[SS 1.0] Of Tau and Listening Posts

[Jaimas]

I was playing Dark Eldar today, and I came to a rather irksome revelation. Earlier, I noticed that Dark Eldar, much like Tau, did not get any sort of turrets. In exchange, the Dark Eldar have very powerful Listening Posts that can be upgraded with heavy offensive weapons, which both made sense and was pretty cool.

The problem arose when I was looking at the Tau LP3 recently. The Tau get no turrets, so LP2s and LP3s are a defensive component. The issue is that in addition to the LP being fragile - which is acceptable given the Tau in general - the LP3 has extremely weak overall damage compared to other LP3s, which backed with its slow refire rate and relatively poor accuracy, makes the Tau LP3 a truly horrid deal.

Only the IG LP3 is worse, by way of not being an upgrade at all weapon-wise.

Whilst the Tau LP3 has been mentioned before many times, the time has come to give this structure serious analysis. It has a Railgun, and it makes absolutely no sense that it does so much less damage than other LP3s.

Hell, with the Dark Eldar as a precedent, it could be said that the Tau deserve the best all-rounder LP3 of all since they can't get turrets and their LP3s aren't very durable.

Discuss. :wave:

[Skif]

Totally agree. Tau have nowhere to retreat to, if need be, because their LP2 is as bad as their LP3. Enemy can dance around it all day, seems that all those flashy beams are just for decoration... That's depressing in some MU's (

[DeadlyFred]

First question to answer is not "are their turrets underpowered" but rather "do the Tau still function regardless of this?"

I'd have to say a resounding yes, especially with the addition of the Barracuda and the new rapid-sniper Broadsides.

[Skif]

Cuda and broads are T2. What are going to do early game, if the enemy forces all your units to dance and none can deal actual damage? Right, dance around an LP2! Oh, wait, I'm Tau... it sucks to be me.

[Slow_Runner]

LP3s, the topic of the thread, aren't exactly T1 either.

[Skif]

Well, yes, but I sorta extended the problem to LP2 also in my post... And Fred mentioned "turrets", not exactly LP3.

[White_Pointer]

What are going to do early game, if the enemy forces all your units to dance and none can deal actual damage? Right, dance around an LP2! Oh, wait, I'm Tau... it sucks to be me.

That's what snare traps are for.

White_Pointer

[Skif]

True. But I am not confinced, that traps is a replacement for LP2, and not an addition.
They traps cost power...

[Merker]

You haven't actually provided any proof for your arguement Tau LP2 maybe fine they're a different weapon.


First question to answer is not "are their turrets underpowered" but rather "do the Tau still function regardless of this?"

I'd have to say a resounding yes, especially with the addition of the Barracuda and the new rapid-sniper Broadsides.

Exactly.

Tau actually have flavor becuase they rely on units and not fixed positions. Since they work and all their units work well why fix something which makes them like the "fluff" - no fixed emplacements.

In general lp3 stink unless you play SM or CSM as they just don't have enough hp to last in tier 2+ vs pretty much anything. So unless you're pushing for a general increase to lp3 hit points for all races I disagree.

M

[MoschBoy]

Tau actually have flavor becuase they rely on units and not fixed positions. Since they work and all their units work well why fix something which makes them like the "fluff" - no fixed emplacements.
however, this makes tau and DE really shitty in FFA - any opposition will just walk over LP3 and do some happy base raping; not to talk about infiltrated ranged units. however, in team games and 1vs1, i havent noticed any effects of the weak tau LP3 on the game.

[ViS]

The Tau LP2 isn't a problem. However, the craptastic LP3 IS. The LP2's damage output is fine for its tier.

[DeadlyFred]

Sorry, it was like 6 in the morning. Turret, listening post... if we're talking about Tau I'd think you can figure out what I meant. :D

[ImmortalChaos]

There are some obvious imbalances in every single LP3.

First of all, most of them suck - a lot. The only ones I have noticed being particularily awsome are SM and CSM ones, which are actually freaking amazing and probably a much better investment than a turret if you are in that teir.

Solution: Make sure that all LP3s actually match their cost with effectiveness, or reduce them all to be minor improvements over LP2s but with lower cost than current.

Secondly, all LP3s are mis-matched as to where they are in the tech tree. Ork LP3s are T3. SM LP3s are in T2. This is sick and wrong. While the ork LP3 is actually fairly decent (the only rocket in the game to do great infantry and vehicle damage) it is still dumb to have them in different teirs.

