Dark Eldar Soultorm ability

[Radical]

Isn't it a little underpowered? I mean, it doesn't last long, does little damage (except to builders and IG) and is supposed to be the "ultimate" power in the DE arsenal.

I'm basing this idea on the Soulstorm being DE's answer to massed infantry in later tiers.

[Heathen]

I agree. I played against a DE player in a 2vs2 who cast it directly into my line of Fire Warriors. I didn't notice it at first, because I was busy with managing stuff at the front (Stealth Teams, Pathfinders and the TC). When I finally noticed it, it had already been there for quite some time and VERY slowly damaged my FW. I withdrew them from the affected area and didn't lose ONE UNIT to this uberpwnage power... :rolleyes: :D

[Chris]

The problem with the soul/faith powers is that they basically have no warning and there is really no way to avoid being affected by them initially. Your only options against these types of powers is damage control and roll with the punches which is a very tricky situation to balance out, it'd be so easy to overbuff the abilities and then the Soulstorm would just turn into a "haha I clicked a button and now you're fucked" ability.

If Dark Eldar need nerfing/buffing in any way I'd much rather see it done to the units etc. rather than the soul powers.

[konfeta]

If Soulstorm is to be buffed in damage output, it would need to adopt similiar mechanics and limitations to Superweapons from Command and Conquer series. Because that is what it would essentially become, a Nuke/WeatherStorm/IonCannon/Whatever.

[ImmortalChaos]

IMO it is fine. It can potentially do 440 damage, and it is near unescapable.

If anything is to be buffed, I'd increase its AoE a tad so that it was harder to avoid by spreading out, but its a fine line between Ok but nothong special and sheer rape.

[Heathen]

"I'd increase its AoE a tad"

That sounds like a good idea. As I said, I simply... walked out of it. If it were bigger (but did the same amount of damage), it would already be a lot more effective I suppose.

[ImmortalChaos]

Well, since the DE player can move the ability, you really should not be able to wak away from it if the DE player is paying attention.

[Heathen]

It's very slow-moving, though. And maybe he wasn't, dunno...

[konfeta]

I personally think it shouldn't be a damage ability. Pure damage abilities are typically either sucky or overpowered, but they are always boring. It should have been something that ties in with the DE playstyle, that rewards a player for working with it but does nothing otherwise.

[Sir_Suckalot]

How about adding a morale breaking effect?

[HiveMind]

I find that the problem is that it has terrible pathing, which makes it almost impossible to follow someone. Every time I try to use it, even against the computer, it gets confused and doesn't move to where I want it to. It should have an ability that lets it follow a unit. That would make it harder to avoid the full damage, and thus increase its effectiveness without making it instant-kill you with one click.

[Rev'var]

I agree that it's pathing needs to be fixed, but that's all. Soulstorm is killer when it's used with your army and your other powers (Dark Scythe *cough cough*). If you're using it alone and expect to kill something I honestly hope something kills you.

[Compeador]

SoulStorm is pretty uber, dunno wtf you guys are talking about. Use it on the right targets at the right time and it can win a battle quite decisively.

[Gerrymanders]

SoulStorm is pretty uber, dunno wtf you guys are talking about. Use it on the right targets at the right time and it can win a battle quite decisively.

What he said. Soulstorm can't be spammed by any means but you use it right and its pretty raptastic.

[Pocktio]

The only use for SS I have is if I want to get an army to move, ie mass HBs...soulstorm and they have to run away so I can shoot them in the arse.

[Radical]

Okay, let me dissect it:

1) Poor path-finding.
2) Costs souls. A lot of them.
3) Relatively small radius.
4) Tier 3.
5) Has a relatively long recharge time.

So, after taking all that into account, I believe it should have either:

1) Greater damage.
2) Deal it all at once.

These are my opinion why it doesn't fit into the DE strategy as it is:

1) It works slowly while on the other hand the DE strategy requires quick, surgical strikes.

2) It's very bad at the only thing it should be good for, that being killing massed infantry.

