Cover / Garrison system

[Tuna-Frisk]

Cover system:
Im wondering if anyone has heard about how this will be implemented? I read somewhere that the orbital bombardments will leave craters or something, and a natural progression from COH will indicate a deformable environment. Sooo, can we speculate that a basilisk can blast a hole in the ground and then units can take cover within it?

Garrison system:
I also read somewhere that "Units can fire from buildings" so we will see a garrison, push forward, entrench style of urban warfare. Thats cool.

Fluff wise:
Do any of the races that will probly make the initial cut (SM, Ork, Chaos) have any sort of deployable bunkers or large vehicles/tanks with pillboxes in the fluff armies that Relic will draw inspiration from, such as the IG chim? Further, in the fluff/tt do these units that are garrisoned within built bunkers or vehicles get an accuracy bonus/penalty and damage taken bonus/penalty to make it more appealing to use such tactics sparingly.

Looking forward to more take and hold units in a game with a resourcing system drawing heavily on the take from / hold from the enemy.

[Croaxleigh]

From what I've heard, Orbital Bombardment actually leaves a molten crater where it strikes... I wouldn't recommend climbing into it for cover. *smiles* It would make sense to have cover in craters and the like, though, and could add a bit more strategy to things if done properly; you could blast certain points in advance to give yourself a bit of a cover advantage, or use craters or other cover areas as fallback points when things start to get too rough.

[Tuna-Frisk]

Molten...ouch. Well on the flipside I suppose that could be used to retreat aswell, like the SMs always use it when the lose a stronghold. Gotta purge this area with fire...well why didnt we do that, except everywhere, and like three months ago?

I digress.

It would be cool to see an adaptive cover system like that though, blast a crater, use it as cover. Perhaps it could add more uses to frag and krak nades, having a krak nade for example deal good damage to anyone in cover because the enclosure.

Or even better, blast you a good hole near your base, a tasty treat for an attacking enemy, unknown to him that its filled with mines. :twisted: I'll show em a trick er two

[goat89]

The Death Korps of Krieg have a specialist Armoured Infantry Assualt vehicles if you want to know.

[CrossLight]

Retreat? Space Marines never retreat.

[TheLoneKnight]

They retreat more often than CSM (zing!) in the TT. Their main advantage is that their retreats tend to be extremely well organised and they regroup very quickly, bracing again to blast away at whoever thought they had the Imperium's Finest routed.

Still, I think it's pretty obvious they'll be using the CoH cover/garrison system, although they may have made improvements to it to take into account close combat and that sort of thing. I wonder if artillery craters actually will act as cover, though - I don't remember them being regarded as cover for my infantry in CoH.

[StickDeath]

As long as flamers ignore cover,a la TT, It'll be all cool.

[Shuma]

Every race in WH40k Retreat when needed, well i duno 'bout 'nids, but thei're not "stupid" so i guess they retreat too.

[TheLoneKnight]

Tyranids in synapse never retreat unless the player controls them wills it. :)

Out of synapse they're more or less like everyone else.

This is because the player is the Hive Mind. What does the Hive Mind care about losing a few more gaunts if it allows the Genestealers to get close enough to wreck the enemy?

[medes]

Space Marines don't retreat! It's called it a tactical withdrawal, hehe..

[Dyntheos]

Aaaand we are moving back to the topic at hand not TT 40k rules.

[Shuma]

I don't really know what we're supposed to discuss, DoW 2 will probably use the same garrisoning and defensive cover as CoH. Units automatically take cover medium, high and negative and garrisoning involves units simply entering a building shooting from it and can entrech themselves in them, probably allowing you to se a "foward base".

/thread

[Croaxleigh]

Well, not everyone is familiar with how cover and such works in CoH. Thanks for explaining it, though. *smiles*

[TheLoneKnight]

If you want to see the type of cover/garrison system DoW2 is likely to use, download the CoH demo. Even though the gameplay will be different it should at least give you a good idea of what you can expect. :)

[Kane935]

I think Tyranids taking cover in a building wouldn't make much sense to me, or orks either, or maybe, some of those orky gits can be abit smart when they want to.

[TheLoneKnight]

Tyranids probably won't garrison stuff, but they should certainly be capable of invading it and stabbing the people who garrison in the face with a nice big scything claw.

Orks totally could, though I doubt it would be of much use; the boyz don't really tend to care what they're shooting at just so long as they're shooting. You might as well have a blind-deaf guy with a gatling gun. He's more likely to hit what you want him to hit. :D

[Kane935]

@TheLoneKnight:

Haha lol thats a good one. Yeah, maybe the Tyranids should be able to clear buildings, not one hit kill it, but enter and fight the inhabitants. Maybe such feature should be applied not to just the Tyranids, but all of the factions being able to use such ability.

[Jordan]

Tyranids could enter a building and hide.. and once another player tries to garrison the building the tyranids kill them, kinda like the booby trap building thing in CoH

[kasrkinsquad]

I do hope they allow people to fight for buildings. CoH doesn't feature this but Act of War did.

I would love sending in a Terminator squad into an Ork held structure.

[Croaxleigh]

If Orks and Terminators are fighting inside of a structure, I feel sorry for the structure.

[Oxyde2]

I'm pretty sure Terminators wouldn't be able to rush into any structure. They'd get stuck in the doorway. :p

No, seriously. A fight between orks and termies would be enough to level the building itself.

