"Rapid Fire" Weapons

[Mirage Knight]

In TT, Bolters, Lasguns, Plasma Guns, NecronGauss Flayers and Tau Pulse Rifles and Kroot Rifles are classed as Rapid Fire weapons.

The Rapid Fire rule states that a Rapid Fire weapon may fire twice at targets up to a range of 12" away. If the unit with the weapon hasn't moved, it may shoot once at targets between 12" away and the weapon's maximum range. The weapon may not fire if the unit is assaulting another.

How to implement this in DOW2...I was thinking that Rapid Fire weapons would be unable to fire on the move but could fire the moment the weapon's owner stopped. In addition, the weapon could use a 50% damage reduction modifier or armour penetration reduction modifier when its target is between the midpoint of its range and its maximum range.

All perfectly doable in COH at present :)

[Deacon412]

This would be interesting but a very big change....mirage do you think itd be good to have just because its a TT rule??

[TESB]

DowXp has something akin to this. As far as i know they have the fire rate increased at close range.

[Mirage Knight]

Derge:

TT Rapid Fire weapons are akin to semi-automatic rifles or similar weapons in real life. They can be fired effectively when advancing at close range or for aimed single shots at greater distances. Their bulk and low rate of fire (equal to how fast as you can pull the trigger and reload) generally precludes firing on the move - especially at long range if you intend to hit your target.

[Deacon412]

im all for it, i just had trouble comprehending why..but when you put it that way it makes sense to have

[Mirage Knight]

Trust me, I don't want stuff in just because it's TT. Frag Grenade rules are a good example of something in TT I do NOT want to see. With a couple of exceptions, In TT all they do is negate cover: No damage whatsoever.

Given the nature of Bolt Guns and Pulse Carbines and all that, the Rapid Fire rule is something that actually makes sense - hence the suggestion :)

[Eisenhorn538]

Ok,

1. Just because TT has it doesn't mean DoW needs something similar

2. Just keep rapid fire weapons like they are in CoH (MP44, MP40, BAR etc.)

What I would like to see though is something where you can switch weapons between automatic and single shot. Not for all the weapons obviously but lasguns would be one of the reasons why I think it's needed.

[Fightingfirst]

@Mirage Knight: Are you saying they can't rapid fire on the move or they can't shoot at all on the move? If they can't shoot on the move then thats just pointless, its not like a bolter is going to hinder a marines whilst he's running apart from a slight accuracy modifier. If you are basing this on table top, how comes marines can move and still shoot. I don't mind it implemented if when units are standing still and enemy unit gets in a certain range they can switch to rapid fire.

[Imrix]

Also, rapid fire weapons generally aren't semi-automatic weapons, so much as weapons that can be fired in single, accurate shots or sustained bursts at close range. Bolters, for example, are known to be settable to single shots, fully automatic fire or four-round bursts.

[Ap0k]

Just give them a reduced rate of fire and/or an accuracy penalty beyond a certain range while moving. Stand still and reap the benefits of a better RoF/Accuracy, or move in and do a bit less damage compared to dedicated assault weaponry, but put yourself in a better tactical position.

For Eisenhorns benefit, MP44's and MP40's are not rapid fire weapons in CoH. They are assault weapons, and are statted accordingly (not so awesome at long range, but lower accuracy penalties for firing while moving and hideous damage up close).

[Mirage Knight]

Also, rapid fire weapons generally aren't semi-automatic weapons

Oh I certainly agree on that - but according to a reliable source, GW is redoing the description for Rapid Fire weapons in the 5th edition rulebook so that weapons with Rapid Fire profile are described as being futuristic semi-automatic rifles (or similar).

In this instance, Bolters, Lasguns and Pulse Carbines function like M1 Garands and G43 rifles - weapons that based on my readings generally necessitated stopping to achieve accurate, effective fire.

The accuracy reduction when firing on the move is also workable...say 50% of what the weapon's accuracy would normally be?

