Melee in DoW2

[Exsequien]

I haven't found a thread about this yet..

Right now, huge melee units like the Bloodthirster, Nightbringer and the chicken have some serious problems being useful in melee combat. It's mostly because every unit faster than a necron without limbs, crawling with his teeth, can out-dance them, the horrible pathing doesn't help aswell.

So they are mostly reduced to soaking up damage or attacking buildings, sometimes they can get some hits on a vehicle that's stuck. It's rather sad to see such intimidating (at least looking) units reduced to that kind.

So my suggestion: make the big melee units target whole squads instead of single enemies (exception: commanders and vehicles) and make them use their huge size!
The Bloodthirster makes a big step forward (if there is a infantry unit in his way he just steps on it) and then he attacks with his massive axe and hits the whole squad. That's what I want to see! That thing is tall like a building but he gets stuck between some units that are about the size of his foot?

The same thing for the chicken, its standard attack should be like the Squiggoths trample ability: it just charges into the enemies, steps on some orks, knocks some away by hitting them with its head and then bites one to death.

Now they should not be whole army killers but the big units should be a intimidating as they look and should be able to atleast disrupt a squad completely while doing a lot of damage to them.

Also: why do knockback-abilites do pathetic to no damage? I'm talking about the AOE abilites of the Daemon prince/Bloodthirster or the chainsword of the IG priests etc... they knock the enemy away but don't deal any good damage :err:

[jon_the_d]

I like your ideas for the bigger units.....perhaps they can use some sort of speed burst when charging to stop them being outdanced.....dancing is such a silly part of the game...(DOW1 that is)

[Blackheart]

I agree on the large units and heavy vehicles with blast weapons targeting the squad in general rather than the individual units.

[Exsequien]

I like your ideas for the bigger units.....perhaps they can use some sort of speed burst when charging to stop them being outdanced.....dancing is such a silly part of the game...(DOW1 that is)

Yeah, I agree :)

They should charge into the enemy as soon as they are close at them, stepping on units and knocking everything in their path away (including your own units, but without damage for them, only knockback) and when they are in melee with a squad, it should be hard for them to get away. Only some special, very fast units should be able to escape without getting destroyed in the process like FoF eldars.

[Versian]

You want big melee units to attack several units at once... isn't this already in Dawn of War 1?

I've seen the Avatar knockback several soldiers with a swing of his Wailing Doom. The bloodthirster jumps up and slams back down sending units everywhere.

It's already implemented, and probably will be in DoW2 as well.

[TheLoneKnight]

On top of big melee units already attacking multiple units simultaneously in Dawn of War, squads heading into CC already get a speed boost. At least they used to. I haven't played Soul Storm so I don't know if it's still in.

Units charging into close combat would recieve a minor speed boost, as I recall, along with a damage boost (and would stop firing their ranged weapons) when they got close enough to the enemy. The problem, however, wasn't that they were easily outrun; it was that when they finally did catch the enemy the enemy would effortlessly escape combat immediately there after and the persuers would still be swinging their weapons in an attack animation.

It might be better to have units suffer a bit of slowdown (movement speed only) once they're actually engaged in combat, or to force them to hit some kind of retreat button that allows them to disengage, boosts movement speed and removes their ability to fire for a couple of seconds (perhaps with some kind of cooldown), so that they can't simply disengage/reingage constantly. You could even make it automatic, so that when the player orders their squad away from the enemy it occurs automatically. Conversely, they could implement a CoH-styled retreat button that causes a unit to retreat to a player-selected distance (or the nearest allied structure/commander/whatever) when used, preferably a certain distance away from enemy units.

There are almost certainly better ideas than these, of course, but these are the only ones that occur to me offhand. Well, except for causing charging melee units to inflict more significant damage, meaning that extended dancing actions are likely to result in several charge hits which, in turn, cost you quite a few units.

[Pocktio]

Definately agree with whats been said, but rather than hitting the whole squad maybe just hitting those in the front rank....I mean if it swipes an axes across them no sense it damaging units its doesnt hit. TLK speaks truth, maybe a medieval 2 style 'bracing' when units receive charges and when you disengage your squad takes more damage as if you turn your back on a chainsword wielding lunatic it is rather easy for him to plunge a chainsword into your back isn't it? That way a unit cant engage in melee knowing you will turn around and he will get his damage boost because the unit he charged will have braced and received a defense bonus. Just things that might make melee more...real? Is that what we search for? Or balance? Well either way anything to fix the current system is welcome ¬_¬

[jon_the_d]

I like the idea of lone knights last paragraph. tihs could be a good way to stop this dancing bollocks.

in TT (iirc), if you want to break away from CC, you basically have to risk your units life (as you turn your back to run and stop paying attention to their weapons, makes sense), so apart from what TLK said in his last paragraph, any hits landed when the unit is running away (i.e: not fighting back, should be easy enough to work out coding wise?), should get a damage bonus, perhaps as much as 200%.

This would mean that to try to break away from CC, to cut and run, would be a pretty risky option. Then coupled with what TLK said in his last paragraph, they're only likely to get engaged again anyway. much better to stay and do your best, and hope some of your buddies come to your rescue!

btw, I'm talking here about ALL CC, not just the bigger units. I mean squads and characters..everything. IF you make your guard turn their backs on the banshees they're in CC with, you should expect to see a lot of your guards have powerswords sticking through their chest, or air where their heads used to be.

I think this would effectively solve the sillyness that is dancing, and would make the whole CC thing more realistic.

[konfeta]

CC in Warhammer40k is anything BUT realistic. Keep the dancing, we don't need a pretty movie of a game. That's what movies are for.

Naturally it needs to be balanced, but don't flat out remove it.

[jon_the_d]

konfeta. some would argue that what games are for is to put you in the movie.

anyway, how is what I have suggested making it just a pretty movie of a game? and if you read what I wrote, you should realise that what I suggested was not TT CC anyway.

and besides that, some will argue what you said about TT CC being unrealistic too. it's more realistic than what we have currently.

read my sentence about banshees and guard again, and then tell me where what I have said is unrealistc? or detrimental to gameplay for that matter...

[ImmortalChaos]

Leave melee exactly as it is, exept for one thing:

Let units melee on the move instead of stopping altogether whenever they go to swing their weapon.

There'd have to be some slowdown effect as well as accuracy penalty to prevent this from being too powerful, but it would certainly make dancing much more interesting as your enemy wouldnt stop and let you run whenever they took a swing.

[Exsequien]

You want big melee units to attack several units at once... isn't this already in Dawn of War 1?

I've seen the Avatar knockback several soldiers with a swing of his Wailing Doom. The bloodthirster jumps up and slams back down sending units everywhere.

It's already implemented, and probably will be in DoW2 as well.

Not quite. The Avatar still targets only one unit, but can hit more than one - you can see that when he's attacking a building, the avatar uses his AOE attacks against it like it was a single unit, just like in melee.

In DoW2 he should target the whole squad and try to hit as many as he can by swinging his sword horizontally.

Plus the big units often get stuck between much smaller units despise their huge size. So the charge bonus in the current DoW is useless when he's stuck somewhere. That's why they should be able to trample through infantry, stepping on them, whatever it takes to get to the enemy.

The anti-dancing ideas of the Lone Knight are great as well :) Melee units could get much more useful with this without needing huge damage like 300 dps. I guess that's because a Bloodthirster has a really hard time hitting an enemy (expect for his AOE moves which don't do the 300 dps but much less damage afaik) so WHEN he hits an enemy it's devasting. That should be changed so he hits enemies much more often but with less damage.

[Eisenhorn538]

How is dancing bad? It's a valid tactic.

