Free King Tiger destroys 1v1 games!! Will Relic do something?

[PorT_Lobo]

This is stupid, between intermediate players, vs Wermatch lvl7 in Langres i had the game under control until he gets FREE KING TIGER!!!

That is so unballanced.... alone it destroyed all my army and allows German to control all map, and after kill 3 M10, 2 ATs and several rifles it stands alive.....

I see Relic wanting to reduce Strafing Run, reduce even more allies, but don't touch in this SUPER OP that came for FREE and destroys 1v1 games.... It should cost 900MP as the others or something like that... And what about Panzer Elite? In the best civ you will not touch?

[someboy]

well it actually takes a little strategy to destory KT. very mines cleverly, mines will make KT immobilized or destory engine. which will make it very slow then you can just throw in your ATs with tanks flanking it and shoot it's rear armor. ofcourse i know the enemy has units too and thats when you use strafing runs and bombing runs. if you have enough resouce that is.

[NoneSuch]

Are you telling me that you see no way atall to counter the King Tiger, a unit which can only be used once? I mean it's not like he can just randomly spawn it out of his arse whenever he feels free.

Also after watching the vide you looked like you'd had lost already, he was winning in points and had more control and was pushing you back without the king tiger.

Any large tank would of done the job there for him, it just spilled the balance of forces over a bit more.

Would you have managed to pull through any differently if it was a panzer / panther or just a normal tiger?

I guess the problem you had was it was free, but meh it's definatly not OP.

[Obtuse]

Something's unbalanced? Sounds like a job for the Balance Issues forum! Huzzah!

[(Undecided)]

I'll watch the replay, but the King Tiger is NOT free. You lose 100 mp income for five minutes. Yes, its less than a tiger, but a 5CP one-time call-in should be able to do some noticeable damage.

[Yob]

Its called 1 stickey bomb. The KT already moves slow as crap, so just stickey it and it almost turns into a stationary turret. M10s can circle it faster than its turret can turn. 57mm with ap rounds can hammer it from outside its range. Allies have plenty of stuff that can easily account for a KT. People just dont seem to think about how to take it down.

[zzSleeper]

Its called 1 stickey bomb. The KT already moves slow as crap, so just stickey it and it almost turns into a stationary turret. M10s can circle it faster than its turret can turn. 57mm with ap rounds can hammer it from outside its range. Allies have plenty of stuff that can easily account for a KT. People just dont seem to think about how to take it down.

And then his army of zombie grenandiers kill your AT guns and M10 because you spent hundrends of not thousands of manpower to counter a unit he gets upfront for free.

Seriously, blitz has to pay 250 mun to get 900 manpower upfront. The KT might as well cost nothing.

[Catastrofizum]

KT is defintely too cheap at 500mp payed back as loan over 5 minutes at 100mp per minute with no upfront cost but it's far from unbeatable(same deal for JP). The main reason it usually devastates is because it if often the first armor Terror produces and the ally player has been building a force to handle infantry and get caught with their pants down. When playing against Terror make sure you have at least 2 AT guns when the game is entering that later stage. When you see the KT you want to up this to at least 3 AT guns to contain it. Be very wary of throwing in tanks against it unless the consitions are right - usually at a time when it tries to use brute force to take your AT guns head on. One of they keys to destroying it will be rushing in with rifles and getting as many stickies on it as possible - this will give it a damaged engine (possibly immobilised if you are lucky) making it incredibly slow and vulnerbale to your At guns massacring it. This is also a time to hound it with M10s or upgunned shermans. Remember that even if you don't destroy it completely, inflicting a lagre amount of damage on it will mean a lot of downtime repairing it. Priority target any repairing pios, which the Wehr badly need to maintain and will not be able to easily replace with their reduced income post KT.

[Yob]

Well if you put it that way, he shouldnt even have a KT as strafing run/super paras with rr's should have already won you the game. Seriously, when countering a call in unit it normally costs alot. Anything he looses manpwerwise during the 5 minutes of manpowerloss is going to be very hard to replace. Going from a income of around 240ish down to 140ish will make replacing losses after the kt comes out very hard. So in effect you have 5 minutes to inflict as much hurt on him as possible. Maybe dont even focus on the KT. Kite around it and take your m10's to his base. Make him decide, hurt your army or save his base. Focus on taking out his inf force during this time. Take out anything that costs manpower to replace and he will struggle to fill the gaps. In the end it will leave the KT a sitting duck with little support.

Im not saying its super easy to counter, but there are numerous ways to get around it.

[La Head]

how about allied players actually trying to use combined arms to defeat that turd of a tank. The KT is useless already, i don't see why we need to add a cost for a lame piece of cannon fodder. rarely do i ever use or have seen it used beyond anything but a giant shield to attract gun fire while other units move up.