[Fish Of Doom]

just one thing to note about firing on the move. have you ever tried aiming anything while running at full speed to avoid getting shot? you can't. thus, i'd propose that rapid fire be implemented in the realistic way, of lowering both accuracy AND rate of fire, since you're not going to spray and pray while your gun flails wildly as you pump your arms(unless you're an ork). you're going to shoot when you get a good line of fire and can stabilize yourself, the continue running like mad lest you get a nice clean hole in your grey matter.

[s33k]

I like the idea alot, the farther away the rate of fire goes down, and the closer they are, the rate increases.

The only thing I wonder is, if the rate of fire is increased at close range, seeing as there is CC in DoW, would the transition from rapid fire to close combat flow smoothly? Cause there is no CC in CoH, and yes Relic is using a modified Havoc engine, for some reason that just occurred to me that something like that might slow up or cause problems with the CC system DoW has.

[HiveMind]

Depends. If basic weapons are as pathetic as they are in DoW, definitely. Right now it takes a full squad of 8 marines to just dent the enemy armour and heavy weapons are the only real source of damage. If this gets changed so that bolters and like actually deal damage, rapid fire would be overkill and make such weapons too good. However, if they stay so inferior to heavy weapons, rapid fire would be awesome. It would make transports more useful, because you can get into rapid fire range where you deal double damage without being ripped up by heavy weapon fire beforehand.

[Darkbladecr]

Although then it would be weird if you had a whole army of only rapid weapons and you were getting attacked with raptors. If you Micromanage your troops will not fire? I would say this idea should apply for some weapons but not for all.

[HiveMind]

The default weapon for all basic troops except Guardians are rapid fire and get double shots when within half range. There are elite units with rapid fire weapons and rapid fire special weapons (mainly plasma guns), but they're fairly rare. Rapid fire weapons can still fire at 100% effectiveness up to their normal full range.

[Blade44]

MK, many advances in weapon design have occured since world war 2. Specifically free floating barrels on assault rifles. Systems such as the S.I.R. rail system have been proven to be fairly accurate even while firing on full auto while moving at a decent speed. Not a full out run mind you, but at least faster than walking. So maybe based on this it would be better to implement reduced speed while firing. Or maybe different speed settings either separate or connected to the stance. Of course these systems wouldnt work as well on heavier munitions if thats what your talking about, im not quite sure exactly which types of weapons your talking about.

[Vrugar Gutslice]

The default weapon for all basic troops except Guardians are rapid fire and get double shots when within half range. There are elite units with rapid fire weapons and rapid fire special weapons (mainly plasma guns), but they're fairly rare. Rapid fire weapons can still fire at 100% effectiveness up to their normal full range.

Ork Shootas fit into this category now too, most recent codex changed the profile of the shoota from rapid fire to assualt.

[Drunkspleen]

my impression is that the 2 shots at 12" 1 shot at max range was to represent accuracy more than anything, you aren't literally only shooting 1 or 2 bullets

[Octopus Rex]

Yeah, I agree with Drunkspleem almost, but I was thinking more that they were taking the time to aim at the larger distances, but could fire off two quick rounds similar accuracy at shorter range. Don't think it's so much to do with technology.

[jon_the_d]

I concur, in TT it's about lining up the shot. in DOW2 this could be implemented so that targets beyond a certain range must be fired at at a reduced rate of fire, and possibly reduced damage (loss of momentum/energy), however I think that the range that these penalties start to take effect should be anything beyond what we now would consider normal range. I won't go into it here but I think ranges in general should be increased, adn incorporating this at the same time would be a good idea.

"rapid fire weapons" could get a rate of fire bonus when stationary, but I don;t think very close range should have a bonus, otherwise everyone will just try to run as close togethe ras possible, and shoot each other form a metre apart. sounds silly.

instead, considering "max rate of fire" to be what they fire in "normal range" (pretty much what we're used to now) and anything beyond that at a reduced rate of fire, seems to be the best way to encourage ranged units to maintain some range at least.

[Mirage Knight]

Octopus: Seeing that Bolt Pistols do the same damage as Bolters and that both can fire two shots at 12" while stationary, that observation would be correct :)

[DrRansom]

This is a good idea, gameplay wise, it allows an shooty army to actually get some kills in before CC. If you're limited in the number of marines you can have, you'll need all the advantages you can get. And if ranged combat isn't an option, then you're loosing something as part of the game.

