Aspect warriors in DoW2

[Duke 3259]

I'm not sure if this is in the 'Eldar in DoW2' thread, but I thought I might bring this up.

I know DoW already has quite a decent spread of Aspects (i.e Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers) but I was wondering if any more Aspects would get in.

My examples:

Striking Scorpions for another uber close-quarters unit.

Swooping Hawks for a role similar to SM Assault Squads.

Shining Spears would be a good counterpart to SM and Ork bikes if these are incorporated.

Plus, Guardian squads could be upgraded to Dire Avengers.

Also, what do people think about an Autarch?

[Infidelicious]

Depends on the scale of the games... If you're only going to be using a few squads Ala CoH, it doesn't really make sense to incorporate more aspects, especially not ones already similar to ones we already use :/

Having Swooping Hawks, and FoF Banshees as well as Ranged teleporting units is a bit excessive :/

[Jobhug]

To not include dire avengers would make me very sad given they are now the heart of an Eldar army and look kick ass. Plus with all this talk about the importance of squad leaders in DOW2, Dire Avenger Exarchs are pretty fancy squad leaders afterall.

[Croaxleigh]

Blood Raven: Don't you mean DoW has a decent spread of Aspects? So far as I know, nothing Eldar-related has been confirmed for DoW2 (which means that any or all Aspects could be in, or not.)

[jon_the_d]

If eldar are in they should definitely include ALL aspects. eldar have very little customization options when it comes to troops, so we should get greater troop choice to make up for that. besides that, they're part of the eldar army and it feels wrong with out them (shining spears I can live without of course).

Even if they're smaller battles, and you'll never have a force big enough to have a couple of squads (or even just one) from each aspect, having the choice of which squads to compose your smaller force makes it so much more tactical and flexible.

How about implementing aspect stones in the similar way to DOW, but perhaps each barracks (or "force" if they're doing away with buildings) can only be given a set number, perhaps 4 or 5. this way you;d have to choose which aspects you wanted out of the total, knowing full well that you won't be able to use all of them. (if the aspect stones were linked to a commander or HQ structure (something expensive) or controlled area or whatever, then maybe you could get more aspects once your force was "worthy".

I love having to choose few from many. it gives so many possibilities.

how many are there any way?
:
Striking Scorpions
Howling Banshees
Dire Avengers
Dark Reapers
Fire Dragons
Swooping Hawks
Warp Spiders

definitely, having to choose 3 or 4 squads from the 7 aspects above, will be a really tactical decision. I'd love it.

(of course we'd still have guardians, rangers etc as choices too)

[Eldritch]

Well, assuming that Eldar will be in DoW2 at all, I think they'd be mad not to include the Autarch not just because it's the second commander unit that Eldar have been lacking for a long time, but mainly because of how customisable they are.

For those who don't play table-top, an Exarch is an Eldar who has solely dedicated themselves to the specific type of warfare personified by their Aspect, whereas an Autarch is an Eldar who has dedicated themselves not to any one Aspect, but rather to co-ordinating and commanding all Aspects.

What this means is that in addition to often being the primary commander of an Eldar military force, when it comes to selecting their wargear they can mix-and-match the standard equipment available to each Aspect; for example you could equip one with a Banshee Mask, the fusion gun of a Fire Dragon and the chainsword of a Striking Scorpion......or a reaper launcher, a powersword and a Warp Spider jump-pack etc. In other words this makes the Autarch the most customisable Eldar unit available with many different equipment combinations allowing the player to customise them both according to their own tastes and to fill desired tactical roles.

In regards to what Aspects would be included I think that the Aspects currently included in DoW already cover the main tactical roles required (though more would always be good). The main Aspect I would like to see added would be Dire Avengers as they're the primary Eldar infantry unit, the reason they weren't included in DoW being that at the time of release this position was still held by Guardians and it was only when their Codex was revised that this changed. I disagree with Blood Raven in his suggestion that Guardians should be upgradeable to Dire Avengers as although their equipment is similar they are two separate, distinct units and should remain that way.

I'd ideally like all the Aspects to be included but so long as we get all those from DoW plus the Autarch and Dire Avengers I'll be content.

[Imperial Dane]

Hmm.. dunno how things will play out as i would imagine it would also depend on what is most necessary and what relic can do, if the eldar are to be in DoW 2 and not an expansion, otherwise i could imagine some of those we already have plus dire avengers as they seem to be an overall tough infantry that might gain some use from cover and such.

[Versian]

I'm all for having all the Aspects.

And I'd love to see an Autarch. He's supposed to be the leader, while the farseer is just a kick ass warlock.

