[SS1.0] Stealthsuit EMP Grenades

[ImmortalChaos]

Alright guys, here is an issue that has been bothering me like crazy for a while and have been stalling about making a thread because it seems there are a lot of mixed views about it.

The problem:
Tau have a very powerful anti vehicle game in T2. Stealthsuits are simply awsome with very good mobility, infiltration (which combined with their jumps makes them near unkillable) high HPs for a unit with jumps+infiltration, and high damage. Broadsides are quite the opposite, not very moble at all but with obscene damage. In soulstorm, the baracuda adds another AV option with the best mobility in the tau army and over 200 DPS to boot. This is all fine and dandy.

However, on top of all that, there is the stealthsuit EMP This pushes tau AV effectiveness over the edge IMHO. Its fruiting crazy. It makes vehicles a near suicidal choice against tau. They are simply going to wtfpwn your vehicles, unless you out tech them by an obscene ammount of time, and even then the moment they are T2, your vehicles are done.



Suggested solutions:

Option 1:
*Put the SS shas'vre EMP in T3. Either path can use it normally.

Option 2:
*AoE reduced to 5
*Stun time reduced to 8 seconds
*Throw range reduced to 15


In either case:
*Modifiers adjusted so the grenade disables general combat thus removing the ability of walkers to do special attack damage while stunned




...
Some notes before people continue to make misinformed and biased posts:

*SS are not fragile. They have 500 HP a pop after buying the shas'vre, and he is the first thing any competant tau player is going to byu for their SS in T2. With jumps and infiltration that 500 HP goes a very long way for keeping these guys around forever.

*They are not extremely expensive. Yes, it costs 420/10 for a full squad of only 4 members- but that squad has well over 2000 HP, 200 DPS, jumps, invisibility, very high FoTM, AND the crazy 15 second AoE stun that I'm making the thread about!

*They are not piss-poor without their fusion blaters. With the full set of SS upgrades (BCE and TL) and the standard FW upgrade, they deal 15 DPS to infantry_med and high, and 13 DPS to heavy_med. Nothing extreme but definately impressive.

*They are certainly not tau's only AV option (read: imbacuda with over 200 DPS for a tiny cost) and tau certainly dont rely on the EMP to survive. In T3/T4 mabey against spammed tanks... but wait, they'll have the exact same EMP by then.

[chelovek_veliki]

Well they don't HAVE any other mobile AV in T2, do they?

[Heathen]

Stealthsuits are VERY weak HP-wise. And very expensive for such a small squad.
If you have a detector (and if you don't have one by tier 2, shame on you), you can easily swat them, even before they manage to jump away. Remember, that their range (upgraded) isn't very high, either.
I don't think Stealthsuits need nerfing.

As for Broadsides, they can be easily swarmed by lots of small units. Also, remember that they cost THREE pop cap, for ONE single unit. Balanced, imho.

HOWEVER, I agree with you on Barracudas. They're my lone number 1 choice for vehicles for Tau and that fact alone suggests imba. They're perfect vehicle- and turret-hunters. Usually, I hide them behind my FW and only bring them out if I need to take an attacking vehicle down.

[ImmortalChaos]

Stealthsuits have 500 HP people.

That is hardly weak. It is in fact more than most T2 AV starts out with, more than some T2 AV will ever achive, and they also come standard with jumps and infiltration. Stealthsuits are easily one of the toughest units in th game and there is litterally no excuse for letting them die once you have the shas'vre HP bonus.

[Heathen]

Actually, they have 250 by default and 450 with the Ethereal. But that ain't tier 2, is it?
Also, the fact remains that they're very expensive. Their default weapon is piss-weak (has higher range) and the Fusion Blaster is another 50 req (has smaller range but better damage).

[ImmortalChaos]

The shas'vre adds 250 HP to evey member in the squad including himself. That's 700 HP with the ethereal.

[DeadlyFred]

There's also only 3 of them + leader. And they are pretty much utterly useless unless you do upgrade their weapons.

[ImmortalChaos]

Yeah, and with the upgrades they do as much damage as a tac missle, with decent range (28) and have rediculously good FoTM. SS are damn good units. But they are not why I'm here.

Its that damned EMP that allows T2 vehicles no escape. Its far, far too punishing for T2, especially when you consider how good tau's T2 AV is, and all the FoTM it has.

