DoW 2 Race Perks

[Panama]

Hi, I couldn't see this being discussed anywhere else and so I thought it's something I would bring up.

In DoW2 would you like to see perks for the races/chapters? For example if Eldar are included the alaitoc craftworld could have more ranger squads. If chaos are included the iron warriors could have access to special types of tanks. What advantages could the other races/chapters have? Space Marines Iron Hands could be more resistant to damage to show their bionics and so on

Your thoughts on this?

Also if the army painter included features to give perks to your created chapters, how would it work

[Kapp'n]

I would like to see something like this in DoW2. I suppose it would add a new dimension to the game and make each chapter more unique and perhaps worth while to use.
It would also be nice to experiment with these perks for your custom armies.

[Versian]

It's kinda what my idea has been so far. Sell the game in Codices, each codex has only one army (for example, Space Marines). However, each codex comes with a number of different sub-armies (for example, the Space Marine Chapters: Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Woves, etc.)

The same idea can be used for almost every army. Chaos has Legions, Tau have Hunter Cadres, Imperial Guard have Regiment Worlds, Eldar have Craftworlds, etc.

[Rednova88]

I think something like this would be great, that way people can really get absorbed into the game and find a Chapter/ect. that they really like.

Kind of like Command and Conquer: Red Alert with all the separate factions/nations, they were all still the same, but each one had perks, like Great Britain had a massive Guardian Cannon, and Lydia(?) had explosive trucks but everything else was the same.

I'd be curious as to what the Blood Ravens would have as their own perk, we know the other chapters pretty well from all the fluff, but the Blood Ravens don't have a lot of fluff to go on do they? http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/bloodravens/ is all I could really find out about them.

The Blood Ravens chapter seems to be fond of their Librarian unlike some other chapters *cough* Space Wolves *cough* who actually seem to despise psykers and go out of their way to attack them, and tend to prefer fast melee attack strategies.

So maybe the Blood Ravens should have a stronger Librarian than the others. While on the other hand a chapter such as the Space Wolves should have increased melee capabilities.

P.S. Sorry if my fluff is off, please don't hurt me :bricks:

[Faenaris]

It would be nice to see "sub-factions" which have a different focus. However, this would eliminate the "division" of the main faction. For example, if you add the different craftworlds, you can add specialisations, like Alaitoc craftworld having more rangers. Coh however used one faction and three specialisations (Blitzkrieg, Terror and Defense for example). Both systems would cancel themselves out, no?

I would kill for an Imperial Fist faction though. :grin

[Croaxleigh]

I think it would be a really bad idea to have specific factions included in the mod, and outside of the campaign it's pretty much guaranteed not to happen. Not only would it ruin the "generic" feel of Dawn of War, but GW would most likely have a hissy fit. And that's not even considering the people who would start complaining because folks were playing the Chapters and such "wrong."

[Green Tide]

I would rather like this implemented in an "Army Creator" feature, with let's say, 4 or 5 default "subraces", for each race. As usual, you can choose colours and whanot, but you can also choose the respective advantages and disadvantages of your subrace, say, for example, you start with 0 points to customize your subrace, "No librarian/sorcerer/whatever" disadvantage gives you X points, you can use these points to add the "valorous troops" advantage, that gives extra morale (or whichever DoW2 morale equivalent will be) and attack to infantry. That would be the a good way to add perks on different subraces, and at the same time, leaving the player to customize which perks wants his/her subrace to have.

[TimW]

I'd be curious as to what the Blood Ravens would have as their own perk, we know the other chapters pretty well from all the fluff, but the Blood Ravens don't have a lot of fluff to go on do they? http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/bloodravens/ is all I could really find out about them.

If you go here: http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/bloodravens-indexastartes/1/ then you can download the Blood Raven's Index Astartes article, which contains pretty much all the fluff about them. I guess their perk would be being able to get a librarian in the place of a force commander or something like that.

Most chapters, even the famous ones, adhear close enough to the codex that you wouldn't notice much difference in game play terms. Some are so different (Black Templars and Space Wolves) that you'd need a new faction to do the properly.