[jon_the_d]

I think in general, for DOW2, they should try to do each and every race (that's included) the justice they deserve, and for me, that includes the full range of troops, vehicles and characters (not special characters mind). Eldar should get all aspects, war walkers and support platforms, as well as stand alone but attachable warlocks (with choosable powers...choosable? w/e), and an autarch.
Marines should get tacs, devs, assaults, jumpyass's, termies (with choosable weapons), stand alone but attachable librarians (of different levels and with choosable powers), and the vehicles should be much more weapon choosable. all characters should have some options for wargear choosable. and similar completeness and choosableness for the other races.

I'd prefer to wait for an expansion for more races, than to be given more early on but only a partial army list for each race, and knowing that with each expansion that partialness is gonna be there for each other released race.

Although I do hope eldar make the vanilla.

choosable.

[MasterOfMankind]

@ jon_the_d

The term you're looking for is "selectable"

As for Eldar, I can't say that I really want them in vanilla Dawn of War 2. I don't find them very interesting or appealing in terms of race design and aesthetics. I much prefer the dream of having Relic announcing the existence of Chaos in Dawn of War 2. :science:

[Griffar]

@Blood Raven: lol drunk...

I reckon that Aspects would be great in DoW2. It would help more with the fluffy side of things.

Also, Striking Scorpions would have short-range shooting weapons (or mandiblasters, as they are called in TT). They wouldn't just be close combat.

[Darac]

If Relic decides that all the aspects will go in the game, then the amount of close combat and long range units will have to be fairly balanced.

[jon_the_d]

@ slinky

banshees have laspistols, scorpions have shuriken pistols. they're already both not just CC. and mandiblasters are actually only fired when entering CC, so they are not a ranged weapon.

Scorps= chainsword + shuriken pistol + mandiblasters + stronger armour + slower speed
or
Banshees= powersword + laspistol + banshee mask +weaker armour + faster speed

I like the choice you have to make. one of each perhaps?

[Shakrith]

I think perhaps the Eldar could work like this in terms of doctrines:

1) Aspect Warrior Army (i.e. Biel-Tan, or equivalent). Autarch commander, Avatar, everything is aspect warrior, basically, apart from tanks, of which there are a few but not many. Lots of variety of troops, which are all specialised.

2) Guardian/seer army (i.e. Ulthwe, or equivalent). Lots of improved guardians, all led by warlocks, Seer Council, and lots of use of warp portals to deploy. An army which is largely homogeneous in terms of troops, but with a wide range of abilities.

3) Wraith army (Iyanden). All wraithguard, wraithlords and seers. Not sure how practical this is.

4) Harlequins.

5) Jetbike army (Saim-Hann).

3, 4, and 5 are a bit sketchy. I'd also like to see Exodites, frankly, but that's too much to hope for.

Anyway, as regards aspects.

In DoW I felt the Eldar were completely wrong. They had guardian spam, for one thing - lots of cheap, weak troops. I mean, seriously, what the hell? Advanced technology, immortal, dying race, and they just throw their citizens into combat? NO!

In DoW 2 they need to focus heavily on what makes the eldar unique - seers with a wide range of abilities, generalist guardians who escort them, and aspect warriors with a variety of specialisations. They need to be elite, quick and specialised. The Aspect Warriors should be able to take on space marines one on one, so long as they're fighting on their terms, though, of course, with Dire Avengers, this wouldn't apply.

[4uk4ata]

Actually, seeing as the Eldar in WA/DC/SS are Ulthwe, the guardians make sense as the craftworld was famed for using them extensively in their armed forces. It's the other units that don't - especially the wraithlords. Weren't those Iyanden-only anyway?

[Thuraash]

Admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about Eldar fluff, but the idea of going for an aspect army instead of a guardian-centric army is appealing. Giving players the option would be nice, but if it were one or the other, I'd go for aspects, any day, in which case, they should put them all in. Yeah, there's some overlap in role, but they each go about their roles in very different ways.

I doubt it would be too much of a balance nightmare, either way. The idea of limiting the aspects you're allowed to field sounds both fluffy and tactically interesting. If that's too limiting, maybe the player could specify preferences in the pre-match planning stage, so that some aspects are cheaper and faster to requisition in, and some are more expensive in terms of req (or whatever it will be) and time? That way, if a player miscalculated in the tactical stage, and can't counter the opponent's force with their preferences (hard to do, with 4, but it could happen, especially in Eldar v. Eldar), they're no longer up a creek without a paddle... they're just up a creek with a really small one, with great big sharks leaping at them.

[Shakrith]

In the TT I liked Ulthwe most, especially the army list as it stood in the Eye of Terror book, but the use of psyker powers and warp technology really would have to be done well for me to like them in DoW 2. In particular, guardians may not be elite, but neither should they be cheap or dispensable like they are in DoW.

