[2.3] StuH

[Monkeypoop]

Make it have the same HP and armor as AVRE, and make its gun cost munitions and have same damage.

Everytime i see a AVRE out on the field i have to retreat as soon as i see that projectile of death pop out. Pak? no problemo roll up and 1 shot it while taking no more than 30% dmg

When i see Stuh I laff and rape it with my 57mm or 17blr in 3-4 shots. This thing can barely hit anything at all, and does vastly less damage than the AVRE.

they come at the same CP, yet one is obviously superior

[Vintage]

Then it would be exactly the same unit which would make it kind of lame. If I were to go about buffing it I would do it in a different manner. The main buff I could see to this unit would be to make it so it actually kills stuff when the shell lands on their hands. I see 1 out of 3 shots land on somethings head and kill nothing at all. If that would be fixed the StuH would be awesome.

[Monkeypoop]

the AVRE does 500 dmg and has 85% long range accuracy.

The StuH does 100 dmg with 25% long range accuracy....

the stuh has half the AOE range as well.... meaning if facing a stuH: just micro your squads away from the projectile.

When facing a AVRE: better run or your 4 man squad is dead for sure

AVRE: 700 hp + superior armor
StUH: 400 hp

with overrpair, it has nearly the same HP as a Tiger.


Worst of all, it reliably kills the unit that is supposed to counter it (Pak).

this is simply because pak cannot deal the 11 shots it needs to kill a churchill. It also laffs off Shrek Shots like no other, not to mention anything that has 2 feet is in serious danger against AVRE.

STUH is killed with 2-3 AP 17blr shots and 4-5 57mm shots

its really frustrating when you have two units that have the same Role, MP cost, CP cost and yet one is vastly superior

The only counter that can't be blown up by it is stug, and we all know that building that unit is a death sentence in a competitive 1v1

in summary stuH needs some love just as much as stug does (they share the same chasis and thus most of the same problems)

[Reverie]

AVRE and StuH, both 5CP and 600mp call-in Anti-Infantry tanks

Accuracy: AVRE>StuH
Damage: AVRE>StuH
Armor/Health: AVRE>StuH
Lob shells over obstacles? AVRE>StuH
Anti-AT duty: AVRE>StuH

The only disadvantages AVRE has compared to StuH are speed, munition per shot, and pop cap. In every other aspect, they beat the StuH senseless.

[fallen soldier7]

the AVRE has a ridiculously slow turret. i hate its turn speed, as everytime i want to shoot something to the side of the AVRE it takes about a year to turn its turret, and by the time it fires the object has moved elsewhere. i avoid it, however, by turning the entire AVRE itself. much faster, i think, and firing in front of the avre is instantaneous.

other than that, the AVRE is much better than the stuh in all categories.

[HellToupee]

theres range, ARVE is 35 stuH is 45. Then theres fire rate 20 second cool down on the fire ability.

[Monkeypoop]

well if you like slow turning turrets, then StuH is your man. Not only does it not have a turret, but it has a massive aiming time when its chasis finally turns around and it stops showing its butt to the enemy. Of course thats only when its not crashed into a bulding and unable to turn itself for 30 seconds

now let me think... would i rather have a gun that can instantly take out a PAK in 1 hit? or would i like a gun that dosnt have cool down... but can't take on AT guns or At infantry at all. Not a hard call there.

Range is unimportant when u can survive 11 pak shots and still limp away. Would u rather have something that is 3 shotted by 17blr but has 45 range or something that can take on any infantry AT or Support AT weapons out at that time for 35 range?

im sorry hell toupee, but if you think 10 range and a 20second cooldown makes up for that then by all means make the STUH have 2 range and a 100 second cooldown. If 10 range and 20s cooldown can buy you 5x dmg 3x accuracy double hp then i would take

2 range and 100 sec cooldown any day... i would expect it to have something like 4000hp, 3x the armor of a JP and enough damage to kill everything on the map in 1 shot if thats what 10 range and 20s cooldown tradeoff really buys u these days

[fallen soldier7]

theres range, ARVE is 35 stuH is 45. Then theres fire rate 20 second cool down on the fire ability.

i think there's a post a little bit up that shows the accuracy modifiers at long range of the stuh and the AVRE. even though the stuh has a longer range, the AVRE is far more accurate at its long range.


the AVRE does 500 dmg and has 85% long range accuracy.