[zeromimolette]

kasrkinsquad I do hope they allow people to fight for buildings. CoH doesn't feature this but Act of War did.

Yeah, I totally agree.

Even if it could have been funny to assault a building in CoH, it's not a big deal.

It will become a real issue in DoW2 with units dedicated to close combat as Howling banshees, Khorne berzerker, etc.
They must be able to assault buildings and engage in close combat units in buildings.

Urban warfare will be real urban warfare and close combat units will be more useful than in DOW1.

[Flonky]

Oxyde2: Terminators wouldn't get stuck in the door, they would just assault through the walls. :jester:

I wonder how the player will tell how well the combat is going in the building? Maybe the roof will go transparent so they can see if they are winning/loosing?

[variousgamesfan]

Health bars / a number on the bar showing how many units there are in the squad. As with coh.

[Scinadier]

I don't know if this has been brought up, but it looks as if the two circled chaps in the following picture are taking cover:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8149/assaultjumpcoverhb4.th.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=assaultjumpcoverhb4.jpg)

Hopefully this sheds some light on the cover topic.

PS: It looks more like they are pinned, honestly.

[TheLoneKnight]

If they have fighting inside buildings I hope we see the occasional body tossed out the window, or perhaps structural damage if the units are of a sufficient level of strength. Nobz vs Genestealers and that sort of thing.

I love the idea of 'nids being able to hide in a building, though. I'm not sure if it would be in, but the idea of CC units hiding in a building until someone tries to garrison it just reeks of the stuff Genestealers would pull off. Given that Genestealers are ungodly killing machines in CC, they'd make for a pretty good ambusher, too. Even if the enemy clears the building with CC units beforehand you could have Genestealers hop out of the nearby structures and rush them before they can adequately set up their ranged weapons. :D

[variousgamesfan]

I think you are looking -way- too much in detail on that picture hehe.. to me those lights look like either background details on the map itself or parts of the muzel flash. If nothing else, definitly too minor to be part of an interface.

[Versian]

Taking a closer look at that image does reveal that they seem to be in cover. Interesting that Orks can pin down an enemy though, I thought their accuracy was extremely bad.

[Dethklok]

If they actually do a garrison system, then i want to see a SM go into a building.
*click go in*
Yes Sir.
*marines try to use the door but take out most of the wall with it*

[Scinadier]

variousgamesfan, not only was I referring the yellow rings under the bases of the two Space Marines, I was also referring the fact that they appear to be crouched with their heads low, as if using the cover.

One also has to consider the fact that the Ork tracer rounds are ricocheting off the cover itself.

[Dark_Avenger]

You're going to have to consider the type of buildings they will be occupying as well. These aren't the WW2 buildings we are used to in CoH that are made of wood.

Will be interesting to see how the colsecombat system is going to work with buildings. As with CoH you couldnt touch the building if it was occupied by even just a single sniper.

[Cadian_cameo]

I'd think it'd have to for assault troops to be useful.

Who's gonna build them if they are absolutely curb stomped by a basic squad in a fortified position?

[Tuna-Frisk]

#32: I read before that jump troops can deal damage when they land, the incarnation of this I dunno, but perhaps its just an upgrade that breaks morale or, and i hopes i hopes, they can drop some promethium bombs on the way down to set everyone on fire!

Surely, if they are going to implement a cover system and a deformable environment in which cover can be created virtually anywhere they are going to make the dislodging of an enemy just as difficult as holding the position itself.

The possibilities are delicious. Grenades, Flamers, mabye smash a tank through the walls behind them and just unleash. Or mabye even fire a shell and create a crater near the enemies crater, run your guys in and have some serious trench warfare. Cause Trench is 4 Fite!

I suppose then we can even fire a dreadnaught from space at a fortified enemy, cuz Drop Pods can hit enemies now.

[Croaxleigh]

Tuna: From the way I understood it, the Assault Marines can deal damage by actually landing on the enemy. Apparently having a supersoldier in heavy power armor use a jetpack to arch high up in the sky and then land on your skull kind of hurts a bit.

[Versian]

But wouldn't it also hurt the Marine? I mean the dude has his boosters on even as he goes downwards? The thing is, from the screenshot, I don't see the dude even Trying to slow down.

[Cadian_cameo]

Space Marines are a hardy bunch. Things that are instant death for other races, are a mere inconvenience for the Adeptus Astartes.

[ZimZum]

Marines can endure the landing of a drop pod having fallen through a planet's atmosphere, jet pack landings are nothing. Besides, we're talking about a situation in which they have a big, soft landing pad.

[DoW2]

I hope there is deformable environment, destructible buildings is practically in there. I love how in World In Conflict, troops could stand on opposite ends of my ex-radioactive nuke crater and shoot at each other across the ridges.

CoH pulled off cover well, with a similar but enhanced for DoW version, and some nice flanking features, it's going to be great.

[krusher]

I think it would be pimp to have animations for entering buildings like the marines beating down the door with a power hammer and they go in all swat like, other than that all the ideas above sound good. Hopefully if craters are made they are actually 3d craters that men have to jump in and out for cover.

[AshaD]

Thats a nice idea krusher.

[Avykins]

I wanna see an Assault Marine try to land on a Chaos Lord and get smacked baseball style in mid air O,o

[Shuma]

Why would Terminators even enter a structure? Aren't WH40k Structures made of some patetic material? I bet a terminator would just thunder hammer the structure into oblivion.

[justaplayer]

if they add necrons to it they shouldnt be able to take cover in buildings necrrons morch and kill whatever they see and if thing go south for then they just vanish

[goat89]

Wrong conception Shuma. Very wrong. They dont go and do that! Though, it is viably possible for them to diothat with their Thunderhammers or power or chainfists, provided the structure is weak. Certain cities in WH40K are hiveworlds SPECIFICALLY designed for defence. A good example is Vervunhive in in the Gaunts Ghost series. I recommend everyone to read that series. Its VERY GOOD.

[IVE'S]

Aren't Imperial structures made from that unknown material called ferocrete? Well I'm inclined to speculate that it is some form of concrete mixed with ferro. I don't think it would be much of a match for termis. Which begs the question, can the structures themselves be assaulted, say by Basilisks reducing them to rubble? It would be hard to destroy but would crush any units remaining inside when it goes down. Thoughts?

[Eisenhorn538]

I see assault marines being used to jetpack to beside the structure and toss a few grenades in rather than actually entering the building. It's also means you're less likely to lose troops.

[Cadian_cameo]

Except a couple of Grenades aren't guaranteed to kill everyone in the building.

Besides, there shouldn't be an arbitrary reason why my CQC troops can't charge into a building and fight the troops inside HTH.

Maybe jump jet troops can boost onto the roof of structure, and blow holes in the roof to get in so they don't take as much fire?

[yetanotherplayer]

In CoH it works rather that way. Artillery does a lot of damage to structures, and when they collapse they kill whatever's inside. There are, of course, health bars available on each building when you click on it so you can see if getting in is a good idea or not.

[DoW2]

I wonder if you can get ASM to camp on top of buildings for the high ground... It'd be kind of weird being ASSAULT Marines... But it'd be good vantage/cover spot.

[Tuna-Frisk]

@goat80 #44: A good example is Vervunhive in in the Gaunts Ghost series. I recommend everyone to read that series. Its VERY GOOD.

I would but I just picked up the Ultramarines omnibus :P Just burned through Flight, Fulgrim and Descent in about a week and im starving for Legion.

@IVE'S #45: Which begs the question, can the structures themselves be assaulted, say by Basilisks reducing them to rubble? It would be hard to destroy but would crush any units remaining inside when it goes down. Thoughts?

It makes sense, to fire a shell into a building trying to knock it down. However, I would say that a building, unless its a very large and tall building, collapsing on a space marine prolly wouldnt kill him. Also, Space Marines are the 'come prepared' bunch and I wouldnt doubt that they would have some kind of ability like garrisonable servitors along with marines that would raise the hitpoints of a building or render it otherwise impervious to '1 shell, 1 pile' attacks.

@DOW2 #49: I wonder if you can get ASM to camp on top of buildings for the high ground... It'd be kind of weird being ASSAULT Marines... But it'd be good vantage/cover spot.

In the dark, grim future, there is only war. And no ladders. :(

[opo368]

i hope they give the ability to jump over cover cause running across a half mile long fence just to hit some1 wouldnt be very pleasing :stick:

[Guardian X]

I remember the garrisoning mechanic way back in Red Alert 2, how irrelevant it became during the late game, and how broken it was in some matchups.

-It was broken because it allowed enough mass infantry to safely destroy even lone super-tanks, because they were relatively safe from anti-infantry fire. It didn't matter that they were trying to take down a tank with anti-personnel fire.
-It became irrelevant during the later game because of things like massed tanks and artillery, which would flatten garrisoned buildings in seconds. Because you couldn't rebuild neutral buildings (which is what all garrisonable buildings were) a lost building could not be reused!
-The infantry were completely defenseless against things like artillery and aircraft fire.

If indeed Relic intends to make a garrison mechanic in DoW2, they had best have given it careful forethought. For example, RA2's system could have been vastly improved had they actually let occupying infantry take damage according to the armour class of the building, or if the garrisoned buildings could actually be repaired after infantry had been forced to abandon them. That way, they would not become irrelevant later in the match.

Putting infantry in a building can make them a much deadlier weapon (unlike DoW1's IG garrisoning system), but by no means should it be an unbalanced one. Maybe restricting classes of infantry from entering them could help, such as scouts and tactical squads only for SM (certainly not Terminators!), or Grots, Sluggas, and Shootas for Orks (no trigger-happy tankbustas or too big for you Nobz, no sir!).

Having the infantry take some damage from fire directed at the building, or have the building be vulnerable to template weapons like flamers, artillery or certain missiles would help to balance the situation. Giving certain units (like sniper scouts, grots, or IG Kasrkin squads) "first shot from hiding in a building causes more damage" bonuses would certainly give people plenty of incentive to use them, as well as keep opponents on their toes in urban combat.

Yes, I believe that garrisoned buildings should take damage to the extent that the infantry inside have to abandon them. At the same time, they should be repairable after a balanced period of time (to prevent them from becoming redundant/obsolete). Booby-trapping them is a great idea as well.

I really don't want a repeat of RA2's garrisoning system. I want the announcement of "structure garrisoned" and "structure abandoned" to actually mean something this time around.

[Shuma]

Why are you comparing it to RA2? Instead of y'know... Coh?

[Guardian X]

Shuma:


Why are you comparing it to RA2? Instead of y'know... Coh?

Because I've played the former, not the latter. And besides, no need to repeat the mistakes of the past. Relic already borrowed the metamap mechanic from Westwood Studios (may it rest in peace)--no need to absorb the problems of another mechanic without improving it as well.

[Shuma]

CoH has a good garrisoning system since well, infantry is useless against Tanks so the only think you can do is hide and hope you have some tank to support your troops, or that your troops have Anti-Tank weaponary and hope that it's good enough to pierce the Tank weaponary.

And i don't remember any westwood game having a meta-map system. Didn't that Start in LoTR Battle for Middle earth?

[Guardian X]

No, the metamap started way back in Dune 2: The Building of a Dynasty, where after winning a mission, you could decide where to conquer next. It was Westwood's FIRST RTS game, and possibly one of the pioneers of the genre. The original Warcraft ripped off it so much, you'd swear the nascent Blizzard got a copy of the engine! WHERE'S the JUSTICE?!

But that's a little off-topic. Still, garrisoning, if it's to be fully implemented and not just a one-off feature (like the aircraft in SS were) it should be done carefully and with as much foresight as possible, so as to keep balancing snafus and the ensuing patches to a minimum.

[Shakrith]

Alright. Here are my thoughts on cover:

In the 41st millenium there is only war. And that means there is a lot of artillery. We need to have the right conception of how 40k and CoH differ in how cover is used. I see there are two core differences:

1) Infantry are able to destroy buildings. A marine with a lascannon can knock a hole in a wall with ease, likewise even anti-personnel weapons like bolters use explosive rounds and are likely to cause (limited, albeit) damage to the buildings they fire on. Even sluggas would punch through a thin brick wall. Whereas in CoH you could have riflemen shoot at each other building to building and only the men would get killed, whenever a shot happened to hit one, in DoW 2 if you have a squad of orks and a squad of marines firing at one another from buildings, there is likely to be very little left of either or both buildings, as both sides have acess to man-portable weapons which are powerful versus structures.

2) Melee. I can't stress this enough. You can storm an enemy building and actually fight inside it and force them out. This means that whereas in CoH you had to either bombard it or use flame weaponry et cetera, in DoW 2 you'll just be able to zerg them. And as has been pointed out before, just think what a termie could do to a building. Power fist combat indoors = power fist combat outdoors 2 swings later.

This reminds me of a CoH game I once had, back in the beta of vanilla CoH. I think it was St Hillaire - that's the one with all the industrial buildings, a long thin urban map, right? - anyway, 2v2, my ally disconnected as did an enemy player. My ally had teched just far enough on the vehicle tree (we were Allies) to get a couple of Calliopes, and I went paratrooper. I can't remember the opponent's doctrines.

Anyway, long story short, those two disconnected when we were both waging war in the centre of the map, controlling half each. My axis enemies were occupying all the buildings they could, with volksgrenadiers, machine gunners and snipers, and I had to push against him. So what did I do? I put my ally's remaining vehicles to good use along with my aircraft and the free mortars I got from my air drops, and levelled every single building on his side of the map in a long, ferocious battle.

What I mean to say is, it was the fault of the circumstances how I was both able to and had the need to do that, but in DoW 2 the nature of the game will make that the way everything has to work, but ten times faster and more brutally.

[Alkathor]

I remember reading a story back in either an old White Dwarf or maybe the old Angels of Death codex about marines assaulting a building.

I can't remember who was holed up in the building, but the Imperial Guardsmen couldn't remove them with what they had so they called in the Blood Angels. Five Assault Marines jumped through the walls of the upper floor of the building and slaughtered the defenders.

I think it'd be cool for jump/teleport/climbing troops to be able to enter buildings in ways that regular ground troops cannot.

[IVE'S]

^^^^What he said^^^^

Also take into account, since it is faster and more brutal, whether there will be any buildings left 10mins+ into the game.

[goat89]

Yeah... BA Assualt Marines are ESPECIALLY brutal. The next best chapter which specializes in AMs are probably the Raven Guard/White Scars/Storm Lords.

[Shuma]

I would've though that Raven Guard's Assault Marines where the best in the bussiness.

[Shakrith]

Raven Guard and Blood Angels are both assault marine specialists but use them quite differently. The Raven Guard's paradigm is quick and controlled application of force, and use drop pods, landspeeders, bikes and aircraft readily as well. On the other hand the Blood Angels' paradigm is of engaging the enemy at close quarters in every way possible and rapidly overrunning them, and therefore in addition to their savage assault marines - who are more ferocious than the Raven Guard, more brutal but only a little bit more effective for it - they deploy melee equipped dreadnoughts, Baal pattern Predators with flamers and assault cannons, tactical marines with melee equipment et cetera.

The Raven Guard are a fairly normal chapter in terms of genetics, history and doctrine, whose emphasis on rapid assault comes out of their founding philosophy, purpose and the equipment they happen to have best preserved from the days of the Great Crusade. They follow the Codex Astartes' provisions for stealth combat and guerilla warfare to the letter.

On the other hand, the Blood Angels suffer from a genetic flaw which predisposes them to a kind of battle frenzy which means that they are ineffective at maintaining discipline in ranged combat, and therefore have adopted the use of tactics and equipment which use this ferocity to their advantage and minimises the inconvenience of it.

Now, back to cover and garrison.

The problem I see is that if Relic do what happens in the lore - assault marines and terminators crashing through the walls and roof - they would be so easy to abuse, just knocking down buildings with power armoured living artillery. If assault marines were limited to jumping into windows, I suppose this could be balanced...

[Fightingfirst]

If you can create craters (i.e. cover) with artillery shells, that could lead to the tactic with marines of bombarding an enemy postion then deep striking troops onto the bombarded area. There won't be many opposition left in the area due to orbital bombardment and the marines will all be in cover. That could create a lot of problems for the enemy epspecially if they take a position like that near your base (if bases are included)

[nick2512]

Assault Marines jumping through a window? Totally funny, imagine if you see a marine trying to jump into a window but missed and hit the wall instead. :lol:

Terminators won't fit into a building unless the building is like a bloody palace or a very very big house or a space hulk.

[Fightingfirst]

Termies can just go through the building, in the 41st millenium space marines don't use doors.

[IVE'S]

@ Shakrith: Just one last point. The deadliest of the Blood Angels marines are the Death Company marines. For those who do not know, they are those who have fallen to that genetic flaw and fight even more ferociusly than even Chaos marines before they die. It may be a "flaw" but it is one of their greatest weapons.

[DUDE2150]

Here's what I think:

Now, not all infantry may be allowed to garrison a building or a bunker, units like Obliterators or Mega armored Nobz for instance are too big to enter a building and should have (unable to garrison buildings) in their help texts.

Other light units (ranged and melee) that can garrison buildings can fire only from available openings, being windows, or walls destroyed by weapon’s fire but gain a range bonus, if the number of available firing ports are less than the number of squad members, ones with heavy weapons (if there are any) have the priority to use the windows.

Buildings appear neutral if the occupying units are in “hold fire” stance, useful for preparing an ambush.

Units in buildings receive much reduced damage and accuracy from ranged attacks, but can be picked up one by one by it without damaging the building too much (this does not apply to AOE weapons (grenades and rockets) and arterially which damage the building and units garrisoned in it.

Melee attacks from outside the building don’t damage the units inside the building, but the damaged is completely transferred to the building.

When the building is destroyed all the units inside it die.

Neutral buildings can be accessed by any unit capable of entering buildings from either team, once the building is secured the units may “barricade” it preventing enemy units from entering it while the other team is inside. Units (even enemy units) that are already inside can’t abandon the building if it has been barricaded and must first remove the barricade (which is easier to remove from inside) this prevents the ping pong thing infantry do in COH when a grenade is thrown in the building.

All infantry units can remove the barricade from outside with visable status bar, the time take to remove it depends on the unit removing it.

Unbarricaded (occupied or not) can be accessed by any units capable of entering buildings.

Infantry units can either continue attacking from outside or can attempt storming the building.

All infantry with any sort of attack, even builders who can attack should have a “storm building” attribute or “in building dps” indicating how well the unit is capable of storming the building or defend itself from attackers that stormed the building, this attribute is not related to the original dps of the weapon firing on units in the open, for example a regular bolter should be better at storming the building than the heavy bolter as the heavy bolter is harder to use in cramped places, also guardians are better at storming building than dark reapers, this helps preventing light units from becoming obsolete. Most melee units have higher buildings dps than ranged units but there are some exceptions like Imperial Kasrkins who should be way better that Ogryns at storming a building (Ogryns will just get lost inside!)

When the units in the buildings are engaged by storming units, they can’t fire outside the building and must defend themselves in a special non controllable fight animation using a mix of ranged and melee attacks, that can be viewed from outside however the rate of attacks or the method of attacks doesn’t reflect the actual damage inflicted (it’s just for eye candy) the damage inflicted depends only on inbuilding dps. Squads can be reinforced as normal while fighting in the building and individual casualties are possible.

And last I’d LOVE to see some special animations like units being blown out a window or visible build damage as fighting continues inside.

Now there you have it guys my very own version of how the garrison system should work in DOW 2, if this makes it way into the game I’ll die a happy man!

[yetanotherplayer]

When you say "melee attacks," do you mean special attacks like powerfists/thunderhammers, etc., or any attack? I mean, it's rather silly that Guardsmen can bayonet buildings to death.

[cannonfodder]

People did dig tunnels with spoons though... so hacking a building away with bayonettes might work. It would just take a loooooooooooooong while! :lol:

[Sturmtruppen]

did they really say there will be buildings? i mean, in CoH everyone is human, it makes sense to have a human building, but in DoW you got huge units and tiny units, what building can you use? you can't really fit the theme of all the races with 1 type of building... unless its like a gaint bunker

[cannonfodder]

It really depends on the map. If it's an imperial city (or former imperial city), there will be all sorts of buildings for at least space marines/IG to enter. On the other hand, attacking in the wild or say, an ork planet... well, not much there.

[DUDE2150]

When you say "melee attacks," do you mean special attacks like powerfists/thunderhammers, etc., or any attack? I mean, it's rather silly that Guardsmen can bayonet buildings to death.

Dude what have you been drinking :) ? You might wanna rethink about what you have posted because guardsmen can bayonet buildings to death in DOW 1.

I'm ok if they deal next to no damage to buildings in DOW 2 as long as they deal the same damage to buildable buildings as well.

Hell given the time (and by time I mean 5-6 hours) gaurdsmen can take out a dread with their bayonets.

[Black Champion]

I absolutely hate the idea of my units being locked into a fight to the death when someone assaults a building. Make buildings part of the regular terrain, when units of yours enter them the roof becomes transparent and you can continue to control them as normal. The benefit of buildings is simply the excellent cover bonus against conventional projectile weapons, and units take advantage of this automatically by crouching behind windows, etc. CC and ranged units alike should be able to enter the building and engage the units inside as normal, and the player should be able to order his ranged unit to flee from the CC units using whatever system the game allows for fleeing from CC everywhere else. Buildings should definitely be destructible, when you set a tank or anti-vehicle weapon on them you should be able to punch through and create more entrances until the building is destroyed.

