[2.402] Wirbelwind still weak?

[Wischmopp]

I used it against Expert CPU Rangerspam and i must say, it failed totally.

The suppression is nonexistent against Rangers/Paras etc. and this thing just does not kill fast enough and is teared apart by bazookas. A Ranger-unit in light cover is seemingly not even touched by the Wirbel-Guns.


Also against M8 Greyhounds, it is still a joke. I mean, this is a Panzer IV based vehicle, it should crush Greyhounds and not get penetrated by its 37 mm gun.

[Slovko]

Are you sure you were you kiting the Rangers effectively? Anything more than two rangers squads, and your single wirbelwind alone is going to find itself in trouble. I'd recommend always providing combined arms support as well or group them in pairs.

I see you're point about Greyhounds however. I think they're somewhat OP against Wirbel Winds. Also, in comparison to the M8, the Puma takes far too much damage from small arms. In many situations I'll spend more effort micro'ing my puma early game with little benefit. Quite often I find I take more damage from basic infantry squads, or HMGs than I dealt. IN comparison, a quickly built M8 early game can dominate rush on my base causing me to spend far too many munitions on the panzerfausts required to kill it.

That might just be me though, I've been having a really hard time lately trying to figure out a good counter to an early base rush from the US.

[Sturmtruppen]

i think theres a dmg penalty in expert settings, cuz i know theres a dmg bonus vs normal AI... hard seems to be righton

[Tseng_Fox]

Wirblewind is still pretty bleh. Needs some more tuning. Only works when you invest in two and even then the Support will still do most of the killing if the enemy moves into cover.

[PeterPeterson1]

Kiting with WW isn't usefull, cause it gets some huge moving penalties. WW works good as stationary but not while driving. But stationary all elite units and fire up units are laughing about it. Damage output against commandos and rangers in no cover isn't even funny.

WW sucks. I hope they tune it to some usefull unit.

[Pershing720]

The Werbels main purpose is to suppress enemy infantry while Fallshirmjagers or another anti-infantry unit moves in to kill them.

[PeterPeterson1]

but you can't suppress the enemys elite and 75% used unit in the game aka Rangers, Commandos, Airborne. And against the smallest at it sucks terrible!

And please: It is Wirbelwind. Whirlwind in english!

[Panzer Jager]

The suppression is nonexistent against Rangers/Paras etc.

Fire-up negates ALL supression. Wirbel should not be an exception.

[Tseng_Fox]

Still, its quite easy to kill and dosent kill much, only suppresses and for 480 mp it is not impressive.

[Panzer Jager]

Use it with MP44s. It's a mobile MG42 on crack.

[PeterPeterson1]

It's a mobile MG42 on crack.

Wow. a 3 CP doctrine specific and not as much killing powered mg42 for 480 MP!

Nothing more to say!

[Tseng_Fox]

Yes, I do use it like that. Its still not worth the manpower though as soon as Rangers/Airborne/M8's appear.

Also, its not quite as strong as an MG42 which is supprising since its a 4 CP, 480 mp armoured unit. I'd expect it to be better than an MG42.

[Melonplant]

Wirbel is good. I've been abusing the crap out of it in the beta.

[PeterPeterson1]

For you the Firestorm is absolut imba too. WW sux

[Tseng_Fox]

It needs more tuning. Its still not as effective as any other PE call-in.

I don't see how it can be abused if it does nothing in the first place.

RR's kill it no matter whats supporting it since its so fragile.

[Panzer Jager]

I think it should further hurt light vehicles and deal more damage to infantry in negative cover.

Or enable it to reach veterancy faster.

[Tseng_Fox]

Everyone says it has to be vet 1-2 to be useful, so make it gain vet faster will mean it can be used without buffing it any more.

with double/triple defensive vet it'll have some use.

[Wischmopp]

no/negative cover damage is pretty decent actually, but it does not even touch anything behind a bottle of whine....

[Widowmaker1]

I thought vetting was supposed to make units better...not be a necessity to make a unit decent...

To be fair it still does decent damage vs infantry though in no way is it actually that good but I'd still like it to be better vs light vehicles. i mean, it's gotta do something better than a scout car for the amount of MP you spend on it...