[Shakrith]

TheLoneKNight, as usual, has made the definitive contribution to this thread. Charging damage is exactly what 40k needs. It's in the TT, it's in the fluff, and it would solve the problem of dancing.

Dancing is only a "valid tactic" because it's in the game. It's irritating, unrealistic and it doesn't have to be.

[jon_the_d]

it's only a valid tactic because of the way the game has been made. it shouldn't be valid, at least not against the faster CC units. ok fine maybe you can outrun a dreadnought, but not banshees and asm.

how it should work is that if you try to outrun banshees or ASM , then as soon as they catch up with you you get a blade through your back. dead. none of this chipping away at your armour, in 3 minutes you'll be dead.

They'd even take you to the ground first to stop you running. a quick trip, or a slash to the leg, or even leaping on you. however they'd do it, they would do it. and the cowards would be dead.

even if they did turn and fight, if they're outclassed, it's gonna be a short fight, that's the nature of close combat.

if the units are evenly matched then it could and should have the potential to last a while. but none of this miniscule DPS "I can see who's going to win" crap.

CC needs an overhawl, and dancing, or rather, pursuing units inability to catch and kill their quarry, is the worst aspect.

imo.

[konfeta]

then tell me where what I have said is unrealistc?


would make the whole CC thing more realistic.

Yeah. When you saying making the whole CC thing more realistic while calling to remove dancing, you are kinda implying that it's unrealistic. Dancing should be a viable strategy that doesn't make melee units obsolete. There are ways to do so without utterly removing it.

The movie comment was about this drive in the industry to include quick-time events in games where it kills the gameplay. I don't play a game to press X every once in a while and watch pretty special effects. I don't want Dawn of War to become a "put your units down, press attack move, and watch the game play itself. Micro? Fuck that shit, dawg!"

While calling removing of dancing that is an exaggeration, most big changes occur through small steps at a time. Intelligent squad members that decide what to do in the battle? Interactive cut-scene boss fights? No dancing? If I wanted a Warhammer40k movie, I would rather have a good director film it and not a developer ruin a potentially good game for it.

Yes, I know you said you didn't want to fully remove dancing. But making retreating from CC a suicide is precisely the kind of thing that makes dancing obsolete. If they remove dancing and not include very well thought out features for ranged units to counter melee outside huge DPS, this game will be an attack-move and zoom in fest. (And shouldn't replays do that thing?)

I agree that dancing shouldn't be as simple as moving a couple units around, but I disagree that melee units need to auto-win if they close in. Because if that's the case, we enter a cycle of either melee being worthless or ranged being worthless. The alternative is to reduce player control of the battle and make steps leading to the battle more important.

Oh wait, they are removing stuff like base building. Crap...


*I guess they could incorporate a form of dancing that revolves around preventing the enemy melee units reaching you in the first place. But that's an awful lot of excellent game design that needs to be executed and will result in either working or not working.

I mean, it would actually be pretty awesome and would satisfy both the games-are-movies and games-are-control crowds. If a game is so well designed with terrain and special abilities well integrated into the gameplay (as in, not a gimmicky thing a unit can do, but actually integral parts of dancing, positioning, ambushing, retreating, harassing, etc.), it will be a fun game to develop skill in and to watch.

[Exsequien]

^ Dancing shouldn't become obsolete! It's a valid tactic that gives players with good micro an edge in battle. But it's kinda silly to see Firewarriors successfully run away from guys with jetpacks or swift eldars without getting hit ONCE. The problem is that melee fighters run behind them, start an attack and miss because the enemy moved an inch.

So I greatly support these two ideas:

- Enemies that are caught in melee and try to flee should be vulnerable while doing that. The melee fighters could get a "oppurnity hit" which happens instanttly and does increased damage.
- The abilty for melee fighters to "fire on the move" - they run after the fleeing enemy and swing their weapons, hoping to get a hit. It's just like the ranged Fotm with decreased accuracy

[Versian]

Exsequien: Ok, I understand your point better now.

For large melee units like the Avatar or the Bloodthirster I think the current system is ok. I mean, It makes sense to try to take out a whole squad at once, but you'll find it that even in heated conflict you will find individual guys and chop them specifically.

If it is left unchanged, I would't mind. Of course, we do need better pathing when using the mentioned units.

[jon_the_d]

@ konfeta:

the fact that CC units will pretty much auto win in CC, and ranged units will auto win if the CC units fail to engage them, is the beginnings of a great tactical game.

it's not a bad thing. it's a good thing. It means a player will have to use his troops in the most appropriate way, and make sure he has the right troops to deal with each situation.

eg: he has a devastator squad, but is worried about being engaged in CC by the banshees. set up somwhere where the banshees will have to run across open space to reach you. or better yet, on the roof of a building or an top of a cliff.

alternatively, make sure you have some CC units of your own on hand to protect your devastators should banshees come for them.

it will still be a great game, and perhaps even more tactical than it is currently.

[Fightingfirst]

Do you reckon normal SM will be able to hold off dedicated CC units? I know they'd get squished by some of the more heavy CC troops but if they get beaten by any CC unit then it kind of makes their elite staus obselite.

[Exsequien]

Do you reckon normal SM will be able to hold off dedicated CC units? I know they'd get squished by some of the more heavy CC troops but if they get beaten by any CC unit then it kind of makes their elite staus obselite.

Well, they can't defeat everybody both in rc and cc. But I guess they can fight off Sluggas (when they both have the both number of units - unlikely but hey :D), Cultists and stuff like that. But I would be really dissapointed if my Banshee Squad would lose against them :Oogle:

[Sturmtruppen]

more snares is the answer and swing on the move... i hate it when melee units get no action time... they just bump the guy and stop... then repeat

[Dagganoth]

Sync kills (again) more blood more action more fun nuff sed.

[Thuraash]

I'm not sure if my terminology here is right, but I see two types of dancing in DoW. There's dancing of ranged units BEFORE CC units close in, which means that they never get engaged, while their buddies shoot at the CCers. That is sortof a game of cat and mouse, where the CCers will just not be able to close with their target without a significant speed advantage (which several have).

The second form of dancing that, I think, ticks a lot of people (including me) off is pulling units that have already been engaged in CC in and out to prevent the CC specialists from hitting them. Frankly, I think that mechanic is stupid, and results in very poor gameplay, since several of your CC units just won't get a shot off, and would get stuck in an animation. Solutions (borrowing a lot from what several people have already said in this thread:

1) Implement a charge damage bonus, and a heavy penalty on units bailing out of CC. Basically, CC units charging into CC should instantly inflict some amount of damage upon entering combat. This may yield short battles if both units were charging at each other, but that's not bad, IMO. When ordered out of CC, a unit should automatically be in a retreat state which makes them very vulnerable to damage, but just slightly quicker than normal for a few seconds. The unit in CC should chase them down automatically, and if they can keep up, inflict very heavy losses (like, you basically get your squad pounded into the earth for doing something as dumb as turning your backs on fast-attack CC units like ASMs or Stormboys). Even if they can't keep up, they should still inflict decent damage as the unit disengages from CC.

You still, however, need a way to retreat those crazy-powerful flash-gitz from CC combat so you can get them back to dealing insane damage from range. A good way to give players that option, IMO, is to either disrupt the squads they're engaged in CC with, using heavy weapons, grenades, light artillery, whatever you have on hand (and if that means you disrupt your own squad, that's fine) and then quickly order the disengagement. That way, they shouldn't be subject to the penalties, or at least a greatly reduced penalty, since you broke up the fight and the best the CC units can do is chase and re-engage them if they have a speed-advantage. The other way is to bring another allied unit into the CC battle, and once both squads are engaged, you retreat the ranged units you wanted to free up. Of course, if the other player sees you trying this with a fodder squad that's very poor in CC, they could just take the penalty and order their units to disengage and chase after your flash gitz again. This, I'm guessing, would be far more effective with fast attack units, and less so with slower units.