[Octopus Rex]

MK - so what's the difference between a bolt pistol and a bolter?

[Vrugar Gutslice]

@Octopus Rex: What besides the fact that a bolt pistol can only be fired at 12" or under where a bolter can fire at 24" and under.

[Corwin of Amber]

Dawn of War is more dynamic than TT could be, it realtime so you don't count the shots, if it's a rapid fire weapon it will stop shooting when it's out of ammo, why make it too complicated?

[Vrugar Gutslice]

@Corwin of Amber: It's not TT, but the TT values can give a good idea of how fast a weapon should be firing. Problem is that rapid fire weapons (especially in a possible DoW conversion) wind up in the situation where they either fire one or two rounds/bursts depending on the distance they're away from the enemy. And don't say just make it two otherwise it invalidates certain assault weaponry such as Shootas or Storm Bolters.

[Blackheart]

This is easy. In the Essence Engine, there is moving cooldown modifiers and range-based cooldown modifiers. At medium-short range, the weapon could have a better rate of fire, and it could have a reduced rate of fire while moving. These are already implemented in Company of Heroes, I see no reason why they'd not be in Dawn of War 2, which is more advanced than CoH.

[Mirage Knight]

Octo:

Current TT rules state that Bolters can fire once per round at a target between 12" and out to to its max range of 24" and twice if the target is up to 12" away. Bolters basically have longer range :D

Slight digression but from what I've heard, pistol rules are changing in the 5th Edition Rulebook so that they're treated as assault weapons, being able to fire once per round regardless of whether the firer is moving or not. This means a Bolt Pistol would have the benefit of firing on the move without penalties - but Bolters would have double range and a comparatively higher damage potential at close range.

[Elukka]

I think that instead of trying to make DoW an interpretation of TT, it should be made an interpretation of the 40k universe. Just like tabletop is.

[Blackheart]

This still makes sense even in a real interpretation of the w40k universe-- a Marine is going to take fewer, more carefully aimed shots at longer range. At medium range, he'll take more, still fairly well aimed shots. At short range, if he's not in melee, he'll still use decently aimed shots, but he's more likely to shoot more often, due to the nature of close range combat. Even moreso for guardsmen, tau, etc... but not quite as much for Orks, who probably shoot less at short range and instead figure out a way to get to choppin'.

[Eisenhorn538]

I would prefer them to fire as often as possible at all times (since we don't have to worry about running out of ammo) and then just make them accurate at close range and less accurate at long.

And just because they are at long range doesn't mean they'll be taking fewer shots. Solid Ork and IG strategies include laying down as much fire as possible from the furthest distance possible. They won't be aiming at anything in particular.

[Blackheart]

1: Your preference makes little sense. Even though they have (because of ease of play rather than fluff) unlimited ammunition, that doesn't mean that they have to act like it, or that they should act like it.

2: Which is only a good reason for them to make differences between various factions and units, and you might note that I specifically said that already :P

[Eisenhorn538]

@Blackheart

1: It makes perfect sense. In a warzone you don't have the time to aim each shot "carefully" or even aim at all sometimes. The more times you fire, the better chance you have of hitting the enemy. Also this is a game first and foremost. Fluff has to take a backseat to enjoyment.

2: You said this would apply even more to IG and were pretty vague about Orks. You also suggested that Orks wanted to get into melee ASAP which isn't true either. There are Orks who prefer to just shot guns (no matter what the range is) all day and there are Orks who love getting into melee.

[Mirage Knight]

Elukka:

FYI: The 40K Universe was written for TT - it's background information intended to give the game some life and explanation. W40K TT isn't based on a novel or a series of novels like some other TT games.

As I've stated previously, I'd much rather see DoW2 based on a known stat system and mechanics rather than arbitrary values like vanilla DoW is.

Eisenhorn538:


They won't be aiming at anything in particular.

That's Ork mentality - not Imperial. Guardsmen and particularly Space Marines are taught to make every shot count where possible. From what I've read, wasting ammunition is a punishable offense in the Imperium, although I could be wrong.

