Chaos in DOW 2 [Archive] - Relicnews Forums

ChaosReigns

30th Mar 08, 11:18 AM

Well, personally I'd like to see a god-themed army, rather than another go with Chaos Undivided.

However, I will say this. The 4th edition Chaos Space Marines codex are ALL CSM. There are no daemons except for generic "Lesser Daemons" and generic "Greater Daemons" which are NOT god specific. Furthermore there are no Cultists of any description (whereas Cultists were present as a unit unique to the Alpha Legion in the last codex). There no longer are any various Chaos Marine factions, there's only one army list for all CSM.

GW is also in the process of splitting Daemons and CSM into two DISTINCT factions completely seperate from one another.

I would love to see LatD, but I don't think that's realistic either, as GW is in the process of phasing them out of 40k.

If GW only let's Relic use official races, which would be Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons, I really hope Relic goes with the Daemons. There's really nothing left to explore with CSM. Their new edition is very similar to what we have in DoW now. All that's left to add are the Cult Marines, Chaos Dreadnoughts and Chaos Vindicators. That's pretty much all we're missing at the moment. That's basically how the new Chaos Marines codex plays, just one army list. Needless to say the options for a god specific army are pretty limited.

I'm not sure CSM are the way to go this time, although I'll reserve judgement until I hear what Relic plans to do with these guys.

EDIT: I can also see Chaos Daemons being included from a marketing perspective. They're being released this May, so GW might try to get Relic to promote them by including them in DoW2

Iwasfrozen

30th Mar 08, 11:27 AM

I would like to see a god system, with Nurgle for example you would have Chaos Marines in their green armour but also a "special" Chaos Marine type (For Nurgle Plauge Marines.)

@li3n

30th Mar 08, 11:34 AM

Chaos could have 5 subfactions in all: 1 for each God and 1 undivided... it could even work in Dow 1 by replacing Horrors, Berserkers and the Bloodthirster with the other god specific units... (Tzeentch = Rubric Marines/Changer; Slaanessh = Daemonettes/ Noise Marines/Keepers; Khorne = Bloodletters; Nurgle = Plaguebearers/Plague Marines/Unclean).

But for DoW 2 they could also implement Chaos Marks, with Undivided having acces to all the god specific units (but using the same hard cap, so no 2 relic units etc) but not having access to the more powerful Marks of Chaos of specific deities (4 balance).

And am i the only one that dislikes the fracturing of Chaos into CSM, LatD and Daemon armies?! IMO the Chaos Codex should include all of them with the players being allowed to choose what the army is composed of.

Steel*Faith

30th Mar 08, 11:56 AM

Chaos is proabably the most diverse army in WH40k, other than maybe the Imperium itself. In order for Chaos to get the depth and attention it needs, they should really have an expansion dedicated to them, similar to WA was dedicated to IG.

I'm not a "Chaos Fan" but I like all the races in 40k, and I want to see the ultimate villans (Chaos) done right, and done better & differently than they were in DOW 1.

Personally I think they should either go with a LATD army, with CSM & Daemons as elite choices in later tiers, OR, let players choose early on which Chaos god they wish to follow. It should be traitor guard in the first tiers then lesser daemons, and mutants in the next tier (mutant ogryn), followed by CSM & Greater Daemon units in the last.

I want to see the powers of Chaos play more of a role in DOW 2, and not just SM units with different skins. That means Chaos Spawns, and customizing your squads with "Gifts of Chaos". So giving your troops mutations and abilities to each squad member. Also Chaos vehicles, but instead of a Chaos dreadnaught having a flamer, it has daemonic tentacles that can attack several units at a time, or a long daemonic arm with a mouth that spits daemonic flame or bile.

Chaos Vehicles and Troops have potential for huge amounts of customization and could be the most interesting army to use in the game, instead of DOW's most boring.

grendizer

30th Mar 08, 12:07 PM

No way chaos has to be in an expansion. There's nothing special about races in an expansion and nothing special is done for them. Chaos won't benefit with more options or depth from being in an expansion so i don't see this interest on chaos not included on the original game.

Death to the emperor. If we can't say this on the vanilla dow2, meh :crazy:

The Witchking

30th Mar 08, 4:41 PM

Quote:
...could be the most interesting army to use in the game, instead of DOW's most boring.

necrons have no tactics...therfore they are the most boring

Versian

30th Mar 08, 9:12 PM

How is Chaos Boring? Ever heard a Khorne Berzerker?

{OGS}Sirius

30th Mar 08, 9:21 PM

I want the ability to warp the terrian, i mean really warp it. Turn trees into deamons, water into lava etc. IT would make some nice effects.

Versian

30th Mar 08, 9:29 PM

Ok, to be serious, I'd like to see the 9 different legions in Chaos. Each just like it supposed to be. They have generic units such as Standard Chaos Space Marines, but each legion has it's own "alternative" normal troop (World Eaters = Berzerkers, Death Guard = Plague Marines, Emperor's Children = Noise Marines, etc.), different lesser deamons, different elite units (variations of Possesed Marines, for example, World Eater Possesed = strong melee unit, Night Lords Possessed have Deamonic Flight, Iron Warriors get Obliterators instead, etc.)

Then different Greater deamons for each legion.

Basically, chaos alone could be a whole game almost.

ImmortalChaos

30th Mar 08, 10:43 PM

Relic does not have infinite time and monies...

verybad

30th Mar 08, 10:51 PM

I'd rather see Chaos saved for an expansion, and "done right" than see it at first with fewer options. It could really sell well for one expansion dedicated to them, but I don't think it would work well for multiple expansions, and it simply won't have all those options (4 gods plus undivided) if it's in the first release. It needs a full release dedicated to it for that to happen.

Quality vrs Promptness, I'd rather wait and get a better version.

Personally I'd like to see DOW2 have 3 races on release (SM, Eldar, Orkz) with two expansions (Guards vs Nid) and Lost and the Damned (Chaos in all it's glory, with numerous options for building diverse chaos armies, either SM or Lost and Damned.

grendizer

31st Mar 08, 12:09 AM

Theres no way they're going to do chaos an uber deep race different to every other, so chaos on release.

Croaxleigh

31st Mar 08, 1:08 AM

For those saying that Chaos should be saved for an expansion so that they're "done right", keep in mind that both the budget and development cycles for expansions are reduced from the main game. Saving Chaos for an expansion could mean that instead of being included in the 3-year development cycle of Dawn of War 2 that there are only 9 months given to the Chaos expansion (which is time that would be divided between working on Chaos and doing whatever was going to be done to SM, Orks, and the others.)

IVE'S

31st Mar 08, 1:30 AM

I think that doctrines will happen to all the races. Like the "after T2 choose your path" thingo. Chaos obivously with the gods. SM with the chapters (Blood Angels assault oriented, etc.). Orks with their WAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaGGHHHH!!! ' s. Eldar with their Craftworlds. Etc, etc, etc. I reckon that it will all balance out nicely in the end, hopefully. No pressure Relic.

Triceron

31st Mar 08, 1:30 AM

Those two years are spent mostly on RnD, art direction, content creation and other elements. Remember that there's 4 races, so it's 2 years to create all 4 races + everything else like the enviroments, UI, singleplayer content and more.

An expansion, although having less development time, has that pipeline set up so you can 'fill in the blanks'. More time is focused on actually creating the content rather than setting the standard.

saibot

31st Mar 08, 2:22 AM

I highly doubt they will manage to squeeze all major Gods and Chaos Glory into one faction, much work for one race and already a balancing nightmare in the fmain game.

Three subfactions like in CoH sounds much more reasonable.

My ideas would be:

Khorne:
-fast, melee butchering

Tzeentch:
-tough, slow Rubric Marines, strong in distance
-Daemons with stronge fire attacks
-every squad leader is a powerful spell caster, micro intensive

Chaos Glory:
-acces to some Khornate and some Tzeentchian Daemons
-morale restoring abilities
-acces tp Raptors
-more possible upgrades for Possesed Marines

Terrordar

31st Mar 08, 2:29 AM

Guess what boys?

Fanboys who think that Chaos would be "Done Right" In an expansion are dreaming. I've played Chaos for a decade now, word bearers, and I will say this-

you can't have entirely dedicated, it'll have to be an undivided legion, with 3 seperate tech trees. Deal with it. (gasp)

Next? Leaving them out from the get go is WORSE then not putting nids in.

Also, this game will be released around the same time as Starcraft. What the FUCK do you guys think is gonna happen there?

nids = Zerg
SM = Terran
Eldar = Protoss.

NO one will take the game seriously, the average gamer will assume it a knock off, and its a DUMB idea. I'm sorry, but Chaos adds diversity of flavor, and Tyranids on an individual level (which DoW2 seems to be more about, focusing on commanders and sub-commanders) have NO personality.

If Tyranids are indeed not in this game, I will be a happy man. If they are? I'll still buy it. But I don't think it'll be nearly as strong a series, and will have a fundimental weakness. Tyranids are simply too generic.

Necrons have independant characters at least. Tyranids are basically just big bug-things, even the hive tyrants aren't really individuals. I don't wanna play as something that goes "GRRRRR!" As its line, the whole fucking campaign. You want nids? play Zerg.

nick2512

31st Mar 08, 2:59 AM

yeah, a horde of tyranids on your screen will give you the biggest lag ever, even if you got a mad-ass rig to begin with.

I maybe a minority in our community but I don't get excited about tyranids being included, they'll be like the necrons but instead of going "zzzzzzz......................". They'll go "grrrrrrrr.......".

People tend to think that almost everything is being ripped off starcraft, I mean. W40k was invented in the 1970' and starcraft came almost 3 decades later. Where is that comic that you see two guys talking about the relationship between warhammer and warcraft with one of the bloke flipped out?

God damned Blizzard and their Starcratf (good game though).

hangar-8

31st Mar 08, 3:39 AM

Leaving out Chaos would be like leaving out half the storyline. A lot of the 40K universe revolves around the aftermath of the Horus Heresy.

Personally, even if units duplicate function (why not, just add variety, so what if one unit does pretty much the same as the other, it's for the look of the thing), I'd like to see more daemon engines as well as daemons. One of the things I like about Chaos is that they are.. Chaotic.

Even if Relic doesn't go down the separate gopds path, allow the player to choose his army (look, at least) by selecting say.. a stumble gun instead of a predator, or one of each. Player B might just do tanks all the way.

Duplicating functions isn't always a bad thing (quiet, you pro players.. go play chess ;) ). 40K is VERY visual, give the players some visual choice, even if the look of the thing doesn't actually affect gameplay.

The same could actually be said for any/all of the factions.

Alastor

31st Mar 08, 3:56 AM

I dont know, thankfully when I first played DoW I didnt know any better, but Chaos was done pretty poorly originally.

Something I would like done is sort of an "Army builder" type thing, which would allow for example, turning Chaos Raptors into a troop choice, but limiting the amount of Heavy support that you can have out. I realise that this isnt exactly feasible, but I can wish, damnit.

This would let us play as any Legion/Renegade Spess merins we wanted to, allow marine fans to play as any chapter, any Ork boyz to play as any clan, etc

Though I'm sure this would be some sort of coding nightmare, heh.

Plumb

31st Mar 08, 9:02 AM

The mainstay of the DoW storyline is based around the Horus Heresey, and as such, a DoW game without chaos in the first version would have to have a really good storyline surrounding the other implemented factions, because, imo, storylines involving Chaos are always the best.

Maximus Decimus

31st Mar 08, 9:18 AM

Also, this game will be released around the same time as Starcraft. What the FUCK do you guys think is gonna happen there?

nids = Zerg
SM = Terran
Eldar = Protoss.

Given 2.5 million people have bought DoW i doubt this comparison will be very probable.

Shuma

31st Mar 08, 9:42 AM

Also, this game will be released around the same time as Starcraft. What the FUCK do you guys think is gonna happen there?

SC2 doesn't even have a set date, it will probably come out LATE 2009, isn't DoW2 supposed to come out Early 2009?

And how in the hell are Terrans Similar to Space Marines besides power armor? Or Eldar to prottos besides being psychic? And the 'nids actually ripped of the Zerg look, yeah Tyranids have been around for far longer, however the 'nids you see now that look similar to the Zerg came AFTER the Zerg, Before the Zerg the Tyranids were very diferent from what they look now.

Zyrusticae

31st Mar 08, 9:50 AM

Comparisons between Warhammer races and Starcraft races (with the exception of the 'nids and the Zerg) are utter bollocks.

Here's why:

Terrans vs. Space Marines
1. The Terrans of Starcraft are simply wayward humans who found themselves stuck on a cluster of planets far, far away from home. They are not religious fanatics. They do not use technology that they do not understand. They do not have an empire that spans an entire galaxy. They aren't even remotely similar in that aspect. They're much more... human than the Imperium.
2. They have completely seperate military doctrines. The Space Marines of the Imperium are not expendable foot soldiers. Siege tanks aren't even remotely similar to predators (stationary artillery cannon vs. dedicated anti-infantry/anti-vehicle mobile weapons platform). Ditto with Battlecruisers vs. battle barges. The Terrans will throw assloads of marines (who are NOT elite super-soldiers so much as unfortunate convicts "re-socialized" into the role of foot soldier) into the front where Space Marines will deep strike into enemy territory and attempt to minimize casualties.

Protoss vs. Eldar
1. The Eldar are an elder race much like the Protoss, yes. They both possess tremendous psychic power. That's where comparisons end, however. Protoss technology is entirely seperate from Eldar technology. Protoss rely much more heavily on their Psi powers than the Eldar do, including using weapons powered entirely by their minds. Protoss (used to) have a single homeworld, with colonies dotting planets out in deep space. Eldar used to have a gargantuan empire, and now travel throughout deep space on craftworlds. Eldar are still recognizably 'human' physically, but Protoss only partially resemble human beings (they have a head, eyes, torso, arms and legs... but that's about it).
2. They both make heavy use of gateways for transportation, but their military doctrines are, again, entirely seperate. Protoss 'vehicles' tend to be heavy and powerful (see dragoons, reavers, scouts and carriers), whereas Eldar make heavy use of skimmer technology, even on their heavy weapons platforms. Protoss have shields on everything, and make heavy use of computerized A.I.s. Not so much with the Eldar.

Zerg and 'nids, on the other hand, are very similar when it comes right down to it. Their designs divert wildly from one another, but they're both essentially creatures whose strength is derived entirely from the DNA they subsume from other creatures, hence carapaces and biological weaponry. They're the only races you can draw obvious comparisons to, however.

Koozer

31st Mar 08, 10:13 AM

The average gamer wouldn't know those reasons though, they'd just take one look at a screenshot of each game and say 'LOL RLIC R RIP-OF BLIZ' especially as your average gamer is more likley to have played a Blizzard game and therefore trust them more (WoW) than a Relic game (that sounds a bit condascending, sorry mr.average gamer, but you get the point :))

Shuma

31st Mar 08, 10:23 AM

'Nids and Zerg are not really similar besides being alien bugs. Tyranids are semi-inteligent, Zerg are animals, bound togheter by the will of the Overmind(now Kerrigan). If the Cerebrates or their leaders die the Zerg are just savage animals and nothing more, the Leaders of the Zerg are sentient, incredibly powerfull and well, have a body.

The Tyranids have no real leader. The Tyranids are invading the galaxy for food, the Zerg do it to conquer it. And ultimately, became the perfect beings by hunting down and asimilating the prottos into the Swarm. The Tyranids don't build bases, the Zerg do, Tyranids use "ships" the Zerg don't, Tyranids are psychic(i think, at least some of them) the Zerg aren't. The Zerg require numbers to win and lack "super monsters" besides the Ultralysk and perhaps the Hydralysk, the Tyranids have lot's of Elite Warriors, Warriors, Carnifexes, Zoanthropes, Reavers etc etc.

You see, none of the races are similar in any way, the only similarity is:

Terran Marine=Power armor=Space Marine
Prottos=Psychic=Eldar
Zerg=Bugs=Tyranids

But yeah, like Koozer said, the Average gamer is Stupid.

