and it seems they wont rest until the Brit faction is made complety useless.

Plenty of questionable OP areas with both wher and PE still, but not many complaints, WHY? firstly the split of people playing is weighted heavily towards axis, Secondly Wehr just seem to winge more than rest instead of just getting on with it :rolleyes:

[scoiatollo]

- Commando Infantry reinforce cost increased from 25 to 35

- British Commando Concealing Smoke and Commando Grenades share timers - abilities cannot be used at the same time.
- British Commando Glider, with the exception of the Glider HQ, will not allow reinforcements or be able to build units outside friendly territory.
- British Commandos cannot capture when using Concealing Smoke. Using smoke while capturing will stop the capture.

- Commando Gliders will be able to land anywhere except enemy base sectors.

Yeah Vintage I get your point no nerfs after all...

[Vintage]

- Commando Infantry reinforce cost increased from 25 to 35

This is the only significant nerf, which isn't even significant. Everything else doesn't really matter. They still smash Wehrmacht infantry with ease. Oh wow they can't land in my base!!! I am safe if I am in my base. It is my safe zone where Commandos can't hurt me!!


Plenty of questionable OP areas with both wher and PE still, but not many complaints, WHY? firstly the split of people playing is weighted heavily towards axis, Secondly Wehr just seem to winge more than rest instead of just getting on with it

Well sorry but the split is not heavily towards Axis. Almost every poster I see that can be condemned as an "Axis Only" player cares about balance and will post in regards to buffing Allies in some categories and nerfing Axis in others. Many of the posters who can be seen as "Allied Only" such as Scoiatollo have displayed through their many posts that they really don't care for balance, they just post for their agenda to hopefully get their favorite faction buffed so they can win easier.

[scoiatollo]

Not being able to reinforce on enemy territory is huge, smoke and nade sharing a timer is nothing you call a buff either.

If you missed the point of commandos, they are supposed to kill infantry! That would be like Tiger doing no damage against tanks. And no they won't come early unless you send your troops T1 into suicide missions. We are talking here about a 560mp AI only unit and don't forget that Brits are already the most mp intensive army existing in CoH.


Many of the posters who can be seen as "Allied Only" such as Scoiatollo have displayed through their many posts that they really don't care for balance, they just post for their agenda to hopefully get their favorite faction buffed so they can win easier.

Bullshit! Quote some statement I made regarding that where I didn't excuse myself in case I have been wrong or stop flaming me. In fact I was for some wehrmacht Buffs or other balance solutions that would have been not even half as drastical.

[BikerGnome]

MP44 Inf rip up comandoes, several vet grens will beat them up enough to force a retreat, pumas work, ostwinds work, anything with armour basically. There are lots of commando counters, just most people want to fight them with vanilla PG's and then cry foul. Mortars and grenades also work if they drop smoke, as does attack ground. They are an elite unit but at 560mp they should be

[Goret]

Their head is still sticking out of the ground! Keep hammering them down!

Seriously people i think they are fine now. Their main issues are fixed.

[Dryden]

dont nebels help vs demo-ninjaing commandoes? I thought they cant demoing while supressed.

[yupi]

OMG.

I'm plaing a bit for all factions. I'm a very bad Wehr player but still even in 2.201 I don't have any problems with comandos considering their cost. Grens with HMG rape them. Any armor rape them. A bit of blobbing rape them.

So where is the problem?

If your low skill put you in trouble it's your fault.

And by the way I said that I'm not a good Wehr player but still having the same lvl with all factions in 2.201 for me Brits are the hardest to play for, not against. And looking at nerfs that comandos recieved they are by no means are OPed now. I don't think I will use them in new patch much because of nerfs.

[Wilson]

I think they can, and if they're in your base you don't really want to fire nebels into it.

[Dryden]

nebels arent like V1. Aim them to open area where you think commandoes are and your buildings will be fine. Or they wont be fine after 2-3 minutes of demoing :) You choose.

[PeterPeterson1]

That's called faction diversity.

- PE & WM; have cheap squads that cost more to reinforce.

- US; have cheap squads that cost less to reinforce but have high upkeep.

- Brits; have expensive squads that are cheap to reinforce. Having to replace lost squads is about twice as costly as it is for the other factions.

Personally I don't really have any problems with commandos except when they drop right on top of me. Most of the time I can just kite them, the same can't be said for Rangers.

PE has cheap squads? hmm do you mean 255 or 360 for a 3 men squad? Which means 85 MP/120MP each men. Commandos have 85 for each men too!

Deionarra, i don't know what you want. PE have expensive squads that are expensive to reinforce.Having to replace lost squads is about as costly as it is for the british faction.

[scoiatollo]

A 360mp squad that comes with mp44 which are normally T4 as Wehrmacht you forget to add. Don't forget that PE have the luxury of a cheap capper whereas Brits cheapest capping unit would be the Lt with 280/10 (or if you want to spend no fuel 450/35 for a recon squad). What's also nice is that all there squads are able to repair stuff whereas Brits have to wait till T2 to get a 320mp repairing unit. It's not alone the mp difference that should be taken into account, rather their overall performance.

[PeterPeterson1]

I did not forgett to add this. Deionarra only shows the mp difference and i want to show that he is wrong with his statement. Nothing more.

I know the mp44 is really good and has a devastating effect on british inf! But that is needed as a counter to the Lieutenant+inf blob. PE has no really good weapon team. And a fast stuart is a pain in the ass to all stg44 guys.

But i don't want to quarrel with you. this thread is about commandos and stg44 squads are the only inf counter. And all i want to say is that building cost and reinforce cost of assault squads is equal or more expensive then commandos.

[scoiatollo]

Inf HT and Mortar HT >>>> any weapon team in the game ;)

And no, StG44 is not the only inf counter. LMG42 ie on (preferable) vet2 Grens rape commandos, 2 overlapping mg42 are better than commandos since they can't throw nades anymore while being camoed, Flamer (although they are very fragile unless they are vet3) counter commandos, G43 slow plus inc nade counter commandos. These are all infantry based counters, some of them even T1.

Tbh with most of them you will need a certain level of micro to success but it's simply not true that there are no inf counter for commandos.

[Goret]

There are tons of counters and if you don't have one ready when they first drop, the officer can force retreat em. Has saved my nebels, base, mg and non vetted grens more than once.

I find it harder to deal with ranger as you can't effectivly use light armor (puma/flamen) on them when they arrive.

[PeterPeterson1]

Yeah like the officer, the lmg42, vet2 grens and flamers PE has!

I only talk about PE! And in my games i build Logistik Kompanie first (4 men squad and ATnades) and then Panzer-Jager Kommand (marder and stg44). Mostly i have no 60 fuel for the first Mortar and no 40 fuel for the Infhalftrack

[scoiatollo]

Well that's your decision than. I don't blame tanks being op just because I skipped the 17lb or Piats in order to get a fast Cromwell.

As US you also have to decide if you want to risk a WSC start or delay your teching for racks and WSC. So where's your point again?

In vCoH existed something called tactics that most seem to have lost after OF got released...

[Wilson]

nebels arent like V1. Aim them to open area where you think commandoes are and your buildings will be fine. Or they wont be fine after 2-3 minutes of demoing You choose.

Only if the nebels are close enough to be accurate, and the commandos aren't next to your buildings (which they will be if they're planting demos). I reckon most of the nebel rounds would hit your buildings or miss the commandos, so they aren't an ideal counter. That said, some damage to your base is probably the lesser of two evils if they kill or seriously disable the commandos. I just don't think they would thanks to commando smoke fixing any suppression and the fact nebels aren't deadly enough to kill the whole squad (as they shouldn't be).

[scoiatollo]

Interesting, a new topic has opened stating that a unit that received several nerfs is still OP, so while some (not even all!) Axis are whining about how unfair Commandos are a lot of other users name counters what to do against them and suddenly (as being one of them) people are supposed to ignore me? - Right... And that from the guy that got suspended for flaming and trolling iirc...

How about providing a replay where commandos killed a Wehrmacht player? I'd really like to see one and since all Brits are commando abusers (as said multiple times already) it can't be that hard to post one.

Btw.: If they would really swap the HQ with the command glider you could complain about how OP the command tree is. Commando piats, mobile mortar and mobile mg, so yeah I totally get the picture where this would balance the commando tree... (besides that a lategame call-in commando squad for 560 would suck since there are already numerous tanks on the field)

[Dryden]

Btw.: If they would really swap the HQ with the command glider you could complain about how OP the command tree is. Commando piats, mobile mortar and mobile mg, so yeah I totally get the picture where this would balance the commando tree... (besides that a lategame call-in commando squad for 560 would suck since there are already numerous tanks on the field)Late game? Suck? Only if enemy somehow wont have:
vettet Storms+MP44
vetted Grens+LMG
vetted blobbed PGs+MP44
No, I think they will not suck. They will be in parity. And with their superior abilities like smoke, cheap long-range grenades, trenches, triangulation, demos - commandoes will still have enough advantages that GOOD PLAYER could use.

Yeah like the officer, the lmg42, vet2 grens and flamers PE has!

I only talk about PE! And in my games i build Logistik Kompanie first (4 men squad and ATnades) and then Panzer-Jager Kommand (marder and stg44). Mostly i have no 60 fuel for the first Mortar and no 40 fuel for the Infhalftrackand i thought they costed 40 fuel for M-HT and 20fuel for I-HT?

[Goret]

commando's are still op against the werhmacht and still up against the pe. if they really want to fix commando tree they need to swap hq and commando glider

absolutely not!
The last thing you want as wehrmacht is having brits getting mobile mortar, mobile vickers and commando piat support for their tommie squads early/mid game!

commandos are not sappers and piat wielding commandos have smoke and have demo charges and this for cheaper mp cost! if HQ glider come out early you can forget about puma and stugs.

People that suggest giving brits theese tools at 2 or 3 cp have no clue what they are talking about. I guess everyone has lost an MG42 to brits before, you know how painfull that is when brit get their hands on the stuff they are by design not meant to have early game!

EDIT:
This will never happen anyway... supply drop won't be swaped with paras, offmap combat group won't be swaped with rangers and HQ glider won't be swaped with commando glider. and still they all follow the same line! elite unit forst support later.

[scoiatollo]

besides that a lategame call-in commando squad for 560 would suck since there are already numerous tanks on the field

I highlighted the essential parts of my statement.
7CP commandos (or rather 11CP since you will probably need artillery first) is too late, shifting the Tet to that stage would make no sense either since they would be too fragile to deal with late game armies.

[Dryden]

Goret, I suggested b4 not just swap HQ and commi-glider but rather rework trees like that:
LHS: Triang. -> tetrarch -> Arty
RHS: radio intercept -> HQ -> Commandoes

[PeterPeterson1]

and i thought they costed 40 fuel for M-HT and 20fuel for I-HT?

I wrote i didn't build the second building. Thats the 20 fuel!

[Ano2]

Axis are whining about how unfair Commandos are

So by that statement it is pretty clear your a pro-ally player. I would never call myself an axis or ally player, I play US and Wehr, the latter more so since I think the US vs PE balance is even more fucked up than the Wehr vs Brit balance. Therefore it is best to take all your posts with a pinch of salt since you clearly are ally bias.


How about providing a replay where commandos killed a Wehrmacht player?

Next time it happens I will be sure to upload it.

As for the mp44, I agree it is op as well, but that is an even greater reason to nerf commando's dmg output and accuracy on the move. If you need commandos to counter fast PE mp44s, then it means balance is not achieved, and best thing to do is to nerf commando dmg to highlight this (Although ideally we want both dmg outputs nerfed).

[scoiatollo]

a 3CP Tet? Cold be interesting ;) I skip Commandos and go straight for upgunned Tetarchs (probably overrepaired, kill one of the bunkers and let my Tommies march in to handle the nearly non existing AT while my Tets would pwn any vehicle that would be on the field at that stage.

Yep, that would solve the problems with commandos since everyone would spam Tets like crazy....

edit: @Peterson: Again, it's your choice what you build so maybe you should change your BO.

@Ano: Nah, I am just sick of axis complaining about every ability/unit Brits have. And no Commandos are not needed to take care of early mp44 (in fact they would pwn commandos). They need them as a fast raid unit that provides good AI while you can focus on getting your AT on the field.

[s73r01d]

To feed CP hunger of Wehrmatch ? Tetrarch is nice, but I dont think tetrarch spam is likely. They die to easy from shrecks, and I will have shrecks lot easely than LMG42.