I do believe we're digressing here...

[jon_the_d]

The more times you fire, the better chance you have of hitting the enemy

have you played counter strike? you must die a lot. and your logic is flawed. you seem to be forgetting about recoil and kickback.

[Mirage Knight]

Indeed - Most army instructors teach the value of short, controlled bursts for a reason...and not just to conserve ammunition ;)

[Eisenhorn538]

@jon_the_d

That's because recoil doesn't apply to DoW or CoH. Accuracy and distance do.

[jon_the_d]

what do you mean it doesn't apply? just cos it's not got it's own coding, it's taken into account when they decide how long it takes to fire the next shot....

[dark frontier]

Hang on are we seriously suggesting here that the main infantry weapons of the Space marines, Imperial Guard, Tau and anyone else in Dawn of war 2 should not be able to be fired on the move?
That would be mad in my opinion.
It would make battles very static.
Just make it so that if the unit is moving it is less accurate at long range. I am sure that is doable in the CoH engine....

On the issue of more bullets = more likely to hit:
This is not entirely untrue. The whole principle of the german MG42 was to give it such a massive rate of fire that it would put so many bullets into the air that it was bound to hit something.
The point of a fully automatice SMG is to be able to fill the air with ammunition at close range, to allow the user to fire from the hip and still have a decent chance of hitting something, purely due to the amount of bullets being fired.

Sure controlled bursts are better at long range - no one can argue with that, but to say that the original statement is untrue is false.....

Put it this way, you are in a room, engaging in close combat, what would you rather have, a high rate of fire MP5, or a single shot rifle?
Obviously the Mp5, since the single shot is going to be unlikely to hit anything when fired from the hip and you probably wont have the time in CQB (Close quarters battle) to aim down the sight - hence at close range, more bullets is much better, hence a high fire rate weapon is more useful

PS
Not sure about Imperial Guard (though I doubt it to be honest) but for Space Marines, wasting ammo is punishable. They dispnse punishments for poor accuracy in training and for needless consumption of ammunition.

There are alot of interpretations of a Bolter, the most common idea though is that is can fire single shot, bursts, or fully automatic, but full auto is not even available on some models of bolter, and even when it is it is rarely used as it can cause problems with jamming etc

[Vrugar Gutslice]

To those commenting about orks one thing to remember is that the orks main two handed rifle (of sorts) the shoota is considered an assault 2 weapon now. Meaning they fire off two bursts no matter where they are as long as they're in range.

[Mirage Knight]

This is not entirely untrue. The whole principle of the german MG42 was to give it such a massive rate of fire that it would put so many bullets into the air that it was bound to hit something.

Wrong. The MG42 was primarily designed to allow the gunner to quickly pick off troops with controlled bursts of fire. Despite the fact that the MG42 could spit out 1200 rounds per minute, allowing the gun to pin down or nuetralize large numbers of troops, the Handbook of the German Army (1940) forbade the firing of more than 250 rounds in a single burst and indicated a sustained rate of no more than 300–350 rounds per minute to minimize barrel wear and over-heating.

You're also assuming that Bolters and Lasguns are automatic weapons - they aren't: they're semi-automatic weapons, meaning that they fire as fast as you can pull the trigger.

[Eisenhorn538]

From wikipedia:

The high rate of fire resulted from experiments with preceding weapons, that concluded that since a soldier only has a short period of time to shoot at an enemy, it was imperative to fire the highest number of bullets possible to increase the likelihood of a hit.

So the idea was to put as many bullets into the air in the shortest space of time possible. Which is what I've been saying from the start. :agree:

However this is getting way off topic now.

Also I'm pretty sure the lasgun has a fully automatic setting since in the Gaunt's Ghosts books, characters often go "on full auto."

[Octopus Rex]

Hmm, I dunno, at the end of the day isn't this all just about DPS? I mean, chances are that in an RTS you'll continue firing at the one target till it's dead (focus fire and all that), so both of the rapid fire shots would be fired at the same target the vast majority of the time. So really it's just a "add more DPS as closer range" kind of thing really? Or am I missing something?

