Squiggoth and BT, tweaks

[War-Reborn]

Everyone knows the squig has terrible pathing, it's been pointed out time and time again yet not fixed, so the conclusion i draw is it's not fixable or to expensive to fix

Solution, give the squigoth better FOTM accuracy so the time spent trying to get him were you want fighting off that horrible pathing is offsett by the fact that he is at least doing some dmg on his long and often laboured journey to his target

What do people think would be a fair FOTM for him?

BT, this is something thats long annoyed me, i think the BT is fine as a unit, but one thing that is irritating is the way his regen bonus never gets applied properly

Theres been times when i have been casuing all manner of chaos and destruction with my BT and he's health is unmoving.....smashing up a tank, no bonus, reducing buildings to rubble, no bonus, he only seems to get this bonus when fighting infantry, it's very limiting, he should get his bonus whenever he's in combat and smashing things, it's shouldn;t matter what manner of destruction he's engaged in so long as he's engaed in it!

[ImmortalChaos]

My suggestions:

-Like, quadruple the freaking squiggy turn speed.
-Make his model as small as possible without having him going through things
-30% accuracy on the move for shootas (currently he has 50% while standing so this is pretty good, though not too good), made able to shoot while turning (currently he can't)
-Zzap gun FoTM taken away (this is actually a small buff, because he won't be wated reloading after shooting at 15% accuracy while moving about. Buffing the FoTM directly would be OTT, since the zzap gun does a good 200 DPS to infantry, so I figure this is the better option)

-Simply change the BT regen bonus to have the same requirements as the cultist reinforce modifier

[corncobman]

-Simply change the BT regen bonus to have the same requirements as the cultist reinforce modifier

The Cultist reinforce modifier is done in a different way to the Bloodthirster health regeneration.

The Cultist modifier only affects the speed of reinforcement in combat. The Bloodthirster way only affects health regeneration in melee.

[War-Reborn]

BT just needs to have it changed so it works the same as the elder avitar, so when he's in battle he's regenerating.

I forgot about the turn speed, good point, not to fast though the move animations need to still look realistic

[zer0nix]

agree with op on both points. for the squiggoth i say, give him close to the same accuracy as when he's standing; in fact, imho this should be the case for all walkers and tanks (and particularly for weapons with a slow reload like the sm dreadnought lascannon >:( ).



-30% accuracy on the move for shootas (currently he has 50% while standing so this is pretty good, though not too good), made able to shoot while turning (currently he can't)
i agree with this and only this in your list. with the other suggestions, it simply wouldn't be the squig anymore.

also, i had no idea the squig couldn't shoot while turning. that is a shocker and actually explains quite a lot.


the avatar can regen when not in battle though, oddly enough, if you damage him past a certain point he simply will not regen anymore.


another suggestion for the squig: i want him to be able to ram everything with his rampage, short of obstructing terrain and standing buildings. in fact, i would love it if he could brush past buildings and obstructing terrain that just slightly clip into the model while dealing damage to those very structures. it would make him loads more fun to play with.

there are few things more annoying in dow than sending your squiggoth on what looks like would be a perfect rampage and instead have it instead stop in it's tracks for no apparent reason before moving a single step. by then, OF COURSE the enemy's anti daemon units have closed in and have already gotten a few free hits on the squig. ornery bastard.

[D153453D]

destruction with my BT and he's health is unmoving.....smashing up a tank, no bonus, reducing buildings to rubble, no bonus, he only seems to get this bonus when fighting infantry, it's very limiting, he should get his bonus whenever he's in combat and smashing things, it's shouldn;t matter what manner of destruction he's engaged in so long as he's engaed in it!

The BLOOD THIRSTER thirsts for BLOOD! He doesn't want scape metal. Sure if may be fun, but the dude needs some blood.

I think he should only get his regen while killing infantry, and possibly adding a sync kill where he holds them up and squeezes their blood out to drink it, perhaps getting back a decent chuck of HP back.

Perhaps lose hp faster when not in battle, but gain hp faster in battle killing. I'm going for the fluff and diversity amoungst races approach.

[Gabriel]

The Bloodthirster already HAS that sync kill, though of course it has no special effect aside from the usual invulnerability.

[SubakuGaara]

The Cultist modifier only affects the speed of reinforcement in combat. The Bloodthirster way only affects health regeneration in combat.

I think what he meant was the rules behind it. The cultist modifier kicks in when cultists attack anything or are being attacked by anything. The bt regen kicks in when he melees something, not when he is being shot at or being meleed. Just make it so that whenever he is under fire he gets his regen and it'll be fine.

[corncobman]

Easy peasy.

