(2.300) Panzer Jaeger Command Building

[sighman]

I think even the most hardened Panzer Elite players can agree that fast MP44s and cheap ACs are probably the worst thing to happen to any American player. Lets look at the reasons why:

- At the point of the game these issues first appear they have no proper anti-vehicle solution. Even when teching straight to motorpool, its impossible to get out a M8 by the time an AC has already done its job or that of the STG44 has done.

- MP44 grenadiers rushing towards a rifleman squad in green cover will usually mean a win for the PG squad. There is no counter to this then for the American player to get WSC early on to supplement the rifles, but that means additional Fuel which hurts teching slightly, destroying their ability to take on an upcoming AC (BTW this is not an assumption because any competent PE player WILL do this). But more importantly, this will gravely affect the number of units Americans will be able to get because that 180+ 340 (or 240) will hurt as you will have a restricted capping power (~1 rifleman squad with 1-2 engineers) .

Since both of these issues come from the same building, I believe that the cost of such a building should be increased somewhere between 10-15 fuel.

[Vintage]

I disagree. Fast MP44s are easy to deal with. 3 man MP44 squads get cut down very easily by BARs. If he rushes straight for Armored cars after he rushed for MP44s he will have virtually no AT of any sort and this leaves him with a gaping hole to be exploited.

[sighman]

Are you joking about BARs? They cost 60 Fuel and any competent PE player will then just get AC to flank and kill your BARs. This means no M8 will attack the AC.

Now, look at this from the American perspective, even lets say you don't go BARs, and duke it out vanilla rifles against vPG, that would allow you to go fast tech to motorpool. You get your M8 most likely 1-2 minutes later then an AC, assuming you have the same fuel as the PE player. In that 1-2 minute window, they can effectively deny your main rifleman squads any capping power, and infact on larger maps, chase and kill your squads, while you have what, engineers?

[shadowolfe]

I agree with vintage, BARS work wonders with the PE.

[jackmccrack]

How do BARs fare against Armored Cars?

[stingraywinston]

yes bars might do wonders to PE infantry but not to amoured cars though and stickies are out the question against a well micro'd player. Plus committing to bars against PE early on is usually a death sentence. cause you need to get dencent AT up incase on panzer infantry rush.

Only commit to bars once you know you have control of nearly all the fuel.



US vs PE is an up hill struggle, not sure now with the new patch but was b4.

[Vintage]

US vs PE really isn't as bad as your making it out to be. If you keep your rifles together and focus fire you cut down MP44s really fast. You can even outshoot armored cars. If you get a lone squad caught with it's pants down then it is going to die. If you group them when their is conflict you succeed.

[Melonplant]

Ah, the solution is blobbing!

Close the balance forum people, we have our answers!

Either the building needs a cost increase or armored cars need to have a fuel tag research or something. It's way too easy to get for the damage it does.

Getting bars early is always a death sentence unless your early game was infinitely superior to his. If that's the case, why not go weapon support center and build 5 mortars instead of bars? Because it really makes no difference if you dominate early game.

[Vintage]

So if I put multiple squads together to fight off multiple enemies I am blobbing? Cool. Looks like your one of those guys who disagrees with someone on the balance forums so you throw the word blobbing out to try and make me sound like an idiot. Please grow up.

Next time I'll send in one squad at a time because God forbid I am accused of blobbing.

[Zallis]

How about just making the PJ Command and... panzer support command, is it?... whatever. How about just making those two buildings require both the first buildings.

I get that PE teching is supposed to be flexible, and it's doing that fine right now. Except it's also insanely fast right now. So... make it so that you have your choice of 1 of the first 2 buildings from the start, but you have to get both. That will unlock the other two, and you can have your choice of which of thsoe buildings you can build first.

You still have flexibility in teching, but delays PE teching by 20 fuel. Better than increasing the fuel cost of the other two buildings, I think.

[sighman]

In the same way that the MP44s will have G43 support or even AC support because you can get MP44s supplied since it is not dependent on the usage of fuel after you get the building (MP44 take munitions, not using the fuels where you can use it for the AC). So, I don't see your point there as this rule applies to both the armies in which the PE will come out on top. Effectively, you are diverting from the issue that these weapons come out way too soon.

Besides, if you follow up on this strategy, you are cutting up your capping power because it takes time to get into the ideal position while the PE doesn't have to worry about it when they have units made solely for capping.

