[2.30] Has the shreck nerf killed PE?

[Devil2575]

I'm sure there will be lots of people lining up to shoot me down for asking this question but I'm going to anyway.

Ever since they nerfed the Shreck the PE, IMO, have big problems.

How do they take down Brit emplacements, namely Lewis gun nests but also mortars and bofors.
The PE have virtually no decent artillery unless you go scorched earth and even then it is expensive and late game. So Before the nerf you simply charged your grenediers in with shrecks in sufficient quantity to stop them all getting pinned so they could shreck it to death. The trouble now is that since the shreck has been nerfed it is harder to do this to the point of it being almost impossible. I don't know if the lewis was also buffed as well since it seams to be able to suppress and pin huge numbers of units.
Other than the grenedier rush how else does a PE player take down lewis emplacements?
Well you can use a mortar HT if you like practising an exercise in utter futillity as it takes so long it's daft. From the other side the Brit mortar pit is brutal and will do a lot of damage to most of the lighter PE vehicles and infantry. Needless the say the mortar HT is also crap against brit mortars.
A PIVis is very good against emplacements, the trouble is it is very vunerable to brit tanks and dies in seconds to the 17lber, so unless you have about 4 driving into a brit strong point is suicide.
Also since the shreck nerf the PE are also very vunerable to brit tanks. Now it is very easy to kite tank buster squads and the cromwell is more than a match for a hetzer or marder. Sure the panther will kill a cromwell as will the jagdpanther but a couple of well positined Fireflies will scare a panther ot two away especially if the have a support tank in tow and or a cromwell or two.

But the tanks is a side issue, the major problem as I see it is emplacements. Grenediers simply cannot attack due to lewis guns. PE armour gets raped by bofors and 17lbers and they have no artillery to speak of to provide useful indirect fire. Even if you do get a hummel it need constant attention to stop it falling foul of counter battery fire.

On top of this the 25lbers harrass your units to the point of insanity. I don't know what the cool down time on them is but if your opponet has 2 they can pretty much pound you into subbmission.

In short PE have no effective way of taking down a brit stronghold and on many maps avoiding it just isn't an option.

Had the shreck not been nerfed, which IMO it shouldn't, then this would not be such an issue.

After all wasn't it nerfed because of people blobbing? a tactic endorsed by relic due to the inclusion of group zeal and the fact that PE units need to be grouped to make up for their general weakness and small size of units. After all US have been blobbing rifles for years.

[Frosty]

The Panzerschreck nerf doesn't have any influence on their anti-emplacement capabilities, since they have large accuracy bonuses against emplacements that make misses almost impossible.

[CroatNotBorat]

What Frosty said. Schrecks cannot miss emplacements.

At long range, their accuracy is 0.35, but against emplacements they have a 5x accuracy multiplier.

[Tseng_Fox]

Blob grens with shrecks. Its the only way to stand a chance against Brit emplacements and trenches. Group zeal will help alittle.

If its 2vs2 and has americans watch out for Strafing run. It'll wipe them out instantly.

[AverageJoe]

I've seen my grenadiers shoot the ground while standing at arms lenght to a mortar pit.

[sighman]

Now it is very easy to kite tank buster squads and the cromwell is more than a match for a hetzer or marder

Thats why you use shrecks in combination with Marders to kill cromwells.

[CroatNotBorat]

I've seen my grenadiers shoot the ground while standing at arms lenght to a mortar pit.
Maybe they wanted to shoot at something else? I don't see why they should miss emplacements.

[Ghostly_Gecko]

Marders people, Marders.

They take down emplacements like nobody's business, they're cheap, and they have a huge range, enough to force tommies to charge for quite a distance. I love Luftwaffle for this: putting FSJ's in camo'd cover and laying Butterfly Bombs between your Marders and the enemy's emplacements will absolutely annihilate the tommies.

[Border Patrol]

one slight nerf really only brought them near on par with wehr and americans. it had no effect on the MT-HT, inf HT, or AC

[Pyro Paul]

The shreck nerf has lowered the effectiveness of the shreck against emplacements to a degree, however in all but the most unique situations is this lowered effectiveness ever noticable.

yes, one on one, shrecks will never miss an emplacement. even at its longest range, the modifer will still be well above 100% accuracy meaning each shot should hit. however, the 'nerf' acctually fixed some of the ballistics that the shreck has. it will more often collide with world objects and obstructions. this can mean the diffrence between most emplacements living or dying and can be much of a head ache if you are rather unlucky.


certian emplacements 'dug in' to certian enviornmental obstructions can screw with the shreck collision some times making them mostly immune to shrecks at most ranges (mortar pits in craters) however you rarely see this and really should be chalked up to them expertly placing that emplacement.