2) Fix the animation system, so units aren't taking ten-minute-long swings at thin air, when the unit they were targeting left range 9 minutes ago.

3) (A lot of people may not like this) Get rid of the huge, Avatar of Khaine-size mega-units. They're annoying, their pathing is horrendous, and I personally feel that their ridiculous size makes them look very strange.

Side Issue: The pathing for large units and vehicles shouldn't get messed up by infantry. Why not just have them slip out of the way of the larger unit's footfalls, so it can basically wade through your other squads. Same with vehicles and other infantry squads. Flow through each other... like water through water of a different color, as Bruce Lee may or may not have described it.

[SubZero]

I believe the biggest chore about the non-ranged Relic Units is that they hit a unit with a bus-sized weapon and the target just crawls back to it's feet. If a gargantuan creature lobs a bus at you; you won't be getting up ;)

Plus the AOE of the Relic Units is quite poor for such seemingly powerful units; needless to say that the insta-kill element of CoH would be very interesting in DoW2, where tanks can instantly kill infantry, and infantrymen armed with Anti-vehicle can instantly kill fellow infantry despite their non-specific target weaponry.

[Darzok]

I think adding what they did in mark of chaos would be good.

To retreat was risky at time's as if they failed to recover around 50% moral befor they got to the edge of the map where your army joined you lost the squad as they leave the battlefield.

That way to run form melee combat would be risky you might lose a whole squad or you can stay in melee and maybe only lose a few unit's.

[Thuraash]

GroundZero:
The CoH system would be interesting, and I would like it to be implemented. The rates of fire on those weapons was low enough that it really didn't do much to the infantry squad in question, and I think that would work just fine in DoW2. That being said, a Space Marine just MAY be able to get back up, very badly hurt, perhaps, but still alive, after being hit by a bus... now a bus made up of plasma, I don't know.

Darzok: I really don't want this becoming like a TW game, so while that mechanic worked for Mark of Chaos, I'd rather not have it in DoW2. I don't want my units sprinting off-map because they want mommy...

[ErichTheGraham]

I think the main issue most of us struggle with here is that in DoW1, when units get engaged in melee, they just run. This is fine from a gameplay standpoint, but watching your CC units vainly swipe at the air like sleep-deprived monkeys is a big problem for me. Just make what's happening tactically make sense to me visually. I think ImmortalChaos had the best suggestion so far. On the issue of relic units, it's a bigger version of the same problem. Why doesn't that Avatar just step over those danged guardsmen? Why does the bloodthirster not seem to want to hurt those guardians feelings by asking them to kindly MOVE THE FUCK OUT OF THE WAY? Let's focus on ways to get past these problems, because as a gameplay issue it is really only a pathing problem.

[jon_the_d]

@darzok.
Yeah, they're not fleeing, they're simply trying to disengage. no running to the edge of the map thanks.

I still think that if it were designed so that if your non CC squad got engaged by CC specialists, then they were in real big trouble, it'd be the best and most reasonable system.

If you want to be able to get your Flash gitz out of CC relatively safely, TOUGH! instead, plan around not letting them get engaged in the first place!!! if that means keeping a squad of stormboyz nearby, fine, what's the problem?

If you put a squad like flash gitz out on their own with no CC support in a place where a CC specialist could close and engage them, then you deserve to be punished by the game, and suffer some heavy losses. it's only right.

-
as for CC troops being able to land blows on the move, surely that could easily be coded by just making CC wepaons have a range (albeit pretty small) the animation would still be a sword swing etc. but damage would be dealt if the unit was in the range. This would mean that pursuing units can continually deal damage, as long as they can keep up. sound fair? I think so. (although I'm compromising here, I still think if a pursuing CC specialist does catch up with you with your back turned, you'd be pretty dead.)

Damage dealt to the back of a fleeing unit should be more than one who has turned to fight (cos now they're blocking and dodging etc.). Easy way to do this is to set the coding for default CC damage to be the value you want to represent swinging at someone who isn't fighting back, and then implement a negative modifier to damage if the unit you are attacking is actually fighting back, ie: you are "in" CC.

This would of course result in mutual CC damage being less then pursuing CC damage, which was the desired effect.

This would also encourage even non CC units to stand and fight, hoping for assistance, unless they think they can outrun their attackers.

All of this sounds great to me, and would bring CC to how it should be.

[Exsequien]

jon_the_d: great post :) I agree fully. That way you have to care for your heavy ranged combat units, place them on spots where they are safe from CC units and maybe give them even their own support by CC units.

Because if RC units can't run away from CC easily, so should CC units. If a group of Stormboys rushes towards your Dark Reapers but get caught by Banshees in a fight, they have to fight it out with them or try to flee while getting stabbed in the back! It would add so much more tactical possibilites!

Erichs post make me laugh :D it's really strange to see the Bloodthirster get stuck because some guardsmen the size of his toenail block his path.
The vehicles should get a better pathing as well. Fast vehicles like bikes and trukks should be able to knock enemies away when they are at high speed (not much damage, just knocking them out of their way) while getting a bit damage.
And for bigger vehicles like tanks: they just plow through the infantry. They automatically dodge/evade the tank like in CoH so you can't instant kill units by driving over them, but it really helps with the pathing of the tanks.
And walkers should have the "get the fuck out of my way or I step on you" mentality :D

[Sturmtruppen]

maybe instead of crushing with vehicles due to large units, game will simply bump units out of the way, knock them back or something, infantry take some damage, and the end

[c0416991]

dancing off meleing units should not be so easy in dow2, running away while back facing a meleing unit should get more damage from the chaser once it got hit.

[Colonel Brom]

Well we dont want to uber meele units but when a unit tries to run away from meele the attacking unit gets a dam boost.

[Darac]

@Shakrith: Charging damage for every single unit would completely munt the game up. The charging-melee system implemented in DoW2 should be based on whether the units are dedicated CQB or just grunts.

[jon_the_d]

please define and explain "munt the game up".

How would it do so?

[Exsequien]

I guess he means that if EVERY unit gets a charge bonus for melee (even RC units) it would get kinda stupid. Only units specialized in melee (jump-troops, banshees, nobz, etc...) should get a charge bonus.

[jon_the_d]

yeah, but why would it get kind stupid?

[Fightingfirst]

You could just give specific CC troops a larger charge bonus for charging compared to range combat troops. Also, maybe base the charge bonus on weight and size and strength of the charging troop.

[Exsequien]

That's right. An Ork Nob does surely more damage with a charge attack than a puny eldar.

[jon_the_d]

no , I don't think so, :P.

Fightingfirst has got the right idea though, and pre-empted me ( I was gonna wait for extensive hacks's answer, but nevermind).

the game wouldn't be "munted up" by letting all troops have a charge bonus. Especially because the CC specialists should be given a much greater charge bonus than non CC specialists, (cos they REALLY know what they're doing, and how to make the most out of the extra speed and momentum).

The CC charge bonus should depend on the troop, but everyone shoudl get at least a little bonus.

Think of Tac marines, they're not CC specialist per se, but they can hold their own in CC pretty damn well. They're good all rounders, that's the point. so if they decide to charge into CC, that charge will give them a momentary advantage.

as for nobz, causing more damage then "puny" eldar (grrrr), in a charge. it's not jsut a shoulder barge, the eldar would be leaping and whirling and slashing with their powersword and kung fu skills. If you've seen any half decent kungfu sword fight movie you should have some idea of what I'm talking about.

