Infiltration in DoW 2

[themango55]

I would like to see a major overhaul for this.

Having units be unassailable by units even in melee because they are supposed to be stealthy and good at hiding? Examples are the SM scouts and the DE mandrakes, they can get from place to place without being noticed, but once they go into CC fighting the enemy should be able to see them.

Sure, have them be invisible when they are just walking around, perhaps when they are firing from cover, but I think when they run up to the enemy and start slashing wildly at them with blades they have officially stopped sneaking.

The only ones that should be at least somewhat invisible while attacking should be the ones that are actually invisible/difficult to see with the naked eye, such as Tau Stealthsuits. Although this should be implemented not by making them un targetable even when you know where they are, but rather should give very large accuracy penalties to attackers.

[Penitent]

An accuracy penalty does sound like a better implementation of stealth to me than making them untargetable.

The current DoW system of making units invisible is a farce, whilst the previous approach (stealth units were revealed in combat) just wasn't all that useful so neither of them should return.

I think infiltrators should be invisible when not in combat and have a large sight range to avoid detectors. If they break their stealth by shooting the enemy (whilst being in cover) the enemy should get an accuracy and morale penalty due to being ambushed by concealed enemies. If the infiltrators aren't in cover or they get detected then they shouldn't recieve bonuses.

Scouts with sniper rifles and bolters would be cool if they worked like that. perhaps even give them the ability to plant mines, tripwire grenades in building etc.

[Cadian_cameo]

I personally Infiltrators using the original DOW system would have worked if the maps had been big enough for a infiltrated squad to actually avoid close contact with the enemy. Dawn of War maps just seem to small for that to work.

Maybe the maps will be allot bigger in DOW 2, so that a squad of scouts has more room to evade the enemy. Increased sight range would help to.

I just thought of another thing. How about you make it so that infiltrators can go into buildings, and be completely invisible unless they try to enter the building. This could be useful in a city full of various structures.

[Flonky]

I think infiltrated units should be almost invisible to see when moving in a stealth mode, but more visible when running or in open ground. Also they would be more visible when in combat - whether in cover or not.

One little way you could hide the infiltrated units is to make them never show up on the enemies mini map, ever. This would reduce the chance of the enemy spotting them, as it should be.

[marshall666666]

My opinion: IT should stay as it is, its great!

[Cadian_cameo]

If the stealthed unit is visible, but not on the minimap, won't it be detected by the player any way when his units start shooting the infiltrators?

This ability doesn't really help you sneak past much.

[Flonky]

But it could make the defending player struggle to locate the fire being aimed at his/her/it's forces. In reality if you are ambushed by commandos one cannot simply check the mini map to see where they are.

[Versian]

Infiltration in DoW2 better be a combination of Vanilla DoW and DC. I mostly agree with the "Infiltrated Close Combat deal". That's just wrong. But something has to be done.

[Cadian_cameo]

But it could make the defending player struggle to locate the fire being aimed at his/her/it's forces. In reality if you are ambushed by commandos one cannot simply check the mini map to see where they are.
Yes, but in real life your troops under commando attack would radio in command that they were being attacked. If the commander knew where his unit was, he'd have a general idea where the hostile unit of commandos was.

Besides, a real commando unit's purpose isn't to launch frontal attacks against the enemy line troops. It's his mission to evade the line troops (impossible if line troops can fire on him), and to recon/attack the enemy rear assets.

This wouldn't be possible if infiltration was done the way you are suggesting.

[Dragnarr]

I think the real question here is: What would players like infiltration used at?

The comparison to commandos reminds me that infiltrated units could be used as saboteurs and such. Right now they really don't have a role. Mostly just Tier 0 units get stealth upgrade so they can scout around (except CSM stealth base attack).


What I would love to see is unit AI reflecting the stealth mode, such as moving away from enemies that would detect them unless given an order. Even a complex task where you would order your Cultist to "Ambush" at certain spot. When enemy would arrive that spot the cultists would move in stealth near the enemies and all attack at once.

[Pocktio]

Hmmmmm. Maybe if they go stealth they get certain perks. As they are being stealthy enemy units LOS decreases for them, the stealth units can't use ranged weaponry (twud reveal em, no?) but melee weapons HOWEVER melee damage is buffed to make it worth it. Also rather than making them invisible maybe make it so they take less ranged damage to show how the enemies can't see and can't shoot them effectively.