Bota99

31st Mar 08, 10:46 AM

They really need to have Chaos as one of the original release races.

I like the idea of having at least 3 subfactions to choose from with their different choices at the higher levels.

Energizer Bunny

31st Mar 08, 11:05 AM

Can't see Chaos being left out. The Blood Ravens are Relic's baby and their whole back story revolves around Chaos and their ties to it. Why would you put so much effort into building that up only to ignore it?

I also (much as I would love to) can't see there ever being 4 seperate armies based on the 4 chaos gods. It would just be so much work to create and all the while you'd have the likes of IG/Eldar/Tau etc (whichever ones don't get into DoW2) sitting on the sidelines. There have only been 5 races added in all 3 DoW expansion packs - imagine if 4 of them had been Chaos.

I actually think Relic will go the other way and create a purely Khornate army (Word Bearers natch) stripping out all the non Khorne elements such as the Sorceror and Horrors.

Terrordar

31st Mar 08, 11:41 AM

Comparisons between Warhammer races and Starcraft races (with the exception of the 'nids and the Zerg) are utter bollocks.

You know, the other day I was web browsing, going over things about Age of Reckoning. Now, someone posted, "Goblins, why can't I play a female Goblin!" and went on a 3 page paragraph bitching about GW being sexist towards women, because they couldn't play a woman Goblin.

You guys probably know, Orkoids are Fungus.

The same falls true for this. You are claiming people will outright know the difference? I'm sorry, I don't give people NEARLY that much credit for intelligence. Not nearly.

Steel*Faith

31st Mar 08, 1:40 PM

Fanboys who think that Chaos would be "Done Right" In an expansion are dreaming.

Hey Terrordar, I think you need to chill because your swearing and getting worked up about nothing.

Secondly it's funny how some people on this forum think they know exactly what Relic is going to do, or they think Expansion races aren't done right? I think all the DOW expansion races are far better than the originals by far. They look better graphically, and their units are far more interesting. Same goes with the expansion units.
So sorry to sound like an ass, but expansion races definitely have the focus and time put into them individually to shine over the vanilla races.

Chaos in an expansion would without a doubt get the attention they need, instead of having to share a starting position with SM and Orks. Secondly most of the people demanding Chaos be in at the start are Chaos fans. That would be like me demanding the Tau get in first, which would be a better choice from a DOW 2 standpoint. Mainly because they are so much more unique and different from the Orks and SM.

Even though SM vs. Chaos is a classic matchup. I think They need to expand beyond this and start making the other races have more time in the spotlight so they can be appreciated more. Tau, DE, IG, Nids ect all have tremendous potential to be starting races if done right. Unfortunately there are people who are stuck in this TT mentality and can't move away from it.

Also, Tyranids have plenty of interest and support from fans and newcomers to DOW to be in the sequel. Just because you (Terrordar) don't like them, doesn't mean there aren't thousands of people who want nothing more than to see slimy space aliens swarming over the precious SM armies.

Zerg are probably the most popular race in SC. There is a reason for that, and Tyranids are the inspiration for the Zerg in the first place. Tyranids deserve some spotlight, and they are unique enough to be in there own RTS. Just because Blizzard copied GW and made the Zerg doesn't mean the better Tyranid race shouldn't be featured.

Iwasfrozen

31st Mar 08, 2:26 PM

Hey Terrordar, I think you need to chill because your swearing and getting worked up about nothing.
When did he swear ?

ErichTheGraham

31st Mar 08, 3:09 PM

Guys, I think it is unfair to say that the SC races and the Warhammer races are completely different. I'm not saying they are carbon copies, but can you honestly tell me you don't see why people draw those comparisons? Can you honestly tell me that it is totally stupid for a person who has never heard ANYTHING ABOUT the W40k universe (like I hadn't before DoW), to draw those comparisons? In fact, it is completely reasonable. We are just mad because we know that if they looked further, they would find more. In that position, though, I would TOTALLY think DoW was ripping off SC. I wouldn't criticize somebody for thinking that way, just correct them.

EDIT: That was off the original topic, though. I don't care how it's done, but I would love to see Chaos given more of their own flair. They definitely kind of just seem like the "evil" version of space marines right now. I would also love to see CoH's doctrines implemented in this game, and the different Chaos gods could be reflected there. However, I don't know how much I am willing to sacrifice for this. You guys do realize that having a game with this many races is hard work, right? I don't want to wait six expansions to get all the races in there. I also really hope that they never ever EVER try to implement ALL the different chapters for every race. This is not the tabletop and I don't think relic has the resources to make that happen without sacrificing something most of us care more about.

Steel*Faith

31st Mar 08, 4:15 PM

Also, this game will be released around the same time as Starcraft. What the FUCK do you guys think is gonna happen there?

I don't wanna play as something that goes "GRRRRR!" As its line, the whole fucking campaign. You want nids? play Zerg.

People like to swear about anything, so maybe it was just me. He just seemed to be getting worked up a little too much.

He also is making a lot of assumptions. There's a lot of people who think the Tyranids are "cool" and interesting. Just because they don't talk and have witty comeback lines doesn't mean they aren't a good race for a RTS game.

Guys, I think it is unfair to say that the SC races and the Warhammer races are completely different.

Of course it wouldn't be unfair to compare them. Blizzard directly got their SC races from WH 40k races, and mixed them together.

Terrordar

31st Mar 08, 4:49 PM

They don't have characters.

A Hive Tyrant is not a character. Period.

They do not have real value on squads, ect.

And yet it should be put into an independent character/squad combat based game, where they have limited number of units?

Excuse me for seeming strangely not enticed by such an idea. I have a Tyranid army. I've played them for years. I've also played 2 Chaos armies, 2 Space Marine armies, a Tau Army, an ork force (and I'll build a new one this year methinks) as well as Eldar.

I've played Warhammer for 14 years come tomorrow (my birthday). Excuse me for getting worked up, but based off even this game's nature and game mechanics, it seems stupid to throw in, I'm sorry to say, a bunch of one track Alien ripoffs.

HotAvatar101

31st Mar 08, 6:56 PM

I also think that tyranids should not be in DOW2. The only reason that seems relic mite put them in is bcuz some ppl want it, but chaos is much a better antagonist than nids. Besides, i want cool lines, not creepy noises.

The Witchking

31st Mar 08, 7:38 PM

peaple keep saying that they want chaos in an expantion so they'll be done right...considering relics been working on this sence 2005 and all the chaos fan in existence are expecting relic to give some choose as to what god you choose, i think its safe to say it should be in dow2 not an expantion such as WA were there was actually less quality than in dow vanilla, so your not making any sence when you say "yeah expantion alright chaos" when you consider these facts and we don't even know if there will even be an expantion

NeoHunter

31st Mar 08, 7:41 PM

Daemons. Daemons. And more Daemons.

That is what Chaos is about.

Steel*Faith

31st Mar 08, 8:18 PM

Tyranid Special Characters (http://uk.games-workshop.com/tyranids/special-characters/1/)

Are these characters going to argue back and forth about who is better, or why you are stupid? No, but they are going to stand out from crowd and be memorable characters. Just like the Alien from the move "Alie" was, or other Sci-Fi movies. Tyranids offer something to people that represents a different part of Sci-Fi than let's say a SM would.

Secondly most people are assuming that every race in DOW 2 will have armies limited to six sqauds only. IMO that seems highly doubtful, and if so the squad sizes for each race will undoubtedly be varied.

Tyranids are going to be in DoW 2 without a doubt. In the case of the CSM I personally don't want to see them in the first release. First off because I want to see the Nids, Orks, SM, and Tau (or Eldar) first.

Lastly i'm not comparing the quality of the Expansion packs campaign quality, i'm comparing the quality of the races made in the XP packs and DOW vanilla. The IG, Tau, and Necron (not counting non-relic work/ SS) looked better, and had more polish. That's all i'm saying. If Chaos isn't in the first release, they will undoubtedly will be back with a vengeance in a XP pack, and they are going to be damn cool to boot.

I also don't see how that couldn't be a good thing, to have Chaos in an XP pack where the story is revolved around them for the most part, and relic can devout all their time to them, and some new units for the existing races?

ChaosReigns

31st Mar 08, 8:33 PM

Well, at this point only SM and Orks are getting campaigns (apparently), so no worries regarding "nids going grrrrr for the whole ****ing campaign".

I know I keep saying this but unless Chaos is going to be getting a doctrine system I'm not interested. I want to see something new for Chaos, not a DoW1 clone with prettier graphics. I'm assuming that's (in part) why doctrines were worked into CoH though.

Aurora.psych

31st Mar 08, 8:33 PM

Anyone played battle realms? If you have you'll know what im talking about when i say they should implement training for csm squads so that they can 'recieve the benefits of the god' you choose for them.

Eg. send csm squad into facility, choose which patron god, converts them, done. They come out as basic marines with basic weapons and benefits WITHOUT having to choose from so many options while building troops, too many options gets confusing.

Another idea is an 'ability' that lets you mark something with one of the gods,
i.e. mark a building to transform it into (god) design, mark squads, etc.

REGARDLESS, having more variations means more work even if it is all in one race.

Steel*Faith

31st Mar 08, 8:35 PM

Chaos reigns is that confirmed that the campaign is only SM & Orks? I don't think that has been confirmed or even said has it? They did say in the article that the SM & Orks are the first races revealed but their will be others.

ChaosReigns

31st Mar 08, 8:39 PM

There will be other races for skirmish as I recall. I seem to remember one of the points in the article being that only Orks and SM would have campaigns. I could be wrong though and maybe Relic will surprise us by giving more races a campaign?

EDIT: Here's the official statement from the DoW2 Confirmed Mk2 thread.

- Co-op campaign for both the Orkz and Space Marines, apparently not for the other to-be-revealed races.

verybad

31st Mar 08, 8:58 PM

I think Tyranids can be made interesting, but would also be best saved for an expansion. Tyrannids vs Guards is a classic lineup, and could be a whole different style of fighting than Marines vs Orks. With expandable units, and much more killin'.

For me, I like the artwork of the WH40K universe, but I really don't care which factions are first. Marines and Orkz alone are enough for me to buy the game. Marines are probably my favorite, just because they're so bad-***, but the whole thing is cool.

Chaos Marines in vanilla DOW were rather boring. They're simply regular marines with some spikes. Sure you could get a big daemon later but by and large it just didn't seem "evil" enough.

It's safe to say that Chaos will be in the game either from the first or eventually, whether through an expansion, or in the basic DOW2. I can wait as long as it takes. I think the smaller scale of DOW2 will help each faction have more uniqueness during play, I'd like to see Chaos Marines seem ruthless and brutal, and even more elite than the "weakling imperials"~ after all, 10,000 years of combat will make you pretty tough. There are fewer chaos marines than there are regular space marines also...

I'm defineately not a fanboy, I don't play the boardgame, and Chaos isn't my favorite faction to play in the videogame (I like to use the regular Marines or Guards), I just want each faction to be done well, and to have a lot of flavor.

The Nids have a wide level of attraction for many players, for the campaign they can be great opponents (it woudl be hard to make them proponents without introdusing a sentient, independent character (like you know who in SC). For MP they'd be fine, and have a much different style of play from the other races, even the Orks. Perhaps you may not like them as your own faction, but it would be hard to argue that it would be fun to play space marines vastly outnumbered cutting down thousands of the bloodthirsty beasts, or a Guard commander desperately trying to get reinforcements from an unresponsive HQ as Nids come over the wall...They can be made entertaining by banking on their eternal hunger and bloodthirstiness.

Steel*Faith

31st Mar 08, 9:05 PM

Hmmm wierd. As long as there are other races for skirmish i'm set then.

grendizer

31st Mar 08, 10:21 PM

I think the smaller scale of DOW2 will help each faction have more uniqueness during play,

That means we'll have smaller battles and less squads? If this is true :down: Don't know how this can give uniqueness.

Shakrith

31st Mar 08, 10:53 PM

I think rather than tech specialisation, if you actually chose your god beforehand it would be good. That way, you could have more cult items integrated into the general appearance of the army - if they just had a spot on a marine where they'd stick the Mark of their god, for example, right through to theming the base etc.

I want more Lost and the Damned. I think that after ten thousand years of war (if you're reading this and thinking, hasn't Shakrith already said this, yes, I have, in another thread), the Traitor Legions would be very elite. Chaos Marines don't generally attack a world by just marching around in their power armour - there aren't enough of them to do that. Instead (if they're like the Alpha Legion or Word Bearers, for example), they corrupt the leaders, get local support, hell, enslave populations and summon daemons: the marines themselves are the spearpoint but can't constitute the whole army except in Black Crusades or in small, critical actions.

Therefore I think if they gave you cultists, heretics, mutants, psykers, et cetera, long before you ever laid eyes on a marine, it would be perfect. The Lost and the Damned list already does this well. Early-game they're a horde army with traitor guardsmen at range, mutants and cultists in melee. Mid-game you're starting to see Big Mutants, daemons and chaos spawn, with perhaps the beginnings of Chaos Space Marine support. Late game the Chaos marines burst onto the scene, godlike in their powered, daemon-infused armour, chanting the praise of the Ruinous Powers, basking in violent conquest. They would be all veterans - better than Space Marines, in general. The Chosen, the Obliterators, the Cult Marines, the Raptors - these would all be seriously hardcore troops, very expensive, and they'd be the artistic centrepiece of the army.

You know, as much as I like Tzeentch and Khorne, Slaanesh and Nurgle deserve some time. I think noise marines would just be perfect, even if Relic aren't willing to do daemonettes. The player needs to get the sense that the Chaos marines are at once absolutely deranged and fiercely professional, and the way the Noise Marines are smashed on drugs and sound and still prepared to effortlessly kill in various grisly ways conveys that perfectly. Every CSM should give you that same chill you got when you first heard the Raptors scream "sanity is for the weak!". Plague marines and nurglings and all the disgusting festering things, those too.

Oh, and daemonhood. I think we should see the CSM diverging more and more from reality as we get up to the top - starting with the mutants with just physical deformities, but then by the end, I want marines with smoking eyes, auras of fire, footprints which blacken the earth, weapons which talk and move of their own accord, and great baroque pieces of armour which very slowly warp and deform as you watch.

Demonhorde

31st Mar 08, 11:47 PM

I think adding all the gods can become really hard to fight. If you make them to diffrent. think about it, having 4 relic or uber units that all play diffrent and so many unit choices would make it really hard for other races to counter let alone the balance issue. Im saying this as a chaos player myself and im having a hard time seeing it work. I much rather have it like in CoH were after you earn expirence points you can choose path and unlock units and effects. Much easier. :spin:

Terrordar

31st Mar 08, 11:54 PM

verybad

1st Apr 08, 12:50 AM

That means we'll have smaller battles and less squads? If this is true Don't know how this can give uniqueness.

If you have smaller armies, and you need to take care of each squad rather than treating them like cannon fodder, then you can have a more unique setup. Especially if they get rid of building your units (I hope they do) so your build order isn't a huge part of your success in the game.

SubakuGaara

1st Apr 08, 9:49 AM

As much as we'd all like to see 4 separate chaos armies, I just don't think it can be done. Overall I just would like chaos to me more chaotic and demon using. They are much too tame in their current form thats all. Lets see more of that corruption affecting our troops.

Iwasfrozen

1st Apr 08, 11:10 AM

@Shakrith, I agree, comon how can a normal Space Marine with a few hundred years of experience be a better fighter than a Chaos Marine with 10,000 years of fighting experience AND demonic powers, It dosn't make sense !!!
CSM should be ultra elite and very few in number.

Enochian

1st Apr 08, 11:43 AM

Just make it a undivided mix with troops and demons. in tier 1.5/two you have too pick two of the four kinda like Tau or the cron lord. Than any troop/demon can be taken as there patron. Please give me dreads and terminators PLEASE.