If Relic went down this route, they'd be better off with something similar to the traits system in the new SM codex.

[nick2512]

@Rednova: Space Wolves don't despise psykers, they have a different name for the psykers though. Rune Priests is what they are called and the functionsof the Rune Priests within a Space Wolves company are, sagas telling, consult the Great Wolf about campaigns and roles as any librarian in other chapters.

If you're talking about a psyker hating chapter than you can go straight to the Black Templars, they don't have any Librarians in their ranks, none at all.

[Pick_Me]

This does sounds like it could have potential to be awesome, in the same way I think it could make the game horrible. I'll try and say this without using any actual codex's. If one side choses a vehicle heavy army, the other side choses an anti-vehicle army. Infantry gets beat by Vehicle and infantry vs infantry more or less stalemate and so on....

The great part about having the whole unit type at your disposal is that you can change your army and strategy on the fly according to how your opponent plays. Also it doesnt allow for either side to know what is about to pop out of the fog at them or what is in the opponents base when they attack.

I hear people playing TT bitch about armies that are a certain army "killer" and they dont like to play them because they're cheese/imba/etc and I feel thats what your idea would create in the game as it does in TT.

I also think thats kinda how CoH plays and thats exectlly why my friends and I stopped playing it in a couple weeks. I could be wrong about CoH because as I said, I only played it a couple weeks.

Sooo...thats all I really have to say about that, you can take it how you like.

[Hirmetrium]

I'd be curious as to what the Blood Ravens would have as their own perk, we know the other chapters pretty well from all the fluff, but the Blood Ravens don't have a lot of fluff to go on do they? Attually they have pretty good backstory relating to their lost unknown primarch - this leads to a strange quest for knowledge amongst blood ravens, and their libarians are particularly powerful as a result. Their battlecry (one of the suggested it seems) is "Knowledge is power". Rather befitting them, wouldn't you agree?

I'd expect blood ravens to have powerful libirians and more powerful physic based skills as a perk IF it was included.

Right now a perk system for chapters looks very unlikely. The only perks would perhaps come through a COH doctrine style system, which may not even be included for the sake of keeping it much more DoWish and focused.

[Versian]

One main problem is that different main armies have different amounts of sub-armies. DE have like what, 5 kabals? While there are lots of Space Marine Chapters and CSM Legions.

There will be complaints, sure. But with good balance (differences should not be so great, the sub-armies must follow the general strategy of the main army) and the ability to create your own Sub-army (at least based off an existing sub-army) it can be pulled off successfully.

[Rednova88]

Well it seems that I was wrong about the Space Wolves and the Blood Ravens (thanks for the link TimW). I think Versian has the right idea going, though.

[PitSoulja]

Negative the black templar do use psykers including a squad of Grey Knights which may be present in any of the chapters

[Imperial Dane]

Change perks to traits and then we can begin talking, because i have thought a lot about this and posted on this as well.

But overall:
They should not be faction specific, generally they should be generic so as to allow people to create whatever they want.
No Steel legion trait, no catachan trait and so on. The codexes i think already have something like this and it could be worked into the game with a bit of thinking.

[goat89]

They use Grey Knights???? Thats damn interesting

[Shadow Walker]

they do not use GK.GK are the only psionics that are allowed to fight together with BT.one of the vows of BT is - abhor the witch, destroy the witch - and GK and probably sanctioned navigators are the only exceptions

[Tcharzanek]

I think the 'perks' idea is a good one. For example, maybe Blood Ravens could have slightly superior Librarians with extra abilities.

[Avykins]

Id like Sergents to have a low level psyker ability even if its just a weak lightning effect. Itd still add something to every unit.

[Tcharzanek]

I would like Sergeants (both SM and IG) to have more leadership abilities, since they are technically veteran troops.

[Imperial Dane]

what ? Sergeants with a low level psyker ability ? Makes no sense, not at all. Besides perks/traits should work more towards the entire force, changing it towards a players style, perhaps giving it a few new units in exchange of others.