[Flonky]

On reflection I think that only sniper units should get any proper infiltration at all. This would be stuff like grot snipers or SM scout snipers. Tau stealth suits would just take for example 30% damage and other units like normal SM scouts would just get better better cover bonuses and move quicker through cover.

[Captain Commie]

Well a huge part they could implement that would change the way Inflitration worked would be a force fire button. Its kinda corny that a CSM can sit in a bush and shoot a stream of tracers out, yet you can not tell your guards men with Grenades, flamethrowers and heavy bolters to shoot in that bush. Obviosly less "stealthy" weapons like Sniper rifles wouldnt have this problem because they dont send a stream of bullets out to be seen.

[TheLoneKnight]

Implement Coh's infiltration system, then. A toggle-able ability that slows your movement but renders you completely invisible until you fire or are within close range of an enemy unit so even if you can't detect the sniper you can still run over there and find him just by searching with your units.

Seems like it would make a fair bit of sense for both games actually.

[Mirage Knight]

Good suggestion there. What about adding auto stealth when in cover though?

[PitSoulja]

Do you really think that in the 41st millenium that camioline cloaks with the advance in technology think that they should be seen in broad daylight? if you can bend light around you and become invisible then yeah you should be able to attack while stealthed too. thats like taking the f117a over iraq but since they can't see it in the sky or on radar they should be able to shoot at it anyways. no sense in shooting or attacking things you can't see. I can see commanders being trained enough to see the distortions in the atmosphere where they are running but other then that leave things as they are.

[Mokino]

Even if they don't want it to be toggeable simply make infiltration units harder to see at range.

[TheLoneKnight]

It's the muzzle flash that makes them visible, Soulja, not the lack of camouflage. Every shot reveals them only for a second or two, allowing enemy snipers to, as it is said, "Counter snipe", or to allow attentive commanders to run their soldiers out there to get close enough to detect the hidden unit. There are detection units as well - in DoW2 they could be justified as having enhanced senses/machines - but the idea is to allow even regular units to do more against concealed units rather than just sit there getting shot at or retreating.

Infiltrated units in CoH can also hold fire, so if a player didn't want to get spotted he could simply fire off a single shot and then reposition before his opponent gets a bearing on the sniper.

[Croaxleigh]

One thing that I'd always considered for DoW in mods is to basically give the units a very small detection radius, so that they couldn't see stealth units at a distance but could see them at melee range. After all, if you're within licking distance you're going to see something, even if it's just the distortion when they move.

[Noir]

Good suggestion there. What about adding auto stealth when in cover though?

You mean like with Goliaths and FJs now in CoH?

[themango55]

Do you really think that in the 41st millenium that camioline cloaks with the advance in technology think that they should be seen in broad daylight? if you can bend light around you and become invisible then yeah you should be able to attack while stealthed too. thats like taking the f117a over iraq but since they can't see it in the sky or on radar they should be able to shoot at it anyways. no sense in shooting or attacking things you can't see. I can see commanders being trained enough to see the distortions in the atmosphere where they are running but other then that leave things as they are.

If you're firing a relatively unseen sniper bullet, then sure.

If you're firing an extremely visable plasma burst or hail of tracer machine gun fire, then I would expect that people would shoot that the source of that fire.

I can think of three units that may be using some sort of invisibility technology, the IG Assassin, the Eldar Scouts, and the Tau Stealthsuts. But don't tell me the Cultists and Mandrakes are wearing some sort of cloak that makes them invisible, their faces are visible!

And even if they were invisible, if someone invisible is wailing on me with a sword in melee, I'm pretty sure that I would attack with my own sword in the direction it's coming from.

[Versian]

I can understand having some accuracy penalties on troops engaging in melee combat with stealth units, but come on. There are other senses other than sight, I'm sure the guy getting stabbed in the back would realize there's something behind him.

[themango55]

Perhaps to give infiltrated units some melee advantage, they are revealed after they attack, but the first two seconds that infiltrated unit attacks in melee, they do triple damage to reflect the fact that the other units can't defend themselves.

[Versian]

I don't see why Infiltrated units should do more damage, Just cuz I'm invisible doesn't mean I'm stronger or I attack faster. I was thinking that the non-infiltrated units get some sort of penalty when fighting infiltrated units.

[TheLoneKnight]

I think I still prefer the CoH approach. Infiltrators are then designed largely for ambush/raiding, not for standing around shooting at people with absolute impunity because they didn't build a detector. As I recall, camouflaged units also recieved a damage bonus on their first shot from a concealed position... but it's been a while since I played it.

As a bonus this system has already been implemented in Essence Engine and is comfortably simplistic and intuitive.

[themango55]

I don't see why Infiltrated units should do more damage, Just cuz I'm invisible doesn't mean I'm stronger or I attack faster. I was thinking that the non-infiltrated units get some sort of penalty when fighting infiltrated units.

Because they won't see you coming. This will give you a chance to target vulnerable locations that the opponent would otherwise protect.

It's like a sneak attack in D&D.

[SpaceMarineFan]

Or in Oblivion...
It's a good idea. How could someone not notice someone two feet away hacking away them?
It's blasphemy, it's madness!
Errr....
This is Sparta?

[Versian]

Ah. I thought you meant while the actual combat was going on. In that case yeah. Makes sense.

[IndigoSpyder]

I wouln't mind the camo stealth logic in CoH where you can enable it but move slowly and when disabled, you move in normal speed. But I guess since this genre is based on the future, cloaking technology wouldn't require you to move slowly/sneak.

But I guess for balancing reasons this might happen?

[TheLoneKnight]

Even if it bends light around you and stuff like that, you could reason that the technology has not yet advanced to the point where it can do it fast enough to allow the user to run around normally without creating imperfections in the system. A Camioline cloak, for instance, might have problems bending light if the fabric is moving rapidly. If you're running you also risk parts of you being exposed outside of the cloak, as well.

Thus the slow movement is entirely acceptable despite advanced technology.

[Versian]

Besides, despite 40 millenia of time, technology hasn't advanced that much. Just look at the Imperium for example. Other races have good reasons for not teching up. Necrons were sleeping, Tau are new kids on the block, orks... well... they're orks. Etc. Etc. It's still quite possible for certain technologies to not be perfected yet, even by the Eldar.

[Frankie7508]

I think TLK was right in saying that the way CoH addressed stealth would work really nice. The unit is invisible unless the enemy is very close or he fires weapon. Immediately after firing though, stealth units ought be to able to return to stealth mode. In essence(no pun intended), it is a mix between original DOW stealth and DC stealth.

[Cadian_cameo]

I wouln't mind the camo stealth logic in CoH where you can enable it but move slowly and when disabled, you move in normal speed. But I guess since this genre is based on the future, cloaking technology wouldn't require you to move slowly/sneak.

But I guess for balancing reasons this might happen?Cloaking devices in most fiction still leaves a bend in the light where the guy is standing. If you were running it might be possible for an observant soldier to notice the bending. Going slowly would minimize chance of detection.


Not sure if stealth should be limited to sniper. Aren't Storm Troopers in the Table top game capable of infiltration? I could imagine how that would be useful.

[Frankie7508]

Though not about the implementation of stealth in DOW2, Cadian_cameo's comment made me think of something(albeit very unoriginal). How useful could stealth be if it was one of the "doctrines" for chapters/ regiments that focus on stealth. I think that could greatly change the way in which one plays races such as SM/Chaos/IG. I was wondering if you all thought that it would be too hard to balance, or an interesting way of changing up play styles.

[sgnl05]

What about if every squad in the game had some sort of "stealth rating" and a sight rating. Then there could be modifiers based on various factors such as cover, moving, shooting and the range of the enemy. So:

a terminator squad has almost no stealth rating at all, so they'll pretty much always be visible no matter where they are or what they're doing.

A tactical squad is a little stealthy, but not very. They can probably hide if they're in good cover, aren't moving or firing and the enemy isn't very close to them. If they enemy happens to be a scout unit then they still might be spotted.

Scouts are quite stealthy. They can stay hidden in the open quite well as long as they don't shoot and don't get very close to enemies. If they hide in cover they might even be able to snipe some enemies while staying hidden, as long as the enemies are quite far away.

