Pinning in DoW 2

[Ural375D]

Does anyone know about pinning? It'd be kinda weird having Space Marines crawling on the ground.

[Supernaut]

I think when the unit morale breaks (if it still has it) then they would be more susceptible to being pinned.

However, on the subject of SM, they are genetically enhanced humans, not enhanced meat shields - I think the desire for self preservation would take priority somewhere along the line. :P

[Flonky]

Space Marines would just do something like throw smoke grenades or shoot something, like a tree, into the way to get out of line of fire. if the SMs have to retreat, they do so covering eachother - never showing their backs.

SMs would crawl on the ground if absolutely necessary, but their tactics usually include speed.

[Droids_R]

TT has a mechanic called Pinning, although is fairly rare. It occurs when a unit comes under a barrage of artillery or when they bail for a destroyed transport. The actual fluff effects are open to interpretation depending on the race; it could be as simple as a moment of confusion after a crash.

I'd love if Pinning were in DoW2 in one form or another, since it adds so much more depth to the combat. I'm sure Relic knows that a Space Marine wouldn't be pinned down, and will give them certain resistances or abilities to counter-act it.

[Flonky]

In TT pinning also occurs from sniper fire sometimes don't it? Pinning for some races, such as SM could just mean them diving for cover and firing back. Not cowering in fear and w/e.

[dex_911]

In all honesty, I can't imagine a Space Marine diving for cover and/or crawling on the ground. If marines were to get pinned, I would suggest something like, kneeling on the ground with one knee, maybe using one hand supporting them up.

I think it would look rather ridiculous to have marines crawling on their belly's.

If relic where to incorporate a similar system like CoH, where some units flee from income artillery, I would suggest marines probably would run in a brisk manner, however would maintain squad coherency at all time. Maybe have it, so the Squad Leader or Veteran would notify the others of moving, and they all do so, instead of feeling in all directions, which would be rather 'un-marine' like.

Just my 2 Cents,
Cheers,
dex

[IndigoSpyder]

Space Marines will probably look for the closest cover, kneel and they will be uncontrollable.

[Akranadas]

Pinning doesn't mean crawling on the ground; being pinned could be from a Sniper, a tank or heavy machine gun fire, in which the Space Marines would stay behind cover to avoid being killed out in the open. This is essentially them being pinned, as they can't move out of cover or face the risk of death.

[Unsung Duck]

In this screenshot:

http://thq.vo.llnwd.net/o10/marketing/dawnofwar/screenshots/high_resolution/Assault_jump.jpg

You can see 3 Marines, crouching down behind cover, with a yellow ring round them. The way their crouching down behind the cover suggets they've been pinned and the yellow rings might be an indicator for this.

[Supernaut]

Good find can't believe I didn't notice this before. Also with the Orks firing at them it makes it even more pertinent. :)

As the system works in CoH;
red dots mean no cover.
yellow dots mean light cover.
green dots indicate heavy cover.

So it could be a similar system, not unlike what was also in DoW but with all pieces of terrain and static objects.

[Makenshi]

Very likely; the orks about to be assault by jumping are definitely using heavy weaponry (my bet is, of course, big shotas), so those Sm behing the crates must be ppinned - reason enough to jump some ASM close and personal at those greenskins!

Problem is, heavy fire is coming from the right side of the screen, so I think they'll stay pinned!

Speaking about heavy fire pinning enemies, I hope that IG's heavy weapon teams (if they make it in DoW 2) do a very good job at pinning - if they had it in DoW 1, they'd be built more frequently.

[Xan]

Although it might look a bit ridiculous due to their huge armor, I think SM would, in fact, crawl on the ground if the situation dictated it. Space Marines are not stupid. They're not going to die if they know it's not going to help their brothers. If in the open, they would logically either retreat or present the smallest possible profile. That means crawling on the ground.

[Achronous]

Schoolgirl laughing mode: Space Mares, hihihihihihihihihihihi!
/end

What's the problem with having them crawl? The only thing I see is that they would be slow to jump down compared to other races. The kneeling idea is good, but it doesn't terribly help someone getting shot at.

What about other races? Do you think that Orks would just continue shooting?

I see Eldar just moving away with great speed, or using stealth more often.

[Frankie7508]

The only problem with pinning is that it would make it much harder to engage in melee; however, this would also make assault troops more useful. In one of the previews they said melee would play a larger role, therefore I don't think pinning will play a HUGE role, though I do think it will be in.

[asynd]

just imagine what it would look like seeing an SM crawl. the sheer size of them would make it look like a bear trying to shimmy across the ground to saftey.