[Heathen]

@ edited post above: The jumppacks are another upgrade (but it's pretty cheap, yeah).

But I have to repeat myself: The price is enormous!
A squad costs 440 req and 40 energy and that's just 3 Stealthsuits, the Shas'vre and the Fusion Blasters. None of the (cheap) upgrades included.

[ImmortalChaos]

65 req for 500 HP? That's better than a tac marine!

[Heathen]

Remember that the default gun is weaker than the IG's red flashlights.
Calculate with 115.

[ImmortalChaos]

And then you have to take the tac + missle into consideration, and it STILL has extremely impressive HP for cost when compared to a non jumping non infiltrating non firing on the move unit.

Note: with burst cannon enhancements and some other upgrades, SS's have a nice ~10-15 DPS to infantry. Not extremely good but definately worth consideration when you say "they have less damage than the lasgun"

[mlai]

I'm happy as long as the imbacuda gets its insane av dps nerfed. :)

[Skif]

Agreed on EMP. Tau do not need it in T2 for competitive AV, and it prevents any sort of veh rush against them. Anything that limits strat choices is bad in my book.

[Hawillis]

Ignore burst cannon enhancements. They are never worth it.
Yes tau AV is strong. I could stomach some nerfs.
Whilst you say vehicles are suicide though, on the other hand they can be instant win. If say IG reaches HHs before tau AV is ready; game over man.
Dont forget that their armor type blows when you say 500hp however!

Over on sanct though, some top players suggested limiting SS to 1 leader + 2SS per unit as a nerf. You might want to consider that instead.

[ImmortalChaos]

HHs are imba and they do that to everyone :p

IMO the biggest problem is the damned EMP and not their damage/durability, so I dunno about a change like that. TBH I rarely reinforce the squad to full as is, just get the leader only and a FB for the starting member. Plenty of top players (servant) doesnt even bother with the exta FB and just spams the imba shas'vre.

[Zany Reaper]

Solution - don't use vehicles against Tau in Tier 2. Ever wondered why Tau have such a good anti-vehicle selection, yet fall flat down against swarms of melee troops?

That's why. A group of melee troops supported by infantry will screw tau over in Tier 2. Even imperial guard can compete by running in armies of priests supported by guardsmen.

So you generally don't need tanks to take on Tau in Tier 2, EMP or not.

But I can't say I really care if EMP was shifted to tier 3. You're unlikely to see vehicle armies in Tier 2 anyhow, unless your opponent is an arsehole.

[ImmortalChaos]

So back when fire warriors were overpowered in DC 1.0, the solution would obviously be not to use infantry against them? That is a terrible argument.

Also, wtflol tau losing to melee? Not by any competant player, no.

[Chaingun]

"Don't use vehicles vs Tau in T2".

That would be very bad for the tactical diversity of game... And, my T2 infantry tends to get pwned by Tau FW mass, so I really want to use some vehicles (like transports). Thus, I don't really consider this a good argument against the proposed change.

Delaying EMP to T3 means T2 vehicles will have a slightly higher chance of retreating. In the case of the 'cuda it won't make a lot of difference because it'll hunt you down anyway, regardless of SS EMPing, but at least vehicles will be able to get away from the SS (who still have jump to cut off retreat).

[ImmortalChaos]

And very high FoTM for when they're out of jumps.

[D-coy]

It really needs some fixing. Maybe reducing the duration time of the stun or replacing it with a movement speed decrease?

Every time SSs catch a vehicle that is not supported by a half army (can happen) that vehicle is as good as dead. It does not have a fighting chance.

Cheers

[ImmortalChaos]

I think simply putting it in T3 is perfectly fine.

[D-coy]

Yeah, could work. They can have Markerlight in tier 2 for Christ's sake!

Cheers

[Pocktio]

Don't let him get to tier 2. Mass up and take down his eco then get heavy weapons or melee troops to tie up FW while your mass shoots them.

[ImmortalChaos]

Again, that's a useless argument. You can't just "not let them get to T2". It doesnt work that way. A good player will be able to get to T2 90% of time.