[sigrun]

Very few of you are looking at the overall picture.

The game is rock, paper scissors. Regardles of side, whichever strat path you take, you won't have an answer for EVERY move the opponent MIGHT make unless you have either completely intuitive foresight or stunning situational awareness. BARs cost 60 once and are universal. Stop whinging! PE has its own equally frustrating funding problems. Several US squads firing with BARs eat ACs for breakfast. PE can't be ALL AC - without significant risk and sacrifice - as AC can't cap.

MP44s are great, and what else can you use against cheap, early call in Rangers? BUT, their regaining control of the territory reign against US infantry spam is shortlived, for choosing that path and not moving on to 'shrecks or other necessities once you have a squad or two of them JUST sufficient to counter the US infantry hordes leaves PE without any hope of AT against the imminent arrival of M8s, and now deadly anti-infantry HT quads! And one has to be thinking ahead to the coming Sherman Croc which just toasts MP44s.

PE AT 'nades aren't a patch on US stickies. Stickies work well against all light armour if the US player knows what he's doing.

[Vintage]

Besides, if you follow up on this strategy, you are cutting up your capping power because it takes time to get into the ideal position while the PE doesn't have to worry about it when they have units made solely for capping.

They have a Ketten which can cap fast. The rest of their squads cap at a .75 capping rate. It takes them nearly a minute to cap a high point that is already owned by the enemy. PE capping isn't as fast as you think. It is a nightmare playing against a riflespammer once your ketten is dead. They will vastly out cap you with the Rifles far superior capping rate. 6 man bar squads > 3 man MP44 squads.

[GrIMDemon]

Yeah, Bars come out bit later then the Ac's so the damage is done. You can try and grab stickies but thats fuel there and you have to 1. use munitions and 2. actually get in range to stick and ANY Pe should know why riflemen are LEAVING cover to rush an AC.

Mp44's are not as bad but you are going to have a lot of Riflemen fielded to stop the Mp44s. The issue with this is that your start mass only riflemen and a mortar half track may be the next thing on the Pe list to build.......

[Panzer Jager]

It would be wise to increase the cost of Pz Jg and Pz Support by at least 5 fuel each, thus Panzer Elite players are given the choice of MP44s or Panzerschrecks for the same fuel cost after the first structure is up.

[Goobers]

Only if they have to build the first to structures first as well.

They still have the versatility, they can either go for Logistic or Kampfgruppe, and once those are built, they can go either Support or Jager. They can still chose where they go, they just get to it about the same time as every one else.


Personally, I think due to the fact that you don't have a strict teching order, it should cost you a bit more in the end to get everything because you benefit from the element of surprise.

[Znuff]

US doesnt have a strict teching order either. Are you suggesting that US tech costs should be increased as well? :ballchain

PE units arent ment to come out at the same time as everyone else. The PE AC are not match for the M-8. If you want the PE units to be delayed then the units need to be buffed to be on par with later units as well. :cop:

Buildings doesnt cost only fuel. It already costs as much manpower to tech to either PzIVIS or Marder III as it costs to get a TD for US. Getting both costs much more and you are suggesting a pretty large manpower increase ontop of that. :Police:

[MrFinsch]

PE armored car is the only armored car that takes real damage from gunfire. If you tech for an armored car you usually go for scout cars first since they cost no fuel and offer capping power. So you don't have schrecks or infantry halftracks.

You have about 3 minutes where you can do damage with your armored car, and since they get a lot of damage from gunfire you either spend a long time repairing or you call in luftwaffe ground forces for advanced repair. During this time you better prepare for the early M8. Either backtech to schrecks or spend 80 fuel for the first marder (which is a bad counter vs an M8) or tech for an AT-HT.
US gets a great advantage with the M8 and PE has a great advantage until this M8 arrives.
Combine this with the ton of capping power US has due to rifles, capping left and right while chasing down the ketten with a jeep.

[Dryden]

Znuff
USA tech cost is already much higher. They pay additional 50fuel just to be able to build MP\TD. And USA doesnt have shrecks in Barracks\WSC which could help to repel Mortar-HT which can be a nightmare when microed and doesnt have proper counters in early-mid game.