[Cross]

I support a slight armor buff to the thing and slight damage buff.

[Heroin]

Plz dont call a unit ineffective just because you cant send it in the enemy base kill 4 ranger squads and it dont get a scratch......

support weapon is the correct word for it plz dont send wirbelwinds alone to the front and say things like "it couldnt turn the game...."

[Slovko]

What I want to know is what are the main differences between WW and Ostwind? Is a WW less effective in your opinions, because I seriously have no complaints killing special infantry units when it's properly supported. It is the great equalizer in those situations.

Admittedly, I haven't used the WW quite as much as Ostwind, but didn't notice much difference.

[Heroin]

Most of the people just get angry when they have a call-in unit which cost 480mp blocks a cp ability which could be used otherwise and isnt the burner without decent micro.


Just remember its as if youve built a unit and not like off map artillery "set and forget".

[PeterPeterson1]

i'll take the ostwind if i have to decide. With ostwind you could kill stuff. M8s too.

[Melonplant]

Against rangers I'd rather have an ostwind. Against rifles, wirbel is definetly the way to go.

Now that it can handle greyhounds with a tiny bit of support, the ostwind really doesn't have that much more going for it. 2 greyhounds can take on an ostwind as I recall.

[Widowmaker1]

It can't handle m8s even shooting it in the back while the m8 shoots teh front, try it...M3/M16 yes..

[Panzer Jager]

Ostwind rips through M8s in about 2 Clips.
Wirbel vs. M8 unskirted, Wirbel wins but it takes ALOT of time.
Wirbel vs. Skirted M8, Wirbel barely wins.

[Tseng_Fox]

Plz dont call a unit ineffective just because you cant send it in the enemy base kill 4 ranger squads and it dont get a scratch......

support weapon is the correct word for it plz dont send wirbelwinds alone to the front and say things like "it couldnt turn the game...."

Thats not the point. It dosent do much except suppress units when it supports. I was sitting for ages waiting for it to kill a rifle squad until eventually the grenadiers that were supporting it killed them instead.

Its never the Wirblewind that kills, its always the support, thats the problem.

Its 4 CP's so I want it at least as effective as Rangers, Commandos, Hetzers, Churchills and all other 3-4 CP call in units.

[Widowmaker1]

Whirbel barely wins?? I've tested it 3 times and each time the whirbel dies without droping the M8 at half health. Are you sure? have you really tested it?

[Panzer Jager]

Well, when a unit is supressed/pinned, run them over.


Whirrbel barely wins?? I've tested it 3 times and each time the whirbel dies without droping the M8 at half health. Are you sure? have you really tested it?

Ok, but you don't have to freak out. I tested it using a mod, like Sturmtruppen.

[Tseng_Fox]

Well, when a unit is supressed/pinned, run them over.

Run them over?... Are you serious?

I actually want its gun to do something instead of being a suppression unit in which case I'll stick with an Infrantry HT which is more survivable and cheaper and can reinforce.

Wirblewind is useless again. It was way overnerfed.

[Unicous]

overnerfed

????

what? it was not overnerfed but tuned.
tseng you don't know what you are talking about and that's really really annoying.

it had 0.06 suppression in 4.401, according to attribarchive.sga it has now 0.75 (maybe thats wrong, rather 0.075, or just another glitch) at short range 0.05 at medium, 0.02 at long/distant. compared to the mg42 with 0.0125 d/l, 0.015m and 0.015 at short i'd say it has crazy suppression now.



inf ht has suppression of 0.0015 d/l, 0.003 m, 0.006 s ( but has a nearby suppression radius)

[Melonplant]

Wirbel is still fine. It's core issue is it comes too late, but make it come any earlier and it would be way overpowered.

I'd suggest reducing it's suppression a little more, decreasing it's hp a little more, and make it come a CP earlier. It's kill range should be about medium-short, and it should win the atrophy war if a bunch of rifles try to take it out with stickies if you kite them.

Rifles that get within medium range should get suppressed, but recover fairly soon if the wirbel changes targets. This way you can effectively flank it and sticky it.