[Mosh4Life]

SS are fine =]
Wots this bout them bein ok agenst infantry
Its worse than piss poor
Its had a whole squad of SS shootin at GM and I killed 1
After a minute
Great DPS there >_>

As for the EMP
Its fine in T2
Wanna stop your tanks goin boom
Put a detector close
IIRC the range on the grenade aint too big
Should spot the SS and turn em into Tau Jam =]

I think theyre fine

IMBacuda though is not
That needs a tap with the old nerf stick
And make its refire rates constant =]

My take on things

Mosh4Life =]

[Varsis]

I'd more than anything like to see EMP lose its AoE. I could never understand why that was necessary. There will always be multiple SS in a tau army, and the AoE essentially eliminates vehicles as a counter to Tau mass.

[Pocktio]

Ok...when I mentioned that it's impossible to stop people getting to tier 2 like that I got told to get out. Guess it is a problem then. Maybe make the EMP cost 35 power like snares?

[WDI]

Ignore burst cannon enhancements. They are never worth it.

That s actually not true, you can do some competitive BO with them. Iirc there is a rep of santiago using them to good effect (in T1 of course).

I dont remember the MU, but it can be usefull, although on some limited cases.

[ImmortalChaos]

SS are fine =]
Wots this bout them bein ok agenst infantry
Its worse than piss poor
Its had a whole squad of SS shootin at GM and I killed 1
After a minute
Great DPS there >_>
Yeah, its damage sucks. At the beginning. Their inital DPS to guardsmen is 3.2. After some upgrades... 16.4.


As for the EMP
Its fine in T2
Wanna stop your tanks goin boom
Put a detector close
IIRC the range on the grenade aint too big
Should spot the SS and turn em into Tau Jam =]
Uhm, theres 500 HP and 2 jumps in the way of that tau jam.

And the problem is not so much the range of the stun, its the duration and cheapness of it combined with the obscene DPS numbers tau AV dishes out.

[Pocktio]

I think either making it a research like every other grenade and/or a cost per throw is sensible.

[corncobman]

Yes to research, no to cost per throw.

[ImmortalChaos]

T3 research mabey ;)

[TheMiracul]

Why nerfing Tau again? if u make this weaker then make something more poferful...
Or try to use detectors + infantry... omg is it that hard to counter them???
I say no to making tau even weaker.... (tankbustaz and fragons are mroe imba btw.)

if u realy need some sort of nerf, than make it stun max. 1-2 targets at a time... For example look at DoWPro how it works there

[ImmortalChaos]

Did you even read the OP?
I suggested a damage buff to the shas'vre to compensate. And detectors countering stealthsuits? They sure would if the SS didnt have 500 HP and 2 jumps.

You sound very biased in your post. Whats so bad about nerfing tau? They need it. Theyre still one of the strongest races in the game.

[Pocktio]

This is discussing Tau, not other races. Tau are probably one of the most 'imba' races in SS at the moment. They have incredibly powerful anti infantry and anti tank. You have to research melta bombs for asm and research beefy weapons for the seargant yet for tau the shas'ui gets a fusion blaster AND an emp grenade.....its just a bit off really. It makes their av too easy almost, every other race you have to predict and adapt to possible vehicles but for tau your av is just sitting there so its alot easier.

[TheMiracul]

500 hp with medium inf. armour is much, for 440/50resources?! u must be kiding :D
imagine what else u could get for that... +jetpack upgrade +targeting upgrade to make em usefull...
No need to make shas'vre powerfuller, instead finaly give better hp regen to units like knarloc, krotox, Xv88 and X88...
I like the way emp grenade works but ok, make it a single target stuner.....

P.S.: Tau are not overpowered at all, they are kinda balanced in comparison to lets say eldars or sisters...

[_McGr3g_]

P.S.: Tau are not overpowered at all, they are kinda balanced in comparison to lets say eldars or sisters...
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
srry dude, u have no idea. watch conflict x. how many csm/sm/sob/crons there were in whole tourney and how many taus/eldars/de. i gave u evidence why tau is op, now u give me why they are not.

[Chaingun]

Every Tau-related post TheMiracul makes is based on the presumption that nothing is wrong/imba with this race.

[KotCR]

So you generally don't need tanks to take on Tau in Tier 2, EMP or not.
Yes you do, especially if you plan to melee...with Imperial Guard in particular.

That's because if you want to even get your infantry close to the Tau, you need to use transports if they don't have jumpjets or teleports themselves. Otherwise, by the time you get close enough to melee, your army will be vastly outmatched anyway.

