Weapons in DoW2

[Cortlendt]

I got the impression that weapons are standardized in TT. Does this mean that a heavy bolter on a vehicle and a heavy bolter in the hands of the marine is exactly the same bolter and has same stats. (Is accuracy modified by the wielder?)

Do you really think that DoW2 will/should have this feature?
I think its great to have it.

[Fightingfirst]

Accuracy in TT is modified by the character or the crew of the vehicle's ballistic skill(BS). A heavy bolter on a vehicle does exactly the same damage as a heavy bolter in a marines hands. I don't know if there will be standerdized weaponary yet because as far as I know relic hasn't said any thing on this subject, but I hope it is implemented because it will be easier for players to identify the exact strength and weaknesses of the weapon whether it is on a vehicle or in a foot soldier's hands.

[jon_the_d]

in DOW, weapons of the same name did different damage depending on who ro what was firing/wielding it. This was explained as taking into account their accuracy, so that a commander with a bolt pistol would be such a good shot that when he did hit it would hit somewhere vital and critical, explaining why his bolt pistol does more DPS than an assault marine for example. weapons accuracy and damage is all set for the individual weapon in the lua files. so whilst several types of unit might use a standard bolter /heavy bolter. those on vehicles or special units would have a separately named and configured weapon that would have different stats.

As DOW relies on DPS as a major game mechanic and balancing factor. I can imagine them implementing the same system in DOW 2.

So although you might think the commander and the assault marine are both firing bolt pistols, they will do very different damage.

think of it like this. not only does the commander have a better chance of hitting, but his hits will begood hits (vital organs etc.) with fewer hits to extremities (scratches and fleshwounds etc.) This is why he can do more damage with what is actually the same weapon (although the way they've coded it it is technically a different weapon to represent this improved damage)

[Blackheart]

Problem here is imperial guard weapon crews... an imperial guard weapon crew with a single heavy bolter should be just as effective as a single heavy bolter from a space marine devastator/chaos space marine havoc/sister of battle retributor squad with four of them (thus being four times as powerful)?

[Versian]

There are other things to realize.

IG HW crews are entrenched and thus have (if not, at least should have) a defensive bonus than a Space Marine who is standing around. In that specific case, the IG HW crews provide a more defensive role than Offensive as in the SM devastator, CSM havok squads.

Are they 4 times as powerful? well... I guess. They do have accuracy penalties (or at least should have) since they are holding the heavy weapon as oppossed to having it planted in the ground like the IG do.

[Blackheart]

IIRC, in the TT marines with heavy bolters are probably MORE accurate because of a higher BS rating. I might be wrong with this, though. And then the Space Marines would probably have equal or better defense anyway, because of their armor.

[Pseudonymn]

Super Soldier + Power Armor >> Humie Guardsmen + Flak Jackets. That's why the IG HW teams have to set up in fixed positions.

[Mirage Knight]

In TT, a Bolter wielded by a Space Marine Tactical does the same damage and has the same range as a Bolter wielded by a Scout or even a Guardsman. The only difference is the accuracy of the individual using said Bolter.

One of DoW's biggest faults is a lack of consistency with regard to weapon range, rate of fire and damage - especially amongst weapons of the same type. I hope DoW2 will change that.

[nick2512]

All space marine units have Ballistic Skill of 4 so all of them should hit with the same accuracy unless we're talking about hardened commanders who have Ballistic Skill of 5.

Bolters should deal the same kind of damage as every other types of bolters except Heavy Bolters, Vulcan Mega-Bolters etc.

[Corwin of Amber]

Since this time DoW II won't have to rely on simple solutions like DPS, but a real calculated projectile accuracy every weapon could have a standarised damage output. The only real difference would be how good marksmanship skills the unit has compared to the distance at which the target is located. A standing SM force commander with his master-crafted boltgun would hit easily in his weapons range. A running IG guardsman would have more trouble trying to shoot accurately than a running space marine.

Besides - how about that in close range all weapons should be 100% effective no matter who uses them? As long as the unit stands firmly on the ground and does not suffer a morale break, not too hard to shoot a target next to you.. And even in the 41st millenium it's not a simple task assaulting a fortified posiotion, simply because you'll get caught in the enemies fire before you can "get it done" at meelee combat.

[jon_the_d]

calculated projectiles would be awesome, from my own perpsective of a desire for realism and unpredictability. But I get shot down a lot by those people who poin tout how this will affect balance.

