View Full Version : Bikes for SM and Orks.
24th Apr 08, 12:39 PM
Is there any reason why there should not be Space Marine and Ork bike units for DoW2? Why were they never implemented in DoW1 in the first place? For those who don't play the Tabletop game, these bike units have existed for a while now in TT.
24th Apr 08, 12:46 PM
I believe the reasoning for them not being implemented in the original DoW was that:
A) Their role as a fast attack skirmishing unit was already filled by the land speeder.
B) There were some engine limitations that prevented the bikes from moving and animating quite right.
It would be neat if they implemented bikes as cheap and relatively weak early game scouting and harassing units, leaving the land speeder for mid to late game use. Though, that might crowd out the assault marines since they are pretty much the masters of early game harassment
Given how awesome the Wermacht bikes were in CoH, I doubt the same engine limitations exist to prevent them from looking quite right.
24th Apr 08, 1:41 PM
If DoW2 is gonna have more units per faction, I wouldn't be surprised to see bikes in it. But we already have land speeders. Hope there's a big difference between them.
24th Apr 08, 4:21 PM
Space Marine Bikes - Fast and tough Tactical Marines. Best used as melee tie-up, because their increased cost makes them inefficient at ranged combat but their speed and increased durability makes them good at getting to the enemy and staying in melee. Land Speeders are mobile fire support.
Ork Warbikes - Fast and tough Slugga Boyz armed with big shootas. You can also get Nobz on bikes, which is very expensive but highly dangerous. Stormboyz can't shoot for peanuts and aren't as powerful, but can jump.
Bikes can easily be made different from other fast attack units with a little thought. And not just for Space Marines and Orks, Eldar get jetbikes, Chaos get bikes, Reavers are actual bikes rather than vehicles.
24th Apr 08, 5:05 PM
bikes can be really interesting in dow 2 because of the physics:
- bike could knock down units (an example of this is trampling in bfme 1&2)
- maybe do some kind of jumps (like jumping down from a higher level)
24th Apr 08, 6:39 PM
I really hope they add bikes in this time, I have always wanted to have an Ork Speed Freaks Army go head on into the White Scars strike force.
24th Apr 08, 6:43 PM
I really hope they don't implement bikes, they are like the lamest things ever. 8ft+ Superhuman soldiers clad in tank armor driving around in Harlies. Badass. :rolleyes:.
24th Apr 08, 6:57 PM
But they are armoured bikes. With guns! Anything that makes a Space Marine faster is a good thing, no?
Fish Of Doom
24th Apr 08, 7:27 PM
well, if he gets thrown by a raging avatar of khaine he'll go FAST!, but it's not very good innit(for the SM, at least):p.
joking aside, i'd like to see them used intelligently by the units. i mean, i don't know how they work in tt, but if they're huge bikes with huge front armor panels and a turret on the handlebars, then they could instantly switch between cc and ranged. in fact, have them shooting at the same time they charge, and in cc distance they veer off a little to the side, sweep with a chainsword or w/e the sm has on hand(hell, even a short kick), then shoot away in zigzag to evade fire, rinse and repeat; or just riding in circles around the enemy while happily slashing away, preventing a good amount of return strikes.
24th Apr 08, 7:29 PM
If TT players could get their hands on a DoW SM Land Speeder as easily as an SM player could in DoW, EVERY TT SM player would want one! With a Stormbolter and a twin-linked Assault Cannon, what's not to like?!
If they had the standard SM Landspeeder armament, would that have given more of a reason to get SM bikes (especially Attack Bikes)? Then again, how are you supposed to animate and figure out the pathing for melee bikes, anyhow? It's not like the SM Biker Miniatures all carry lances or something.
Fish Of Doom
24th Apr 08, 7:44 PM
they carry swords. and big ass armor boots. they ride past you, and do a sweeping attack. doesn't even have to be targeted, it can be like those massive knockdowns the commanders make in DoW 1, only with less knockdown.
also, the awesomest sync kill ever: biker SM hits, opponent gets dazed, biker rides past just a little bit, does a wheelie with 180 degree turn and lands the front of the bike on top of the opponent :D:D:D:D.
24th Apr 08, 7:47 PM
How about ramming attacks, running them over, or driving past them wildy swinging melee weapons to the side?
24th Apr 08, 8:00 PM
In real life, Cavalry carried lances because that would ensure the weapon would hit first on a charge with more effect than if the rider tried charging with a sword on point and ended up hitting with the horse first.
Orks riding boars, Kroot riding Krootoxen/Knarlocs and even Chaos Lords with a Daemonic Steed don't suffer from this problem because the mount itself is a deadly weapon--the charge isn't necessary to bring your weapon to bear. And besides, a horse in real life can certainly turn on the spot to bring a rider's weapon to bear with less fuss than a motorbike could. I think only Eldar Shining Spears and IG Rough Riders use Lances as Cavalry.
But of course, I'm not ignorant of the "if it's cool, it must work" mantra of GW. The feasability problems likely came to a head with Relic when they tried to figure out "how do we animate this thing's melee attacks without looking stupid?" and then decided it wasn't worth the trouble, let alone the trouble the pathing for bikes might cause!
And are you sure that kind of sync-kill would make full use of the Essence Engine's enhanced gore displays? Why not have a sync-kill where the rider does a wheelie ONTO his victim, engages the rear brake, and revs the front-drive engine to max, reducing the hapless victim underneath to a shredded paste? (That, in my mind, is the best way to burn rubber!) It's not like this game will be rated T or anything less than an M!
24th Apr 08, 8:03 PM
Fit snow chains to the tires for added sheddingness!
Or how about using a ramp to jump and land on the victim, like some cheap action movie chase scene?
Besides it isn't a massive stretch to add massive spikes or blades to the front of a bike for ramming purposes if that's what the bike is intended for.
24th Apr 08, 8:17 PM
Besides it isn't a massive stretch to add massive spikes or blades to the front of a bike for ramming purposes if that's what the bike is intended for.
Yeah, but that sort of thing isn't on the miniatures, and the miniatures had to be used as reference as much as possible.
And unlike a rider using a lance, where the rider can simply brace himself using the mount, hitting with the bike itself tends to throw the rider forward, and possibly OFF the bike. I've seen this myself, unfortunately.
Maybe the best compromise would be to have the SM biker (NOT attack bike) do a charge with the twin-linked bolters blazing, then do a sliding stop (like real skilled bikers can do), melee arm facing the victim, with a slash or punch from the Close Combat Weapon or Power Fist? That wouldn't scream "stupid" at first glance anyway, and it might be easier to animate than having a Space Marine try to do a drive by slash against a Terminator and then make people think the biker should have been thrown off, or against an Eldar Guardian and make people wonder why it didn't just jump to the side where the biker wasn't carrying a melee weapon. Besides, real-life infantry don't stand waiting to be slashed on the melee-arm side of the biker--you can't free both your hands and control a bike at the same time, unlike a horse.
While it's possible (albeit a waste) in the TT game to have Attack bikes use melee attacks, I bet they'd likely be restricted to shooting only in a game incarnation.
24th Apr 08, 11:56 PM
I wanna see Rough Riders impaling stuff. Sync-kill goodness.
25th Apr 08, 3:47 AM
I don't think Bikes would work....they would require a lot of animating to get right, turning circles having to stop and back up rather then rotate on the spot like a turn table (I can imagine it being a pain to balance them too). They wouldn't go toe to toe but rather keep driving past their enemies shooting at them and swinging chainsaws trying to decapitate them. It sounds great in theory but I think they would be awkward in the game world.
As has been mentioned landspeeders cover the fast attack role for Spacemarines and while they do tend to be more static in DoW then they should be it dosn't detract from their role of fast moving gun platforms.
There is also the benefit of a landspeeder being a 1 unit vehicle where as a bike isn't a vehicle and dosn't travel alone they use squadrons which I would assume means multiple bikes and multiple pathing nightmares as they do laps around target units.
Maybe if Relic really really wanted to they could make it work I just think on a pure bang for buck time basis they would avoid bikes.
25th Apr 08, 8:56 AM
I really hope they don't include them. They would jsut be like flier in SS, great on paper but a real let down in the game. They would have the same mechanic as flyers, move to target and stop to shoot at the target. If they managed it so they never stopped moving like flyers should have been implemented and then hey I am all for it. But I would prefer relic to balance existing units/adding customizable options/traits to certain units i.e. blood angels have black rage or raven guard's troop choice is prodominantly fast att. etc.
25th Apr 08, 9:26 AM
bikes are different from fliers since you can use them to ram unit. You can't use dow as a reference for dow 2 (especially flying units...). I think that if they're implemented, they should be in movement most of the time (to avoid standing in one spot and shooting).
I think relic is trying to get the most from the physic engine, which make units like bikers an interresting option.
About land speeder, since ranged combat will be better (according to first article, dread assault cannon really owned the orks fast)... can't imagine how good a land speeder could be in dow2 (I'm guessing that he will be easily take down by most av too)
25th Apr 08, 9:35 AM
@ Akuma85: I'm not saying DOW2 is going to be anything like DOW, all im saying is that if they use the same mechanics for biking units as they did use for flyers and have them not moving constantly then I would rather they are not included.
25th Apr 08, 9:56 AM
A flying unit with no visible method of hovering on the spot when it comes to a standstill is bad. However a bike can feel free to stop, whenever it likes.
