DoW2: Army Composition Speculation

[Kalledon]

Assume for the moment that the armies you want will be in DoW2. What units do you want to see. I know, as much as I love DoW, that some of the unit choices in it made me sad.

Space Marines
Tactical Marines - obviously these will be included, but the change I'd like to see involves basic vs. Veteran. In TT there is a slight difference between your normal Tacticals Marines and your Veterans. I'm don't think having two separate units would necessarily be worth it, but what they could do is if a Marine squad gets enough kills they get an option to upgrade to Veterans making them slightly stronger and more health.

Landspeeders - Give them weapon differences like the Typhoon and Tornado

Chapters - Before a match, players can pick what chapter they belong to (Ultramarine/Basic, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templar). This choice will give them certain special units. If the game has a army painter again, then SM would pick a chapter type based on the ones listed above for their customer chapter to use in game.

Ultramaine/Basic - As the regular army, they would have access to all normal troop types. Veteran units also receive increased stats over other chapter Veterans and can upgrade their Dreadnaught to a Venerable Dreadnaught in the same fashion
Blood Angels - Tactical Squads can upgrade to Death Company instead of Veteran. Dreadnaught can upgrade to Furioso class, Predator can upgrade to Baal class
Space Wolves - Librarian replaced with Rune Priest, Assault Marines replace by Storm Claws, but these may upgrade to Wolfen Pack in the same manner as Tactical upgrade to Veteran
Dark Angels - Terminators may upgrade to Deathwing in same manner as Tactical to Veteran, Land Speeders are faster and do more damage as they are part of the Ravenwing elite.
Black Templar - Librarian replaced with Emperor's Champion, Land Raider replaced by Land Raider Crusader


The other units currently included in DoW for SM are pretty good and I wouldn't change anything on them.

[dextra]

first off (regarding your dark angels): correct me if i'm wrong, but land speeders are already at 1 pop aren't they?
so reducing it by one means you can spam infinite. since this is total bs there would be a limit added to them and boom, we are back to the 1 pop (it doesn't matter if the land speeders have 1 vehicle pop or are hard capped at 20...)
kinda reminds me of the stupid hardcap on the barracuda xD


second (and more important): the different chapters/factions/whatever are already being discussed.
there are threads about dow2 having the same doctrine system as coh.
as mentioned in this threads i can only say that it would be incredible hard to balance additional factions.
even if there are only a few special units per race, because you would have to balance each sub-faction and we all know that the balance for the given races in ss isn't perfect, so adding more and more stuff would be suicide...

[Iwasfrozen]

Last night i was thinking of Dawn of War (I know I’m sad) :P
Any way I was thinking of ways the GM could be improved for DOW II and this is basically what i came up with.

ParaTroopers:
This is an ability researched from the Tactica Control and requires the Drop Centre.
It costs 50 Requisition and 10 Energy to research and takes 20sec's to be completed.
It also requires a Drop Centre to be built, this Drop Centre cost's 125 Requisition to be built, it's return value is 30 Requisition.
Once Completed this ability equips your GM and Karskins with parachutes and allows them to be Deep struck in an area of effect of 8.
The Drop Centre can hold 6 slots, Guardsmen take up 1 slot, Karskins take up 2.
Deep Striking takes 10sec’s and it takes 10sec’s to charge a unit that enters on foot.

I believe that this will make up for the fact that the IG has no teleporting units.

Trenches:
This isn’t my idea, in fact I saw it in the forum (I forget where :P) and thought it a good idea so I am bring it to your attention.
This will allow a Trench to be built in the ground via a beam from an Imperial Navy ship in space.
It costs 180 Requisition to be built but once built cannot be destroyed.
Only GM and attached Hero can take cover in the Trench and once in the Trench take 60% less damage to ranged fire.
However because they are in such a confined space they are easy pickings for CC units and attacks such as Orbital Bombardment or Eldritch Storm.
Each Trench can only hold one unit of GM so constant Reinforcement is necessary.

Over the Trenches:
Finally this is basically a suicide mission to you GM by their Commissar.
This ability can only be used on a GM squad with an attached Commissar stationed in the Trenches.
Basically it sends you whole squad minus Commissar and any other attached Commander over the trenches in an adrenaline fuelled bayonet charge.
One activated your Troops cannot be called back, cannot fire, and with the commissar aiming his pistol from the trenches cannot flee.
Once (if) they reach the enemy each bayonet dose 100% damage it usually dose.

Phew, well that’s a mouth full, please let me know what you think

[Edit another thing I would like to see is the GM more numerous maybe 8/12 and the SM less numerous maybe 2/6 but obviously the squads will be the same strength, this is only cosmetic to show the Elite V's the Mass, what do you think?]

[Kalledon]

Hmm...didn't realize about the landspeeder cap being 1. Could have sworn it was 2. But I'll edit. As to the chapters, we can always dream right?

[zuma]

Units I'd like to see:

SM- terminator chaplain, techmarine, devastator squads, razorback troop transport

IG- -baneblade variants (shadowsword, stormsword, stormblade)
-leeman russ demolisher

Eldar- warwalkers, wraithguard, phoenix lord

Orks- 'ard boyz, zzap gun, deth kopters, boar boyz

Chaos- icon bearer, chaos spawn, war bikes

[DeadlyFred]

All I can say is I hope Chaos has something besides bloody melee units.

[Kalledon]

Yeah for Chaos they need to add in things like Noise and Plague Marines. They might also want to give them access to Bikes to give them some more speed. They also need to make the army more daemony. I realize that daemons aren't as prevalent in 40K as they are in WHFB, but they are still an integral part of Chaos and DoW currently doesn't use that enough.

[DeadlyFred]

The "mark" system would be a great addition and could be used to include many more options without making things redundant or overpowered. You could gain access to a unique commander as well as a summoned daemon appropriate to your mark and whatever other niceties they could fit in.

Slaanesh - Noise Marines / Daemonettes
Nurgle - Nurglings / Plague Marines

et al

I kinda liked the sentiment in another post that Chaos could deserve an entire expansion devoted to it alone! :D

[Kalledon]

I would also hope that if they give Chaos marks, then they'd give SM chapters, or vice versa. They'd operate under similar principles and as long as you kept the unit changes under the system minimal per chapter/mark, it wouldn't be that hard to balance.

[DeadlyFred]

Well, Chapters are kinda different.. they're more like individual personalities. They could probably break it down into a choice of general combat doctrines to get you access to specific tech trees and upgrades. Fast Strike, Assault, Seige, etc. Though I guess Chapter rules works on TT, though its funny to be playing a "Blood Angels" Chapter thats not the Blood Angels.

[Tseng_Fox]

Inqusition

four doctrines: Ordo Malleus, Ordo Hereticus, Ordo Xenos and Adeptus Arbites.

Base Units

Inqusitor + Retinue:

The main HQ choice in the game. Has several abilites to boost troop morale. Retinue can increase the stats of the Inqusitior depending on whats in. (eg. Add a crusader and the inqusitior will take less damage. Add a cherbium to gain morale back quickly)

Inqusitiorial Stormtroopers:

Basic Tier 1 unit. Used mainly as basic infrantry before deciding on a doctrine. If "Adeptus Arbites" doctrine is chosen, gains a slight increase in damage as it scales up.

Priest:

Commander unit. Can be equiped to squads to boost morale and increase damage. Can use an ability to increase the damage done by the squad. If "Adeptus Arbites" doctrine is chosen then the Priests gives a further boost to squad damage.

Missionary:

Commander unit. Boosts morale when equiped to a squad. Gains several Act of Faith abilities if the "Ordo Hereticus" doctrine is chosen.

Acro-Flaggullents:

Bezerker infrantry. Used for assualting the enemy base.

Pentient Engine:

Assualt walker. Used for assualting the enemy base.

Confessor:

Secondary HQ unit. If "Adeptus Arbites" Doctrine is chosen, then Confessor gives a massive boost to squad attack. If "Ordo Hereticus" is chosen, then a massive boost to squad defense. If "Ordo Malleus" is chosen, then a massive boost to squad morale. If "Ordo Xenos" is chosen, then squads gain a small increase to their maximum HP until it reaches a predetermined limit.

Inqusitorial Rhino:

Main transport unit. Equiped with a heavy bolter.

Doctrine specific stuff

Ordo Malleus

Doctrine focuses around attacking the enemy with heavy assualts while making sure squads are at full strength by preventing morale breaking.

Grey Knights Squad:

Heavy infrantry. Limited number of squads may be present but they deal a large amount of damage and have high morale.

Grey Knights Terminator:

Heavy Infrantry. Only a single squad may be fielded. Very high damage and very high morale. Can Teleport.

Grey Knights Dreadnaught:

Walker. Can be equiped with heavy bolters or heavy plasma cannon.

Repent Sinner!:

Reasearch. Grey Knights squads get a small boost to maximum HP and Morale.

Carry the Holy Light:

When sent into enemy controlled territory Grey Knights units gain a boost in damage delt to enemy units. Inqusitorial units gain a boost to maximum morale.

Holy Armageddon:

Costs: XX amount of resouces

Instanly breaks all enemy squads in a enemy controlled territory.

Ordo Hereticus

Focuses mainly on defense. Has access to many "Faith" abilites that can turn the tide of battle in the Sisters favor.

Sisters of Battle Squad:

Heavy infrantry. Starts with bolters but can upgrade to flamers. Have high morale.

Celestian Squad:

Faithful unit. Generates "faith" to use on faith abilites. Starts with bolters but can upgrade to Meltagun or Multi-melta.

Exorcist Artillery Tank:

Long range artillery tank. Can use Hunter-Killer missiles.

By the might of the Holy Emperor...:

Reasearch. Unlocks "Faith" abilites to be used by certain units.

Burn the Heretic!:

All player and allied structures gain heavy flamer turrets.

Our life for the Emperor!:

Calls in a "Living Saint"

Ordo Xenos

focuses on picking up enemy weaponary to increase the arsenal and variety of weapons so that the player may take advantage of any weakness of the enemy.

Deathwatch Marines:

Special Marines chosen for Deathwatch. Heavy infrantry. Can use weapons of infrantry they kill. (eg. after the squad survives killing a Guardian squad they may change their bolters for the enemies "Shuriken Catapault")

Deathwatch Xenobiologist:

May be attached to squads. While attached to a "Deathwatch" squad, the squad gains a boost to their maximum hitpoints for each time they kill an enemy.

Deathwatch Land Raider:

Heavy Tank. can transport units and be upgraded with any enemy captured weaponary.

Get me a specimen!:

Boosts Attack power of enemy weaponary used by "Deathwatch" units.

Kill the Xeno!:

Boosts defense of Inqusitorial Units.

Grand Schemes:

All Inqusitorial Veichles may be Upgraded with Enemy weapons that have been captured.

Adeptus Arbites

Doctrines focuses around the Adeptus Arbites, elite police force commonly called apon by the Inqusition. Weak, but able to mass forces easily.

Adeptus Arbites Squad:

Low damage but high squad size. Equiped with shotguns.

Adeptus Arbites Repressor:

Calls in a Repressor tank. Unit is equiped with a heavy bolter and can carry a squad of arbites.

Adeptus Arbites Special Forces:

elite squad. Can carry several different grenades and the ability to build bunkers. Carrys shotguns and can upgrade to bolters or flamers.

We need Reinforcements!:

Costs: XX resources.

Call in a either 3 random Adeptus Arbites squads or 2 Repressor tanks.

Obey the law!:

Increases the Squad size and maximum hitpoints of the Adeptus Arbites squads.

Final Act:

Costs: XX resources

The targeted area is showered in saturation bombing from various bomber aircraft.

These are all basic ideas. Each Doctrine adds 3 special units to the unit list. I havent decided on what I think would be appropriate unit costs for each. I think armies would look something like this in DoW2

[Kalledon]

Nice ideas Tseng. I think it's also interesting that a lot of what is being suggested seems to revolve around armies have both a core choice and then limited path choices depending on what path you pick for the army.

[Tseng_Fox]

I think its the most logical way. IG and Orks also follow this style pretty well.

Orks (Im not too sure on their fluff so I made need to be corrected) could have a doctrine focused on "looting" the enemy's remains of units. (Weapons from infrantry and destroyed veichles with lots of ways for "orky" customistion once they are repaired). A WAAAAGGGH!!! doctrine that focuses around increased resources and reduced unit build times. Allows for Orky Artillery and units that generally hurt everything big time including allied units.

Possible special units for Orks could be: Death Koptas, Weirdboyz, Big Mek, Tank busta' squad, Squiggoth, Fight-Bomma(only for bombing runs), Grot Swarm, Slugga Swarm.

IG could have Mechanised Company. Which allows for lots more customistation on their tanks as well as boosts to their attack and defense. Also would have a Hold the Line doctrine focused on defending. It would allow guardsmen to build Mines, Tank Traps, Bunkers, Trenches, Anti-tank turrets, Tank Bunkers, Sandbags, concrete walls and more defenses. Finally, they could have a Overdrive doctrine focused on heavy assualts. Would increase the number of Stormtroopers and Ogryn and increase the boosts given by Commanders.

Possible Units: All variants of the Leman Russ tanks (made by upgrading the original), Hydra, Griffion Mortar tank, Ogryn Squad, Baneblade, Ratling Squad.

In my opinion, its getting the balance of not adding too many units to the army list and not adding too few. Also, its important to make sure the units added and the research matches the "theme" of the doctrine.