Stealth Suits have been imba for a long time...but it's been touched upon before. But now with the imbaCuda there really is no excuse for it...and even if the Barracuda got nerfed, it wouldn't alter the fact SS are too powerful anyway.

[Gabriel]

Given how easily they can be spammed (not to mention how much ranged AV damage the Tau can deal with any of several units, including stealth teams), there's no reason for EMP grenades to be way better than the orks' single Tank Zappa. The AoE and 15 second duration are pure overkill; the former should be removed and the latter reduced to 10.

[bman3k]

And here I was thinking I was just bad for not being able to properly use vehicles vs Tau. I agree with making it T3, people say use detectors, but what vehicles detect? Yeah, I could put detectors upfront, but isn't that where my vehicles are supposed to be to tank?

Nerf Tau :).

[mlai]

Imbacudas can destroy tier 3/4 vehicles faster than you can shift-type "F U TAU SMIRF." Nerf cudas first.

[steel_tomatoes]

When I think of it, I am pretty hesitant to do vehicles against Eldar or Tau prior to T3 or maybe T4. Most can agree Fragons need the nerf, maybe we can agree that something's gotta give for Tau as well...

EMP would still be useful in T3 but I think Tau player's would be pretty upset not having it in T2. A research cost to get EMP would be ok except isn't there enough upgrades for this single unit as it is?

Funny it took me towards the end of DC to realize that EMP had an AoE. I took out like 4 land speeders with it in a team game, was very lol. Helped us win somewhat but I was left thinking "I never knew this weapon had AoE - why does it need AoE? Its good enough without AoE".

I think you could take out the AoE without upsetting too many people (meaning it can target 1 vehicle only). If you do that and nerf the Barracuda a bit and add HP regeneration to Broadside/Crisis, tau will be looking a lot better.

[ImmortalChaos]

Actually, when I discussed it with people befoer making this thread, most were far more upset by the idea of removing it's aoe than bumping it back a teir.

As for the baraduca- IMO it's not as bad as its always made out to be. Sure, it's vehicle damage is just obscene at over 200 DPS (which could definately use a hefty nerf to about 150), butits very fragile and simply can't be spammed untill late game. It just needs a plain ol' damage reduction and its good to go,

[Heathen]

I wouldn't mind the SS EMP AoE removed. Usually, tanks aren't that close together and if they are, it's just a lucky shot.
Sure, if that is enough to put your mind at ease, remove the AoE!

As for the Barracuda: As I said before, I use it pretty much everytime!
Since it's Air, it's immune to melee, it doesn't get tangled up in units, it's extremely fast...
It's too good.
One other thing: I'd like to see the Barracuda limit removed. Why? Well, it's 5 anyway, so we reach the Vehicle Cap of 20. It doesn't really have any limiting effect to the amount of Barracudas we can build. BUT the limit makes it impossible to queue them up. I hate always having to go back to my base whenever one bites the dust. :D

[Hawillis]

Well to give you the background, the emp was nerfed in duration and had an increased cooldown.
It was argued that since flyers have such a massive impact on the game, SS should not recevive more nerfs because they were weak against flyers
1. EMP doesnt affect flyers
2. SS have short range; any flyer can get out of range rly rly easily.

Now tau does have the BS to stop flyers but having some in your base is not an idea solution because often flyers can find plenty of targets to shoot, and BS are expensive.

So really if your going to nerf emp; and I dont not-like Immortals SS leader suggestions :P then perhaps we can give the barracuda a little more anti air.
I mean its good value right now, but at 4 pop, it has to be good value because I must pay 300/100 just to get 2 of them! So it has high input costs.
Also it loses in air wars because it can be out spammed.

[Xanthian]

Dedicated anti-air air units?

Heh, if there weren't already so many of them, it might sound slightly less ridiculous. "Hey guys, in the expansion, we're going to introduce air units. And, yeah, if you want to kill them, you'll have to build air units." "What if we just want to destroy his base and army instead?" "Don't be an idiot. Everyone wants to kill air units. AIR UNITS!!!!!!!!11lll!!!LLone!!|||1!"

"So what about DoW 2?" "Oh, everyone will have to create underpants units. If your enemy's underpants touch your units, your units refuse to fight. And you can only fight underpants with underpants. UNDERPANTS!!"

