[2.401] Faust damage vs Bren = bugged

[Monkeypoop]

- Panzerfaust does increased damage vs Bren Carriers. Will destroy standard Bren carriers with two shots.


The original patch changelog states that the damage of Faust against Bren Carrier was increased, when in fact it was decreased from 1.5 to 1.3


Will destroy standard Bren carriers with two shots

With the bug, it in fact makes the standard Bren carrier SURVIVE 2 shots, whereas in 2.3 it ALREADY killed it in 2 shots.

The main problem is with the upgun version. In 2.3 , two faust shots would bring a upgun BC down to 21 HP, which is reasonably close to try to kill it off with small arms fire, though still risky since he may still retreat and repair considering the lack of small arm penetration against Bren armor.

However, with a 1.3 dmg modifier the BC now has 51 HP (140% more than before) left after two shots, which pretty much guarantees it can limp away and survive after taking 2 faust hits, unless you have 2 Mg42's and 2 volks squads all shooting at it at the same time, which is unreasonable.

ultimatelly it means you wasted 70 munitions which he will negate by reparing for 35.

(lets not even go into how difficult it will be to kill a overrepaired upgun bren which is only 15 hp away from the hp of a Panzer 4 ~545 hp)

i see no reason why it should not be fixed or at least reverted to 2.3 status considering the original intention was to increase dmg, not introduce secret nerf/or bug

[Tseng_Fox]

I agree. It should be fixed.

[TNT]

(lets not even go into how difficult it will be to kill a overrepaired upgun bren which is only 15 hp away from the hp of a Panzer 4 ~545 hp)

what. is that true? insane.

[scoiatollo]

Let's not forget that the P4 armor is way superior and the time it needs to overrepair a BC.

And no I don't think that it should be reverted. 2 Fausts before the change left a BC with 20HP, with the change you have 50hp left, that's not the biggest difference but increases it's usefulness a little bit.

[Ghostly_Gecko]

There's no question over what should be done. The change was intended to increase the damage done by Fausts to BCs, and that's what should be done.

They shouldn't be as survivable to Fausts as they are right now; it's the only reliable T1 counter to them (unless you have a net of MGs), so reducing their damage is not good.

[Tod]

Let's not forget that the P4 armor is way superior and the time it needs to overrepair a BC.
It is not as much as you would think - the only thing PIV armor does better against most weapons is the it gets penetrated less often then the BC, which gets auto-penetrated by all AT weapons and can be harmed from small arms fire. BC on the other hand gets a moving 0.5 acc bonus.

Add on top of that the way critical tables are done (you take criticals based on the percentage of your base HP you got left, therefore a vehicle which has been OR'ed to 500 HP is much tougher than a vehicle with 500 base HP) and you'd surprised how tough a BC can be.

[scoiatollo]

Yeah the BC is equal or superior compared to the P4...

Do you people actually play the game or are you just posting some things you made up in your mind. If anyone is stupid enough to take a BC over a P4 he should quit playing the game, seriously....

[Tod]

Lol..did you even read what I wrote? Did I say that BC is equal or better than a PIV? Nope. Did I post something I made up? Nope. Did I say I would take a BC over a PIV? Nope. Did I say that a OR'ed BC can be ridiculously tough? Yes.

[Tseng_Fox]

Overrepaired Bren Carriers are a pain to take out. An early Bren Carrier is also a pain.

Fausts cost a fair bit of munitions so should do more damage.

[Thinking42Man]

Yes, please fix this, and also look at k98 and mg42 rounds penetration vs the BC, quite low I find, especially combined with severe damage and accuracy modifiers.

[Schwarzwald]

Yea this needs to be fixed, whats meaning of it doing opposite as stated in patch notes?.

[scoiatollo]

Everything ORed is ridiculous. 300HP more is ~half the HP most other tanks have. So where's the point in that?

Still the time and resources that is needed to get an ORed BC is time enough for any Axis faction to get a counter (namely a PAK for WE and a infHT with Schrecks for PE).

[Tseng_Fox]

240 manpower and 20 fuel as well as 255 manpower and 75 munitions or 360 manpower just to counter a single Bren Carrier?