[Monkeypoop]

uhhh you realize bars get massive penalties against PG's right. They get hit with huge damage penalties (60%) on top of the accuracy penalties, plus the penalties from soldier armor

[Vintage]

And they still rock against PGs. They need these penalties considering PGs have lower health and smaller squads.

[larcat]

@Vintage. They don't have lower health, they do have smaller squads.

The fact remains for all of this, the PE player can get ACs and Shreks on the field both, before the US player gets an M8 out.

75 fuel for the first AC - 20 that you start with (use this on Kamphgruppe), 55 fuel for the first AC to hit the field. 35 fuel for tankbusters upgrade, 90 fuel into the game.

M8 comes into the game @ 140 fuel - 15 to start == 125 fuel for the first M8 to hit the field. Lets assume a fuel income of 20/min at that point, M8 comes out almost 2 minutes after the AC does, and you should be able to have 2 shreks if you've saved some muni.

[Jaigen]

@Vintage. They don't have lower health, they do have smaller squads.

you learn to go to coh-stats. he is quite right pg only have 55hp that is the same as rifleman. its their armor that gives them survivabilty that is on par with normal grenadiers

[Vintage]

3 man PG squad has 165 health, a 4 man has 220 after building the first building researching the upgrade and then reinforcing all of your squads currently on the field.

A Rifle squad starts with 330 health. This is why PGs need their armor and BARs have to be nerfed against them, even though BARs are still quite effective, but not overpowered against them.

[larcat]

Vintage--

Looking at it that way is essentially pointless.

If you want to see some numerical breakdown, look at the thread entitled "Riflemen reinforce..."

Rifles would be much stronger with 1 man per squad who had 330 HP, and three arms each wielding a weapon with the DPS of 2 Garands.

You are right that Vanilla PGs are pretty bad. Slap a G43 on there, and it owns rifles, BARed or not, in any reasonable ingame situation 1v1.

No one is saying that BARs should be as effective vs. PGs as they are vs. Volks. What people are saying is that BARs should be equally COMPARATIVELY effective to Garands vs PGs, which they aren't by about 20%.

[Demonic Spoon]

BARs get a damage penalty against regular infantry armor, too...that is why the penalties against soldier armor -seem- harsh.

[Checkmated]

I agree, the AC car is buffed too much now. Americans against PE now is mere luck, they will get AC, and you have to rush for M8, if you want to get M8 IN time (I really mean 1-2 mins after AC on the field) you won't have stickies, you won't have bars, you have NOTHING but a bunch of riflemens against a horde of assault rifle gren spam (which is deadly) and an AC.

The nightmare become worst when I chase the AC with my M8, its slightly faster than M8, and has nearly double HP of the M8 (without outskirt, which is ridiculous, M8=150, without outskirt, or 300 with outskirt, AC=288). Plus the M8 keep missing the AC, and the AC continue to stay and can kill all the riflesquad while your M8 having a hard time aiming the AC.

So basically, M8 + rifles ares owned by AC + assault rifle gren.

Don't talk about stickies! We know the story about kiting.
Bars won't do good against AC (no M8, if you goes BARS), without heavy casualties.

[Vexonian]

I can't believe people are saying BARs as an option to fight off MP44 equipped PGs. Perhaps you are thinking of the significant damage increase BARs get against the Wehr; against the Panzer Elite, this increase in damage is negligible. Besides, I'm not going to save up that 60 fuel to get BARs, I'm going to invest it in the 140 fuel needed to get M8s just to keep me in the game.

Suppressing the PG squad with BARs does nothing except allow them time to take a nice nap on the battlefield, get some rest, and either wait for another PG to kill that group of riflemen, or slightly waste their time to retreat and come back with a larger blob. And while I just wasted my 40 munis on that, he's just saved up for another MP44 or is only 10 munis away from a G43 which eat riflemen alive at range.

[larcat]

@ DemonicSpoon.

Yes, BARs have a penalty vs. regular infantry.

Right now the nerf they have vs. PGs is bigger than it should be though if we use their normal nerf vs. infantry as the benchmark.

They are about 20% less oomphful than they should be.

Totaly damage modifier is 30% vs PGs, while Garands are 60% vs. PGs.

Garands are 100% vs. normal infantry vs. 75% for BARs vs. normal infantry.

BARs are 50% cappier vs. PGs than Garands, while they should be 25% crappier vs. PGs than Garands.