Chaos marines are replaced regularly just as marines are. Marines have veteran abilities and devotion, chaos has demonic power and experiance. Remember chaos has many faults to exploit.

Ifitmovesnukeit

1st Apr 08, 12:33 PM

I agree, comon how can a normal Space Marine with a few hundred years of experience be a better fighter than a Chaos Marine with 10,000 years of fighting experience AND demonic powers, It dosn't make sense !!!

'Cause normal marines have more advanced equipment, less blatant mutation, are more used to fighting within the confines of the laws of physics, and don't worship fickle Gods who are just as likely to abandon you as help you?

You can have all the experience you like with a bow and arrow, but if you then try facing a rookie in a tank... :p (yes analogy implies a bigger technology gap than there is, but still...).

HeavensNight

1st Apr 08, 1:00 PM

It may have been mentioned but the new plastic Daemonettes coming out in may no longer have exposed breasts so they can be safely included in the game now without dragging the rating up.

Creature

1st Apr 08, 1:07 PM

Could someone please put up a link for the article i keep reading about? the one to do with the Orks and Space Marines campaigns.

Terrordar

1st Apr 08, 1:52 PM

Can't. Sorry mate, rules is rules.

Chogen84

1st Apr 08, 1:57 PM

same way it is with more deamons

ChaosReigns

1st Apr 08, 3:20 PM

The beautiful thing about essence is that it has doctrines built in though. It would be so easy to add in god specific options you guys. Except that instead of infantry, armour or airforce doctrines the options would be to have the Patronage of one of the gods, having access to special abilities and that god's daemons and cult marines. Anyway, we'll see what Relic does.

verybad

1st Apr 08, 4:30 PM

Could someone please put up a link for the article i keep reading about? the one to do with the Orks and Space Marines campaigns.
Just google it. Took me maybe two minutes to find screens. Don't ask here cause it'll get your account submitted to the Emperor's Wrath.

grendizer

1st Apr 08, 10:26 PM

If you have smaller armies, and you need to take care of each squad rather than treating them like cannon fodder, then you can have a more unique setup. Especially if they get rid of building your units (I hope they do) so your build order isn't a huge part of your success in the game.

The max pop for a regular army is of 10 squads in dow, wa, dc and ss. You only use all your pop in big battles so you play 90% of the time with 5-6 squads. I don't see uniqueness in that.

Soulprick

1st Apr 08, 10:49 PM

Its a long topic, but I'll just reply to the original post.

What I'd like to see Chaos as is a horde of savage, insane, ululating beasts (Lovecraft-esque, of course), herding waves of zealots and heretics, mad and looking to die for Chaos, backed by a bit more orderly regiment of Chaos Marines.
Chaos Marines should be less disposable, more like the current Obliterators are.

Creature

2nd Apr 08, 1:34 AM

Just google it. Took me maybe two minutes to find screens. Don't ask here cause it'll get your account submitted to the Emperor's Wrath.

Ahh. Copyright laws and stuff. Doesn't matter I found what I was looking for. Does that mean the game is actually confirmed?

nick2512

2nd Apr 08, 2:33 AM

I heard that some guy from Relic comfirmed it. I read (something) somewhere, I do not even know what I'm talking about.

*sniffles a cough*

KuRtCoS

2nd Apr 08, 3:02 AM

Chaos in DoW2...

Thinking... We got marines and orks... obviously a third race will appear? Tyranids? That is very likely... but maybe they come out in the first expansion...

Dunno really, i'd prefer an expansion dedicated to chaos with Chaos Marines, Chaos Daemons, Ordo Malleus and Ordo Hereticus as new armies (dreaming is free :þ)

Mirage Knight

2nd Apr 08, 7:14 AM

If DoW 2 is going to have 4 races, my guess is that Chaos won't be making the cut. Reason? Too similar to Space Marines in most people's eyes whereas a race like Tyranids makes for a new and unique experience (bio-weaponry and swarm mentality) and Eldar have a style all their own - elegance coupled with fierce firepower.

More than likely, the lineup is going to be Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, and Tyranids, with Chaos being saved for an expansion. Done right, that lineup coupled with Essence 2.0 is going to make DoW2 a better seller than SC2.

Terrordar

2nd Apr 08, 8:32 AM

"DoW2 a better seller than SC2."

Kinda have to say, I love DoW, MUCH more than Starcraft, but your on crazy pills my friend. Starcraft II is going to sell 5,000,000 - 10,000,000 copies (long term, if its anything like SC1). It could literally not have a disk in the box, and have a turd in there instead, and it'd sell that many.

Do not underestimate the power of Starcraft. IF everyone thought like you or me, then yes, DoW2 would sell more. DoW2 IMO is going to sell 1,000,000 - 3,000,000 copies. Just simply because DoW2, will have high system reqs, and many people won't be able to run the game.

That, and its FREAKING STARCRAFT. Sorry, just had to point that last part out... you know, the whole fact that its basically the most recognized RTS game, you know, ever made.

Mirage Knight

2nd Apr 08, 12:09 PM

Yet SC2 doesn't bring anything truly innovative to the genre...it's just SC with updated graphics.

Now to get this back on topic before the thread devolves.

Personally I'd love to see Chaos in the initial release of DoW2. For me, there's enough difference between SM and Chaos to see them included but that's not what a lot of people think...and those people pretty much dictate game development. Relic obviously wants to put out a game that is going to be snapped up with minimal whining from the masses. Obviously they can't please everyone but that's how things go. Including SM, Orks and Nids to me is a no-brainer...the issue is really which race should be the 4th...Eldar, Necrons, IG, Tau, or Chaos. A real toss up eh?

Even if Chaos misses the first cut (which I'm pretty certain of), they're definitely going to be in an expansion...sooner or later, Chaos WILL be included. In DoW2 I can see Chaos with Doctrines that allow you to pick a particular Mark of Chaos, with unit choices and abilities based on what Mark was chosen, I.E. Cult Marines, different Chaos Lords, Daemons, etc...

themango55

2nd Apr 08, 1:21 PM

Alright here's my idea, Chaos comes in the first expansion as the only race.

The different Gods of chaos will be represented by a unique temple or shrine building, which would cost a similar amount to a listening post or power plant. Rather than upgrading your HQ to get to the next tier, the temple has 5 different upgrades, one for each God and one for Undivided.

Once you have upgraded, your faction will gain bonuses and penalties, your temples will change to do certian things, and you will have access to specific units.

Tech tree:

Standard Units:

Commander - Chaos Lord

Troops:
Tier 1: Cultists - scout/point capping infantry
Chaos Space Marines - general infantry
Chaos Raptors - fast assault

Tier 2: Havocs - Heavy weapons team. Think SoB Celestian squad

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=214418

Chaos Havocs are Chaos Space Marines with a preference for killing at range with their powerful weaponry. Each Chaos Havoc’s heavy weapon is a trusted ally of a thousand battles, its wielder completely familiar with its every operation. Together, weapon and Chaos Space Marine touch every part of the battlefield with death and destruction, laying waste like capricious gods.

Tier 3: Obliterators - Heavy ranged specialists
Possessed Space Marines - Heavy melee specialists
new, and awesome, models
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_possessed_lg.jpg

All vehicles are standard, the exception is the Defiler, which gets a bonus based upon which God is chosen.

Khorne tree

Bonus: infantry do more damage
Penalty: no infantry can be cloaked

Temple: Makes nearby units immune to morale damage

Secondary commander: Champion of Khorne - Good melee ability

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=5224

Infantry:
Marines become Berzerkers - very high morale, increased melee, decreased ranged damage

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=213689
Tier 2: Flesh hounds - fast attack melee troops
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_lsr_dem_krn2_lg.jpg
Tier 3: Bloodletters - Very powerful melee units
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_lsr_dem_krn_lg.jpg

Relic unit: Bloodthirster - Very powerful melee unit, can fly short distances
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_gtr_dem_krn_lg.jpg

Slannesh tree

Bonus: all infantry can be infiltrated
Penalty: infantry has less morale

Temple: Cloaks nearby buildings

Secondary commander: Chosen of Slannesh
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=213748

Infantry:
Marines become Noise Marines - two members of each squad equipped with sonic cannons that are effective against all units, and cause morale damage.
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=213731
Tier 2: Daemonettes - fast mellee unit - similar to howling banshees
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_lsr_dem_sln_lg.jpg
Tier 3: Noise Terminators - strong ranged vs all units, weak melee (for termies anyway)
http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Chaos_Noise_Marine_with_Sonicblaster.gif

Relic unit: Keeper of Secrets - Very fast melee unit, can become invisible
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_gtr_dem_sln_lg.jpg

Tzeentch tree

Bonus: all infantry have increased morale, buildings built faster
Penalty: no stationary defenses

Temple: Heals nearby units, acts as a turret of sorts (weaker than others)

Secondary commander: Sorcerer of Tzeentch
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=5225

Infantry:
Marines become Rubric Marines - Very tough and unaffected by morale damage, but slow. Seargent is a Sorcerer, without the sorcerer, the unit cannot be controlled, they simply stand in place and attack any enemy unit that comes close.
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=214382
Tier 2: Horrors - balanced melee and ranged, good vs vehicles
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_lsr_dem_tzc_lg.jpg
Tier 3: Screamers - floating fast attack melee unit
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_lsr_dem_tzc2_lg.jpg

Relic unit: Lord of Change - fairly powerful ranged attack, somewhat weak melee, has powerful offensive spells. Can teleport
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_gtr_dem_tzc_lg.jpg

Nurgle tree

Bonus: units have more health, stationary defenses are more powerful
Penalty: units move slower, buildings built slower

Temple: does passive morale and health damage to enemy infantry

Secondary commander: Herald of Nurgle
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=250081

Infantry:
Marines become Plague Marines - tougher than normal marines and inflict passive damage to enemy units nearby
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=250082
tier 2: Nurglings - large swarms of units that can overwhelm enemies, similar to gretchin squads but more powerful
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=214051
tier 3: Plaguebearers - melee unit that destroys morale almost instantly
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_lsr_dem_ngl_lg.jpg

Relic unit: Great Unclean one - good melee unit, MASSIVE ammount of health, somewhat slow, damages enemy morale
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_gtr_dem_ngl_lg.jpg

Undivided tree

Bonus: none
Penalty: none

Temple: can transport infantry between temples

Secondary commander: Terminator lord - very strong melee and ranged attack, somewhat slow.
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=259595

Infantry:
teir 2: Chaos furies (http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=303067&orignav=300901&ParentID=214233&GameNav=10) - minor daemon, good melee
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=214233
Tier 3: Chaos Terminators - versitile elite melee and ranged unit
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=259598

Relic unit: Daemon Prince - Good melee attack, inspires nearby troops to fight harder
http://uk.games-workshop.com/chaosspacemarines/miniature-gallery/images/CSM_daemonP_lg.jpg

NOTE: the tech tree was copied from a post I made at another forum, which also has a similar reply feature, so there may be formatting errors.

mikami170

2nd Apr 08, 2:12 PM

nice post mango, love the screens = )

Soulprick

2nd Apr 08, 2:41 PM

As a further suggestion, what about quazi-Age of Mythology where when you upgrade tiers you choose up to two/three deities to worship?

Mirage Knight

2nd Apr 08, 7:32 PM

Chaos Legions either serve a particular Chaos God or choose to worship Chaos as a whole (viewing all 4 Gods as a pantheon). In TT, the alliegence to a particular God is represented by personal Icons and battle standards that show the Mark of their patron diety, be it the Mark of Khorne or in the case of those that worship Chaos as a whole, the Mark of Chaos Undivided.

Marks of Chaos do indeed grant particular bonuses to units, for instance:

Mark of Slaanesh - better initiative / reaction times

Mark of Khorne - additional melee attacks

Mark of Nurgle - increased toughness

Mark of Tzeentch - increased resistance to damage in the form of Invulnerable Saves

Mark of Chaos Undivided - improved morale

In addition, it used to be that Marks also determined what daemons you could summon and what troops, vehicles, abilities and weapons you could obtain.

puenboy

2nd Apr 08, 9:28 PM

Chaos lord upgrade.

themango55

3rd Apr 08, 9:02 AM

Also, adding to my previous post, to balance the doctrines a bit, the Chaos Termies and Terminator lord would be a bit more powerful than the units associated with a particular God, to make up for Undivided's weaker marines and no bonuses.

There could also be a God specific research at the armory, depending on which you selected.

Khorne: Blood God's Fury - special ability - marines take and recieve double melee damage for a short time
Slaanesh: Backstab - infiltrated units melee attacking an enemy already engaged in melee do extra damage
Tzeenitch: Uncontrolled Growth - reinforcing units is faster
Nurgle: Degenerative Plague - Enemy units engaged in melee with nurgle infantry reinforce at half speed.
Undivided: Cursed Ammunition - Marines do more ranged damage

Droids_R

3rd Apr 08, 9:04 AM

First and most importantly: the ability to pick which Chaos God (or Undivided) that you follow.

I'd also like to see a more Cult-y type Chaos. Lots and lots of different types of Cultists and Traitor Guardsmen, and then the Chaos Marines coming out from hiding in the later tiers. That's how it works in many of the novels and fluff.

Dethklok

3rd Apr 08, 9:38 AM

Very true. In most novels the Marines only show up if the world shows good chance of being able to be converted to chaos. I mean most of the time the characters only meet Cultists and TRaitor guard because according to the books they are the most populous and A chaos Marine is a rareity.

But that wont happen as long as the space marines are around unless they make the space marines like they are supposed to be. Few, but those few are killing machines.

Versian

3rd Apr 08, 9:51 AM

But that wont happen as long as the space marines are around unless they make the space marines like they are supposed to be. Few, but those few are killing machines.

My main problem with Chaos indeed. A squad of Chaos Marines is 10 marines strong. A squad of Tac loyalists is 8 strong (not counting sarges and stuff). Why? CSM are supposed to be as strong as space marines + Chaos powers = Super Strong, stronger than SM. To balance it out, CSM are very rare, they have to go through a more selective process than a normal SM. They have to be traitors, or created from cultists. But cultists are weak and stuff

killer-ra

3rd Apr 08, 10:03 AM

I'm in the camp that wants too see Chaos get it's own expansion that will completely flesh out all of the unique stories, armies, and units of the specific Chaos gods.

Versian

3rd Apr 08, 1:05 PM

I'd like to see that too, for Chaos. But if you're gonna do it for Chaos, do it for everybody. SM have different Chapters, Tau have Hunter Cadres, Orkz have clanz, etc.

Terrordar

3rd Apr 08, 11:04 PM

Not realistic due to production fees boys. The idea of having all 9 major traitor units in one game? Pipe dream.

runab0ut

4th Apr 08, 12:17 AM

Just include these rocking CSMs with guitars! Noise Marines!

Shakrith

4th Apr 08, 1:55 AM

I think it's interesting how so many of us have homed in on just the same two things, myself included, responding without reading the others:

1) Cults, and chaos gods.
2) More cultists, mutants, traitor guardsmen.

I gather we have some support here, then.

Iwasfrozen

4th Apr 08, 9:02 AM

Not realistic due to production fees boys. The idea of having all 9 major traitor units in one game? Pipe dream.
Why isn't it realistic the essence engine has doctraines in it, all we are asking for is 4 doctraines

themango55

4th Apr 08, 9:11 AM

5 doctrines.

It would be better to not be penalized for playing undivided.

Iwasfrozen

4th Apr 08, 9:28 AM

why do you want to play undivided ?

corncobman

4th Apr 08, 9:38 AM

I guess to be able to get a mix of units

ZimZum

4th Apr 08, 10:24 AM

A mix of units would render the doctrine specific units pointless.

I mean, why go Khorne when you could get Khornate units, Nurgle units, etc, all as Undivided?

runab0ut

4th Apr 08, 11:24 AM

5 doctrines.

It would be better to not be penalized for playing undivided.

I would expect (if they go with the doctrine route and wishes that), instead of having 5 separate doctrines, you'll start already with undivided. Don't pick any you'll have access to standard Chaos armoury. Pick a doctrine... prevents you from accessing other units or imposes a unit cap depending to fluff.