The Bloodthirster has multiple modifiers affecting his health. One is the -4 health degeneration normally. Another is the -4 health decrease in combat, i.e. +4 regeneration, resulting in 0 health change when he is in combat. The last one is a +5 change when he is in melee.

Remove the +5 modifier when he's in melee and change the in-combat health decrease modifier from -4 to -9. In other words +9 regeneration in combat.

Since the Bloodthirster has -4 degeneration normally, the net effect will be +5 (-4 + 9) regeneration when he is in combat, not just in melee.

[ImmortalChaos]

Which is exactly what I suggested...


with the other suggestions, it simply wouldn't be the squig anymore.
Oh yeah, I agree, the squiggy needs to be a piece of shit just because you like it that way. Why anyone would want to have terrible pathing assosiated with the supposesedly most powerful unit of a race is beyond me.

[Mute Orphan]

I say make it so when you load up a unit in the squig it acts like the dark eldar transport in the sense that the guys inside can shoot outside of the squig or atleast man some more zzap guns or somthing, honestly that things shit as it is atleast make it look a little more appealing

[ImmortalChaos]

Zzap gun? Shit? Are you playing the same game as me? The thing does 200 freaking DPS to infantry, and about 120 to vehicles. That is far from shit if you ask me.

[White_Pointer]

-Like, quadruple the freaking squiggy turn speed.
-Make his model as small as possible without having him going through things

These two things are not going to happen in a patch. An increase in his turn speed will require new animations, because simply speeding up his current turning animations will look ridiculous. Making his model smaller also isn't going to happen - it requires a new mesh to be created, perhaps new textures and shaders to be created, a new skeleton structure made up, and new animations to go with it. Simply re-scaling the existing one down a few sizes is impossible. But just assuming for a moment that it was possible, it'll be the most inefficient use of polys and textures in the history of RTS games :P

Needless to say, anything that requires new models, textures or animations is not going to happen in a patch.

White_Pointer

[corncobman]

Maybe not the model but the clip area size reduced.

[ImmortalChaos]

No, not decrease the actual size of the model, rather decrease the size of the base. He would look the same, the gigantic circle under him would just be amaller, and thus he would have less trouble getting through tight spaces. In fact I'd like to see his base changed to a rectangular shape rather than the circle, which wastes so much space around his sides.

As for him looking silly with an increased turn speed- It wouldnt be that bad.

[Xanthian]

Yeah, I have to agree with both D and Chaos here.

The blood thirster loses health when not in combat and gains health when he's quenching his thirst for blood. He doesn't lose nor gain health when he's in combat with something that doesn't bleed. It's fluffy and I don't really see a reason to mess with it. As has been pointed out, he's not the shrapnelthirster.

The squiggoth is meant to be used on ranged stance. The daemon_high armor makes it a better proposition for taking damage while shooting than vehicle_high in a lot of cases (most daemon_high counters are melee, for one thing, and every single army has a ranged veh_high counter). The melee is NOT, repeat, NOT its strength. It has a 2 second reload on melee and 65% accuracy. Oblit/defiler syndrome TO THE EXTREME. It loses to every other melee uber in melee (and every other ranged uber in a straight shootout). The only time you would want it in melee is vs a ranged uber, which realistically isn't going to happen if the ranged uber is moving. THE SQUIGGOTH IS A RANGED UBER, BUT IS THE ONLY RANGED UBER THAT CAN BE TIED UP, AND IS THE WORST RANGED UBER AT SHOOTING. That's the point you should be taking away from this. That and the fact that it's the best tanking ranged uber, but the worst assaulting. Also, its pathing problems can sometimes be exploited to your advantage if the wind is blowing right, you're on a completely open map and the enemy has no vehicles, and none of the infantry farts or moves, then you can sometimes rampage him into the rear of the enemy army, completely halting any retreats.

Do I think the bloodthirster is useful? He flies, annihilates bases, and he's in the same army as the chaos lord/daemon prince. Hell yeah, he's useful. That's possibly too much uber countering for one army to be allowed to have.

Do I think the squiggoth is useful? For 3 vehicle pop you can't beat it. It's not as instantly good as the bloodthirster perhaps, but he's a better staller and has secondary uses (retreating broken squads in to recover morale/force a retarget, for example). If the squiggoth loses its pathing problems, then realistically the knarloc would have to do the same, and probably the baneblade (although that might be a nerf since you'll no longer be firing half a screen in front of the techpriest repairing it). Ork tier 3 is more than strong enough to fight anyone's tier 4 as it is anyway.