[drChengele]

scoiatollo, stop trolling and dragging things off-topic. I don't know who got you the idea they think Brens are a better unit than Panzer IVs. The issue, that you seem to be defending for some reason, is that a unit that can come out in the first minute of the game, can be overrepaired to have hit points near to those of a Panzer IV. Penetration, overrepair time, who the hell cares, Panzer IV is a TIER FOUR unit that requires 290 fuel worth of clean teching even without any buildings built except Panzer Kommand and without any veterancy.
And no I don't think that it should be reverted. 2 Fausts before the change left a BC with 20HP, with the change you have 50hp left, that's not the biggest difference but increases it's usefulness a little bit.The patch states clearly that the intended change is: "Panzerfaust does increased damage vs Bren Carriers. Will destroy standard Bren carriers with two shots." This means Relic actually wants Bren Carriers to die in two Faust shots. Therefore the current modifier is a bug. Therefore it will be fixed. It's that simple.

I know you would like that the bug persists so you can use Bren Carriers more easily (instead of developing more skill to use it more effectively), but this bug will be fixed.

[scoiatollo]

An ORed Bren cost 280/50/10 (BC), 250/15 (Lt), 320/75 (expert sappers) and approximately available at min 15. So what exactly were you doing the whole time not to have a counter ready?

edit: Why do you think the multiplier change is the screw up and not the IN as part of increased rather than DE in decreased?!

30HP is not the world and assuming it was damaged T1 2fausts will still hill it.

[drChengele]

So what exactly were you doing the whole time not to have a counter ready?I don't remember anyone mentioning not having counters.


edit: Why do you think the multiplier change is the screw up and not the IN as part of increased rather than DE in decreased?!Because the changelog explicitly said: will destroy standard Bren carriers with two shots. I wouldn't feel so depressed about having to repeat this if I didn't make that part obviously bold in my previous post.
30HP is not the world and assuming it was damaged T1 2fausts will still hill it.And this factors into the fact the modifier is bugged how exactly?

Relic wants full-health Brens to die to two Faust shots. You do not. We get it. But please realize that you are defending a bug, and a change that erroneously does the reverse of what it should have done, which is what makes your posts even more ridiculous than their usual level of ridiculousness, which is, in itself, very, very ridiculous.

[Kratos]

Seriously, this is obvious a bug, what are you trying to accomplish here scoiatollo?
"assuming it was damaged T1 2fausts" guess what fausts are not usable before you get to tier 2, brens come out tier 0? So wehrmacht has noting tier 0 to kill a bren, that is unbalance!

Brenn carriers are very very good, 30 hp is not the word? The british player can pull the bren carrier back let it self repair and get back to the battle in 40-60 seconds.

[scoiatollo]

It still destroys a standard BC in two shots! It won't destroy an upgunned BC so why exactly are you insisting that it must be a mistake?

If you selfrepair it it will cost 35mun (hint, as much as a Faust cost), it won't shoot and drives slower, which means more opportunities to kill it.

[Tod]

It still destroys a standard BC in two shots! It won't destroy an upgunned BC so why exactly are you insisting that it must be a mistake?
Standard Bren has 215 HP, meaning that below 10.75 HP it can take a death critical - this requires 204.25 damage to be dealt.
Two Fausts should now deal 75x2x1.3=195 damage.

[scoiatollo]

My bad, I thought it had 190. But again, we don't know anything about what's been fucked up (the multiplier or the changelog) and yet everyone claims it's the multiplier. It's not like there weren't any mistakes in the changelog before...

[drChengele]

we don't know anything about what's been fucked up (the multiplier or the changelog) and yet everyone claims it's the multiplier.Yes, we do! "increase/decrease" can be mixed up, just as they reduced Infantry Company offmap artillery cooldown TO 1 second instead of BY 1 second, but how on Earth do you propose they could have messed up the line "will destroy standard Bren carriers with two shots". What, perhaps they meant "will NOT destroy", or "will destroy with THREE shots"? Don't be ridiculous.

This travesty has gone on long enough. Stop dragging things off-topic. A person finds and posts a bug, directly quoting the changelog. Then you come and argue:
a) how you would like this bug to remain in the game, and
b) how perhaps changelog got it wrong (based on no other premise except that you would really, really want it to be that way)

I mean, what the hell? Using these two approaches, we might as well never discuss bugs in the first place, because it could always be just a mistake in the changelog.