The StuH does 100 dmg with 25% long range accuracy

[Desacrasa]

I've had really good success the few times I've used Stuh, its proven very effective at taking down emplacements, scattering troops with the proper support. The damage it does per shot is massive and has a wide AoE... I did a pioneer spam a few games with vet 3 pios, supporting vet 3 Stuhs and some stormtrooper support to take out armor I had pretty good success.


Also is it just me or do vet 3 pios repair faster than no vet?

[Monkeypoop]

Key words are "the few times I used it" and "vet 3" and "vet 3 pios"

First of all Vet 3 does jack for stuH except reduce damage from like 3-4 weapons in the game... zook RR Piat, second of all it costs 700 mp and something like 150 fuel (i dont remember the exact number)

thats nearly 1300 Mp to field one unit, that is still vastly inferior (vet 3 buys you 15% less received damage and 15% reduction in penetration, which btw is useless since all AT guns can still penetrate with AP rounds). Would i rather that or get the superior armor that the Churchill starts with (e.g. no need for expensive mp/fuel upgrades) and 300 more hp?


and second of all try using it more often. See how far you can get in 1v1 when you have a 600mp deadweight unit.

Lastly if you got vet 3 support team,s vet 3 tanks and i'm assuming Vet 3 infantry, then you must have REALLY been ahead in the game, and probably even pios would have "seemed pretty good" at the time

AVRE is generally considered one of the most worthless tanks in the game. If that's true then where does it leave the stuH?

[Ghostly_Gecko]

Also is it just me or do vet 3 pios repair faster than no vet?

They do indeed; also, they have a lesser penalty while repairing as well. :p

[Monkeypoop]

one more thing: the stuH has further accuracy penalties vs infantry ranging from 25-60% on TOP of its 25% base accuracy at long range.

The AVRE has no accuracy penalties on top of its 85% accuracy at long range.


What does this mean? In 100 shots at 35 range (max range of AVRE):
the AVRE will hit 85 shots on infantry

the StuH will hit 18 times, with its gun that does 1/5 dmg and half AOE

[Znuff]

The range modier for the StuH is rather extreme. It would still be somewhat lacking with it a bit more normal, but it would be good enuff I think.

[Frosty]

The no.1 fix for the StuH is to give it reasonable accuracy, so it doesn't miss 3 out of 4 shots. Then, we can think of further changes if necessary.

[Dryden]

even when StuH misses shells still hit the ground and kill infantry.

[BikerGnome]

Isnt the Stuh much better against buildings??

I remember back in 1.5 or so using Stuhs supported by storms to take down bases very quickly. Dont think the AVRE is that effective in that way

[Monkeypoop]

yeah but if you have played around with it a lot you will realize its nowhere near the power of AVRE.

Due to small AOE affect, it is unfortunately quite easy to dodge the shells with simple micro. Often losing no men or at most 1-2 This is different then the AVRE, which even if you retreat right when the shell is launched, you still have a good chance of losing your entire squad due to the massive AOE range. There is no such thing as dodging a AVRE shell as it will instantly wipe out any 4 man squad.

and stuH is good against buildings, but so is AVRE, namely 5 times better

[HellToupee]

the ARVEs much sorter ranged and slow who has trouble retreating from it?

[Frosty]

Why should the StuH behave exactly like the AVRE?

The AVRE is a slow and heavy tank that fires a huge version of the pineapple frag grenade, when and where you tell it to.

The StuH is a medium turretless tank that fires howitzer shells instead of ordinary tank gun shells.

The only change needed is accuracy and maybe scatter, then the damage output against infantry will be fine.

[Falaris]

Had a look at the StuH's gun tables. There's something a little odd there.

Against all infantry it has considerable accuracy penalties.
Against all armor it has considerable damage penalties.

There's a couple of exceptions.
1: Both types of british emplacements. (checkpoint & emplacement.). 5x acc, 2x damage, so every shot hits even at long range, with 200 damage. Unless OR'd, two or three hits will do.
2: Mobile HQ.
3: To a lesser extent, the US MG nest.

Everything else it has quite a bit of penalties against, although, to be fair its penalties against AT guns are fairly normal. Penalties against infantry is roughly twice that of other tank guns. (But better than its comrade-in-arms, the StuG).

Here's the kicker. The StuH does exactly twice as much damage as a StuG agaisnt emplacements, which is clearly the StuH's main role. It also costs exactly twice as much in MP. It is also worse against everything armored - which is quite an accomplishment, considering the StuG.


The AVRE is tremendously more destructive, but it is also considerably more micro intensive (manually having to fire), costs munitions per shot, and it has no other weapons at all. It has a HUGE popcap (14) and MP cost for a vehicle that is useless outside its asigned role. Its assigned role is pretty decent, though - even with its penatlies against tanks it will do more damage than most AT guns to tanks, for instance.

[Timeless]

I love the Stuh, but I can't deny the AVRE is better, shockingly better in some cases. But I don't complain because the Stuh still helps me win games. Right now, I'm 43-13 using just Blitz. The Stuh pwns, just use blitz nades w it.

I don't see why the AVRE is as powerul as it is, though. I've lost a shit load of units to a single blast from this tank.

[Jeopardia_Ferdy]

ever tried 2 stuhs with blitzkrieg ability?
the rate of fire is kinda awesome and can set the enemy in panic pretty fast =)

[PeterPeterson1]

Munnition cost is no argument for the better churchill, especially for the brits! they are floating in ammo.

I hope someone else tried a AVRE shot against a bunker or a flak and then a StuH shot against a vickers or US bunker. There is a lot of difference. StuH does nearly no big damage to the Vickers. Against US Stuh can rape the base but against british fortifications it is lousy!

[whatsleft]

blitzkrieg is pretty expensive although it provides an offensive punch. also stuh and blitz are on different side of the trees, so its pretty hard to get both of them in a close game.

getting a tiger is tough enough.

[Monkeypoop]

not even considering its weapon is severely lacking, also consider its survivability.

You basically have the equivalent of a 600mp glass cannon since it is on a stug chasis thus inheriting all of its terrible flaws (poor AI, lack of turret, low hP high penetrability, easily flanked etc).

think if it this way: for the Churchill you are placing a mortar ability on a Churchill chasis, one of the hardiest in the game and that normally costs 600 mp

For the StuH you are placing a mortar ability on a StuG, the worst tank in the game that normally costs 340 mp and its HP reflects. that. Its ok for a 17blr to 3 shot a stug. its NOT ok for a stuH which costs 2x as much to get killed in the same amount of shots. The stuH only has 100 more hp than a stuart... and its armor is useless against hi-powered AT guns unlike the churchill

Right now it is completely useless in competitive 1v1 except for anti-emplacement duty, except 1 gren squad with 2 shrecks can do that twice as well for half the cost as well as serving AT duty!

I cannot believe that people would think that two tanks that have the same role, Mp cost and CP cost would say that stuH is fine Compared to AVRE.

I mean even AVRE damage on the gun is 100 more than the entire HP of the stuH! (not that the petard round does dmg against tanks but still...)

i wouldn't mind the stUH costing 14 popcap if it could perfom even 75% as well as the AVRE does

[Dryden]

StuH performs ok tho its cost may be a little big. But, it lets you spend more fuel on vet.
AVRE costs 600mp. YOu can have 2 grens or 2 PAKs for that cost and 14 pop. With good micro you can use them to destroy AVRE.
Use anti-tank blocks on chokepoints and you can kill AVRE w\o taking damage.

[Jaigen]

StuH performs ok tho its cost may be a little big. But, it lets you spend more fuel on vet.
AVRE costs 600mp. YOu can have 2 grens or 2 PAKs for that cost and 14 pop. With good micro you can use them to destroy AVRE.
Use anti-tank blocks on chokepoints and you can kill AVRE w\o taking damage.

this is relevant because?

the differences between the stuh and avre are huge and i defintly would pay 35 ammo for each avre shot. stuh is only effective vs emplacements ant that means it is useless vs one faction.

nearly all emplacements are backed up by the 17 p and the stuh will now win vs the 17. in short its near useless

[Lunar100]

Add to the fact its gun is bugged and will shoot at buildings if a unit runs behind it and you get a lot of friendly fire accidents. The StuH is so piss poor I really miss it's old days. Its just like Relic to screw something up that was perfectly fine. What really boggles my mind is the HUGE accuracy penalties. I've seen this thing miss infantry at POINT BLANK RANGE. Now there is no excuse for such a crappy ass tank.

[Wischmopp]

Please do not forget that u can vet the StuH, making it more lethal, especially to Tommys and Riflemen, which can get supressed by the machine guns. Also it takes close to no damage from infantry AT at vet3.

2 vetted StuH in a combo that are properly microed will beat nearly any infantry blob.

[Jaigen]

it defeats blobs it will most likely not defeat a single AB or ranger squad

[PeterPeterson1]

To micro one Stuh to do no FF but to kill enemy troups is hard enough caus e you need other stuff for anti AT! But to build two of them 1200MP and to guide them well is a different story!

[SilencerPL]

vet 3 is like I won the game already.

[Kratos]

Stuh is a "MEH" thing. When it hits and theres a blob yay, any other way it sux.
The idea that the stuh shots behave like arty is very odd.
Eighter leave it as it is and give it a massive increase in range or make it more accurate and give it a litte dmg buff.

AVRE is indeed better and ammo is not a problem for brits in mind - lategame.

[Quercus]

The only disadvantages AVRE has compared to StuH are speed, munition per shot, and pop cap. In every other aspect, they beat the StuH senseless.
You are having a laugh aren't you?
You kind of forgot two critical disadvantages with the Churchill:
1. Range - you need the tough armour because you have to practically be standing on the enemy toes before you are in range of the main weapon.
2. Main Gun - yes the AVRE shell is good at taking out static defences, but moving infantry? Forget it unless you accurately lead them. Armour? Hah hah - no chance. The AVRE sucks because it's main gun costs munitions to use and therefore will not fire on its own (unlike the StuH), even if the enemy are cavorting around in front of it and taunting it.

No other unit in the game requires you to spend munitions before you can fire its primary weapon, not even the other mobile artillery units and at least they have a decent range for their attacks.

[Reverie]

The AVRE has a range of 35, and most tanks have 40. Not exactly standing on enemy toes if you ask me. As for infantry...if you cannot kill infantry with it, you really shouldn't be using it.

I forgot to test it against StuGs, but AVREs can kill a StuH with four shots, while StuH's howitzer shells bounce off.

[Brother Glacius]

The AVRE is a beast. Used against any static unit, you can kiss their ass goodbye. I used one vs a wehr player who had a great defense set up. Paks, MGs, mortars, and grens. I roll up with a croc and and AVRE a little behind. Opening shots at the croc, the AVRE starts destroying units with every hit. It took out grens, Paks, MGs....the mortars were spared being on its kill list only because the croc fried them first. Honestly, the Wehr really have no great response to an early AVRE unless they spam shreks.

The StuH on the other hand is easily countered by any standard AT the allies have. The StuH could definitely use some loving from Relic. Maybe give the StuH some sort of suppression ability vs emplacements? I mean it is firing arty shells. People might just take cover when those start landing in.

So for example, it rolls up to a 17pdr and fires in, it reduces the ROF for the 17pdr for a few seconds, perhaps even giving it a 1 on 1 chance to win the conflict.

***** Brother G.

[Ghostly_Gecko]

I used one vs a wehr player who had a great defense set up. Paks, MGs, mortars, and grens. I roll up with a croc and and AVRE a little behind. Opening shots at the croc, the AVRE starts destroying units with every hit. It took out grens, Paks, MGs....the mortars were spared being on its kill list only because the croc fried them first. Honestly, the Wehr really have no great response to an early AVRE unless they spam shreks.

How is early if it's 7 CP's in and 1,400MP (600MP for AVRE and 800MP for Croc, IIRC) into the game? There's no way you held off your opponent while floating >1,000MP.

[LowlyGrunt]

Would the StuH be more worthwhile if it got its old method of firing back - firing a fast shell in a straight line rather than a slow one in an arc? At the very least it would stop trying to fire over things when the arc is too low to manage it.

[OutpostCommand]

I just find the StuH to be absolutely awful.
There is only one use I have for it. Its the place where it still performs adequately - rushing vickers nests.
If youre having trouble getting to a 17pdr due to a Vickers MG, the StuH may help. Other than that though, the vehicle just sucks, pure and simple.

The problem ? Its rubbish accuracy.
It does some decent damage, and will kill around 2-3 men per squad and scatter the remaining men - but when only one in five shots hit, thats just not good enough.

A accuracy buff and maybe a small armour buff would certainly make the StuH useful again, in my opinion.


EDIT_1: Perhaps what Grunt, above me, states, would work. Thats another improvement which could improve the vehicles performance. That way, it wouldnt miss so damn often.

[Wolfhere]

Would the StuH be more worthwhile if it got its old method of firing back - firing a fast shell in a straight line rather than a slow one in an arc? At the very least it would stop trying to fire over things when the arc is too low to manage it.

I've argued this before also, and agree. It should fire just a like a Stug, only less effective against armor and more effective against infantry, with a sizeable splash. It's gun should do more damage than a Tiger, but give it .25 modifier against tanks since it's firing HE only. It however, should make a complete mess of light vehicles (bren, ht, m8 etc.)....if it hit.

[Timeless]

blitzkrieg is pretty expensive although it provides an offensive punch. also stuh and blitz are on different side of the trees, so its pretty hard to get both of them in a close game.

getting a tiger is tough enough.

I get Assault nades first, then the stuh, in every single one of those 50 games. It's not hard at all.

[Border Patrol]

the stuh is fine.
all that needs to be changed is the stuh projectile speed, and both the stuh and stug aim delay need to be massively reduced
not to mention assault nades are only 1 cp. how long does it take to get 1 CP again?
EDIT: and reverie, how much do 4 AVRE shells cost again? 35 ammo each right? 140 ammo to kill one stuh, and any tank thats still sitting there after the first 3 shots deserves to die.

[Monkeypoop]

the main problem in avre vs stuh is that AVRE is reliable anti-AT where as StuH is utter suckage.

If the enemy spams rangers you would think an anti-infantry tank would take them out but nope, those free zooks rape the stuH like no other. If you even see a 57mm you better park your stuh in your base cause it wont last 7 seconds against a 57mm

On the other hand if avre is facing grens or paks, one shot will instantly destroy 1 squad and probably kill off the pak crew even if they are spaced out. The AVRE takes tanks to safely counter, tanks that are bad investments (stug)

[Border Patrol]

you cannot honestly start with the "zomg rangers zomg commandos" argument now... you just came from the zomg commandos thread and the verdict was that it was a PEBCAK issue, not a balance issue. i think the same can be said for the stuh, aside from it needing a faster missile and quicker aimtime.

[Monkeypoop]

and yet you seem to fail to realize that relic will never implement changes on a unit unless they deem it pressing matter, which means stuH Will never be changed unless people actually speak out

everybody agrees it needs the orginal targeting in pre-OF and better accuracy but will it ever get implemented? not likely

[Timeless]

I use assnades to pwn the rangers while the stuh fires in from behind. I'm not saying the AVRE isn't better, I'm just saying the Stuh is good.