Bikes are primarily for fast movement and recon, as such DoW didn't have enough space for this, nor did recon pose such a key mechanic as to have such a heavy unit for it. Then the differing TT aspects, and fluff aspects of the different bikes makes implementation harder. Ork Warbikes like to plow into melee, whilst shooting, that's hell to create, you need to sort out collsions, make ranged fire in melee not look entirely retarded.
DoW 2 could have bikes in so far as possibly having big enough maps for such speedy hardy recon. It's nice having a unit that can take on enemy scouts then withdraw when enemy backup arrives. In fact it's nice having higher tier scouts fullstop.
As for continual movement, why? They can and will stop. However they could be phenomenally badass if they charged through melee, firing weapon at full tilt, then slicing through melee with a free hand, ramming enemies then withdrawing or circling round for another run. Cavalry in Kingdom Under Fire and the like is a good example of this mechanic.
25th Apr 08, 9:59 AM
I wonder if the cavalry mechanic you're talking about, Sword_Monkey, would be best served by having squads of bikes rather than individuals. Then you could get a line of them to charge an enemy position, much like cavalry in the Total War games. Do the bikes to that sort of thing in the fluff or TT?
25th Apr 08, 12:32 PM
It would be cool to see them as scout units. Although it would be a bit lame if they stopped moving.
If a bike is killed, there could be a 10 percent chance that it could plow into a group of enemies and explode, allowing the rider to dismount and fight on foot.
25th Apr 08, 12:33 PM
I really don't understand what's wrong with bikes that stop moving. Bikes stop moving all the time. It's not out of character for them at all. Motorcycles don't just start going in circles when they hit a red light.
25th Apr 08, 1:09 PM
Wow, bikers would be fantastic if Relic could impliment them into DoWII. They'd be difficult to get right though and I wouldn't blame Relic for missing them out.
Speaking as someone who fell off his bike last sunday, the bikes will have to break for a distance before stopping. However, they wouldn't try to do this is before getting into assault, and its not as if they're going to take an entire screen's length to brake.
25th Apr 08, 5:42 PM
@.@ i would actualy like to see bikes and bicycles have the guard ride on the ten speed. Jk JK ;p
But so far as i know bikes are becoming either hard to make or not needed because of umm >.> UMMMMM its was in the thread i made about imperial lost tech, bikes was not really being made. and only one chapter or so had them
25th Apr 08, 6:18 PM
bikes are available fully (i.e. not 0-x) in codices smurf, angels of both colours, wolves, and templars. they are HARDLY lost tech.
jetbikes, on the other hand...only unforgiven ravenwing masters have them.
25th Apr 08, 8:43 PM
Yes bikes are readily available to most chapters, in fact only one chapter I know of doesn't use them much; The Salamanders, because of their high gravity homeworld not being kind to light vehicles.
Anyhow squads of bikes was implied. But I'd think a 1 man squad reinforcable up to 3 or 5 by TT standards. With of course, the option of attack bikes armed with heavier weapons. Basically a tougher, faster squad of normal marines, with less numbers and fewer special weapons.
25th Apr 08, 8:53 PM
Please remind me; what's great enough about motorbikes on the TT that merits an entire model line (and all the associated costs)? Last I heard, you can even sink some points to get some commanders some bikes, even. Must be a nightmare to convert if you're not the smartest with your tools. Why would you take a motorbike-riding character instead of, say, a jetpack equipped character instead? The jetpacker doesn't even have to worry about difficult terrain or intervening obstacles, even!
Personally, I don't think Rough Riders or Shining Spears would be too difficult to implement. They can turn on the spot (resolving a lot of pathing problems), the Rough Riders have real analogues the animators can copy, and both can attack right in melee right in front with their lances, as opposed to (C)SM bikers who have to either do a sliding stop or be smart enough to turn to the side their melee weapon is on to attack, both of which could be quite difficult to code and iron out the bugs with.
25th Apr 08, 9:03 PM
Bikers benefit from improved toughness, twice the firepower (two bolters, okay they're 'twin-linked' but still) and straight up speed. Jet packs get a good charging speed and can jump over anything but that's it.
In the game bikers would be as fast or faster than the majority of Dark Eldar units methinks.
As for pathing, a bike can always skid around and look awesome doing it if it wants to turn on the spot.
26th Apr 08, 1:49 PM
At the very least, there's no reason to not have Attack Bikes in the game, since Company of Heroes, using the same engine can manage them.
As for bike squads, it depends on how complex you want to make them I guess. You could just have them be a squad of vehicles after all, meaning no need for close combat animations at all. Though, that would be a bit of a disappointment, but at least they'd be in there.
