Destructibility fidelity

[toron]

I wonder if this is possible to do in a foreseeable future or even be partially part of DoW2.

Here is the concept:
Physics infrastructure that consists of properties simulation of 3 type of materials-
wood
stone
metal

You have several classes of structures varying sizes that serve as a mold/skeleton, it is also made out of stone, wood, or metal, and the "fasade" is basically your design of the building that is also made out of any of the 3 materials. The basic classes of skeletons are made to simulate architectural tension, so for example if you shatter a pillar one floor breaks down or entire building. The skeletons would be very simple.

So, obviously, first you have to shatter the fasade and then the skeleton is effected, or it is done simultaneously depending on the material(if the facade is wood for example), or if the facade is metal and the skeleton is stone, that would be a fortification of some sort needing, obviously, special kinds of weapons to even be affected.

Just this would considerably deepen the gameplay. For example, in DoW even the puniest infantry with pistol can destroy the entire building if you give it time. There is no physics involved unlike in CoH where infantry no matter how long they shoot at tank it is not even scratched because obviously, such weapons can't affect thick armor.

Laser/plasma weapons would be most effective against metal, vehicles are made of metal and the properties of that material would also be simulated with different weapon encounters.

When dealing in metal the simulation would consist of 2 basic manifestations-crumbling/denting and melting.
Wood and stone would consist of 1 manifestation-shattering, level depending on the weapon intensity grade.

Maybe, the fourth material could be added such as organic slush, every living creature is made out of organic slush as well as grass and plant life, it would have same simulated manifestations, like catching on fire, mushy piercing/exploding and such...

So, we would have these basic rules implemented consistently making for a proto-world which creates unforeseeable cascading effect for everything you do.

Now, these are really basic rules and low number of simulations but if done consistently in everything it would be a whole new level of experience, that you can't even imagine right now.

There has been a number of games with much greater physics fidelity, SW: Force Unleashed is even implementing DMM(Digital Molecular Material) combined with upgraded Havok physics.

So for RTS genre this would have to be simplified like I suggested because of the sheer scale of implementation and what resources would that require from a PC but if done consistently you wouldn't even notice and the depth would be unprecedented.

Also different kinds of weapon discharges would also be simulated to accurately interact with physical bodies, them being organic slush, structures or vehicles. Each body would also have basic skeleton structure and very simple architectural tension.

So, what do you think?

[Buguba]

This has been around since Dawn of War 1. :P

That is, if you're talking about distinctive armour types that take damage and interact with weapon types differently (contingent upon how they're programed). That's all the whole system in Dawn of War worked in the first place.

I THINK what you're talking about is a distinctive physics system for different material types. If that's what you're talking about that sounds cool. I don't know though, it sounds like a little more advanced version of what's already in COH.

[toron]

I THINK what you're talking about is a distinctive physics system for different material types.

Well, it would be bizarre to interpret this text in any other way, have you read the title..eh..and the text? :banghead:

[Buguba]

Hey mate, cool down. I don't live in your head. Sorry if I skimmed a bit.

Point being though, most of this is already implemented to a certain extent. At least it is in Company of Heroes.

[NeCoHo]

I personly find it much easier to discuss things over the internet when things are as simple and stright forward as possible, to avoid any mis-interpretations, which this was/will be prone to... As you addressing the OP, I will wait and see when the game comes out, because speculating about it will only make you want it more.

[FooF]

Organic slush? I'd prefer simply "Organic."

I understand what you're saying though. A bolter round should make a normal human being "pop" when hit.

That being said, I believe you're concepts are probably already in-game because CoH does something similar already. Light infantry are not going to be able to knock out a heavily armored tank nor are pistol rounds going to destroy a building. On the other hand, plasma weapons should damage those same materials but not to the extent of a rocket launcher or lascannon.

I don't know how much wood there will be in DoW2 (not nearly as much as CoH, I imagine) and lets face it, a wooden fence is not going to protect anything in the WH40k universe.

[toron]

I was thinking wood would be a nice touch in suburban or rural areas, and don't forget that trees are wood. And also it would look so nicely, I can already see it...burned holes from plasma/laser weapons that start to fire up the wood, trees cut down or shrapnels from projectile weapons.