[mlai]

1. Change Squiggy's movements = NO. Just give him 90-100% FotM for all his weapons. Yeah that's right 90-100%. Because this uber is *constantly* moving.

Note: Yes to 90-100% FotM for all melee walker ranged weaponry. Yes to Sentinel switching its laser with the HWT laser.

2. Bloodthirster regen dynamics change = NO. Just increase his regen number when fighting infantry. Fixed.

[ImmortalChaos]

1. Change Squiggy's movements = NO. Just give him 90-100% FotM for all his weapons. Yeah that's right 90-100%. Because this uber is *constantly* moving.
Already suggested a 60% FoTM rate as well as actually being able to shoot while turning, though I dont think moving that number up to about 80-90 would be a problem if we left his pathing as a pile of shit.




2. Bloodthirster regen dynamics change = NO. Just increase his regen number when fighting infantry. Fixed.
I'm fine with that.

[War-Reborn]

I'm good with what Mlai says too, my main issue with the current +5 is you rarely get it since it only kicks in in battle with infantry, that in itself is not an issue, but when it's so a bonus as to be and insignificant consideration when using the BT, thats my issue.

So yeah either make it that he gets a standard +5 when in combat or keep it as now but give a decent bloodsucking regen when he's in combat with infantry like +15 or 20

[Xanthian]

As for him looking silly with an increased turn speed- It wouldnt be that bad.

"Sir, the big green rhino with spiky armor plates big guns is only taking 3 seconds to turn around!"

"Good God Man! Reality is imploding!! Oh well, at least the green bar below that huge minotaur shaped thing is behaving the same way it always has."

[White_Pointer]

As for him looking silly with an increased turn speed- It wouldnt be that bad.

Trust me, it'll look ridiculous if they kept the current animation and simply sped it up. To increase his turn speed properly, they'll need to create a new and faster turning animation.

In fact now that I think of it simply speeding up the current animation probably isn't possible anyway as it'll make it inconsistent with the framerate of the other animations.

White_Pointer

[corncobman]

Matching the animation to the turn rate can go screw itself. Gameplay matters more.

[White_Pointer]

Okay, so if animation doesn't matter, let's just make it so the squiggoth doesn't have a turn animation at all and instead just pivots and turns on the spot like he's attached to a pole. I'm sure that'll look completely awesome too :P

White_Pointer

[corncobman]

It'll be like a giant green horned four-legged ballerina. I love it!

[Xanthian]

Dammit. I'm now positively obsessed with the idea of a nintendogs squiggoth.

Nintendo can has crossover with relic? Plz? :awesome:

[mlai]

Animations do matter. Prime reason why I oppose all mods which change Necron walk speeds.

Squiggy doesn't need good movement. It has pwnage ranged weaponry; all it needs is great FOTM.

[fs_xyz]

We need flying Squiggoth. :p

But aside from the buff to the Squig itself. I think map also play important part due to Squig's special ability.
Unless if somehow there is something that can be changed which allow Squig to ignore small obstacle when using its special ability.

[Xanthian]

From what I understand, reducing the squiggoth's footprint and changing nothing else about it would, alone, be enough to make rampage a much more reliable proposition.

But -- can't we just give it more abilities instead... like sit, roll over, bark, beg, play dead...

[mlai]

Can rampage at least knock aside light vehicles and walkers? I mean, arty can do that. Just give rampage the same knockback strength as that.

[ImmortalChaos]

Give rampage obscene knockback stregnth even. I want to see baneblades take flying lessions too.

[mlai]

@ Imm:
If we do that, normal infantry will fly off the map area.

[Xanthian]

Give rampage obscene knockback stregnth even. I want to see baneblades take flying lessions too.

And then stop dead once it runs into fire dragons. :p

[ImmortalChaos]

If we do that, normal infantry will fly off the map area.
Eh, sounds good to me. It's not like the thing ever hits anything.

Also, it would send fragons and baneblades about the same distance :p

[mlai]

FDragons have just about the stupidest reason ever, for having magnetic boots.

"OMG they have short range they must have boots." What? Arty are always long range, so does it matter whether FDs are standing 20 tics away or 35 tics away? WTF are we giving them boots for? Who cares if they are short range they have FOF. Does anyone actually think FDs are underpowered??

[War-Reborn]

yeah FD concrete boots is pretty naff, it just doesn't look right

[Xanthian]

"We cannot be knocked over. Our boots have infinite mass."

"Then how do you move if your feet are so heavy?"

"Turn on fleet of foot. Duh."

[Zany Reaper]

White_Pointer - You have not taken into account that the visual ingame size of a unit can simply be changed using the 'vis_scale' commands in the certain sim_vis lua files.

