Perspective on the six squad limit.

[TheLoneKnight]

I apologise in advance about the slightly obnoxious length of this post. There were quite a few things I wanted to address.

I've noticed a fair amount of people getting rather unsettled about the six squad limit reported in the foreign mag previewing DoW2 a short while ago. People are concerned that the scale is becoming smaller; that they won't be able to bring large armies against eachother anymore. I can understand why they are concerned.

However I think these concerns are quite easily cleared away when you stop to think about both the context and the explicit information about this little tidbit.

First, this was a Space Marine campaign preview only. Not a skirmish map, not regular ingame stuff - just the Space Marine campaign. This could mean that the squad limit exists solely in the campaign, an attempt by Relic (implicated by other bits of information in the article) to make the squads in the campaign far more valuable/unique. In other words, it may not be present in normal gameplay.

Second: this is the Space Marine faction. You know, the whole one-man-army group of superhuman killing machines renowned for borderline ridiculous successes across the board? A six squad limit, if enforced outside of the campaign, could indicate that the Space Marines themselves are becoming more akin to what they are implied as in the fluff; superhuman warrior-monks capable of kicking the snot out of most aggressors through superior arms and strategy. Surely you wouldn't need more than six squads if a single marine was tough enough that he actually felt like the super soldier he was, right?

And before you freak out about the other races remember; this squad limit was only mentioned in the context of the Space Marine campaign. There's a good chance it may not apply to Orks or the other races, who may have their own unique limitations completely seperate from the squad limit. What if Space Marines got tough enough to warrant the limit while Orks got even more spammy to compensate? :D

Third: No mention of squad sizes. If you're still concerned about the squad limits, think about the only non-DoW source we have for possible squad sizes; the TT. Orks alone can get up to 30 boyz a mob - even if you only had six squads you'd be looking at an infantry cap of 180 boyz. That seems suitably epic to me. Admittedly it's likely Relic may not adopt the TT squad sizes, but I think given that it's a sequel we should be braced for changes in existing racial stats.

Fourth: there is no mention about whether this cap affects Elites, Support and Fast troop units. Heck, it doesn't even mention whether or not it affects anything but Tactical Squads - or at least I haven't heard anything to the contrary. It could just be an anti-spam mechanic. Relic seems to have implemented a few of those lately, after all.

Finally it is important to remember that DoW is still quite early in development. The fact that we don't see randomised unit appearances in any great amount in the screenshots is indicative of this (particularily since CoH, the most recent game made with the engine, had this in abundance and it was stated in the preview that they were already adopting CoH's glorious unit response system to some degree) so there is a good chance that Relic may change this cap or create an option to change the cap (like quickstart or high/low res) should they feel that some people will feel so strongly about it.

That's it, really. There are other things making people unsettled, especially when comparisons are made between CoH and DoW, but since this was one of the more concrete examples of a dramatic change I figured I would share my view on it. Perhaps some of you hadn't stopped to consider that it might not be as bad as you feared.

Have any of you had similar thoughts on this? Do you guys really think that a six-squad limit, even if it exists outside the campaign, will really be as bad as some people are inclined to believe?

Personally I think the most curious implication by this arbitrary squad limit and the setup of the campaign is the likelihood of buildings being downplayed. It would be pretty bizarre to undergo missions with arbitrary troop caps of 1-3 if you still had a large base to defend, after all, and if bases are removed during the campaign there's at least a decent chance that they may be replaced by some other mechanic (critical locations becoming "drop zones", for example) that will encourage more aggressive actions. Who knows?

[Logga]

To be honest I never have any more than six squads out for any race in DOW. I would be fine with 6 squads max only if it did not include vehicles.

[aerziel]

hmm too bad most of the members here will be too lazy to read this.

EDIT: almost forgot good points loneknight

[FIG]

It doesnt matter because someone somewhere in this community will mod in the ability to use more than six squads and we all know it.

[Pocktio]

Of course remember that the more squads - less performance. That may also be a factor, if they have huge armies the system specs go up up UP.