[TeaSeeOh]

Anti-TANK Halftrack. It has this awesome ability, for only 40 munitions, that can completely gimp a tank. Look into it.

Shrecks aren't your only AT/anti emplacement option. Stop trying to blob.

[SourSauerKraut]

Has the schreck nerf killed the PE?

No, but it certainly has put a nail into Wehr's coffin. The OP PE have caused an indirect nerfing of Wehr, making it very hard to deal with the buffed M8s and Quad 50s......GRRRRRR!!!! :banghead: :banghead:

[Dryden]

as always, PE tech\eliteness is root of all evil.
All other factions suffer from it.

[Tseng_Fox]

Actually the British is the worst. They have wrecked the game. That style of playing makes fighting against them boring and unfair.

[Mickey C]

It's made it tougher but the shrek is still fairly good. My only gripe is the fact that a PG squad upgrading to a shrek when in a HT needs to disembark before equipping it...just a little fiddly sometimes.

I back that comment on the Brits. They seriously make games dull.

[Devil2575]

I back that comment on the Brits. They seriously make games dull.

I don't think it makes the game dull, but I do think that a british stronghold consisiting of about half a dozen emplacements is pretty much inpenetrable by a PE player. I mean a Bofors can prevent half tracks and infantry getting in. A couple of well positioned lewis guns can pin any infantry that try to get close, a 17lber makes toast of any tank, a mortar pit pounds infantry and light vehicles and the 25lber harasses you if you stand still for more than 1 minute. Throw in a couple of trenches with bren armed infantry to button and there is nothing a PE player can do. Your only chance is to prevent it during construction, the problem is that trenches, lewis guns are motrars are availble very early on. Mortars are a nuisance but can be dealt with by grenediers but back it up with a lewis gun and or a trench and the PE are pretty powerless to remove it. Your only chance is to go quick HT and shrecks to enable you to flank the lewis gun, even the a trench full of tommies can cause you to retreat quickly and we all know how hard it is to empty a trench. The incendiary nade is a joke and so is the mortar HT against anything other than troops in the open.

The real key is the the lack of a none doctrine specific unit that can cloak and so see if you have managed to empty that trench of take out that lewis gun without comming into the firing line.

[daroach1414]

to make things easier for people reading your posts it will help to call things by their real names. Its not a Lewis gun, its a vickers gun. Just so that you know.

[Texture]

No, but it certainly has put a nail into Wehr's coffin. The OP PE have caused an indirect nerfing of Wehr, making it very hard to deal with the buffed M8s and Quad 50s......GRRRRRR!!!!

Unless like, you built a pak, the proper counter to the motorpool units, which absolutely rapes them. But it's easier to complain? I guess.

[Panzer Jager]

The nerf wasn't big.
I only ever notice it when I'm killing a 17 pounder and 3 super-repair Sappers come over and fix the thing faster than I deal damage.

[PeterPeterson1]

Wehr was hitted harder. The nerf was alright. I say this as a major PE player the last weeks. You have AT grens which are really great! combine it with schrecks and you still have the biggest AT capabilities!

[SourSauerKraut]

Unless like, you built a pak, the proper counter to the motorpool units, which absolutely rapes them. But it's easier to complain? I guess.

..and Paks can get raped by M8s and Quads if they flank the Pak or one of your Riflespam hordes runs right through it and butt-blasts the Pak-gunners...

Much has been said by many in other threads about how the new reliance on Paks has crippled Wehr mid-game. I'm not gonna repeat all that here. My main point in this thread is to state that nerfs to schrecks and buffs to M8s/Quad 50s were meant to address the very real imbalance between US and PE....with Wehr paying the price along the way (because corresponding buffs to Wehr were not included in the patch to maintain balance between US and Wehr). I'm kinda pissed about that.

