Ingame cut-scenes issue

[toron]

Obviously we'll have in game cut-scenes like in stronghold maps of previous expansions or like in Company of Heroes...but the very irritating problem is these cut-scenes are not consistent with what you actually did and had ingame.

For example, I usually go with just Leman Russ tanks and HWTs but in the cut scenes you see a completely different army, it really sucks. If you remember an excellent RTS like Ground Control 2 there was this mission where you were able to destroy anti-air batteries, after the mission was over the cut-scene of the next mission was plotted with that "destroyed" batteries now shotting down helicopters.

But there are many other games in which all ingame cut-scenes are completely consistent with what you did and what you had, in all genres.

What would be the problem in just having triggers that incorporate everything you have on the map but just inject other elements of storyline which interact with situation you created?
And what we have now in DoW is complete separation and addition unrelated to your actions.

This is also a larger issue on how to fuse non linearity with story which is very feasible if you want to do it. Also if you go down this line you can have every single map to be like a stronghold map as opposed to unlinked skirmishes where only connection is previous map bonuses.

Also there is a large area in here to explore, add new features and bring the RTS to a whole new level of quality.

I hope people in charge of DoW will read this. this is very important.

[NeCoHo]

To have the game use only the units you have in the game would require things like more processor speed and other fun things like that (I'm no uber tech person, if you couldn't tell. heh). Generally speaking, it could/would increase the strain on your machine, and for some, make the game possibly unplayable. To save the game from this, the devs had the foresight to just make it a cut scene involving a force they made up to make it look cool.

I mean, honestly, whats cooler: Hundreds of guardsmen blazing away, rushing to meet the enemy, and dying to take a base or a couple russes and heavy weapon teams blasting away at a distance? I much prefer the gore and action.

As for linear/nonlinear discussion, you will find it has been discussed what feels like a hundred times, if you would just use the search button.

[cannonfodder]

Eh? Using leftover units would be possible. With no additional useage of resources.

It would, however, look a hell lot less impressive than thousands of random guys blasting away. That said, with the low number of units in DoW2, you can wave bye to massive cutscenes (well, as far as SM goes at least - might go still for orkz), so they might as well stick to showing only units you still have.

[NeCoHo]

Leftover units? As in the units left over from the attack that complete's the objective? Yes, that is what I amtalking about. It would requiew the game to take said units, and transform them into a cutscene, which means they would still be moving using the physics and whatnot used in the actual game, instead of following a pre-decided path that has been already done and ready.

[Civik]

hopefully the issue of weirdness like that won't come up because the campaign will be more story based and less like a bunch of quickmatches against the AI.

[toron]

Generally speaking, it could/would increase the strain on your machine

This doesn't make any sense, you are totally confused..just stick to non-tech stuff.


because the campaign will be more story based and less like a bunch of quickmatches against the AI.

Still, even in this way it would have much higher replayability factor than being utterly linear like CoH.
I like the Kane's Wrath global conquest concept very much, it just needs to have maps on the globe with special events, properties and triggers, and overall global triggers depending on your gameplay style.
Frankly, I don't know what is it with this linearity/story fallacy when you can easily imagine that not being an issue..



honestly, whats cooler: Hundreds of guardsmen blazing away..

this is false by default, any army that I/you would assemble and fight with through entire map would be more impressive than some prescripted cut-scene.

[Rev'var]

Most games that use your units aren't really cutscenes in the same sense as the dow ones. Those cutscenes seem to merely be the camera zooming around where the action is supposed to be when the objective is completed. The units then proceed to randomly mill about whilst the story elements are portrayed. To have the computer actually take those units and direct them in a meaningful way might be a bit more complicated.

[NeCoHo]

False by default? Thanks for condeming my entire post to your own version of what is correct and what is not. Assuming I fought through a map, using my men and actually fighting it, personally I find spamming one or two units a little inexperianced, but if that is how you play, so be it. The point of the matter is that some prescripted cut scene cuts down on the game having to waste precious time to make sure all your own units are still being used after you beat the objective. It seems quite wasteful in my opinion to do so.

[Dyntheos]

toron you're killing me with the quotes :|

I kinda agree with you on one aspect in that for many games I have this uber huge army of bassness and then the cutsecene kicks in and it's like 4 units? wtf is that?

Connectivity with the storyline via cutscenes is good and having your army in there would be cool. However you would have to not run a cut scene to do this but basically take control from the player and then use the ingame engine to continue to play out the fight to include your army and incorporate that into the cut scene.