[ainwood]

It doesnt matter because someone somewhere in this community will mod in the ability to use more than six squads and we all know it.
That really depends on how its handled in the memory management.

In Civilization 3 (for example) there were a lot of data stored bit-wise in memory - a 32-bit long integer was used to store the race. Hence, there was a hard 32 cap.

6 does seem like a strange number, from a memory management perspective for a hard-cap. Most likely it can be modded, but if (for example) they were storing some data in 32 bit, with 4 bits for each squad, 4 bits for the race and 4 bits for the team, then that indeed would make a hard-cap at 6 that was hard to mod around.

[Oxyde2]

I'm willing to bet the six squad thing is for Space Marines only. They don't need more than six squads to win anything below a full-on Hive City assault. Other races will most likely get more squads.

And as for base building, I hope it's downplayed or even eliminated altogether in favour of a more streamlined system of capturing/holding buildings/areas that act as the current Critical Locations. Nowadays you can just forget about the rest of the map and concentrate on wiping oout the enemy base, I can't see much strategy in have only two points of interest in a map and the rest being just "those points you cap to get more units".

[Imperial Dane]

Looks like many of the thoughts i had myself on the subject, so i heartily agree with you.

[Dark_Avenger]

I like the squad limit, In TT the limit is 6 squad choices.

Also for you people wondering about IG, Im pretty sure the rule for them is that 1-3 squads = 1 squad choice so maybe Relic will do something like that for them.

[Octopus Rex]

While those are all fair points TLK, and the whole six squads thing may have been taken out of context, I quite like the idea of only having six squads. Combine this with the fact they'll be having named squad members (again, possibly/probably campaign only) and it would lead me to think they are trying to make you give a shit about your troops.

Large armies are full of expendable troops. Your economy is floating to buggery and you stick them on auto-reinforce. Some survive, some die, meh. Compare this to the beginning of the game, especially the capping/harass segment, where you take much more care over every squad and to lose just one squad can have serious ramifications. Spending your limited resources on upgrading a low end squads is not an easy choice to make, and if you then lose those upgraded troops it's even more of a blow.

I hope, if executed right, only having six squads/mobs/groups may add more intensity, make the squads matter more, rather than the desensitized loss of having one squad out of 10 killed.

Of course, we are lacking in real information, we'll have to wait and see, but "oh cool" was my initial gut reaction when I heard that piece of news.

The modding section is continually bombarded with new modders wanting to make the battles bigger by increasing the pop caps, but after doing that you realise that it's a bit.....meh.

[Darzok]

Its all down to how they scale the unit's i mean 1 whole Tac squad say 6 member's can fight on even ground with 1 mob of orks say 30 then it will be great fun and be fairly balanced.

The game looks great form the few screen shots and give's me the feeling its alot closer to been out than we think i mean the Orks and SM seem to be all most done if not fully done.

[archaon376]

I agree with the person who said that they want the whole base-building mechanic removed.

I am hoping that this game is more akin to the tactical tabletop skirmishes while making use of a computer's ability to use more complex calculations.

[TheLoneKnight]

To be perfectly honest, Rex, I'm with you. I wouldn't complain one bit if the scale was reduced a bit and squads were made more customisable/important. It'd be nice to care a bit more about a squad than just how long it can keep reinforcing on the move.

However I was also rather bored last night and it seemed like alot of people were uncomfortable with the implication that DoW2's scale might be more limited than DoW so I figured I'd state the obvious and see what the response would be.

It might be kinda nice if Relic implemented some sort of uncapped match for those occasions when you simply must spam boyz until you've got a sea of them, though. :D

[scope2006]

I agree with the original poster, this cap wont include vehicles, and possibly not elites or HQ choices. Also in my experience with early previews of games in progress is that the information provided is inaccurate, exagerated or plain incorrect.

I remember a certain article of a dark crusade preview which claimed the demon princes synch kill vs a squiggoth involved him riding the squigs back and decapitating it...

[ARMYguy]

Just to comment on people not wanting to build a base. That is what makes RTS games fun in my eyes but more importantly, some races like IG need their bunkers and other base mechanics to make them more unique and more defensive, and that is not something i want to lose by chopping it out completely. A race like SM does not need a base, but getting rid of bases for every side is bad.