[Cadian_cameo]

Incorporating buildings effectively is gonna be tricky. There needs to be a good balance between the shooty aspect, and the HTH aspect. Make buildings to hard against assault, and nobody will use them. Make them to vulnerable to assault, and there won't be a reason to garrison. Relic definitely needs to come up with a good balance. Ideally speaking, Assault troops should be more effective against Garrisons, but at the same time A garrison should have something working in their favor during an assault.

Maybe Assault troops would have to go through one of a small set of possible entrances, and defenders could use that to their advantage and only fight a few of the attackers at once.

[Versian]

or you could just blow the building up. Most weaponry in 40k can easily tear through other stuff

[nick2512]

You've always got the Plasma Cannon or a Multi-Melta or a Missile Launcher. Why assault a building that gives your assault marines a beating when you can sit back and watch your heavy weapons get to work?

Unless the building is critical to your advance than perhaps it is better to waste a few marines and get the job done? As Cadian said before, the garrisoned troops should be given a few advantages because you CAN defend yourselves easily in tight corridors (unless you got Termies and flash coming your way.)

[Cadian_cameo]

Then we come to the problem that Assault troops won't be useful if all you need to do is nuke the building.

[nick2512]

Assault troops have other advantages too like jumping heroically into the mist of enemies, carving and chopping them up. Assault troops aren't made for assaulting building alone.

[SpaceMarineFan]

When the building is destroyed all the units inside it die.

I disagree. I read a book where a squad of Dark Angels landed on the roof of a building shortly before it was leveled. They survived it too.

[Cadian_cameo]

Yeah. I would think a Space Marine would be able to stand some rubble falling on him.

[Jopax]

Well if he can survive an earthsaker blast i think that a little falling building can't stop a marine.
Also to make the assault troops useful why not use their jump abilities, they can jump on top of a building and suprise the enemy from above, place a bomb above the known enemy position and jump back up to watch the lightshow, heck they can even blow a hol with a grenade in the roof and jump straight in, the possibilities are endless :)

[Avykins]

I just cant picture a SM even fitting in a building let alone a Ork. I would only make it available for some units eg SM scouts, Ork gretchens, but most of the IG excluding Ogryns.

[IVE'S]

But hey they fit into the vanilla Rhinos right?

[brothersamuel40]

Perhaps it depends on different UNITS that can actually survive a building collapsing on them.

I'd love to see disoriented Orks just slowly crawl out of the rubble, the ones that didn't get impaled and trapped, all dazed and randomly hacking stuff.

Literally all the Space Marines would crawl out of the building with just a few scratches, and a nice nick on their paint job


Because I think it could somehow scream "IMBA" if the key thing to defeating a Space Marine opponent is to WAIT for a squad to garrison inside a building, only to easily destroy the building and kill the squad instantly

[CrossLight]

Only thing I'd use a building for is, so my sniper has a nice place to shoot from.

[Versian]

Avykins: Not all doors in 40k in are normal human sized. Structures in 40k tend to be huge, just look at a hive city, big cathedral like Imperial Structures or large Tau Bases. Structures are quite big in 40k. I'm sure large units like SM and Orks can fit in most buildings

[Jopax]

Hey if a terminator can fit inside a sewer side by side with another one why can't a marine fit inside a building.
Frankly i can't see orks getting into buildings, only to clear them out, because they love melee combat they like to rush the enemy, so maybe only grethcin(can't remember their real name) to be able to garrison buildings and automaticly fortify them with guns and stuff.
Also why not make some marines die from a collapsing building, some get buried in the rubble and suffocate, so only a small number survives/dies

[Shakrith]

Orks would die if a building collapsed on them. Scouts would die if a building collapsed on them. Buildings would die if space marines collapsed on them.

I think "instant death" is reading too much into what Relic have said. I think that if you put enough firepower into a building to knock it down, it's likely that your guns would kill the guys inside in and of themselves. I think if a substantial fraction of the squad inside were put out of action, it would be appropriate.

As for who could fit inside, remember that given the amount of firepower that's been levelled at buildings even before the battle, it's unlikely the doors are the only way in.

[Thorgith]

well terminators can crawl through space hulks, so they could prolly fit through/crash through most things.

and maybe you could garison your own melee troops inside a building to 'protect' your shootier troops. Doesnt sound overly feasible though, with only 6 squads per player...

looks like relic has a major job on their hands

[IVE'S]

Yes with 6 squads only, garrisoning would have to play a big part or else i don't see it being used. I would much rather that squad be used in the fist fight on the other side of the map, for example.

However, the 6 squads comment is VERY vague in its use. It has no confirmation whether it is Campaign-only. Also, the 6 squads could refer to lighter infantry (i.e. scouts, tacs, assaults) whereas other limits are enforced for heavier infantry and vehicles.

Once again, without simple details like this we can't really make educated guesses on how garrisoning/cover/etc is going to be implemented.

[brothersamuel40]

@ Jopax


Don't forget about the Kommandos

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/orks/catalog/kommandos.htm

We could really see some Orks moving "EAL SNEAKY LIKE" :D

[Thorgith]

would be nice to have 6 'normal' squads, and about 2-3 specialist squads (termies, criss suits, oblits, etc etc)

it's still early anyway, hard to tell right now

[Jopax]

Yeah, the ork definition of a sneaky blade is equal to a human definiton of "Holy sht that's a frikking huge sword" type of weapon.
But it could be done, also imagine termies having abilities to go troug walls, by hiting them with feet, hammers, shields or shooting trough them :D
Also i could be done that the number of units firing trough windows/holes and the number of units watching the door depends on the squad stance, so if set to defensive the squad would mostly position to optimally watch every entrance while only few of them are firing outside, and if set to agressive the whole squad would shoot trough windows at the enemy, each stance avilable only in buildings and to switch between them would take some time to prevent toying with the enemy outside, or even balanced stance that puts both the offense and defense to medium levels so the squad is good at attacking and defending :D

[Thorgith]

I'd get my termies to knock scratch their backs against the foundations of a building inhabited by guardsmen or other little weaklings. Something gentle like that should shake them up..
And if im feeling evul, i might get them just to walk from one end of the bulding to another

and if im feeling really REALLY evul...
I wonder if you could land drop-pods on buildings...

[DemonOfWrath]

On the subject of units dying when building they're garrisoning collapses, it would have to depend on the unit in question. If a building falls on a squad of guardsmen, you can bet they wouldn't end up well off. However, if one fell on a squad of Terminators, it'd be un-fluffy for them to not shrug it off, as I've read fluff with a Termy surviving being stepped on by a Titan and immediately going back to leading his men (I think it was only a Warhound though), a building shouldn't be much of a problem for something in power armour or above (should pin them and cause a bit of damage, but extreme damage should be highly unlikely unless it's a very big or spiky building).

[cannonfodder]

Mind that fluff is a bit contradictory. In the Gaunt novels, IG owns everyone - to the point where Gaunt survives a daemonic bolter shot into his chest at point blank and one-hit-kills a Chaos Prince (or something like that), and his IG soldiers one-shot kill Chaos Space Marines with their ordinary lasguns. That's... not exactly how it should be working now, is it?

I would not be opposed to units dying/taking serious damage when their building goes down.

[Mithie]

"Assault Terminator Squad Leader calling Chapter master Angelos. Master Angelos, do you read?"

"Affirmative Squad Leader. Report."

"We've breached the xeno filled building, master Angelos. First floor lobby. Enemy contact. Orks. Second and third floor."

"Get on with it, Squad Leader. Cleanse the filth in the Emperor's name!"

"We... can't, sir. We can't access the upper floors. The lift is malfunctioning."

"WHAT?"

"Brother Malchador tried the stairs sir. He..."

"And?"

"He... fell through, sir. The hotel was inadequately designed to accomodate two ton terminator suits, sir."

"Damn those techpriests! How many times must I tell them - "

"M...m...master?"

"What is it now?"

"The grots, sir... they're MOONING US!"

"May the Emperor protect us... "

[{OGS}Sirius]

I HOPE they have active vehical cover: Lets say i bring in a chimrea my guardies come out getting and are under fire well if they move to the other side of the chimrea the chim can give a defense bonus to the troops behind the chim. Thus you have mobile defense thanks to any vehical on the field almost any, and i hope vehical wrecks can act as cover tooo. Hell i hope they have line of shot instead i can shoot pass anyone abiilits.

[Noble]

That's almost guaranteed to be the case Sirius. The essence engine does a pretty good job of actually occluding projectile paths with things like tanks, terrain and buildings. All of the things you describe were present in CoH, I don't see why they wouldn't be in DoW2.

In CoH, derelict tanks not only got in the way of projectiles, but would actually count as medium or heavy cover and provided those bonuses to troops huddling down near by.

[{OGS}Sirius]

yeah i played coh but dow didnt have it ;p. I can't waith though i can hide behind anything until someon ob or throw a frag.

[Deacon412]

i think this will be one of the coolest aditions to dow, i hope theirs the ability to have fighting in buildings

[Dark_Avenger]

@noble.
Except for the fact that the tanks would move just slightly and the infantry would go haywire trying to figure out what's going on.

I also don't know if thats the case right now with tanks in CoH.

[Thorgith]

in CoH the tanks didnt offer over while alive, only when dead i think

[nick2512]

I've never paid attention to that in CoH, if that get implemented and that would actually made the Chimera a little more useful as a bullet soaker.

[Noble]

Living tanks do not offer actual "cover" while alive. That is, you don't see the little green and yellow dots indicating that your men will receive the actual cover bonuses. They do, however, block shots. If you put a tank between your men and a down range machine gun, that MG won't be able to hit your men at all. It may still pin though.

[Drachenfell]

Ever since I heard how Endwar would have people hugging Walls and firing around corners. Blind firing and breaching doors I always hoped we'd see that in DOW2. Here's hoping that they implement a cover system that allows a massive degree of unit interaction. Such as hiding behind a wall and blindfiring around it or something similar.

[Cortlendt]

I want to see active vehicles (not only destroyed) provide cover. Or large walkers, bosses.

[Ruckuz]

I just hope and pray. We don't have orkz just waving their choppas next to a building indicating their attack a garrisoned building.

[TheLoneKnight]

From what I've seen of the Essence Engine I find it far more likely they they might actually charge into the building and start kicking the living snot out of everyone inside. :D

[Ruckuz]

I know this is off-topic but out of curiosity, is the essence engine the most advance rts engine so far?

[Jopax]

I don't think so, i belive it's SupComs enegiene, able to render thousands of units with their physical attributes

[NeoHunter]

Well, as far as I know, you need to have a killer rig to run that game with all its settings and features set to maximum. Not practical in my opinion.

Back to topic then.

I sure hope Relic doesn't follow Electronic Arts in how the did with Command & Conquer 3 when clearing out enemy garrison units. Its rather restrictive that only certain types of units can clear out a garrisoned building. I mean, who wants to see Grots charge into a building and attempt to clear out a building garrisoned by a squad of Assault Space Marines? As stupid as it may sound (hilarious too), at least it means you can use anybody to clear out garrisons.

[Ruckuz]

Ive never played C&C3. what do you mean clear out garrisons? how is it done/look like?

[NeoHunter]

In Command & Conquer 3, each faction had a few units that had the special ability to clear out garrisoned structures with their weapons. For example, the GDI had Grenadiers who could lob in some grenades into the building and the garrisoned units inside would be instantly killed. This was rather restrictive in the sense that if you were rolling your force through an urban area and you encountered a garrisoned structure, you would have to retreat and find another way around if you did not bring units that were equipped to clear out buildings. Or you could blast that buiding with whatever you got at the moment and lose one or more units in the process.

[RagnarBlackmane]

everyone here who seems to think this is going to be even remotely close to cc is way off. This is also a differnt setting all together we not not talking humans...were talking supersoilders, worshipers of chaos, masses of human armies, incects the size of a pickup truck etc etc this is not going to be any company of heros. Builing will not crush marines read the books ...their freakin crazy strong. Chaos actually enjoy pain.

Having said this i can see how being in a damaged building woudl damage/destroy a teams heavy weapons perhaps do slight damage etc. Also if your being shot at by artillery no doubt you can shoot back with your own. This is a new playing field you cant even start to compare 40k to COH or CC. This is going to be ground breaking as was dow1 think about this as a entirley new game. One last thing remember this is not COH engine. Its a improved version of the essence engine. so yer

[Shakrith]

If they have flamers clearing out a building in one go, that would be ridiculous. It works well in CoH or C&C3 where the units are basically human, but spraying fire onto space marines isn't going to clear them out. It's not going to do them any good, that's for sure, and you certainly can kill them with flamers, but it's not instant death, or even as quick as other weapons.

[Captain Commie]

For all the ways they have to blow a building up I hope they have an equal amount to fortify. I.E. If I know some chaos terminators might try and bust through this very important building, why dont my GM set a little trap up with some grenades and a couple melta bombs. I figure if It can melt a tank it can melta a terminator. If they can balance the foritifying and assualting aspects of buildings that would add a whole new edge to the game.

In addition if they are going to feature close combat as in DOW2 than they should add an "absolute cover" option for troops in cover. All it does is give troops 100% damage immunity to weapons with no area of effect at the price of not being able to shoot back or move out of that cover. Why would this be cool you ask? You could pin down the troops in cover who won't shoot back and then CHARGE!!!! Or on the flip side rather than have your troops get massacered by a HB wall they can duck and wait out an artillery strike. All we are trying to simulate is troops keeping thier heads down when there's overwhelming firepower.

[NeoHunter]

Hmm...how about this?

If you want to attempt to clear out a garrisoned building, you must send in more guys than the number of enemy infantry in the building?

Good idea? Stupid idea?

[Cadian_cameo]

Kinda stupid.

A building Garrisoned by Imperial Guardsmen shouldn't require more than their number in assault terminators to clear it.

[Tesla]

im interested to see how this is going to play out, i would say that the weapons such as flamers would do damage to the buildings until they collapse, but since most of the Gothic architecture in 40k is mostly made of stone and metal i don't see how thats going to work

but i highly doubt insta kill garrison will be in like C&C

maybe flamers will simply force the people out of the building rather than killing them, and no one can enter the building while it is still covered in flame

[Cadian_cameo]

I think Certain buildings shouldn't receive extra damage from flamers. A gigantic stone cathedral isn't exactly flammable.

You should be forced to charge inside the building and take them out CQC.

[Guardian X]

Here's an elegant solution for ensuring the usefulness of buildings; make some of them the objectives/strategic points in city-based maps! Makes them easier to defend and gives an actual point for the enemy to capture them! Of course, to ensure their usefulness throughout the match, you would have to do something like take my earlier suggestion and make them essentially indestructible, except that if they take a certain amount of damage all troops inside must abandon it, but it can be repaired and recaptured by anyone later.

Another page they could take from TT would be to take the advantages of the strategems from Cities of Death. Giving infantry near an important building an appropriate bonus like increased regeneration, better morale or the like would give plenty of incentive for capturing them.

Of course, races like Tyranids or Orks wouldn't likely be able to use them all--why would they gain a morale bonus from defending ground sacred to loyalist Imperial forces or gain a regeneration bonus from a Medical Facility that they don't know how to use? A little ingenuity, however, could pull the battle in their favour (such as Orks gaining extra resources from controlling scrap piles of little use to anyone else, or Tyranids gaining extra mobility from sewer tunnels that only a few units from other races, like Space Marine Scouts, Kasrkin Squads, Grots, and Cultists, can use, whereas Tyranids can move bigger squads of more powerful units through them.

A little ingenuity can pre-emptively solve a lot of problems and make the game more interesting to play, all at the same time!