Personally, I'd be looking at perhaps granting the *devilfish* some sort of anti-air role, if tau are even lacking it to begin with. (Fire warriors and markerlight melt *anything* as it is.) Most tau I see don't even bother building it unless they're using broadsides, and certainly if you're expecting to use broadsides to counter air, I don't see the harm in the devilfish helping out directly too. Failing that, there's no reason why the skyray can't be the tau anti-air vehicle of choice either.

Although, tau would then have a real problem countering barracudas themselves, since they *are* a fairly hard counter to devilfish and skyrays... hmm...

[4Servant]

20 sec aoe stun on 75 mineral unit (or w/e doesnt matter with tau 110+ eco anyway) that recharges fast kekekeke relic design FTW. Also it got huge casting range and its the plain imba in t4 tank fights making tau t4 nigh untouchable.

But I dont care relic fixes nothing anyway they never do and did :P. So better find a good tau mirror or a anti tau in order to compete.

[5Ssham]

Steel Tomatoes i like your tomatoes, keep t2, take away aoe stun and maybe reduce stun duration to 15 or something. Also reduce barracuda dps a little AND GIVE BROADSIDE DECENT REGENERATION.

[D-coy]

Give them 1 hp regen. They don't need more. Those things are ridicilous when "massed" (in campaign anyway).

Cheers

[Rotlung]

If it's a grenade, it's supposed to have AOE. Though I seriously don't care if they have AOE or not because nobody really clumps vehicles together, as had been mentioned earlier.

Cut duration? Maybe. But I'm more open to pushing it to T3. In T3, there would be many more vehicles to deal with so the EMP's relative boost to the fight would not be as great (unless you're talking about EMP-ing Baneblade. Hmm...). It's imba in T2 because vehicles aren't that common and the EMPs would effectively be crippling the enemy army quickly - and in T2, Tau would be running around with more than 1 SS squad.

Once it's in T3, it doesn't need a duration cut, of course, thanks to the no. of my SS squads against the no. of your vehicles.

Saying that you must buff something in return is the same old thing people have been saying about the Eldar. Which also means no (to re-buffing).

That's some two cents.

[mlai]

How many imbacudas you can have? FIVE???!

Each Cuda does as much damage as a fully-lazed Predator... and it friggin' flies. That is just so wrong.

[TheMiracul]

well but all baracudas together have nearly the same hp as one pred:P

[mlai]

Because it flies.
Only an idiot would allow his Cuda fleet to be destroyed.

[Sjeg]

SS are the weakest AV around - HP wise. They can take about the damg of 1 fully upgraded Guardsman in a squad with a priest and serg. ONE Guardsman... On the other hand they are the most expensive AV, even more expensive than an ML-TAC. To compensate they are invisible and have 2 jumps. If the enemy manages to detect the ss, which is far beyond impossible, the SS would be left with its 2 jumps - which is not enough to outtake vehicles. Sure you can say that Tau got other option and i agree with you this point but without emp ss would be to cost ineffective if detected.

[Mosh4Life]

I never knew that EMP was a AoE attack
Thats a bit unfair

Hence remove AoE
Balanced
Sorted

Theyre weak
Do sweet F.A to infanty
And once detected drop like flys
Theyre fine as they are
But AoE EMP is a bit unfair
Because CotMS isnt AoE
Think its only fair if its the same near enough to CotMS

Mosh4Life =]

[D-coy]

Having only moderate hps is a moot point since they can avoid being shotted easily.

Cheers

[DeadlyFred]

Because it flies.
Only an idiot would allow his Cuda fleet to be destroyed.

Well if your air force is being sent back home limping they're not doing much else, are they? Not to mention if you have your entire vehicle cap in 'Cudas you, obviously, have nothing else! I've never found the things all that threatening, unless they catch you totally off-guard. The aforementioned fully-lased Predator makes a nice welcome wagon for them.

[KotCR]

Yeah, but the aforementioned Lascannon Predator is Tier 4.
The imbaCuda is T2.

Also, the Lascannon Predator is way way way more expensive.

[ImmortalChaos]

SS are the weakest AV around - HP wise.
Did you even read the first post? 500 HP! FIVE-HUNDRED! SS with low HP is a MYTH!

[D-coy]

As I said before, even if they had 150-200 hps they'd still be useful with careful planning.

Cheers

[ImmortalChaos]

Yes, above average range, infiltration and 2 quick charging jumps go a long way. SS rarely get shot at all when used right.