That lightning fast blade could do as much damage if not more than a nob and his brute strength.

banshee vs nob....I'd bet on banshee.

Don't forget the banshees (and scorpions if they're in) get the additional bonus from their mask/mandiblasters on a charge, and charge faster than most CC units anyway.

puny eldar, pfft.

[Cortlendt]

I wonder if shooting in melee will be allowed in DoW2. It makes a game changing difference.

[jon_the_d]

what do you mean by "shooting in melee"? you mean CC troops using their pistols as a CC weapon? or do you mean being able to shoot at units in melee?

They should be able to use their pistols as CC weapons, but I'm not sure how big a difference that'll make to the game. In TT you get an extra attack, but that's turn based where as DOW2 is most likely going to be DPS - so the equivalent would be for both weapons to be inflicting DPS in CC (as long as the hit lands - not sure how they work out CC DPS to be honest).

I guess we need to know more about the CC damage system that'll be used before we can know what impact a second wepaon will have.

eitherway, it should make them more dangerous, and deal more damage.

AS for the second possible meaning of your question: it's been brought up before, and it'll b eintresting to see how they've treated it in DOW2.

What with the steps to more advanced realism (destructability, cover, pinning? etc.) it would make sense that they might address the problem of units being able to be shot at when they're in CC, without any risk of Friendly Fire.

Personally, I don't like it. Troops in CC should certainly not be as vulnerable and easy to hit as when they're standing in the open.

To try to pick out your target in a frantically fast brawl, making sure you don't hit your own men, would be nigh on impossible, with people spinning round and changing positions as they duck and dive and lunge and swing, you'll be doing well enough to track your target, let alone work out where it'll be when your shot will reach it. and also workin gout on top of that that none of your own guys are going to step into your line of fire.

correct me if I'm wrong, but in TT you're not allowed to shoot at units engaged in CC?

anyway, this is DOW2, and I think that IF you are allowed to shoot at units in CC, you have to accept that you might hit your own men. and damage dealt should be distributed roughly evenly between those in CC.

With my logic and fairness, I would then add that the ratio of enemy units to friendly units should come into play: if 2 units are being attacked by 8, you're more than likely going to hit the 8. Also, the size of the units should come into play. Bigger targets will be easier to hit than smaller ones, even in a brawl. and some are big enough to stand above the height of the rest, and so you still have a clear shot (avatar, etc.). also with logic and fairness, fighting style and speed should come into it. a nimble eldar who is flashing about all over the place, would be harder to pick out than a brute who just stands there swinging.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that to somehow incorporate the above will be much too much hard work, and not really worth it.

however. If DOW2 implements LoS and projectiles, all these will be solved instantly.

Please relic use LoS and projectiles!!!!

[Blackheart]

Guardsmen should be able to charge, definitely. Let's say you have guardsmen squads in charging range of Tau fire warrior squad... they should get a bonus for doing so, risking the withering fire of the tau fire warriors to exploit their weakness (or managing to use cover or buildings to sneak around to a less vulnerable flanking position), and enter close combat with bayonetts against pulse rifle clubs. Maybe even the bayonetts could be an upgrade that increases their charge bonus (even if it's still less than most CC units). And then Sarissas would be similar for Sisters.

[Wrapper]

A long long time ago in a forum far far away there were two monumental threads.

Feedback about the melee system (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=137394&page=1&pp=15)

Feedback about Squads (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=138358&page=1&pp=15)

I would like to reiterate what I posted here (http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=2177487&postcount=226) on Melee system and here (http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=2181569&postcount=168) on Squads and Ranged system.


What did you love most about the melee system?
-- Its mere existence makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

What would you change?

-- More visual variety in hacking and slashing (think along the lines of Medieval II: Total War).

-- Hack On The Move (CC equivalent of ranged Fire On The Move) with an accuracy penalty of sorts. Accuracy penatly could vary depending on the attacking squad (e.g., 50% for PSM, 40% for Zerks, etc.).

-- Reduce accuracy of ranged fire against infantry targets that are on the fly. In-transit Raptors, ASM, Stormboys should not be as easy a target as foot-slogging squads.

-- Friendly Fire for ranged attacks pointed in the general direction of infantry squads engaged in CC. Make it something like 50% against foes and 30% against friendlies. Again, the actual figures might vary depending on the attacking squad (you might think that specialized ranged units would be more effective in targeting foes while still hitting some friendlies). And you might give the player an option to override this with "Non-Discriminating Fire" stance such that ranged attacks would not be affected by any penalty and deliver the same gamage to friend and foe alike. Friendly Fire stances for ranged attacks should have no effect on vehicles though (e.g., it would be hard to miss a towering dreadnought even if it is surrounded by infantry).

-- Re-designed stances:

1) Primary stances:
1.1) Melee
1.2) Ranged

2) Melee stances:
2.1) All units in a squad engage in CC with potentially more than one enemy squad (tapping allowed)
2.2) All units in a squad engage in CC with only one enemy squad (tapping not allowed)
2.2) Each unit in a squad takes on one enemy in CC while the rest can still shoot (tapping not allowed)

3) Ranged stances:
3.1) All units are lined up to shoot
3.2) All units with the range longer than minimum are lined up to shoot (all heavy weapons are engaged)
3.3) Only the units with the longest range are lined up to shoot

4) Friendly Fire stances:
4.1) Discriminating Fire
4.2) Non-Discriminating Fire
4.3) Leave them alone (no firing at meleeing squads whatsoever for fear of injuring friendlies)

-- Scrap the current infiltration system. Down with the Invisible Meleeing Grots of Doom! ;-) Or just go back to the infiltration the way it was in DoW/WA.

-- Reduce the frequency of knock-back attacks. At the same time give meleeing units the opportunity to stomp knocked-back enemy units.

-- Think of maybe adding more CC-specific heavy weapon upgrades.

What would you not change?

-- Taking control away from the player is not a good thing. Please do not make it so that squads are permanently locked in CC. Or at least do not make it affect all squads. Those arguing that any squad running away from CC should take lots of punishment in the morale and HP departments fail to consider the many different backgrouds of DoW forces. Say here's a squad of IG and along comes a squad of angry Nobs and enters CC. Now are you seriously saying that IG's morale should suffer when they are leaving CC? I would think they would be pretty happy to relocate in order to get their flashlighs to good use rather then stay in a no-chance CC fight against Nobs.


Question: What do you like about squads?
Answer: Love them....coolest thing about the game. What I like most of all is that squad is an entity that is much more important than its constituents.

Question: What would you change?

-- More visual variety in units appearance like in DoWPro or Medieval II: Total War.

-- Improve pathfinding and squad coherency.

-- Squad AI like in CoH. (Later thought: Make them smart but not too smart. Like, you know, they should still follow my orders sometimes.)

-- Squad should be within a certain radius from HQ, Barracks or similar structure in order to reinforce. Base trading has to go away from this game. Lame rushing has to go away from this game.

-- Make reinforcing more cost-effective than building a squad (e.g., individual marine costs 50 req when reinforcing but building a squad of 4 marines should cost more that 200 req).

-- Allow more than one attachment slot. There's no reason why you should not be able to attach a commander and a medic or a skull probe as long as you cannot attach two commanders or two medics.

-- Allow commander units to be attached to jump-pack squads. E.g., Force Commander could join a squad of ASM. It would make sense since FC is melee-oriented anyways and ASM would be great for soaking damage so FC stays alive a little longer. And while FC is attached to ASM, disable jump option for them.

-- Squad should be within a certain radius from Armory or similar structure in order to equip heavy weapons.

