[2.301] MG Suppression

[SgtWilson]

Just thinking about the number of squads that can be rendered next to useless by a single, cheap MG and wondering if the buffs made in 2.3xx were really necessary, i.e.:

2.300 HMGs (i.e. Vickers, Browning, .50 cal,mg42 HMG) increased 1.15 suppression vs tp_infantry_soldier.
2.300 HMGs have increased suppression area (from 12 to 15m)
2.300 MG42 LMG suppression modifer to tp_infantry and tp_infantry soldier increased from 1.0 to 1.15
2.305 Suppression on some HMG and LMGs increased further vs tp_infantry_soldier.

Does anyone else think that these buffs: a) were necessary at all? and b) make MGs OP?

Also, does anyone know exactly what the changes were in 2.305 "Suppression on some HMG and LMGs increased further"?

[daroach1414]

Does anyone else think that these buffs: a) were necessary at all? and b) make MGs OP?

a) Yes, blobs were too prevalent. They still kinda are, but mgs were always meant as a anti blob tool, and now they are actually one. Pre 3.0 patch, against PE, the american MG was basically worthless because it didnt suppress shit and the PGs just basically walked though the fire and laughed. Now the american HMG has a chance to suppress them. Same thing for the wehr mg towards Brit infantry.

b) No, they are still very beatable. You just cant run straight into one and expect to beat it. You have to use some tactics.

[Sturmtruppen]

all the LMGs got a buff somewhere in the beta-patch, includes alot stuff like turret upgrades

[Ano2]

I would say that Brits should perhaps only be supressed in the second burst. Getting supressed in the first burst doesn't even allow to get out of the area unlike the US.

[Monty86]

IMO the suppression buff went too far. It's ridiculous on maps like Sturzdorf when a Wehr player can simply spam MG's into the houses outside your base and all your troops do in responce is fall to the ground and die. Yes you can build a mortar/sniper/whatever and it will counter the MG's...eventually. In the meantime the Wehr has capped the map and has God knows what waiting for you. This is also a problem on the new Vierrres Ridge - there is nothing to stop a lone MG42 wandering up to your HQ and setting up in front of it. When you're Brits this really hurts, since you probably have only the recon unit + Lt or Tommie squad at the time. Again, this hands early map control to the Wehr.

Wehr MG's should have suppression reduced to something more manageable at 0 vet, only after vet 1 should the suppression be as it currently is. This would stop them completely negating your entire army of rifles/tommies with a single cheap unit. It can be as good as it likes after vet 1, since then Brits and Americans have counters to it and the whole thing balances out.

[Sutr]

people people. Mg supressing blobs has been the way of coh since 1.0. Hell one of my main complaints was that mgs were so useless in the expansion and I'm happy to see it go back to the way it should be.

[Tod]

This would stop them completely negating your entire army of rifles/tommies with a single cheap unit.

Have you played vanilla CoH? Because this is what CoH was all about back then - the size/cost of your army could be completely negated by superior use of a much cheaper force. This isn't C&C where you just send your most expensive units at the enemy and whoever got more wins.

[Monty86]

I see your point about superior usage of inferior forces - that is indeed why good players are good etc.

But my point is that you do not require "superior use" - you simply need to spam them into houses or park them outside your opponents base. Early on this is nigh-on uncoutnerable on certain maps.

[Leobardis]

Just thinking about the number of squads that can be rendered next to useless by a single, cheap MG...

in this way, gameplay = realism

From my understanding, tp_infantry_soldier is primarily used for PGs and Tommies.

So yes, they were necessary. prior to the buff, PGs could not be surpressed (and any level of defensive meant surpression NEVER happened). You would rarely even see a PG getting pinned, let alone surpressed. This lead to a horrible amount of blobbing.

I think it is appropriate that tommies are surpressed in the first volley without a lt present.

[Tod]

Monty, normally just spamming MGs leads to severe loss of mobility, as you need to set up one before the other can move or you will just be caught with your pants down and shot dead. If he manages to get MGs into position close to your base, it means that they walked all the way there. What where you doing while they did so? Attacking a moving MG will force it to retreat most of the time.

What might be problem against Brits is the viability of Piospam, allowing the Wehr player to compensate for their loss of capping power due to heavy MG usage. A well-placed mortar pit will make a whole area no-go for MGs though.