I'm also pissed that every other faction gets a real death-dealing vehicle (M8, Stuart, various PE vehicles) at about the same point in the game that Wehr gets its BB-Gun Halftrack. Of course, you already have a counter for the BB-Gun HT...the M8, so no problem there for you...no need for you to crank out an AT Gun from your motorpool until much later in the game...that way you can crank out yet another Rifle squad or M8 and do real damage rather than sit there manning your AT gun.

Give Wehr a real vehicle and then we'll see who starts bitching on the Forums (excuse me for the tone, but I unfortunately have taken the bait and am only replying in kind).

[bottenbreker]

i agree with SourSauerKraut on this Texture. M8's or Quads can rape paks. and don't come telling me that we need to support our units and that we need to use combined arms cause Wehr is like the ONLY faction that does that and needs to do that.

[Dryden]

M8 is MP which is similar to Wehr T3. Stuart is ST+Capt so its like T3 too. PE... Well, PE has it all very early but its not a reason to buff WM, but rather to nerf PE.
And WM gets Puma\Stug in T3. They have their bugs\problems but can be used for the Greater Good :)
And yes, Puma can rape 57mms.

Peace.

[Melonplant]

i agree with SourSauerKraut on this Texture. M8's or Quads can rape paks. and don't come telling me that we need to support our units and that we need to use combined arms cause Wehr is like the ONLY faction that does that and needs to do that.


What exactly do americans use for their mid game AT? I can't remember if it was their variant of the pak (the 57 mm) or their variant of the faust (stickies)

[Border Patrol]

aside from the fact that they get two hitted by these cloaked AT guns, yes. why yes they do in fact rape at gun face in. happy hunting!
edit: and motor pool is the equivalent of wehr T2, you clearly werent around before the xpack or you would have at least picked up on somebody saying something that makes sense instead of nonsensical rants about nonissues

[Dryden]

and motor pool is the equivalent of wehr T2 sum the fuel plz.

[Frosty]

Paks are easier to protect from flanking than 57mms. Firstly, carnouflage is both a great offensive and defensive advantage. Secondly, a Panzerschreck squad can keep flanking M8s at range while the Pak changes facing.


I'm also pissed that every other faction gets a real death-dealing vehicle (M8, Stuart, various PE vehicles) at about the same point in the game that Wehr gets its BB-Gun Halftrack.

I think the Flammenwerfer upgrade for the Wehrmacht halftrack could use a buff.

[PeterPeterson1]

sum the fuel please? that is no argument fo dividing into different tiers.
If you build one fuel needed Unit you destroy your argument. Not all units cost fuel, some do and some more then others.

sum the fuel...

no way!

[Devil2575]

I don't recall starting this thread about Wher...:D

IMO Wher are fine. I have no problem with them against either Brits or US.

The PE however are terrible against certain Brit and US strategies. Against a US player using a WSC start on a map with a lot of buildings it can be almost impossible to do anything. The MGs damage all early PE vehicles and if your opponent spams them in the buildings you have no chance. I'm thinking of one map in particular (I forget the name) but there are two medium fuels in the built up area which can both essentially be denied to you with the use of 4 Mgs. Add a mortar or two to bombard your mortar HTs, which will be delayed by a lack of fuel anyway and you are fooked. With some support those Mgs will effectively deny you most of the map for long enough so that you are out teched. These MGs are also quicker onto the field than any PE vehicle so you cannot intercept them before they get into place and if you try to rush grenediers in your opponet will simply garrison in buildings further back. Then once you have to retreat they will move them forward and you fooked. By the time you do get a PIV out (which will be almost impossible due to the fuel required) to take the Mgs down your opponet will have AT guns and if your mortar HT does have some success then you can almost guarantee it will fall foul of either ATs or rangers/paras or even US mortar fire.

Against the Brits, as soon as they have a 'Vickers' gun emplacement covering a choke point then you're are never going to get through. It will pin your infantry so you retreat and come back with a HT to flank it, only to find a second one covering it's back or a bofors and probabaly a trench etc. Even on games that I have won against players with much less experience I have alwyas struggled to take down a Brot stronghold. You get so far but before the job is done you have to retreat after taking massive casualties. The trench that no number of incendiary nades will clear, or the second or even third vickers covering the back of the other emplacements is frequently just too difficult to get rid of, so you have to retreat, however when you return to finish the job you are met with a refeshed enemy.

The US, Brits and wehr all have reasonable artillery to soften up defences before an attack. Only the PE have no decent none doctine arty to speak of.