[Hawillis]

Lrn 2 play SS serv.
Try 15 secs with a 110 sec cooldown.

Massive AoE that can take out many vehicles when rly the only vehicle spammed that it can target are jetbikes.

Its good. It could be nerfed. Say AoE of 7-8, duration 12 seconds. But its not worth crying too much about.

[Goodlight]

they should have a really long cool down and no aoe

[D-coy]

My suggestions (based mainly on theory):

1.
*Stays in Tier 2
*AoE removed
*Duration time decreased to 8 secs
*Modifiers adjusted so the grenade disables general combat thus removing the ability of walkers to do special attack damage while stunned

2.
*Moved to Tier 3
*AoE removed
*Duration time decreased to 10 secs
*Modifiers adjusted so the grenade disables general combat thus removing the ability of walkers to do special attack damage while stunned

My reason for the changes is that the EMP grenade is not really needed for Tau Tier 2 AV to be competetive. It's just icing on the cake. Why make it totally uber on top of that?

I don't think increasing its cooldown would do anything other than making SS totally own your vehicles fewer times. The ability itself would still remain unfair.

Cheers

[Mosh4Life]

Lrn 2 play SS serv.

I hope you didnt tell 4Servant to l2p
If so your a idiot
One of the best DoW players >_>
And you well him to l2p

I concure with D-Coys idea number 1#
=]
Its sorta my idea
Though out better =]

Mosh4Life =]

[War-Reborn]

I think if you take away the area of effect, and leave it at that there ok, perhaps a slight range reduction too maybe? but don't go over the top, a lot of what makes SS good is the units they have to back them up

Killing SS is not hard, the problem is killing them or chasing them or charging into them, when there covered by very long range troops like FW

SS can't really engage in direct combat, trouble is packed in amoung FW they don;t have to, it's pretty difficult to advance on a FW wall in tier 2 without vehicle or jump troops and even then if u use troops you must match them squad number wise or u get danced to death, they make walkers which would normally be pretty good at moving on a FW wall, pretty useless, ranged vehicles tend to have light armour in tier 2 and need very little SS exposure to take down, it can makes penetrating that wall very hard

If FW had a longer upgrade tree maybe? to reach full range potencial, things like EMP and SS might not be as much of an issue

Or if FW cost more per squad, so rather than 210 and 3 men, 280 and 4 men, which would mean than same overall cost for FW man for man, but would make getting a larger number of individual squads more expensive

[steel_tomatoes]

So really if your going to nerf emp; and I dont not-like Immortals SS leader suggestions :P then perhaps we can give the barracuda a little more anti air.
I mean its good value right now, but at 4 pop, it has to be good value because I must pay 300/100 just to get 2 of them! So it has high input costs.
Also it loses in air wars because it can be out spammed.

There's absolutely no way. That would make dedicated AA Air Units useless against Barracudas. When Barracudas are sent into base to blow up LPs, Gens, then out comes the Lightning Fighter/Nightwing, which are very niche units. You would only build these to counter Aircraft with base bashing tendancies, and their speed makes them a better choice than Celestians/Fragons. But if the Barracuda can simply take them on and win (they already do a fair bit of damage back as it is), then thats just YET ANOTHER thing Barracuda would be too good at.

If you anticipate hell talon or barracuda (in mirror match) then I agree a Broadside dedicated to the task is somewhat inefficient. So leave a squad of SS in your base. No flier can detect them and so they can take out Aircraft with fusion blasters without any retaliation. If the flier moves to a different LP/Gen the SS can jump to it, at least twice anyway. This is better than what some races get for Anti Air.

Are you sure you can't use EMP vs Air? For some reason I thought that I had done that once.

[Zamballo]

No, not the EMP but you can throw the grenades of the FW against them.

[The_nuketrooper]

IIRC the AoE weapons can damage air (hh and arty for example) so ...probably the EMP can "indirectly" stun air units? Must be tested.

[streak]

SS' emp nades are awesome, that much is true.

[Danustar]

the EMP grenade is not really needed for Tau Tier 2 AV to be competetive.

True. I like D-coy's ideas - all except the AoE. That's kinda the way an EMP works, although it should therefore also affect friendly vehicles within the AoE. Given the rarity of two opposing vehicles ever being with that range of each other anyway I conclude the AoE feature is not really a balance issue.