As for the squad limiting thing, i am on the side of lets wait and see what it really is like before we all jump to conclusions...

[TheLoneKnight]

What if IG instead could freely construct minor defeneses like razorwire or trenches instead of building factories and that sort of thing? That way they're aggressive until they get a point they need to hold, then dig in to make it easily defensible, then head on to other points as necessary.

'course I don't actually think base building will be completely removed, but there are ways IG can get defensive advantages without having to construct factories/barracks that double as bunkers.

:)

[archaon376]

Just to comment on people not wanting to build a base. That is what makes RTS games fun in my eyes but more importantly, some races like IG need their bunkers and other base mechanics to make them more unique and more defensive, and that is not something i want to lose by chopping it out completely. A race like SM does not need a base, but getting rid of bases for every side is bad.
Well, I don't want base-building because I want the game to be more of a tactical skirmish as opposed to resource managing and base building. Though the base concept shouldn't be entirely removed. I mean, of course there should be scenarios where a base is being attacked. In fact, I would like as many scenarios as possible (recon, take and hold, capture the ____, assassinate, assault, etc.).

I think there should be a points system where each player can decide on what to take into the battle. Hell, if there are attacking and defending sides, the defenders could even be able to construct defenses in their deployment zone - for example, bunkers as you say. Additional defensive structures could include trenches, walls/barricades, turrets, mines, etc.

I think most DoW fans would disagree with my views.

[Faceless]

Bah. it can be modded to be bigger. if DOW2's engine is anything like COH, tweaking stats like squad cap should be fairly simple once we know where to look.

[Mokino]

I'm hoping base building still exists but it's more like CoH. In CoH, bases are secondary to ground control in general. You can wipe out your opponent by destroying everything he has or you can win by holding onto the majority of critical points for an amount of cumulative time. With the right mix of troops losing your base doesn't mean you've lost the game.

Bases themselves are only 2-3 production buildings, defenses and medical stations. I'm hoping the SM play similar to the British in CoH, except all of their production "buildings" function like the commando glider (one time air deployment. Unable to move once landed.)

For the IG, let basic guardsmen squads construct trenches, and sandbags/barbed wire. Perhaps have heavy weapons teams build gun nests and heavier stationary weaponry.

[Gadianton]

Some good thoughts so far.
Lone Knights idea of an option to have an "uncapped match" would of course be called Apocalypse.
The only reason I am worried about change is that I've spent time getting used to our current version. Of course, this is foolish, thus fleeting and I am looking forward to changes that could bring us more strategic games.
I too like the idea of a smaller scale, if its done so that we can care more about the units. One of my favorite parts of the campaign is the honor guard concept as I come to think of them as my elite crack force and like guiding them to the important objectives and battles on the map. Helps create something of a story, which a battle should have. If a narrative element can be added somehow, I'll be so happy.

[LoRd KoRn]

Other than in QS I don't see much more than 6 squads (on the SM side or any other for that matter) in casual DoW games anyway. Yeah, maybe the overall number of units will be less than in DoW but I bet that the fights between less units are more intense in DoW2. For Epic scale and 5 fps you can still play 2vs2 3vs3 4vs4 7vs1 games, unless that was changed too ofcourse.

[Hirmetrium]

Your lucky to have six squads early game, and late game 6 is about how many you have. Terminators, Assault Terminators, 2/3 Tacticals at max, Grey knights and maybe some assault marines if your really pushing it.

[Mirage Knight]

The 6 squads thing leads me to believe that Relic might actually implement Force Organization rules from TT, with the squads being your Troop Choices :)

Armies in W40k TT can have the following:

2 HQ Choices (eg: Force Commander, Librarian)
6 Troop Choices (eg: Tacticals, Scouts)
3 Elite Choices (eg: Terminators, Dreadnoughts)
3 Fast Attack Choices (eg: Land Speeders, ASM)
3 Heavy Support Choices (eg: Predators, Land Raiders)

This would make me and other fans of TT very happy :up:

[ARMYguy]

The above post would make me very unhappy if that was the way it was because as it is i feel like i am on a leesh as to what i can build with the hard caps as is already, that just makes the game even more controlled as to what i could build, and that is bad. Why do you think in cnc3 there are so many more strats for the same stock GDI army than say IG in dow? It is because of the way you are forced to build a certain unit or use a certain strat cause there is not much to choose from, and TT rules (i am looking at what is above cause i dont play it) seem to just tell the player, ok you can make only this set of these units. So every MP game will be the same, with the same units, much like it is now.

This is why games like COH are superior. There are caps but they are not insane and retarded like in DOW, thus why there are WAY more strats you can open with, well maybe not with brits but they were designed that way. Thats why COH is rated much better than DOW ever was, because it does not limit you, at least not in an insane way. It does limit your arty like hummels or priests to 3 but who can live long enough to mass 3 of those anyways :)

The ultimate is sup com, where there are virtually no hard caps what so ever, and the game is still awesome. You can even make armies of just huge experimentals if you wanted, and the game is not BS because there are still many options to kill the things.
I wish DOW could just be made like this, but after reading the thread on the WA debate and caps, it seems people that play DOW seem to like having mirror armies every game and the same strats... COH ftw :)

[HiveMind]

No, TT's soft cap system allows heaps of customisation and freedom. For example, Space Marines can get an army of Scout snipers lead by a single Captain (Force Commander), a horde of 140 Marines led by 4 characters of your choice, an all-bike army, an army of assault marines and jump packing characters, an army with 26 vehicles, the list goes on. The FoC does not limit your customisation or put you on a leash in any way other than preventing you from spamming endless waves of Monoliths or Obliterators. The only restricted army is Necrons, because they have 1 troops choice, 1 viable Elites choice (unless you take a flayed one assault army, which is a so-so fringe build), one good Fast Attack choice and one good HQ choice, but that's due to balance and the fact that Necrons haven't been updated in something like 8 years.

Personally, I very much doubt that they'll be putting in a 6-squad limit. With the current squad cap model, making Marines cost 3 squad cap gives you 6 squads. Relic knows not to enrage the QS players by preventing extreme spammage.

[Mirage Knight]

I'll second that, HiveMind. Coupled with TT's weapon and unit stat system, FOC rules actually encourage unit diversity and specialization.

[ARMYguy]

Yeah but i mean in TT its good cause there is much more things you can customize your stuff with. I am saying that it would be bad to restrict DOW with TT caps cause there is not hardly anything to customize things with. If my IG had meltas and flamers and customizable sents and lemens and all the different baneblades to choose from, like in TT, then bring on the 6 squad cap cause i could still change strats and builds by simply changing what load outs i have. Guess what, DOW already limits everything by leaving out so many weapon and customization options, so this just makes me a little scared, thats all.

Of course, if this is single only, then it would be kind of cool. I am strictly talking MP.

[Octopus Rex]

"I am saying that it would be bad to restrict DOW with TT caps cause there is not hardly anything to customize things with." - you don't know that there'll be hardly anything to customise with. Maybe there will be....Remember, this is not "DOW but only six squads - enjoy", it's DOW2.

[ARMYguy]

Indeed, i can only base things off of the past 4 dow games. But you are right. Reguardless it does look like it will be fun, i am just a little worried about being TOO restricted with what i can make...

[{OGS}Sirius]

So will every soilder in that six sqaud have a name? like i read before? ALso will we be able to custom name our peoples or evens sqauds online?

[Mokino]

At least the commanders are going to be named, but it sounds like all of them will be.

I'm betting some sort of random name generator will be used online, but maybe you can customise commanders.

[DoW2]

I hope it's respective to the race you're playing. Maybe Orks get more squads, or Orks get more units per squad.

Somehow I imagine battles across worlds and epic proportions won't be done with 6 squads of 8 Space Marines, unless it's representative of certain fluff. You know, small contingent of super soldiers sent to pacify enemies against nigh-insurmountable odds.

Thats why I assume, and pray that one way or another, Orks and IG get more units and Space Marines are once again the elite for they should be. All with respect to game balance of course.

Also the description of the game in DoW2.com makes it sound like you're with your recruits until they're veterans. Maybe we'll get some squad recognition like EndWar? And other game that I forgot.

[TheLoneKnight]

Uncertain. It would be kind of interesting if you had unique names for each squad member, but I doubt you'd see that kind of thing outside the campaign.

It would be pretty awesome to have randomised (or even player created) Commander and Squad names, though; Zog's Footsloggers, Amrachael of Tetrius Squad, Jorgud's Flesh Eaters and that sort of thing.

[CrimsonAngel]

I would say we wait until we see more of the Alpha and even the BETA build before commenting on game mechanised, but i will say this i don't think we will have TT premade army thing and that is all you get kind of fights because that would suck.

If your build is wrong well GG you can't win.

Having and Army you can change around for the moment would make for a more fun game.

So we wont see a "Buy units from the start",but kind of things maybe we will have the ability to make templates and some cosmetic things, but i think most unit upgrades will be done in game.

After all CoH and Dawn of war is fun because you try and harass and take points from one another if that is gone the game gets a bit more dull.

Yet let's wait and see.

[Shakrith]

I hope that the 6 squad limit refers to 6 squads of space marines, and that they are unstoppable engines of destruction compared to other troops: I think 6 squads of marines versus a few hundred orks is a fair fight.

As far as naming goes, I hope each squad gets a randomised name and can be renamed if you so wish, and ditto for commanders. Veterancy is a bit rich considering that SM have been fighting so long a few more battles won't teach them anything, but if the upgrades they acquire, the damage they take, and special things they learn or find - for example, first encounters with X enemy (they're not going to become any more veteran at killing human heretics or Orks or whatever, but Slaanesh cults, or Kults of Speed, in particular, for example, might teach them something they can use against that specific type of enemy), or artefacts they find.

[Frankie7508]

As many others have stated, I believe that the 6 squads if true at all is probably for Singleplayer/Co-op only. Also, the whole co-op for SM/Orks ONLY, seems to be false if you look at the site. Look at the verbage on the website:
"Experience the intimate brutality of battle as you play through your chosen race's epic campaign. Clash with enemies on battlefields ablaze with visceral melee and ranged combat. Lead and develop your squads from raw recruits into the most battle hardened veterans in the Galaxy."

[Versian]

Lead and develop your squads from raw recruits into the most battle hardened veterans in the Galaxy

Oh yeah! Squads gain veterancy. I wonder if it's only stats or we actually see differences.

[Mokino]

Where I could see a points system being used in MP is wargear.

Each player gets a certain ammount of points to spend on commander equipment before a match. This equipment won't make commanders overpowering but specialises them in different areas.

[Inst]

Uh, I don't get it. How often in competitive play do you exceed 6 squads anyways?

[DoW2]

Often enough to warrant discussion on the issue obviously.

They're recruits in DoW2, so - I guess fresh out of the Fortress Monastery or wherever they're trained.

If it's less building/base oriented I wonder if we're going to see more WiC type gameplay. Where almost everything is air dropped or trucked in.

[Versian]

If it's less building/base oriented I wonder if we're going to see more WiC type gameplay. Where almost everything is air dropped or trucked in. This happens a lot already. Look at how SM build anything. Infantry is dropped in pods, vehicles are taken down in a Thunderhawk. This is one thing about DoW that makes it a lot cooler than other games.

If you want more DeepStriking units, that's another story.

[DoW2]

Vehicles aren't taken down right into the field. Every unit in WiC is called in. They don't appear magically from a building or some sort. That's what I meant.

[StickMan9000]

EDIT:
I really need to read the whole thread first to see that people are already talking about World in Conflict ;)



LoneKnight,

You bring up an interesting point about a possibilty of there being no bases in singleplayer. It would also be interesting if this were applied to multiplayer as well. If you or anyone else has played World in Conflict, a system like that where you go capturing points around the map and if you are playing the infantry role, can use the surrounding buildings and forested areas for cover. There is absolutly no base building either; you spend requisition points on units, and they are delivered to your spawn point.