[konfeta]

An clicky ability that goes "lolz, ur infantries r gonez!" is overpowered. Did the last three games teach you nothing? Or what about Dark Scythe, from the very same race?

[ImmortalChaos]

Yeah, pretty much.

Heres my personal change list:

-Move speed increased to 20
-Made into a "flying" unit so it can pass through any terrain and unit.

[Gerblyn]

lol, it can't move through enemy units? I wish that worked with real storms. I could just get my little brother to stand around in Rotterdam blocking the storm so it can't get to me hanging out on the beach in the Hague :D

[Radical]

Okay, compromise.

Shorter cooldown, does only moral damage and knock-back (similar to the Organ gun from the SoB). IMHO, that make it useful unlike now, where it's "lolz, he's uzing Soulstorm, so he must be desperate".

[CyberFish]

As much as it seems weak, I don't think buffing the damage is the solution - it would be way to easy to turn it into a Win Button.

Increase the area of effect, sure. Fix the pathing, speed it up, or make it a flying unit, also good. Add some morale damage, even better. Decrease the soul cost, maybe. But please don't buff the damage.

[Energizer Bunny]

I don't agree with the entire concept of the abilities for the new SS races, but that said I do think the soulstorm ability is somewhat poor for a T3 ultimate ability. I would advocate either giving it some form of disruption or possibly removing friendly fire.

On the other hand, the likes of IG and Chaos make do with crappy ultimate spells.

[zer0nix]

removing friendly fire (or simply reducing it to a mangable level) would ensure that i (and everyone else) would absolutely use it at the same time that all my troops are on the battlefield. this is not entirely necessary of course and i imagine would be hard to balance or counter.

not sure what y'all mean by 'poor pathing' and never experienced the ability being blocked by enemy units. (EDIT: nvm, just experienced this last night) i do wish it could pass through any terrain though (or, like aircraft, MOST terrain. sadly, the aircraft in ss do not fly over all high terrain, even terrain which does not seem that high, which i consider bugged).

i agree with making it faster OR making the radius larger (the aoe is actually a bit larger than the actual green 'control circle' for the soulstorm and can hit quite a few units if you let it off and move it into the right spots). enhancing both is overkill.

regarding the soul cost, i've rarely cast it in small games and i never find myself in short supply of soul when it becomes availible (i really don't make full use of all the abilities on hand -just haven't developed the habit yet, though i'm getting better each time i play) so i can't comment on that.

i have one more criticism to add. the soul storm ability looks less like a storm than a travelling pink fog -which looks quite cool but not much like what i'd call a storm. i'd add something to it so it looks more... hellacious. one of the grey knight commander's abilities in the inquisition mod (the one with the ghosts) appears quite busy and random for instance and not at all homogenous -much more 'storm-y.' just throwing this out there.

[Slyfe]

I think this is one of the least things id worry about when i consider ss balance...soulstorm potentially rapes and many a times ive tried runing from it just to find it keeps up fairly well.

If it were up to most DE players it would be another dark scythe style ability.

[5Ssham]

It should really fly, why would a storm of souls care about pathing

but it isnt a big deal

[D153453D]

If it were up to most DE players it would be another dark scythe style ability.

Agreed. Do they really need another wtfpwn ability?


On the other hand, the likes of IG and Chaos make do with crappy ultimate spells.

Agreed. Not every race should have awesome damaging abilities. Different races have different perks and different cons ( some more than others ).

[RexOmniaLupus]

On the other hand, the likes of IG and Chaos make do with crappy ultimate spells.
If you're referring to Strafing Run and Corruption those are not directly comparable to Soulstorm. They are both free to cast (though Corruption needs a cheap one-time upgrade first.) They are bound to units that must be bought first, but as long as they don't die the spell can be cast multiple times with no additional investment. They also don't have the ability to be cast anywhere there is LOS and must be cast near the units.

And really, Strafing Run is a perfectly fine ability. It is no Orbital Bombardment, but it gets the job done. Corruption though, is quite awful.