-- Make weapon upgrades queue independent from reinforcement queue. It should be possible to reinforce the squad while equipping it with heavy weapons at the same time as long as you have enough units in the squad to take those heavy weapons.

-- Add ability to drop heavy weapons so that it is possible to re-equip the squad with different heavy weapons as situation demands.

-- Introduce caps for heavy weapons. E.g., make it so that you can have the maximum number of let's say 2 heavy bolters and 2 flamers for your 4 HW slots in this particular squad, etc.

-- Remove sweeping upgrades such as Plasma Pistol and Power Swords. Make it so that such upgrades are allowed on individual squad leader / commander level instead.

-- Transports should accomodate a certain number of units instead of squad(s).

-- Increase the role of morale somehow.

-- Scrap the current infiltration system and go back to the infiltration the way it was in DoW/WA.

-- Re-designed stances (see above):

-- Make accuracy depend on actual distance. Or at least appy this to pistol-type weapons such that there's no accuracy penalty whatsoever at very close range (why would all of those sluggas miss at point blank?).

-- Rethink Fire On The Move nerf please please.

-- Add a menu option to make firing ranges visible for infantry squads. Like red circle for basic weapons, orange circle for flamers, blue for plasma, etc.

What would you not change?

-- Squad formations just don't belong here. (Later thought: But ability to determine which direction a squad should face would be nice. Like in Mark of Chaos.)

-- Experience and veterancy really don't belong here. (You don't have to agree with me on this one :-). See Veterancy in DoW 2 (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=188271) thread.)

-- Splitting and merging squads don't belong here for balancing reasons.

-- Squad should never be built in full size. (Later thought: Can I take that back please? I am not so sure anymore.)

-- Squad should never be built with pre-equipped heavy weapons. (Later thought: Unless these are specialized heavy support squads like devastators and havoks.)



I hope that most of these items are still valid in DoW II context. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

[zakublazer]

I dunno about not letting people disengage.

This will make ASM and raptors insanely powerful with their jump pack they almost never take too much fire on the way and if the game is altered as your proposal say jon they will be way too overpowered. They would jump in and CC any ranged units who won't be able to fight back properly and can't runaway without a huge amount of damage.

I think a charge attack should be given to all melee specialists something akin to feral leap but different unit can have something different, ie berserkers do huge morale damage or dreads instankill one of the squad member. but after that the ranged squad should still be able to run away from the CC specialist without further penalty.
To fix the problem of CC unit never getting a hit, you could set it so that damage is dealt before the animation so that once a faster unit get in range, it WILL do damage.

Also with the likely inclusion of pinning mechanics, unit might get a speed penalty when they are being shot at, so that should allow faster unit ASM/raptor which have bolt pistols to somewhat pin the unit and catch up. To balance this, unit should have an option to ignore pinning but take 300% more ranged damage. Just my two cents

[Fightingfirst]

@Wrapper:Yeah a guardsmen might be happy to relocate with his flash light until he gets a bloody great axe in between the shoulder blades for turning his back on the enemy. So you think after just seeing his buddy ripped apart by an ork the guardsmen is gonna think oh yay im relocating. No! He's going to be thinking holy $#!1 im running away with a 7 foot plus hulking monster on my tail. So i think they should suffer damage for running away becasue they are retreating in the heat of battle which will means mistakes so peole will die. Secondly, they will be terrified (they are only human). So they should take a loss in morale becasue they are not withdrawing calmly they are running for their lives.

[Wrapper]

Somehow I think that most guardsmen would run real fast in this situation. Lest a commissar stops them dead in their tracks. That, and Nobs are slower.

[creepiest dani]

@TheLoneKnight

There are almost certainly better ideas than these, of course, but these are the only ones that occur to me offhand. Well, except for causing charging melee units to inflict more significant damage, meaning that extended dancing actions are likely to result in several charge hits which, in turn, cost you quite a few units.@jon_the_d

in TT (iirc), if you want to break away from CC, you basically have to risk your units life (as you turn your back to run and stop paying attention to their weapons, makes sense), so apart from what TLK said in his last paragraph, any hits landed when the unit is running away (i.e: not fighting back, should be easy enough to work out coding wise?), should get a damage bonus, perhaps as much as 200%.

This would mean that to try to break away from CC, to cut and run, would be a pretty risky option. Then coupled with what TLK said in his last paragraph, they're only likely to get engaged again anyway. much better to stay and do your best, and hope some of your buddies come to your rescue!

btw, I'm talking here about ALL CC, not just the bigger units. I mean squads and characters..everything. IF you make your guard turn their backs on the banshees they're in CC with, you should expect to see a lot of your guards have powerswords sticking through their chest, or air where their heads used to be.

I think this would effectively solve the sillyness that is dancing, and would make the whole CC thing more realistic.I couldn't agree more with the above. I love TheLoneKnight's idea of charging melee units inflicting more significant damage with the first attack, and I love jon_the_d's idea of disengaging from melee being a risky affair. Disengaging could cause some kind of "attack of opportunity" from the opponent, an attack that inflicts significantly more damage and even has a small chance of causing a critical hit which kills the unit outright. That's the price you have to pay for turning your back to the opponent.


@jon_the_d

What with the steps to more advanced realism (destructability, cover, pinning? etc.) it would make sense that they might address the problem of units being able to be shot at when they're in CC, without any risk of Friendly Fire.

Personally, I don't like it. Troops in CC should certainly not be as vulnerable and easy to hit as when they're standing in the open.

To try to pick out your target in a frantically fast brawl, making sure you don't hit your own men, would be nigh on impossible, with people spinning round and changing positions as they duck and dive and lunge and swing, you'll be doing well enough to track your target, let alone work out where it'll be when your shot will reach it. and also workin gout on top of that that none of your own guys are going to step into your line of fire.

correct me if I'm wrong, but in TT you're not allowed to shoot at units engaged in CC?I'd also like to see something done about units being able to be shot at when in CC without any risk of friendly fire, but given the fact that DoW 2 is an RTS game in the vein of CoH, I think it's reasonable to assume it isn't the case. So we'd have to come up other ways of limiting it.

I'm thinking of the following abstractions:
What if ranged units were able to shoot at those engaged in melee only from a very short distance? This means you'd only be able to help a squad that is tied in melee by bringing another squad very close, almost to the point of being in melee themselves, thus exposing them. Another idea is if units engaged in melee are behind cover, both you and the opponent to benefit from the cover bonus. This way you could attack the enemy with your Raptors behind cover, but you wouldn't be able to provide direct fire support from range because of the cover, which would encourage the use of smarter tactics. But this second idea could already be in, who knows.

[Cadian Guard]

This idea of penalizing units attempting to disengage from CC is good but i think this will make jumping units OP.
Yah i can put all my ranged units in "safe" areas and end up being rushed by jumpers that just leap right on em. I can prepare for the foot slogging troops, but when up against something like a stromboy that can jet over all obstacle and right ontop of my guys it will be a massacre. Regardless if i have CC units nearby the damage will be done even if i send a close by CC unit to assist.

also i like how your earlier post was very biased towards banshess jon...considering nobz (in TT) have higher strength (which can be increased by 2 with the use of big choppas), toughness, attacks, and more wounds. Couple this with eavy armour and they have the same saves. Banshess just have a higher initiative and leadership and balistic skill. Same goes for striking scorpions (cept they have a better save). Note im comparing stats not special abilities (just straight up WS,BS,W,T,S etc)

"If you've seen any half decent kungfu sword fight movie you should have some idea of what I'm talking about."

kung fu movies rely on artisitc exaggerations mixed with mysticism and alot of posturing(i have seen hero and....damn i cant remeber it very...maybe it was the house of flying daggers). If you have a better suggestions please say. I highly doubt a banshee or a striking scorpion would waste energy posturing with their "kung fu skillz" and just make it quick with a dodge a stab across the gut.