It will be really interesting to see how Relic is going to handle things in DOW2 :)


-Stick

[TheLoneKnight]

While I wouldn't object to a lack of base building in DoW (upgrades/reinforcements could easily be managed via a submenu of some sort), I would hope that the reinforcement zones are denoted either by a universal "drop zone" you secure as a strategic point or, more likely, some small area near the corner of the map that is considered secure enough territory for vehicles/infantry to arrive from off-map.

I imagine that Relic will still include bases of some sort, though, simply because DoW/CoH both made a fairly big deal out of structures/tiers and limiting what units you could bring out and when. For the moment I'm just hoping that buildings are more minimalistic than they were in those games. In both DoW and CoH I found base building to be absurdly clumsy and generally unpleasant. Here's hoping this time around we just get a single structure we need to keep alive and no need to build anything but fortifications. ;)

[Croaxleigh]

More than likely, the "named squad members" thing is campaign only. While it sounds like it would add great immersion to the campaign, I imagine that MP and Skirmish will be a bit more generic.

That said, I agree that either the 6 squad thing is campaign-only or applies only to basic troops... perhaps they'll have different caps similar to the force organization charts (though probably not exactly like them) so you'll have 6 basic troop units, 3 elite units, and so many light and heavy vehicles... or something like that.

[Shakrith]

I agree. No base building beyond the strictly necessary - a few drop sites, a few defences, listening posts...

[Compel]

Well, the way I was reading it, I was thinking your "6 squads" would essentially be 6 'Honour Guard' squads that can be upgraded.

Like, think of the Commander upgrades, but you're able to do it with your honour guard.

I don't think it'd be actually 6 squads only. I mean, remember, even in tabletop when you have 6 tactical squads, you can also have another 3 veteran squads, 3 devastator squads AND 3 assault marine squads. So it's (potentially) 15 squads, not 6.

[dark frontier]

maybe its going to be like TT
Maximum 6 basic troop type squads, max 3 heavy support type units (e.g SM Devastators, Land Raiders etc), max 3 elites, max 3 fast attack etc

[Dark_Avenger]

and 2 HQ choices

[Cadian_cameo]

I'm ok with the 6 squad limit as long as it's only for the Space Marines, and it's compensated by the fact that Space Marines are extreme mass murder machines.

Factions like IG, Orks, Nids(?) should be taking constant and overwhelming losses even when they're winning.

[Phazon]

While I haven't read the thread in its entirety, I am just wondering if anyone has realised that this may be due to physical and memory limitations?

Think about it, the amount of custom content (including animations, models and textures) that would have to be used for each race (assuming there will be 4 and they have their dramatic differences) would take quite the tax on memory when rendered on such a high-quality engine.

Think about it. Unlike Company of Heroes where all infantry were on common ground (they all used similar animations when moving and fighting) and there was no melee combat or sync kills to worry about, there would of been a bit more room available.

[@li3n]

If they make the game too much like the TT then it's not going to be a RTS, but a RTT... and while i wouldn't mind a WH40k RTT i'd rather they'd make a new game, and keep DoW a RTS...

I'm really hoping that taking out buildings won't lead to also removing gaining resources during gameplay or building new squads...

[Fightingfirst]

Lead and develop your squads from raw recruits into the most battle hardened veterans in the Galaxy

Does that mean in the spacemarine campaign you will start with an army of scouts and then as they develop they become marines, then veterans, then terminators?

[archaon376]

If they make the game too much like the TT then it's not going to be a RTS, but a RTT... and while i wouldn't mind a WH40k RTT i'd rather they'd make a new game, and keep DoW a RTS...
I would LOVE for this to end up as an RTT, since RTT is a dying/dead genre with the peak being the Close Combat series (though it is still alive and development is still in progress).

I simply don't understand why developers don't jump into tactical gaming instead of giving us the same rehashed stuff.

[Richdog]

Same rehashed stuff sells... and that's business. :(

[jon_the_d]

but groundbreaking wonder stuff sells better!