I think the grenade could take a range nerf tho. Forcing the XV25 to close in to use the EMP will put the squad more in harm's way and take the edge off the threat that Immortal's talking about.

[Skif]

I think the grenade could take a range nerf tho. Forcing the XV25 to close in to use the EMP will put the squad more in harm's way and take the edge off the threat that Immortal's talking about.

QFT.
Maybe this is all they need. This way you could place spotters behind vehs and have a good chance of preventing SS from pwning them. Or at least make SS pay.

[Maktaka]

IIRC the AoE weapons can damage air (hh and arty for example) so ...probably the EMP can "indirectly" stun air units? Must be tested.Weapons can indirectly damage air units because they don't have a target filter on their attacks. So although they are prevented from targeting air units by a special property on the weapon, the attacks themselves can still hit any armor type. EMP Grenades (and most abilities for that matter) have a limited set of armor types in their target filter and so their attacks cannot effect armor types not appearing on that list.

[The_nuketrooper]

Yes,I was thinking about that -still I didn't see any specific list of armour types it affects so I made a guess (good to know it could be worse than currently is ;)

[fs_xyz]

Agree on make shorter on throwing range. At least they will be detect able and kill able when throwing it.

[Hawillis]

I hold him to l2p SS :P
He was quoting from DC.

EMP should have the AoE. Right its characterful and different and it rewards both skill by tau and the opponent. Otherwise every tank trap/COMS/w.e is the same old bag.

If you want to nerf it then yes nerf its range, nerf the duration and AoE, but dont horribly reduce one of them. Make it a small nerf on all 3 aspects. Do not touch cooldown: this has most certainly been nerfed enough.

I take the point about the cuda. But rly SS cannot defend air. They cost a lot and its not just your base that they have to be in. Its all the relics as well. (think about trying to defend flyers on BM for example - its clear BS and SS just do not cut it). However, if tau has this weakness well then I hope that flyers get the nerfs coming to them and that it wont be MU breaking.

[ImmortalChaos]

Right so we have 2 options:

Move it to T3 and leave it's statline
Reduce AoE, stun time, and throw range slightly, but leave it in T2

[Fire_Warrior]

then the moment they are T2, your vehicles are done.

Err, no - you need to buy the squad leader first. Actually it takes quite a while to get Tau AV ready. And if you are not along way along the way then you are stuffed, so its not all easy for tau.

[RAWRRRRRRRRRRRR]

i say reducing its stun time, throwing range, and just leave it tier 2 will work

[Hawillis]

I vote to keep it in T2 as well. Just nerfed a little.

[Sjeg]

@ Immortalchaos: It's not a myth it's a fact. 500 hp of inf_med means that it is the weakest AV HP-wise and most expensive inf AV unit. If you rank it and make an approximation in what armor is worth it would be like: (included t2 upgrades available)

FD 625 h_high
Celestian 538 h_high
Horrors 600 h_med
bustaz 479 h_med
Immortal 450 h_med
Tac 448 h_med
Scourches 320 h_med
Ghost 500 inf_med

HWT is just too differtent to compare

I think that Scourches are at about the same lvl with stealth suits in terms of fragility. Though, Scourches have 2,5 jumps and a noticalbe high reach of 35. They are not invis but way cheaper and not to forgett - are considered to be a very weak AV unit.

mfg Sjeg

[D-coy]

Sjeg, don't forget the advantages of SS over Scourges. They cost less pop, they can FotM with a high accuracy and can have the grenade. And having jumps is a moot point, since SS have jumps too. And they don't have a setup time.

Just to make it fair. BTW unit-to-unit comparison is pretty much useless.

Cheers

[Sjeg]

I just pointet out the hp situation not more not less. Stealth suits are amoung the top 3 av units imho, and scourches are the worst.

[4uk4ata]

Just to chip in with a minor point - I'm seeing a lot of people praise the Tau AV options, but I've also seen a lot of complaints that Tau don't have a very strong AV. Also, please note that imo Tau take a bit longer to get into T2 in the first place - fire warriors and kroot are quite expensive, and stealth suits don't do much in T1 except decap (which, I admit, they do quite well)

Personally, I think Stealth Suits are ok as it is, although I could live with a minor grenade nerf - slightly longer CD, slightly shorter range and/or duration. But please, if it's a grenade, it should have splash - it'd be absurd otherwise.