This is the future in RTS people, especially when Nvidia will make use of its recent Ageia acquisition in their own graphics cards.

Also, I used the word simulation, kind of proto-world which has basic physics which makes everything unpredictable, I used the term cascading effect. I don't think CoH has much of simulating going on.

<snip>

edit: Stop flaming. - Ap0k

[chandlerr_360]

Toron, play Company of Heroes, look at the Havok physics and the way that game performs, and imagine it DoW 2 style. It is basically going to be the same since they are using a slightly altered Essence Engine.

[Croaxleigh]

I wouldn't necessarily call it a "slightly altered" Essence Engine... it's a completely different version of Essence, with a new Havok physics engine as well.

[toron]

Even the new Havok physics can't be on par with DMM, you have to use both to make a real difference.

[Frankie7508]

I think, while DMM and material fidelity would be cool, it would not add a great deal to the game other than visual things. Also, we don't know exactly how plasma, melta, and other weapons would affect certain materials. I can already see people complaining that "Melta weapons shouldn't react that way with stone..etc. ad nauseam" While cool, I don't think Relic should overly worry about implementing DMM, as it won't be as appreciated in DOW2 as it is in Force Unleashed. The destructibility is really cool, and any advancements with that are appreciated.

[Kadaeux]

I think, while DMM and material fidelity would be cool, it would not add a great deal to the game other than visual things. Also, we don't know exactly how plasma, melta, and other weapons would affect certain materials. I can already see people complaining that "Melta weapons shouldn't react that way with stone..etc. ad nauseam" While cool, I don't think Relic should overly worry about implementing DMM, as it won't be as appreciated in DOW2 as it is in Force Unleashed. The destructibility is really cool, and any advancements with that are appreciated.

Actually you're wrong there, there is a VAST store of data availiable on how 40ks weapons affect different things. EG

Lasguns: Punch through walls regularly to target people on the other side... concrete walls. They also instantly cauterise and about 1/4th of the time they even "explode" body parts.

Bolters: Blast fist sized holes in concrete and some armours, routinely explode people. Including Orks.

Meltaguns: Do precisely as advertised, they melt, the melt flesh, meta, concrete, ceramite etc. Wood presumably is flash incinerated.

Plasmaguns: Meltagun light, and in an instant instead of using a beam. Also known to incinerate people thouroughly enough to leave only a pair of boots with the tops of the feet sticking through, nothing else, not bone not metal dogtags etc.

Lascannons: Effect against people isn't seen so much... Presumably insant incineration, effect against armour is severe melting of the armour, destroying stuff etc.

Flamer: Look at WW2 footage, or Vietnam Napalm Strikes...

Shuriken weapons: Throw a steak into the blender... ....

I could go on for every weapon in the 40k arsenal extending to their space based assets. We know EXACTLY how 40k weapons effect their targets.

The part that doesn't seem to be too well understood is the mechnisms of the weapons. Such as the DoW1 Bolter, it's an automatic RPG launcher, yet behaves like a modern assault rifle.

Bad as Firewarrior was it likely got the rate of fire for the boltgun right, maybe the sound as well. Now if that was translated into DoW2 that would be impressive (and save on system resources too, instead of a few hundred to thousand bolter rounds to calculate you would have a more manageable number.)

[Fightingfirst]

@Kadaeux: How does a lasgun explode body parts, its a laser not an explosive.

[Frankie7508]

@ Kadeux The problem is that EVERY weapon, even those that are normally anti-vehicle, are amazing vs. infantry. Every weapon would be anti-infantry, almost instantaneously killing anyone they hit. This would cause problems with balance in my opinion. Also, as I stated, there would be people who argued over how the weapons would affect various targets i.e. Fightingfirst stating that lasguns would not explode body parts. Also, many of them would make traditional cover near useless.

[Buguba]

@Fightingfirst: A laser is really just a directed energy weapon, so it's more than likely the energy would cause collateral damage.