I've said it before, the PE need stronger indirect fire weapons to counter british emplacements and garissoned MGs, or at least make the PE incendiary nade as powerfull as the US nade. How often the the US nade take down a whole MG team and how often does the PE nade not even hurt a single MG team member.

[Dryden]

Devil2575
yeah and how often US sticky is kited or ambushed or just plain doesnt kill while PE is free to repair and US has to reinforce his expensive Rifles.
And one broken map which lets you to camp many MGs is not good example (its Sent Dumont I suppose). Did you know that if you are north player on that map you have easy advantage bc many buildings dont have windows on northern sides? Its map is bugged and maybe thats why your garisoned PGs with G43 couldnt counter MGs.


sum the fuel please? that is no argument fo dividing into different tiers.If you are right then we have to make all factions similar without tiers. PE players will loose their unique fast tech and other imba options and soon will leave the game. Bс they got too much used to play without good effort and have easy results.

[Devil2575]

yeah and how often US sticky is kited or ambushed or just plain doesnt kill while PE is free to repair and US has to reinforce his expensive Rifles.

The sticky is not meant to be a one shot kill weapon. It takes a whole 2 to kill a HT and yes you can kite but the sticky still has a long range. It's no easier back away from a sticky than it is to do the same to a Shreck aremed unit as well.

As for repair, it is very slow. Oh and expensive rifles, you are joking right?

They cost 15 more than a unit of grenediers yet have twice as many men and 1 unit of rifles beats a unit of grenediers. The reinforce cost is also a lot lower, 27 per man IIRC compared to 45 for grenediers. Oh and add to the fact that you can retreat at 3 men and stand a good chance of your unit making it back to base. With only three men in a grenedier squad if you leave it till 1 man to retreat then you stand a good chance of losing the whole unit. Retreat at 2 men and they are pretty much leaving the fight before it starts.

Your right about that map though, although Sturtzdorf and Semois can all suffer from MG spam.

[Dryden]

Quote:yeah and how often US sticky is kited or ambushed or just plain doesnt kill while PE is free to repair and US has to reinforce his expensive Rifles.
The sticky is not meant to be a one shot kill weapon. It takes a whole 2 to kill a HT and yes you can kite but the sticky still has a long range. It's no easier back away from a sticky than it is to do the same to a Shreck aremed unit as well.its just that US gets their kiting vehicles in T3 and MT-HT\SC\I-HT comes in T1-T2.
And a pair of shrecked PGs can still hit M8 from long distance, thus be more or less not so vulnerable to rifles (most probably w\o BARs) while rifles run so close that they are supressed+killed by I-HT or killed from short\med by G43.
Do you feel the difference?

As for repair, it is very slow. Oh and expensive rifles, you are joking right?
They cost 15 more than a unit of grenediers yet have twice as many men and 1 unit of rifles beats a unit of grenediers. The reinforce cost is also a lot lower, 27 per man IIRC compared to 45 for grenediers. Oh and add to the fact that you can retreat at 3 men and stand a good chance of your unit making it back to base. With only three men in a grenedier squad if you leave it till 1 man to retreat then you stand a good chance of losing the whole unit. Retreat at 2 men and they are pretty much leaving the fight before it starts.1) very hi US upkeep.
2) rifles cost 27*4=108mp to reinf 66% or squad. 3-men PGs cost 90mp to reinf same 66%. And they dont present MP44\G43 to the enemy when die!
You could compare 27*5=135mp with 3*45 = 135mp. But its much more dangerous to retreat 1 rifle then 1 PG. And when squad size will be 4 men, it will mean that you have +33% HP\firepower. And still very low upkeep.


Your right about that map though, although Sturtzdorf and Semois can all suffer from MG spam.I tried to MG-spam on Semois not long ago. Its not so easy bc key houses are easy to flank\mortar\snipe(G43). And you cant insta-build 4 MGs and garrison them in good locations, you will fight with PGs while kettens cap more than half of map, bc engies are not so fast and loose to massed PGs which are free to hunt them.
And +10 fuel near each base on Semois is that one thing that lets you not worry about MGs that tried to hold the town.
Because they are bad at avoiding indenciary barrages.

[Frosty]

PE has everything it needs to combat both riflespam and garrisoned .30 cals. G43s and increased squad size against riflespam, flanking plus incendiary grenade spam against MGs.