I mean as an example of a perk/trait for the imperial guard could be grenadiers, or stormtroopers, although i think stormtroopers would be more suited for a doctrine, but with grenadiers in that way it would be a simple choice for players if they want troopers like that or something else, they might choose a trait that allows another type of leeman russ perhaps, or makes guardsmen cheaper, allows conscripts and so on. Many possibilites.. but calling it perks ? sounds to .. perky.

[Tcharzanek]

@Imperial Dane: I agree with you, but Avykins has a point with certain armies, like Eldar (of both flavours) and certain Chaos armies for example.

[Imperial Dane]

Sure but some of those things discussed aren't perks/traits but mere suggestions for a suggestion box.

[Tcharzanek]

I think that these 'perks' maybe should focus more on sort of historical stuff and less on power-gaming, because sometimes this could 'max-out' certain forces obscenely.

[Imperial Dane]

Historical stuff ? Eh ? Besides as traits, sure they might grant one advantage, but there will be a disadvantage on the other hand as well. For example you take the light infantry trait for the imperial, sure they become stealthy and a little faster and all that, marksmen even ( abit like the british recon upgrade) But on the other hand, they won't have access to that many special weapons nor heavy weaponry, plus some upgrades that might have made them tougher or harder won't appear at all.
You might choose a trait that replaces the standard leman russ with a conquerer but that will lead to another tradeoff, you choose grenadiers, you get tougher infantry, but they are more expensive, so that will have to be taken into account, and you could go on. As said, perks make it sound like a bonus, it should be a trait, something that defines the regiment/chapter/something, i mean you might have a trait for the space marines that makes them more assault oriented or grants them access to variants of their vehicles and so on.

It should be seen as a way to customize the army to a way that suits you, not just pump it up, hell you can even not use traits and have a regular army that will theoretically be as good as any other army that is using traits, it all depends on the player, otherwise you might as well remove the idea of doctrines.

[DoW2]

Yeah. I don't think it'd be possible to get seperate factions within a race. It's too much work. Maybe not on the actual 'work' side... But balancing a dozen Chapters and a dozen more Craftworlds is a lot. I liked the idea of the CoH-esque Doctrines better, with units from a specific faction loosely assigned to a Doctrine. For example Blood Angels would be Close Combat, you get their units, but you can still use your paint. (That way we avoid making someone play a specific Chapter, and keep their own custom army) - Then just replace Blood Angel unit names with more "generic-ified" names.

If it were my choice though... I wouldn't delve too deep in the separation of the Races. Keep the races the same as they are, and give each Race the perks. Space Marines already have perkish kind of perk because they can drop or deep strike their units in. Maybe IG get a time, cap or resource boost when making vehicles... Something like that.

[Tcharzanek]

Logical...

[Boomstar]

I would like to see a doctrine system very similar to CoH. It fits perfectly with 40k as well.

For example Orks could have:

Speed Freaks doctrine, focus on moving quickly around the battle field. Focus on light fast vehicles, and maybe some bomba raid stuff.

Kommando doctrine, the focus here would be sneaky orks and "elite" orkies. Things like call in kommando squads and tougher stronger boyz. And abilities that help you make sneak attacks on the enemy.

Eavy Armor doctrine, the focus on here would be on kanz dreads and anything big and ard. Mega Armored Nobs, battlewagons, could be call ins, or be given additional abilties by choosing this faction.

Marines are even easier as they mostly always fight with doctrines.

[Imperial Dane]

Okay.. i can't make much sense of what DoW 2 says..

But okay, i'll try and answer:


Yeah. I don't think it'd be possible to get seperate factions within a race. It's too much work. Maybe not on the actual 'work' side... But balancing a dozen Chapters and a dozen more Craftworlds is a lot. I liked the idea of the CoH-esque Doctrines better, with units from a specific faction loosely assigned to a Doctrine. For example Blood Angels would be Close Combat, you get their units, but you can still use your paint. (That way we avoid making someone play a specific Chapter, and keep their own custom army) - Then just replace Blood Angel unit names with more "generic-ified" names.