Anyway, commandos are fine, just require their Democharge with timer or damage lowerd or price raised or all of these.

[Ano2]

Nah, I am just sick of axis complaining about every ability/unit Brits have.

Thanks for backing up my statement :)


They need them as a fast raid unit that provides good AI while you can focus on getting your AT on the field.


That would be fine but there AI is incredible, not just good.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

If they throw a cooldown on Demo charges, and slightly increase the reinforce cost (so they don't replace tommies). Commandos are fine.

Those are the two main concerns. That once you get commandos, you don't need to build tommies anymore, and that 1 commando squad in an enemy base can pretty much end the game.

[Jaigen]

[already numerous tanks on the field

then KCH need to come in werhmacht tier 3 by your own reasoning

[scoiatollo]

If you decrease the costs to 400-450 you could nerf their AI abilities, but than again they would be way too cheap and with their speed they would outclass Tommies easily.

Seriously, Commandos are fine right now. I don't recall a single game I've won cause of Commandos lately, it's rather the opposite, I lost a game cause I've gone RSE and not commandos... There are enough downsides if you chose Commandos (ie early AT lack cause you don't have Churchills). I'm not arguing about their AI capabillities which are really good, but saying their are no counters at the stage commandos hit the field is wrong.

@Nomad: They don't replace Tommies cause you will need the 60mp difference and the button up for your AT.

@Jaigen: If I'm not mistaken KCH have at least fausts at Vet2 which get buffed in the Beta plus they are cheaper than commandos. So I don't see any reason why there should be another AI unit with AT capabilities T3.

[Hartmann]

Just reduce the massive damage they do. Don't see why that should be a problem, FG42 got a big nerf for that reason so why not commandos.

I also think that the glider should be more vulnerable, To prevent commandos from dropping right into the middle of a firefight as an 'I win button'. And is it just me or do they still come out even if the glider is destroyed at landing?

[ChocoboKnight88]

I eventually got an 88 up to counter the fireflys that were lighting up my pumas, and what happens? Glider comes in right next to it. I say to myself, "No big deal, I have some Vet 3 MP40 volks in a bunker next to the flak."

Wrong.

The commados perforate the flak crew taking 0 casualties and man the gun and blast the bunker...gg.
Ummm... No offense, but I think that was a terrible decision on your part that made that happen. MP40 Volks are just terrible when garrisoned, since they are short ranged weapons. Not only that, only one Volksgrenadier will be firing from each side of the bunker. It's no surprise that Commandos survived. You would have been much better off using an MG42.

[Ano2]

I don't recall a single game I've won cause of Commandos lately

Yeah but have you tryed serious commando spam in conjunction with stuarts/croms/fireflys?

If someone actually comes on the beta I will try and test out commandos...

[bottenbreker]

i still think the reinforcement cost + speed is not high enough. for the rest they're pretty OK imho.

[yupi]

Can I ask those who think that comandos are OPed to show a replay where THEY are winning a game for brits with using commandos overpowerness.

I mean if a more player wins against you it may be that he is more skillful. If you always lose playing against brits and always win playing for them than you have ground for complaints.

As I said in my own situation even in 2.201 I can't use commandos effectively for their cost but I can much more easily counter them effectively.

[Jaigen]

@Jaigen: If I'm not mistaken KCH have at least fausts at Vet2 which get buffed in the Beta plus they are cheaper than commandos. So I don't see any reason why there should be another AI unit with AT capabilities T3.

see and that's why nobody is listening to your arguments. commando's cost more? well duh they have 6 men opposed to 3. Btw KCH dont have smoke long range pineapple or demo charge for that bullshit.

and faust can only reliably kill a stuart for other tanks you definitely are going to need a shrek

[PeterPeterson1]

I didn't think there are any units which can win a game for you. You need more then one type to finish you oppenent off.

[Ano2]

Can I ask those who think that comandos are OPed to show a replay where THEY are winning a game for brits with using commandos overpowerness.


Sure can. This is a 2.201 replay (no one on beta) but since demos and their killing power hasn't been changed at all they still functioned almost exactly the same.

Ok I have the replay but its giving me the following error:

Fatal error: Cannot instantiate non-existent class: crecfile in /home/rn/public_html/forums/includes/functions_newpost.php on line 407

any ideas?

[Unicous]

jaigen, kch have better armor class and better overall accuracy. they do 100% dmg vs soldier armour and have 100% accuracy against them. they cost 390 mp (and pls don't come with the cheap "no no they cost 5000 fuel and 5 million mp because you have to get the buildings" bla bla) comparing to 560 or 510.

commandos have 85% acc and 75% dmg vs. heroic. heroic has another crit table, so they're not gonna die so soon.


kch might not have ONE grenade but at least three for the cost of 50 mun and AT ability.

[PeterPeterson1]

Unicous, they are 3 guys. If you could snipe one you kill 1/3 of the team! If you could kill 1 commando you have 5/6 left. thats a difference!

the damageoutput of one weapon is nearly the same if you compare Damage, burst duration and reload time. But you have to multiply with 3 or with 6. Thats the difference!

[Hartmann]

Let alone that they are T4 units.

[Black_Duck_1]

Unicous, they are 3 guys. If you could snipe one you kill 1/3 of the team!

That is right except that each member of the kch squad is like a lt/captain. They do not die to a single sniper shot. Each one of them needs two shots.... which obseletes your argument.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Like I said.. Slight reinforce cost increase (so they don't replace tommies), and demo charge cool down, and let's try that out.

(Demo charge cooldown has been more than justified in many threads already;

Slight reinforce cost increase (3-4mp?) so that it is cheaper to reinforce tommies than commandos, right now, the only drawbacks to always choosing commandos are the slight upfront additional cost, and no button up. 60MP additional cost is more than a worthwhile trade for a unit that has no speed limitation, amazing deploy options, amazing survivability, and abilities to trap/mine/blowup things. You don't need button up as the British. It's a nice to have, but not necessary)


Think about it.. You have to build 4 commando squads before you see the benefit of choosing to build tommies vs commandos.

[Splitmonkey]

Snipers take off 1/4th of a full health kch squad any addaional sniper shots will kill 1 man each.

So 4 shots.

[DrunkenBrawler]

Like I said.. Slight reinforce cost increase (so they don't replace tommies)

They already had their reinforce cost increased in the beta. Forgot that? What you wanted is already in the patch.

[nichtganz]

The snipers still have to be balanced. Perhaps the wehr sniper should get an accuracy bonus, and a long stealth detection bonus, this means you will see allied snipers who try to go commando getting their heads shot off. Realistically the german snipers were more like hunters and focused on killing allied snipers, where allied snipers were more or less scouts/ observers.

[Vintage]

They already had their reinforce cost increased in the beta. Forgot that? What you wanted is already in the patch.

Their reinforcement cost barely went up. They still reinforce too cheaply.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Before, it was REALLY broken. You could reinforce commandos cheaper than reinforcing tommies.


In the latest beta it's only slightly off. Commandos currently reinforce at the same cost as tommies (35)

It should be slightly more... There should be more of a reason to choose tommies than: Button up, and costwise getting 5 squads of tommies for the price of 4 squads of commandos.

An increase of 2-4 manpower would help do that.

[Jaigen]

They already had their reinforce cost increased in the beta. Forgot that? What you wanted is already in the patch.

with their power they really should cost the same as pg and rangers

as for KCH their hero armor is slighly worse then elite armor and they will take huge damage from other weapons.

the only saving grace is the fact that KCH need a crit to be killed. Since a commando spewing a lot of bullets theb change a KCH receives a critical is high

[Hirmetrium]

Sure can. This is a 2.201 replay (no one on beta) but since demos and their killing power hasn't been changed at all they still functioned almost exactly the same.

Ok I have the replay but its giving me the following error:

Fatal error: Cannot instantiate non-existent class: crecfile in /home/rn/public_html/forums/includes/functions_newpost.php on line 407

any ideas? How does a non beta replay even HELP to argue the CURRENT BETA CHANGES?

This thread is more and more ridiculous.

Commandos are an ANTI INFANTRY UNIT. Of course they are going to beat infantry. They cost a lot of manpower. Of course they are going to beat cheaper infantry units.

The current changes mean that commandos have significantly fewer tricks.

Before the beta, commandos went like this:
1. Drop into enemy territory, kill nearby men who retreat swiftly
2. Capture the nearest point. When a counterattack comes, smoke, finish capture, plant demo, grenade.
3. This causes the enemy to suffer heavy losses, and the commandos continue to fight while being reinforced.
In the beta:
1. Commandos are dropped they chase an enemy away again, start to cap.
2. The defense force arrives. If the commandos smoke/grenade, they stop capping. If they dont cap, they can't reinforce. So, in this new situation, they probably have enough time to pop smoke, throw a grenade out, then fight for a few seconds against overwhelming enemy forces before retreating due to heavy losses and paying a larger cost to reinforce back at the base.

Those two situations are entirely different. In one, you lose a point (cuts off a side in ango, for example) and have to fight a very, very formidable force, who can escape very easily, reinforce cheaply or just pop smoke and sneak off. The other, you can cripple a costly offensive attack.

Theres no comparison between the two. face it, commandos are significantly less overpowered, and unless your sitting idle, no commando force will have enough time to plant demos in your base, and they certainly can't do it under smoke any more. They can perhaps get one charge up, enough to take down a defense structure, before being slaughtered by your men etheir being reinforced in the base or when you retreat them back to defend.

[Jeopardia_Ferdy]

I miss fire up for commandos....

[Nomad_Wanderer]

In the beta:
1. Commandos are dropped they chase an enemy away again, Lay down demo charge as mine (4sec) on enemy approach vector. Lay down demo charge again little bit further closer to point(4sec), start to cap.
2. The defense force arrives. Hit first demo charge to do 300 dmg in decent radius. If survivors, hit the second demo charge. If still survivors, fight them off. Though most things will be killed by 600 dmg. If not killed, be 5% from dead.


That's how it is now. The demo charge timer will help greatly. But commandos reinforcing at the same cost of tommies is still an issue. Once I invest in commandos, why build tommies? Button up?Every 4 squads I get 1 free if I choose tommies?

[Black_Duck_1]

Snipers take off 1/4th of a full health kch squad any addaional sniper shots will kill 1 man each.

So 4 shots.

Squad members' health is calculated individually. A single sniper shot will take from the health of one member, not the whole squad.

[scoiatollo]

@Jaigen: I think in my absence were enough people willing to show you who actually is wrong about the KCH/Commando comparisson.

Too add a little bit more: KCH have 90health, and receive 5% less damage vet2 (what you should already have), Commandos have 65. MP44 deals 100% damage against infantry armor, stens deal 75% against heroic armor, MP44 has no basic accuracy modifier against commandos, stens only have 85% to hit. KCH may have half of the squadsize but with their bonus health and their modifiers they are at least equal to commandos, imo even better!
And that the Faust is useless is not true, in many situations it deals more damage than a Schreck...

For the rest I suggest everyone to read Hirmetriums post, cause he hit the nail!

[ChocoboKnight88]

Hit first demo charge to do 300 dmg in decent radius.
Let me correct you here. The Commando Demo Charge only deals 200 damage, like a 105mm Howitzer shell.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Your right.

Still 400 dmg is enough to kill most things :)

[Black_Duck_1]

Your right.

Still 400 dmg is enough to kill most things :)

commandos demo is 200 damage.

[scoiatollo]

I think he refers to laying two of them.

I really don't see what shoud be wrong with Demos despite that they don't have a cooldown, but as I said 20sec would be enough to prevent them destroying a base in no time.

[Znuff]

20 sec cooldown would fix the worst problem, it wouldnt hurt with 1 minute either thou. More then that would be excessive.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

It's that they are so useful... Remember give me some commandos, 20 seconds on a vp with only 1 squad defending, and I'll give you a boobytrapped capped vp, with a mined approach.

A 1 minute cooldown would mean the commandos would have to choose between putting the mine down, or boobytrapping the point.

Even a 20-30 second cooldown would help though.. It's probably best to start with 25 seconds ( comprimise ;) )

If it's still a problem after setting it to 25 seconds, just increase it more in another patch down the road.

[scoiatollo]

Or decrease it if it's too much ;p

[Ano2]

How does a non beta replay even HELP to argue the CURRENT BETA CHANGES?



This is a 2.201 replay (no one on beta) but since demos and their killing power hasn't been changed at all they still functioned almost exactly the same.

As I said in the post you are referring to, demos and killing power have not been changed so it makes little difference in testing it.