I've never seen anyone shot by a lasgun before though, so I wouldn't know. :P

[NightBringer]

well, DoW2 is already using the havok physisc engine, but i agree that DMM wouldn't add much more than visual effects, and again, since the materials used in the 40k universe (ferrocrete, rockrete, wraihbone, living metal) have such (to use its actualy meaning) fantastic properties, not to mention the weaponms that effect said materials, it would be very difficult o make something impressive yet believable.

[Shuma]

Are we talking 'bout that thing The Force Unleashed has? where diferent materials act diferently when hit by X object?

I think it would 'cause too much strain on a machine. Especially on an RTS.

[Kadaeux]

@Kadaeux: How does a lasgun explode body parts, its a laser not an explosive.

It isn't explained in the books and articles where it occurs but presumably the energy flash-turns the body liquids in the location (blood etc) into steam, this would explode the limb.

[Tron]

Quote: Shuriken weapons: Throw a steak into the blender... ....

that made me laugh hard man but yeah a single person with only a pistol should NOT be able to take down an ENTIRE building by itself that is physicly imposible in real life even if you did it for a year it would not be downed so i belive there should be SOME realism in the fact that its a friggen pistol not a hand held rocket launcher

[NeoHunter]

I remember a short story on the Games Workshop web site that was about two Tau war reporters following a Tau strike force as they attacked an Imperial outpost. The Shas'ui next to the reporters had his head blow apart by a lasgun shot.

So, apparently, lasguns are not some over glorified flashlights as we first assumed them to be.

[LoneWolf666]

In the old fluff, regular lasgun shots were reported to be a bit more powerful than a 7.62 bullet, which is probably the most powerful small arms bullet in existance.

Add to that the fact that you can set your lasgun to use more power per shot and you get some pretty interesting results.

It's not that the lasgun that is weak. It never has been. It's the targets the lasguns are used against - power armor-clad Space Marines, ten foot tall Orkz, Demons etc.

[Fightingfirst]

@Buguba: If a las gun is anything like the lasers we have at the moment the body wouldn't explode. It would quaterise the wound instanly leaving a hole in the body where it went through. Lasers are precision cutting tools basically they won't cause an explosion unless the body is comprised of explodable or flammable materials. It may though cause clothing to catch fire but there would be no explosion.

[Kadaeux]

@Buguba: If a las gun is anything like the lasers we have at the moment the body wouldn't explode. It would quaterise the wound instanly leaving a hole in the body where it went through. Lasers are precision cutting tools basically they won't cause an explosion unless the body is comprised of explodable or flammable materials. It may though cause clothing to catch fire but there would be no explosion.

No Lasgun description is consistent with modern lasers.

And even modern lasers of sufficient beam width can cause an explosion through the flash "steaming" of any liquids within the target. However we don't have any lasers of sufficient "power" currently.

[Noble]

Ok folks, lets get this back on the topic of destructible environments and specifically how they will be implemented in DoW2. There is a perfectly good fluff forum (http://forums.relicnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=108) that you are free to use if you want to talk about the particulars of IG lasgun operation. Citing fluff in your posts is absolutely fine, just try to relate it back to the OP and DoW2.

[Fightingfirst]

@Kadaeux Ok i was wrong thanks for correcting me

I hope buildings aren't t too easy to destroy so it takes the whole point of garrisoning troops inside

[Kadaeux]

REMOVED QUOTE DIRECTLY ABOVE BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT'S KINDA REDUNDANT... :handbag: -Dyn

It's cool, and hopefully it helps the devs should they choose to implement these features.

And I agree, I'd hate easy to destroy structures. (Without a solid artillery barrage.)

For Example. A Lascannon armed Predator should not be able to easily bring a building down without spending some time to do it. Lascannons are surgical strike weapons for the purpose of defeating enemy heavy armour. Not demolitions weapons.

However a Basilisk would bring down a building with considerable more ease due to being an extremely high explosive weapon. (Ten Basilisks struck by freak lightning detonated powerfully enough to level 2 square kilometres of terrain in one of the Gaunts Ghosts books.)

An Ork Pulsa Rokkit would have an even easier time of it. (I hope they implement Pulsa rokkits, they're fun....)

[The Legate]

With the new engine will it be possible for a unit thrown into a lamp post or wall will damage the structure with a dent, etc. This would make the game a lot more realistic and amazing on the special effects side. Don't you agree?