[Tseng_Fox]

If you are right then we have to make all factions similar without tiers. PE players will loose their unique fast tech and other imba options and soon will leave the game. Bс they got too much used to play without good effort and have easy results.

Wait, don't you mean British by any chance? they are the most imba race ever.

They need to tone down the marder, and make the AT halftrack come one tier earlier since shrecks no longer are good for offense.

[Devil2575]

PE has everything it needs to combat both riflespam and garrisoned .30 cals. G43s and increased squad size against riflespam, flanking plus incendiary grenade spam against MGs.

Except the incendiary nade is a joke. You need to get at least 2 or more normally 3 into a building to take down the MG. It is hard enough to get 1 in if the Mg has supporting units in the vicinity, such as a sniper which can take down a 3 man squad without too much trouble.

[Dryden]

Quote:If you are right then we have to make all factions similar without tiers. PE players will loose their unique fast tech and other imba options and soon will leave the game. Bс they got too much used to play without good effort and have easy results.
Wait, don't you mean British by any chance? they are the most imba race ever.at least brits are dull and monotonous. If you want to play them effectively you have a narrow path or teching and using same set of units and emplacements.
While PE give you all the fun with different funny effective tactics and the feeling that you really rule the game.
Thats just not fair. Its just... hurts. I have to fight my way to victory and he has an easy walk, then he can call me "lolzn00b Rang0rz ZtrafingRun Abuzer" if I win and simply call me a n00b if I loose?
No way.

They need to tone down the marder, and make the AT halftrack come one tier earlier since shrecks no longer are good for offense.AT-HT snipes infantry to good. They need to tone down the speed of tech T1\T2 -> T3\T4.
Maybe just make that one building requires another so it would always be LK -> KK -> PSC -> PJC.
And give that mortar-HT\MG-HT setup time. OR high possibility of engine damage from mortar hit.

[Tseng_Fox]

at least brits are dull and monotonous. If you want to play them effectively you have a narrow path or teching and using same set of units and emplacements.

Dull? more like infuriating. Trying to move around the map with mortars and artillery hitting you, then with OMGWTFPWN commandos dropping onto you even though your trying to use combined arms with Wehr, defending yourself with volks, MG's, sniper, mortar and infrantry halftracks until you can tech and hopefully scrape enough resources together for Vet.


Maybe just make that one building requires another so it would always be LK -> KK -> PSC -> PJC.

Then we'll get just a cookie cutter of americans but with more veichles. Something serious would have to be done to make up for the PE's loss of flexible teching orders.

It would have almost exactly the same tech. What about making each unit only effective against one particular unit in an army? Example. Falls being used specifically as a counter to elite infrantry. Mortar counter to emplacements, but sucks at anything else.

That way combined arms could be used and teching stays the same without any imbas.

[Devil2575]

And a pair of shrecked PGs can still hit M8 from long distance, thus be more or less not so vulnerable to rifles (most probably w\o BARs) while rifles run so close that they are supressed+killed by I-HT or killed from short\med by G43.
Do you feel the difference?

Not really. In prcatice i find it hard to Kite rifles since I tend to have twice as many units half the size on the field than a US player. So I retreat my Inf HT to avoid the sticky and my mortar HT gets hit instead. Besides a HT that is backing off can no longer reinforce grenediers. I don't have a problem with rifle spam and IMO it tends to come down to who is the better player, but I do not think that rifles, at the moment, are at a disadvantage to PE at all. They are cheap to produce, have a lot of men per unit and are versitile enough to be used as a stand alone unit until a PE player gets a PIVis out. Rilfes are so versatile that in conjunction with rangers thay can combat any PE vehicle/ infantry unit in the game other than an armour upgraded PIVis. So throw in a couple of AT guns and you have that covered. Coupled with straffing run the US are more than able to lookmafter themselves vs PE.

[sgb]

I mainly play PE in 2v2 and 3v3 and they're just fine, especially against emplacements. 2 shreks + AT grenades will obliterate an emplacement before the British player can do anything about it. Wehr suffers far more because of it, due to the StuG being a useless POS and the pak being more expensive than the 57mm.

The shrek nerf wasn't aimed solely at the PE though, it was done because shrek blobs negated all US armour.

[Texture]

I've semi-wondered where certain long time posters have gone, figuring that maybe they just got bored with the game... now I'm beginning to think it just got boring to talk about strategy or balance with flat out noobs...