I hope they make it where only the units that are being fired at are the ones that get pinned. I remember in COH you could be sending a squad in and if the guy in point got hit with the MG nest first it would immediately cause the ENTIRE squad to be pinned down, even though they had yet to reach the destination. Since I cant exactly see how a full SM squad could get pinned unless its an entire army gunning at it.

be nice to see something along the lines of *individual pinning* '3 guys get pinned when they move up, the remaining members of the squad that haven't been pinned yet are able to flank or try to produce a maneuver that would distract the enemy gunners or something like that.

[dex_911]

I agree with asynd,
I simply don't like the idea of Marines crawling on their belly's because quite honestly, it would look ridiculous.

I know sometimes in battle you would need to crawl to be a small target, however, I have been playing TT for many years now, as well as DoW, and Marines crawling on their belly's is not something I have ever imagined them doing.

I have always imagined Space Marines standing their ground, in typical '300' fashion. :spartaaa: So by making them kneel like shown in the screen shot provided is the best way to go - Still pinned, but not being a coward about it.

cheers,
dex

[Vijil]

If they implement a system whereby a squad wont shoot or move as much when it's under fire (depending on the race and squad type - wouldn't make much difference to marines unless it's starcannons or something), then that would add fun and very realistic depth to the gameplay.

Ie. Oh crap, I need to get my boys to that point but there's too much fire coming from the building on the left. They're well defended and I don't have the time or manpower to take them on now. If I just run on past, I get cut down.

Solution: Fire at them to get their heads down using a good pinning weapon, and run. Certain weapon types like sniper rifles or heavy bolters could be made more effective at keeping enemy heads down. Of course your marines will open fire when fired upon anyway, but if the player gets a sniper or heavy weapons team to seperately engage the building you'll be much better at pinning them. This would only work if the average damage of weapons overall throughout the game is more realistic.

This system is very similar to the morale system and as such could either replace it or be used in concert - cover fire essentially breaks a unit instantly and only for as long as you're firing, whereas actual morale takes longer to break and the break lasts a lot longer when it does happen. Of course marines dont break easy, and being pinned will hardly affect their accuracy, so different races will need different treatment in this regard.

Heh... it also makes balancing even more of a beeeatch than it already is. That said, if you make a game deep enough then no one player will be able to master a side (like real war), and as such you just have to get the rough balances and counters right.

[Cortlendt]

Why possibly a space marine cant crawl? Is this a religious taboo or something?

[Noble]

I think the main reason is that it would look a tad silly Cortlendt. Their armor is so bulky and over the top, I just can't see crawling animations looking any good at all. The animation is superficial though, so you could change it while keeping the same mechanic. Just have them run in a more crouched down position, maybe they are ducking their heads down or helping squad mates who have stumbled.

[dex_911]

For space marines to acknowledge what cowardice is - they must understand what it is and therefore must have suffered cowardice and wimpush behavior in the line of duty.

More like, Marines see enough of IG being cowards, and therefor aspire not to be like your average human being :agree:


Why possibly a space marine cant crawl? Is this a religious taboo or something?

Not really a taboo per say, its just that every picture you see of a Space Marine no matter how badly hurt, he is always seen in a powerful manner. Making them crawl is not something I see a genetically advanced being do. Plus, if marines wanted to be seen as 'small' targets they would not paint their armor in bright colors etc. So Crawling on your belly while wearing bright yellow armor, is going to defeat the purpose no?

[Supernaut]

I don't see what problem people have with SM crawling, you can argue the armour is too OTT and bulky for them to be doing it, but are you forgetting that a SM even without his armour on is huge so its not going to be massive on them unless they are wearing Termie suits, you'd never see a Termie crawling though because... well whats the point haha.

SM are a military force, as such they are trained not only to be merciless killing machines when needed, but also to keep themselves alive. If your in a little crater crouching still makes your a bigger target than being prone. I suppose it is all relative to the cover, you wouldn't lie down behind crates even if pinned because you would still need to look out for the enemy.

Also in the fluff there are many instances of the SM getting pinned, just sitting (lower than crouching) and then using grenades / calling in backup to help them dislodge the enemy. And a fluffy game is a good game. :P

[Ural375D]

What about orks getting pinned?

[Thuraash]

Orks don't exactly have much of a sense of self-preservation... but I'm betting they can still get pinned down. I'm thinking the shootier squads should be a bit easier to pin than Tac SM's, but the melee squads should probably have to take significant losses before getting discouraged if they're charging a position... just because they're freakin' CRAZY!