[Dryden]

sorry for double posting, but it needs to be repeated:
zooks have poor penetration of front armor.
And if thay try to flank - you can have easy kills by crushing them. They even can smash themselves on you tank.

[Lunar100]

Only a lower level player would flank that close to the StuH dryden and let his men get run over. With Fireup it's easy to go around to the sides and get a few good bazooka hits in

[Dryden]

even with fireup you cant move AND shoot rear IF StuG is ALSO microed to avoid rear shots. Therefore rangers need to run close to StuG to get rear shots. Therefore they die.

[Splitmonkey]

Therefore you fail for running your squad into the tank, tip try running behind the tank.

[Kratos]

ZOMG Ranger dont kill a stuh in seconds? Damn, nerf those imbalanced Stuhs!

[Dryden]

Therefore you fail for running your squad into the tank, tip try running behind the tank.yeah right. And pray that it stands still while you try to move circles (without getting closer), set-up and shoot. And pray that it doesnt shoot.
Guys, in this duel rangers\paras have more chances but add a little support (flame pios at least) and they will toast bastards while you micro StuG\H backward and still shoot some guys.
StuH still has a good chances if it wasnt thrown into ranger\para blob but was supported and microed.

[Reverie]

Good job turning this into a theorycrafting contest.

StuH is a fucking joke. If anyone can use it to great effect please upload a replay.

[Splitmonkey]

if you add flame pios to this im adding a pershing

1 on 1 however it happens

i have never seen just 1 ranger squad in a game anyways.

[Dryden]

reverie
ok I will do it when i play as WM again.
And I dont theorycraft. I microed rangers\paras vs it and I microed StuG\Hs.
Its you who didnt try to do it and thus you theorycrafting.

Splitmonkey
StuH isnt good bc ppl usually rush it into ambush and then try to drive back to save it but AT guns and FUpped paras finish it. Ppl usually forget that StuH isnt a damage sponge - but its a damage dealer.

[PeterPeterson1]

Pls dryden i look forward for a replay you are kiteing one or two stuhs successfully.

[Monkeypoop]

kiting with stugs/stuhs is pretty much impossible against anything reasonably fast simply because it has no turret and an insane aim time not to mention terrible moving accuracy.

for what the stuH costs in Mp, it is much much much more cost efficient to get a P4 which has only 13 less dmg per shot but has almost 4 times the accuracy against infantry, and can deal with light and medium tanks with ease.

Assuming fuel is not a limiting factor (for wehr it is less so than for US) you can get a P4 AND tank vet 1 for 510 mp, so you still come ahead 90mp more than if you had gone for a stuH. Plus you have better AT ability, better AI ability, and 50% more hp and 15% reduced damage.

Or you could get a tiger which trumps the StuH in dmg to infantry, accuracy to infantry and health.

The only problem is that these are late-game units. Thus what usually happens is when you pick blitz people get storms, then simply wait until they have the 9cp tiger and stuH is essentially unused.

[sighman]

Its a stupid unit that needs a buff to its damage output to infantry squads. It is quite irritating when you see the projectile land a direct hit on an infantry cluster and you hear a loud "boom", thinking its a score out of the 1 in a billizion chances it actually hits its intended target... but no, even a direct hit will not even take out 1 paratrooper. This needs a fix more so then its accuracy, and it definetly needs to shot in a more parabolic fashion so it will actually be able to shoot over shot-blocking obstacles.

Basically, anything in this game with the Stug chassis sucks and is definetly not worth its cost. And no, they cant even be used situationally, because there are so many units for a similar cost that perform its niche better.

[zzSleeper]

Maybe make the stuh into a sniper? Increase range by 20, give it a vision bonus with vet 2, and perhaps increase the projectile speed a little?

That would make it useful without turning it into a carbon copy of the AVRE.

[lordkosc]

i'd have to agree with most people in here, its pretty much good at taking out static emplacements ( not including 17 pounders )

[whatsleft]

i think they should just revert the old stuh, where it was good for its cost.