If it were up to most DE players it would be another dark scythe style ability.
Really? Asked them all their opinion about it did you?

[D153453D]

If you're referring to Strafing Run and Corruption those are not directly comparable to Soulstorm.

They shouldn't be. That's what I'm saying. It shouldn't be like other abilities. It should be unique as the race itself.

[Xanthian]

And it is unique. It's a movable PI.

The problem is that its movement sucks, and it's further amplified by the fact that it's blatantly obvious what area it's affecting, unlike psychic inquisition.

[vampiric puppy]

When i first started playing SS i thought that the soulstorm power was a little weak, but if you manage to get one off without a player noticing it, it does a very decent amount of damage, can obliterate several squads.

As far as i'm concerned, however, it is Dark Eldar's best tool for 'cover clearing' available, drop it on a turtled area of heavy cover and your opponent is very likely to run out of it, and if they dont, well... that works to your advantage too ;)

[zer0nix]

i have a feeling i'm going to regret saying this: the aoe of psychic inquisition is blatantly obvious, just not as much as soulstorm's; look for which units of yours have lightning around their heads. no more lightning = you're out of it's aoe. if you see lightning then you are taking damage and you need to haul ass.

[Mardhyn]

SoulStorm is incredible. As your two armies are about to clash use it, and basically the battle is tipped in your favor. Though in a 1v1 things aren't going to be set up so nicely.(Usually) And if you don't think its good, consider this, it will always stay on top of the enemy(if you are watching that is) and after 20 seconds have dealt 440 damage. Thats more then enough to obliterate IG squads, as well almost kills taq's/most infantry.

[Xile]

The ability to cast the Soul abilities at any time/any where make it pretty uber in itself.

I don't rely on Soulstorm to kill infantry. I use it for purposes of disruption and to keep infantry on the move. This allows me to swam in the eat up ranged units. (also protects our uberweak sauce Dogs long enough to catch them). However, if my opponent doesn't move, it softens them up real nice to couple Soulstorm with the instant morale killer. Those two Soul abilities rape any infantry I'm about to storm.

DE isn't very traditional. They rely heavily on morale breaking - they have no real disruption ability (i.e. OB, any tank blasts, FPrisms). They do make up for it with their Soul Powers.

As a DE player, my only issue with Soulstorm is its cooldown rate. Soulstorm IS our T3 disruption. The Archon's ability to turn enemies on themselves, Hemonculus's Torture Pit, - all 1 time things with a considerble cool down. Fire Prisms, Whirlwinds, Lemon Russ, Basiliks, Defilers all have constant Disruption. I'm not asking for instant reusage of it, but a slightly better cooldown would be nice.

[Dunxco]

Woah, woah, woah... You can MOVE the SS? I was aware it had a footprint, but I wasn't aware you could move it :Oogle:

[mlai]

I'm not asking for instant reusage of it, but a slightly better cooldown would be nice.
I'd say:
1. Remove ability to make soul gibs at base.
2. Instead, the Soul Chamber add-on allows you to produce slaves from it at reduced cost (so you can spam slaves to go collect on the battlefield).
3. Then, allow better cooldown for various soul abilities.

Right now, the cooldown is the only thing keeping DE from spamming abilities all the time. You never ever run out of soul.

[Xile]

DE does run out of Souls. Unless you play a waitfest, they don't have a surplus of Soul.

Attacking a DE fixes the the surplus of Souls.

They have no turrets and Slaves moves slow as dung. Just jump a squad back their and harass Soul harvesting.

[Dunxco]

I'd say:
1. Remove ability to make soul gibs at base.
2. Instead, the Soul Chamber add-on allows you to produce slaves from it at reduced cost (so you can spam slaves to go collect on the battlefield).
3. Then, allow better cooldown for various soul abilities.

Right now, the cooldown is the only thing keeping DE from spamming abilities all the time. You never ever run out of soul.