However, I don't think that the Squiggoth needs a size reduction, merely a footprint reduction. Problem with that would be that the sides of the squiggoth may clip certain parts of other (collidable) objects - but at least it would improve the pathfinding.

Reducing the green selection circle, as far as I know, has no actual ingame effect. It does however suit the squiggoth to have this made smaller, especially if the footprint size is reduced. ATM, it looks too big.

[mlai]

Oh come on. Can't be making Squiggy smaller.

Aside from inconsequential personal peeves, this does nothing except make the game less fun.

[corncobman]

I don't know about you but I find it less fun if the Squiggoth is blocked by anything ranging from a shrub to your own troops.

[mlai]

Making Squiggy smaller does not fix that problem.
The problem is with rampage as a function. Fix that.

[White_Pointer]

White_Pointer - You have not taken into account that the visual ingame size of a unit can simply be changed using the 'vis_scale' commands in the certain sim_vis lua files.

Yes I have, actually. I'm saying that resizing the model without actually doing it properly will make it look crap.

White_Pointer

[D-coy]

If I'm right setting the force of rampage to something around 90 should make it more useful, since it would push around walkers too... and that would look funneh. :)

Or just reduce its cooldown time.

Cheers

[Gannadene]

Random, possibly completely imba thinking:

It would be nice if the Squiggoth actually moved even slower and had a matching animation speed (!) but did a AoE knock down on nearby infantry with each step, and had a short range, fast to recharge teleporter of some sort. Of course the rampage would have the same speed, and work just as poorly as it does now.

Really, though, adding a generic always-on benefit would be nice. Causing minor damage while moving to nearby enemy infantry... morale damage, or boost... whatever.

[Xanthian]

Heh, the squiggoth adding pseudo 3 members per squad (3-6 extra mob value and 3 members' worth of mob bonuses for that squad) would be kinda cool. But the squiggoth itself shouldn't have a direct influence on the Waagh, that'd be more the domain of the warboss, who already has plenty of that stuff.

[SubakuGaara]

you could just adjust the squigs accuracy values so that they make sense...

all melee ubers need a slow poison effect imo. As it stands all melee ubers pale drastically in comparison to their ranged vehicle opponents because of the inability to kill fleeing targets.

[spinarx]

Making Rampage work is pretty much a good fix for the Squiggoth. Making sure that it can knockback almost anything with a force of 90, that should even make a Monolith slide abit but of course, buildings can be left aside. The problem now is that due to the poorly coded Rampage ability the Squiggoth can't even get to battle properly, making many players having to resort it to be used in range stance...something that seems quite lame with that massive size and tank-gouging sized horns and teeth. Tweaking his melee attack is also a great idea so he won't overkill cultists or take eternity to murder a T1 squad due to the fact that he hits every 3 seconds sometimes and overkills them to boot.

[D-coy]

Maybe buffing its special attack damages (especially the stompy one's) would make the Squiggoth more intimedating. Or increase it's melee accuracy and fix its shootas.

Just throwing ideas around.

Cheers

[fs_xyz]

Allow units inside its bunker to shoot big shootas or flash gitz's weapon ?

[War-Reborn]

Thats actually a very good idea, i don't think it would be fair that they shoot there own weapons as that would be far to much dmg con sidering the protection of being in the bunker, but shooting out of it with some generic bunker weapons al la IG would be a nice touch

[farseer_derek]

they already do shoot out of it..... im pretty sure...

[Gabriel]

No they don't.

[ViS]

they already do shoot out of it..... im pretty sure...

Only IG bunkering and DE Raiders feature this.

[Skurk3583]

Maybe if putting a squad in the squiggoth increased it's Zzap gun accuracy? Maybe each slot increases the accuracy more. So a 10% increase for one slot, and 20% for two?
Orks would be better gunners than Grotts I imagine...bit of fluff there...

[Jaimas]

You know what would fix IG Bunkering? If IG Bunkers were set up like DE Raiders, so what you put in was what you got.

[ViS]

That would drastically decrease the effectiveness of bunkering early game, imo.

[Jaimas]

It would also nerf people trying to abuse Techpriest-stuffing into buildings, and it would actually make the likes of the Ogryn "bulky" trait mean something beyond a turned off/on weapon. It'd also give you a reason to stuff things in bunkers in the first place instead of purely to have a Techpriest activate the guns.

[mlai]

I don't see the problem of having TPs to activate guns. I like the IG bunker mechanic as it is currently. It does exactly what it's supposed to: Viable anti-rush firepower OOTB in tier 0-1, but once the map is filled with tier 2 mass, it's time to come out and fight.