It's easier just to pre create a scene with likely elements in the background, than to personalise each one. I agree with you it's wierd, like the GC2 example ( I've noticed this in a few games ), but realistically I would imagine it to be a bit of technical hill to get over and development time could be spent better elsewhere.

[toron]

I don't think so, one extreme example would be Resident Evil 4, a masterpiece of a game, but in every cutscene you carry a gun which you don't even have in inventory, not to mention clothes..

What is so complicated in computer taking control over your units? In what bizarre universe is that more complicated than having created entire scene of carefully scripted units?

Not to mention that when the cutscene is triggered you almost always have practically exterminated everything on the map, and in cutscene you have a whole army appearing. Don't you see that the whole approach to structuring itself is wrong?

Hopefully, DoW2 will be so advanced in creating procedural world so that everything will happen in real time, cutscene are really obsolete and superfluous.

It's like STALKER vs Half Life 2, sure, Half Life 2 is engaging like a movie, but STALKER is like a proto-world that you can play over and over again and it's even more immersive.

[NeCoHo]

To answer your question in the second paragraph: He who shall not be named said so.

But in all seriousness, Devs like to do this in order to save time to make other things, like the rest of the game. If they get bogged down in making sure all the coding is there for custom cutscenes, for every map every section of the map (remember that some maps have multiple starting spots), and every race, they will have less time to make the rest of the game. It's quality over quantity. (Please, don't start basing Soulstorm in this regard, it has been done before and is not pertinent to the discussion)

[Rev'var]

A shooter's cutscenes are a bit different then a strategy game's. Simply putting different clothes and a gun on a model and having it walk around like normal is less complicated then having the computer attempt to direct a bunch of random units to move around in a way that actually means something (and has little pathing errors).

[Achronos-117]

What I hope is that they don't carry over the cinematic style from Soulstorm. The problem bout that was that your troops were invincible, even if your imperial guard that are being shot at by Astartes, or being set on fire by the SOBs, your still just shooting normally, without anyone dying at all.

[{OGS}Sirius]

Wait i thoughthein game cutscene was meant to just tell the story furthers. Plus the actionisscript written so you prolly wouldn see the hwt shooting at chaos lord when he suppose to be fighting the general i mean really? Makes sense to me instead of figuring out a really advance program to figure out type of units you have left and how they should be setup in cutscene they just decide script it do it and be done with it.

[toron]

So, you are saying it's more complicated than having it real time all together like in any RPG(Titan Quest)?

[Croaxleigh]

In Dawn of War, in-game cinematics are done with SCAR code... it's resonable to assume that the SCAR tradition will carry over in DoW2. The reason that the cinematics are pre-rendered is because that way they can display things exactly like they want to, getting the actions that they want from the units that they want to do them. It would be possible to do this using only the existing units, but you would need to have part of the SCAR script to figure out which units are on the field and then have them move in a meaningful way. It might still need to generate additional units, as well... what if the script calls for a Force Commander and a Chaplain to have speaking parts, but you don't have either because your FC died and you never built a Chaplain? It would have to check for all of the necessary units as well so that it would know if it needed to generate them.

With pre-scripted scenes, though, all that it needs to do is to generate the units that are supposed to appear and then do the cinematic. It's just much easier to do with pre-scripted scenes, and the less SCAR is involved (especially in stronghold-type missions, which are already very SCAR heavy) means that there's that much less of a chance for a bug to be hidden away which messes up the scene or the entire mission.

[{OGS}Sirius]

I mean really what if you only have 1 squad left, what will the cutscene look like? Just a movie of one squad hurrying to each scene to do the actions? :rofl:

[toron]

There could be different triggers cut-scenes for different calculations, if the game calculates you are predominately vehicle based, it could use those, if you are infantry based it uses them, if you have sustained high casualties you would have special "barely victorious" scene.

Now that would be improvement, wouldn't it?

[Dyntheos]

Your idea sounds like a choose your own adventure book Toron.

"If you only have an FC turn to page 135"
"If you took out the garrison of orks and then took the fuel dump, BUT you lost the squad of marines turn to page 342"
"If you managed to keep the squad of marines turn to page 763"

[toron]

Your analogy is fallacious because of the extremely low options involved.
Anyway this is irrelevant because the example of stronghold maps is not relevant, the entire concept needs restructuring and probably will be for DoW2.