This thread is more and more ridiculous.

We're having a good informed discussion, please refrain from posting here again.


Before the beta, commandos went like this:
1. Drop into enemy territory, kill nearby men who retreat swiftly
2. Capture the nearest point. When a counterattack comes, smoke, finish capture, plant demo, grenade.
3. This causes the enemy to suffer heavy losses, and the commandos continue to fight while being reinforced.
In the beta:
1. Commandos are dropped they chase an enemy away again, start to cap.
2. The defense force arrives. If the commandos smoke/grenade, they stop capping. If they dont cap, they can't reinforce. So, in this new situation, they probably have enough time to pop smoke, throw a grenade out, then fight for a few seconds against overwhelming enemy forces before retreating due to heavy losses and paying a larger cost to reinforce back at the base.


that was the most situational load of bollocks i've heard in a while. Now commandos can't cap and smoke. Thats good. But is that enough? IMO no, they still kill infantry too quickly and still can spam demo charges.

EDIT:


They can perhaps get one charge up, enough to take down a defense structure, before being slaughtered by your men etheir being reinforced in the base or when you retreat them back to defend.


No player would retreat their forces back since the commandos could plant a demo at the HQ, blowing it when they get back.

YES IT WORKS!

Okay attached is a 2.201 demonstrating demo charge opness. Enjoy.

[Heroin]

Well actually ive just one single problems with commandos until now. Why the hell do they have these infantry raping weapons from start on and for absolutly free?

Sure theyre an expensive unit but the fact that they have plenty of abilities and a glider with which they can be deployed everywhere make the price more than fair and on top of that theyre even now pretty fast and cheap to reenforce.

So my suggestion would be to give them other weapons at the beginning and give them an weapon upgrade which cost munition like rangers,pe grenadiers, blitz stormtroopers and normal grenadiers and nearly every fucking other unit in the game have.

THATS A SIMPLE SOLUTION!

[Vintage]

Too add a little bit more: KCH have 90health, and receive 5% less damage vet2 (what you should already have), Commandos have 65. MP44 deals 100% damage against infantry armor, stens deal 75% against heroic armor, MP44 has no basic accuracy modifier against commandos, stens only have 85% to hit. KCH may have half of the squadsize but with their bonus health and their modifiers they are at least equal to commandos, imo even better!
And that the Faust is useless is not true, in many situations it deals more damage than a Schreck...

So to beat 3 CPs requires all the resources to get Tier 4 + KCH + Vet 2. Then you have to constantly waste 35 mu on medkits to heal your KCH or their health advantage is nullified after the first fight. Then you have to spend a minute reinforcing them since it takes forever to reinforce them from one man. If you retreat them at two men which is everytime you lose one single soldier, you spend more time running back and forth and reinforcing. If you retreat them at one man there is a good chance of losing the squad.

[AntiCommie]

commandos need SMGs from the start. They deploy anywhere and are designed as shock troops.

What they need to lose is their boobytrap ability. There is no reason a 3 CP shock infantry unit should be able to do a 2 CP ability better then SE players can. Most good players can avoid all or most of a SE BT, but against brits its almost impossible, since there is no warning and no detecting it till too late.

To fix demo, give Commandos the same demo as Sappers/US gets, or give them Airborne satchels. This way, they arent turned into mines, and can still be used on buildings/Defenses.

[Heroin]

Well these shock troop issue isnt new but whats airborn then exactly? Anyway no comment to the boobytrap ability its nasty and far to cheap or undetectable to be fair.

But the fact that they will have to buy a weapon upgrade wont set an end to your shock troop theory. They could give them an good working anti inf weapon as starter weapon as well but theres no sense to a create a team/unit of super close combat infantry slaughterer from start on.

[Splitmonkey]

commandos need SMGs from the start. They deploy anywhere and are designed as shock troops.
commandos are behind the line inf like airborne they really shouldent start with 6 stgs.

3 smgs for 75 munitions=no more commando i win buttons.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

To fix demo, give Commandos the same demo as Sappers/US gets, or give them Airborne satchels. This way, they arent turned into mines, and can still be used on buildings/Defenses.

Either of these are fine, but mainly because they all have cooldowns....

[AntiCommie]

Airborne are about the same. They have good accuracy while moving, Fire Up, and nades that let them handle most infantry. Their bonuses are based on movement modifiers, health, and specials.

Commandos are weaker then AB, but have more raw firepower. Without their SMGs they would lose that.

Nomad: Actually, even if the commandos didnt have a cool down, the satchels would have a 5 second detonation time, and would be avoidable by infantry. Against buildings it still takes 2-3 to kill, and only against bunkers would I see a problem. For Sapper demo, you cant place it anywhere, so its really only good for base rape.

[DrunkenBrawler]

commandos are behind the line inf like airborne they really shouldent start with 6 stgs.

3 smgs for 75 munitions=no more commando i win buttons.

Sure, if you remove MP44.

[Chronos]

airborne are very weak against infantry, by far not comparable to commandos.

[scoiatollo]

@Vintage I didn't bring KCH up it was Jaigen. All I'm saying is that KCH are better than Commandos (what he doubted). I'm not saying KCH are the answer to commandos but as I said before there are already counters on the field from T1 on, plus everything that has a armor will beat commandos.

@Splitmonkey, Then you'd have to lower the costs and would even have a bigger problem since they would be more spamable and munition is not that much of a problem for Brits as you might know.

[Hirmetrium]

that was the most situational load of bollocks i've heard in a while. Now commandos can't cap and smoke. Thats good. But is that enough? IMO no, they still kill infantry too quickly and still can spam demo charges. ALL OF WHICH COST MONEY. For christs sake.

You think demo charges are FREE? thats 50 munitions a pop. If hes got enough munitions to spam demos all over the map, THEN YOU HAVE ALREADY LOST.

560 is a massive investment in infantry. If you kill a commando squad ASAP its a massive investment lost, one that won't return for a while. thats almost 2/3 of a tiger tank or pershing. You'd expect it to change games, now wouldn't you?

Not to mention the vunerablity of the glider. theres a good second or two to smash the glider before commandos even get out.

Second, WHY ARE YOU POSTING A NON BETA REPLAY? we have been through this, we are discussing commandos POST BETA CHANGES.


No player would retreat their forces back since the commandos could plant a demo at the HQ, blowing it when they get back. Your troops dont run close enough to your HQ for it to do that much damage, if any. plus your meant to be microing them when they arrive anyway.

Please up your arguement from "omfg commandos OP" to something a little more convincing. Demo charges are incredably situational (as you said about my arguement) and unless your running around like a moron not controlling your men they wont do much damage.

I am an axis player before you start sprouting your "omfg allied bias" arguement. Commandos have already been significantly nerfed in the beta, to the point where you now have to make a choice between them and another tree. Any more nerfs and the best unit of the tree will not be worth using anymore.

[Sturmer]

so fucking tired of this commando shit
i was winning by far the he presses "commando", bam all my units die in seconds!

SO FUCKING BULLSHIT IMBA

yes u have probably worked out that im angry

so stupid they can land in the fog, like in your base boom all infantry dead!

BS BS BS

[Ano2]

ALL OF WHICH COST MONEY. For christs sake.

You think demo charges are FREE? thats 50 munitions a pop. If hes got enough munitions to spam demos all over the map, THEN YOU HAVE ALREADY LOST.

560 is a massive investment in infantry. If you kill a commando squad ASAP its a massive investment lost, one that won't return for a while. thats almost 2/3 of a tiger tank or pershing. You'd expect it to change games, now wouldn't you?

Not to mention the vunerablity of the glider. theres a good second or two to smash the glider before commandos even get out.

Second, WHY ARE YOU POSTING A NON BETA REPLAY? we have been through this, we are discussing commandos POST BETA CHANGES.


Caps only make you look like more of a retard. Demo charges are 50 munitions each thanks for pointing that out. So to lay 6, enough for 3 builings destroyed thats 300 munitions. Named one piece of artillery that can do that much damage to buildings for that price.

560 mp is only 90mp more than a tommy squads so comparitively its not a massive investment, especially for what you get. Glider vulnerability? Destroyed in 2 seconds? Your really digging for reasons aren't you.

Secondly I posted a non-beta replay for the reason I have now given you twice. But because your special i'll say it again. Demo charges and the killing power of commandos has not been affected, therefore it doesn't matter if you post beta replay or 2.201 since they haven't changed with regards to those issues. Understand?



Your troops dont run close enough to your HQ for it to do that much damage, if any. plus your meant to be microing them when they arrive anyway.

Please up your arguement from "omfg commandos OP" to something a little more convincing. Demo charges are incredably situational (as you said about my arguement) and unless your running around like a moron not controlling your men they wont do much damage.

I am an axis player before you start sprouting your "omfg allied bias" arguement. Commandos have already been significantly nerfed in the beta, to the point where you now have to make a choice between them and another tree. Any more nerfs and the best unit of the tree will not be worth using anymore.

[quote]Your troops dont run close enough to your HQ for it to do that much damage, if any. plus your meant to be microing them when they arrive anyway.

Please up your arguement from "omfg commandos OP" to something a little more convincing. Demo charges are incredably situational (as you said about my arguement) and unless your running around like a moron not controlling your men they wont do much damage.

I am an axis player before you start sprouting your "omfg allied bias" arguement. Commandos have already been significantly nerfed in the beta, to the point where you now have to make a choice between them and another tree. Any more nerfs and the best unit of the tree will not be worth using anymore.


Well the demo charge is placed a few meters away from the hq, and if you think micro beats instant detentation... yeah right. Please up my argument? I have posted why I think they are op, posted a replay whilst all you've done is post stuff which I have refuted. View the replay, demos are icnredibly aeffective, it shows one wiping out a whole gren squad, and more destroying my base and taking out other squads in the process.

A nerf to AI killing power and a timer on demos will not make them useless. It just means players will have to think more before using them.

[Deionarra]

^How not to post^
(above Ano, who just sniped me)

Rants about how BS commandos are in 2.201 have nothing to do with post 2.316 commandos.

[Ano2]

Your gunna need an edit there :P

[Misterwight]

560 is a massive investment in infantry. If you kill a commando squad ASAP its a massive investment lost, one that won't return for a while. thats almost 2/3 of a tiger tank or pershing. You'd expect it to change games, now wouldn't you?
Nobody with any kind of luck or brains is going to lose a whole commando squad unless they're being reckless. 6 men with soldier armor, smoke, and the British retreat modifier are incredibly hard to kill.


Not to mention the vunerablity of the glider. theres a good second or two to smash the glider before commandos even get out.
You're dreaming. The only way the glider is getting destroyed before the commandos make it out is if it takes critical damage during landing. I've had cases where I've ordered 4 tanks plus schrecked infantry to focus fire as soon as it was targetable, and the Red Devils still made it out just fine.

[AntiCommie]

AA is the only way I've seen a Glider die with the commandos onboard.

[Ano2]

If anyone wants to do commando labbing i'm in the beta now ^^

[Unicous]

have a puma or an ostwind take it down from the air. it's 250 hp, so in order to kill it you need to damage it right when it comes in. it's too late when it's already on the ground, you won't be able to inflict 250 dmg within 2 or so seconds.

[Jaigen]

@Vintage I didn't bring KCH up it was Jaigen. All I'm saying is that KCH are better than Commandos (what he doubted). I'm not saying KCH are the answer to commandos but as I said before there are already counters on the field from T1 on, plus everything that has a armor will beat commandos.

OMFG no i didn't bring up a commando vs KCH issue. What im (and pay attention for once) saying is that you are saying commando's are worthless in late game because of tanks by that definition it would make KCH worthless which they simply aren't.

But i wouldnt mind seeing KCH in tier 3 anyway

[scoiatollo]

Nay! What I was saying is that the tanks are one part of why lategame commandos would be useless. What's a tiger again? 9CP? Two more than commandos would be.
There's a reason why no lategame infantry call-ins exist cause they would be nearly useless when they hit the field (especially if they don't have any sort of AT).
KCH are more durable, have the same damage output per man, can heal in the field plus have basic AT (yes I know it costs mun, but guess what most other factions would be happy about to have?). Despite the damage output KCH are better in every way, that's why you can't compare a doctrine specific call in unit that's supposed to kill infantry (and infantry only!) with a late game unit that you get no matter what bonuses you chose (may it be FTFL, Assault nades, ...).

Read the thread again, there are more than enough commando counters already! So why weakening something even further that's already been nerfed enough?