Stealth suits are very stealthy and can fire at most targets and stay stealthed, as long as they more or less keep their distance. The direction that they're firing from will still be visible however.

To counter this there would be the occasional unit with a particularly high sight rating, which would let them detect stealthed units even in cover or at longer ranges. "Scout" type units (scouts, rangers, cultists pathfinders ect) would have quite a high sight rating, and hero units would have even better sight.

[Panama]

I think they should use the system that was used in battle for middle earth 2 where, some units can become concealed when in terrain like trees, bushes etc. But they should be given the option to 'hold fire' incase you dont want enemy troops to realise you are there. This system always makes for great ambushes and stuff and I thunk it would work on the maps on DoW because of their size.... that is assuming DoW2 maps are about the same size.

[nick2512]

Please don't start on the Imperial technologies, I'll smash your heads open with the sheer amount of technologies at the disposal of the Imperium.

Back onto the topic at hand, scouts should have muffled bolters (I'm not sure if there are muffled bolters but I'm pretty sure I've seen one somewhere) Every units should have a detection ability albeit a tiny little whiny one.

[Mardhyn]

Personally I would love if they went back to original DoW2 infiltration for most units.(Read most units, Vindicare assassin would be an exception) Why? Basically because it removes a form of imba, i.e. invisible scouts with snipers will FYUBAR in most cases, and gives early tactical uses. Want to see what your enemy is planning? Put your scouts in infiltration stance and scout out the enemy.

[KON Air]

I think there should be different types of fluff faithful stealth like;

Hiding/Camouflage;
Scouts; Toggle skill or not they should be revealed when shooting.
Rangers; Since those guys they rely on camouflage, they should gain invisibility while in cover, even while shooting.

Natural Skill/Granted By Tech;
Mandrakes; Those bastichs have shadows around themselves concealing them, they should be invisible in distance and have a slight bonus in melee.
Shealth Suits; Since the stealthfield generating suit won't shut itself down once spotted, they should gain a slight evasion bonus all the time, the upgraded plasma torch would also reveal while shooting.

Stealth Experts/Ninjas
Vindicare Assassin; Given that units sole trick is Stealth, it should remain hidden even while shooting.
Gretchins; Well, Grots will hide, a life long experience of hiding away from Orks, they master "not drawing attention" and "hide behind a bush" skills. Their size is also a helping factor :P

Granted by Cover;
Should a squad find large enough a cover and keep their fingers away from the trigger they should remain unnoticed form a distance, only to pop-up and ambush the enemy.

Edit; Table Top Infiltration has hardly anything to do with DoWs infiltration, mostly it allows to deploy units ahead of main force.

[nick2512]

But Tau should not even have melee damage, if they do they should be more like 02-05 because they are pathetic in melee so you shouldn't give them 10-10. Guardsmen are better trained in close-combat than Tau Firewarriors but Guardsmen are the equivalent of modern days Marines if you like it or not.

Four months of basic training, four months of BASIC training. BASIC, all those basic skills so Guardsmen must do better than Firewarrior in close combat by a wide margin not a little margin but maybe I'm just an Imperial Die-Hard.

I play the 122nd Cadian Regiment and Space Wolves Astartes on TT so I'm a little bit biased. :rofl:

[Fightingfirst]

Scouts should be able to remain invisible whilst firing weapons like the sniper rifle (but not weapons like missile launcher, heavy bolter, botler or flamers). I doubt a regular ork is going to spy a scout taking a shot from a mile away with his sniper rifle (if hes in cover). However, once the enemy gets within a certain range the scouts should become visible because even an ork can probably guess where the shot is coming from if he is 6 feet from the sniper. Obviously races detection radiuses would differ from the super senses of a marine to the lowly imperial guard.
However units that have stealth technology like vindicare assassin and tau xv25 even once in range of the units detection radius should still get a certain acuracy modifier to units trying to hit them, obviously this accuracy modifier goes down if the xv25 team get int cc.

[Flonky]

However units that have stealth technology like vindicare assassinAre you sure they have stealth technology?


accuracy modifier goes down if the xv25 team get int cc.Why you would let your stealth suits get into CC...I do not know.

Other than that, good points. Though maybe certain units should only be "invisible" if stationary and in cover. Or moving v.e.r.y slowly through cover. If in the open they are completely visible.

[Vrugar Gutslice]

I think the tricky part is making it useful without having too much micromanagement and also have it useful for both ranged infiltrators; Scouts, Rangers, Stealth Suits, Stormtroopers and also having it useful for Close combat Infiltrators, Cultists, Kommandos.

[Fightingfirst]

@Flonky

Are you sure they have stealth technology?

Yes they do.

They wear stealth suits that mask their visibility in every spectra, and sophisticated spy masks that allow them to pick out their target no matter the light level or cover.
They should also be able to spot enemy units who don't have stealth technology but rely on cover. In game that could translate to cover not counting for the vindicare assassins enemy because of the spy mask.


Why you would let your stealth suits get into CC...I do not know.

I mean incase they are charged by an enemy squad, i would not intentionally want to put them in cc.

[Droids_R]

I'd like it if it worked similar to CoH. Make them slower, give them a good sight range, but cloak them. They should be able to get a volley as an ambush before losing cloak, though, like camoflauged AT guns.

Now, I think some units should work differently. Tau Stealthsuits should stay permanently cloaked, but when attacking are targetable, but with an accuracy penalty to the enemy. As they continue shooting this accuracy penalties gets lower, so they must hit and run if they want to survive.

[Enochian]

My only issue with that is units like mandrakes are masters at being assassins with poison. they kill many very early on with surprise but than loose that after they did decent to devestating damage. But there so good at blending that they actually utilize it in cc as well. To hit and run, blend, and do it again one kill after another.

You would have to give them some sort of cover save or make them hard to hit even when there in cc. The way it is now is about right for mandrakes and even for units like Striking scorpions (fingers crossed hope to see them in dow 2).

Even the infamous Harlequin is hard or impossible to see when in cc.

[Flonky]

Maybe give certain "assassin" CC units a damage reduction so that they last longer? Like the passive ability the SoB death cultist has.

[cam2kx]

How about when stealth units enter cover they become invisible regardless of see stealth, but cannot attack, and when their out of cover they can attack with a temporary damage buff as a ambush bonus.

Of course if a unit enters the melee range of a hidden/in cover stealth unit their stance determines if they ambush the intruders.
Like if they have the room they will move slightly around in the cover they have so not to show themselves to the enemy.

Or of course there's the whole if they enter your cover their seen regardless, unless thier a full body invisible unit aka stealth suit.

Basicly what im trying to get at is, if your units have no literal line of sight the the person in cover they cannot see them at all.

[neucromaner]

i would welcome a slight change in cloaking unit
it seem strange and hard for some races to deal with cloak unit.

[Shadow Walker]

cloak system from DC and SS was idiotic-invisible CC, invisible rocket or bolter fire etc. it should be made realistic. it is obvious that trained scout unit is very hard to spot but it is not impossible. all units should be able to spot hidden enemy units but of course more experienced worriors should have some adventages=Force Commander will have better chances to spot Eldar Ranger than Assault Marine but Librarian will be even more effective because of his telephatic powers

[Oom Gert]

What if each stealth unit has a stealth bar, each time it makes an attack it deducts points off.

Example: Units has stealth rating of 10.
Action 1: A range attack -5 to stealth, 5 stealth remain.
Action 2: A melee attack -3 to stealth, 2 stealth remain.
Action 3: A melee attack -3 to stealth, unit uncloaks.
Then stealth slowly recharges over time.

[Enochian]

I like the idea of being chameleon, looking like explained in fluff and being able to blend with terrain to ambush. As i said fighting harlequin in a jungle or city from all explanations ive ever seen is a loosing battle. they dont give any opportunity they just kill.

I do like the idea of added damage for a real ambush.

[krusher]

it would be cool if stealth units could "assasinate" a number of units in their initial attack, but then after become visable, Range units that have their muzzle flash revealed should be able to be attacked by clicking a button to attack ground with crap for accuracy, In predator movies people shoot in all directions at the pred and he gets hit, but more often than not he gets away.

[Scinadier]

Infiltration should be as it is in the tabletop - A unit may deploy anywhere on the map (provided it's passable) as long as they are a certain distance away from the enemy AND out of sight.

I don't know when Infiltration became Cloak, because they are different things by definition. If they decide to keep the old infiltration system they should at least change the name to cloak.