Aspect Warriors were never my favourite part of the Eldar in TT, but I think that if they animated them really well, they'd work well in DoW 2. The key word there is animated. I want to see Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders do more than simply stand there and shoot - that's what Reapers are for. Rather, they should be more dynamic. In particular Banshees and Scorpions should be crazy combat acrobats, and Swooping Hawks should be dropping down from the sky to fire their lasers.

[Nachtjager]

Aspects would be good for doctrines if they are included in DoW2.

[Imperial Dane]

Aspects as doctrines ? I think you might be getting something wrong here, aspects aren't doctrines, they are two very different things, an aspect is a path that an eldar warrior chooses to take, a doctrine is a set strategy that a commanding officer decides to take.

[Kane935]

It's the other units that don't - especially the wraithlords. Weren't those Iyanden-only anyway?

Nope, any Eldar player can use them. Iyanden just have more, due to having more spirit stones, due to all there people being dead.

@Master of Mankind

I also think chaos should be in, but in comparison to Eldar, Eldar are much more dynamic. To me, Chaos Marines are just Space Marines daemonized, with socerrors and daemons added in. To me, Chaos Daemons are far more varied compared to Chaos Space Marines.

[Nachtjager]

Aspects as doctrines ? I think you might be getting something wrong here, aspects aren't doctrines, they are two very different things, an aspect is a path that an eldar warrior chooses to take, a doctrine is a set strategy that a commanding officer decides to take.

What I was trying to say was that aspect warriors could be second-tier or third-tier troops if doctrines are included in DoW2. For example, if there was a deep-strike themed doctrine, Warp Spiders and Shining Spears could be second-tier troops.

[PitSoulja]

Given that things have changed in the Games Workshop codex's there are new armies and troops and what not. However for Eldar I'd like to see everything thats current in there now.

Avatar
Farseer
seer council
autarch
Striking Scorpions
howling banshees
harlequin troupe
death jester
shadow seer most definetly.
fire dragons
wraith gaurd
eldar wave serpents
gaurdians
dire avengers
rangers
jet bikes
swooping hawks
warp spiders
shinning spears
Pheonix lord
wraith lord
falcon
fire prisms
dark reapers
war walker

[Malleus Marine]

@PitSoulja: I like your idea, but wouldn't a harlequin troupe complete with master, death jester and shadowseer be a bit overpowered?

[Croaxleigh]

Hey, guys... there are other threads for units that you'd like to see and the like. This one's about how Aspect Warriors could be represented in DoW2, not Eldar army lists in general.

[Merc Scout]

I think that aspects broken up into doctrines would be a good idea. Perhaps the amount of aspect warriors from a particular craftworld would be good for a doctrine?
What I mean is this:

For example, Biel-Tan has a lot of Dark Reapers. They could be second-tier troops in a doctrine themed around Biel-Tan.

[Jobhug]

Biel-Tan has a proportionate amount of reapers, it's just the unsavory people who abused old rules who would make you think such.

[Octopus Rex]

These threads are getting a little tedious - basically it seems that many people want to see pretty much every unit in existence in DOW2, or at least the vast majority of units from their favourite race.

Well, NEWSFLASH: that's not going to happen. Do you seriously think you're going to see exarchs, autarchs, farseers AND phoenix lords in, as well as all the aspect disciplines in what appears to be, an even closer focused game with less troops than before? Don't get me wrong, I'd love it if they did too, but....

Rather than simply listing all the aspects over and over again, why don't we make this a little more interesting?

Choose TWO aspects that you would really really like to see make an appearance in DOW2. Tell us why. Do not assume that the aspects in DOW will automatically be in DOW2, because they may not.

Choose TWO aspects that, if they must cut some, you wouldn't miss. Tell us why.

A hard choice I know, but it will be much more interesting. For those of you not in the know the full list of aspects are a full list can be found about halfway down this wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eldar_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29)

First: I would love to see Striking Scorpions in as they are one of the first units that caught my eye as a kid. I think they have much more style than Banshees, and also I like the colour green more!

Second: I would choose Warp Spiders, as creepy, teleporting troops with crazy mono-filament guns are just way cool. I remember a time when the Eldar army didn't have these troops, and then they got introduced and I was wow'd. Also, spiders are plain cool!

Least fave one: it would have to be shining spears, as they really don't seem that much different from regular jetbikers.

Least fave two: banshees. Just not a fan. I'd rather see the close combat angle covered by Scorpions.

[Kratos]

Hmmm the aspect idea is good, I am not sure if we will see a thing like the doctrines from coh, but if there are going to be one it would ROCK.

I want reaper to be one doctrine, the doctrine is completly about enhancing ranged combat.
Another doctrine would be all around banshed or dire avengers, which is basically the melee tree.
And one tree should be about warp spiders, which is a mix of both, some ranged combat, and also some really quick get in and out tactics. For example "warp pack" overload, the warpsiders attack in melee with super speed throug hthier warppacks, they warp in, slash and warp out and this for 40 seconds.