[CommanderHolt]

Demo charges are 50 munitions each thanks for pointing that out. So to lay 6, enough for 3 builings destroyed thats 300 munitions. Named one piece of artillery that can do that much damage to buildings for that price.

I think the Defensive 280mm for 250 muns can level any 1 U.S Base Building (Besides HQ).

Anyways I don't think Commandos are balanced (Yet), but they did resive some nerfs. I think they really need to upgrade to Stens for muns or at least remove the ability to build trenches and have a reasonable cooldown on Demo charges.

[Ghostly_Gecko]

Commandos aren't nearly as big of a deal as everyone seems to think they are. As Wehr, I'm extremely happy to see Commandos on the field because it means I don't have to deal with a Churchill and super-fortified emplacements.

Since Commandos are a specialized anti-inf unit, you can't use infantry as a reliable, cheap counter. It's like using an M8 to take out those double-shrecked Grens. Vet2/Vet3 Grens (since I'm assuming you're getting vet for them; if you're not, you can tech up to Pumas/Nebels and you've got your counters there) can take on Commandos. Two squads, one with an LMG can usually do fairly well against a Commando squad, as long as you keep the vanilla Grens behind the LMG squad.

Not counting the Vet costs:

600MP + 75Mun (of normal infantry) >>> 560MP (of dedicated anti-inf.)


That sounds pretty sweet to me. Of course, if an LMG isn't available or you don't have Vet (which, again, means you should've teched up :spin: ), popping IA or FTFL will make the Commandos run like hell.

And anyone complaining about Tommy/Commando blobs should consult some pro-tips.

PRO-TIP: See that infantry there? Those Grenadiers? Well, they can throw grenades! :rofl:

[CommanderHolt]

PRO-TIP: See that infantry there? Those Grenadiers? Well, they can throw grenades! :rofl:

I thought that Commandos can throw their Grenades even farther then Grenadiers.

[Vintage]

You think demo charges are FREE? thats 50 munitions a pop. If hes got enough munitions to spam demos all over the map, THEN YOU HAVE ALREADY LOST.

WTF? What else do British spend munitions on once they are done upgrading their first few squads? Drive your free OP to a munitions point and spam demos all game. British swim in munitions, they have an endless supply, if you find yourself not having enough then you don't know how to click your free bus and drive it to a munitions.

[scoiatollo]

And? Dodge his throw your own ;)

FTFL is btw really a bitch against commandos. someone used that today and 2 vet1 vGrens pwned my commandos in CC, quite impressive...

@Vintage: Button up ie, AP rounds, Canister shots,... Brits only swim in munition at the end game, early till late mid game they have actually very little mun.

[Heroin]

LOL see these commandos gecko? They can threw the nades even further than your grenadiers XD

And ya remember 4 grenadiers die faster then 6 commandos and your reenforce costes will be slightly higher than the one of the commandos xD

AHHH i hear it comming.... Just give your grenadiers mg42`s and watch the commandos die. RIGHT how about upgrade your damn commandos too with something they didnt had before?

[CommanderHolt]

We can go on say the commandos can also dodge that nade too, we can keep going on and on about that subject. Yes, I'm a regular Defensive Doctrine user and usually use FTFL to counter a huge mass of Tommies and/or Commandos with a LT. in tow w/ Heroic Charge on. Although it is cheap muns wise, keep in mind that Defensive Doctrine adds an already overstrained muns cost to Werh.

[scoiatollo]

560 vs 300, single purpose squad (pure AI) against multi purpose squad (AT or AI after upgrades), sounds reasonable to me that a 300mp squad beats it's more expensive direct counter...

[Unicous]

Vintage, brits swim in mun cause they have not that many abilities to spend them on, other than button, it's mostly one timers like weapon upgrades or the like. no pineapples no potato mashers, no no fausts. all the other things are doctrine specific. like IA, FtF.
commandos are the main mun consumers because they are the only brit inf unit (except rca cpt and lt, and minesappers and of course recon squads) that has mun dependant abilities.

[Heroin]

Hmmm as far as i can remember commandos should be top elite infantry and at least a counter to KCH but last time i watched my 6 KCH (upgrade level doesnt realy bother the commandos)were sadly beaten by the 6 commandos...and yes i always upgrade my first 2 squads grenadiers with mg42`s to counter the stuart (also inf killer) tank.

Nice thought keep it up....lol

[CommanderHolt]

The Grenadiers AI Upgrade is T3 and needs something like FTFL to help it counter Commandos. Plus Commandos has several abilities that are supiuor to Grenadiers.

Edit: They are only multi-purpose after at least a 75muns upgrade. Plus with a high chance to drop their weapons, they can easily fall into commandos hands.

[Splitmonkey]

Seriously 3 smgs for 75 munitions each instant inf rape problem solved.

[Unicous]

Heroin, i want that replay. because right now that's a statement that has no substance. i'm pretty sure this is plain overstatement or stupidness. there's no way (other than green cover/garrison, but that would fall in the category stupidity) that 2 kch squads get beaten by one commando squad. no way.

[Splitmonkey]

If you think about it the smg nerf would also weaken the firefly+commando imba as the commando glider that he will drop on your pak wont instantly rape the crew so you can ACTUALLY use support weapons again

Think of the possibilitys people. :banana:

[Heroin]

Well its just a waste of munition to spend more than one weapon upgrade to a grenadier squad because it increases the chance of droping one of the expensive weapons drastically which would fall straight into the enemy hands so you would literally buy the weapons for the enemy.

Im not a british hater or something like that all i want is a chance for british players to proof their skills and buy some upgrades too. So they would get at least the ability to use up some mun for other things than annoying artilery.^^

On the other hand its true that even british players are in need of munition....well only at start until they have a machine gun for the bren carrier and all weapon upgrades for their tommys.


Edit @ Unicous: Well just think it over its a simple thing the 6 commandos do mostly focus fire on a 3 men KCH team which has to retreat because 6 commandos simply beat 3 KCH. So whats left is the other 3 men team of KCH. well its not like theyve done no dmg but there are most of times still more commandos left than KCH. Commandos>KCH ( there is no use of nades because that would be random luck of one side who hits better)

[CommanderHolt]

Heroin, I highly doubt you would lose 2 KCH squads to 1 commando squads unless the commandos were in Heavy or trench cover. They aren't THAT OP.

I think they should lose the ability to build Trenches and start with 3 SMG and 3 Rifles w/ behind the line upgrade for another 3 Stens for around 75mun-100mun. Plus a reasonable cooldown for Demo charges. (30secs?)

[DrunkenBrawler]

WTF? What else do British spend munitions on once they are done upgrading their first few squads? Drive your free OP to a munitions point and spam demos all game. British swim in munitions, they have an endless supply, if you find yourself not having enough then you don't know how to click your free bus and drive it to a munitions.

flank speed (which had a cost increase in the beta), off-map arty, tetrarch tank upgun (yes, 50 per tiny tank), tank sight radius upgrade, PIAT ambush, 17p AP rounds, bren carrier upgun, bren gun button up, mines, stuart canister and probably a lot more which I forgot.

So his statement still stands, if he can spend all his munitions on democharges instead of all of the above, you're doing it wrong.

[Vintage]

So his statement still stands, if he can spend all his munitions on democharges instead of all of the above, you're doing it wrong.

No. Free OPs on munitions = plenty of munitions.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Install a 25 second cooldown on demo charges... Right now, 1 squad of commandos in your base, 12 seconds later, 1 less wehr building in your base. With a cooldown on demo charges, the same action would take a little over a minute...

It's still possible to blow up a wehr building in less than 12 seconds... it now just takes 3 squads of commandos. More difficult to get 3 squads of commandos into someone's base.

That's a massive improvement.

That same cooldown would seriously slow down the crap that happens to me with commandos. I stupidly only defend the right vic point with 3 PG squads. In comes commandos, Glider kills most of squad one, Grenade kills most of squad 2, and commandos kill the remaining 5 guys very quickly. Then sets 2 demo charges on enemy counter attack path, and starts capping the vic. Once capped, places a demo charge on the vic. Right now, that takes about 45 seconds to transpire from glider to boobytrapped vic. You'll need a bike/scout to go first to see if he put multiple mines on the counterattack path. You'll need to disable/take care of the boobytrapped vic point. That's alot for the british player to be able to accomplish in a very short amount of time.

With a cooldown on the demo charge, the commando player will finally need to make a decision.. Do I put down a mine for the counter attack? or do I boobytrap the vic? He won't have enough time to do both.

There is no ability like demo charges that doesn't have a cooldown. It's just too useful as mine, boobytrap, or building/bridge destroyer. That's why relic is looking at it right now. It shouldn't be: "I got commandos in your base, and have 300 munitions. I win."

[Ghostly_Gecko]

I thought that Commandos can throw their Grenades even farther then Grenadiers.

Hey now, don't misquote me. :rolleyes:


What I said was:


And anyone complaining about Tommy/Commando blobs should consult some pro-tips.

PRO-TIP: See that infantry there? Those Grenadiers? Well, they can throw grenades!

When you see a Blob of a LT, 3 Tommies and 3 Commandos coming at your two Grens, you throw a grenade and run. Using a grenade against a single Commando squad is a different story.

[Ano2]

Trouble with that is that by th etime you've thrown your nade high chances are the grens will be dead before they can retreat.

[Ghostly_Gecko]

They really shouldn't be. From nade-throwing range, Vet2/Vet3 Grens should be able to survive a volley or two from a blob.

Actually, even if you lost the squad, a nade could inflict more than 300MP of casualties, and certainly slow them down a lot more. Sure, reinforcement costs aren't high, but a nade in a blob could potentially take out well above 10 men. And if you kill a wounded LT/CPT, that's a good trade as well.

[Rust_Lord]

C'mon 10 guys? Thats optimistic unless they were already injured...
Nope, those beret wearing bastards have been hampered by the nerfs but are still as deadly as ever. Destroying T800 series terminators with phased plasma rifles would be easier than it is to kill commandoes. They can appear without warning, able to land on the forehead of a grenadier, cause mayhem and destruction only to disappear into thin air before you even realise your dead. Its no wonder Hitler ordered the Gestapo to kill any captured British Commandoes...What a sore loser; usually having a whinge on the balance forum is enough for most players so he must have been wtfpwned hard by them...at least he didnt drop-hack I guess.

[Thinking42Man]

Commandos need to cost significantly more than tommys per reinforcement. I would suggest 40-42 each. Their demo charges should be set to the same cooldown timer as concealing smoke and their grenades, and should cost more than D&D or American engineer charges if they continue to be placeable anywhere.

[tatatank]

all i want fixed now is

Commando Smg abundance against Wehrmacht. Right now there is nothing in the wehrmacht arsenal that can combat commandos properly 3 cp into the game. And in the long run, commando spam really kicks thier teeth out.

30 range on thier grenade should be 20 like the american pineapple, or raise the paratrooper range to match it.

demo charge timer is rather short.

[Schwarzwald]

do commandos reinforce as slow as KCH now? if so than thats a start.

[ViiKumi]

Commando accuracy should be decreased against everything, their reinf. cost should be more than 40, their glider shouldn't be able to crush infantry (ie. first there comes smokes(green or yellow smoke), then about 5 seconds after that, the glider lands. Would be more like artillery then). If they don't fix those, then I believe that they should A: rearrange the lhs (make glider HQ 3cp, make it the first, commandos 2 cp, make them the last, or the second) or B: make commandos cost 4cp...

At the moment of gaining 3 cp's the brits have a choice of A: Destroying all AT infantry(and all others)[Commandos] or destroying all early tanks(and AI infantry)[Churchill]. Churchill is a heavy tank, old factions get heavy tanks after 8cp, while PE gets in 4, and brits in 3....(a bit irrelevant, but has a LOT to do in the discussion of british doctrines)

[scoiatollo]

@Blackwood: No they reinforce faster and I really don't think they should reinforce that slow.


(ie. first there comes smokes(green or yellow smoke), then about 5 seconds after that, the glider lands.

LOL! That's like saying, look you want to take out a shitload of mp? Here it comes, just kill the glider and you will cost your opponent 560. If they'd ever implement that they should either refund the mp or make it much cheaper.


A: rearrange the lhs (make glider HQ 3cp, make it the first, commandos 2 cp, make them the last, or the second) or B: make commandos cost 4cp...

If you want to be really screwed as Wehrmacht just give Brits HQ glider for 3CPs. mobile mg, mobile mortar and finally a 3man PIAT squad that's cheap, fast, durable and has on top stens.
And a 4CP commando is no option, I'd rather get Artillery for the same amount op two mun point (possible one with secured resources) and spam Artillery like crazy to get the 4CPs needed for Commandos.

And btw you really don't want to compare a Churchill with a Tiger...

[BikerGnome]

But the Churchill isnt a heavy tnak in the same way a tiger/pershing is, and neither is the hetzer. Sure its fuel free but it isnt a game winner at that point

[nit]

You pay 500+ MP for a commando squad, so yeah they should be good!
I think they have been nerfed quite enough.

Although, I am in favor of a demo charge cooldown.

[Jaigen]

If you want to be really screwed as Wehrmacht just give Brits HQ glider for 3CPs. mobile mg, mobile mortar and finally a 3man PIAT squad that's cheap, fast, durable and has on top stens.

and how the fuck is this any different from when a werh player is fighting am . they to get mortars and hmg's but we really need to increase the mp cost of the piat squad.

but anyway these units a werhmacht player can fight. A commando team that drops after 3 cp you cant fight as mg42 is useless against them

[Thinking42Man]

1. If you want to be really screwed as Wehrmacht just give Brits HQ glider for 3CPs. mobile mg, mobile mortar and finally a 3man PIAT squad that's cheap, fast, durable and has on top stens.

2. I'd rather get Artillery for the same amount op two mun point (possible one with secured resources) and spam Artillery like crazy to get the 4CPs needed for Commandos.

1.I would love that. I can already take out your vickers with mortars, go ahead and take a manned mg, I already know how to counter them with mortars. I'd LOVE to fight manned mortars as opposed to Mortar Pits, I can actually de-crew and steal or destroy them with mortars, as is not the case with your CW Emplacement armor type mortar pits. PIAT Commandos? Take em, they can't repair, can't lay mines; they are no worse than a Gren squad with shrek, which is intuitively counterable.

2. Please, feel free.

[scoiatollo]

Seriosly, change the HQ with the command glider, I wouldn't have the slightest problem with it. Making no-go-areas with the HMG, having a mobile AT that doesn't suck without a Lt (speed wise) and a mobile mortar. Simply put 2mgs and a mortar team out while you build a 17lb/bofor in the sector to secure it.
The only buff that would be better is if you'd give artillery as the second doctrine ability on the LHS...

And you realise that you get 2 mg42 for the price of one commando so you can give one fire assistance. They can't throw nades while being cloaked so chances are pretty good that your mg42 will survive.

[MrFinsch]

I can't believe that this is still under discussion. In 1vs1, Commandos are completely broken.

Commandos:
- They are one of the best anti infantry infantry.
- They come early in the game at 3 CP
- They can kill when on their own
- They are usable as a main fighting force in groups
- They come in large squads, thus being immune to snipers
- They counter MG42 and suppression fire via smoke
- They have a free out of jail card with smoke
- Their demo charges are the best mines in the game, able to take out whole squads ...
- ... also offering them a basic anti vehicle weapon
- They can take out base buildings easily, with laying demo charges on the retreat point making retreat suicide
- They can take out nebels and similar units at any point in the game

How on earth can such a unit not be overpowered, no matter what it costs? How should such a unit be balanced????
Compare it to Fallschirmjaegers, that have much lower hitpoints, come in smaller squads (being a real weakness vs snipers), doing less damage than standard infantry with MP44s.

A single unit should not combine that many advantages, no matter what it costs! Especially when it comes that early in the game. Commandos, the way they are now, should not be in the game.

They are the easy button. The 'no risk' button.

Reduce their health. Decrease their damage. Put demo charge on a timer and drastically increase the duration it takes to place a demo charge. Make them less good in groups so they cant act as your main fighting force.

[yupi]

OMG. What's your stats for brits then? I bet you have 100/1 win/lose ratio. If not you are very dumb because with such an overpowered unit you would easily hit that ratio.

[Riithi]

Best fix for commandos for me would be if they changed from glider entry and changed it into parachute, then we atleast have a sensible warning, and it would be counterable..

atm their method of entry pisses me off the most.

As units themselves they aren't that uber, they are just good at what they do.. mow down inf, but PG-mp44's do the same, and KCH too.. so don't see an issue.

[Heroin]

Well i wouldnt make such a ruckus but anyway a nice list of advantages^^

[MrFinsch]

@yupi:
The point is not that I can't beat them or don't lose with them. I don't say that using commandos is a guaranteed win. But I don't see why I should go for any other unit if I have access to commandos. If my alternatives have more weaknesses and less advantages the unit is overpowered. It is overpowered compared to other brit-units as well as to the opponents units, including elite infantry.

The point is that they have a ton of advantages on a single unit.

[SgtWilson]

MrFinsch,

How about comparing Commondos to Storms instead of Falls - cost about the same (per man) but Storms are tougher.

They can go anywhere they want and destroy anything with Shrecks or bundled nades.

If Commandos are an "easy" button or "no risk" then so are these guys.

[CommanderHolt]

MrFinsch,

How about comparing Commondos to Storms instead of Falls - cost about the same (per man) but Storms are tougher.

They can go anywhere they want and destroy anything with Shrecks or bundled nades.

If Commandos are an "easy" button or "no risk" then so are these guys.

You also need to spend 75-150muns for Panzersrecks and/or MP44s (T2 and T3 in BETA repectively). Plus they are very easy to Suppress and Pin down and can't use camo partway when retreating.

[MrFinsch]

Yes, I also thought about that.
The bundled nade is very strong. But I don't think Stormtroopers are overpowered. If you lose sight of a storm squad, you don't have to expect that they lay super powerful mines everywhere.

I must admit, I dont use Stomtroopers a lot. But when I face them, I don't think they are overpowered. Often, they come out of nowhere and do a limited amount of damage and are forced to retreat after that.
Cloaking storms to move in is nice, but it's not the free out of jail card. They move very slowly when cloaked and can't use this ability to move out of suppression or when under attack.

[SgtWilson]

Often, they come out of nowhere and do a limited amount of damage and are forced to retreat after that.
A bit like Commandos, IMO, if you just drop them into a situation without support, looking for any easy win.

I know it costs to upgrade Storms and it costs to use the bundled 'nade but used in groups of two or more they're pretty useful. They can appear out of nowhere, they're tougher to defeat than Commandos, they can heal without retreating, and they can take on any armour.

[MrFinsch]

But Storms react much slower. You spot a threat, you make or take a squad of Storms and move into position. While being cloaked, they are slow. You arrive at your target after some time, be it a mortar pit or whatever.
If you spot a threat as brits, your commandos are in position a second later.

I don't say this should be different. This is a very nice ability and it allows commandos to operate commando-style. But this type of operation does not require 6 Schwarzeneggers in a squad. It should be a squad for a specific task, not some uber-infantry rendering all other infantry useless in comparison.

[Vretsu]

I'm disappointed that the Beta has ended with the commandos (okay, Brits in general) only getting a slap on the wrist.

But Sturmtroopers with T3 assault rifles helps a little bit. <3

[D'yer Mak'er]

I'm disappointed that the Beta has ended with the commandos (okay, Brits in general) only getting a slap on the wrist.

But Sturmtroopers with T3 assault rifles helps a little bit. <3

Really? I could have sworn the firefly nerf was pretty serious and the command tank nerf downright brutal as well.

Nothing would ever stop your bitching aside from a 100% win-loss ratio, so why don't you just admit it now and save us the time of reading your posts? Thats not just directed at you, either, pretty much everyone in this thread.

I lose games as Brits, Commandos are not all-fucking mighty like the exaggerations would make you think.

Sick of commandos? Well too god damned bad. Maybe its because RCA isn't useable in 1v1's and is a liability in most 2v2's until late game (if you last that long). Then theres RSE, who has half a tree that is nothing but passive and whose only saving grace is the churchill and AVRE. Then again, it could also be because every other brit unit moves slow as dogshit unless you attach one, expensive little bastard to the unit - which commandos don't need.

[SuchisLife]

Then again, it could also be because every other brit unit moves slow as dogshit unless you attach one, expensive little bastard to the unit
What's the hurry when the Relic balance team has given them an 80% chance of winning from the start. lol.


I'm disappointed that the Beta has ended with the commandos (okay, Brits in general) only getting a slap on the wrist.
I agree. The 2 most talked about topics on the forums are commandos and trenches. Trenches got no change and commandos got, as you put it, a slap on the wrist.

[Dryden]

commandoes cant be nerfed further if PE stays the same. That is plain and simple.
PE can have 8 MP44 for 510mp\150mun. Compare this with commandoes' firepower...
Even wermacht can now have MP44 in t3 and we all know that blitz lets you skip KB.

Trenches should be changed only if sniper+flamers+nebels dont work.

[Crashh]

Commandos are needed, its just the truth.
Tommies dont work as they utterly suck without a leut or two, who just gets raped so fast is not even funny in the late game - and they cost a load :(

Also the other tree's are just too much crap compared to use, buff them a little and people might just use them instead, so far artillery line is not worth it, and RSE's tanks jsuts WAY too much CP and MP to use in any real way other than a fast tank rush and game winner (not fun).

Nerf the commando line too much and brits jsut dont stand a chance anymore as thats is pretty much all they got. period.

[Thinking42Man]

Nerf the commando line too much and brits jsut dont stand a chance anymore as thats is pretty much all they got. period.

Wow, you just earned the privilege of being ignored due to the fact that you are a noob.

Did it ever occur to you that the other support choices need to be buffed but also the RCS needs to be nerfed?

[LTSearchEngine]

In response to about half of you:

A garrisoned HMG is now a viable counter to commandos. This is huge. This solves most of the problems with them, I believe.

To elaborate... you can still probably drop a glider right by a building and the commandos will be able to pop out and grenade straightaway, but the nade will probably not kill the whole HMG crew. The HMG then will DESTROY the commando squad at close range with lacking cover.

Otherwise, you can either close with the HMG (use smoke) and then be totally ineffective at close range without a grenade, OR you can try to crawl up to the HMG and toss a grenade, but not be able to smoke after. Either way, the smoke is now a tool, and not a "I win" button in combination with grenades for most tactical situations. No more grenade - smoke move - small gap between coming out of smoke and another grenade - grenade - fight until smoke cooldown (or retreat) - rinse and repeat.

We can now start arguing about fine-tuning the cost efficiency of a commando unit, rather than my experience that commandos in the original release transcended cost effectiveness - they could literally wipe the floor with any (within 500-750 manpower) infantry-based anti-infantry setup. Without the smoke and grenade combo, I could never repeat my greatest feat of wiping out 2 PE MP44 PzG squads, 1 Axis Sniper, 1 Mortar, and 1 garrisoned HMG (~1300MP, plus munitions) with a commando squad I dropped in blind -- and then retreated with three men left.

[D'yer Mak'er]

Did it ever occur to you that the other support choices need to be buffed but also the RCS needs to be nerfed?

Maybe it didn't occur to him because no one on this forum ever says that, all they do is scream "NERF XXXXX".

[Nomad_Wanderer]

PE doesn't have a garrisoned MG.

I labbed this last night with some people... You sacrifice a tank to kill the Flak Gun on the side you are going to attack on, then run your commandos in, behind the enemy HQ, and set demo charges.. He will have to bring units in close, behind the HQ to be able to stop you.

It's really overpowered. As long as I can get my commandos in, you're in big trouble.

We started to see what it takes to stop commandos from placing the charge... They can still place 2 charges when under direct fire from a single scout car... (though they need to retreat to the captain that is next to the glider to reinforce, right after placing the second charge)

I think you need to have a INF/HT and a Squad of G43 PG's in your base at all times to stop this.

:(

[Dryden]

Nomad_Wanderer, if you see that tank kills your flak and dont retreat some troops to base... YADIW


Quote:Originally Posted by Crashh
Nerf the commando line too much and brits jsut dont stand a chance anymore as thats is pretty much all they got. period.

Wow, you just earned the privilege of being ignored due to the fact that you are a noob.

Did it ever occur to you that the other support choices need to be buffed but also the RCS needs to be nerfed?nerf them TOO MUCH and they wont stand a chance. He is right :) Tho saying things like "nerf them to uselessness and they will be useless" is a bit ... useless.

[MajFauxPas]

- Commando Infantry reinforce cost increased from 25 to 35
Not enough. Reinforcement needs to be at least 1/2 of the original cost per squad member, which would be around 43 MP per commando. if PG are 45 each to reinforce, which is more than 1/2 of what each member actually costs, then 45 would be a good price for commandos as well.