[Demonhorde]

In Brothers of the snake by dan abnett you have SM getting pinned and diving for cover. And if Dan abnett is not fluffy i dont know what is.

[lonenurgling]

space marines can crawl...i dont see why everyone says no...they are based off of humans...guess what..humans crawl...game over right there....although...it would be very rare, and probably not help full for them to crawl...but i guess is some ways it would be needed, to hide under something or such.

[_vertinox_]

SMs would crawl on the ground if absolutely necessary, but their tactics usually include speed.

Depends on the Legion. Alpha Legion would probaly be fine crawling through the mud or hiding in a pool of swamp water if it might they could sneak up on you to slice your throat.

But since we aren't talking about Chaos or Alpha legion in this game it may not be the best example.

[mysterioustaco]

@ural
orks would just jump up because there would be to much fire on them. i imagine it going like this. "Theys shootin at us boss" "Well letz go bash der hed in boyz"

[Gabriel]

WH40K is supposed to be a cool depiction of warfare, not a realistic one. One of the most nonsensical and yet crucial aspects of that is the ability to have guys with swords charge guys with guns, beat them, and look good doing it; I don't see the point of implementing a mechanic with - as far as I know - little connection to the tabletop game or the fluff to hamper that.

[Busby]

How about this?

Space Marines would make moves to preserve themselves, getting into cover and only shooting the occasional bolter burst.

If charging Orks would start tripping over themselves and separating from the mob, if stationary they would charge the enemy in ones or twos.

Imperial Guardsmen would lose unit cohesion and scatter, some taking cover while the rest stick with the squad leader.

[Thuraash]

Gabriel:
Are you talking about the pinning mechanic?
If so, then I think you need to play CoH, if you haven't yet. Pinning and squad suppression have massive impacts on gameplay, and deepen strategic and tactical options by a whole lot. They also are a crucial part of the new cover system. Implementing it wouldn't make the game any less cool; it would deepen gameplay and make it a whole lot more fun.

[cannonfodder]

Just imagine the Dawn of War intro with pinning.

Space marines jump out of cover, run for two seconds in a brave and heroic assault... then start creeping back behind cover, since there really lotz of orks shooting at them!

I guess I will miss charging into the gunfire and trying to break through.

[Supernaut]

WH40K is supposed to be a cool depiction of warfare, not a realistic one. One of the most nonsensical and yet crucial aspects of that is the ability to have guys with swords charge guys with guns, beat them, and look good doing it; I don't see the point of implementing a mechanic with - as far as I know - little connection to the tabletop game or the fluff to hamper that.

Go read the fluff if you want a solid iron link to units being suppressed and pinned. It happens more often than some of the SM fanboys would like to think haha. Also in the TT pinning the enemy and flanking is a very common manevuer, a lot of dice rolls never hurt anyone. :)

I don't think you know much about WH40k to be frank.

[Thuraash]

Dang, Supernaut. Dropping the TT-Illiteracy card... that's harsh! Though you're right... people need to actually read the fluff, if for no other reason than to stop under-informed people from making judgments about gameplay improvements based on some mistaken perception of what WH40K is about.

By the way, even if there was no "iron link," and SMs were totally unpinnable in the fluff, I wouldn't care and would still prefer Relic implementing the mechanic anyway, simply because it makes the game that much deeper.

[Achronous]

Well, DoW 1 is not that fluffy, so DoW 2 needs not be either, even when we see some aspects of it moving towards TT...

[Supernaut]

Dang, Supernaut. Dropping the TT-Illiteracy card... that's harsh! Though you're right... people need to actually read the fluff, if for no other reason than to stop under-informed people from making judgments about gameplay improvements based on some mistaken perception of what WH40K is about.I kill posts because I care ;P

Though I agree with Achronous, I did enjoy DoW immensely even though its not exactly fluffy... or TT for that matter. But having recently installed the Dawn of Warhammer 40k: Firestorm mod - which is much closer to TT, I am loving that, like seriously. Physically loving it. :P

[_vertinox_]

Space Marines aren't suicidal nut jobs like Khorne Berserkers.

Sure they'll make some amazing brave charges into the enemies guns but they'll use strategy and superior firepower to overcome the enemy.

In fact, in that Warhammer 40K for the DS, cover fire and over watch is the key strategy to winning with the Ultramarines.

Now Ultramarines are a bit more disciplined and coordinated than most chapters fluffwise, but most other SM chapters seem to follow the same attitude.

Sure a SM may go berserk when he's been betrayed or his best bud has been killed, but their strategy is best summed up as general Patton said "You don't win wars by dieing for your country, you win wars by making the other guy die for his!"