1) If you remove the ability to make soul gibs at bases, then DEldar can't even get off the ground against infiltrated T1 infantry (Scouts, Stealthsuits, Rangers). An early soul gib is quite important until you can get a Haemonculus out. Otherwise, your only option is to drop a Hall of Blood and get infiltrated Mandrakes, and that's only to be on an even footing.

2) It's an interesting idea, but slaves are far too fragile to really go traipsing around firefights to harvest souls, and make very squishy targets. The Talos kind of counters this, but that's after the Wytch Cult Arena goes down.

3) If you can get one or two soul gibs out in your base, you've basically got all the souls you'll ever need to power your abilities. I'd suggest banish the soul gib addon, as you suggested, but allow a couple of other things to harvest souls, making mid-battle harvesting a more enticing option rather than camping your slaves around one soul pit.

Obvious choices would be the Haemonculus or Incubi/Archon, but I wouldn't be opposed to Helions also gathering souls. If ditching the soul-gib addon is too much of a nerf, then at least slow down it's production. It chucks out souls too quickly anyway. A bit of a slowdown would probably be a welcome addition.

Regards,
D.

[mlai]

Slaves may be slow and squishy, but does that matter if they're FREE or if they're 5-10 req each?

Who says workers must be valuable (to preserve) for all races? For a race which uses tortured slaves, I'd expect them to not care at all if the enemy shoots them. Low-cost slaves spammed into the battlefield to collect souls reflects this. Having troops harvest souls delays them; it's a nerf.

Of course Relic can't wrap its head around such a drastic change. So reducing gib production at base is a good alternative.

[Makenshi]

People look at things isolated, and that's not good. Remember that Corrosion + Soulstorm = total pwnage. I always, ALWAYS make this combo.

[ImmortalChaos]

Uh, corrosion shouldnt make soulstorm do any more damage at all.

It increases the damage taken from all ranged fire and abilities by 8% but not beyond their max damage. Since soulstorm has the same min and max damage, it won't help it at all. The other affect of corrosion just increases damage taken by 10%, but thats only for weapons fire.

[Maktaka]

It increases the damage taken from all ranged fire and abilities by 8% but not beyond their max damage.Yes, but notice that Soulstorm only has 50% piercing at best against any target, so it WILL be increased. There's still quite a bit of room between the damage it currently does to various targets and its max damage.

[konfeta]

Honestly, though, Corrosion is the real ultimate Dark Eldar power. Given a choice between casting Soulstorm and Corrosion, I think I will end up picking corrosion almost every time.

It's comparable to old Orbital Bombardment on how fast it allows you to take down HQ buildings.

[fs_xyz]

Limiting corpse production building to 1 or 2 ? ( what is the rate of corpse production anyway ? Mostly only use one worker for one building.... )
This still force DE player to go collect souls at the battlefield for faster soul gathering.

[Dunxco]

With a soul gib pile spewing from a slave chamber, the rate of collection is one per second if you dedicate the slave to collection. Or thereabouts, it might be a little slower or faster by, like, 0.1-0.2 seconds, but it's thereabouts. Admittedly, it feels a little too fast. Maybe utilise some sort of form where it starts off generating souls at a harvestable rate of 1per second, then let it decay like sp's and gens?

By the time it's depleted you could have an option to restock it with fresh souls for 110 req - the cost of a new slave chamber and torture pit addon, only without the necessary "delete and lower popcap then rebuild" sorta thing. You could even bump up the price a bit, make it cost some power too. Thoughts?

[CyberFish]

While I like the idea of reducing the DE ability to gather souls without ever leaving their base, just reducing the rate of soul production is a terrible idea. Currently, gathering souls from the battlefield is excessively hard because the Tortured Slaves are too expensive and too squishy to keep on the front line, and souls disappear quickly enough that if you run a slave from your base to the site of a recent battle, he'll arrive just in time to see the last few souls disappear. I suggest increasing the soul persistance.