If you are actually loosing Paks to M8's or Quad .50's, you are a fucking moron. This isn't really a debatable point, you are god fucking awful at the game and in dire need of more practice. If you can't properly take down vehicles with a CLOAKED unit that has a MASSIVE range advantage and does enough damage to occasionally ONE SHOT KILL the target there is little to no hope for you or your balance opinions.

This goes right alongside bitching about garrisoned .30 cals, and stating that Mortar HT's are not a viable counter because the enemy will control "all the fuel" and use their own mortars to counter you.... Wow. You're kidding right? You might want to start playing your games in such a way that you don't LET THEM HAVE ALL THE FUEL. It's pretty easy to do... instead of rushing your Pgrens into the face of the enemy garrisoned .30 cals, being forced to retreat, and then finding more enemy garrisoned around the other fuel on the map, why don't you try taking an area, holding it, waiting for the proper counter to clear the MG's, and THEN attacking? There is no excuse for loosing all fuel access on any 1v1 Map that I can think of. If you do, it's called being outplayed, not a balance issue.

Now, once you do manage to not fuck that part up, you will have a Mortar HT on the field. Hmmm, what to do about those pesky mortars the allies built? Oh wait.. right. I almost forgot. They do absolute shit for damage vs a Mortar HT. If the enemy really decides to leave them in place, all the better for you. Now you can kill them AND the .30 cal in garrison, helping you to vet even faster.

Generally I like to send a little thank you message to my opponent at that point: "Thanks for the free vet. Please build more mortar squads so I can get to Vet III. Thanks. PS: How are the kids?"

===========
So how did we get onto the topic of things which are both A: completely untrue and B: unrelated to shrek performance? I think it's partially my fault, I brought up Paks earlier...
===========

The shrek nerf feels like it bites the PE hardest when it comes to fighting M8's, obviously. But overall that feels like a really good improvement. It means that M8's are actually viable now, much easier for ppl to use even if they aren't a micro god like Aniketos. It also finally pushes home a tough teching decision for the PE: how am I going to fight infantry and M8's?

Should I get a mixture of G43's, HT's and Shreks? If I do that, how will I handle the M8? In that case, I'd suggest having at least one of those shreks in your infantry HT. If you can get a hit in off your ground based shrek, then the HT can generally hunt the M8 down when it runs before the M8 can kill it.

Or will you go Marders? Do you have the fuel to do so in time? How will you prevent flanking.. ramming an AC into the M8 so it can't circle, or maybe fausting with a Fallschrim squad the M8 before it closes range to get that little extra bit of damage in?

Maybe you go tank hunters and spam 50 mu teller mines around the map at 1 CP. That's really going to freak the American player out, when his first M8 gets vaporised for seemingly no reason. Will it buy you sufficient time to get a Hetzer on the field?

Or perhaps you are going for a PiV short barrel and AT-HT. I personally have no luck with this, but some people seem to do a really good job with it.

Basically you have a ton of options on the table, but you can't just sit in one tier spamming shrek'd pgrens anymore and hope to win against an opponent w/ good micro. It's hard to see this as a bad thing... tankbusters/upgraded pgrens still kick ass when they are put in the right situation, w/o being a one-size-fits-all solution. Which is really how everything in the game should be, so it's hard to argue with.

[Sutr]

Texture you just gave me my new sig. Ultimately I don't think the shreck nerf ruined the pe it just took way a the all purpose at crutch that too many pe players relied on now most of them are stuggling to adapt to the situation. Almost that one person complaining how he couldn't run into machinegun fire as pe anymore.

[Devil2575]

Mortar HT's are not a viable counter because the enemy will control "all the fuel" and use their own mortars to counter you.... Wow

Nice to see an objective post.

Mortar Hts are not a vaible counter to garrisoned MGs because THEY TAKE TOO LONG TO KILL THE MG. And assuming the Mg is supported you Mortar HT will fall foul of stickies before long anyway.

On a map where you can deny the opponets fuel early on by suppressing/destroying units with garrisoned 30 cals, such as Sturtzdorf and St Dummont then Mortar HTs simply take too long to remove them. Yes they will remove them but not very quickly and if you try to stay at range then you have no chance since the mortar HT is very inaccurate close to the nedge of it's alrady poor range.

I never said you could not get the fuel to tech to them, just that when you did they aren't that good. Average at best. Unlike both the US and Brit mortars.