[stingraywinston]

Personally if PE were made to build there first 2 buildings (logistic) and (kampcroft thing) before allowing to progress to later 2 it would balance the game out more slightly by 20 fuel.

[Panzer Jager]

Totaly damage modifier is 30% vs PGs, while Garands are 60% vs. PGs.

*Cough* 40% not 30.

[Yorick]

Sorry, what's the hangup with a WSC/Ranger start against PE? I don't normally play 1v1 and maybe kettens are a bigger deal there but my experience has been than MG/sniper combos against PGs can be supported by Rangers just about when the first ACs arrive.

Teching up to 4 man squads and recalling everybody to get the upgrade can take a while on larger maps.

[Hidersine]

This probably sounds really stupid, so just consider it for a second. Would it help if you swap the AC with the AT HT? that way you don't get the ultimate AC + Mp44 combo versus infantry. the only problem i could see with this is that it would put you AT options in one building and Anti-inf in another.

[Melonplant]

An AT HT is a really big hardcounter to the m8. Making it come out ~70 fuel before a m8 even shows up is probably not a good idea.

[Hidersine]

Fair enough and thank you for providing a constructive argument, but how is changing the build point of the anti-tank half track from the the panzer support to the panzer jager command making it less fuel? they both cost the same and require the same things?

maybe though, the anti-inf of the mp44's and the anti light of the At's might be a bit strong for that stage in the game. alternatively have the AT-HT and the MP44's swap places then you have two vehicles together, which would be easier to counter, while the panzer support would be purely anti-inf

I do think though that there needs to be more reason to build the panzer support command though, the way things are set the jager is always much more popular.

[sighman]

Not necessarily. You build PSC in particular cases where your opponent's build orders are predictable. Say for example, your opponent goes WSC first: in 90% of my games, they followed it up with a Rax, giving me a chance to tech to PIV IS, which is the hard counter to all these units. Or if your opponent goes BARs, you know he will only be able to go MP or WSC, of which, he can only use AT guns to effectively penetrate a skirted PIV IS, but which is easily flankable. It has its own risks though when the Allied players goes Barracks, his game plan will be ambiguous to you.

But, definitely, KKZ to PJC is the most flexible build order for the PE and it can take on any threat, not to mention that with the Pzshrk upgrade with AC is still less fuel then it takes to get to M8.

[UnholyX]

PE MP44 are too good and too easy to get.

1st to get them you should have to have more then just 2 building built. YOu should have to have all or 3 out of 4 building built.

2nd PG should not be able to upgrade to Mp44's. You should have to Buy the Assault Grens and the Assault grens should be Double pop Caped. Storms and KCH both can and get MP44's yet both of them are double poped Caped.

[Melonplant]

I have no beef with mp44s. Armored cars have to come out later. They could also do less damage to infantry, but I don't think thats in balance's best interest.

[larcat]

Mp44s aren't all that problematic.

If G43s and ACs weren't around, maybe MP44s would look nasty, but as it stands, against a US player the PE player doesn't have half an ounce of a reason to get them.

[Sn1tch]

But don't MP44's come at 40 fuel while BARs come at 60?

Even then, G43 spam is a lot better than MP44 spam. As you own Riflemen at long range and close range with G43's, they really do need an accuracy nerf at close range.

[Dryden]

MP44 alone would not be a trouble. BAR could counter them with certain micro.
Problem is when MP44 supported.
Mortar-HT, AC, Inf-HT, shrecks... USA just does not have cost-effective solution when its needed. Thus, USA player looses map control. As a result, when USA teches\works to solutions (quad\M8\AT\rangers\ABs) it is too late and PE already teched to even better options.
GG.

[stingraywinston]

The more you search the more that comes out before US. You must admit it really.
Cheaper teching for heavy hand weapons
Cheaper teching for anti tank.
Better callins for cheap prices and early.

I'll point out im not anti PE but to be honest im not a fan when it comes to playing them. Theres almost a sigh of relief when i see the wehr badge lol.
At least you know Wehr have to tech a bit harder.

[Melonplant]

Yeah i know. And right after you take down their garbage armored car rushes with your greyhounds, lolzhetzerz! click!

Time for some god awful AT guns and silly greyhound micro :(

[Goobers]

Come now, Anti-Tank Guns aren't so bad against PE. Except their only Tank can't be sticked to be stopped to be shot at, thus letting it circle strafe the Gun with impunity... oh, wait...