Unsupported wirbels need to die easily. Supported wirbels need to be useful, but not unstoppable.

[zzSleeper]

Run them over?... Are you serious?

I actually want its gun to do something instead of being a suppression unit in which case I'll stick with an Infrantry HT which is more survivable and cheaper and can reinforce.

Wirblewind is useless again. It was way overnerfed.

Are you seriously whining that it pins too fast and thus can't kill stuff due to pin penalties?

Infantry HT is more survivable than a wirblewind? What? It also doesn't suppress anywhere near as fast.

My god, my uber pwn machine only suppresses the entire opposing army, not kill them! Well gee, maybe you should, I dunno, bring some other units to kill the pinned enemy infantry?

[Unicous]

My god, my uber pwn machine only suppresses the entire opposing army, not kill them! Well gee, maybe you should, I dunno, bring some other units to kill the pinned enemy infantry?

Shh! sleeper. don't tell him what is obvious he might learn how to use the wirbelwind correctly.

[shadowolfe]

Amazingly :eek: ! I agree with zzSleeper, I do not believe that WWs were ever meant to kill

stuff really well on their own, they are a support unit, mix in some Falls with that WW

and I assure you that your enemy will cry for mercy, anyway the WW is a SUPPORT unit,

it has very long range and suppresses things REALLY well, it is very effective in a

support role, IMO it now puts the support in the "Luftwaffe Support Doctrine :xmas: ". So it is

not in need of any more damage as it can suppress quite well as it is, it is a VERY good

support unit, but it is balanced because in order to really cause havok it needs to be supporting other units.

Although now that I have given it a bit more thought, I don't think it would hurt to give it some more

damage against vehicles, but I don't think that it should be buffed any more against infantry.



Sorry I cant help playing with the emotes and bold and underline tools, school just got out, so, I'm just a little crazy

today :jig:

Shadowolfe :Loco:


PS and yes the "Luftwaffe Support Doctrine :xmas: " must always have a Santa hat guy in it, if you think

differently then you can jump off a cliff into hordes of enemy commando demos, muahahhahaha... :corn:

[someboy]

always talk about combined arms

how could it be effective due to the:
1, small squads of the axis units
2, squads could be completely useless at vet0( due to the massive numbers of allies)
3, how you going to provide infantry supports when artillery bomb the shit out of you all the time?

WW doesn't need to be buffed vs infantry. however, its armor needs to be buffed a little bit. i tired 2 rangers in houses, 4 shots does a pretty good amount of damage to WW. then i fired my artillery, and few more shots from my rangers while it is backing up. it is DEAD and i only lost 1 ranger.

[Tseng_Fox]

Shh! sleeper. don't tell him what is obvious he might learn how to use the wirbelwind correctly.

Why should I pay 480 mp for a 4CP unit that only suppresses when I can use a Infrantry HT which although dosent suppress just as fast, but will kill enemy infrantry enough that it will pay off as well help by reinforcing my Pgrens.

480 mp is way too much for something that can only suppress, once support costs are taken into consideration. (255 mp per Panzer Grenadiers and 240mp 20 fuel per Inf HT)

if its not going to kill anything, then fine. Buff its armour instead so that it survives when supported.

[Aesar]

heres the real question, does the whirlblewind shoot down planes ever? some protection from strafing run would be nice. all AA should work like bofors

[someboy]

YES

it does shoot down airplane but you need to place your WW in the direction where the strafling run or bombing run is coming from. also, it needs to shoot down the plane before it fire or your units are still gonna get hit by atleast a little bit.

if your WW is right on the spot where the strafling or bombing run is targeted. it won't stop it in time.


the armor of WW should definitely be buffed just look at how fast it dies..

[Tseng_Fox]

they are a support unit, mix in some Falls with that WW

Its 4 CP's to get a Wirblewind and another 3 CP's to get Fallshrimjaeger. It'll take a good while till you can get both out and almost impossible to keep them out against a good opponent.

If its going to be a good supporting unit, then it should have a good armour buff since it can't kill anything.