- British Commando Concealing Smoke and Commando Grenades share timers - abilities cannot be used at the same time.
And demo charges. All three should share timers: smoke, nades, charges. IMO the only reason Relic didn't do the right thing and nerf demo charges in this way is that it would make the airfield single-player mission harder. For multiplayer, the smoke-then-democharge has got to go.

- Commando Gliders will be able to land anywhere except enemy base sectors.
That will disallow idiots from baseraping, but the smart ones will just put gliders next to the base and use smoke to get past the MG nest. Nice try, but it doesn't solve anything.
The real solution for multiplayer balance is to have gliders land only within sight radius, i.e. not all the way across the map where you can't see anything. It's bad strategy to do that anyway... imagine there's a Wirbelwind or Ostwind there. Oh wait, I forgot that Wirbelwinds and Ostwinds can't kill gliders or commandos. gfg.
:rant:

[scoiatollo]

Oh wait, I forgot that Wirbelwinds and Ostwinds can't kill gliders or commandos
riiight... troll yomewhere else...

If you'd actually play brits you'd see that the 35mp are enough to hurt Brits, also not being able to throw nades while being camoed hurt. If you think they are such imba units, how about switching to Brits and show us what you are capabel of with commandos...

[Hartmann]

That people using commandos still lose games isn't proof of them not being OP.

[MrFinsch]

Of course it hurts if you increase reinforce to 35. If one faction has a very strong unit it will hurt if you weaken it. What is your point?
Still, what hurts is only a small scratch on a monster. It has to hurt a lot more to be balanced.

edit:
and of course wirbelwinds and ostwinds can kill commandos. Wirbelwind sucks, though.
Commandos have counters, even hard counters (if you do not consider using demo charges as anti tank mines which can be very effective). But these counters come late in the game. Most important: Commandos make all other infantry of brits useless since they are providing more for less.

[DrunkenBrawler]

Of course it hurts if you increase reinforce to 35. If one faction has a very strong unit it will hurt if you weaken it. What is your point?
Still, what hurts is only a small scratch on a monster. It has to hurt a lot more to be balanced.

edit:
and of course wirbelwinds and ostwinds can kill commandos. Wirbelwind sucks, though.
Commandos have counters, even hard counters (if you do not consider using demo charges as anti tank mines which can be very effective). But these counters come late in the game. Most important: Commandos make all other infantry of brits useless since they are providing more for less.

Armored cars, pumas and panzer IV doesn't come very late. They can often come even before you have 3 CPs, which would make many brits go RSE.


That people using commandos still lose games isn't proof of them not being OP.

No, but you guys saying that they're still OP isn't proof of them actually being OP either. How much experience do you have versus commando doctrine in the beta? They've been nerfed now, which obviously makes them weaker. If it's too much or too little, who knows? Noone got the experience yet, and just because you guys are saying they're still OP doesn't make them so.

[OutpostCommand]

If you'd actually play brits you'd see that the 35mp are enough to hurt Brits, also not being able to throw nades while being camoed hurt. If you think they are such imba units, how about switching to Brits and show us what you are capabel of with commandos...

That argument is flawed in so many aspects.

Firstly, Panzergrenadiers, a far less capable unit cost 45MP to reinforce. It doesnt make the PGrens obsolete though does it.

Secondly, MP is not something you fight over. Its not like Munitions, or Fuel, which you have to fight viciously over (well, for Wehrmacht, PE, and US, anyway) - you are guaranteed a MP income. Go figure.

Thirdly, Commandos invalidate virtually invalidate all infantry in a 1v1 (oh come on, who builds Vet3 KCH or dual MP44 STs ?) - thats a pretty powerful denial, even in the hands of a useless player.



Here, for -- hell, for 700MP even, as Wehrmacht from the Terror doctrine, I wouldnt mind a unit which absolutely invalidates all infantry AND has the potential of setting up traps, destroying bases in under a minute, and can bypass its hard-counters (MGs).

560MP for such a unit at 3CP from the Brits is pretty much the equivalent of the above, but cheaper.


Two nerfs for Commandos are all it takes:

1) MP reinforce cost = 55 (KCH are 60, and well, Commandos ARE elite infantry)
2) Commandos drop with either only 3 Stens OR their damage output is halved.


Commandos should be special operations units. Their abilities and method of entering the battlefield confirm this. They already have all they need to be that and more. By the above nerfs, they will be just that: special operations -much like Airborne.

Do you see any American players complaining when their Airborne squad is taken out by a Volksgrenadier squad ?
No - Airborne are specialist infantry (who are less capable than commandos - imagine giving invincibility AND invisibility to them for 5 seconds at any point - what a uproar this would cause !) who are not meant to really engage other (ungarrisoned) infantry.

You know - sneak in, blow something critical up, and GTFO before the enemy even realises what happened.

Commandos should fulfill the exact same role - and what justifies their high cost compared to Airborne (560MP vs 375MP) ? 'Commando Smoke', 'Commando Grenades' (which dont need to be researched, unlike for the Americans) and limited AI capability. That, to me, perfectly would justify the additional 185MP cost.

[scoiatollo]

Firstly, Panzergrenadiers, a far less capable unit cost 45MP to reinforce. It doesnt make the PGrens obsolete though does it.
PGs also have a lower upfront cost, plus they are way more versatile. They also can get Vet, something you will enarly never see with commandos.


Secondly, MP is not something you fight over. Its not like Munitions, or Fuel, which you have to fight viciously over (well, for Wehrmacht, PE, and US, anyway) - you are guaranteed a MP income. Go figure.
I am also guaranteed that my only other infantry that's capable of fighting infantry cost 450mp more than any other standard infantry. I am also guaranteed that brits have to spend more mp than any other faction or do you wanna argue about that?


Thirdly, Commandos invalidate virtually invalidate all infantry in a 1v1 (oh come on, who builds Vet3 KCH or dual MP44 STs ?) - thats a pretty powerful denial, even in the hands of a useless player.
2vGrens with FTFL will beat a commandosquad iirc. Assault nades kill commandos, 2mg42 can now take out commandos. Shall I go on with what PE can take them out?


1) MP reinforce cost = 55 (KCH are 60, and well, Commandos ARE elite infantry)
2) Commandos drop with either only 3 Stens OR their damage output is halved.

1)LOL! sorry, but you can't be serious suggesting that if you'd actually played Brits a single time
2) for 560 and 3CPs? Right....

[Jaigen]

The problem is with the wehrmacht not the commando's. Brits are the fastest techers in the game followed by the pe. while the AM can keep up with the PE ,the wehrmacht cant keep up with the Brits resulting that Cromwell's arrive way before tier 4 and this forces the wehrmacht to buy shreks.

Second part of the problem is the very expensive lmg and mp44 upgrades. with so much ammo diverted into shreks its nearly impossible for a wehrmacht player to divert ammo to lmg and mp44's.

To make the wehrmacht less ammo dependant the stug needs a buff and nerf to become a tank hunter and by reducing the stugs AI to zero.

the lmg ammo cost should be lowered to 40 ammo and the mp44 upgrade to 50 ammo.

And despite what scoiatollo says the commando's really should be 45 mp a reinforcement. The fact i that a unit with such great abilities and a ammo free smg reallly should cost more

[Heroin]

Well i sympathise with OutpostCommand and Jaigen. Commandos are still too cheap compared to their usefullness. Their reenforce costs should be at least 40 to ensure a brit player not to sacrifice them totally. And to make clear that they arent kinda free to reenforce. Second they shouldt have al of their abilities unlocked (for free) from start on.

Scoiatollo your pretty insane, the versatility and usefullness of nearly every other infanty unit in the game is a result of expensive upgrades and researches which can determin a game.

THERE IS NOT SUCH A CHOICE IF YOU PLAY COMMANDOS THEYRE USEFULL FROM START ON ABLE TO DO DAMAGE TO EVERY OTHER UNIT IN THE GAME MAY IT BE INFANTRY, VEHICLES OR EVEN BUILDINGS AND AS A COMMANDO INFANTRY TYPE THEIR REENFORCE COST ARE EVEN AFTER THE LATEST PATCHES RIDICULOUS!

[rendari]

...without commandos what other infantry alternatives would the Brits have to stand up vs crack Wehr Infantry?

[HellToupee]

Scoiatollo your pretty insane, the versatility and usefullness of nearly every other infanty unit in the game is a result of expensive upgrades and researches which can determin a game.


So what? fact is these units have these versatility options.

Commandos are are the most expensive infantry unit in the game with an AI focus, while wehr players seem to be annoyed that their core general purpose do everything infantry units are not cost effective counter to their counter.....

Build a fuckin puma or ostwind problem solved.....

[Vintage]

...without commandos what other infantry alternatives would the Brits have to stand up vs crack Wehr Infantry?

Um...Tommies? The best infantry in the game? Press Overpowered charge and focus fire and kills squads instantly?

[Hartmann]

Commandos didn't get nerfed yet. They got a 'slap on the wrist' as somebody already put it. They just took some exploits away like smoked capping and smoked grenades.

The glider still crushes, and they still rape any infantry without even having to get an upgrade. Now FSJ, they got nerfed.

[plumbob]

yeh but PE have mp44's aswell as brits only have commandos that are powerfull units that dont have movement penalties.

[Jaigen]

The glider still crushes, and they still rape any infantry without even having to get an upgrade. Now FSJ, they got nerfed.

indeed by the scoiatollo and helltoupe flawed reasoning that cost = should be uber . Then the fsj should be brought back to their original effectiveness and then some more. since each individual member cost more to summon then a commando.

Also because of their flawed reasoning the fsj reinforcement cost should be cut 35 because they pay so much upfront 35 mp is a good price . What am i thinking!? they dont have awesome abilities and they need to pay for their smg. Better reduce it to 25 mp reinforcement because fsj cost so much to call in

[Hartmann]

No, FSJ shouldn't be brought back to their original effectiveness because they were OP. It's just that Relic (and everybody else) recognised them as being OP and 'fixed' them. Now I don't understand why they aren't willing to do the same thing to commandos.

[shiner980]

I'm quite sure Jaigen was being being sarcastic there, but in all seriousness he is quite right. Falls are 420 mp infantry that can appear out of any neutral building, which need an additional 75 munitions to make them infantry worth popping out in the first place, and are arms with extremely long timed incindary nades and Panzerfaust. This is compared to a 560 mp appear anywhere with free sten smgs that are just as effective as MP44s, and you get magic stealth smoke, long range nades, and rapid demo charge placement. Commandos are like the babies of Assault Grenadiers and Airborne, just without the RR. While the FSJ, which is 120 mp cheaper, is pretty much a glorified MP44 squad with extra long range firepower. Ill take commandos anyday, cause they are just that good...

[HellToupee]

scoiatollo and helltoupe flawed reasoning that cost = should be uber

Cost is important, if it costs more than its worth no one will use it, if it costs less than its worth then its a jadgpanther.

You seem to have the flawed reasoning cost means nothing towards the value of a unit.



Also because of their flawed reasoning the fsj reinforcement cost should be cut 35 because they pay so much upfront 35 mp is a good price . What am i thinking!? they dont have awesome abilities and they need to pay for their smg. Better reduce it to 25 mp reinforcement because fsj cost so much to call in

Falls reinforcement cost was cut to 37.

Falls also do not get a smg they get an automatic rifle.

[Splitmonkey]

After they pay for said auto rifle even then theres much to be desired, said units also come in a small squad the way all elite units should be.

[Ano2]

I fail to see how adding a cooldown to demos and reducing dmg slightly (especially on the move) will make them in anyway not worth the cost.

[HellToupee]

I fail to see how adding a cooldown to demos and reducing dmg slightly (especially on the move) will make them in anyway not worth the cost.


It depends on what people deem slightly, cool down on demos and such is a given, but what level of dmg of the stens? most of the complains being around OMG commandos beat my cheaper infantry units!

[MajFauxPas]

...without commandos what other infantry alternatives would the Brits have to stand up vs crack Wehr Infantry?

Comandos do extremely well vs. crack wehr inf, and if they get nerfed, try the Cromwell, which can kill squads in one shot, or even the diminutive Stuart, which can kill suqads in one shot. :p

[scoiatollo]

A shot that costs 75mun and is situational despite the unit that it shoots is fragile at best...
Cromwell comes too late.

[nichtganz]

Ive seen two squads take out an entire base. whithin a minutes time, something seems wrong about that.