[jon_the_d]

two in:

Scorpions and Swooping hawks:
Both haven't been done before, scorps are cool and tough, swoops could be made to look and play amazing, and will bring something complettely new to the eldar (in DOW series that is)

two to cut:
Dire avengers and Shining spears. Whilst I like dire avengers, they're not the most interesting, and their function is not gonna bring anything especially new to the eldar. You might say scorps don't either cos they're CC too, but really, just having one CC choice is a bit lame in my opinion, and I'd prefer a bit more fun with CC than another ranged unit.
Shining spears I don't think would suit what DOW2 is looking to be. and not really a troop option anyway. I don't put much prioirty (or hope) on seeing them in the game.

Can I also suggest a few changes to ones that we have seen before that I'd like to see again?

firedragons should have short range melta guns, these should be very effective against nearly all targets, but perhaps pretty slow firing (maybe as slow as a missile launcher), and obviously need to get in pretty close.

Dark reapers should be given back their missile launchers, with automatic frag or krak missile fired depending on what target you clicked on (krak for vehicles, buildings, heavily armoured units and individuals, frag for light and medium armoured squads)

[ZimZum]

Warp Spiders have to be in, dammit. They could look incredible with Essence 2.0, leaping in and out of the material plane. You could probably have a nifty play on that in their close combat animations, or turn their teleport into an attack move of its own, like assault marines can with their jumps. Killing somebody with a web spinner could show them writhing around as they're shredded, too. I'm no Eldar expert, so I've no idea how freely they use their teleports in the fluff, or if indeed I've remembered what a web spinner does correctly though. :)

Fire Dragons, I don't have much of an opinion on them but a tank killer is always useful.

[Jianaran]

In:
Shining Spears. Graceful blue-and-white eldar on Jetbikes wielded laser lances? What's not to like! Also, DoW2's engine would make them look AWESOME.

Dark Reapers. DoW stuffed them up, DoW2 can make them beautiful again. A squadron of Reapers in a building raining down a hail of rockets, not merely firing a stream of polygons? in.

Out:

Howling Banshees. They were in DoW, and while I have nothing against them, they really aren't all that interesting. Let's have Scorps for our CC aspect warriors.

Star Lancers? I can't remember what they were called, but they piloted all the Eldar vehicles. Basically, they were a fluff-only Aspect that never had rules, and serve as a device to allow me to escape naming another, more famous aspect to get the chop.

[Fable]

I would like to see the aspects included almost to full capacity.

Dire Avengers: They are now officially the frontline troop for Eldar, pushing the Guardians to what they should be, support units. DAs are the most common aspect and should be respectably represented in the game. They are the most all around aspect choice.

Howling Banshees: They are fast and lightly armored and are the Eldars best combat unit for taking out highly armored opponents in small numbers.

Striking Scorpions: Benefit from infiltration abilities, are slow but have good armor and excell at taking out massive amounts of light infantry.

Dark Reapers: Heavy armor Provide long range firepower for taking out tough troops.

Swooping Hawks: light armor provide medium range firepower with speed for taking out light infantry.

Fire Dragons: light armor with speed, can take out armor support or small numbers of infantry with extreme prejiduce from very short range.

Those are the classic aspects of the Eldar and should be represented. Only in 2nd edition did we see the addition of Warp Spiders as short range infantry killers of all infantry, though primarily light infantry, and their combination of speed and heavy armor; As well as shining spears who really probably shouldn't be in the game at all.

[Infidelicious]

Warp Spiders - Teleporting is awesome, and so is cutting Marines in half with a piano wire silly string gun.

Swooping Hawks - Never heard of them, but I looked them up and they look awesome. Plus they help define Eldar as a Glass cannon race, that relies on superior mobility.

As far as gone...

Reapers, always seemed like suck incarnate in DoW1, which is sad because they have cool masks. I'd like them more if they had rocket launchers, instead of grey blob guns.

Rangers: a whole squad of "snipers" seems dumb.

[Catt]

You coud have a choice at each tier as to which Aspects you can use (abit like the Kau'yon Mont'ka choice).

So everyone could get dire avengers, dark reapers and firedragons. The you could choose banshees or striking scorpians at tier 1 and warp spiders or swooping hawks at tier 3. Or something along those lines.

It's not a perfect solution but it would enable you to have all the aspects in the game but give the Eldar a bit of tactical flexibility. For example when up against Chaos the slower but stronger strking scorpians might be more effective than banshees, but against imperial guard the faster banshees might be able to close faster and cut down lighter armoured guardsmen more effectively.