Solution: Make all LP3s T2, or make all LP3s T3.

[bman3k]

There are some obvious imbalances in every single LP3.

First of all, most of them suck - a lot. The only ones I have noticed being particularily awsome are SM and CSM ones, which are actually freaking amazing and probably a much better investment than a turret if you are in that teir.

Solution: Make sure that all LP3s actually match their cost with effectiveness, or reduce them all to be minor improvements over LP2s but with lower cost than current.

Secondly, all LP3s are mis-matched as to where they are in the tech tree. Ork LP3s are T3. SM LP3s are in T2. This is sick and wrong. While the ork LP3 is actually fairly decent (the only rocket in the game to do great infantry and vehicle damage) it is still dumb to have them in different teirs.

Solution: Make all LP3s T2, or make all LP3s T3.
I don't think that would work out well, I always thought that SM and CSM LP3's were stronger because in general their armies were less mobile (watch a tac squad waddle across a map) compared to fastarmies like eldar or long range ones like tau. Most regular Ork buildings already have a gun, which makes their base very hard to harass early game I don't think they need a T2 LP3.

[ImmortalChaos]

SM and CSM have rhinos which make them some of the most moble armies in the game.

I dont see why LP3s being fair would cause balance problems in your mind.

[War-Reborn]

I agree with Immortal here

I had a quick a look at the wiki are those tau LP number right? seems the LP3 is doing less dmg to some armours than a LP2? that certainly should no be right, all LP3's should equal or exceed the LP2 Dps values, it is supposed to be a heavier fortification upgrade after all

[bman3k]

I dunno guys... I like it how SM have an IMBA LP3...

Just kidding, I guess it makes more sense for them to buff some of them, perhaps not make the equal. Some like IG and Tau definitely need a buff in damage.

[Jaimas]

In total agreement with Immortal, and the Tau LP3 is an example of why this needs to happen. A bit of care needs to be exercised for reasons obvious, but races that are reliant on LPs for Base defense, like the Tau and Dark Eldar frankly need better LPs for this exact reason.

Also, it's rather daft that IG has the weakest LP3 in the game when they're supposed to be a defensive-minded race, but that's neither here nor there right now. :headphone:

[Vytae]

First a few facts: Turrets are not a substitue for an army,they will not stop an army from leveling your base.

Turrets are mainly useful in early tiers to supplement other squads or lps when armies are small and every req counts.

Tau already have a fairly awesome and mobile tier 1,so good in fact it was nerfed back to reason. Early tau armies would be ridiculous on the defensive with FW/TC range and vespid bounce behind a turret.
There is no way they could not be imba without signifigant nerfing of FW.

As for tau lp3s,their actually not that bad and can 2-3 shot a posse marine for instance. Some of their numbers are a little wonky though,which is mainly due to lack of testing. I would NOT agree with a buff to tau lp3s,but an evening of the dps numbers (93.3 dps to building low? lolz) which would be an inadvertant buff of a sorts.

Quite frankly all lp3s arent worth it except for CSM/SM which are what t3 lp3s should be.

[ImmortalChaos]

So why not buff all LP3s to SM/CSM levels?

I can see no race gaining some uber overpowering turtle teching strats because of this. LP3s could even be all moved to T3 to prevent such a thing from happening.

[jpsc949]

You know SS is pretty balanced when the only thing Jaimas has to complain about is Crisis regen rates and Tau LP2/3s.

DE lp3s are worthwhile as well btw... they provide lots of extra resources :D

I think this issue is insignificant personally, nobody gets LP3s for their damage do they? Seriously by the time you can afford them your opponent has an army that can stomp them in seconds. Maybe if balance was perfect in every regard aside from this one it'd make the difference.

[ImmortalChaos]

It's always bothered me that LP3s are rather unbalanced and unused. IMO it would just add another layer to the T2-T3 game that while situational, could be an interesting change.

I am against turtle teching however, and I don't think I'd like to see an LP3 being used by ay race to camp into T3, so I'd have to leave my final idea LP2 changes to:

-All LP3s changed to match their cost in effectiveness! This is idealy about 70-80 DPS to their prefered target!
-The anti all ones would obviously do less damage to both but obviously do good damage to both!
-Anti vehicle ones would probably have to be made to semi counter infantry as well because LP3s are too expensive for an AV only turret.
-LP3s should also significantly buff the HP of the post to about 4000 HP of building_low!
-Range should also be increased to about 35!
-Cost should be about 250/150 (possibly getting to the 300/200 range because these things are going to pwn)!
-None should be available untill T3! This prevents using leftover T1 units and a T2 LP3 to tech to T3.

[Jaimas]

You know SS is pretty balanced when the only thing Jaimas has to complain about is Crisis regen rates and Tau LP2/3s.

It is, indeed, balanced better than DC. The difference is that, IG issues aside, I'm dissecting other issues piecemeal, so that they can get the issues they deserve - and focusing heavily on internal balance so people have more options.

Later this week I plan to bring up Crisis Suit weapon imbalance (specifically the viability of its various systems), SM Terminator Melee capacity, and so on. Current projects in the field include the IG "Let's finish the remaining balance issues/bugs so we can declare the Imperial Guard a finished race and Jaimas needs never bitch about it again" thread, the Tier-4 Balance thread (in which Relic Units and Pop Caps are discussed), and most recently the thread on Tau Research.

Internal balance makes for better games. This is law.


It's always bothered me that LP3s are rather unbalanced and unused. IMO it would just add another layer to the T2-T3 game that while situational, could be an interesting change.

I am against turtle teching however, and I don't think I'd like to see an LP3 being used by ay race to camp into T3, so I'd have to leave my final idea LP2 changes to:

-All LP3s changed to match their cost in effectiveness! This is idealy about 70-80 DPS to their prefered target!
-The anti all ones would obviously do less damage to both but obviously do good damage to both!
-Anti vehicle ones would probably have to be made to semi counter infantry as well because LP3s are too expensive for an AV only turret.
-LP3s should also significantly buff the HP of the post to about 4000 HP of building_low!
-Range should also be increased to about 35!
-Cost should be about 250/150 (possibly getting to the 300/200 range because these things are going to pwn)!
-None should be available untill T3! This prevents using leftover T1 units and a T2 LP3 to tech to T3.

ABSOLUTE WIN.

[corncobman]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't LP3 weapons all range 35 currently?

[Jaimas]

IG's doesn't. :P

[corncobman]

The weapon is. Even if the LP3 doesn't currently use it. :P

[Marinealver]

I think they wanted the Tau to be restricted on base defense since the Tau technally dose not fight protractive static battles.

[ImmortalChaos]

That's why they don't have any turrets or mines.

[Gerrymanders]

I don't think all LP3s (or LP2s) should be equal, far, far from it, especially considering some are cheaper/more expensive for a reason. Anything at all that makes the races all seem the same should be chucked out the window IMO. Don't get me wrong, I love balance but can we not end up with a old C&C game here? Race. Flavor. A little something to be said for it at least. No same LP3s across the board.

Personally to adjust for the difference in damage, I'd buff the Tau LP3s range... yes less damage but much farther range. Fits with the whole Tau thing.

[Jaimas]

...But it does less damage to many armor types than the LP2.

[Makenshi]

Later this week I plan to bring up (...) SM Terminator Melee capacity

Make the thread about Termies as as whole, so that their useless heavy flamer can be taken into the equation. I know there's a thread about it already, but so far it seemed to me more like a colection of poor sugestions - and it's about the heavy flamers alone, with no concern for their melee applications.

[Guardian X]

I've been a longtime proponent of Tau turrets, and have adamantly argued for their inclusion to plug the massive hole that is immobile Tau Base Defense.

While improving the LPs of the Tau is only a stopgap measure, it is still a step in the right direction.

[War-Reborn]

Make the thread about Termies as as whole, so that their useless heavy flamer can be taken into the equation. I know there's a thread about it already, but so far it seemed to me more like a colection of poor sugestions - and it's about the heavy flamers alone, with no concern for their melee applications.

Thats a harsh assesment of that thread, it's actually been quite a success in my opinion with strong agreement on the key fact that flamers suck, the patch/balance team are going to be the ones who decide on what kind of fix if any get's implemented, it's there job to make the changes and come up with the right fixes, were just here to highlight the problems and offer up a suggested solution.

But if you can't even reach agreement on if there's a problem in the first place, it's pretty unlikely it's going to get much attention, big general threads tend to promote a lot of disagreement about everything, keeping to specific problems like flamers or CC alone is a much better way of getting agreement around a problem, even if you can't later reach agreement of a suggested solution, which is the less important of the two IMO, since fixes will potencially require proper playtesting & that can't really be realistically done here that part of the job is really for the patch team to sort out