[zzSleeper]

Why should I pay 480 mp for a 4CP unit that only suppresses when I can use a Infrantry HT which although dosent suppress just as fast, but will kill enemy infrantry enough that it will pay off as well help by reinforcing my Pgrens.

480 mp is way too much for something that can only suppress, once support costs are taken into consideration. (255 mp per Panzer Grenadiers and 240mp 20 fuel per Inf HT)

if its not going to kill anything, then fine. Buff its armour instead so that it survives when supported.

What a stupid question.

Why should I pay 260 mp for a MG42 that only suppresses when I can use volksgrenadiers that will suppress but also act as light AT and is much more survivable?

Because thats the difference between the wirble and the inf HT, the wirble is like a MG42 while the inf HT is like a regular riflesquad in terms of suppression.

Also wirble's damage have NOT been nerfed, I can't believe you're seriously whining that they buffed its suppression.

Suppression IS armor, guess what happens when things are suppressed? They dont shoot at often and cant move, guess what happens when things are pinned? They cant move or shoot.

[Tseng_Fox]

MG42 is more effective at suppression and can kill more than the Wirblewind.

The Wirblewind is doctrine-specific and it isn't very useful and is still frail as anything.

[hashinshin]

-Give wirbelwind AoE suppression, increase suppression and damage by 20%.

-Give the wirbelwind more AA power to offer protection against air power.

-Give the wirbelwind more damage against light vehicles.

Then it could fill the niche role of infantry support.

[zzSleeper]

-Give wirbelwind AoE suppression, increase suppression and damage by 20%.

-Give the wirbelwind more AA power to offer protection against air power.

-Give the wirbelwind more damage against light vehicles.

Then it could fill the niche role of infantry support.

Then give the sniper(both snipers) the ability to call down a nuclear strike from a missile silo, it should illuminate the target with a red dot and broadcast "Nuclear Launch Detected" as the missile fires.


MG42 is more effective at suppression and can kill more than the Wirblewind.

The Wirblewind is doctrine-specific and it isn't very useful and is still frail as anything.

MG42 is not more effective at killing than the wirblewind, it does less damage than the wirblewind. Also, mobile suppression mobiles like the wirblewind is heavilly frowned upon due to their lack of weaknesses. Compare to the quad if you want a fair comparison.

Wirblewind is a relatively early anti-infantry tank, it fills this role very well now.

[Tseng_Fox]

Wirblewind would be better and more useful if it came a CP earlier. By the time it comes out, theres already something which can kill it fairly easily and the units that do counter it make it difficult to support. (Airborne, M8, etc.)

Its not effective enough to be a 4CP unit, so at least lower the cost by 1CP.

[zzSleeper]

Thats the epitome of balance, the counter for something should comes before the unit arrives, thats the whole freaking point.

Paks come before m8s and quads, 57mm comes before pumas. You're just used to PE being the super fast tech faction and breaking this rule.

[Tseng_Fox]

I know thats how to balance.

Problem is what do you use the Wirblewind or why bother when the M8/Fire-up'd airborne run behind the wirble and take it out in very few RR shots.

Its just not worth the large investment when its so simple to take out no matter what support it has.

[CroatNotBorat]

Problem is what do you use the Wirblewind or why bother when the M8/Fire-up'd airborne run behind the wirble and take it out in very few RR shots.
1 (one) AT-HT: dead M8
1 (one) MP44 squad: two dead squads of paratroopers

The only thing that stands a reasonable chance of destroying a WW is an AT gun. Nothing else will - at least not on competitive levels of play.

[Tseng_Fox]

Why not simply use your buffed riflemen to take out the support? 1 MP44 squad will not beat 1-2 Vet 2-3 riflemen. AT-HT can be beaten by RR's or circlestrafing.

[zzSleeper]

Why not simply use your buffed riflemen to take out the support? 1 MP44 squad will not beat 1-2 Vet 2-3 riflemen. AT-HT can be beaten by RR's or circlestrafing.

By what magical powers do yu have 2 vet 2/3 riflemen squads for every PG squad and a m8 and a paratrooper squad by 4 cp?

If you lose an AT-HT to circle strafing you seriously need to improve your micro, it has 45 range and treadbreaker for a reason. Losing one to a lone m8 is kinda like losing a sniper to a lone MG42, you'd basically have to try to lose it.