[Aradamis]

Concerning the grenade splash and the arguments involved, I have a question:

Do the ASM melta bombs have splash? I don't play the SM enough to know right offhand.

[D-coy]

No, they don't and I was thinking about bringing up the same thing, but I didn't because they're bombs not grenades, so nitpicky people would've started arguing with me over that, I'm sure.

Cheers

[Aradamis]

One could argue that Stikk Bombz are bombs too (thus shouldn't have an AoE like Meltas), but ork equipment rarely follows the logical limitations that most weapons do. >_>

I'm just being arguementative. :D

[4uk4ata]

Can you miss with EMP grenades, btw? I mean, can the target move out when selected or are they a guaranteed hit?

[D-coy]

If they don't move out of throwing range till the grenade hits them they'll be affected by it 100%. If they do, SS tend to try to get into throwing range again until they can finish throwing or you tell them to do something else. It works the same way as any other targetable ability.:p

Cheers

[PathFinder]

i dont think emp needs a nerf. 500 hp, even 700 hp of infantry mid will be ripped to pieces if it brush against any thing anti infantry.

well. ork stik bomb is basically a gernade, look like one of those potato masher with germans in ww2s. how ever. why its called stik bomb... well. why do we call that giant walking tin can killa kan..

[D-coy]

i dont think emp needs a nerf. 500 hp, even 700 hp of infantry mid will be ripped to pieces if it brush against any thing anti infantry.

Note 'if'. It is very hard to catch SS as we stated several times before. Considering that, having somewhat less hps (but still a decent amount) than other AV units is irrevelant.

Cheers

[Heathen]

"why its called stik bomb"

Because it's a bomb on a stick.
Those "potato mashers" are actually called "stick grenades" if literally translated. So there you have it.

[Baro]

It is very hard to catch SS as we stated several times before.

You don't need to "catch" them.

Just an infantry squad+detector near your vehicles is enough to prevent the SS from attacking it. If they get close, they will get toasted faster than they can rip the vehicle. Effectively removing them fron that point on the battlefield.

The problem comes when vehicle spammers get OMFGowned by an powerfull anti-vehicle hability, which is,well, what they deserve...

[Sjeg]

Buztaz are using stikk bombs in melee. There is no animation or something, it's just the reason why bustaz melee dmg is the by far the best of all other av units in the game. But i guess it's irrellevant for this topic anyway ^^

mfg Sjeg

[Terpoma]

Just an infantry squad+detector near your vehicles is enough to prevent the SS from attacking it. If they get close, they will get toasted faster than they can rip the vehicle. Effectively removing them fron that point on the battlefield.

I would agree with Baro on this. Stealthsuits are incredibly easy to counter, and so long as that's true I wouldn't consider them imbalanced. If you're having problems with them, I'd consider changing your strategies slightly when facing tau (though that shouldn't be too hard to do, as said above, all you need is a detector unit fielded and some anti-infantry, and they can go down before they've even finished jumping in)

[Chris]

Bunching your infantry and tanks together might stop them annihilating the vehicle but it rarely stops them throwing the grenade and once it's thrown, the vehicle(s) are out for the count for 30 seconds. This means your infantry have to fight the tau without support which might be fine for some races but certainly not others.

[Varsis]

Has anyone considered the fact that SS essentially have an ability that disables the unit they're made to counter? I can't think of any other unit in the game that is comparable. Imagine if Fragons could cast entanglement on vehicles, people would be screaming IMBA. That may not be the fairest comparison, but the only races that can easily counter SS are those with massive amounts or highly mobile detectors. I don't think a nerf to EMP is all that uncalled for.

[Hawillis]

Yeah but that is tau :P
SM is versatile so you give ASM meltas
Tau is not.

SM can build w.e they like and it will be serviceable, tau has to build the right amount of troops to get the job done. Excess troops are often wasted. Get your point about making it too effective though...

[MaddoxX]

Why don't make the emp ability have an casting time of 3 sec and stop infilt during. Even if it has to compensate by a little more range or even adding a little damage which is not very important. Increasing cooldown OR removing AoE also is needed.

And for those who is saying why removing AoE when it is a grenade, the reason maybe because it throw the grenade inside of the vehicle to have full effect which is need to stop the vehicle.