Okay, no factions, yeah that wouldn't work, more than just balance, i would imagine, and your doctrines idea seems just to be a way of sneaking in factions, it shouldn't, doctrines are a strategical approach taken to something, it shouldn't be something to magically change the entire army into a different kind of army.


f it were my choice though... I wouldn't delve too deep in the separation of the Races. Keep the races the same as they are, and give each Race the perks. Space Marines already have perkish kind of perk because they can drop or deep strike their units in. Maybe IG get a time, cap or resource boost when making vehicles... Something like that.

What.. space marines already have perks ? i don't get it.. and give them perks ? I mean perks should be something chosen, and again i would rather see traits, i mean something like the IG ones in the codex (although i think they are called doctrines, i would say they are effectively traits) There should be a plus and a minus to choosing a trait.. a bit like fallout :) You choose light infantry, you get some bonuses like more stealthy infantry, perhaps marksmen with them, but you get a cap on heavy weaponry and you can't get grenadiers or stormtroopers, or there might be a trait that allows your leman russes to become conquorers, who might be a little faster, but don't do nearly as much damage and so on. At the same time players shouldn't be forced to choose traits, if they felt like going with a regular army, then they should be able to do that.

[blueboy93]

Having different IG Regiments, Eldar Craftworlds, Chaos Gods/Legions & SM Chapters totally different will make Offline re playability far greater.

[Croaxleigh]

Please, folks, keep it on-topic... this doesn't include side-discussions about whether different types of gamers will enjoy DoW2. Thanks. *smiles*

[Imperial Dane]

Having different IG Regiments, Eldar Craftworlds, Chaos Gods/Legions & SM Chapters totally different will make Offline re playability far greater.

I think that would work better in a faction themed thread.. this is more of a perks/traits thread. Besides, factions are all too specific, can't really make custom colour schemes and own armies on that background.

Moving on to the traits again.

To give an example, look at the codex guard doctrine system:http://uk.games-workshop.com/imperialguard/doctrines/
and replace doctrine with trait as that would make more sense overall.

[Guardian X]

Never mind that GW didn't make all of them equally viable--I have a feeling that just like TT, Iron Discipline will be universally taken, while Chem-Inhalers and (Emperor Forbid) Warrior Weapons will be completely ignored.

[Imperial Dane]

Well that will always happen i imagine, and it was more the system of setting it up i imagined in a way. I'm pretty sure that relic would have to come up with a few traits of their own for this.

[inquistor_c]

even if they dont include different traits for factions they should include an option in the army painter say for SM

plasma doctrin +5% plasma damage +5%set up time for heavy weapons
CC doctrin +5% close combat damage -5ranged damage

eg along the lines like that but balance them out.

[Tcharzanek]

I think there should be different traits based on the tabletop rules.

http://forums.relicnews.com/images/userbars/tyranid.jpg

[TheMiracul]

Kinda reminds me of Worms world party, where each team could chose their special weapon... would be nice but u would have to add 7 or 8 adition units that could be used for this...
I would make just some units more powerfull for a faction (but that could make some strats imba), or raise the hard cap maybe

[Danustar]

:bump: I reckon a fairly simple addition would be to at least allow for Chapter specific unit armour and identity. Regardless of performance buffs I just think it would be ubercool if your Dark Angels Terminators popped out in Deathwing colours or your Blood Angels ASM were recognised as Death Company etc, etc.

:twocents:

[firestorm]

if we're staying with the 3 doctrine system as with dow, here's some generic docs i'd like to see for imperium:

marines:
codex: honor guard and etc call ins, no mods to units
zealous: close combat/morale specialization, sword brethren/death company, worse ranged ability
stern: ranged/stealth specialization, better scouts and long-range combat units, worse close combat ability

guard:
elite infantry: grenadiers/light infantry, very high powered infantry units, weak and expensive armour
armoured company: high emphasis on tanks, able to access leman earlier and mods of leman like demolisher and vanquisher, weak infantry
meat grinder: many officer-based auras and abilities, cheap but weak infantry, higher infantry pop

[Mikaelus]

Certain perks could possibly represent different chapters and legions.