[Sturmtruppen]

well, as long as melee units can swing on the move, and not miss all the time, it will solve about half of the melee problems in DoW, rear armor for infantry would be awesome too for both ranged and melee combat... locking them in combat is nice too... half of the game should be melee lol

[ironclawed1]

Dancing was the killer of DOW for me! poor game play like dancing is the reason I wont come back! Good luck DOW2.

[Imperial Honour]

Does everyone forget there will be garrisonable buildings as well in Dawn of War 2 or something, sure we haven't seen what all the maps will be like but no mellee units are going to be able to force you to retreat until the building is about to collapse or something.

[Sturmtruppen]

they'll probably be able to attack the building tho, if not given building clearing abilities

[Imperial Honour]

Yeah, however while your troops happen to be garrisoned in that building you do not have them in mellee, from my current understanding of what I have happen to have read in several previews, which means you'll be firing back with all weapons blazing while they try and literally tear down the house or force you out of it.

[Blackheart]

We don't know if they will have a house invasion mechanic yet.

[ImmortalChaos]

We do know it would be hilarious to watch.

[Blackheart]

I'd love to see a space marine shove an ork carcass out of a window, personally! Or see a nob slam an eldar through a wall, OUT of the building.

[akuma85]

I'd love to see a force commander doing stone cold stunner as a sync kill. Or better the sergeant of an assault marine squad, he could use his jet pack to jump higher.

[SenisterDenister]

If there was a building cleansing melee function, I'd find it very interesting to say the least. Imagine, if you will, dozens of cultists housed up in a crumbling Schola building, and they have the entrance heavily barricaded. So, the marines crash through the walls throwing the cultists out the holes they left into the street and subsequently mow them down.

Needless to say, it would be awesome.

[Ir0nlaK]

As already said, the massive AoE attacks done by huge CC units like the DP, avatar etc, should be stronger if anything. A massive three-meter long flaming sword doesn't knock you over, it cleaves you in half. The average guardsman would NOT survive.

[s33k]

I would rather see some sort of "flush out" mechanic or melee fights can be taken indoors. Rather than say Sluggas just beating the base of the building till it falls over. Not to mention we are not sure about any super units such as the BT, DP, Avatar, Squig, so not much say there on what they will be like.
But the idea of units that are retreating from CC, can take extra damage is awesome.

[Versian]

If giant units like the Blood Thirster are hacking at a building, I'd like to see the buildings' parts fly off like they did in Age of Empires 3.

[Sachiel]

I thought this was already implemented but, I agree that knockback damage should be enhanced.

[craNk]

In Dow1 there are 2 Big problems with Meele vs Ranged.

Rangeduntis that are Engaged can run away and take barely any Damage.

Solution? Let Meele-Units stun the Rangedunits for 1-2 seconds if they reach combat. After that the ranged could run again but if they again get to close, wham, again stunned for 1-2 sec.

Dancing would still have a use, but it wouldn't completly dominate... And BTW: DANCING IS NOT HARD.

---

Squad shooting on enemy CC Squad that is in Combat with another Squad. This together with Dancing makes CC just inferieur to Range. Friendlyfire (naturally not 100%, instead of the enemy taking 100% of the damage he would take 70% and your own units 30% or something) would solve this.

[Noble]

Rangeduntis that are Engaged can run away and take barely any Damage.

True, but they also aren't dealing any damage. The idea behind tying up units in melee combat is to nullify the combat advantage the ranged unit provides on the battlefield. This frees up your other units to complete whatever objectives they need to complete without getting mowed down by long range fire.

Dancing is great, but you have to remember that not only does it render the dancing unit ineffectual on the field, it also requires your opponent to devote a fair amount of their attention to keep that unit dancing. Meanwhile all you've done is issue an attack order.

There's also any number of ways to exploit a dancing opponent. Limit where they can move with things like mines, artillery, or even other units. Try and force them to dance into your line of fire. Try using a second melee unit to pin them in. There's all kinds of creative ways to exploit someone who thinks they're hot shit just because they can run away from a squad of sluggas.

[Sturmtruppen]

well melee should have a better role, not just scare away some firewarriors, i think most people would want to see actual meleeing, not just chase things around

[Noble]

You can get into actual meleeing by

A: Forcing the unit into melee. Don't let it just run away from you, force it towards another unit or obstacle and pin it in.

B: Meleeing other melee units.

You talk about scaring away firewarriors like it's a trivial act. Back when I played vanilla DoW, the Eldar banshees were key to my strategy. I would let those pesky SM squads and shoota boys dance my banshees around and I would then either pin them in with another squad or mow them down with my own troops. There are plenty of ways to use melee units effectively and plenty of ways to force enemy ranged units to engage with you. You just have to be creative and use all of the tools at your disposal.

In any case, I don't doubt that units in DoW2 will have abilities similar to "Fire it up" or "Fleet of Foot" that will allow quick melee units to close the gap with ranged units quickly and do a lot of damage.

[Deacon412]

yea melee should have its ups n downs but not be totally inferior to ranged

[Versian]

Melee troops have several advantages over Ranged. They are either stronger on a unit per unit basis in terms of strength or health, or they are faster or they are invisible or something. I don't consider melee units inferior you just have to know how to use them.

[ImmortalChaos]

Yeah, melee units in general tend to have far more damage/cost, far mroe HP/cost, and some other perk like increased movement speed, jumps, or speed boosts.

Combine this with spells that trap squads in place and melee units are fully capable of being just as destructive as ranged ones in any game.

[Cadian Guard]

also remember that FWs cant shoot on the move so the more you make em dance the more they cant shoot.

Does anyone here have problems with the knockback that some heroes (FC,Warboss, BM) have...its disruptes them but the hero ends up having to chase after them

[Kien]

The weird thing in DOW with knockback is that they can not be attacked when knockbacked.

[Blackheart]

Melee troops will be good, because of cover. force the enemy to either acccept melee, or get out of cover and be cut down by your ranged attackers.

[akuma85]

@kien

In dow, some weapons actually hit knockback unit (like SS fusion cannon in DC)

[Sturmtruppen]

only some, most will stop, so its still kinda weird when everyone stops firing just to wait for him to get up, then fire a billion bullets into him lol

[akuma85]

That's the funniest part of dow, units kills with extreme violence but most of them are extremely polite:
- they don't shoot when you're down
- they let vehicle pass first
It's 40k, it's dark, grim and there's always war but keep it civil :hug:

Hopefully, we wont see it in dow2.

[Sturmtruppen]

the infantry collision in DoW is pretty badass... extremely annoying when the path is narrow lol, somebody always gets stuck behind a tank

[Ghost Sniper]

Maybe units in melee should get locked into it unless they use 'Retreat' or 'withdraw' and run to the nearest strat point, or a short distance away? Meh, probably a bad idea.

[s33k]

I like the idea of retreating, but to a strategic point? I mean what if you and your enemy are fighting over a point you enemy controls, you break their morale, yet they just keep hitting the retreat button to break the morale effect.*

*Ok I made this point based on CoH's retreat option, and the fact that DoW uses morale, just a speculation, but I'm just throwing that out there.

[Blackheart]

The devs have made comments on suppression in DoW2 (specifically how Space Marines and other races will treat suppression differently) . Wether or not there's a morale meter, Id on't know, but suppression as it is in CoH is in, in some aspect or other.

[ImmortalChaos]

I really hope we wont have to deal with a retreat button and the like. I'd much rather be able to tell my troops where to go at any time.