Terrordar

4th Apr 08, 12:09 PM

3 Doctrines are the most likely.

Undivided.
Tzeentch.
Khorne.

Slaanesh is popular, but we don't need a AO game title.
Nurgle, love Pappy Nurgle, but he's not as popular as the other two.

themango55

4th Apr 08, 12:30 PM

A mix of units would render the doctrine specific units pointless.

I mean, why go Khorne when you could get Khornate units, Nurgle units, etc, all as Undivided?

But why go undivided if there are no advantages for it?

And as we all know, there are chaos factions that are undivided.

If you will look at one of my previous posts I laid out a tech tree for the 5 doctrines

http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=2922499&postcount=86

I would expect (if they go with the doctrine route and wishes that), instead of having 5 separate doctrines, you'll start already with undivided. Don't pick any you'll have access to standard Chaos armoury. Pick a doctrine... prevents you from accessing other units or imposes a unit cap depending to fluff.

The problem with starting undivided is that you can get the units you want from the other Gods that undivided has access to, then pick the doctrine that doesn't allow those units.

Simply have 5 doctrines and force people to choose before they tech up for the first time.

Shakrith

4th Apr 08, 11:35 PM

Undivided is necessary, simply because they aren't just a mix-and-match bunch but actually are different from any of the others. Word Bearers and Alpha Legion in particular are good models. Why?

1) Human cultists. Khorne and Nurgle certainly don't use these, Tzeentch and Slaanesh a bit, but they are the absolute staple of legions like the Alpha Legion in particular. If we want to have some mutants, cultists et cetera, they'd be in Undivided.

2) Tech. The Undivided legions rely more on their tech than other Chaos legions: only they use Raptors, they use more heavy vehicles (in particular the Iron Warriors aren't averse to using Vindicators or Basilisks). Techmarine equivalents only appear among Undivided and in particular Iron Warriors.

3) Plain old fashioned evil. Khorne's blood and gore, Tzeentch is magic, Nurgle's disease and Slaanesh is debauchery, but I like Undivided most, just aesthetically, because they're the kind of people who think that a balanced approach to psychopathic violence is required. Simple black-hearted piracy and megalomaniacal dreams of galactic conquest are just appealing as a premise for an army. Black Legion, for example - pure, simple evil. There is, in my opinion, more to like about Undivided than any of the gods considered individually.

4) Alright, fine. Variety. If you've made all the wonderful models for daemons, might as well let us use them. Besides, within Undivided there's as much variety as within orthodox Space Marine chapters anyway. Plenty of options.

Bas

5th Apr 08, 1:31 AM

CHAOS TERMINATORS

They look infinitely cooler than the SM ones. Far more customizable, with tusks, capes, horns, and all kinds of other crazy shit.

JosephRyan

5th Apr 08, 1:44 AM

BREAAAK THEIR BAAACKS! BREAAAK THEIR BAAACKS! BREAAAK THEIR BAAACKS! MY SPLEEN!

^

Fix that.

Baneboss

5th Apr 08, 6:36 AM

Spare me Chaos in DoW2. Im sick that every DoW campaign has rebels, maniacs, warpstorms and CSM in them. Not every system is tainted afterall.

Cant we have just Orks fighting SM and both having to fight off Tyranids?

I have no idea what will be the fourth race. I like Chaos overall but we need a little more diversity.

killer-ra

5th Apr 08, 6:42 AM

I don't want it to be decided by branching tech trees. I want the Chaos Legion you choose to decide the God(s) you serve. There are four Chaos Space Marine Legions dedicated to a specific Chaos God:

* Emperor's Children = Slaanesh
* World Eaters = Khorne
* Death Guard = Nurgle
* Thousand Suns = Tzeentch

^Choose one of these armies, and the decision is made for you. Each legion has its own unique character models, rules, and weapons, and that's the main reason as to why it should be done this way. In current DoW, every Chaos army is a simple vanilla palette swap, and as themango55 has proven, that's far from the reality of W40k fluff.

Then you have those who serve Chaos Undivided:
*Iron Warriors
*Night Lords
*Black Legion
*Word Bearers
*Alpha Legion

These armies will take advantage of everything Shakrith has pointed out. Cultists, mutants, "modern" technology, etc.

The point of a standalone Chaos expansion is so each God followers have their armies fleshed out in detail. Thousand Suns look like Thousand Suns; a Nurglite's armor is FUBAR with disease and corruption; Knornate warriors are all about that madness, and so on. Each of the four dedicated armies gets unique models tech trees, while Undivided carries on as it's been set-up in the previous games, but with the branches fleshed out a bit more to give you some options.

Mirage Knight

5th Apr 08, 7:33 AM

I don't want it to be decided by branching tech trees. I want the Chaos Legion you choose to decide the God(s) you serve. There are four Chaos Space Marine Legions dedicated to a specific Chaos God:

No - that is inherently wrong. Players should be able to pick a Mark and build their army the way they see fit. In the new Chaos Codex, there's a ton of examples of legions / warbands that are alligned with particular Chaos Gods. Thousand Sons isn't the only Legion that bears the Mark of Tzeentch, nor are the Emperor's Children the only Legion that bears the Mark of Slaanesh.

But why go undivided if there are no advantages for it?

Legions and Warbands bearing the Mark of Chaos Undivided can choose Cult Marines as well. MoCU also confers better morale on squads. It used to be that MoCU also allowed exclusive access to Oblits and Raptors and that Cult Marines were allowed but cost more and you couldn't mix and match them...(Eg. You couldn't have Noise Marines and Khorne Berserkers in the same army)

ZimZum

5th Apr 08, 7:38 AM

1) Human cultists. Khorne and Nurgle certainly don't use these, Tzeentch and Slaanesh a bit, but they are the absolute staple of legions like the Alpha Legion in particular. If we want to have some mutants, cultists et cetera, they'd be in Undivided. I don't think that's true. I'm pretty certain that all of the Chaos gods have a human following.

I don't want it to be decided by branching tech trees. I want the Chaos Legion you choose to decide the God(s) you serve. I don't like this idea. It messes with army customisation and forces you to use a doctrine because you like a colour scheme. It just seems inflexible.

Spare me Chaos in DoW2. Im sick that every DoW campaign has rebels, maniacs, warpstorms and CSM in them. Not every system is tainted afterall.

Cant we have just Orks fighting SM and both having to fight off Tyranids?

I have no idea what will be the fourth race. I like Chaos overall but we need a little more diversity. Every DoW so far has had a ludicrous story for the sake of cramming all the races possible in. I'd like it if instead of fitting all the races into one campaign, there were multiple campaigns featuring maybe two or three races in a conflict. That's if there are enough races added in the end.

killer-ra

5th Apr 08, 7:40 AM

No - that is inherently wrong. Players should be able to pick a Mark and build their army the way they see fit. In the new Chaos Codex, there's a ton of examples of legions / warbands that are alligned with particular Chaos Gods. Thousand Sons isn't the only Legion that bears the Mark of Tzeentch, nor are the Emperor's Children the only Legion that bears the Mark of Slaanesh.

I actually meant to include a section on a player's custom armies and being able to choose your own mark and all that jazz. Somehow I left it out during my copy pasting. I really only meant to use the established armies for the basis of my argument on how the game mechanics should be set up, and how the choice of Mark should be reflected in the appearance of your units. IF you do choose to use an established Legion, then yes, you should be locked into its fluffy followings.

The only thing I'm against is the branching tree in the battle; your allegiance should be a choice that's made before the map is loaded. I don't like the mix and match theories.

ZimZum

5th Apr 08, 7:44 AM

The only thing I'm against is the branching tree in the battle; your allegiance should be a choice that's made before the map is loaded. It kind of makes sense that your force would have already have an allegiance before entering battle, but that would make the game feel somewhat rock-paper-scissors, if some doctrines excel against certain others. In CoH, you can watch for signs of your opponent's choice and pick your doctrine to suit the strategy you'll use. Not that it's a huge part of gameplay or anything, and with decent balancing that won't be a problem I guess.

StalinsGhost

5th Apr 08, 7:49 AM

It makes sense to me to carry on treating Chaos with only one faction, only with slightly different tech trees depending on the alignment you choose, much like the Tau division in the last tier, only expanded.

Say a function in the HQ building allows you to dedicate your force to a god, doing so buffing/debuffing the force appropriately and making some alterations to the unit options. Remaining undivided allows you the most flexible unit choices, but each unit is generally not as powerful as a dedicated one.

Bonuses could actually be quite interesting really...

Khorne - obviously marines turn into Khorne beserkers, basically the melee monsters they should be.
Tzeentch - marines are tougher, with a Sorcerer leader giving them appropriate physic attacks, but move slower.
Nurgle - marines are tougher, are surrounded by toxic miasma and followed by Nurglings, damaging health and morale the close the plague marines get. Easily the best in my opinion :D
Slannesh - marines cause opposing forces to lose focus, causing less damage or something along those lines

Other units would simply have to follow this trend.

Of course with appropriate graphics; the unit slots themselves don't actually have to be replaced, only the unit graphics altered.

Perhaps undivided could have the option to upgrade to such units at the loss of an extra troop support point and resources?

Iwasfrozen

5th Apr 08, 8:10 AM

Khorne - obviously marines turn into Khorne beserkers, basically the melee monsters they should be.

Hmmm, I don't think the Marines should turn into beserkers (dosen't really make sense) though i would like to see your tech tree affecting the units your can build.
e.g building a chaple to Khorne allows you to build beserks but you are now set on the khrone path for the remainer of the battle.

Fire_Warrior

5th Apr 08, 8:29 AM

I bet they will include different factions of chaos but not as everyone expects like different units.

I figure you will select to play chaos and then what alignment, and this will only mean which models to use. All units and abilities are the same, just they look different.

Honestly having 5 separate armies within 1 army would make balancing sooo hard and all the voicing, detail, synckills etc would take waaaay too long. So they wont do it. Simple.

Having 4 different factions of chaos would essentially mean 4 completely new races that each need their own personality and balaning in particular, something that would be so hard. Perhaps each faction would get 1 unique unit (at the same tier and place as the other factions) to add some difference but thats it. I cannot imagine theyd waste all that time making different gods available when they can leave chaos as it is and add in new and different races to attract a wider audience.

Don't get your hopes up guys. It just isnt realistic.

Iwasfrozen

5th Apr 08, 8:38 AM

Honestly having 5 separate armies within 1 army would make balancing sooo hard and all the voicing, detail, synckills etc would take waaaay too long. So they wont do it. Simple.
You do know that dow II has been in production since '05 and is set to be released in mid '09 thats 4 years of work on 3-4 races. I see no problem in time :P

themango55

5th Apr 08, 8:42 AM

Are the berzerkers not your everyday rank and file marines (funny to say that about supersoldiers) for the world eaters faction?

Khorne Berzerkers

Khorne Berzerkers are the primary force of the World Eaters warbands. They are frothing madmen who thirst for bloodshed and to take the skulls of their opponents. Though the original source for Berzerkers were the World Eaters, there are Chaos Marines from other legions that have become Berzerkers as well after dedicating themselves to Khorne. Most Berzerkers are either part of the World Eaters or the Black Legion.

@ Stalin's Ghost, good to see another TWCer here!

Honestly having 5 separate armies within 1 army would make balancing sooo hard and all the voicing, detail, synckills etc would take waaaay too long. So they wont do it. Simple.

Having 4 different factions of chaos would essentially mean 4 completely new races that each need their own personality and balaning in particular, something that would be so hard. Perhaps each faction would get 1 unique unit (at the same tier and place as the other factions) to add some difference but thats it. I cannot imagine theyd waste all that time making different gods available when they can leave chaos as it is and add in new and different races to attract a wider audience.

Don't get your hopes up guys. It just isnt realistic.

Funny you should saay this fire_warrior, because that is pretty much exactly what they did with the Tau, only on a larger scale.

:lol:

killer-ra

5th Apr 08, 8:56 AM

Honestly having 5 separate armies within 1 army would make balancing sooo hard and all the voicing, detail, synckills etc would take waaaay too long. So they wont do it. Simple.

Having 4 different factions of chaos would essentially mean 4 completely new races that each need their own personality and balancing in particular, something that would be so hard.

Thus why it'd be a separate expansion pack, solely dedicated to the Chaos Gods and their followers.

I know it won't probably happen, but I can still dream, right? The premise of the topic is "What would you like to see?", not "What will Relic do?".

Fire_Warrior

5th Apr 08, 8:59 AM

that is pretty much exactly what they did with the Tau, only on a larger scale

fair enough but that was only 2 units. with chaos you would need different greater + lesser daemons plus at least 1 different troop choice per god alignment. thats significntly more than tau had done.
plus they wanted to make you choose between 2 very different gameplay styles whereas with chaos between gods there isnt much varieety they could genuinely pack into a DOW rts game. khorne is very unique but what is the difference between tzeentch/nurgle and maybe slaan-mage-priests (lol)?? it would be too much work for so little gain.

tau need diversity between kroot and ranged suits but chaos dont. they already have it. giving chaos all these options will make it insanely complex and difficult to counter, heck even be!

plus it would be so omgwtf balance issues. srsly. cmon I dont think the monkey gametesters are going to appreciate another 6 years of balancing

Shakrith

5th Apr 08, 4:33 PM

All races should, and in particular Chaos and Space Marines.

As for there being no variety in play style - how on earth can you justify that?! Khorne are raving melee monsters, and there's one style already. Slaanesh move quickly and deal damage fast. Nurgle could even have reanimation of the dead. Tzeentch - how can you say that slow-moving machine gunners with huge health supported by flying and teleporting daemons and sorcerers is not at all different from Khorne!?

And then there's undivided. Iron Warriors give you lots of vehicles. Word Bearers, daemons. Alpha Legion, cults and infiltration. Night Lords, think dark eldar in power armour.

Mokino

5th Apr 08, 5:32 PM

A mostly L & D/Daemon army with one or two elite marine squads would be best.

It would match TT and the fluff better and also be more realistic when they get defeated by IG.

And I'd like to see one discipline branch for each god. Let each branch grant one or two units plus some special powers.

Also make them more like WoW talent trees in that you don't have to choose a specific branch but dividing amongst them prevents access to the more powerful units/abilities (in this way Chaos Undivided could also be represented.)

Dreadnaug

5th Apr 08, 5:49 PM

It's pretty save to assume that Chaos will be at DoW II. You see DoW ended in cliffhanger, which included big chaos demon in it. We already saw Gabriel Angelos at teaser, so it's pretty save to think that the storyline will continue from vanilla DoW. If we have chaos storyline, we pretty surely have chaos army too.

Now Chaos doesn't need to have deeper customization as other races, as other races can be made as deep as well. Mark of Chaos already had 3 different themes at each major army (Chaos having undivided, Khorne and Nurgle), so how couldn't much more developed game do that. It's just about few different units, abilities and stats.

Examples:
----------

Chaos would have:
World Eaters (Khorne)
Death Guard (Nurgle)
Thousand Sons (Tzeench)
Emperor's Children (Slaanesh)

While SM would example have:
Ultramarines (some anti-tyranid units)
Blood Ravens
Blood Angels
Grey Wolves
(or something else)

Eldar would have 4 different craftworlds and so on...

Shakrith

5th Apr 08, 5:57 PM

Hurrah for more support for the L&D army.

Clearly other factions have this too, as Dreadnaug has pointed out. Whinge about Khorne? Try Space Wolves.

TheLoneKnight

5th Apr 08, 6:27 PM

I would have no complaints to all factions getting split tech trees.