[pitermaster]

An ORed Bren cost 280/50/10 (BC), 250/15 (Lt), 320/75 (expert sappers) and approximately available at min 15.
15 min?! Armor command should be in progress then.
And we're discussing about wrong changelog not if brits are OP/UP.

[nunya]

An ORed Bren cost 280/50/10 (BC), 250/15 (Lt), 320/75 (expert sappers) and approximately available at min 15.

Did you forget the 2nd truck in this statement? just checking....

[scoiatollo]

AGAIN, we don't know what the intended change was. Until we receive a note from Relic both changes are plausible! What bugs me about this is the way everyone assumes it has to be a nerf against Brits.

Atm the Faust kill BCs in 2shots and leave an upgunned BCs with 20HP so why the hell did they put standard in the original statement if it wasn't for the unupgunned which is already killed in two shots?

@piter: I didn't come up with ORed BCs. And yes at around min 15 you should have or get an armored command. That doesn't change much that this is approximately the time you can OR a BC thanks to the need to either get sappers first or get a bofor/17lb up.

@nunya: yes I forgot the truck...

[shadowolfe]

It is a bug, it should be fixed, HOW ON EARTH IS THIS COMPLICATED.....

[drChengele]

AGAIN, we don't know what the intended change was. Until we receive a note from Relic both changes are plausible!The intended change was: "Panzerfaust does increased damage vs Bren Carriers. Will destroy standard Bren carriers with two shots."

This we received in a note from Relic.

[nunya]

The original patch changelog states that the damage of Faust against Bren Carrier was increased, when in fact it was decreased from 1.5 to 1.3

Just curious, where did you get this info? Did you pull it from the game files or something?

[scoiatollo]

YEAH RIGHT!

But guess what, a STANDARD BC was already killed in 2 Faust shots BEFORE the Beta! So why on earth should they change something to be killed in 2 shots if it's already killed in 2 shots (in fact it's not killed in 2 shots in the beta)

The message could also been mixed up (i doubt the ones making the changes write the cheanglog) and it could have sound originally "Panzerfaust damaged decreased vs Bren carrier. Will not destroy a standard Bren Carrier in two shots."

That the note and the actual change doesn't fit together is obvious but the question what's right and what's wrong can't be answered atm and just to assume the BC should be nerfed because it's British just shows how fucked up this community is atm!

So how about you all take a step back and stop bitching around about something we don't know? As long as there's no relic employee telling us what the plan looked like there's no way for us to assume which side is right and which wrong.

[shiner980]

Relic needs to come in here and clarify so that scoiatollo can shut it. SERIOUSLY, if the patchlog says that they wanted the Bren Carrier to die in two shots, I think thats what they mean. Patchlogs do not usually come in negatives unless there's another part, such as

-Bren Carrier will now die in 3 Faust shots, from 2 faust shots

But that isn't what is stated, not even close. I do think that what these guys meant when they said two faust shots killing a BC is like a guarenteed two faust kill, or maybe 2 faust to kill an upgun BC.

Think back to 1 second OMA. Are you saying that the developers WANTED artillery to come down IN one second when the patchlog said reduce call down time BY one second. It is a BUG, get over it, this is not a balance thread, we can start that in another section once they actually fix the bug.

[Sturmtruppen]

donno why this isnt a fix in 2.402, maybe it is, how come its not on the wiki? thats a 4days old bug... either with the game or change log

[scoiatollo]

The 1sec artillery was a 3sec artillery iirc, it was just one sec after the smoke was dropped.

And to make that clear once and for all, we don't know what's correct! It's either the changelog (stating something that was the case before the Beta), or the actual change that was rather the opposite. So yes we need someone from Relic to confirm either my point or the point of the loud crowd that cries for Brit nerfs on every occasion.

ps BCs were killed in 3 Faustshots before the patch so that would have been no change either.

[KoRneYEZ]

We don't, sadly. Relic's screwed shit up more than once to really believe what's supposed to be in their changelogs, and this goes far beyond CoH.

I helped beta test Dawn of War and their changelogs were just awful. I was reluctant to get into CoH because of their muddled past and, though I'm grateful they're still trying, I can't help but feel jaded. Things will be as they are even if they're bugs as far as Relic is concerned... we can only hope that something will be favorable down the line.