[Sturmtruppen]

thats assuming that you can still move when you are suppressed... in CoH thats basically not possible... the whole point of suppression is limit movement

[Noble]

It'll be interesting to see how the suppression mechanic will work with melee units, since there was no melee at all in CoH. I'm really looking forward to pinning down some pesky Astartes and then charging into melee with my sluggas. I think the pinning could be yet another check against the all-mighty dancing that people have such a problem with.

The jump troops might the make pinning mechanic fucking deadly. I can see massacring an expensive, tricked out squad of marines by simply pinning them with my shootahs and then jumping right into the action with my storm boyz.

I'm really excited about this amalgamation of DoW1 and CoH mechanics.

[timlxq]

Wouldn't this make melee, especially jump troops too overpowered? People will end up only using jump units and one or two ranged squads for the pinning. I don't play CoH but i understand from the word 'pin' that it makes the opponent slow or even immobile. It would work in a game without melee as no one can make use of this speed nuff to hit you and render you useless, but in DoW1 and 2 where most units do both melee and ranged damage, the slowed RC units can't run, can't fight, and are only left to die.

Maybe these jump troops have to slow down in mid air to prepare for landing, giving the ranged dudes a chance to run, without getting the retreat penalty or charge bonus damage, while the ASMs and stormboyz are preparing for landing.
Certain CC units can also have an 'intercept' ability, much like a taunt, to force the enemy to attack that squad, allowing the RC squad to flee without a damage penalty.

@ the first post
Although the melee relic units taking out whole squads is realistic and should be put in, as a house sized flaming sword and a giant axe pretty much would be able to lob the heads of 10 people at one go or even more and should be able to cleave entire buildings, that would really mean a one daemon show. Anything which has >10k health and is able to kill anything in a single hit definitely can win the game for you on its own.

I think that such units should give up their ridiculous size and really should be about the size of a dreadnought or at most a land raider.

[Blackheart]

More than likely, Jump troops take something akin to negative cover modifiers when jumping.

When in negative cover, units are easier to suppress, easier to hit, take more damage, etc. So perhaps while jumping they'd be easier to hit and take more damage, making it so that you have to use their jumping ability intelligently. At the very least, it would recieve something similar to "no cover" modifiers.

[The Legate]

Graphics and Physics for CC

Has anyone noticed that structures don't seem solid enough against CC? Bloodthirster does a sweep and it passes right through the structure? Maybe the ax can make a visible scratch, dent or gap in the wall. Not the "ghost ax" effect where it sweeps right through without any hindrance.

So basically my point is that CC should be more solid. Solid bodies and structures that feel like the material being penetrated. How does SM "knives" go through armour? They just flail wildly and it comes out as sparks (on armour), but that is damage.

I doubt anyone will just stand there and get hit (maybe SM), but an IG is vulnerable. Maybe some ducking, feinting, etc. DPS could work, but maybe a critical strike rule. Where an IG gets the blade in a joint, etc. does damage like that or DPS and occasional critical strike.

Retreating for CC

On the retreating subject... Aren't there two types of retreating? Full-out chicken run (really fast movement and evasion, but takes more straight damage) and the cover-fire retreat. Maybe when you retreat, you have the full-out chicken run option and the CF retreat (race specific. Highly trained army does a more professional retreat even if it's a chicken run). For CF retreat, sacrifice some guys to hold the CC in place while the others retreat then they turn and give some extra cover to the surviving guys in CC for a chance to make a break.

The enemy gets a defense bonus against range, but hampered movement, so the retreating guys can run under fire. There is always the possibility of an instant unit kill while retreating, but not the whole squad (1 to 4 stragglers depending on race).

There is always some type of sacrifice involved.

[Blackheart]

Actually... using the Essence Engine, the full blown retreat back to base makes you take less damage (as the infantry units involved gain reduced incoming accuracy modifiers, but you lose control of them as they run back to base). Helps unit survival if you learn how to use it properly.

[Infidelicious]

Retreating may or may not function like it does in CoH.

[Blackheart]

While true, we do know that such a feature is indeed in DoW2. If it is to be changed or taken out (given that suppression is still in, it being taken out is incredibly unlikely), we don't know, so it is best to assume it isn't until we hear otherwise.

[Infidelicious]

It might be different for different races. SM may retain "Rally" but not have the ability to retreat... That way you can use it to disengage, or find better cover; However if you tried to use it like Fire-up, it would be cooling down if you got suppressed again, and you would probably lose the squad.

I just have to say I'd be disappointed if I saw SM running flat out away from combat like units do in CoH.

Orks may retain a retreat function similar to CoH, but the Warboss / Big Mek might have a WAGGGH! ability, akin to Heroic Charge.

[Blackheart]

All of which, at this point, is speculation. They haven't said anything about the retreat mechanic in specific.

[illidan155]

I would rather see some sort of "flush out" mechanic or melee fights can be taken indoors. Rather than say Sluggas just beating the base of the building till it falls over. Not to mention we are not sure about any super units such as the BT, DP, Avatar, Squig, so not much say there on what they will be like.
But the idea of units that are retreating from CC, can take extra damage is awesome.


i agree that is not a bad ideas

[G for Greta]

Whatever they end up doing, hopefully it's far and away closer to CoH than DoW1. Melee in DoW1 was very lackluster and, really, revolved around making melee units useful for little more than dancing while (hopefully) your ranged units actually do the killing. It was very unsatisfying indeed.

[killer-ra]

But there is absolutely no melee in CoH, so what exactly are you looking for? Less melee in general isn't going to happen.

[Busby]

Well in CoH Riflemen are arguably melee units, having to get in close to Volks if they want to win, barring upgrades. So I think what he means is that he wants "melee" like CoH. You can't kite in CoH with infantry, which I do think is good.

If you don't want your ranged units fighting hand to hand you put a dedicated melee unit in front of them.

[Mullertime]

God no... I hope against all hopes that we don't have a 'retreat' button... every time a unit gets engaged in CC, I don't want to hit a bloody button that makes my units run all the way back to my HQ... :p

Now, with regards to sorting out CC... some simple-ish solutions here:

1: Moving CC Moves
One of the few things that Battle for Middle Earth did very well. CC moves... on the move!
As I once found out to my horror, why trying to flee a weakened commander... the enemy followed, but kept chopping me as it ran (Without stopping). So even though I tried to flee, the pursuer continued... and continued to inflict damage
Something like this will take care of dancing easily. Instead of a stationary attack move, units should also have mobile ones. Therefore, so long as your unit has => speed than the enemy, you will keep hitting them!


Let units melee on the move instead of stopping altogether whenever they go to swing their weapon
Basically this :)

2: Damage Bonus
This idea has already been mentioned a few times, and I think it's an excellent one :)
Extra damage dealt if you are engaged in CC, but not fighting yourself (Whether you are running away, or for some reason, running through/past the enemy squads)

Coding wise... this should be very easy. Basically, if the unit is not performing a CC animation (Thus: protecting themselves), they take more damage from CC attacks

To be really honest... this should sort out the CC problem, without making it overly powerful (E.g: A team of CC specialists can suddenly take on several ranged squads)... and also keeps dancing as a relatively viable tactic still (Just harder to employ properly)

[Thuraash]

Mullertime, I've been all for chasing CC moves from the start. The CC system really doesn't feel complete when units can't punish the opponent for pulling units out of CC while they were fighting.

[killer-ra]

Ranged units take more damage when I dance them is like punishing me for having micro. I'm all for melee animations for damage against moving targets, but I'm opposed to damage bonuses against fleeing troops. In that scenario, how does a ranged squad survive?

[StarMaverick]

So long as your ranged keep a safe distance in the first place, the enemy shouldn't be able to hit you.