If they can make a whole new game with a whole new feel, that doesn't suck, they'll be on to a winner.

RTT sounds ace to me.

[archaon376]

Same rehashed stuff sells... and that's business.
It takes an entrepreneur to drive the market forward. Not to mention make tons of money...

[crusader10k]

for me, relic is cool enough that they would know whats best. if they say six squads, and they think that game will still be fun enough, then fine, ill buy it.

good points though

[CrossLight]

Blizzard is the king of making rehashed games, and yet they sell millions. Nothing they have made is new or innovative, they just made what was already done, very very well and thats all that needed to be done. For them at least.

[firestorm]

yes, but that's the whole point of blizzard games. note how many people complain about balance in starcraft. now note how many people complain about balance in dow.

as for the 6-squad limit...that's not too much. i mean, you won't get more then that out anyways.

[Heavenly King]

I think that a lot of people (me included), like DOW, and its expansions because of the incredible universe of Warhammer 40000, but also because of its gameplay. There have been a lot of games about WH 40000, but only the DOW franchise has reached an spectacular level of success, and that is because of its unique, inmmersive, brutal gameplay. With this in mind i think that removing base building could be a very serious error because it has the potential to completely change what the game is about, also the limited squad cap, if true, could severely hamper the ability to have the massive brutal battles most gamers like. Also this game, is a strategy game so losing troops (a lot of troops) is a normal part of it, because supposedly you are fighting in a GREAT CONFLICT (GREAT WAR=GREAT CASUALTIES) a veterancy system could be more than enough to allow players to feel more connected to their battle hardened troops (Although They will all die in glory if that means to stop an attack on my base, or to utterly cripple an opponent war effort).

Also about using many of COH mechanics, I’m in for it as long as it doesn’t change what the game is about, carnage and conquest. It is important to remember that this is DOW, not COH in SPACE, I could not be good if the two games were the same, besides each one has its own approach an flavor and they should stay that way, COH with its hyper-realistic gameplay, rules for resources, abilities and reinforcing, and DOW with emphasis on massive sci-fi battles among aliens, humans and deamons in the far future, with its mighty infantry units (not pinnable, It could be funny watching a SM pinned down, and for IG, a commissar could kill the first man that refuses to advance because of enemy fire), it’s reinforce everywhere policy, and most importantly dark fantasy factor.

I know that is not like the tabletop game, but we are here to play the computer game, the DOW we all love, not a digitized version of the tabletop game (which could be another game altogether, more similar to Squad command for the PSP and DS).

Please Relic designers don't repair what isn't broken.
Like someone in another forum thread said:
We want DOW, but better, bigger and with more story behind it

[LoRd KoRn]

You can expect DoW2 to be different in many regards, if it is true what they are advertising.
For 3 add-ons we have the same gameplay, based on spam, obsolence and only few options due to restirctions and limited usefull alternatives. I would be happy for a change and fresh gameplay mechanics as long as it has depth that really entertains on the long run and not just for the first 5 hours.

[nick2512]

The 6 squads make sense to me, since the Codex Astartes said that there are suppose to be 6 tactical squads in the Battle Companies.

2nd-5th Battle Companies.
Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary and Standard Bearer (Librarian can be lent to a company.)
6 Tactical Squads
2 Assault Squads
2 Devastator Squads

Supports
Dreadnoughts, Rhinos, Bikes and Land Raiders.

So the 6 squad limit might make sense if those 6 squads are Tactical and you can have another 2 Assault Squads.

Relic hasn't studied their fluff though. It is because the company that were in SS is called the 9th company. The 9th company doesn't have access to Land Raiders or Tacticals or Assault squads. Its a bloody reserve company made out of 10 Devastator Squads and since the Blood Ravens is a codex chapter, they must follow the words of Guilliman.

[fs_xyz]

Anyone ever played Ground Control series ?
That game had no base building. You purchase reinforcement instead by capturing tactical points.
I think that game can become a good example on how this game will work without base building.

And no, Terminator armor and Land Raider are still build able. But the production speed is very slow due to many forge worlds break up from Imperium during Horus Heresy.
Plus, if you live in 40K universe and end up looking how techpriest works in creating stuff. You probably will scratch your head for seeing those techpriest praying when bolting something or oiling something.

[Thorgith]

Yea I played Ground Control, had some very nice and unique aspects

DOW2 should be something like too imo, i mean, when you go into a battefield, you dont go in to pitch tents and boil some tea, you go in to KILL SOME XENOS SCUM!
So maybe you have strategic and reinforcement points, where you get requisition yadada and strategic, and where you can deply reinforcemnts and the reinforcement points (pretty self explainatory)

i can just imagine different races coming in with different stlyes at their reinforcement points,
eg.

Spacemarines in drop-pods/thunderhawks
IG in dropships/valkyries
Eldar in webways
Chaos through warpgates
Orks through roks

would be pretty awesome

and the 6 squads seems pretty decent, when playing DOWXP at most i have 2 assualt termie squads, 1 grey knight squad, 1 devastator squad, 2 tactical squads, that's 6 squads right there, and each squad has about 5-6 members only, resembling TT quite accurately.
Maybe we're just not used to comprehending how little squads we actually have in DOW :P

Gabriel's company is the 3rd company anyway, (love the gold crests they have), and since he IS commander of the watch it seems logical that he have a couple of terminator bodyguards

[TheLoneKnight]

For stuff like that I'd suggest posting in the fluff forum. The local moderator, Andkat, happens to be a fairly big fan of the Adeptus Mechanicus and could easily answer your questions in obscene detail.

That would also be preferable because we've spent several posts teetering even further off-topic, although I imagine there's not much left to discuss unless people are still concerned about the six squad limit in the campaign and its implications.

[nick2512]

I don't take this 6 squads thing seriously, it might be change and it might not, who knows? Only Relic knows.

[Imperial Dane]

Uhmm.. i'd say people are putting too much into this without thinking about it.. no bases ? Ahh, that is being a bit too hasty, besides it was the space marines that were in focus, 6 squads for them is easily imaginable.

[blueboy93]

Six squads of 6 to 8 Marines. (Heard somewhere that the size of squads has been put down, more like fluff)

Is still 30 + marines..and they've been buffed to the max. SM's now are what they should be. Killing Superhumans. Also, this has only been said for the campaign, nothing about online, skimrish..etc.

[Croaxleigh]

Ok, folks... I've had to do a little bit of pruning here, because almost this entire page was a bunch of posts that had nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand. As TheLoneKnight says, if you want to talk about fluff issues there's an entire forum (http://forums.relicnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=108) dedicated to that and I'm sure that they'd love to have you. Along those same lines, if you want to talk about Soulstorm and its story then there's yet another forum (http://forums.relicnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=90) that's full of information on that.

Please keep it on topic. There are at least a few more magazines with DoW2 previews coming out soon, and they might follow in the vein of the first two by revealing more about thecampaign. So if it starts to seem like this thread has been done to death then pick it up again when there's more info available on the 6 squad limit.

[Droids_R]

Six squads of 6 to 8 Marines.

Actually, the fluff is 5 or 10 Space Marines. It's one of their many rules of the Codex Astartes, although I'm not sure how much Blood Ravens follow those rules.

Also, I highly doubt this 6-squad thing will exist anywhere outside of the campaign. We'll wait and see.

[blueboy93]

Depends on the chapter, Droids_R

[Deathwatch]

When I read that six squad comment I was thinking purely in terms of the campaign, and I liked it.

A greater emphasis on each squad (or even squad member) is something that should be in place given the Marines' fluff and what we should expect from them. Hopefully it'll mean a more concentrated compaign too, instead of mindless "build, waypoint, upgrade en route" that can apply to both the campaign and MP games.

Now while it's still early days it does seem like there's going to be more of convergence to TT or fluff, and I for one welcome that. There's just something far more epic about a few marines surviving impossible gauntlets instead of the using the Ork/IG "meat grinder" method. Why not leave that for, y'know, the Orks and IG?