Orks could easily have the Kult of Speed (vehicles/transports/bikes/etc), Stompin' (CC stompin') and Lootin' (sneaky stuff, lootin')

Eldar could have options for Raiding (hit and run, skimmers, warp spiders, etc), Aspect Warriors (durr) and Wraith/Psionics (to focus on Warlocks, Wraithguard/Wraithlord)

Chaos could have Khornate-devoted (since they're going to get in no matter how much I hate those stupid overused little twerps), Tzeentch (Sorcerors, mutations, maybe rubric marines) and either Nurgle (slow, poisons, extremely difficult to kill, gets delicious Nurglings, etc) or Slaanesh (might be a good replacement for Khorne, using Daemonettes as CC and sporting a fast/cruel army).

Space Marines would have something like Cleanse and Purify (bonus to flamers, Librarians, possibly plasma and orbital bombardment), No Mercy, No Respite (Deepstrike, improved transports, more Land Raiders - anything to allow them to take the fight to the enemy faster and more viciously) and maybe Not Another Inch (superior artillery, possibly fortifications, more heavy weapons like Heavy Bolters).

Tyranids would have Seeding Swarms (deepstrike, basically, with numerous short-lived incredibly violent creatures), Without Number (squad size increases, discounted reinforcements, minor advantages in low-tier units) and Spearhead (leaping mutations, more numerous less-customised Carnifexes, designed to break defensive lines)

Of course this is all fairly rudimentary and arbitrary. If they wanted, Relic could even create a sort of downside for each specialisation, allowing those who want to play a generalised/adaptable game to do so.

For example; No Mercy, No Respite might have less access to heavy weapons - the kind that setup, at least - whereas Not Another Inch would lose upgrades for Land Speeders. Minor stuff all around, but if you opted to simply forsake a specialised tree you would get a normal amount of heavy weapons, land speeder upgrades and maybe even minor deepstrike (although No Mercy, No Respite would probably allow you to deepstrike multiple squads/vehicles simultaneously - a unique attribute).

Or, you know, whatever. :D

HiveMind

5th Apr 08, 6:58 PM

People who claim that Tyranids can't be in DoW2 because they wouldn't be interesting enough in the campaign are missing something here, and that's a big something. It's been around just as long as Tyranids themselves, although they weren't always connected. It may be a something that GW is neglecting, but that doesn't stop it from being an awesome something that works really well in campaigns. Got it yet?
The brave Space Marines go in to quell a rebellion, and find horrifically mutated traitors with 4 arms and huge claws. "Oh noes, Chaos!" they cry. You see a psyker talking about how his minions are going well and mind controlling someone. Then, about halfway through, you have to take out the rebel base and defeat them once and for all. After fighting a horde of mutants who sing their praise to their dark masters, you get there, and see a cutscene. Your Marines fight their way in, and then BAM. A brood of Genestealers leap from the shadows and rip them to pieces. Very dramatic, very climactic. Your troops withdraw because they're getting their asses handed to them, and in a later mission you have to kill the Patriarch and the Magus. Of course, the Magus does a Sindri and survives your attack, and a Tyranid fleet has been drawn to the psychic beacon of the Genestealer Cult. The last mission is a desperate survival against the Tyranid hordes, with every other race helping out. Once the survival timer finishes, instead of the expected victory it turns out that the PDF had already been infiltrated by the Genestealer Cult, and suddenly every Guardsman reveals that he's a Genestealer Cultist, lead by the Magus. You have to simultaneously survive against the Tyranids and kill the Magus once and for all.

Tyranids can fill the role of Chaos perfectly thanks to Genestealer Cults, except they also get supremely awesome hordes of bugs and that when the Tyranids arrive.

On a more related note, Relic really needs to take the emphasis off Khorne. Noise Marines would be awesome, especially if they attacked their enemy by blasting them by playing "Love Shack" on full volume. SO Slaanesh. :)

Shakrith

5th Apr 08, 7:09 PM

I really have to agree with HiveMind in that even if they don't include Chaos in the original release, if they do a Genestealer cult I'll be very happy. The CSM are my favourite army but it's the corruption of humanity that makes them most interesting to me, and nobody's ever done a Lost and the Damned style of army before. A Genestealer cult would be very similar in style - cultists, mutants, then bigger and bigger baddies until you get ravening monsters at the end - but as nobody's ever tried a genestealer cult before, it might even be a better option for the first game than Chaos at all. It would even preserve the sense of SM being super soldiers, if they had to fight humans, sub-humans and aliens, grossly outnumbered, rather than identically powerful enemy space marines on Chaos.

EDIT: I didn't read HiveMind's last paragraph, or maybe I did and it tallied so well with my own thoughts that it slipped by my conscious attention. Enough Khorne already! Even Tzeentch is overdone. What I want to see is Chaos Undivided, Slaanesh and Nurgle as the main Chaos variants, because Khorne are so similar to the Orks in terms of their playstyle and fluff. And they're ugly. Tzeentch, I used to be a big fan and I still am but unless they're willing to do a radically different army tree for Rubric Marines et cetera, I just can't see the point. With Nurgle and Slaanesh, you can just modify a basically Undivided army structure with specialist troops and research, and the imagery is all the more evocative for not having been done before.

seven

5th Apr 08, 8:13 PM

Leave out the chaos and do them right.

Have an expansion with Chaos (Marines and LotD) and Ordo Mallus and Witch Hunters.

Versian

5th Apr 08, 8:19 PM

I don't like this idea. It messes with army customisation and forces you to use a doctrine because you like a colour scheme. It just seems inflexible.

Maybe you can create your own Scheme in DoW2 that's based off an existing scheme in terms of balance. For example, want Khorne units but don't like the colors? Make a new scheme that is just like the World Eaters in balance and stats, but looks the way you want to (of course, that'll mean pink berzerkers online).

The Maestro

5th Apr 08, 11:33 PM

I would like to see some different heroes and daemons in the game. Guys like Abbadon, or Kharn, Aihrman (sp?), Cypher, and 1 other greater daemon. Something like Tau has, pick an upgrade and that's the daemon you get. Bloodletters, plague marines and noise marines are also at the top of my list.

Shakrith

5th Apr 08, 11:47 PM

They would never put special characters in, that would just be a colossal mistake. Oh, yes, Ahriman's just arrived for this small border skirmish - and wait, he's been killed.

Special characters, especially the Chaos ones, are so much more powerful than ordinary mortals, seeing as the Chaos ones have mainly refused Daemonhood in order to retain their firm grip on their legions, that they could wipe out your army in seconds.

HiveMind

6th Apr 08, 12:21 AM

The only Chaos characters who could wipe in army in seconds are the Primarchs, which I doubt The Maestro was talking about. Either way, constantly spamming Abaddon would be screwed up and besides, GW has already said no to named characters. They're allowed to do cop-outs like a generic Living Saint and a generic Dais of Destruction, but they can't actually have special characters.

Shakrith

6th Apr 08, 3:25 AM

I'm pretty sure that Abaddon, working by fluff if not TT rules, could take out an army on his own.

HiveMind

6th Apr 08, 3:38 AM

GW doesn't make rules for characters with that sort of power. They can sorta justify C'Tan, because they're weak and hungry after countless millenia, but other than that everyone represents their actual power when they're at full strength. Of course, they do occasionally go insane and make rules for dead characters, but that's as far as it goes.

The Maestro

6th Apr 08, 8:11 AM

Well that stinks if they won't be in the game because of what HiveMind said. That's one of the reasons I started playing with chaos on the TT. Abbadon was a beast though, capable of killing almost everything, but for the most part when I used him, he was the centre of attention and everything was focused on him (tanks, spells, lascannons etc.) so he died within 3 turns.

If they were allowed to do that though, the game Universe at War has a good solution to heroes/special characters. You had to purchase upgrades which effected your entire army or economy, then you could buy 1 hero, maybe 2, that was specific to the chain of upgrades you bought. You could only buy like 6 out of 10 or 12. Then once your hero dies, they stay dead.

Gabriel Angelos

6th Apr 08, 9:36 AM

I would Like to see the Lost and the damed, you know Chaos Imperial Guard.
You get Imperial Guard with tanks and all that with a dark badass touch,
Also Demons , spawns and chaos space marines.

Ifitmovesnukeit

6th Apr 08, 9:43 AM

I think you mean the "Lost and Damned". The Legion of the Damned are a bunch of rogue space marines covered in flames and skulls who do a batman routine in support of beleaguered Imperial Forces.

Gabriel Angelos

6th Apr 08, 9:51 AM

yeah, my mistake :p
Anyhow I think it would be a very solid race having the imperial guard stuff covering the weaknesses of chaos and viceversa.

insect.warfare

6th Apr 08, 12:58 PM

Save them for an expansion and spend a lot of time on them then.

Iwasfrozen

6th Apr 08, 1:09 PM

baztard

6th Apr 08, 2:16 PM

the only real way to get the fuul use out of all the csm ,latd plus the deamons and gods would be to do an eye of terror expansion that just revolved around a battle for supremacy for your chosen god :mecha:

Avykins

8th Apr 08, 8:10 AM

Chaos have got to be an expansion. I mean not taking into account the specific chapters. Just for a "generic" unit, if you add in the gods plus undivided then thats 5 new races. Plus no doubt people will want additional things eg if in multiplayer and theres two charos forces of opposing gods eg Khorne/Slaanesh they will gain bonuses when fighting each other. I personally would like the Hatred rule for Elder fighting Slaanesh. That if they break a squad they will not stop following them until that squad is dead. Plus each gods followers will have to fight differently. This is just a simplified example so dont tear my head off.
Khorne would fight more like Orks, close combat but weak long range.
Tzeetch more like Eldar, very specialised units and a whole lot of special abilities.
Nurgle like Necrons, slow, very hard to kill, hard hitting and would inspire fear.
Slaanesh like the Tau, very fast and cheap, lots of fire power but cant take much punishment.
I would rather see all such things in its own expansion rather then have the lame "weakened stealth based SM" clone like in DoW.

Azarr

8th Apr 08, 8:32 AM

I would Like to see the Lost and the damed, you know Chaos Imperial Guard.
You get Imperial Guard with tanks and all that with a dark badass touch,
Also Demons , spawns and chaos space marines.

The lost and the damned is everything not daemon or chaos space marine. Cultists, mutants, traitors. They are not just a chaos version of the imperial guard. That would be the Blood Pact.

I would rather see all such things in its own expansion rather then have the lame "weakened stealth based SM" clone like in DoW.

I wouldn't call it lame. Though I do hope that they are what they should be in DoW2, I would say it makes more sense for them to be stronger than the space marines as they are empowered by the dark gods and some could easily be veterans from the Horus Heresy.
Though considering what they are doing to the space marines I think that something should happen, hopefully something good.

Though otherwise you might be demanding a tad too much. I would love to see an option for choosing between the four gods and chaos undivided, but pretty much making five seperate chaos 'races' is too much.

Avykins

8th Apr 08, 9:05 AM

Yeah I will agree with that but that is the only thing that will truly satisfy the heretics... errr chaos lovers.

But come on DoW Chaos were pretty weak. From what ive always been told some CSM are like 1000 years old from the original Horus. Are imbued with chaos energy and in some of the books are capable of taking out entire squads of other races all by themselves. In DoW they were way under powered. Cept Berserkers... Those guys just ruled <.<;;;

Gabriel Angelos

8th Apr 08, 9:27 AM

Well in that case lets go Legion of the dammed, I wouldnt mind to have a bunch of crazy guardsmen with tanks and csm.

But serisoulsy I think CSM should be in an expansion rather than in the core game tought, with the release of the new codex wich practically gives you complete freedom among all the troops and cults I think it is going to be really interesting.

Dethklok

8th Apr 08, 9:43 AM

Yeah choose your god at the begining of the game ^^ much like you can choose docterines in CoH. That might actually work really well.

Gabriel Angelos

8th Apr 08, 9:52 AM

If they do implement that then this may be alot of fun, perhaps depending on the doctrines you may unlock troops according to the chaos cult chart of the past codex in wich it was like this:

Tzeench can partner with Khorne and Slaneesh
Khorne can partner with Tzeench and Nurlge
Slaneesh can partner with Tzeench and Nurgle
Nurgle can partner with Khorne and Slaneesh

Dethklok

8th Apr 08, 9:55 AM

Tzeench can partner with Khorne and Slaneesh
Khorne can partner with Tzeench and Nurlge
Slaneesh can partner with Tzeench and Nurgle
Nurgle can partner with Khorne and Slaneesh

Well there is also the problem that some of those factions cannot stand one another.

Tzeench hate the Khorne and vice versa
Nurgle cannot stand Slaneesh and vice versa

But i guess with the most recent codex it doesnt matter. ^^

Enochian

8th Apr 08, 10:13 AM

Tzeentch and khorne HATE each other. Thats the last thing you would see.

To be truthful all of them have been pretty good at working together under abbadon in the fluff and in the ttgame. You can mix and match anything now.

Heck with all the stupid limitations lets see characters. Marines really dont stand a chance against most unless they have them anyways....lol

Avykins

8th Apr 08, 10:13 AM

Huh I never knew that. I mean its well known Khorne and Slaneesh hate each other, same with Tzeench and Nurgle but I always thought they could stand the other gods. In WHF its not totally unheard of for war bands to be composed of those factions. Although to be fair the only warbands that will usually have others at all are Tzeench ruled.

Enochian

8th Apr 08, 10:16 AM

Any chaos god would kill the other just because. BUT Khorne Hates magic. They did have them run together in the past, but now id say just let anyone be mixed. Its the way it has gone. I like the idea of chaos finally realizing there not going to do it alone. As Abbadon has pointed out ohhh about 13 times now...

YaddaYadda

8th Apr 08, 10:19 AM

Actually Gabriel Angelos got it right.

Nurgle is opposed by Tzeench
Khorne is opposed by Slaanesh
Khorne also holds a certain grudge against Tzeench but not vice versa.

Deacon412

8th Apr 08, 10:52 AM

i just want chaos....but not like they were in dow1 they seemed overly crazy in dow1, more demons would be sweet

Terrordar

8th Apr 08, 12:28 PM

Yadda?

Its actually Slaanesh and Khorne, and Nurgle and Tzeentch.

Iwasfrozen

8th Apr 08, 12:53 PM

Whats the thimg with the Black Legion ?
They have Beserks, Rubic Marines, Plauge Marines and Noise Marines as well as all the deamons ?

Terrordar

8th Apr 08, 12:54 PM

They are the EveryMan Chaos Legion. They aren't very popular however. I've only ever seen one Black Legion player.

Iwasfrozen

8th Apr 08, 12:55 PM

But i mean fluff wise ?
How come they can get along ?

Avykins

8th Apr 08, 12:57 PM

Yadda: Khorne is about action and outward displays so views Slaneesh as.. well as a poof. A weak self indulgent whelp.
Slaanesh is about inward pleasure so views Khorne as being a unrefined savage.
Tzeench is about evolution so as Nurgle is about destruction he obviously hates him.
and well Nurgle hates Tzeench for the same reason.

Frozen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legion_(Warhammer_40,000)

In the centuries after the Heresy, the Legion shifted their allegiance from one Chaos God to another as the need arose, giving themselves over as hosts to daemons. With each change in loyalty the daemons of the rejected Power retreated, leaving the possessed legionnaires empty husks. The once vast Legion was being driven to extinction, as both casualties in battle and the aftermath of daemonic possession began to take their toll.

Also apparnetly they broke up into different war bands so I assume different warbands chose different gods.

Iwasfrozen

8th Apr 08, 1:43 PM

@Avykins Thanks mate :)

Andkat

8th Apr 08, 3:11 PM

Every God hates every other God because every God is a power-hungry Warp entity spawned from the tumultuous tides of mortal emotion and bound to leech off of the energies of the mortal world for all eternity. Particularly intense conflicts tend to stem from conflicts in the material conditions that best facilitate some of the most prominent emotional domains of each deity- for instance, Khorne's resident emotions and sensations of Martial Pride, Wrath, bloodlust etc. tend to be promoted by times of conflict, suffering, and strife, whereas Slaanesh's emotional domains of excess and hedonism tend to be fostered in mortal minds and practices under peaceful and prosperous conditions. Likewise, Tzeentchi hope, ambition, and manipulation aren't exactly promoted by the conditions of abject despair, decay, and suffering that Nurgle prefers to promote, especially through plagues (but keep in mind that the Gods themselves don't take anything from physical acts- only the emotions associated with and resulting from them- an army of unfeeling robots hacking at eachother all day long will do nothing for Khorne, whereas a Guard Regiment with a proud and well-maintained martial tradition or an impassioned revolutionary gunning down a group of government troops would- though they would only contribute the infinitely small amount of psychic energy that all such emotions provide to the Dark Gods).