[Border Patrol]

if a 560 mp unit can be given a run for its money by vet2 mp40 volks then it would be underpowered, now wouldnt it?
theyre fine, quite bitching. falls acutally were brokenly overpowered due to a glitch with their rate of fire, as opposed to commandos which are a infantry gobblers when used correctly.

[OutpostCommand]

PGs also have a lower upfront cost, plus they are way more versatile. They also can get Vet, something you will enarly never see with commandos.

a)More versalite ? In what sense ? Apart from the upgrade to the panzershreck, I fail to see how. Infact, COMMANDOS are more versatile because they can pretty much render all infantry a useless MP drain, can eliminate any garrisoned infantry, AND can bypass their hardcounters.

b)Saying that they dont recieve vet isnt a justification for the super-powered commandos. They already have a ton of health and kill any infantry just by staring at them - what more could you possibly hope to achieve by getting vet ?


I am also guaranteed that my only other infantry that's capable of fighting infantry cost 450mp more than any other standard infantry. I am also guaranteed that brits have to spend more mp than any other faction or do you wanna argue about that?

There is nothing to complain about that infantry - its very powerful and versatile. Besides, what else are you going to spend the MP on ? Calling a field support truck for its measly 185MP ?
And yes, I know teching up costs a bit more than that, but it doesnt matter - apart from teching, the Brits arent nearly even as heavily drained for MP as, say, Wehrmacht are for MU.



2vGrens with FTFL will beat a commandosquad iirc. Assault nades kill commandos, 2mg42 can now take out commandos. Shall I go on with what PE can take them out?

Actually, no they wont.

2x Grenadiers: Smoke + charge = one less grenadier squad. Do you think that one Gren squad will take out a Commando squad ?

Assault Nades will kill commandos if the player is AFK.

Dual MG42s, THE HARD COUNTERS TO INFANTRY, will not really kill a commando squad. Smoke or nade, then retreat, then come back for more. He will loose around 84 or 260MP per strike you do whereas the Brit will loose 35MP if you have bad luck.




1)LOL! sorry, but you can't be serious suggesting that if you'd actually played Brits a single time
2) for 560 and 3CPs? Right....


Im very serious. Infact, I fail to see why im not justified in my reasoning.

560MP and 3CPs isnt justification enough.
3CPs come in within 5-7 minutes of the game, and 560MP is a great price for something which annihilates infantry - why shouldnt losses be pricey for a crack squad ?




if a 560 mp unit can be given a run for its money by vet2 mp40 volks then it would be underpowered, now wouldnt it?
theyre fine, quite bitching. falls acutally were brokenly overpowered due to a glitch with their rate of fire, as opposed to commandos which are a infantry gobblers when used correctly.
I would LOVE to see this. I have never even had my Vet 3 (let alone Vet 2) MP40 Volks stand 5 seconds against commandos before hearing "they defended the fatherland until death".


Cromwell comes too late.

Whhaaat ?! It absolutely demolishes infantry AND fares great against armour and comes in around halfway through T3s life - this is yet another super-unit which luckily from my experiences, not many have 'discovered' in automatch yet.

It even manages to blow out ALWAYS atleast one person out of a building per shot.

Then there is flank-speed which renders anti-tank guns devoid of their purpose, but thats another whole can of worms.

[Ano2]

It depends on what people deem slightly, cool down on demos and such is a given, but what level of dmg of the stens? most of the complains being around OMG commandos beat my cheaper infantry units!

I'd say 30 sec cooldown for demo, and reduce sten accuracy modifier by 0.2 standing still and from 0.5 to 0.2 when on the move (Same accuracy as volks 40s on the move).

[whatsleft]

agreed with the sten accuracy reduction, currently commandos can produce so much dps even on the move that they are better than rifle sections at medium range.

vetted volks with mp40s will not stand up against commandos, vet2 KCH can barely stand up against commandos. mp40 volks can only deter commandos, not a solution.

[MrFinsch]

sociatollo, FSJs have been nerfed to be absolute crap units while all they had were anti infantry capability. The part that FSJs had has now been taken by another unit in another faction: Commandos.

But Commandos have much better abilities than FSJs ever had while having much less counters and being much easier to use. If there is an elite unit in the game that deserves to be the uber anti infantry unit, thats Fallschirmjaeger.

vs Wehr:
Have you ever played something else that Brits? Do you know how it feels playing as a Wehr player vs brits? The basic infantry units, (Volks) have to retreat as soon as Tommy squads show up. Which is, by the way, 0 seconds in the game. If a glider lands near them, vet + MP40 or not, you have to retreat them. If there is a slight obstacle in the way or you press retrat a second to late, they are dead.
Grens are small 4 man squads that become useful after heavy munition invenstments. There is a strong chance that you lose your weapons in an encounter. For that reason, you have to retreat Grens when they are down to 50% of their manpower the latest. If they are down to 3 man with low health you have to retreat earlier. Vet is a must and costs a lot of fuel. Of course being low on fuel and munition is an unknown concept for the brit player, which allows him to get armor earlier. He has all the fuel that he needs, and now the Wehr player is even more on the run.

Wehr players can win vs brits. But the game is heavily biased for the brit player. Wehr T1 is worthless. T2 is countered by Commandos. T3 and T4 is delayed by Commandos.

[Splitmonkey]

Playing in 2.201 yesterday i finally built panzer command and had vet 3 for my inf so i thought vet 3 knights cross, sweet only to lose to a commando squad capping a vic point.

[ViiKumi]

A shot that costs 75mun and is situational despite the unit that it shoots is fragile at best...
Cromwell comes too late.

Cromwell comes too late? What the hell have you been smoking?
Cromwell = 15+30+30+65+70 fuel (= 210 fuel) when StuG comes at (15+)35+50+35+50 (= 185 fuel) and Panzer 4 comes at (15+)+35+(25)+50+50+50+80 fuel (= 305), and by that you probably have atleast vet 2 infantry (+30+50 fuel) = 385 fuel.

So cromwell comes before stug resourcewise, since the brits have free OP's, and don't have to waste fuel for veterancy. (and for stug they already have piats and stuarts)

[scoiatollo]

@OutpostCommand:
You are saying that a unit that is able to kill buildings/tanks or infantry after a small fee is not versatile? And no, commandos don't render infantry useless post a replay where that actually happened.

So Vet is no factor? Interesting so let's take the wholel Vet system out if it doesn't matter...

Tommies versatile? They have no AT capabillities, are slow as hell if you either don't weaken them by buying the recon upgrade or providing a Lt in the area that can be killed with a flanking bike. And no, Brits have to invest a shitload of mp into emplacements in case you haven't noticed, emplacement that can't move so your enemy can chose when to attack.

In case you haven't noticed, you can't throw nades and use smoke at the same time. As for FTFL have you actually tried it or are you just trolling? Even with smoke they have to advance while Grens move backwards negating the bonus they get in CC. But you are right, if the WE player is dumb enough to stand still while he can be sure that the commandos are advancing in his direction he will lose.

3CPs at min7? Against a WE who sacrifice his troops maybe but not against someone who uses his brains.

@MrFinch: I play Wehrmacht and tbh I have less problems against Brits than against US. Maybe you should start playing Brits to get a feeling for them...
If T1 isn't usefull as you say, why in hell are there many WE players out there who successfully push hard T1 quicktech T3 and steamroll Brits with StuGs or Pumas? If you are not capable to use your faction advantages maybe you should sqitch to another faction...

edit: So Croms come the minute Grens hit the field? Intersting. I was refering to their AI capabillities and for that they come to late if you are being pushed hard by an infantry heavy army.

[OutpostCommand]

I dont need to even look for a replay - just look AT ANY replay anywhere where commandos are deployed (GR.org ?) and look how stupidly overpowered they are.

And vet very much is a factor - you quote me out of context. I say that veterancy is not a justification for the OPness/UPness of a unit. Big difference.

And Tommys are incredibly versatile -
Garrisoned Infantry ? RGrens
Pesky snipers or just floating a ton of MU ? Recon
General infantry annihilating and anti-armour support ? Bren

A LT is required to tech up, is pretty cheap, and provides great (if not ludicrous at Vet 1 (HC)) bonuses - its not as if its not worth purchasing a LT.

And I realise that smoke + nade is no longer possible - what stops you reaching cover with smoke then deploying a nade ?
And FTFL is a nice little ability - but its no game changer. It can swing the balance of a critical battle, but its not exactly a 'I win' button and will not win you a lost battle.
It also is pretty expensive for a faction which has to donate munitions by the hundreds here or there constantly, whether it be Flamers, Panzershrecks, LMGs, MP40s, standard grenades, FTFL, IA, Assault, or the other hundreds of ways to spend it (those are just my most common MU sinks)

And come on, you cant be serious about kiting Commandos with Grenadiers. You often accuse others of never playing British, however, I start to have my suspicions you never play anything other than British. The only possibilities are retreat or die (unless you have Vet 2 and a LMG on both squads (a LOT of resources) - with which you may just about face a slim chance of holding your ground).
Hell, kiting with infantry seldom proves useful - particularly for Wehrmacht.

3CP at 7m is something I very often get. Im a level 9-10 Wehrmacht player and very frequently face level 11-12 opponents. Im no super-pro, but I know my stuff.
I dont see how getting 3CP within 7m (or even 5 mins if its a real hell of a battle (at high level play, these difficult struggles become more and more common)).

And one Cromwell, no exaguration, can pretty much 'gg' a T2 heavy start with some decent micro - ive done it and ive had it done to me. The way they snipe infantry and negate AT guns is ludicrous. Its essentially a StuG with a turret, long range, slightly worse frontal armour, rocket-boosters, and the ability to devastate infantry.

[Znuff]

scoiatollo, so PGs are versatile because they have diffrent upgrades but Tommies upgrades does not make them versatile in the same way? I actualy agree with the later as I consider weapon upgrades to be essentialy diffrent versions of units. I.e. a Recon element cant switch to Bren or Riflegrenade or the other way, so are locked into one use. This is diffrent then Rangers who can kill everything with combination of Bazookas and Tommy guns or Commandos who can slaughter infantry and buildings without giving up either option.

Commandos gains vet in the same way all other CW infantry do. The advantage of being able to drop down on units to kill them is just that an advantage, you are free to team them up with LTs afterward. Claiming otherwise would be like claiming the FJs cant reinforce as they dont have the Glider of commandos as its pretty obvious that they can get back to base and reinforce like any other unit if you want.

Tommies and Commandos arent realy that expensive either. They are just large squads, that is why they cost more then smaller squads. Commandos are actualy fairly cheap, the glider itself is worth atleast 50 manpower wich fits ,wich that you can build commandos for 50 less from it as well, and you get SMGs by default wich if we compare with AGs where 3-4 Mp44s are worth 105 manpower so 6 Stens should be worth atleast that. If we deduct 50 and 105 from the cost of Commandos so are they actualy cheaper then FJs and they are deffinitly more usefull. FJs also come at 3cps nowdays.

[whatsleft]

god, bike is/was/were/will never be a counter to the LT, at best it can be a LT harasser or kill a LT if a player is not aware.

but during a firefight, no LT is gonna die because of a flanking nazicycle that does a 2second driveby to mow down a LT.

anyone with a quarter of a brain will focus on the bike, LT included and less than 2 secs of focus firing, 180mp down the drain and this does not even help the volks/MG a bit.

the only 2 early counter i see for a LT is a recon snipe, but sadly thats a british ability or focus firing.

[Znuff]

LTs are a bit offtopic, but as they have been brought up several times. The CW vet system combines the advantages of the other factions in that it can both be bought (more LTs give more bonuses) and improve by killing units. The vulnerability of LTs are more then made up by that CW units themselves are large and thus easy to keep alive. Its far easier to lose small units before you can manage to retreat.

[HellToupee]

what the hell is CW

[DrCloud]

what the hell is CW
Commonwealth, I assume

[Splitmonkey]

As long as they beat vet 3 knights cross there not acceptable, oh and a lt vs bike is a tossup if you rush the bike and he can also take on a pio squad.

[D'yer Mak'er]

Hmm, I'm pretty sure they don't beat vet 3 knights cross holders. If they do, they'd have one soldier left in the squad.

Lt will lose versus a bike, in fact thats a pretty asinine move to even try it. He can take on a pio squad, but he'll usually be brought down to less than a quarter life, if not in cover. Again, why risk that?

[Splitmonkey]

I posted the replay they beat them

[Defenstrator]

It's true. I've had it happen as well. While the KCH are hellish tough their weapons aren't as good, and more importantly, there are only three of them. A full six man Commando squad has the firepower of those three extra guys which makes all the difference.