Yes US mortras can counter as they do damage a PE Mortar HT as fast as it can remove a garrisoned MG from a building. I have seen it.

I was told the other day theat small arems fire wouldn't damage a marder until I saw a commando unit take one down.

Oh and I haven't even mentioned US snipers yet...

[Goobers]

A Mortar HT will remove an MG from your average building in roughly two or three hits. All Mortars suck at Maximum range, the Mt-Ht however is fast enough, and durable enough to drive past the 30cal, with AP rounds going, zag behind a building or bush close to it and pummel it with impunity. It can't be counter Mortared, sniped, suppressed or shot to pieces by a charging Riflesquad before it gets up and drives off. It takes minimal amounts of micro, so if it got stickied you need to practice a bit. It is significantly better than the US mortar, and up there with the completely immobile Mortar Pit in terms of power.


A Marder is durable to small arms fire, however is a a Half-Track, not a tank. Whoever told you that it was immune is sorely mistaken.

US snipers against PE, who have 1,2 ... 3 anti-infantry units buildable right of the bat that are Vehicles and can't be sniped. As well as having cappers that can't be sniped or suppressed by an MG either. Snipers are a moot point, a counter only to people who try and blob Pgrens.


On the origional topic:

Between Fausts, AT Grenades, Hetzers, Teller Mines, Marders, Panthers, Flak 88s and Henschels.

Try using something else than just Shrecks.

[Melonplant]

Don't ever fire a barrage from maximum range with a mortar halftrack. It's not a well known point, but it is god awful at maximum range.

You need to move your mortar halftrack to the range, then fire off the barrage. It's very tempting to order the barrage as soon as your mortar halftrack is out, but this results in the mortar halftrack going to max range and then commencing its crappy barrage.

Good hunting!

[Tseng_Fox]

Between Fausts, AT Grenades, Hetzers, Teller Mines, Marders, Panthers, Flak 88s and Henschels.

Hetzers, Teller Mines, Flak 88 and Henschels are all doctrine specific.

[Goobers]

Because heaven forbid we ever use Doctrine abilities to compliment out force.

[Devil2575]

Don't ever fire a barrage from maximum range with a mortar halftrack. It's not a well known point, but it is god awful at maximum range.

You need to move your mortar halftrack to the range, then fire off the barrage. It's very tempting to order the barrage as soon as your mortar halftrack is out, but this results in the mortar halftrack going to max range and then commencing its crappy barrage.

Finally a helpfull post.

I did not know that ordering a barrage was less effective if you were not already in range.

[Frosty]

I did not know that ordering a barrage was less effective if you were not already in range.

No. What he means is, that a mortar (halftrack) ordered to do a barrage while out of range will fire always fire the barrage from its maximum range, which results in a very low accuracy.

[Devil2575]

No. What he means is, that a mortar (halftrack) ordered to do a barrage while out of range will fire always fire the barrage from its maximum range, which results in a very low accuracy.

Which is in effect what I said :D

[Tseng_Fox]

Because heaven forbid we ever use Doctrine abilities to compliment out force.

Means that you miss out on other things though. You wont ever have the full choice of AT.

[Dryden]

Mortar Hts are not a vaible counter to garrisoned MGs because THEY TAKE TOO LONG TO KILL THE MGI dont think so... lets compare. How much time do you need to harmlessly kill PE MG (I-HT) as USA? Is that much shorter(longer)?

[Cyberbob]

You certainly can't do it with a mortar, that's for sure.

[PeterPeterson1]

But you can reach the INF HT without getting suppressed instantly like against an HMG!

[Cyberbob]

Reach it with what, pray tell? It may not have massive suppression, but it deals out some pretty devastating damage.

[Devil2575]

I dont think so... lets compare. How much time do you need to harmlessly kill PE MG (I-HT) as USA? Is that much shorter(longer)?

Well i will reserve my judgement on the Mortar HT until after I have tried the suggestion that I should move it into range before ordering a bombardment.

As for the inf HT, you normally need two rifles with stickies to destroy one. If they have BARs then it may go down with just 1 and a lot of BAR fire, which does a reaonsable ammount of damage. If the Ht strays into MG fire than it takes quite a lot of damage especially if that is AP fire.

As for harmlessly, well then you would need an AT gun which can target PE vehicles inc mortars from a long way off.