[Akranadas]

Considering that DoW2 is focusing on smaller combat units, I'd say that they will represent this correctly in ingame cut scenes

[Drachenfell]

I don't think it would be a good idea to do it. Afterall the game would have to consider so many things. And like mentioned above if you didn't build a Chaplain and one was needed for the scene then what can you do? I think these things have to be accepted. A games designer is unlikely to include something that takes alot of work to do and plan for, that has little return.

Personally I didn't mind too much if when the cut scene came it wasn't my beleagered and battered army previously on the walls. My imagination is willing to make that leap I guess.

Just hope they don't have the guy with the Brian Blessed like voice doing the inbetween bits. Don't get me wrong he's great. But I always used to cringe when seeing the scrolling reading through bits in DC and SS.

Hopefully they will get Blur to do an intro scene. Awsum. ^_^

[Versian]

Characters can be introduced in a cut-scene without a problem. Remember, Isador doesn't make a presence in the first DoW missions, but appears in the cut-scenes. Is that a problem? No. Isador could be doing other things during the mission.

The problem is things that are left out. If I made 10 Baneblades and didn't lose a single one, but my cut-scene shows no baneblades at all, I'd be mad. Sure, you can explain that they went to go do other stuff, but still. Kinda annoying

[toron]

Exactly, it's like these kind of cut-scenes invalidate everything you did...they obliterate the experience by not at least slightly linking to what you did like I said in a few posts above where I bolded it.

[Drachenfell]

I don't think I ever felt they invalidated it. I just realised that there were limitations to things. I understand what Versian was talking about with main characters but what about squads. What if it required 4 long range shooty squads for teh cut screen and you only built flayed ones?

And why should the system compensate for that? I guess it's just not a big deal for me. But I can imagine it would be for some.

[konfeta]

Immersion breaking it may be, but your solution will introduce other cutscene screw ups. I don't think it's worth the time Relic would waste coding that stuff in.

[Elerium]

I don't think it would be a good idea to do it. Afterall the game would have to consider so many things. And like mentioned above if you didn't build a Chaplain and one was needed for the scene then what can you do? I think these things have to be accepted. A games designer is unlikely to include something that takes alot of work to do and plan for, that has little return.


Space Marine Sergeant: "Brother Davius we have completed our current objective and we must secure the location for the Imperium, have you made the neccessary arrangements?"

Space Marine: "We have set up a forward base as planned, and our scouts have taken positions around the area."

Space Marine Sergeant: Squads three through ten, follow me into battle! We must purge this xenos filth in the name of the Emperor!

Whereas if you had the Chaplain:

Space Marine: "Revered Chaplain, our objective is completed, and our scouts are in position in several key areas. What are your further orders?

Chaplain: "In the name of the Emperor we must claim that ground for the glory of the chapter! Our forward base will become testament to the Emperor's wrath upon this xenos filth which we shall smite! To me brothers! For the glory of the Blood Ravens!"

Something like that could work?

[Drachenfell]

Yes it could Elerium. But then you're paying two sets of voice actors (or one set) for a scene that simply doesn't require it. I can just see it as counter productive. Personally I like the days when cut scene's were all cinematic and KA-POW! Y'know. Like in Wing Commander n'schtuff.

...

I feel old. :<

Oh wait, Squad Command does it too. Those cut scene's were banging! But it could work Elerium if Relic put the time and effort into it. I just don't expect them to do so because time and money can be spent elsewhere.

[runab0ut]

Those dialog tree's and voice assets would be massive... more so with multiple races with their respective units.

[{OGS}Sirius]

I do know a couple of games that show the units you use in the cutscene i believe male storm, i had like one infrantry man left so, they showed all my men getting killed except that one man which he goes over to blow a barrel up causing a miracle chain reaction wining the mission...

[Forge World]

Hmmm I did not think this was much of an issue but I just conquered the SM stronghold in SS using Tau Kauyon but the cut scene showed my army as Tau Mont'Ka.... still not a major issue just looked very strange.

[toron]

Yes, it feels and looks so bad every time that, if they don't intend to restructure it, they should totally abandon ingame cut-scenes and have Starcraft/Tiberium Wars type cinematics which are removed from any battlefield details...everything is better than current state.

[Tron]

Yeah they should have cinimatics like the Original DoW/WA begining cutscene type of look with a stoy thats the stuff i like or maybe make what you did and zoom out to a place you would not be able to see ingame to show the comander/hero talking to someone as the story maybe? or make a "cinimatic spot" UNDER the map so as not to get in the way of the actual battle you had :/