However, this applies primarily in a general sense of God-to-God relations, and isn't all that relevant in the material world- just because all of the Gods are rivals of one another does not mean that their material servants at constantly at eachother's throats. While plenty of tainted armies hold bitter grudges, the Gods and their men are two highly distinct entities- it is perfectly plausible, for instance, to have a martial order actively (and knowingly) devoted to both Khorne and its facet of Martial Pride and Honor and Slaanesh its domain of Perfectionism and Excess, revering the two deities whose aspects mostly closely match their ideals, ambitions, and traditions (comparatively few servants of the Dark Gods are absolutists- most don't worship all of the aspects of their God nor do so to an extreme degree- i.e., most Khorne-worshippers don't spend all day frothing at the mouth and stabbing or plotting to stab others in the chest, most Slaaneshi cultists won't be engaging in hedonistic romps at every conceivable opportunity, etc.).

Likewise, most warbands tend to clash for reasons borne more of material need ("You've stolen a shipment of pixie dust from us for the last time. This calls for a turf war.") rather than out of abstract theology which most servants of the Gods won't have a terribly thorough grasp of anyway ("omfg you serve a God I've never or have only vaguely heard of, clearly I should dedicate every last resource at my disposal to your destruction"). It is perfectly plausible for various servants of the Dark Gods to co-exist, perhaps even on a consistent basis, with one another within a single force or association. The origins, particular beliefs (most servants of the Dark Gods won't know whom they serve by the same names we know them by or know of all of their aspects, methods, servants, etc., and not all see their masters as Gods or care anything for divine squabbles, perceived or real), capabilities, objectives ("destroying the world and conquering the Galaxy" usually isn't why a group of professional duelists starts praying to Khorne for strength and martial refinement), etc. of any individual group dedicated to the Dark Gods varies (and some are fully devoted to more than one without necessarily qualifying as "Undivided", after all) greatly, and you can come up with any number of justifications for a specific group dedicated to a specific God working with or against another group dedicated to a different God.

techsoldaten

8th Apr 08, 6:53 PM

I would like to see a new implementation of Chaos in DOW2 that differs fundamentally from the implementation in DOW.

In DOW, you essentially have an unaligned Chaos warband to work with, despite the army names and colors. There is a Khornate cult within it, which is where the Berzerkers come from. This cult deviates from canon in some important ways: there would never be a Chaos sorceror in a World Eaters army, likewise there would never be Khorne berzerkers in an Emperor's Children warband. A Death Guard army would feature Plague Marines instead of normal CSM, and a Thousand Sons army would have Rubric Marines instead of normal CSM. As for the demons, each army would feature greater Demons appropriate to their patron, and there would never be an Emperor's Children Bloodthirster. While this does not take away from the game, it would be more enjoyable to be able to play as the actual armies in more than name.

In DOW2, a more straightforward approach would be to do the following:

1) Have separate armies for each Chaos faction. Focus on distinctive options for each of the major 4 (World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, Death Guard) and at least one unaligned warband (Black Legion or Alpha Legion). If Relic cannot ship with all 5 of these, ship with a generic warband, the World Eaters and Emperor's Children. There are natural reasons for these factions to be fighting one another.

2) Limit troop options for each army. Instead of putting out generic CSMs for all Chaos armies, include the appropriate troops listed above. Instead of a single greater demon, include the appropriate ones. Instead of horrors for every army, include the appropriate minor demons.

3) For buildings, design separate buildings for each faction. A Khornate camp should be spartan and bloody, while a Slanneshi camp should be depraved and decadent. Each camp should include icons to patron Gods - instead of listening posts, consider piles of skulls or chemical shacks. Feel free to go for a Mature rating with this, it will sell more games.

4) In campaign mode, include more units for people to control, with the expectation soldiers will die. Khornate armies will kill their own and this should be reflected in game. Slanesshi armies are so self obsessed it is unlikely they would retrieve the wounded after a battle.

5) For support, include standard support options like dreadnoughts in the game. They behave erratically on the table top and can be used as a way to draw a distinction between the depravity of CSM armies and the order of Imperial forces. Chaos havoks are also desperately needed.

6) Chaos Warlords tend to be close combat tanks. While the implementation in DOW is good, a better implementation would include options to get them to the battle faster or to better protect these characters. Include upgrades to jump packs, flying disks, terminator armor, combi weapons and other buffs to give them more of a real world feel. Simple chaos enhancements do little but shift some icons on the screen for the character.

M

goat89

8th Apr 08, 6:53 PM

What abou the idea of Corruption?

SubakuGaara

8th Apr 08, 7:31 PM

Chaos undivided is fine with me. Just make them feel different from everything else.

Terrordar

8th Apr 08, 7:40 PM

I don't want to see Seperate Chaos Armies for each faction, as that sets an unobtainable precident for all other factions. The Doctrines system will be fine, thank you.

Shakrith

8th Apr 08, 11:10 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to have different armies, but I would say that Chaos can't be done justice in DoW 2 unless all the races have substantially different sub-factions.

I think if they had an army which was basically Lost and the Damned - traitor guard, cultists and mutants - for the early tech levels, with Chaos Space Marines and Daemons coming in at later tech levels, this would be good. The CSM would therefore all be specialists, and you'd have a branching tree of attributes for your army which you decide on in the army painter.

I'd like to see a God's allegiance applying to buildings and basic troops in their appearance and stats. I don't mean "all Slaanesh are noise marines" etc, just Slaaneshi Chaos Marines are all emperor's children style, likewise Khorne can have bolter troops rather than just berzerkers. Then you get Chosen who represent your style at later tech levels.

I'm more keen to have a thoroughly well-developed sense of Chaos Undivided and how the Traitor Legions operate, i.e. differently to the Emperor's Finest, rather than having lots of God stuff.

Avykins

9th Apr 08, 12:45 AM

True, having Chaos split into 5 would be fun but a absolute nightmare to balance anyway. I could make do with god specification and all you get is say and new squad of lesser demons, a specific greater demon and mebbe a new hero ability or spell. Would reflect your choice well enough without going off the rails.

techsoldaten

9th Apr 08, 1:05 AM

I'm not as concerned about working out the mechanics of balance issues. It would just be great to be able to play the actual tabletop armies in-game without having to resort to a patch. If you want to do this in the current DOW game, you have to build a mod, and there are only 2 mods out there I would consider balanced.

If you think about it, the Codex stuff in Warhammer is pretty well balanced already in terms of troop costs, adjustments to wounds and attacks, along with cost. I imagine this a pretty good real life model developers could use to kick start the process if needed.

Then again, what do I know, I don't build RTS games.

M

nick2512

9th Apr 08, 2:59 AM

erm.....stuffs in Codex balanced already? I don't think so, thats why there is something called 5th edition coming out to re-balance the game.

Chaos got cheaper stuffs even though they're the same gun.
e.g Meltagun. Chaos 10, Marines 15 or 20, how is that balanced.

Chaos got better skills and they're cheaper.

Shakrith

9th Apr 08, 3:07 AM

Chaos and Space Marines aren't the same army. It's why lending money at interest works. The same thing can be worth different amounts in different circumstances.

HiveMind

9th Apr 08, 3:25 AM

Actual Warhammer is way better balanced than current DoW. Because it doesn't use the anti-balance tech system, units are expensive if they're powerful, rather than being cheap because they're high-tier. Also, because it has a simple wound system rather than stuffing around with health, there are fewer variables to get wrong. Marines have 1 wound, toughness 4 and a 3+ save. Done. In DoW, Marines have 390 health, take x damage from this weapon, y from this one and z from this one, Apothecaries have 500 health and take that much damage, blah blah blah. All that stuff hurts balance.

The reason that Chaos stuff can be cheaper than or more expensive than loyalist equivalents is that the Chaos codex is newer. GW have changed their design philosophy between the time Codex: Space Marines and Codex: Chaos Space Marines were printed. However, Space Marine meltaguns are 10 points, not 15 or 20. And what 'better skills' do Chaos Marines have? Also, how is 15 points cheaper than 15 points?

nick2512

9th Apr 08, 3:25 AM

I'm saying that marines' guns should be the same as a Chaos gun, why? Well they bloody do they same thing don't they? Same strength and same AP.

Every points makes a big difference when all the points are combined together. You can have an identical Chaos army to that of an SM's even though the Chaos boyz can have a few more hundred points to spend on something nice like a Predator?

Go on something like "The Bolter and Chainsword" (unless you've already been there) and you'll see some people bitching out the huge points difference between Chaos and SM even though a lot of Chaos stuffs are deprived from SMs.

Oh yer, oops. But have you seen their Termies though? Its cheaper by what? 5 points even though it come with a lot of kitted out stuffs.

Croaxleigh

9th Apr 08, 3:28 AM

Please note that there's a TT forum if you want to discuss TT subjects... DoW2 is not "40k TT: The Video Game", so try not to venture off into comparing TT units when discussing the potential for Chaos in DoW2. Thanks. *smiles*

HiveMind

9th Apr 08, 3:30 AM

Where are these extra points coming from? How are Chaos Marines cheaper? Chaos Marines and Tactical Marines cost the same. Chosen and Veterans cost the same. Chaos Lords are more expensive than Commanders. Chaos Sorcerers are less expensive than Librarians but don't have psychic hoods. Raptors are cheaper than Assault Marines but don't have And They Shall Know No Fear. Chaos Dreadnoughts are cheaper but don't have the hilariously broken assault cannon and shoot their own team. Chaos Predator Annihilators are 30pts more expensive. Chaos Land Raiders are cheaper but don't have Power of the Machine Spirit.

What is your problem?

EDIT: Croaxleigh raises a good point. This discussion was never hugely relevant and should probably get killed stone dead right now.

nick2512

9th Apr 08, 3:37 AM

ah, Chaos and Tac marines cost the same. Yes but they has got a better Ld value and I've played enough games to value that 1 Ld value.

My problem is with that bloody Jerky Johnson or was it Gav Thorpe? But I shall talk no more of TT. Back to DoW2 Chaos.

No more bloody Bloodthirster, I'm tired of seeing a generic daemonic looking thing. How about a Keeper of Secrets or something along that line. How about a Slaanesh army for DoW2? Omg, daemonic but beautiful looking daemons. *drools*

Avykins

9th Apr 08, 4:14 AM

Heh you just want bouncing jubblies in between your blood and cannon fire XD
actually... thats not a bad idea. I second the request for Slaneesh! (never mind the fact that most Slaneesh things are hermaphrodites but hey)

nick2512

9th Apr 08, 5:26 AM

what? Daemonettes are not hermaphrodites, they she-daemon but hey, at least there is a "She" part somewhere right?

Avykins

9th Apr 08, 5:37 AM

Sure. S/he... <.<;;;

"Daemonettes are Hermaphroditic feminine-looking creatures whose seductive bodies are at contrast with their crablike claws. Their features are white, milky skin, bald heads, female breasts (sometimes several sets), narrow eyes, pointed teeth, and occasionally, horns. Their legs end in bird like three-taloned claws, and they may have long scything limbs in place of one or both arms. They are quick, attractive, and fearsome"

nick2512

9th Apr 08, 5:43 AM

Hey, I see the word attractive and quick. But no more of this sexually related stuff and back to the topic at hands because you are popping my dreams Avykins and I hate you for it. :p

Shakrith

10th Apr 08, 2:28 AM

The old daemonettes honestly looked better. The new ones are too gangly, Slaanesh wouldn't make creatures like that, and Slaanesh sure as Warp wouldn't make creatures which would wear anything like the current ones are.

I think Slaanesh, done well, could really be very snazzy. It's very strange how in America it's fine to see gore and dismemberment in a film or a game, but if you see parts of a woman's body, well, that's just immoral. Khorne are just too familiar and they're every kiddie's first Chaos army. Tzeentch comes right after, and besides, they couldn't jury-rig the basic structure of a general Chaos army to make the Thousand Sons work. I really think Slaanesh, Nurgle and Chaos Undivided would be the best three to go with, with a more Lost and the Damned style than CSM. That way you have:

Chaos Undivided: Use of vehicles, elite CSM veterans and lots of cultists. A balanced army, and even potentially with branches into Iron Warriors/Black Legion (emphasis on heavy firepower) and Alpha Legion/Word Bearers (fewer, more elite CSM, with lots of cultists), et cetera. Night Lords could be interesting. Alpha Legion and Word Bearers are my favourites though.

Slaanesh: Fast, morale immune, powerful CSM units, but who suffer from ill-discipline (when morale "breaks" they don't get pinned or retreat, but rather go nuts and launch further into the fight, but take lots more damage). Cultists are very weak and ill-equipped, and you have to rely on fast-moving, hard-hitting Slaaneshi Marines as melee troops with Noise Marines offering medium-range support, who do decent ranged damage (not as much as equivalent ranged specialists from other factions and races) and lots of morale damage. Fast melee daemonettes with not much health. Playstyle: very offensive, focused on breaking enemy morale and cutting them down quickly then moving on, vulnerable to getting bogged down.

Nurgle: Slow, with lots of health, both marines and to a lesser extent cultists. They steamroll the enemy by simply being so hard to kill, and having powerful ranged weapons (Plague Marines have True Grit - more bolter damage, especially in that they fire bolters at close range). Plaguebearers tie up enemies in melee. It would be cool if you could get Nurgle zombies like in the lore, where cultists might be replaced with them altogether, or the Lord might have an ability to raise them. Playstyle: slow-moving, strong at range, not especially bad at melee, but not really quick or offensive enough to use it to its best advantage.

I might note with Chaos Lords, I don't think we should have Lords and Sorcerers quite as sharply delineated as melee and ability specialists, because it doesn't go quite like that in lore. Many lords are psykers to some extent, and besides, most of them have at least a few blessings from the Dark Gods which give them some snazzy abilities, be they powerful Daemon weapons or even daemonic enhancements like flight, fire breath et cetera. I thought how they did the Archon and Haemunculus was about right for how it should work with Chaos. The archon was a combat hero with several snazzy abilities and a powerful retinue, whereas the haemunculus had some really out-there strange abilities and weapons; the Lord should be a generalist hero with lots of gifts from the Ruinous Powers and a big Chosen retinue, whereas the Sorcerer should do weird things like turn people into Spawn, raise the dead as zombies of nurgle, flay minds et cetera.

Tcharzanek

12th Apr 08, 3:30 AM

I think Chaos could take a leaf out of Company of Heroes's book and have different doctrines for each of the four Chaos Gods.

Shakrith

15th Apr 08, 4:53 AM

Has anyone seen some of the new Chaos Daemons stuff? What do you think a Soulgrinder would be like in DoW 2?

Croaxleigh

15th Apr 08, 5:09 AM

Stuff from the Chaos Daemons army is already being discusssed here (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=188550).

Kazetenshu

15th Apr 08, 10:07 AM

As far as seperate dedications of gods, it would be cool, but personaly, i could go without it, especialy with the release of the daemon codex upon the horizon, if anything i would like to see chaos deprived of its daemon entities other then a greater daemon, and would hope to see daemons as an expansion. As for nids coming up in the vanilla DoW2, i dont see it seeing as you would have 2 horde amries as the antagonists. I think that either choas, dark eldar, or crons as the second antagonist. As for the second good guy, eldar or tau would be awsome. IG would be kinda lame cause it would just be imperium versus xenos and heritics.

[edit]-As a thought for the DoW2 chaos relic choice, rather then a GD, how awsome would it be to have Abaddon the despoiler as the relic >.< seeing as Abaddon could very easily take on the TT versions of most of the other races' relics.