Also, how are those riflemen going to beat your mp44 infantry while suppressed and pinned by the wirblewind? Or did riflemen get fired up while I wasn't lookng?

Against m8/paras/rifles, use the wirble to suppress/kill his rifles, PGs to kill his paras, and any form of AT(shreks or AT-HT) to kill the m8. Your wirble is tough enough that RRs will take quite a while to kill it, giving you plenty of time to kill the airborne.

[PeterPeterson1]

1 (one) AT-HT: dead M8
1 (one) MP44 squad: two dead squads of paratroopers

And again i am laughing. That makes you need 3 buildings.


Thats the epitome of balance, the counter for something should comes before the unit arrives, thats the whole freaking point.

Fo me the wirbelwind should be a good counter for paras and rangers. But it is funny, it comes later!

AND IT IS WIRBEL!

[zzSleeper]

Fo me the wirbelwind should be a good counter for paras and rangers. But it is funny, it comes later!

AND IT IS WIRBEL!

Wirblewind actually counters rangers fine, paratroopers are dedicated AT infantry.

[PeterPeterson1]

WIRBELWIND! Man!

[SA_Ka_20]

I wonder why most of the anti-infantry unit axis get should only suppress, while most of allies squads get free "avoid suppressive fire" abilities.
:stick:

[zzSleeper]

What units are you referring to that only suppress?

[SA_Ka_20]

I didn't say they are but should, referring to the posts i read so often.

[Ballist1x]

hm most axis troops have excellent AT yet virtually none of the US units can actually supress even half of a blob...

Werbels are good, but if you see the battlefield full of Airbourne, then buying a Wirbel could have been a tactical mistake.

[natrapsmai]

Just tried the new Wirbelwind and while it is so much better it still leaves room for improvement when it comes to actually killing infantry. Right now it suppresses and that's about it unless the other guy just leaves his rifles in the open for a few minutes.

[yetanotherplayer]

And again i am laughing. That makes you need 3 buildings.

At 440 manpower, 60 fuel, seeing as the first building is provided for, compared to the US' 345 manpower, 95 fuel to have the Motor Pool and Supply Yard. I'd say it's possible.

[PeterPeterson1]

No it isn't. You didn't build the buildings only. You are in the need to build units too. And PE units are the ones with he most all over need of fuel!

[CroatNotBorat]

Three buildings are 80 fuel. The M8 is 140 fuel. You have 60 fuel to spend on AT-HTs, ACs, Marders, IHTs, MHTs, whatever. But you will have collected more than 140 fuel before the Americans do, seeing as you have the ketten and numerous PGs.

[Panzer Jager]

But you will have collected more than 140 fuel before the Americans do, seeing as you have the ketten and numerous PGs.

And you have Rifles and Engineers.
Which in total should be greater capping power than PGs and a single Ket.

[CroatNotBorat]

In theory yeah, in actual gameplay - no. The ketten will connect at least one fuel before barracks are even up. If PE capped so slow as some people claim they do, then everybody would go for a second ketten. Nobody really does that, because PE can still get map control without it.

[Panzer Jager]

The ketten will connect at least one fuel before barracks are even up.

Only on semois.


If PE capped so slow as some people claim they do, then everybody would go for a second ketten. Nobody really does that, because PE can still get map control without it.

Go cap a point with PGs, and let your enemy's Rifle squad re-take it.
See how long it takes in both cases and compare. I never cap with PGs until I get the upgrade, unless there's a strat point that needs to be connected/disconnected. Capping a medium/high point with PGs will take all day, and often is just asking for an ass-kicking.


If PE capped so slow as some people claim they do

It is a FACT (not a claim) that PE infantry cap the slowest, until Field Craft is researched, at which they still don't cap the fastest. Only Fallschirmjager, Luftwaffe Ground Forces, the Ketten, and Scout Car can cap at normal speed, all of which besides FSJ you'd usually only have 1 unit of.

[CroatNotBorat]

I'm not talking about individual squads, I'm talking about the faction as a whole.

Anyway, back to WW...