Fortunately I managed to retreat my last KCH the last game it happened, and I made another squad and came back. Two full vet KCH do manage to win against a unit of Commandos, but the fact that Wher has to get to this level is absolutely ridiculous.

I also note Scoiatollo talking about backing Grens up vs Commandos, ignoring completely the fact that the Grens best weapon against the Commandos is their LMG. The one which you can only use if you don't move.

[Ano2]

its also pretty poor at close range.

[roflmao]

What is pretty poor at close range ano2? The LMG is only good at close range, so what weapon are you talking about?

Commandos are OP imo, but they are also the most expensive infantry unit in the entire game. So yes, their power needs reduction, but their price probably need reduction as well (if they are nerfed, of course).

[shadowolfe]

OutpostCommand you are absolutely totally and completely correct, Commandos should be a BEHIND-THE-LINES unit! Right now they are a "i destroy all other infantry while dropping behind enemy lines while have uber abilities" unit. Just like Falls they need to be nerfed HARD, just as hard, if not harder...

[Dryden]

KCH loose to Commandoes because 360MP is much less then 560 or 510 MP.
And instead of KCH, why wont u buy an Ostwind vs commandoes?
IMO the only 2 wrong things about commandoes are:
1) they can demo-rape base
2) they come to early.
I say again and again - rework RCS tree like it was done with Armor which looked like:
Raid -> Calliope ->Pershing
FD -> CR -> AWM
Why same cant be done with commandoes to mix abilities and call-ins?

[rifleman]

Link (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?p=2853907#post2853907) to a thread with a replay of a glider landing inside the base territory in 2.317. I started a new thread because I got an error message while trying to post it here.

[Defenstrator]

Dryden, I totaly appreciate the MP difference between Commandos and KCH, but as mentioned, these particular ones were Vet 3. I would hope that the huge chunk of MP and Fuel I spent getting them there would count for something.

The resources spent on veterancy also explain why I didn't have and Ostwind handy. I'll probably make it more of a priority in the future as I have found it to be pretty devastating vs Brits. Kite it away and you can chew the squads very nicely indeed.

[classic77]

Not that I expect very many people to play as defencive doctrine, but I love it when a Brit drops a glider full of commandoes in my base, totally forgetting that all my base structures have MG's on them...lol.

[CommanderHolt]

Defensive Base Structure MG in my games don't really do too much commandos besides tickling them I think.

[mardal]

None of you guys have tried mp40 volks have you? they kill commandoes man for man.
And no im not on drugs or dreaming , its what i use very successfully in game.

[OutpostCommand]

Yep - the defensive base MGs are absolutelty awful against Commandos - it may aswell be a old man chucking rocks off the roof of that Kampfkraft center or Krieg Barracks

Mardal, even Vet 3 MP40 volks get absolutely devestated by commandos before they can fire a shot from my experience,

[Brother Glacius]

I'd be happy if they didn't allow commando's to pick up weapons. That would make them a dedicated AI unit only. I could live with that.

***** Brother G.

[ChocoboKnight88]

I'd be happy if they didn't allow commando's to pick up weapons. That would make them a dedicated AI unit only. I could live with that.

***** Brother G.
You obviously aren't thinking this through. Just how are you going to complete the Commando mission in the campaign with such a change? Rather than completely remove their ability to pick up weapons, I'd rather them being only able to pick up two heavy weapons (From three). If anybody should be capable of picking up three heavy weapons, it should be the Airborne. Their weapons are pretty crap anyway.


Mardal, even Vet 3 MP40 volks get absolutely devestated by commandos before they can fire a shot from my experience.
Oh come on... That's an exaggeration and you know it. I'm sure they can fire a burst before getting mowed down. lol.

Although, I think it is acceptable for a Commando squads to take on a Volksgrenadier squad and win easily. If it were the other way round, that would be beyond ridiculous, considering how cheap Volks are. Using MP40 Volksgrenadiers being defeated by Commandos as an example of them being overpowered is rather... Unjustified. Even if they are vet 3.

Although I would agree that they can be really troublesome for a Wehrmacht player. There's no denying that. I don't see why Panzer Elite players should complain though...

[Painmuffin]

it may aswell be a old man chucking rocks off the roof of that Kampfkraft center or Krieg Barracks

haha! I can imagine... Hanz: The retired kraut "Get out of my yard you whipper-snappers!"


Commandos are easy to deal with. Get Armor. No way in hell when commandos first come down the brit will have fireflies and commandos. PIAT's are laughable...

[LawrenceofArabi]

IMO the problem with commandos (the unit) is not just their damage output but the cloak-smoke, which can be used with basic micro to bypass many AI hard counters.

Either one of these needs to be changed. I am personally for a moving accuracy nerf on stens (and all other SMGs since good moving accuracy simply encourages mindless blobing). It makes it necessary to use some tactics rather than running at you enemy and smoking if something big comes along.

[Heroin]

Hmm well at least theres a big community of players who think commandos should get nerfed somehow because this is post 227 and it would be ice to know if there will be an new patch after 2.317 in which some of these proposals will be found.

and ffs fix firestorm xD

[Splitmonkey]

Stormtroopers were deemed op before opposing fronts so i have no doubt relic will eventually nerf commandos.

[Painmuffin]

A moving accuracy wouldn't do anything. Pop smoke and appear withing a squad. Dead Storms

[Thinking42Man]

Commandos need to cost more to reinforce, because even in the beta its a no-brainer to get commandos over tommies, unless you need brens to button, and even then it's better for the better part of the game to just get a Bren Carrier for that purpose.

[rifleman]

Increase Commando reinforce Cost to 43 ManPower (50% of Build Cost). They can't have the same reinforce cost with Tommies (35MP). They are ' s p e c i a l ' units, they can't cost the same with the regular troops.

[DrunkenBrawler]

Increase Commando reinforce Cost to 43 ManPower (50% of Build Cost). They can't have the same reinforce cost with Tommies (35MP). They are ' s p e c i a l ' units, they can't cost the same with the regular troops.

Why can't they? Yes, they're good, but they have downsides tommies doesn't have. They're not like tommies just better, they're different. They already had plenty of things nerfed this patch, and for a lot of reasons slight nerfs (Blizzard-style) is the way to go, or you may risk fucking more stuff up. The patch should go live as it is now, and then we can all test the changes for a couple of months, Relic can check of the stats of played games and so on.

[DrCloud]

They're not like tommies just better, they're different
Sorry, but I don't really buy this.

Once you can get Commandos, I can't really see any point in getting Tommies. Maybe I'm missing something, but hey. They have identical armour and health, their costs aren't particularly different, and while Tommies get a couple of arguably useful things that Commandos don't (bren & button up, the ability to build a few more structures that are probably not very useful by that point in the game), Commandos get free magic smoke, grenades, demo charges and, perhaps most importantly, the ability to run around at a decent speed in enemy territory without having a lieutenant traipsing along behind.

Pretty sure that Commandos rip through infantry at a far quicker rate too. I'm just... not seeing the drawbacks here?

[Thinking42Man]

Relic can check of the stats of played games and so on.

Unfortunately, they can't check the stats based on which support/company/doctrine/tactic was used.

[Nomad_Wanderer]

Yes, they're good, but they have downsides tommies doesn't have.


Please elaborate these 'downsides'. Now that the bren has button up, I don't see any reason to build tommies for any other reason than rifle grenades... And rifle grenades isn't really that great a reason either.. I could build other units that can do what rifle grenades can do.

[ChocoboKnight88]

Please elaborate these 'downsides'. Now that the bren has button up, I don't see any reason to build tommies for any other reason than rifle grenades... And rifle grenades isn't really that great a reason either.. I could build other units that can do what rifle grenades can do.
1: Infantry Sections can fight at longer ranges. This makes them better defenders and trench occupiers. Their Bren Guns also provide much better firepower than the Sten, when defending. Commandos can only fight properly at close range.

2: They can build Vickers Nests and Mortar Pits to secure territory and support their advance. Commandos only have Trenches.

3: Infantry Sections also take longer for a tank or Panzershreck to kill than a Bren Carrier, so Button Up is more powerful on an Infantry Section. Let's not forget that a Bren Carrier loses it's ability to button when upgraded with a Vickers MMG.

4: Their Rifle Smoke Grenades also provide valuable cover when helping a Sapper Section build defences. Smoke for Commandos only benefits themselves, in my experience.

5: The Recon Section's Line of Sight is great for scouting and aiding artillery. They are also good for countering Snipers and can detect Mines (Although not as good as Detection and Disposal Sections. Commandos can neither detect mines or have a chance of spying on the enemy unseen.

Commandos are good at what they do, but I still see Infantry Sections as very viable. I use Infantry Sections all the time. Although they do have their limits. I'd be able to put them to better use, if I had a mobile reinforcement point that works in enemy territory. But I don't. I guess that's the price I pay for quality main stray infantry.

[Splitmonkey]

Too bad every other british player chooses commandos as they can kill any unit with legs 2 times over.

[EroticCompany]

"Commandos are easy to deal with. Get Armor. No way in hell when commandos first come down the brit will have fireflies and commandos. PIAT's are laughable..."
Yes, I agree! When a british player has 3 CPs, Axis player should have armors ready. I was forced to pick Royal engineer a couple of times to come up with tanks to battle with P.E PIV. Using Piat with bren gun tommy is risky and no gurantee I can kill the tank without heavy loss of my infantries.

[nichtganz]

Same thing happens with schreked infantry. you have to expect losses, if you dont, then im afraid this isnt the game for you.

[Dryden]

its just that 1 Tommy-squad with Brens and Button and 1 Sapper with PIATs costs similar to 3 Gren-squads with 1 shreck each. And compare the effectiveness/micro involved...

[nichtganz]

Infantry sections cost 450mp that is the difference.

[Ano2]

1: Infantry Sections can fight at longer ranges. This makes them better defenders and trench occupiers. Their Bren Guns also provide much better firepower than the Sten, when defending. Commandos can only fight properly at close range.


Actually this isn't true. To take out a trench with inf you need flamers or inc nades- only things that reliably work. Both of these require you to get close range, where commandos rip them to shreds.

[Brother Glacius]

Deployment. That is my biggest issue with commandos. I think it is too good. I am fine with what commandos do, but I think Relic has seriously goofed in terms of balancing how they get on the field.

My issues with their deployment:
1) no warning prior to landing
2) entire squad pops out at once (meaning damage output is high right from start)
3) Fog of War does not affect deployment
4) if glider destroyed, unit does not deploy

Compare these guys to US paratroopers:
1) green smoke marks drop
2) squad falls over time
3) vulnerable to being shot in the air
4) must have LOS to drop zone

Quite simply, point 4 for the commandos does not offset the other three. Honestly, only specialized units have a shot at taking out a glider.

My suggestions are to modify how the commandos deploy to make them more balanced as opposed to changing the unit itself. Basically, give the axis a bit more time to respond and people won't bitch about them so much.

1) mark the landing area with smoke
2) commandos appear one man at a time, one per second. This means a full 6 seconds for the whole squad to appear. Any that don't make it out before glider is destroyed are lost.
3) add a reasonable scatter if deployed within fog of war. If you don't have proper intel, they shouldn't be landing spot on.

I think if those three items were implemented, then commandos wouldn't be seen as such a OP unit. The axis would actually have a chance to respond a bit. By slowing down the deployment of the men, you make dropping it in the middle of the enemy a bit dangerous..as it should be. Adding in the scatter makes it more risky for behind the lines drop. A bad scatter could result in a wrecked glider, or simply delaying getting them where you really want them.

I don't mind how lethal they are, but I do mind how quickly and how accurately they are deployed which prevents me from any sort of counter-action.

***** Brother Glacius

[HellToupee]

Actually this isn't true. To take out a trench with inf you need flamers or inc nades- only things that reliably work. Both of these require you to get close range, where commandos rip them to shreds.

well for a trench to be a threat in the first place you need long range firepower, smgs in a trench can just be avoided.

[Ano2]

nah the idea of a trench is that it is positioned by something you want to protect/the enemy want. Force the enemy to counter it. Flamers ain't getting near commandos in trench.

[rendari]

nah the idea of a trench is that it is positioned by something you want to protect/the enemy want. Force the enemy to counter it. Flamers ain't getting near commandos in trench.


Not true. Flamers have extremely long range (more than they should have IMO, but w/e). I just got out of a game where I torched a commando squad in a trench with 2 Pio Flamer squads. Only one Casualty.