[mlai]

The reason I wouldn't like increasing soul persistence is purely visual... I don't like seeing all that purple all over the screen. It's distracting.
At least it's only visible to the DE player. Kudos to ILE for programming it that way.
Would free slaves (with the add-on) be too much of a balance change? Personally I don't think so. Scarabs are free, and they even detect.

[Makenshi]

Free slaves out-of-the-box may be too much; Necron scarabs are free because their whole economy works in a different fashion. But a T 1.5 upgrade to make them free would be nice and fluffy.

@Maktaka: About the corrosion + soulstorm combo, is it worth the amount of soulessence required or not? You're the stat man, so I'll take what you say. ;)

[corncobman]

I'd agree to slaves being free only if they self-destructed after a period of time.

[Maktaka]

@Maktaka: About the corrosion + soulstorm combo, is it worth the amount of soulessence required or not? You're the stat man, so I'll take what you say.I'm going to explain this the long way, so bear with me for a sec, you'll get your answer eventually.

Anyways, this is just looking at the armor reduction of Corrosion, so I'm ignoring the weaponry damage boost since the functionality of those effects is pretty obvious. The basic formula for dealing damage to a target, both by abilities and weapons, is:

(damage) * (100 + armor piercing - target's armor)/100
In Dark Crusade and Soulstorm "target's armor" is universally 100, so the armor piercing value is also the percentage of the base damage that is dealt to the target. Now, Corrosion reduces the target's armor by 8%, which because of the universal 100 armor is a reduction of 8. A couple examples will show how this has an effect.

Example 1: Already full piercing
If the target is already doing full piercing, then it can't do any more damage even when the target's armor is weakened. However, the weaponry boost still has an effect because it is applied AFTER the final armor piercing calculations.

Example 2: 50% piercing (like Soulstorm against infantry)
Formerly, Soulstorm did 11 * (100 + 50 - 100)/100 = 5.5 damage per hit. Under Corrosion it will do 11 * (100 + 50 - 92)/100 = 6.38 damage, a 16% increase. Not great, but it's something.

Example 3: Low piercing
Scourge Dark Lances have just 15% piercing against building_high. Suppose it does it's average base damage value of 135, which after piercing is calculated is 20.25 damage per hit (I'm ignoring accuracy and reload time here). Under the armor reduction of Corrosion, this becomes 135 * (100 + 15 - 92)/100 = 31.05, and then that's boosted to 34.155 from the general weaponry boost of Corrosion. That's a fantastic 68.67% boost in damage.

So, is Corrosion worth using with with Soulstorm? Eh, not really. It's certainly a damage boost, but there are better uses for it, like when attacking a target with weapons weak to that armor.

[ImmortalChaos]

Oh my, corrosion is much more tricky than I figured it was.

[Makenshi]

Indeed! :eek:

Thanks for the explanation Maktaka; but now you got me curious... what havoc could a Corrosion + DoD's Dark Scythe unleash? :twisted:

On-topic: if Soulstorm is not that OMGPWNZ when combo'ed with Corrosion, than I guess some buff to it is needed - as long as the Dark Scythe is properly nerfed ¬¬

[Maktaka]

... what havoc could a Corrosion + DoD's Dark Scythe unleash?No more than the usual. Dark Scythe already does full piercing to all targets.

[ImmortalChaos]

Like I said earlyer in this thread, the soulstorm ability should only be buffed in terms of pathing and move speed. Mabey some morale damage but that is debatable.

[Jaimas]

Going by what Maktaka's brought up, I'm inclined to agree with Immortal.

[Makenshi]

Yes, pathing and speed improvements, plus some morale damage seem the way to go.

[Geno]

The problem with forcing DE players to collect souls on the frontlines is that when you go up against Necrons, they don't drop any souls. You would have to wait until your own units die before you could harvest any.

Besides, if they do decrease the cost of slaves as a trade-off for decreased soul/gib output from torture pits, then a DE player might as well constantly build slaves and hit the delete button to gather their souls.

[mlai]

@ Geno:
Necrons' lack of gibs affects Kroots too. It's just how Necrons are.

Not if the slaves don't generate souls.