[Panzer Jager]

You guys have NO idea how overpowered Bren Carrier upgun spam is going to become.

I've honestly done it in 2v2 (won't work in 1v1 cause no capping power, but in 2v2 your tm8 can cap) and it absolutely rapes. Now it's going to be even harder to stop.


ps BCs were killed in 3 Faustshots before the patch so that would have been no change either.

No, it was 2 fausts. Trust me, I've had to kill lone BCs alot.

There is only 1 unit that can successfully stop a Bren Carrier spam. And it's T2 Pak38. Brens will rip through everything else, including AT Halftrack (because you have more than 3 BC.)

[Tseng_Fox]

Bren Carrier is already borderline overpowered. It dosent need any buffs at all.

[scoiatollo]

basedamage of the faust is 75, the multiplier against the BC is 1,5 (before the Beta!) 75*1,5=112,5. An Upgunned BC has 245HP 245-2*112,5 = 20HP. It was 2Fausts + a few shots before (or 3 Fausts claimed in most balance discussions).

Now it's 75*1,3=97,5 245-2*97,5 = 50HP.

[classic77]

WHAT?

What is more likely, that somebody messed up 1 line of code/1 number value, or that a changelog statement was reversed?

I'm going to assume that the more realistic and simple answer is the true one...its a lot easier overlook a coded value that is probably referenced more than once, than it is to completely reverse a changlelog statement..(Im pretty sure Relic spellchecks and rereads those for MAXIMUM CLARITY, as they are pretty important for the community to understand).

Also, in theory at least, balance patches tend to BALANCE gameplay: I play as Brits and Wehr mostly, and I can honestly say that a 3 faust standard BC is totally OP.

[draje175]

^^^ what he said. its MUCH easier to mix up a plus and minus sign(or whatever number change they screwed up), than to make a whole line change the context from THE DMG IS INCREASED and DESTROY IN 2 SHOTS... wow, most pathetic, scoiatollo... i dont try to be mean, but your arguing FOR a bug, and saying that it WAS the RIGHT thing to do, and that THE ENTIRE CHANGE LOG NOTE was wrong instead of A TINY CHANGE IN A MULTIPLIER, FROM 1.5 to 1.3....

it should be fixed, and should be 2 shots. and btw, yeah, before beta, i dont remember EVER 2 shotting a full health bren....

[scoiatollo]

Okay now for the slow ones, let's analyse the sentence...

"Panzerfaust does increased damage vs Bren Carriers." That indicate that the BC will be destroyed in 2 Faust shots since 2 Fausts were already killing it.

"Will destroy standard Bren carriers with two shots." What is a STANDARD BC? Standard means imo without any upgrades (Vickers/OR), so that indicates something that has already been the case before the Beta.

Now what's more likely, a screwed up code entry or a screwed up changelog entry?

I'm just saying that we don't know it for sure how this was intended and the only thing I'm arguing here about is the stubbornness of some posters that automatically assume "LOL! Brits are OP!11!1!!!" and therefore it has to be a change in Axis favour.

[Panzer Jager]

Well, the Bren Carrier is OP..
It's like an Infantry Halftrack on crack, for it's cost.

[scoiatollo]

InfHT is far worse, you can reinforce and carry AT while you have a mg at your front that kills your enemies units.

[Panzer Jager]

Inf. HT costs double fuel and doesn't suppress blobs in cover.
It also has somewhat early counters (Bren Carrier? Bren Tommies?) where as Fausts required to take down a BC cost more than a Tommy w/ Bren MG. Let alone Panzerschreck teching costs for PGs to deal with BC.

To kill a Bren Carrier as Panzer Elite, you need AT LEAST 635 mp, 55 fuel, and 75 munitions. Or as Wehrmacht, 700 mp, 50 fuel, and 105 munitions.

To kill an Infantry Halftrack you need at least 280 mp, 10 fuel, 50 munitions, OR 450 mp, 100 munitions.

For Americans to kill an Infantry Halftrack, that's a completely different story. It's like trying to kill a Bren Carrier with Pioneers.

[Maniac]

Wow, I dont think I need to explain exactly why this thread needs to be closed.

For the topic, I think we wait til the patch is out and have a look then, until this happens everyone can calm down and discuss the matter in a normal way again. ;)