If you implement projectiles like any shooting game, then of course there will be chances, allbeit small, that you get a lucky headshot, or some other critical hit.

as an ex TT player, and a realist. I like the idea that there is a random element to it. I like the idea that once in a hundred battles some lucky squad of guardsmen could actually take out a squad of chaos marines which has slaughtered them in the other 99. I like this. it brings unpredictability, it forces back up plans and contingencies, most of all, it can completely throw a spanner in the works of your meticulously calculated plan. Just as war should be able to do. With such unpredictability, a great commander will be one who can cope with the unpredictable.

A lot of RTS players disagree, and complain about balance. They want it to be more robotic and clinical. DPS etc. a victory precisely calculated by units stats.

I like to leave things to fate, and chance. If I lose sometimes because some lucky shot turned the battle around, so what, it's part of the game and it makes it more interesting. Besides, I probably should have planned better to cope with the unexpected.

If they can implement projectiles as the damage determining system, I think it could be awesome.

[Corwin of Amber]

Does a basilisk artillery barrage or orbital bombarmdent hit EXACTLY where you want it to? No. Even now the DPS system is a random factor. I think the randomness of projectiles, to some degree, not gurdsmen killing bloodthirsters on the mass with a bit of luck ;), would be an interesting and not-gamebreaking option. Hell, I'd like to see real shots to be rolled except just a bunch of fireworks.

[Noble]

I suggest a separate thread for discussing whether or not random factors have a place in RTS games, or more specifically, in DoW2. Right now there are two threads (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=193130) who have veered a bit off topic (not necessarily a bad thing) and are beginning to discuss this same subject.

Rather than have two threads discussing this, lets have a single new thread for it, and leave this and the other thread to their original topics.

[Blackheart]

Accuracy is modified by the character or the crew of the vehicle's weapon(s) skill (WS).

.... no, WS is for melee attacks and melee weapons IIRC. BS-- Ballistics Skill-- represents accuracy with ranged attacks. So bolters would use BS. I remember this because Battle Sisters have the same ranged capabilities as Space Marines (they have equivalent BS stats) but are weaker in melee combat (lower WS stat). So technicly, a large Battle Sister squad is more deadly at range than a Space Marine squad, as they have the same BS but more bolters to aim at the enemy due to size (obviously, SM heavy weaponry more than make up for this much of the time).

[Mirage Knight]

The other thing is that Battle Sisters have a lower strength and toughness rating than Chaos / regular Space Marines.

[Jeopardia_Ferdy]

In TT, a Bolter wielded by a Space Marine Tactical does the same damage and has the same range as a Bolter wielded by a Scout or even a Guardsman. The only difference is the accuracy of the individual using said Bolter.

Thats right as long as just look at the damage dealt by a hit from a bolter, but a Marine with a bolter would hit more often than an Orc so the DPS or DPT (Damage Per Turn) of a Marine would be higher ;)

[Fish Of Doom]

but the dps mechanic in dow is flawed. it follows a constant "connection" in which damage is dealt each second, with an irrelevant firing animation giving the impression of correct damage mechanics, which is not how stuff works. with a proper shot system damage would be measured by each round, beam, blast or burst. in that respect accuracy determines not the damage itself, but how many of the shots fired will hit. the damage is always the same, what changes is if damage is dealt or not.

[Versian]

To people who want each shot to be calculated. Look at Supreme Commander. Every single shot is calculated. From the tiniest robot to the gajillion guns on the most advanced units.

The result? The game required a monster PC to play. Despite optimization, it is the thing most people complained about.

I'm sorry, but I just don't want my computer to grind to a halt when I have 5 squads of Space Marines raining hell on the enemy with bolter fire.

Look at Space Marines now in DoW1. Try counting every single round fired by one squad. Yeah...

[Blackheart]

which is why I would prefer something akin to company of Heroes-- only missed shots have trajectory. Hits essentially home on their targets.

[Cortlendt]

SupCom has a much larger scale. Dual and Quad Core CPUs can calculate each shot I think without any trouble to frame rates. SupCom uses UI an Simulations threads and is choppy mostly on single-core cpus.

[Fish Of Doom]

also, the bolters in DOW are crap, a bolter fires at most at the same rate as the DOW autocannon. it has a 30 round clip for god's sake!