[zzSleeper]

Well if you put it that way, he shouldnt even have a KT as strafing run/super paras with rr's should have already won you the game.

Strafing run is getting nerfed, and super paras with RR are worthless vs grenadiers.



Seriously, when countering a call in unit it normally costs alot. Anything he looses manpwerwise during the 5 minutes of manpowerloss is going to be very hard to replace. Going from a income of around 240ish down to 140ish will make replacing losses after the kt comes out very hard. So in effect you have 5 minutes to inflict as much hurt on him as possible. Maybe dont even focus on the KT. Kite around it and take your m10's to his base. Make him decide, hurt your army or save his base. Focus on taking out his inf force during this time. Take out anything that costs manpower to replace and he will struggle to fill the gaps. In the end it will leave the KT a sitting duck with little support.

Im not saying its super easy to counter, but there are numerous ways to get around it.

You still dont see it do you. Its a free unit, no the 500 manpower income hit doesnt count, because blitz PAY 250 munitions for 900 manpower upfront.

Without the KT, the wer player has a comparable army to your own. With the KT, it suddenly tips the balance. Taking m10s to his base? I wish people would stop making up stupid strats they've obviously never used. It would take years for M10 to destroy any buildings, and in the mean time his army rolls right over yours because its bigger and it has the KT in it. Then he destroys your bunkers and then your base while you're still struggling to kill his WQ due to the M10 utter worthlessness vs buildings. GG


how about allied players actually trying to use combined arms to defeat that turd of a tank. The KT is useless already, i don't see why we need to add a cost for a lame piece of cannon fodder. rarely do i ever use or have seen it used beyond anything but a giant shield to attract gun fire while other units move up.

Because combined arms fails utterly when you face a horde of vetted grenadiers and a king tiger. If you spend precious manpower on AT, the grenadiers will kill your infantry while the KT simply soaks up hits from the AT. Then the grenadiers(with 1 or 2 shreks) will kill your AT. In exchange you damaged the KT, congrats.

If its so useless then you wouldn't mind if it was changed back to the old tiger ace would you? I think its hilarious calling the most powerful tank in the game a "useless piece of turd". It kills tanks better than the freaking jadgpanther, and it does fairly good vs infantry, plus it has almost two thousand freaking hp.

[(Undecided)]

McLame on the King Tiger: "I admit it's... competitively priced."

Then after a dozen messages about "KT is free win", "You won because of KT", "KT is so OP", "I don't touch OP PE or King Tiger"

McLame: "Glad to see your taking it like a man..."

"This sucks"
"What an OP..."
"I quit"

My sympathy for you shriveled up quite quickly, you were quite a jerk to McLame at the end. As for the KT killing all your stuff, those three M10s? You sent them one by one at the King Tiger. After the first M10 went down he retreated it into his territory for repairs. You then proceeded to send other M10 and Rifle squads into his panzershreck and LMG-infested territory one at a time.





But really I think you lost at this point:



http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h278/Undecided_tmn/TehLose.jpg

[NoneSuch]

I hadn't bothered watching it much after the guy got the KT, but yea after closer inspection why did you continously try to kill it while it was getting repaired? Suciding one or two units at it repetitivly does not = win.

You could of been capping points, or something. If you'd waited and used your m10's together after you'd had disabled it's engines with sticky bombs you would of probably killed it.

Yet you still would of lost, as he was winning before he had the tiger.

[PorT_Lobo]

Well, i am an intermediate player that have the game just two months ago, you can't expect that i play as an expert.

This game shows that in a close game of intermediate players, that was balanced at that moment, KT comes and balance go to heaven. It is only possible to defend if you have great superiority and is waiting for it (what in reality i did not preview during game).

Nevertheless, KT is OP, another option to minimize his power is to make it impossible to repair.... because wermatch just have to put it behind lines and repair it for a while to it get back over and over again.... with ubber infantry supporting it and better other armor cars also.... Game need balance and not just correct Straffing Run but also taking a close look at KT and at Panzer Elite.

[(Undecided)]

Lobo, do you have any idea how long it takes to repair a King Tiger? There is already a thread (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=190396) devoted to either replacing the King Tiger with the Tiger Ace or buffing it. General consensus among forum goers here is that it is not overpowered. Quite a few people believe it to be underpowered.

[Shemwell]

Sorry, Lobo.
Losing sucks, and usually it makes me angry too.
But your obviously ignoring what everyone is telling you.

Sleeper, please be aware of what the issue is before mouthing off.
This is about the king tiger.
Not about the normal tiger and manpower blitz; these are entirely separate things.

[iaguz]

Well, i am an intermediate player that have the game just two months ago, you can't expect that i play as an expert

Good. Then get better, learn how to deal with KT's, stop blaming the game and blame yourself and improve. That would be the manly thing to do.

[hashinshin]

Go play Europe in ruins.

Apparently having 3 M10s and RR squads at your disposal (with APPARENTLY most of the map) you were unable to stop a KT.

He was beaten so bad that.. he still had a full army of grenadiers, enough supplies to reinforce and keep fighting, pay for the repairs (and at -100 MP) for the KT... and generally fight like he was actually winning.

The KT is a big scary monster, just pull it's tail. Land a sticky, pull it over a mine, hit it with AT guns. Even deflections from AT guns will eventually kill it, ask any panther or tiger user what they hate, fighting an M10 or a ATgun thats out of their range.

[IndigoSpyder]

Lol, back in the thread that says to put the Tiger Ace back, people think the King Tiger is useless and not as scary as the Jagpanther.

Is the King Tiger useless and not that scary now?

[scoiatollo]

I don't think that the KT is too strong, it's just that it's too cheap...

I'd even go further and buff it a little (increase it's top speed, and turret speed), add an upfront cost from ~600mp and 20-50mp/min for the rest of his time on the field. The KT should be a game winner imo, but if you fail in the first attempt you'll probably lose because of the insane upkeep costs. It would probably need some tweakings but imo this could work.

[Decker]

I agree with the costs of the King Tiger, they are way to low. It doesn't matter if it's only an one-time-call-in, it's for free and can be a game breaker in 1on1 games.

[IndigoSpyder]

I honestly wouldn't mind if a King Tiger costs 1000mp. You want a superheavy tank, you have to spend for its worth.

How much does a Jagpanther costs? Yeah, something like it, more or less.

EDIT: Hmmm, could it be because it can only be called once is the reason why it doesn't cost a thing? How about giving it a good price but not making it rare?

[BikerGnome]

What bollocks, You thought you had the game under control when in fact you didnt. Terror is a stalling game, basically you need to stall the oponent until you save up the CP for the KT. Those final 5CP take a lot of time to get. You were fighitng someone who was not being supported by many doctrinal abilities. As has been said in other threads you need to watch for players who arent using lots of doctrinal abilities to pre empt the KT, otherwise it is GG.

Try playing as Terror yourself and see how long you can hold out for the KT, without strafe runs, Rangers, AB, off map arty, Storms, assault grenades, amoungst some of the abilites that you couild either have at your diposal or being thrown at you!

[zzSleeper]

What bollocks, You thought you had the game under control when in fact you didnt. Terror is a stalling game, basically you need to stall the oponent until you save up the CP for the KT. Those final 5CP take a lot of time to get. You were fighitng someone who was not being supported by many doctrinal abilities. As has been said in other threads you need to watch for players who arent using lots of doctrinal abilities to pre empt the KT, otherwise it is GG.

Try playing as Terror yourself and see how long you can hold out for the KT, without strafe runs, Rangers, AB, off map arty, Storms, assault grenades, amoungst some of the abilites that you couild either have at your diposal or being thrown at you!

Thats just a lie.

T2 terror was a very viable strat in 1.7. And guess what? It was the same amount of freaking cp to get an ace, and it has the same exact doctrine abilities, except those same doctrine abilities have gotten better!

You wanna tell nystrom that t2 terror is a terrible strat and the lack of doctrine abilities crippled it in 1.7?

Some players have just gotten used to relying on the free(and yes it is free) KT call in as a crutch.

[Catastrofizum]

Some players have just gotten used to relying on the free(and yes it is free) KT call in as a crutch.

Nobody will take you seriously if you can't get a grip on the reality that is reduces manpower income by 100mp per minute for 5 minutes. So, no, it is not free. Personally, I think it's too cheap and should also have a small upfront cost (ditto for JP).

From comments by people that have reviewed the replay it seems that your attempts to fight the KT were the cause of your woes. If you're going to try fight it with M10s then you really need to know your micro. I would stick to 57mmAT guns personally.

[Ballist1x]

Nerf JP,
Increase KT turret speed. Cost 500 MP Upfront, 500MP over 5 minutes.

fixed?

[man4857]

This issue has been debated ever since OF came out. Anyways, I do believe there should be a upfront cost added with the KT considering the MASSIVE damage it can absorb (not to mention artillery shells bouncing off like its nothing, wtf is that!).

500mp over 5 minutes isn't enough, it should be 1000mp upfront or over 5 minutes at the very least for this kind of armor elephant rolling around. Even if everyone says learn to use some stickies, yeah I know how to use some stickies but everytime I use a sticky I lose maybe 50-100mp+ worth of men for scratching the paint off the KT, it's still not worth the stickies. I don't play dumb either like running 2 m10s with micro trying to rear armor shot the KT when it's always supported with shrecked grenadiers if you're playing someone not total noob, then say bye bye to 600mp and 110fuel. Same idea with the 57, yeah it has great range and AP round, but only TWO rounds for 50 munitions, how many AP rounds does it take to take out a KT? tons. and "tons" = time for grenadiers to come in wipe out your AT with shrecks and there goes 280mp +. So in the end, you kill the KT, good you've just lost THOUSANDS of manpower trying to kill the damn thing and that still doesn't justify its 500mp LOAN or its CP cost. (Think about the mp/CP cost for pershing, it sucks useless piece of metal.)

[zzSleeper]

Nobody will take you seriously if you can't get a grip on the reality that is reduces manpower income by 100mp per minute for 5 minutes. So, no, it is not free. Personally, I think it's too cheap and should also have a small upfront cost (ditto for JP).

No upfront cost with only low cost over 5 minutes=might as well be free.

Now if it reduced your manpower income by 150 for 10 minutes, then we're talking serious cost.


From comments by people that have reviewed the replay it seems that your attempts to fight the KT were the cause of your woes. If you're going to try fight it with M10s then you really need to know your micro. I would stick to 57mmAT guns personally.

Why are you talking to me like I'm the OP?


The KT needs to either have a significant MP cost, and by significant I mean something like 750 manpower over 5 minutes with 500 upfront cost or it needs to take up a truely immensely amount of popcap.

[scoiatollo]

Interesting attempt, I never thought about the popcap as a solution. According to coh-stats the KT has a popcap of 16 (Churchs have 14 (Croc has 16), the Pershing has 14, the JP 12) maybe if you double the popcap and give it 500mp upfront (with no cost over time) the problem would be solved.

[Kurzstrecke]

I agree with Bikergnome, the OP was being outplayed and he didn't counter the KT well at all. This post is just a rant.

I frequently use the Terror doctrine and whereas I will agree the KT can sometimes swing the balance of power in an otherwise even matchup but it comes at a price. To people who think it's too cheap, the 16 pop is a lot of pop to leave available late game, that 5cp takes a long time AND if the game is relatively even when the KT comes out... it's because the Wher player is actually outplaying his opponent because he has gone toe-to-toe against the allied side without the benefit of other super doctrinal powers.

All of that said, I was going down in flames the other night, the American player was all over me the whole game and when I was finally able to pull the KT, he killed it the second time he engaged it leaving me with very little to fall back on... the moral of the story is:
Learn to beat what beats you.

[BikerGnome]

Thats just a lie.

T2 terror was a very viable strat in 1.7. And guess what? It was the same amount of freaking cp to get an ace, and it has the same exact doctrine abilities, except those same doctrine abilities have gotten better.
If you are going for a KT
1CP gives you zeal, so as you die you fight harder, nice but you can easily lose a whole squad doing this.

3CP forced retrteat for 100munis, nice but not gonna do that often at that cost. Off map arty and SR come sooner albeit at a higher cost, and these can be game turning. For 150 you can cause soime serious pain, where for a 100 i can make your men runaway (scarey)

5CP KT - 5 CP is a lot expecially after you have got 4 so far. As you are probably aware the more CP you have the longer it takes to get the next one, 5 is a big hill!

That is total 9CP the highest of any doctrine in any faction.

I'm not saying Terror is weak, but heading for a KT is a lot of CP's


How have these abilities gotten better?

[CroatNotBorat]

That is total 9CP the highest of any doctrine in any faction.
True. But then again, Pershing and Tiger are 8 CPs, and you need to save some very serious manpower for them - it's not likely that you'll have it, so you'll have to wait for several minutes (and more CPs) to finally be able to call the tank. I've seen games in which the Pershing was called at 11-12 CPs because it couldn't have been called earlier.

The KT might be at a paper record of 9 CPs, but some other end-of-tree units are effectively at much more.

[zzSleeper]

If you are going for a KT
1CP gives you zeal, so as you die you fight harder, nice but you can easily lose a whole squad doing this.

3CP forced retrteat for 100munis, nice but not gonna do that often at that cost. Off map arty and SR come sooner albeit at a higher cost, and these can be game turning. For 150 you can cause soime serious pain, where for a 100 i can make your men runaway (scarey)

5CP KT - 5 CP is a lot expecially after you have got 4 so far. As you are probably aware the more CP you have the longer it takes to get the next one, 5 is a big hill!

That is total 9CP the highest of any doctrine in any faction.

I'm not saying Terror is weak, but heading for a KT is a lot of CP's


How have these abilities gotten better?

Because it used to be worse?

1 cp zeal, no change.

3 cp firestorm, which is worse than prop war. The old firestorm used to take 15+ seconds to come down, and was basically only used to make your opponents shift their position. Prop war does this, but better. And IIRC didnt prop war used to cost 150mun? I might be wrong on this, was a long time ago.

5 cp tiger ace. Which is far weaker than the KT in all aspects except for speed, AND it costed a thousand manpower.

The exact same strat as the one in 1.7, except superior due to doctrine ability shifts/buffs. If the KT was changed to the tiger ace right now, t2 terror would still be a very strong strat.

A lot of CPs? 9 CP is the same as the LHS of blitz, 1 cp more than the pershing tree(ignoring how worthless the pershing is atm), and 1 cp more than the jagdpanther tree. Not to mention blitz and armor has to save four-five minutes of manpower to deploy their heavy tank, where as with terror you can deploy it instantly.

Realistically in 1v1s you never deploy more than one tiger or pershing anyways. So the one time call in penalty is not a penalty at all.

More importantly, if tier 2 terror was a powerful strat in 1.7, and it has only gotten buffs since then, how can you possibly claim that it needs the extremely cheap no upfront cost tiger ace to compete?


Interesting attempt, I never thought about the popcap as a solution. According to coh-stats the KT has a popcap of 16 (Churchs have 14 (Croc has 16), the Pershing has 14, the JP 12) maybe if you double the popcap and give it 500mp upfront (with no cost over time) the problem would be solved.

I could definately go with this. If it costed 32 pop cap, then its a very significant chunk of your army and you'd be force to make sacrafices to call it in.

[hashinshin]

I fail to see any reasoning or numbers on how the Tiger Ace was "5 cp tiger ace. Which is far weaker than the KT in all aspects except for speed, AND it costed a thousand manpower."

If the KT does basically the tiger's damage, range, and AoE... and the tiger ace was faster... well... er.... seems like the Ace is pretty much better in every way considering speed is the major problem of the KT.

Additionally, I think we can all agree that the OP was clearly outplayed by the terror player and that the KT was not even a required tank to win the game. The OP's replay is almost PROOF that the KT is perfectly balanced and fine. The only people posting here are Britain fanbois (not to be named) who just want anything nerfed that isn't Britain. Get a new topic because this one is DEAD, the OP is wrong, he got outplayed, the KT is fine.

And before you even TRY, T2 terror was strong... yeah... but this is tier 4 terror. Allies have gotten many buffs (and the British, TRENCHESLOL) and grendier spamming with zeal is not as strong as it used to be. BARs have gotten buffed, rangers have gotten A MASSIVE buff (Lemme say it again, RANGERS GOT A MASSIVE BUFF) and that offsets any percieved advantage of the KT.

[natrapsmai]

You still dont see it do you. Its a free unit, no the 500 manpower income hit doesnt count, because blitz PAY 250 munitions for 900 manpower upfront.

Okay? Apples and oranges. At that point Blitz has gone through its LHS and has stormies stuhs and tigers, and the Terror doc has... zeal. Whoopie do - the King Tiger is a commodity paid in how much the player has to struggle to stay in the game that long. Asking for a higher cost over time isn't necessary... besides, five minutes is a pretty darn long time in this game already.

You have to bring it down with combined arms. You can send one or two units at a time at it and you'll never do a thing - same goes for the Jagdpanther. Immobilize it and then swarm it... and as always in CoH, don't fight a losing battle if you don't have to.

[BiteMeAgain]

For real, KT alone can do jack. If it is left alone, 1 M10 will bring it down. You need massive suport for the KT, and if you engage the KT but not its support, then you deserve to lose. Get rid of its support, make them retreat, KT is a dead fish in the pond.

Concentrate on AI ability of all your infantry, take down shreked grenadiers, bring in a M10 once you dispatch all its support.

[TheWickedGerman]

32 popcap would make KT almost never appear. I sometime have troubles with popcap as its now for KT. A few day ago i send 2 volkssquads in suicide mission, to get the KT. Depending on what your enemy is fielding, you need build so many different units which raises your popcap.

The KT is very easy to take out, just dont attack the KT first, it needs ages to deal damage, moving targets it missing very often. Kill the support and then the fleing KT.

[troglodytejb]

To the original poster:

I think that the real issue here is that you admittedly don't use the KT or the PE. It's easy to complain about a unit when you've never used it and seen the other side. The KT is a meatshield; nothing more. It'll kill stuff every once in a while, but it really serves to draw your fire so that other units can own you. If it's killing a lot of your boys, than you're not microing effectively. My suggestion: play Wehr Terror for several rounds and try it. I know you think it's cheap, but win a few matches with it before you pass judgment.

@ The cost argument:
It's 500 MP because it is a one-time call in. I understand the concerns about initial cost, but it's 9EXP deep for a unit that frankly isn't that good. I could see increasing the upkeep, I guess, but the KT shouldn't be game turning. Either they got EXP by wrecking you, or by getting wrecked by you. If it's the former, they're probably gonna win anyway. If it's the latter, you should have the force to destroy it early game. Even if the game is remarkably even, it comes out so late that it's pretty easy to counter. The only purpose it really serves is supporting vetted, Zeal enhanced Terminator infantry.

[zzSleeper]

I fail to see any reasoning or numbers on how the Tiger Ace was "5 cp tiger ace. Which is far weaker than the KT in all aspects except for speed, AND it costed a thousand manpower."

If the KT does basically the tiger's damage, range, and AoE... and the tiger ace was faster... well... er.... seems like the Ace is pretty much better in every way considering speed is the major problem of the KT.

What are you even talking about? The KT's cannon does more damage, has longer range, bigger splash and better penetration values compared to the tiger gun(ace used tiger gun). KT also has around 750more hp compared to the ace.

Its hilarious that you think the KT is just a slow tiger. When its an anti-tank monster(better than the jadgpanther even) and fairly good vs infantry as well.


Additionally, I think we can all agree that the OP was clearly outplayed by the terror player and that the KT was not even a required tank to win the game. The OP's replay is almost PROOF that the KT is perfectly balanced and fine. The only people posting here are Britain fanbois (not to be named) who just want anything nerfed that isn't Britain. Get a new topic because this one is DEAD, the OP is wrong, he got outplayed, the KT is fine.

And before you even TRY, T2 terror was strong... yeah... but this is tier 4 terror. Allies have gotten many buffs (and the British, TRENCHESLOL) and grendier spamming with zeal is not as strong as it used to be. BARs have gotten buffed, rangers have gotten A MASSIVE buff (Lemme say it again, RANGERS GOT A MASSIVE BUFF) and that offsets any percieved advantage of the KT.

How has BARs been buffed since 1.7? Do tell. Rifles have only been nerfed since 1.7. Reinforcement cost increase, BAR suppression nerf, just to name two.

Rangers do not offset the KT. How does a fix, and yes it is a fix, rangers used to be nearly worthless, on one unit of one tree of the American doctrine mean the strat is now useless and require a nearly free call-in supertank?


For real, KT alone can do jack. If it is left alone, 1 M10 will bring it down. You need massive suport for the KT, and if you engage the KT but not its support, then you deserve to lose. Get rid of its support, make them retreat, KT is a dead fish in the pond.

Concentrate on AI ability of all your infantry, take down shreked grenadiers, bring in a M10 once you dispatch all its support.

I'd like to see a KT die to a single M10, or even two M10s. Learn to micro. :rolleyes:

While you're concentrating on his infantry, the KT is one shotting a riflesquad every other shot. What you think its just gonna sit there and do nothing?

[troglodytejb]

Sleeper,

I agree with you about the changes to allies since 1.7-- the BAR suppression change was a HUGE nerf (one that needed to happen, since SF was ZOMG OP, but still a nerf)... Rangers and AB are awesome now, sure, but vetgren spam > rangerspam, especially with Zeal. I don't think the T2 benefits of terror have changed much at all, honestly. It's just a different playstyle to counter rangerspam or ABspam then it was to counter BAR riflespam.

As for the KT, I'm gonna disagree. It's good, no doubt, but it's certainly not better than the jagd, and I personally preferred the combination of mobility and power the Tiger Ace provided, even though I would have preferred vet to affect it. The KT is just too damn slow, both to aim and move. Yeah, it's super AT, but it's slow enough you can just pull back your tanks and drive well around it to flank. Rangers will have some trouble penetrating, but get enough of them shooting at the back end and it'll go down </innuendo>.

[zzSleeper]

I just dont like the concept of the KT. It can and often do tip the balance of an otherwise even game. The ace was such a great tank if you knew how to use it because it was faster than a freaking sherman.

I dont like the concept of free(or nearly free) uber units that you can never recall if it dies. It might be balanced in 2v2, but in 1v1 it sure as hell isn't.

[Tod]

What are you even talking about? The KT's cannon does more damage, has longer range, bigger splash and better penetration values compared to the tiger gun(ace used tiger gun).

Tiger got bigger splash, has a faster turret and almost twice the accuracy vs. infantry.
KT got 5 more range, deals 27.5 dmg more per shot and definitly penetrates better. It also fires a tad faster and its first shot about 1 second earlier - if it ever gets the target in its sights. But it will never ever one-shot a whole Rifle squad.

Apart from that, I'm sticking to my old opinion - the KT is not combat-effective at all, but because it is so extremly cheap, it becomes extremly cost-effective.

[zzSleeper]

Tiger got bigger splash, has a faster turret and almost twice the accuracy vs. infantry.
KT got 5 more range, deals 27.5 dmg more per shot and definitly penetrates better. It also fires a tad faster and its first shot about 1 second earlier - if it ever gets the target in its sights. But it will never ever one-shot a whole Rifle squad.

Ya my fault about the splash, although it does do more splash damage, albeit at a smaller radius. In addition, its gun does more damage, which by default means it will do even more splash. It can one shot riflesquads because I've seen it do just that.

KT also has an 42 on a turret, which does significant damage to infantry.


Apart from that, I'm sticking to my old opinion - the KT is not combat-effective at all, but because it is so extremly cheap, it becomes extremly cost-effective.

Then you wouldnt mind if it was reverted to the ace then would you?

[Schwarzwald]

the KT didnt destroy you in that replay, you destroyed your self long before. all you needed to do was sticky bomb the KT you never did that though, the m10s were do great damage if they would of kept moving.



Good. Then get better, learn how to deal with KT's, stop blaming the game and blame yourself and improve. That would be the manly thing to do.
+1 good logic iaguz.

[Jaigen]

Then you wouldnt mind if it was reverted to the ace then would you?

i dont i miss my ace :( . the ace has speed and better ai power and its the speed that makes it such a better tank

[Tod]

Then you wouldnt mind if it was reverted to the ace then would you?

I would rather like to have the KT tweaked to be close to the old Ace, meaning it should be less tough but faster and recallable but cost a big amount of MP.

But if I could only decide between Ace and King, I would pick the Ace.

[Tseng_Fox]

Nothing wrong with the king tiger apart from its speed. That needs a buff.

Maybe in exchange for a slight cost? remember though, its hard to last the game to get to that point.

[FLXleGaulois]

32 pop cap !! LOL !

16 is already a lot, don't fight the KT, take map control and your opponent will reach pop threshold quickly. Then as sayed before, focus fire on the infantry around the KT and it will soon be alone with no replacements avalaible.

[scoiatollo]

Let's see, Churchs have 14pop cap and are inferior, the Churchill Croc has 16 and is inferior and both cost more than the KT. Don't you think there's something wrong? There is no downside in getting the KT, 500mp is nothing (especially over time) so while you'll have to face this beast additional to his normal army Allies have to deal with it with what they already have. Maybe 32 is too much but KT should have a downside just like any other call in...

[FLXleGaulois]

Churchill is 3 CP... it's a bit less than 9 don't you think ?

And churchill croc is the perfect AI weapon: chock ability, a flamme thrower+ a gun it's much more deadlier than the KT gun+MG and a KT can't be overrepared (thanks god !)

[Schwarzwald]

KT Can easily be destroyed, in replay he almost destroyed it with 2 M10s, His failure was never sticky bombing the KT, if he had stickied the KT it would of been a sitting duck. M10s also needed to keep circle strafing. this could had been ended early if he stickied bombed it first than attacked with his m10 groups.

But no instead he felt like sticky bombing it in last minute when it was retreating.
KT is a pile of shit in 1v1s and takes to long to get too, langres is am map with alot of medium fuel points all americans have to do is play super agressive control those points and quick tech to call a early win.

[zzSleeper]

Churchill is 3 CP... it's a bit less than 9 don't you think ?

And churchill croc is the perfect AI weapon: chock ability, a flamme thrower+ a gun it's much more deadlier than the KT gun+MG and a KT can't be overrepared (thanks god !)

Pershing is 900 manpower and 14 pop cap, it is nowhere near as good as the KT.

[FLXleGaulois]

Yeh but pershing sucks don't means KT is OP, don't take it as reference. It is armor doctrine that has to be changed to fit better the others not every others doctrines to fit armor doctrine IMO.

[(Undecided)]

Also the Pershing isn't really a super tank (and it wasn't in real life either). It serves the role of a buffed Panther. Something for the axis armor to wail on while the American player uses other tanks and AT to thin the Axis armor.

The King Tiger was a super-tank. It was virtually immortal in tank combat. It main flaw that prevented it from being such a threat to the allies was its piss poor reliability that saw it under repairs more often than that. Combined with low-grade steel the warped easily late in the war, it never got a real chance to shine.

And you're forgetting Allied War Machine.

[IndigoSpyder]

I would rather like to have the KT tweaked to be close to the old Ace, meaning it should be less tough but faster
I know historical accuracy is not that much of a priority in CoH but making a superheavy tank less tough and faster is just plain blasphemy, so I hope Relic is not stupid enough to make the King Tiger as how you would rather have it.

Alot of people here were able to counter/utilize King Tigers, follow their advices and adapt. There's many of them who were able to pull it good, then surely you can do the same.

[(Undecided)]

^^
Tod was arguing a buff for the KT, with a loss of durability to compensate. No need to flame.

I think an increase in combat ability would be useful along with a 500-600mp call-in cost combined with the 500mp loan to compensate.

[IndigoSpyder]

I wasn't flaming.

And almost making a King Tiger tweaked to a Tiger Ace means buffing up? If increase in combat ability to you means tweaking it into Tiger Ace, then I would still say it's blasphemy for a King Tiger. Can't we just leave it as it is?

[Tod]

IndigoSpyder, that L2P comment was really uncalled for...I was not complaining that I can't play well with it, but I just hate it the way it is ingame.

Well, making it as fast as a Tiger would be blasphemy? You know that cross-country it was even a bit faster than a Tiger I? So giving it the same speed would only be more realistic, not less.
And the hydraulic turret could do one 360° turn within 19 (!) seconds when the engine was running at full power. For a WW2 tank that was damn fast. So tell me again making it faster than a snail would be blasphemy.
Also, while being tough, the way it's toughness is displayed is ridicilous - it should have it's own armor type that is hard to penetrate, not 2000 HP. This would also raise its combat value - because it can be repaired in a realistic time - while allowing high powered AT-weapons hitting from the rear actually taking it out - right now you can just sit there with 2 AT guns shooting up your ass.

I didn't say that I wanted to copy the excat stats of the Ace, BTW. I wanted to tweak it to be closer, not the same. I would imagine a tank with the base stats of a Tiger with a better armor type which makes penetration - especially from the front - much harder. KT gun should be tweaked for slightly higher accuracy vs Inf, but apart from that the weaponry should be the same on the KT as before.
Than add a big price tag and make it recallable, but on a very, very high cooldown.

[SuchisLife]

I think anyone that thinks that the KT is OP is missing the big picture. Early game US are stronger and have the advantage, by mid game things start to even up and in late game Wehr are stronger. I use terror when I play against US and by the the time the KT comes out (if playing someone of equal skill) I would expect the US to own atleast 2/3 of the map and have the units inplace to deal with it. If not then they have simply been outplayed. The fact that just before the KT comes out it can look like the US player is in control is just 'smoke and mirrors' because the KT will balance a truly even game or own in a game against a US player that has already lost before it arrives and just does'nt know it.
Lets keep in mind that on the way get a KT for 9 CPs you get 2 other abilities that can be handy but do not cause much if any damage to the enemy costing him MP. I think that the no upfront cost is a payback for MP lost to that point from US mid game abilities that suck the MP out of ya. Perfect example would be straffe that comes out much earlier and in 2 or 3 runs can kill alot more than 900MP.
Part of what makes this game great is that you do not have sides that are carbon copies of each other but do balance out in the end and if you can see it from that point of view then the KT fits in as it is.
As for the replay I watched, he had lost before the KT came out and even if he hadn't he was not even close to being prepaired for it. I saw no OP balance issue in that game.

[Goobers]

Make it cost 500MP and give it a 15min cooldown.

Everyone wins. You get an extra cheap super tough tank without the fuel, and you get a second chance to bring it in should the game go on long enough.


On the Pershing.

Make it fire 50% faster. It may still be flimsy, but by god it will lay the smack down and be worthy of its CP.

[Ano2]

Like it Goobers. I don't think I would hoenstly pay anymore than 500mp since it can't hit anything.

[TheWickedGerman]

Ithink the KT is well balanced, but also I like the idea of paying for it and therefore call it again, just 15min is too long. maybe more MP but short cooldown. I think such a change has to be tested in a beta to balance it right.

[PorT_Lobo]

I think that the no upfront cost is a payback for MP lost to that point from US mid game abilities that suck the MP out of ya. Perfect example would be straffe that comes out much earlier and in 2 or 3 runs can kill alot more than 900MP.

But like Relic will bring down Straf and stay KT like it is now, that logic disapier.... and the main problem with Wher is the upgrades for ALL infantry, that can turn lost games to easy victories because they are very hard to die (near impossible) to die even with strafs and crocos (shreks killing it easy atm).

To Allied armor, the best solution is to make them much more cheap than they are... that would bring more allied tanks to combat what reflects what happened in reality also, worse tanks but much more of them in combat.