Now if you saw the enemy charge towards you, engage in close combat, and THEN you retreated, I think that punishing you for not keeping your troops safe is reasonable.

[TheLoneKnight]

Killer-ra, remember that Relic has confirmed suppression is in this game. That's a huge advantage ranged units have right there; a charging group of melee units can get suppressed before even reaching you, completely negating their capabilities.

Hopefully Melee units will have awesome abilities to either get into combat more easily or be substantially more effective while there.

[Mad Onion]

One of the possible disadvantages of melee-on-the-move is that it might look stupid. I thought the melee-on-the-move from Battle for Middle-Earth worked quite nicely, but the animations looked awkward (as opposed to the standing melee, which looked acceptable).

I would like to see this addressed, though, because the dancing and the melee units not doing any damage at all in DoW1 was---as mentioned---at the very least "unsatisfying".

[Asiriya]

Kinda related; anyone else feel it looked strange having the extreme kills initiate while the unit was taking heavy damage? Said unit should have been killed by fire but wasn't, meaning for a short time the unit is invulnerable. I hope some kind of interruption animations are included, though this could mean that the unit ends up dying because it cannot defend itself...

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Possibility: Graduated accuracy for pistol weapons depending on range. That way if you're running right behind someone, your ranged DPS is pretty decent. But you still get shot to death by gun units at range.

CoH had weapon range modifiers after all. No reason they can't be used in DOW2.

[Busby]

Killer-ra, remember that Relic has confirmed suppression is in this game. That's a huge advantage ranged units have right there; a charging group of melee units can get suppressed before even reaching you, completely negating their capabilities.

It works both ways. If one player suppresses the other's ranged units, they can send in melee without worrying about them being shot up. A space marine player might use his heavy bolters to suppress some shoota boyz and then either send his assault marines in via jetpack or have another squad move in close enough to throw a grenade or two and flank.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Well, that's why it's a good idea to make your stands in cover. Hard to get supressed. :)

[konfeta]

That's why there are anti-cover weapons and abilities in this game.

Wait, do you mean this game will require tactics instead of having your favorite unit type roll over all enemies? Teh Horror! Who would have known? I just wanted range and melee to be "balanced" by having melee totally roll over ranged at every circumstance!

Sarcasm aside, I think it should be simple. If generic ranged troops begin combat by opening fire at reasonably distanced generic melee troops, they should win. Develop balance, special abilities, introduce tactical options, and special units from there.

[G for Greta]

"Wait, do you mean this game will require tactics instead of having your favorite unit type roll over all enemies? Teh Horror! Who would have known? I just wanted range and melee to be "balanced" by having melee totally roll over ranged at every circumstance!"

I don't see how that automatically follows. DoW1's and CoH's main issues revolved around unit balance. Poor unit balance in DoW2 could easily minimize the importance of many of the on-paper exciting features they're eyeing for this game.

[Dragnarr]

I hope that there will be more stats associated with melee other than melee damage.

You could have all kinds of stats borrowed from RPG's to resemble how the unit fights. Eldar would have agile type of melee moves meaning they could dodge well and be good 1vs1, but would get hit more often the more enemies were surrounding them. Of course you'd then need special abilities which you could use to weaken/buff these stats that affect differently.

Sort of like melee specialization like there's ranged specialization.

[jon_the_d]

a new angle on melee (new to me at least):

a lowly guardsmen and a banshee exarch are locked in combat, how is it dealt with?

is it A (current mechanic):

The guardsmen isn't very good at CC and only does 12 DPS,
The banshee exarch is very good and does 60 DPS,

Banshee exarch wins having taken a small amount of damage.

or is it B (new mechanic, somewhat based on TT):

The guardsmen isn't very good at CC, he has a CC skill of 20.
The banshee exarch is very good at CC, she has a CC skill of 80.

A calculation is done every second (or half second), using their CC skills, and a random number generator, to see who, if any one, strikes a hit. If a hit is landed, damage is dealt, and the damage would be dependent on the unit and its weapon.

The combat continues, calculating which unit landed a hit, and taking damage away accordingly, until one unit is dead.

The banshee exarch wins, easily and very quickly, having taken no hits and no damage.

A lucky guardsmen might have got a couple of hits in, but this one wasn't lucky, and got slaughtered.

-

IF we had a CC mechanic where it took CC skill into account, and worked out which unit got a hit in, we'd have a version of CC which wasn't just units taking it in turn to hit each other. The truly skilled could take on many foes and come out without a scratch, or they could come out with a bit of damage.

Two similarly skilled units would have an epic duel, where every now and again a hit is landed, and quite a chunk of health taken out, who will strike the next hit is unknown, and who will be the ultimate victor, and with how much health remaining, is also unknown.

Instead of watching the steady decrease in two health bars boredly waiting for the lower one to run out, and already knowing exactly how much health the victor will have left, you are instead watching a frantic combat between two well matched opponents struggling to get the upperhand. who will win and by how much is unclear, and the combat is even more intense and nerve wracking beacause of it.
-

What do you think?

I like the idea that a unit who is totally outclassed might not even get a single hit in, and I like the idea that two evenly matched opponents could fight an epic duel, the outcome of which is uncertain.

it feels more like real combat to me.

Some people might prefer the predictable, stat based DPS, "lets take it in turns to hit each other. blocking? what's blocking?" approach. but I'd prefer a more nailbiting, realistic approach.

[darkpriest99]

I did not read the whole thread, but i like some of the ideas. AotM + bonus if your opponent is fleeing having his back wide open for your melee weapon stabbing and slashing and bashing. Still AotM should get penalty to the to-hit chance. I like the idea of different charge bonuses. I would even like to add extra bonus for the charge from behind on the already fighting units.

Frankly, in DoW it's a bit ridiculous that 3 RC squads can outdance 2 CC and take almost no punishment while the other is obliterated. Disengaging CC should have penalties unless you have a jump pack like Tau SS or a teleport device like Eldar WS.

[The Chaplain]

I've always thought that it would be a bit more fluffy and balanced if squads could only exit melee when down to either a certain squad number, 1/3 health, or when its morale was broken. Jump pack (or whatever) units exempt, of course.

[Zepheris]

i've seen great ideas so far here but something has been nagging me, some people in this thread claimed that the melee lock will cause jump troops to be OP... but iirc the dev themselves mentioned it in the E3 preview that jump troops can be shot out off the sky

so why can't they just balance it with an increased chance of being shot in the sky when they try to jump straight to an enemy troops that have been targeting and shooting them... so for example:

-if an ASM tries to jump straight towards a flash gitz that have been shooting them then there's a chance that a few of them may well die instantly in the air, a tradeoff that may be worth it if the unit can survive the casualties inflicted and end up locking the gitz in CC, but the same ASM may do the same thing onto a guardsmen unit and will probably survive the jump with minimal or no casualties since they are less vulnerable to lasguns.

similarly some complained that the increased damage taken in melee by units retreating from CC breaks the ranged and melee unit balance, but just from CoH experience alone it's plain to see that that should not be the case with some common sense and well thought design.

Short ranged weapons for instance in CoH does next to nothing dmg at medium to long range, but they are absolute killer if they can actually get close enough to their target so how does one stop these men from going around and murdering every troops in the game rambo style? Why that's why you have pinning in the game.

So taking cue from that, one way to balance the melee being very strong would be to do exactly CoH have done and pin the unit if they are taking significant fire in a short time or if they are taking high pin weapon fire. This will let properly set ranged units to inflict large casualties on melee units foolish enough to try and charge them blindly across open ground, but will still allow a player who can take advantage of the terrain or using diversion to pull the attention away from the CC unit to turn the tide with a carefully planned assault.