[Elukka]

I know how 40k was born. However, the fluff and backstory is very different to the tabletop game, because a lot of what the writers wrote just doesn't work in a tabletop game. It's really just an interpretation of the universe.

DoW is, and should be, one too.

[Fish Of Doom]

bolters and lasguns ARE full auto weapons. full auto does not mean insane rate of fire, it means it keeps firing as long as you don't release the trigger. you could make an automatic cannon that spits out ten rounds per hour and it'd still be as automatic as a gau-8 avenger. and a lasgun is a freaking assault rifle, it even has a carbine variation, and clips are good for hundreds of shots at average power levels.

[Mirage Knight]

Bolters and lasguns ARE full auto weapons.

As far as GW is concerned, they aren't anymore and that will be made public when the 5th Edition Warhammer 40K rulebook comes out. Rapid Fire weapons are going to be defined as taking the form of semi-automatic rifles or similar weapons.

Octo: With COH mechanics, I'd say yes to that, with damage being halved at 50% of maxium range.

[Fish Of Doom]

TT is not fluff. all other material states bolters and lasguns are automatic weapons.

[Mirage Knight]

TT is not fluff.

That's a given - what exactly is your point?

Said material is out of date. As I said before, the revision to the description of Rapid Fire weapons will be in the next rule book. In fact more than likely there are a number of TT players out there that already know about this.

Now can we move this discussion along?

[Blackheart]

Recoil does apply in W40K, and this has been made obvious time and again-- even lasguns have been stated to have recoil, along with being semi-automatic in most forms (the hellgun and etc are automatic, but the ordinary lasgun is not)... this despite the fact that the bolter technicly shouldn't have much, if any recoil, but fluff is fluff. Also, you'd die very fast in a warzone by putting as many shots into the air as possible. Eventually, you will have to reload, and eventually, you will run out of ammo. And seeing as the Essence Engine-- which DoW2 will use a variant of-- uses all of these already, there's no "adding in" of new features. Rather, this is an important part of balancing engagements based on range, and giving certain races or units advantages at certain ranges but a disadvantage at other ranges, rather than making it just based on a "range or melee" balance. It adds more tactical depth to the game. Do you want to stay back behind cover and slug it out, or rush to short range where you have better DPS, and risk getting your units killed as you leave cover and get in your enemy's short range?

Regardless: The game is fun because it is mostly based off of the fluff. The W40K atmosphere makes it more interesting. "Realism", as it relates to the fluff, is important for the Dawn of War series. Bolters and Lasguns do not have infinite ammo per clip, and they are trained to utilize their ammo as best as they can. Ammo conservation is important for humans, even amongst the IG, and nobody wants to be caught reloading or worse, without ammo. Even if bolters are to be considered automatic, automatic weapons are usually used for a few seconds of burst, then wait, then another few seconds, to ensure the gun survives.

These facts should be incorporated into the game. Even if we gives everyone unlimited ammo (as I expect), any of these (range-based rate of fire, reload, range-based accuracy, bursts instead of constant fire, etc) are very useful tools for balance, as well as just giving a better feel fo the game.

[Elukka]

Fish of Doom has a point there, somehow i doubt revising the rules for gameplay reasons will mean the fluffwriters are going to say something like "on this year all lasguns and bolters were changed by decree of the high lords of Terra". I doubt anything will change at all.

Again, why should DoW2 use "rules" based off of tabletop rules and not the actual universe?

[Scinadier]

It was my understanding that Rapid Fire weapons are able to shoot twice at targets at half range even if the unit has moved. I don't see why you think Rapid Fire weapons should not be able to fire on the move.

[ContractHitman]

i think personaly they need to have the rate of fire, for rapid fire weapons included.

ie bolter fires much faster when nearer the enermy, while further away the rate of fire less.

[Blackheart]

Again, why should DoW2 use "rules" based off of tabletop rules and not the actual universe?

Because "the actual universe" is oftentimes very difficult to make rules based on and the TT is lightly based on the

Movie Space Marines anyone?

"The actual universe" varies between booksl.