[sparcKy']

only thing i hate is the vickers MG sup rate its crazy + the rang on the damn thing is bleh

[Widowmaker1]

Well, Wh/Pe US Armoured Company tree are hit mostly by these changes due to the ever present comandoes/fireup/Heroic charge troops floating everywhere that seem to negate the effect of suppression whenever they need it...which is why you'll rarely see HMGs etc after tier 1-2 being built...plus the vehicles that overcome them in later tier 3-4

[sighman]

Mgs are easy to take out and if they do place it in a house, just get a sniper and bike to spot for it. If they are out in the open, its extremely easy on maps like Angoville. In fact, IMO its too easy to flank them on some maps such as Verrieres because of the amount of hedges in between the centre where most of the fighting goes on.

[BoDyBaG2224]

Mgs are fine, if you can't beat it then that is a skill issue not a unit issue. MGs stop blobs so the way to negate that from happening is don't blob. I've faced MG spam and it fails due to the severe lack of capping power, and the immobility of the MGs.

[Splitmonkey]

Problem is 2 tom squads kill a mg while supressed:(

[ZeroTwo]

I just got out of a game as PE against an American WSC start.

PZGR eat dirt at lightning speed the instant one of those .30's starts firing. It's freakin' rediculous, you can't go anywhere near it, even for a second.

The patch must have loaded those guns with angry bee bullets that cause immense fear now. They are no normal bullets.

Bee bullets.

[Guardsman Yoshi]

@ZeroTwo

I guess you were never on the receiving end of a MG42 as Americans?

[zzSleeper]

I just got out of a game as PE against an American WSC start.

PZGR eat dirt at lightning speed the instant one of those .30's starts firing. It's freakin' rediculous, you can't go anywhere near it, even for a second.

The patch must have loaded those guns with angry bee bullets that cause immense fear now. They are no normal bullets.

Bee bullets.

This reminds me of something, oh thats right, its exactly the same way for riflemen vs the MG42.

Wow, you have to flank a MG! I mean thats really asking PE players to do too much. Nevermind that they have supermobile MGs that can just charge a 30cal head on and kill it. Nevermind that they get mortar in a car that basically invalidates everything from WSC.

Heaven forbid you have to flank to kill a MG.

[ZeroTwo]

@zzSleeper

It's hard to flank an MG in a large stone building with massive, sweeping fields of view, while friendly units move around it blocking any safe path through cover leaving you the only option of exposing yourself in negative cover in front of an MG if you even hope to try throw a nade at it.

(Semois!)

And what does this thread even have to do with flanking? I thought we were talking about suppression.

Don't assume I am just bitching, I'm telling you about an experience I had relating to this issue. My PZGR now go down faster than a cheerleader at a kegger.

Keep your flame to yourself.

@ Guardsman Yoshi

I try my hardest never to play Americans, ever so I managed to avoid experiencing that particular nightmare when it was still in play in it's full glory. Don't think I forgot about it though.

[zzSleeper]

@zzSleeper

It's hard to flank an MG in a large stone building with massive, sweeping fields of view, while friendly units move around it blocking any safe path through cover leaving you the only option of exposing yourself in negative cover in front of an MG if you even hope to try throw a nade at it.

(Semois!)

And what does this thread even have to do with flanking? I thought we were talking about suppression.

Don't assume I am just bitching, I'm telling you about an experience I had relating to this issue. My PZGR now go down faster than a cheerleader at a kegger.

Keep your flame to yourself.

No you are just bitching. What building are you talking about on semois where its impossible to draw fire with one squad and flank with another.

[drChengele]

ZeroTwo, I would wholeheartedly sympathise with your plight versus MGs in buildings, if it weren't for the fact that Panzer Elite get the BEST EFFING MORTAR IN THE GAME.

Panzergrenadier squads cost less than riflesquads, have less upkeep than riflesquads, and tech earlier. .30cal has a shorter range than an MG42. This means you can flank .30cals with PGs much easier than you can flank an MG42 with riflemen. An MG in a building is very easy to take down with two or three PG squads if you know how. A supported MG in a building would perhaps suggest you need to support your PGs with some support weapons of your own.

The purpose of this thread is lost on me. Yes, MGs suppress massed infantry! Perhaps you could try dealing with it by... wait for it... not massing infantry?

MG suppression is one of the best things in Company of Heroes, period. Been so since day one. Its presence alone makes for half the game's tactical diversity.

Don't blob. Use tactics. Cover. Flanking. Support your troops. Then you will find that MGs are very easy to take out.

[SgtWilson]

Thanks for the responses guys, a wide range of views as always.

My own view (from the Brit perspective) is that MG's suppress just a bit too quickly (as Ano2 said), making the deployed mobile MG very difficult to defeat with infantry alone, unless you can approach the MG position from two directions at just about 180 degrees from each other. You can't even have one soldier put a foot in the arc of fire for even one second while the MG is firing at another target, even if the target is at the other end of the firing arc.