AshaD

15th Apr 08, 3:03 PM

Games Workshop will not allow Relic to use special characters from the universe. So Abbadon is a definite no.

Weavern

15th Apr 08, 3:05 PM

That is true, but nothing says they cant create their own chaos lord who looks exactly like Abbadon but is named Nobadda. Then again they broke that with the dark eldar.

Achronos-117

15th Apr 08, 5:46 PM

Who exactly did they broke that with?

akuma85

15th Apr 08, 6:20 PM

I think it's dumb that people will be unhappy because their favorite race didn't made it...
I'm not saying that chaos should or shouldn't be in dow 2.

HiveMind

15th Apr 08, 6:22 PM

Asdrubael Vect actually appears in the campaign as well as narrowly avoiding being in skirmishes.

DarkFireLord

15th Apr 08, 6:46 PM

That is true, but nothing says they cant create their own chaos lord who looks exactly like Abbadon but is named Nobadda. Then again they broke that with the dark eldar. they did not only break it with eldar but with:

1) Ork Warboss = Warlord Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka

2) Tau Commander = Commander Shadowsun

3) IG General = Lord Castellan Ursarkar E. Creed

4) IG colonel Bram = looks suspiciously alot like Colonel-Commissar Ibram Gaunt and they only left the I from Ibram out and took away his hat ;)

so yes they can use the model, just not the name.

I do hope they put chaos in DoW2 vanilla, W40k without chaos is like watching the Transformers without Decepticons, can you picture that?, they are that important to the fans and GW, one thing i do hope if they put chaos in DoW2 is that they get rid of the Cultist, they belong to LatD and CSM find them too weak and too expendable in the old codex and refuse to work with them because of their power pride. anyhow it's the same as having space marines but with Guardsmens as the fast attack / capture units. instead just put some Attack CSM in there, the 5 units max squads.

Shakrith

16th Apr 08, 2:00 AM

DarkFireLord I completely disagree. CSM need cultists to differentiate them from Space Marines. What's the point of having spiky marines in the game if that's the only thing that's different?

DarkFireLord

16th Apr 08, 3:56 AM

they could either use attack squads or attack daemons instead of Cults, maybe your right and they are good for the differences, but remember CSM only diference from SM is Chaos Gifts, Mutation and Demons. that's why they call them Chaos Space Marines, dont take it on the bad side pls, just givings my point of vieuw with some help from the Codex ;).

but then again we cant allways be thinking about the Codex, did you know that a Space Marine/CSM alone is supossed to be able to handle over 100humies and 100orks all alone by himself? of course in the codex it is turned down to make it more balanced, but read some GW books, there is one i read where a single crazied out Space Marine in terra killed over 300 citizens and 100 IG units by himself.

Greets,
DFL

Iwasfrozen

16th Apr 08, 8:51 AM

I agree DarkFireLord Cultists were way out in DC when they where added to the Word Bearers.

toron

16th Apr 08, 12:54 PM

I don't want Chaos in DoW2 because they are just like SM, only warped. You want diversity and you achieve that by having different races-IG, Orks, Tao or Tyranids.

Versian

16th Apr 08, 1:24 PM

But chaos are varied enough. They only need more units. With more units the similarities between chaos and SM dissapear.

verybad

16th Apr 08, 4:42 PM

Believe me, Versian is correct here. Chaos Marines can bring a lot to the table, they weren't really all that well utilized in DOW1 compared to what's available to that faction(s).

Cortlendt

17th Apr 08, 4:32 AM

Chaos daemons instead of CSM anyone?

Croaxleigh

17th Apr 08, 4:57 AM

Chaos Daemons are already being discussed here (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=188550) .

Versian

17th Apr 08, 8:19 AM

No, don't leave out CSM, CSM are a large part of chaos. Just add more daemons and make it more Chaos-y

Azarr

17th Apr 08, 9:02 AM

And beyond that, the 'race' is called 'Chaos Space Marines', not jsut chaos, if you left out them how would the name make sense?

Tesla

17th Apr 08, 9:36 AM

i only demons army would be a interesting move in dow2
but i think, because of the popularity of CSM they would more likely go for a pure CSM army

or even more likely a mix army called simply chaos, but more daemons and cultists please, chaos can still keep their feel and be a very unique team at the same time

Achronos-117

17th Apr 08, 9:56 PM

I just hope that the CSM and Cultist arent invisible grenade launcher noobs.They should also at least take out the shiny upgrades on invisible units, it make you feel less like an idiot, being invisible with a giant red light right where your head is supposed to be. And, how come their heavy bolters were more efficient in killing SMs then plasma guns!?

Imperium Dog

18th Apr 08, 11:39 PM

I am hoping for a 4 god tech tree and a undivided that has more latd units to make it fun because i came for the IG and stayed for the dark gods.O and i did read in a preview and i quote(Yes, you and a friend are going to be able to take on the xeno hordes at your leisure, or team up to let blood for the blood god... )it is that last part about the blood god that makes me happy that they might be in dow2 without an expansion.Here is the link
preview (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=186773)

NeoHunter

19th Apr 08, 12:27 AM

Sorry to say this but that sentence about "blood for the blood god" couldd very well mean we are back to a Khorne worshipping Chaos Legion. Again.

Shakrith

19th Apr 08, 2:53 AM

I think the writer of that article had no idea what they were talking about with "blood for the blood god". If there had been official confirmation, they would have said it, or if they had unofficially been told, they wouldn't have been allowed to say anything at all for fear of Relic's genetically enhanced super-lawyers. What you're looking at is the unfounded speculation of a journalist trying to evoke 40k in as few words as possible.

I sincerely hope that there is no involvement from Khorne at all.

Reaverwolf

24th Apr 08, 5:44 PM

Chaos Daemons page is up!!! I realize this isn't 40k Tabletop Videogame but this whole change significantly influences the game. Here's the preview...
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/daemons/default.htm

Ap0k

24th Apr 08, 5:50 PM

We just had a thread about Daemons. We're not going to have this turn into another one.

NeoHunter

24th Apr 08, 8:02 PM

Maybe give the Chaos Space Marines back there special or heavy weapon options. Like Heavy Bolters, Plasma Rifles and Missile Launchers.

Or, split the Chaos Space Marines into two types. One is your standard Chaos Space Marines squad with access to upgrades like Plasma Rifles and Heavy Flamers only and another is your Havocs with access those nice shiny, corrupted Heavy Weapons like Missile Launchers, Autocannons or Lascannons.

Iwasfrozen

6th May 08, 2:24 PM

I sincerely hope that there is no involvement from Khorne at all.
Khrone is the most popular God, I don't think Relic will leave them out.

Steel*Faith

6th May 08, 3:01 PM

I think Khorne has become a "cliche" and has become boring to some people because of an unimaginative design in many Warhammer games.

I think Khorne worshipers can be really cool and fun to use if done right. That means more brutality, more murder, more blood. I want to see Berzerkers ripping guardsmen's heads off, or Bloodletters cutting people literally in two. I'd also like to see Blood Pact Lost and the Damned units as well.

Of course I would like to see Nurgle and Tzeentch play a greater role in DoW II as well.

Shakrith

6th May 08, 3:54 PM

What I hope is that we get a customisable Chaos Lord in Terminator armour, like the new TT plastic one. In particular, combi weapons and lightning claws are things I feel were really lacking from DoW 1, and chaos terminators in general for that matter, as nothing really says "Chaos Space Marines" better than a strange monstrosity of a weapon with melta, bolter and melee parts all pointing out of a chunky machine.

Ural375D

7th May 08, 6:24 PM

Why don't they just use 5 doctrines and let you call in people (like stormtroopers in COH)

Aegeri

11th May 08, 7:53 AM

I think, given the direction of Dawn of War 2, that Chaos Daemons would work a lot better than Chaos Space Marines on several levels. For one thing, they don't build bases or similar, matching Dawn of War 2s apparent theme quite well. They're also a very cool army and it would mean you would still have Chaos represented, without the complaints people had in Dawn of War that you have two similar sides (Because in the end, CSM are Space Marines, so there is quite a bit of overlap).

We just had a thread about Daemons. We're not going to have this turn into another one

I don't quite understand this. Chaos Daemons are Chaos. They are the most direct servants of the Chaos Gods and now have their own individual army in the TT (which is also a very interesting to play army, considerably different from nearly every other race). It doesn't seem logical to talk about Chaos and not include the new Daemon army in that. I would think if you wanted Chaos represented, having an entirely unique army with no overlap with Space Marines would be the win/win situation.

You get your chaos and you don't get any overlap in armies.

Forge World

11th May 08, 8:09 AM

You are missing what makes CSM interesting for most people; they are a corrupted version of SM, it's not about CSM just being Chaos, they are corrupted by chaos and this draws a lot of players into the lore. Your win/win situation would do well to discourage nearly all CSM fans to DoW2.

Ultimatey CSM are gonna overlap with SM, it's pointless to complain about that because that is how they are designed.

Aegeri

11th May 08, 8:15 AM

Excepting that loads of people did complain about just that and rather repeatedly (I remember). When Relic listened to the whiners, we ended up with Chaos Space Marines being the "spam and delete" army of Dawn of War. This was because to make them 'different' from Space Marines they had all the things that made them Chaos Space Marines beaten out of them: Their vehicle upgrades, their CSM special weapons upgrades and everything else. They just got completely gutted from the original to Winter Assault, then of course everyone realised how silly they were to complain and CSM got back the bits that made them "Space Marines" to make people happy again.

What's the point of fielding a Chaos Space Marine army if people are just going to complain they are marines with pointy bits, to the point where the army gets nerfed into oblivion? You don't have to do any work to differentiate Chaos daemons from any other race, they could play substantially differently to anyone else and they fit the general ideas in Dawn of War 2 very well.

Forge World

11th May 08, 8:18 AM

You are still missing my point, Chaos Daemons are the not ultimate answer to cater for CSM players, which is what you are saying.

Aegeri

11th May 08, 8:26 AM

No, I'm saying they are the ultimate answer to having Chaos in the game, without the problems of the usual discussion that accompanies the "why are CSM space marines" argument that always arises (and raises my blood pressure through the roof). Daemons completely solve the problem, are unique, could play substantially differently than tyranids/orks or space marines.

Ultimately, I like more variation and while CSM are good, there is a reason I don't play Space Marines and Chaos in TT (just CSM). It's because two similar armies are still two very similar armies and less variation is not as interesting.

Plus, the less similar to the original Dawn of War the better. This is a new game and 2 of the 4 original vanilla races are represented. We don't need Marines 2.5 (which ultimately, is what CSM are if you portray them fairly) again when we can have a completely unique army and still appropriately give Chaos representation.

Edit: And in case anyone is wondering, ultimately I would prefer Daemons because of the lack of overlap, but I still think having a 40k game without Chaos of any sort (Either CSM or CD) is like having a movie about Transformers with no decepticons. It's just not the same.

If they do implement CSM, I hope to the Chaos Gods they make them CSM. They should still be space marines and while they have access to units like Possessed, Thousand Sons (which would be kind of interesting in itself), units of Daemons etc, for the love of Khorne remember they are still CSM. They still get missile launchers, plasma guns, heavy bolters and stuff. They don't just 'forget' to bring these along with them because they left them back in their other pants in the eye of Terror.

Forge World

11th May 08, 8:50 AM

CSM fans are not just Chaos fans in general.

CSM is the Lex Luthor to the SM Superman, you simply cannot have one without the other and that comparison doesn't extend to Chaos Daemons who do not have the same connection to SM.

People complain about CSM, in that they are very similar to SM. People complain in general about anything and everything they either do not understand, dislike, have or have not, it still does not change that CSM are supposed to be corrupt SM; this goes beyond "SM with pointy bits" and if people cannot see more to CSM then that, they should make an effort to read up on all the lore... and it is all the lore, stories of betrayal and deceit that make CSM interesting.

If they were not in DoW2 that void cannot be filled with Chaos Daemons (CD), CSM maybe too similar to SM for some peoples tastes but that is how they are designed, I can see more beyond that and it's not very hard to do a bit of a research to see it.

Aegeri

11th May 08, 8:56 AM

It's worth noting you can make that argument about Dark Eldar as well, but we didn't see Dark Eldar in the game until much later down the track. Also, fluff wise, it's the Chaos Gods that are in opposition to the Space Marines, not just CSM and Daemons are certainly a big part of that (especially if you've read the CD book).

And while fluff wise CSM are corrupted SM, to players of a computer game they are just SM with pointy bits. This endlessly came up in vanilla and the result was disastrous. To make CSM different from SM, you have to beat out of them the things that make them SM. This is unfluffy, did not work well mechanically (I still have nightmares over the diabolical implementation of CSM in Winter Assault) and really defeated the point.

You can indeed fill the void for a Chaos army with the Demonic legions. You just can't have CSM. Personally, I think this is better because more variation and an army that plays entirely differently to another is just good for gameplay.

Edit: My experience with the DoW games is that there is a minority of fluff/TT purists (of which, I am probably one of them) and a majority of players who don't care, but just like the game and theme. The majority of players who don't care, but like the game and theme were why CSM in Dawn of War got constantly thrown around entirely different kinds of army every expansion. I honestly think using an army that stands by itself with no overlap is the best possible idea to avoid the same problem again.

Forge World

11th May 08, 9:24 AM

Chaos gods in opposition to SM, obviously. But again you are not taking this beyond "Chaos" in general, I am talking about what makes CSM interesting is more than that but I see you have your blinkers on.

If CSM are just "SM with pointy bits" to Joe Public wont Joe just see the CD as "scary monsters who are angry and not very nice"? I think you should give the gaming community a bit more credit, anyone with half a brain can see the CSM are more than SM with pointy bits and if someone honestly cannot see that then it is not Relics job to spoon feed fluff to the player.

In DoW 1 the fluff for CSM was no more vague then anyother race, I think they did a good job (initially) in keeping it light but informative, if I wanted to know more I went on GW website or read the codex.

I still cannot see how CD can replace CSM other than they are both Chaos, CSM are interesting for their betrayal to the God-Emperor, their constant deceit and trachery, Chaos was just the catalyst.

At the risk of repeating myself; CSM are designed to be similar to SM, they are SM. They are supposed to be similar.

Aegeri

11th May 08, 9:41 AM

But Daemons are not "space marines". The one main complaint with CSM was that they were too similar to SM. I can't see what point you're trying to make anymore, there is no overlap between Daemons and SM. There is a considerable overlap between CSM and SM. This is the whole point and argument against them. Why you think I'm denying this anywhere is weird, you are reading what I'm writing yes? I emphasize this several times and it's the key problem with CSM. To portray them fairly you have to make them like SM. You don't have to make Daemons play like anyone else to portray them fairly (quite the opposite).

Forge World

11th May 08, 10:15 AM

I think that is what you struggle to comprehend; that SM are similar to CSM and vice versa by way of design, in other words it is not actually a problem at all it is intentional.

Your solution is to replace them with CD which are an entirely different play style, do you not think this will alienate the already established CSM fanbase? You are assuming CSM fans will go along with your idea just because they are Chaos related, that is quite ridiculous but then again you think everyone looks at CSM and sees SM with pointy bits so really I'm not expecting you to understand the true depth of my discussion or "arguement" as you put it.

Aegeri

11th May 08, 10:28 AM

A history lesson is clearly required here. Firstly, the "SM and CSM are too similar crowd" was highly predominant through Vanilla Dawn of War. That you have not acknowledged this seems to indicate to me you weren't here during that time, so this is a good summary of what happened to CSM over time (http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=2125271&postcount=6). Here is yet another example and please pay close attention to the date of this post, which is from 2004 (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=31805&highlight=Chaos+Space+Marines+Similar).

So your argument doesn't actually work very well, because I can easily support with countless more examples that what I've described is exactly what happened. So yes, it is a problem regardless of how 'intentional' you argue it is. People don't actually really buy that argument.

Also, I have a 2500 point tabletop Chaos Space Marine army heavily themed around thousand Sons. I also have the Chaos Daemon Spearhead and will build it to around the same points, so I can play 5000 point Apocalypse games. So, yes, I do know CSM are designed to be similar to SM. That doesn't mean I want to have both a SM and CSM army at the same time: one or the other is sufficient. But I would have a CSM/SM army and a Daemon army, because the Daemon army plays entirely differently (plus it complements my CSM).

[Edit: I also play Imperial Guard, but I don't care if they are in the game or not, because I want variation and not specific armies of a composition that I demand Relic to enter into the game. CSM are not as good a choice for a Chaos army as Daemons because they are similar to SM, just in the same way I would hate to see Sisters of Battle in the game because they are also very similar to SM].

Forge World

11th May 08, 11:06 AM

I think you have finally understood what I have been saying all along, that SM and CSM are the same by design and you are also saying you would play a CD army alongside SM/CSM which is a departure from what you said before about CD replacing CSM which was your entire discussion and is now a contradiction of what you have been going on about.

So yes, it is a problem regardless of how 'intentional' you argue it is. People don't actually really buy that argument.

I think your seeing this as some kind of confrontation, you keep saying this is an arguement when I just see it as a discussion. Also no one is trying to "sell" anything to anyone about how the SM are similar to CSM, it's just the way it was designed and people (you) have to live with that.

Jedi and Sith can be seen as quite similar when it comes to watching the two fight it out but it's in the lore, stories and overall conflict where the gold is.

I'm surprised and now feel quite sorry for you if you have invested so much into a CSM TT army and I have to explain the finer points of what makes a SM vs CSM conflict so compelling *sigh*

Aegeri

11th May 08, 11:13 AM

It's like you haven't been reading what I'm writing.

You cannot just mix a CSM and CD army without losing the character of one or the other. CD are an entire army unto themselves, with their own structure and unit diversity (they don't take any CSM for example). You cannot have the same unit diversity from both armies in one race in a game like Dawn of War. It's not practical and will not work.

I also don't appreciate the ad hominem attack either, I know my TT armies and fluff - but this is irrelevant to my actual argument that I've presented.

Forge World

11th May 08, 11:29 AM

It maybe irrelevant but you decided ato bring up TT into the discussion.

CD and CSM in the same game is impossible? Because that is what I thought you meant.

My discussion is SM and CSM can co-exist in DoW 2 and be similar, as they are in TT. This is not a problem, no one is trying to sell this idea to anyone because it simply just is. Shall we meet half way here? I wouldn't mind CD and CSM (along with SM) in the same game as seperate factions if push came to shove. SoB, IG and SM seem to work fluff wise and tactically just like in TT. What are your thoughts?

Frankie7508

11th May 08, 6:05 PM

I would prefer to see a Mix of CSM and Daemons together in order to differentiate them from SM while maintaining the similarities to SM, which is something that some players enjoy. I personally liked vanilla CSM compared to the later iterations, but more demons and of course different Gods would be a great way of separating them from their loyalist counterparts.

Shakrith

12th May 08, 2:38 AM

I actually think that daemons are the least compelling part of Chaos lore, as for some inexplicable reason none of the undivided daemons that exist in fluff make it onto the table top as models which are even vaguely well-made. Bloodletters are good, plaguebearers are good, horrors are good, the old daemonettes were good before they inexplicably started wearing clothes, but they're all very Chaos God. Frankly, I find that Chaos Undivided are the most interesting in fluff, though I'm toying with the idea of going back to TT with a Slaanesh army.

That's what irritates me about daemons. That and the fact that they're entirely one-dimensional.

Cultists are where it's at. The Chaos army should be mainly comprised of cultists and minor daemons (by this I mean Nurglings and the non-affiliated minor daemon swarms in the Lost and the Damned codex), then they get to summon allies from the warp, who may be CSM or the really nasty daemons (perhaps as a one or the other choice), and they'd have some seriously elite troops late game. The CSM would just be completely badass, and termies or obliterators, godlike. The Chaos Lord wouldn't just be a marine with a big pointy helmet, nor would he be a giant daemon prince, but somewhere in between, not entirely human, with customisable chaos gifts, but not a full-blown greater daemon, rather something as big as a Warboss.

Cultists are the heart and soul of Chaos fluff. They're the ones who do the dying while the CSM and daemons do the fighting, they're the ones who choose to fight for Chaos and damnation, and they're the poor bastards you can actually try to identify with.

Thoragoros

12th May 08, 8:03 AM

The problem in DOW1 was that CSM had only ONE daemon unit, oblits and possessed aside. Therefore, if we varied the Chaos faction a little this discussion wouldn't be happening. Relic forgot to add to the Chaos faction what makes it Chaos, a few daemons.

Keep chaos essentially the way it is, add a few more CHAOS units, such as daemons or Lost and Damned, and there you go, they remain Chaos while at the same time keeping variation.

However, we CAN'T have Warhammer without Chaos, that's like haveing star wars without the Evil Empire, or WWII without the Nazis or the Japanese.

Iwasfrozen

12th May 08, 9:07 AM

I think the best way to show Chaos in this game is to use an undivided army (Black Legion) that start of with Cultists and minor mutants then you have the choice to build a certain building (e.g Shrine of Khrone) that would allow you the "mark" of that God, as well as his specialist units (i.e Berserks and Bloodletters.), The relic unit for each Doctrain should be the chosen Deities Greater Daemon.

Shakrith

12th May 08, 4:50 PM

Iwasfrozen, I might point out that there won't be too much building, based on the previews. I think a doctrines system is a bit more likely for that.

I think early game you should have a variety of cheap, weak cannon fodder: swarms of tiny daemons, basically grot-strength but in huge numbers, Traitor Guard (Blood Pact would be nice), who are on par with imperial guard but with fewer weapons options, and mutants, who are weak melee troops not even as good as orks, but not too far behind them.

You'd need to open portals to the Warp to be able to use the more powerful aspects of the Chaos army. Of course, you could have these right from the start at a large cost, like it seems will happen.

You could requisition Chaos Space Marines and Daemons who would deep strike into battle anywhere near a Chaos Icon. The more chaos icons you have together, the longer that distance is. CSM would be stable once summoned, but Daemons would deteriorate while neither in combat or near Warp support.

Let me digress about the Warp. You could have Icons in units, or you could erect Shrines at strategic points, you'd spread Warp Influence, which allows primarily for units to deep strike within those regions. If you could get it by doing things in combat, like erecting altars on the corpses of the enemy, it would be nice and fluffy. However the more total warp influence you have over the map, the more powerful Daemon units, and any marines who are influenced strongly by the warp, are. Your possessed would start off as normal Chaos Marines with a few weird bits, but would gain fire breathing, or flight, or whatever, if you have a lot of Warp energy available. Your Chaos Lord would start off as a guy in especially spiky armour, but he'd be able to use more of his daemonic gifts as your grasp on the Warp solidifies, first awakening his daemon weapons, then any other powers he might have.

The CSM would be at least as elite as the Space Marines, indeed, would be better at close combat, with them having chainswords and bolt pistols (or similar) as well as their bolters. They would lack some of the specialised equipment of the SM, however, but they'd make up for it with their access to gifts of Chaos like the Defilers (which could upgrade to Soulgrinders), possessed, et cetera.

Fightingfirst

13th May 08, 6:00 AM

@Shakrith: I might be missing something here but why would and ordinary CSM carry a bolter and bolt pistol with chainsword? They don't in TT, so i doubt they will carry a bolter plus chainsword and bolt pistol. They'll just keep it to CSM with bolter and aspiring champion with bolt pistol and chainsword. Plus why would they be any better in CC, they are not in TT, I reckon just make them as good as normal marines, they will have access to deamons later on which will be more powerful than SM. Also, why would a defiler be upgraded into a soulgrinder, one is Chaos Space Marines army and the other is Chaos Deamons army. Also, with the Soul Grinder only just being released I doubt it will be included at this stage of production, but I might be wrong.

The idea about controlling more map gives greate access to the warps sounds cool though.

Vrugar Gutslice

13th May 08, 6:27 AM

@ Fightingfirst: It's not as clear in the current CSM codex (allthough still there) but Chaos space marines may either be equipped with a Bolter or a Bolt Pistol and Close Cobat Weapon (Chainsword). This is meant to be for a mixed unit, but in DoW2 it would be better represented as two different tropp types, regular CSM and an assault squad.

Also CSM are no better at melee then regular marines save for the fact that with an assault style setup they'd get more attacks then a regular marine as they benefit from the 2 one handed weapons rule.

Fightingfirst

13th May 08, 6:33 AM

@Vrugar: I know that but I missread Shakrith post as I thought he was implying one CSM would have a bolter and bolt pistol with chaindsword which he would alternate as he got into combat, my bad.

Vrugar Gutslice

13th May 08, 6:36 AM

@Fightingfirst: Well funnily enough the current codex has a CSM squad's wargear to be including all three of the mentioned weapons of Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW. I personally prefer the clearer 3rd edition codex where it clearly states they have one or the other, not both.

Noble

13th May 08, 7:04 AM

Less talk about table top rules and codexes and more about how Chaos will work as a faction in DoW2 please.

Zeru

13th May 08, 11:29 AM

New rules are pretty clear, they DO have both on TT.

But into the discussion:

I know this has been said before, but it is a good idea. :jig:

If Doctrines are in (Which I hope they are) then they should have 1 for each Chaos god, having the faction specific daemons and legion.

Khorne would get World Eaters and Bloodletters, Juggernaught's of Khorne, marks of Khorne, and a Bloodthirster.

Tzeench would get Thousand Sons and Horrors, with Disks' of Tzeench, more sorcerous powers, and a Changer of Ways.

Nurgle would get the Death Guard, Nurglings, and Plague Bearers, their units would get tougher, and a Great Unclean one as their greater Daemon.

Slaanesh would get Emperor's Children, Daemonettes, Steeds of Slaanesh, some Sonic weapons, and of course; a Keeper of Secrets.

---

If you we want variety for Chaos, the Faction system is the best way to do it imo. It gives us a good mixture of Daemon's + Chaos god specific units, and each of them has a unique way of doing things.

The core chaos army would have Cultists, Traitor Guard, Chaos Marines, Raptors, Chaos vehicles, Daemon Princes, Chaos Lords, Chaos Sorcerers.

Looks like a pretty good line-up to me. :lol:

Vrugar Gutslice

13th May 08, 2:35 PM

Sorry, the gist of what I'm trying to get at is perhaps for a "troops" choice of such should be an assault version of a CSM squad with Bolt pistol & CCW as well as the bolter version. Sort of similar to how orks have Slugga boy and shoota boy squads. Of course such a squad may be made redundant by Raptors, but Orks manage to get away with both Slugga Boyz and Stormboyz.

Shakrith

14th May 08, 2:05 AM

I haven't actually even looked at the new CSM codex, what I know is all gathered second-hand from people who still collect TT, but the impression I got is that the CSM had both bolters and the two attacks in CC from having bolter and close combat weapon. If I'm wrong, discard that point. It would be nice for CSM to be more veteran and more CC than loyalist SM.

If they made raptors quicker and more ferocious, it might be good. If they had anti-moreale screams, you know, all that stuff.

LowlyGrunt

4th Jun 08, 12:12 PM

Here's an idea to make Chaos more 'chaotic'.

There could be several different types of greater and lesser demon, all very powerful in different ways, but when you buy a greater demon/lesser demon unit you get a random one. So no 'Summon Bloodthirster' just 'Summon Greater Demon'. You might not get the one you want, you might get one which is very useful for something else, or you might get one totally inappropriate to your situation. It's in the hands of the gods.

The DoW manual said that the great power of chaos comes at a price and is unpredictable - but I never saw any of that, which I thought was a shame.

Terrordar

4th Jun 08, 12:37 PM

In all likelyhood, Chaos wouldn't get Daemons anymore because GW decided that they should divorce the two.

To be honest, I think this takes away from both forces, and it severely disappoints me. In fact, to the point where I stopped collecting my 6,000 point Word Bearer force, and began Orks.

100thlurker

5th Jun 08, 1:05 AM

How about this:

You start out with cultists, mixed with full squads of choas marines. EVERY squad gets a BANNER and a banner bearer.

The BANNER will deliniate what cult the squad follows. When you land them, you can leave them Undivided OR you can select one of the four gods. Doing so will change the visuals and the stats slightly(ie: pluage marines for Nurgle, Noise Marines for Slaanesh, Beserkers for Khorne, Tzeenchian Marines, etc). This will also affect the Daemons you summon.

There, its not perfect, no by far, but it will leave less people left out.

CanadianGaurd

27th Jun 08, 10:18 AM

Okay, I tried to discuss this in another thread of it's own before the almighty Noble locked it and directed me here. Anyways here it is -

I think these guys should either replace the chaos cultists for Chaos in DoW 2 or be a new faction for DoW2 -http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/chaosmilup.htm

Basically they're to Imperial Guard what Chaos SM is to Imperial Space Marines. They even have Chaos Ogryns -

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/renogs.htm

More Chaos Renegade Militia units - http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalo..._RENEGADES.html (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/CHAOS_RENEGADES.html)

akuma85

27th Jun 08, 12:13 PM

@Terrordar

In gw website, CSM still have access to some deamon unit (greater and lesser, nothing in the middle)

Moonhawk

27th Jun 08, 2:21 PM

I would like chaos to have a research in t1 that is regired to move on to t2 that costs zero and you choose between tzentch nurgle khorne shlaanesh and undivided and that changes your tech tree form t2 on

The only reason I can see this not being included is the huge amount of modelling that would have to go into it - afterall each chaos faction is basically a race in itself.

From a practical POV though - it would have been possible to do this in DOW - just look at how the Tau were implemented - you could go with the Kauyon or Mont'ka teachings to give a kroot or tech based army. The chaos factions could just be an expanded version of this - with say chaos templaes dedicated to each of the 4 chaos gods.

Blackheart

27th Jun 08, 3:02 PM

It would probably be easier to do it this way:

When you choose your doctrine (based on CoH's doctrin ability), you choose a mark-- able to choose between Tzeench/Nurgle/Slaanesh/Khorne/undivided. You can go a whole game without choosing a Mark, but then you don't gain any of the advantages-- taht is, the army has all it needs without choosing a mark of chaos.

when you choose Mark of X, you can gain access to their abilities, based on how much XP you've accumulated over the game-- XP is gained from securing points, killing enemies, and having your units killed (with the largest amount being for killing enemies). These levels are earned as an army, per skirmish. Daemon summonings teleport the squad of daemons to any location within line of sight. Once the squad dies, the recharge time begins, and when it finishes, they can be resummoned.

Mark of Chaos Undivided
Level 0: Global increase in ability to resist suppression/morale damage
Level 1: Ability to summon Chaos Furies
Level 2: Increased heavy weapon count
Level 3: Ability to summon Soul Grinder

Mark of Khorne:
Level 0: Global enhanced melee skill
Level 1: Access to Khorne Berzerkers
Level 2: Stronger Melee weapons
Level 3: Ability to summon Bloodletters of Khorne

Mark of Nurgle:
Level 0: Global increased Max HP
Level 1: Access to Plague Marine
Level 2: Access to Blight Grenades
Level 3: Ability to summon PlagueBearers of Nurgle

Mark of Slaanish:
Level 0: All infantry gain access to "Rush them!", a click power that grants a few moments of immunity to suppression/morale damage and increased speed. Long recharge time.
Level 1: Access to Noise Marines
Level 2: Small across-the-board speed boost, including acceleration and turn rate for vehicles.
Level 3: Ability to summon Daemonettes of Slaanesh

Mark of Tzeench:
Level 0: Global armor bonus (decreased incoming penetration)
Level 1: Global increased ranged accuracy
Level 2: Additional Sorcerer Spells
Level 3: Ability to summon Horrors of Nurgle

I didn't want to do Thousand Sons for Tzeench because that's a specific chaos legion.