Fish Of Doom
26th Apr 08, 2:25 PM
maybe don't give them a close combat function. make them ranged vehicles, with a "melee charge" ability, that they can use to hit an run with a single attack, applying knockdown. and since a bike is highly mobile, and 40k bikes tend to be quite thick(thus more stable than your average m3 motorbike), they needn't be "locked" in CC, as they can just back away or ram a charging enemy(although it might be a bad idea against a termi or a warboss :p), which would make it useful for squads of characters wishing to avoid close combat(for example, in the DOW2 sm/ork context, a tac squad facing up against nobs, or speed freeks against powerfisted termis).
29th Apr 08, 8:32 AM
I don't mind bikes... as long as they come in black and white.
29th Apr 08, 4:48 PM
I don't mind bikes... as long as they come in black and white
I think bikes would be great . They could have some sort of command where they run up to a tank and slap a bomb onto it . Could help when your oppenent brings on his 'super shiny tank ' [ Baneblade / Landraider ]
30th Apr 08, 1:19 AM
DoW has CC vehicles. I don't see any objections for DoW2 to have CC bikes. With Charge/Knockback/Impale/Whatever.
30th Apr 08, 2:08 AM
I've never really been a fan of bikes, much. In my opinion, the only interesting thing I've seen done with them in tabletop was the old smoke screen effect that ork bikes used to grant infantry behind themselves (free cover, essentially). And that's no longer even around anymore...
From the ork side of things, I'd think deth koptas would be a better fit with more versatility, and I don't think I've ever seen a bike fielded by an SM player in the first place.
4th May 08, 8:47 PM
I want Bikers, they could quite easily replace the Scout Unit, or even the Scout Unit could have the Bikes as part of their itinery.
5th May 08, 1:52 PM
Or we can have it as a wargear option for the scout sergeant. Do a mission where they discover some bikes and the scout unit starts using them. Increasing speed but decreasing sneakiness.
5th May 08, 2:36 PM
CoH has bikes.
CoH (British) have a tank ability called Tank Shock - in essence driving straight at the enemy to run them over.
Combine with 40k.
You now have working bikes.
This isn't beyond the engine at all, its entirely possible and feasible. :)
5th May 08, 4:53 PM
I heard Relic was utilising the CoH engine for DoW2, so maybe bikes will finally be included. :borg:
8th May 08, 4:35 AM
I'd imagine bikes would be easier to get right than fliers. As has already been mentioned, fliers shouldn't really stop moving (and generally have no reason to want to) whereas a bike squad can happily sit still and pour fire into an enemy unit before using their greater speed to get away if things look hairy.
Hit and run attacks are simple, the drivers trying to plough through rough terrain with enemy taking swings at him, so he keeps both hands on the bike and can only fir in a straight line as he tries to move through the enemy unit.
If he wants to use the fancy close combat weapons then he's going to have to stop and possibly (if you really want to hurt the graphic engine) dismount.
you just need to look at the bike as a means of getting round the battlefield rather than an actual fighting platform (similar to comparing dragoons with knights).
8th May 08, 5:41 AM
I was never a big fan of the bikes in wh40k. And i don't see it working out in DoW2. But the technology to do it is most def in. Since CoH had a few bike models and halftracks. But I dont see it happening DoW2 seems to be more infantery focused.
8th May 08, 3:23 PM
It's totally doable in the Essence engine, and think of the physics they can play with now!
Bike squad cruises towards battlefield, guns blazing, plows into Slugga Boyz squad. Bowling ensues.
Emerges on other side, plus one flailing ork on the front of one of the bikes, screeches to a halt and turns around, orky goes flying off the end, ragdolling across the ground, very dead. Possibly smashes into a wall with a very satisfying *THUD*. Bike squad charges back at crowd, again, guns blazing, this time with chainsaws, power swords and other Implements of Destruction sticking out the side. Gore ensues.
You can get... any-Thing you want... at Alice's Restaurant. (bonus points for singing along)
What's not to like?
8th May 08, 6:00 PM
omg, dude, Bikes are almost supoir to land speeders, because they can take more hits. I hardly know anyone who takes land speeders, Bikes are tougher anyway, Land Speeders are just dip-S&*^.
Bikes would have more health then speeders and attack bikes will have the same main weapons (sadly, the land speeder is like in 2nd edtion or something, its supposed to be a heavy bolter and assualt cannon) and they can fire both there weapons due to having 2 riders, indeed, bikes are supeoir.
8th May 08, 8:31 PM
I want bikes and assault bikes as much as anyone, but I'm not sure if the engine can run them.
8th May 08, 9:45 PM
Have you played CoH? It has bikes, and they work great (just like everything else in that game...)
I'm sure Relic can work out the technicalities of getting them to behave like they want them to.
I wouldn't have expected bikes to be more durable than land speeders... gotta double-check my codices, lol.
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