If you don't have the luxury of two wide-spread approach routes, its down to the good 'ol Mortar Pit or the Bren Carrier, for the Brit player at least.

[drChengele]

You can't even have one soldier put a foot in the arc of fire for even one second while the MG is firing at another target, even if the target is at the other end of the firing arc.

SgtWilson, that is simply not true. Try using MG42s versus an accomplished flanker. Brits are not an easy army to flank with, but they are designed so they don't NEED to flank. Advance with two or three squads from cover, try to draw fire with one of them, and keep an LT out in the back. Even if all three squads are suppressed, they will kill the MG. Another plus side is that accompanying Volks have a low damage output vs. Tommies so your squads will survive for a long time while dropping the health of that MG.

Alternatively, upgrade one squad to Riflenades and toss a smoke grenade to cover your advance.

The only real problem Brits have dealing with MG42s is the absolute early game, before the first mortar pit. After that, it's Commandoes/Stuarts/Churchills/25pdrs.

[SgtWilson]

DrChengele,

I've never had the nerve to keep squads under MG fire for too long if my first volley (or sniper shot) did'nt take out the gunner. If it needs two/three squads plus Lt to defeat it, that just shows the power that an MG42 can have. Beginner Wehr players - take note! I've never been a fan of Riflenades (I mostly use the Bren upgrade), but I'll try this out next game, along the lines you suggested.

Agreed its an early game issue, at least for Brits anyway.

SgtW

[drChengele]

I think I have a replay where I get expertly trashed by a higher level Brit player on Angoville in the first few minutes. I try using dual MGs but suppressed Tommies just crawl behind haystacks and keep on shooting. Poof. Dead MG. I'll dig around, I just hope it's 2.301 version.

Losing your nerve and retreating early might be exactly where you are going wrong. Leave your squad there, so what if it's pinned? It's buying time for other squads to get into position. A bit of advanced advice would be that suppression does not work as a cone, rather it extends like a circle in a certain radius from the squad being shot at. Use this to your own advantage. Noone expects you to flank with Tommies as with Riflemen, but if you keep your squads moderately spaced, you will be able to avoid having more than one of your squads pinned at once. More than one can get suppressed, but unless your squads are literally bunching up, a single MG cannot keep more than one Tommy squad pinned at a time. Remember that!

[Splitmonkey]

Yup 2 tom squads suppressed kill a mg from the front or a bren carrier can beat a mg in a shootout

Mostly accounts for t1=suck vs brits since the main asset is bypased so easilly

[Skyline Pete]

I love riflenades versus MG42s. Even when pinned the squad can still launch their grenades so it's a gamble for the 42, either keep shooting and hope they miss or get out of there and set up somewhere else.

[ZeroTwo]

Oh my god you guys hate the Panzer Elite! Make so many assumptions!

My units were never blobbed, they were working in duos most of the time, and I fell them back to be supported by mortars and light armour when I encountered the MGs. I never actually lost a unit to a .30 the whole game, it was the combination of snipers, .30s pinning, and eventually infantry squads that started killing units.

The guy I played against was good. I did not just roll him with PZGR spam, tank rushes, and lulz. Christ the replay isn't even that good but if I take much more crap for being a whiner or a PE blobber I'm going to have to post it! XD

Again, and for the last time, I am not complaining. I do think they suppress a bit fast but if that's how they're supposed to work I'll deal with it like a man with bombs and grenades and fire... lots of fire... I'm glad to see these weapons brought back to the forefront as something dangerous and not to be trifled with. It gives me something else to think about while playing, it ups the challenge, and I like that. There are plenty of effective tools and strategies for dealing with machineguns in buildings and deployed in cover in the field, it was just a surprise to really feel the fear with the new suppression in place.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go and cut the crusts off of 100 dirt sandwiches. Panzer Grenadiers hate crusts.

[Compel]

The only thing I'd really like to change about machine guns is allowing you to click on enemy ones to see their fire arc.

That and the possibility of needing to hit the majority of a unit before it's surpressed. It annoys me no end when I'm flanking a MG and get a *little* bit too close to its fire arc with a single guys sole of his left boot strays that little bit inside its firing arc making my whole flanking squad drop to the ground.

[forthefries]

thats especially annoying with eng flamers if they see the muzzle flash they seem to hit the dirt. :alarm:

[purpleseed]

@Zerotwo

Sorry, but I have seen PE Grans get suppressed by a HMG, crawl up to the MG gunner and kill him, seriously. After that I lost interest in infantry armor. Even suppressed they could do it.

@Splitmonkey

Two Tommies cost what close to 1000mp win a shootout against 260mp MG42 squad?

[draje175]

no, we dont need to nerf mgs.... NO.... :cry: