[2.403] Marder 'Site Main Gun' (?)

[Pyro Paul]

- Panzer Elite Marder III Site Main Gun weapon damage modifier removed. Was 1.35.
- Panzer Elite Marder III Site Main Gun sight bonus reduced from 20m to 5m.

this is what the patch note says... damage modifer removed. stating that it was 1.35...


but Coh-Stats (http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/panzerelite/abilities/mardersetup.html) (2.301) say this:

Site: +20
Reload: .75
Penetration: 1.35
Damage: 1.1

so we kind of have conflicting information.
so which is it?
was the 1.1 damage reduced to 1 or was the 1.35 penetration reduced to 1?

[Sturmtruppen]

1.1 to 1 for sure, well if they really do mean damage

[zzSleeper]

Could be the 1.1 damage removed and the 1.25 vs American armor removed...

One could hope.

[nfoo]

Hopefully it is the bonus for US removed!

Both changes are very good and make a lot of sense:
especially the reduction of the LOS-Bonus"

Good job, Relic!

[Panzer Jager]

Well CoH stats also says Marder and Hummel can crush humans. But when you load up in Mod Studio or play the game, that's not so ;p

Anyhow, the CoH patch release notes always have bugs. They're whipped up real fast and just supposed to give an idea towards the changes. When it's released tomorrow, we'll know what they changed.

[sighman]

I am so thankful that Marder got these nerfs. They needed it badly

[Melonplant]

I'd suspect the damage modifier was removed.

[Weavern]

This was an unecessary double nerf. With the sight reduced to this degree the damage mod means you need a spotter. One or the other, not both... If you have the sight the damage mod should go, but with both gone you have something already fragile which is now much less effective.

[hashinshin]

It was already hard to get 2 MarderIIIs covering eachother (contrary to popular belief) in every area, especially on the attack. Now they can't defend properly, do less damage, and generally are forcing the other doctrines to keep going double AT efforts for AT duty.

[sighman]

Its not hard at all. Its just a matter of spacing to get the Marders to cover each other and then tanks can't circle strafe them properly.

[Melonplant]

It's hard to place two marders near eachother?

Sweet, I must be really good. Sometimes I place 3 marders near eachother. I have a replay of it too!

Anyways, I'm sure the devs will get back to us on what they actually changed. Furthermore, soon as patch is released, I'll load up corsix and take a look if one of the other guys doesn't beat me to it.

[hashinshin]

Yeah, be on the attack where your LoS is limited and tanks can be just outside the zone... or RRs... or rangers... if you keep your MarderIIIs so far back they'll never be hit then the cromwells will tear you apart.

PE does not have a 100% win ratio, we have been beaten before, you can do it.

[bavbav]

this was needed.

seriously now, marder site main gun is a free ability and gives such big bonuses.

id probably add a second or two to the cooldown of site main gun aswell. you know, p4 lock takes extremly long, so does hummels, but marders is liek 2 or 3 sec.

good change relic. now as far as pe nerfs are concerned, i think a slight tech delay for third and fourth building is very much needed. fast ac, fast mp44 or fast at ht is still deadly. ofcourse fuel cost cant be nerfed, id suggest to nerf build time or said buildings by alot, so pe player has to tie 1 gren squad for some time building and increased mp cost or 3 and 4 building to liek 500. that way while ac,mp44,at ht rush would be later because of build time, but mp cost would prevent spamming of pgrens early game. that would mean 1 squad less. ye and probably add nerf incresed squad sizes so when researched, 255 is increased to 300.

but ofc pe do need some buff namely in scorched and logistik.

[Weavern]

no bavbav that isnt an explanation for why this is a good change. This thread isnt about every other change this thread is about the marder and its changes.

The marder sited now has its sight effectively cut by 75% meaning its useless without spotters. If it had the damage it would be unable to effectively operate by itself without something else providing spotter role.

With the damage removed but with sight, its an equivalent AT weapon.

With both of these the marder is almost nerfed out of usefulness as it cannot operate like any equivalent AT weapon, and is much more expensive and less reiable then other equivalents. It just means you're going to have unsited marders running around and reversing.

Kill either the damage or the sight. And we have a reliable nerf. But at the present time this is an uncalled for double nerf which should not have been taken.

[zzSleeper]

no bavbav that isnt an explanation for why this is a good change. This thread isnt about every other change this thread is about the marder and its changes.

The marder sited now has its sight effectively cut by 75% meaning its useless without spotters. If it had the damage it would be unable to effectively operate by itself without something else providing spotter role.

With the damage removed but with sight, its an equivalent AT weapon.

With both of these the marder is almost nerfed out of usefulness as it cannot operate like any equivalent AT weapon, and is much more expensive and less reiable then other equivalents. It just means you're going to have unsited marders running around and reversing.

Kill either the damage or the sight. And we have a reliable nerf. But at the present time this is an uncalled for double nerf which should not have been taken.


I disagree completely.

According to your logic the M10 must be a useless piece of shit, since it does have nearly as much range as the marder or nearly as much damage.

Equivelent AT weapon is something like a 57mm. Marder does more damage than the 57mm even post nerf. You pay fuel for the marder to be essentially immune to traditional AT counters like mortars, snipers, regular infantry(with no at weapons), etc and for the mobility.

[Melonplant]

It still gets increased penetration and faster reload when sited. And a +5 site range. You'd still be a fool to not site (sight? I suppose either is technically correct if you think about it?) your marder in 50% of circumstances.

Siting your marder while rangers, evil arty, or m8s are on the lose is still a no-no, and that's always been the case.

The marder will remain a fine AT gun that still outdamages and outpenetrates its american and wehr counterpart.

edit: and what zz said

[Pyro Paul]

This was an unecessary double nerf. With the sight reduced to this degree the damage mod means you need a spotter. One or the other, not both... If you have the sight the damage mod should go, but with both gone you have something already fragile which is now much less effective.

but really, if it is just a 1.1 modifer... it really isn't making it all that much less effective.

from the patch notes it doesn't sound like they are reducing the crit table modifers the weapon has against allied armor, so really it is going to probably still rape M-10s Shremans and cromwells like no ones business.


it could very well just of been a key stroke accident and they are fixing it. because a 1.1 damage modifer is kind of odd in the first place.

[Harry]

Marder does more damage than the 57mm even post nerf. You pay fuel for the marder to be essentially immune to traditional AT counters like mortars, snipers, regular infantry(with no at weapons), etc and for the mobility. Well written


seriously now, marder site main gun is a free ability and gives such big bonuses. This is true too. imo.


Kill either the damage or the sight. And we have a reliable nerf. But at the present time this is an uncalled for double nerf which should not have been taken. I kinda have to agree with this, its too much fuel for the marder to be just resistant to flamers and what not. Maybe the sight has to be given back, i dont know about damage. It actually makes it so that kets have to be built again and not just shrugged when the ket is destroyed. Kets and marders go hand and hand now i guess.

Countinue the debate guys im enjoying both sides point of view.

[Weavern]

Disagree all you want.

WHY do you think that the marder needs both a sight decrease of 75% and ontop of that a damage decrease.

Bring the m10 and whatever else you want into the situation but understand the facts before you start throwing random units into the discussion. You are talking about a m10 which is mobile. The sited marder now has 75% less visiblity, and less damage. Unless the goal is to turn the marder when sited into something that must be supported by spotters then this is a backwards accomplishment which does not address the key reasons people complain about the marder, and unnecessarly nerfs it in areas which will not accomplish key objectives.

[zzSleeper]

Disagree all you want.

WHY do you think that the marder needs both a sight decrease of 75% and ontop of that a damage decrease.

Bring the m10 and whatever else you want into the situation but understand the facts before you start throwing random units into the discussion. You are talking about a m10 which is mobile. The sited marder now has 75% less visiblity, and less damage. Unless the goal is to turn the marder when sited into something that must be supported by spotters then this is a backwards accomplishment which does not address the key reasons people complain about the marder, and unnecessarly nerfs it in areas which will not accomplish key objectives.

How is it 75% less visibility? The sited marder used to have 55 sight range, now it has 40, thats not a reduction of 75%.

Turning the marder into something that needs spotters like every single AT gun and every single long ranged tank(panther, firefly) in the game does not "make it useless!

Also, this was a major complaint about the marder. Because it can simply sit there with no spotters or other support and kill tanks no problem. Nothing could flank it due to the enormous sight range, and if anything that could kill it like airborne or rangers come charging up it can spot them and de-site and run away before they can do anything to it.

Forcing players to use spotters for the marder is a MAJOR improvement, and its damage was also way too high against American armor, it freaking two shots M10s, and those shots come as fast as shots from the pak, making it one of the fastest firing AT weapons in the game as well.

I think with the damage bonus vs American armor removed and the sight bonus removed it should receive a decrease in research cost, to something like 150 mp and 25/30 fuel.

[Melonplant]

which does not address the key reasons people complain about the marder

That is true, usually its the american tank bonus or the high initial damage.

But the balance team loves to change over powered units in completely unexpected ways. So far i'd say it's working pretty well in terms of coh's balance over the year(s). They'll rarely do exactly what the community wants.

I'd say removing/reducing the damage bonuses against american tanks or even reducing it's penetration against certain elite call-in tanks would be a much more severe nerf than a simple sight range decrease upon siting. This will result in much less early base bashing, unless you got a lufty ketten in the base.

In any case, let's use a marder before we deem it useless.

[hashinshin]

The MarderIII ain't so hot against bunkered down or elite tanks unless it had ACPR rounds.

Which only helps make tank hunters even more mandatory...

[sgb]

The problem with these changes is that they keep fixing the the US vs. PE matchup, which is good. But they keep hurting the PE vs. British matchup, which AFIK wasn't too bad. I forsee most Axis teams in 2v2 going double Wehr in the future.

[zzSleeper]

Well, there are issues with the firefly, but its so expensive so not as big a problem as the marder.

In general the whole "super high damage from super high range and mobile" is a bad concept IMO. High damage+high range should be the domain of AT guns(including 88), not the domain of tank destroyers. I feel tank destroyers should follow either the M10 or the stug's line of design.

[hashinshin]

How many times do we have to say it ?

The MarderIII is a glorified AT gun, its not mobile, it works much like an AT gun (it can't turn and aim at the same time.)

[zzSleeper]

It can certainly turn and aim at the same time, the same way stug does it.

And I'd call something with 6 top speed pretty freaking mobile.

If its an AT gun, then mortars and snipers and smg armed infantry should rape it, they dont, that combined with its high speed makes it a tank destroyer, not an AT gun.

[bavbav]

weavern, marder cost 40 more fuel than other at guns, but is superior.

its not like sight nerf is that big. marder strenght is in fact that it survives stuff that normal at guns dont. that means snipers, mortars, flame, small arms, granades on top of being extremly mobile. much more than normal at gun. site main gun is also free. yes paks cloak is also free, but it makes it move even slower and its bonus isnt permament. site main gun is always there until you turn it off. and bonus of site main gun is better than paks first shot? yes.....

that justifys 40 fuel cost.

so right now it seem to still have problems. so bonus vs american tanks wasnt removed. it has to be. and another issue is that marder totaly destroy buildings and trucks.

how many times did you saw marder base rush? or rush to kill trucks? and how many times did you saw 57mm or pak performing the same? i havent. coupled with marder mobility, its too much. so ye, it still needs some nerfs. at least now its pretty much ok.

seriously now, pe pays fuel for their weapons teams, but which come in form of tanks or hts, but are far superior. its not like pe has a hard time teching either. so they have plenty of fuel. catn be denyed theyre better. just like mortar ht. for a mere 40 fuel, you get 5x more survivable mortar and 10x more mobile. on top of that it gets inc rounds aswell. that god at ht isnt just a mobile sniper, it actualy has to pay 40 munis to snipe, but again is far less likely to die if you take care of it and it kills just as much. and mobile. and comes with thread breaker.....

i dont realy understand why whining on pe nerfs. their units are too good for a mere fuel cost. its not like big nerfs are needed, but enough to make them have a down side.

[AnyKey]

The Marder is worse than ever, I don't think anyone (Relic patch makers) really understands this "Tank Hunter" is nothing but eye-candy in-game. It's a joke when it's circled by a M10 or Stuart Tank for that matter. I don't understand why there isn't an increase to its main gun in damage wise instead of this reduction crap every patch.

The PE only have two main forms of AT, the Marder and Panzerschreck squads, but by the time you get to one or the other it's sort of too late when the American player has already two to four Shermans. And playing against an British player this slightly changes but nothing dramatic to still make the Marder worth purchasing unless you have good domination of the map.

Anyone here understand where i'm coming from with this?

[yetanotherplayer]

If you're just getting schrecks or Marders when the American players has Shermans you are doing something very, very, very wrong.

[Pershing720]

Support your marders with panzerschrecks then. Against American tanks all PE players had to do was spam marders with its ridiculous bonus against them. Making American tanks and more importantly armor company a bad choice. If an American player has that many Shermans in play and your just then getting ant-tank to counter them you deserve to lose.

[sparcKy']

haha support your marder with schrecks ? the tank hunter is a tank not an AT gun that has to deploy to even be near good. Americans dont even need to build tanks now with the new vet system More ranger and AB blobs inc + arty + straifing to kill your blob ... what a joke

[hashinshin]

if its a tank hunter why does it need so much support ? Does a M10 need help killing a puma ? If its an anti tank gun why is it being nerfed out of it's role ?

[Pershing720]

Because the marder currently rapes American tanks making them not worth building. You should have to support it. If a puma is unsupported with AT then it deserves it's fate. We don't even know how the Marder changes will work out yet.

[hashinshin]

Aw, so its perfectly fair that an M10 beats a puma while the MarderIII loses to a greyhound. Got it.

Just support your tanks with AT and kill the MarderIII, thats american logic spouted right back at you.

[bavbav]

AnyKey
why compalning about marder nerf?

it is better than at guns alright. thats why it costs 40 fuel. good.

now complaning how a marder can be circled with m8, stuart or m10 is a joke. at guns can be too you see. and not only that, they get killed by mortar, snipers, small arms, greandes, whatever which marder does not. please stop......

also pe is not lacking at weapons. shrecks and marder is what you see most yes, however they have others. at nades and at ht.

its not like wehr has more? at nades similar to faust, both have shreck, pak and marder is similar, both have panthers, wehr has p4 and stugs granted, but pe has at ht. which is probably better. so where is this lack of pe at coming from i ask?

ah yes i know. you want to build 1 unit whole game, namely spam shreck, but they got nerfed, so now you must mass marders? im sorry, use at ht once in a while and ull see just how deadly that thing is. combined with shrecks or marder that is.

and weavern, where do you see 75% nerf in sight? because its not. because it is exactly 27% nerf. nerf to site main gun and not to normal vision. so its still 40.

sparcKy'
you need to read patch notes again, veterancy change is for rifles only. you know, those rifles that now get destroyed by pe infantry and mass wehr grens form medic bunkers. this is so needed because rifle die so much. you need to rebuild them alot and having vet0 rifle squad in late game isnt helping. earning vet faster will hopefuly fix this. yes, wehr never has htis problem because newly built squads get full vet, brits new squads get vet instantly aswell since lt provides, and pe, well pe units share veterancy so its much easyer to gain it back. us has nothing.

[zzSleeper]

Aw, so its perfectly fair that an M10 beats a puma while the MarderIII loses to a greyhound. Got it.

Just support your tanks with AT and kill the MarderIII, thats american logic spouted right back at you.

About as fair as a sherman losing to a marder yet the panzer IV beats a M10.

God you're so full of blatant dishonesty.

Tank destroyers SHOULD lose to their counterpart's medium tanks. Also marder can beat a m8 quite easilly, give me a ketten with the marder and I will show you one dead m8.

[vfdarkcipher]

marders pre patch were too op, they cost very little manpower and fuel when compared with the tanks they kill. however a reduced sight and damage evens this out.

u cannot support marder 3 with shrecks as that costs way too much fuel and the americans will have many m8s by then and u would have no way to kill them.

i think that the marder 3 sould have a turn speed buff OR be made to 300 manpower and 35 fuel, to even things out a bit.

[Melonplant]

It's not exactly unheard of to see an upgunned puma beat an m10.

[Tseng_Fox]

Marder needs a cost decrease of 100mp and 10 fuel to keep in line with the major nerf it got, else its useless.

[hashinshin]

I know that I won't be using marderIIIs for anything at all.

Cheaper to just use double AT effort shrek squads and Pv4s for AI.

[Jaigen]

The LOS nerf is a bit extreme the pe doesn't have a spotter unit. in fact the marder was the spotter unit. if you want to use a marder now your troops are going to take a lot of unnecessary risks simply because they need to spot for the marder.

That the dps is lowered is a good thing but LOS bonus should stay otherwise we have a situation where shermans will roll ride in and start circle strafing

[Splitmonkey]

I have a feeling they are going to revert some of the marder changes.

[zzSleeper]

The LOS nerf is a bit extreme the pe doesn't have a spotter unit. in fact the marder was the spotter unit. if you want to use a marder now your troops are going to take a lot of unnecessary risks simply because they need to spot for the marder.

That the dps is lowered is a good thing but LOS bonus should stay otherwise we have a situation where shermans will roll ride in and start circle strafing


PE doesnt have a spotter unit? You mean like the ketten? Or any infantry/vehicle? Or a vampire HT?

Shermans SHOULD be able to roll in and start circle strafing, learn to support your marder. I dont expect my M10 to solo a panzer IV, or my pak to solo a sherman, why the hell should a marder solo a sherman?


Marder needs a cost decrease of 100mp and 10 fuel to keep in line with the major nerf it got, else its useless.


Ya lets make it 200mp and 30 fuel.

Think about that for a second, then you realize how overpowered that is. Even post nerf its still the 2nd best AT weapon in the game, the first being a firefly, which costs LOADS more than a marder(88 doesnt count cause it cant move).

[Tseng_Fox]

Ya lets make it 200mp and 30 fuel.

Think about that for a second, then you realize how overpowered that is. Even post nerf its still the 2nd best AT weapon in the game, the first being a firefly, which costs LOADS more than a marder(88 doesnt count cause it cant move).

I'm talking about the now overpriced research for it. You can't expect the research to cost what it did when the units effectiveness, the primary AT of PE, has been nerfed hard, do you?

Stop suggesting Vampire HT's are well. Its well-known that unit is worthless and a resource sink. Building it is asking to lose.

[zzSleeper]

I'm talking about the now overpriced research for it. You can't expect the research to cost what it did when the units effectiveness, the primary AT of PE, has been nerfed hard, do you?

Then you should state its the research, because your post says the Marder, not the research cost for the marder.

And I support a cost decrease for the research, in fact I already brought it up before you. It should cost 10-20 fuel less to research and 50 less mp to research.


Stop suggesting Vampire HT's are well. Its well-known that unit is worthless and a resource sink. Building it is asking to lose.

Vampire HT does fine as a spotter unit, what do you think US or wehr builds for their spotter? A sniper? No, they use a jeep/bike.

[Tseng_Fox]

Jeeps/Bikes are smaller and are better at moving about. Vampires are big, clunky armoured HT's which are asking to get killed.

Vampires are big and easy to take out, making them a easy target before it can spot the tank.

[zzSleeper]

Physical size means its easier to take out? What? The HT also have lots more hp than the bike/jeep.

Vampire HT also has super acceleration from the buff(not so pointless now is it?) and larger sight radius as well as detection radius compared to the bike/jeep.

Or you can just use a ketten, which can cap and has 30! stealth detection radius, bikes/jeeps only have 18.

[Tseng_Fox]

Vampire HT also has super acceleration from the buff(not so pointless now is it?) and larger sight radius as well as detection radius compared to the bike/jeep.

Yes, super acceleration is pretty pointless since it hasnt addressed the bugs that the unit has. Its supposed to be used to drain resources.

Larger size means its harder to move about. Pathing issues in some maps.

Ketten is supposed to be the spotter for PE, but its more frail than a Jeep or Motorbike.

[zzSleeper]

And cheaper, and spots better, and has a special ability according to your doctrine.

Its not much more fragile than a bike.

[Tseng_Fox]

Jeep can kill a ketten fairly easily by using an exploit. Enough said.

[zzSleeper]

First of all, its not an exploit.

Second of all, we're discussing the merits of the ketten as a spotting unit, how is this jeep going to drive up to your spotting ketten and kill it? Your marder will just sit there and let it do this?

[Tseng_Fox]

No, but I'm showing how frail that the Ketten is. What do you think will happen when the ketten thats trying to spot ,so that the marder can hit the sherman, bumps into a Riflemen squad (now with buffed vet so much easier to get vet2)?

Yes. It is an exploit. I don't think Relic wanted people abusing the pathing of units.

[Tigmyth]

First of all, its not an exploit.

And thus zzSleeper's credibility disappears quicker than the Marder's usefullness. Unless, of course, you are trying to suggest that it is a BUG rather than an exploit.

[Thinking42Man]

Maybe Field Craft should give all PGren/AG/TB units increased sight radius (10-20% increase) to make it more attractive and help offset the Marder changes.

[Tseng_Fox]

Sounds fair.

[Boogem]

Oh no the Marder needs a spotter. Now its use has to be the same as other AT guns. It still out perform other AT guns. All other AT guns need support and are easily disabled. This AT just happens to be disabled by means of AT and not AI. AT57 needs more than 1 to be an effective tank KILLER. It also needs support from stickies and RR/zooks. Now so does the marder. Your inf generally fights in front of it anyway, sight bonus nerf will be hardly noticeable. Now you have to use your Marder as support and not an offensive weapon. This is promoting combined arms. You also have AT nades and AT HT with TB ability as well as schreks. Stickies is a global upgrade, so are AT nades. You buy schreks as you do RRs. Stop whining cos you have to use more than 2 forms of AT now. vCoH factions have had to since OF came out.

[zzSleeper]

No, but I'm showing how frail that the Ketten is. What do you think will happen when the ketten thats trying to spot ,so that the marder can hit the sherman, bumps into a Riflemen squad (now with buffed vet so much easier to get vet2)?

You mean the same way a jeep gets killed by one faust and bike dies to one sticky? Learn to micro your units.


Yes. It is an exploit. I don't think Relic wanted people abusing the pathing of units


And thus zzSleeper's credibility disappears quicker than the Marder's usefullness. Unless, of course, you are trying to suggest that it is a BUG rather than an exploit.

I suppose both of you have a quote from relic stating that it is an exploit right?

Oh wait, you don't. You think its an exploit, because you can't fathom that relic intended for the pathing of units to be utilized to kill them.

I've got news for you, throwing bikes at M10s to stop them from circle strafing stugs have been done since retail, relic has never done anything about it and never stated that it was an unintended exploit/feature. Using jeeps to block kettens from running away is the same exact thing. You're deluding yourselves if you think relic will change that.

The evidence points to relic considering a perfectly valid game mechanic rather than an exploit, given how similar this is to the bike blocking M10 and how they've done nothing about it since OF release.

[PeterPeterson1]

Damage decrease is allright.
Sight increase is stupid. 40 fuel only for resistence against small arms, flamers and mortar? C'mon. Before the marder could leave lockdown the rifle blob stickeyed it to death.

If the sight range isn't changed again i could come along with the deletion of he lockdown time. If it should act like a resistent AT gun with the same range then make it drive instantly again!


First of all, its not an exploit.

LOL if it's about us vs pe you are the most biased guy in the forum. You defended every bug/exploit as a good thing for US. I am laughing so much.


Pathing exploit is not a bug its a chance to win against PE.

SR wasn't the I win button it was the I have a chance against pe button.

You are such a funny guy!

[Tseng_Fox]

Oh no the Marder needs a spotter. Now its use has to be the same as other AT guns. It still out perform other AT guns. All other AT guns need support and are easily disabled. This AT just happens to be disabled by means of AT and not AI. AT57 needs more than 1 to be an effective tank KILLER. It also needs support from stickies and RR/zooks. Now so does the marder. Your inf generally fights in front of it anyway, sight bonus nerf will be hardly noticeable. Now you have to use your Marder as support and not an offensive weapon. This is promoting combined arms. You also have AT nades and AT HT with TB ability as well as schreks. Stickies is a global upgrade, so are AT nades. You buy schreks as you do RRs. Stop whining cos you have to use more than 2 forms of AT now. vCoH factions have had to since OF came out.

AT grenades suck really bad unless there is an AT-HT (which is likely to be targetted first).

It also costs 40fuel(!) and all it gets is mobility and resistance to flamers/snipers? 40 fuel plus the fuel from the research is not worth it. Considering how cheap it is for Wehr/US at guns.

Its not even the spotting thats the problem. Its that its just not worth siting it. A slight incease in rate of fire and 5m sight increase. Great...

Its not going to help when a Firefly (which is already OP) comes into range, since shrecks and AT grenades will not be able to hit it at range.


Oh wait, you don't. You think its an exploit, because you can't fathom that relic intended for the pathing of units to be utilized to kill them.

I've got news for you, throwing bikes at M10s to stop them from circle strafing stugs have been done since retail, relic has never done anything about it and never stated that it was an unintended exploit/feature. Using jeeps to block kettens from running away is the same exact thing. You're deluding yourselves if you think relic will change that.

The evidence points to relic considering a perfectly valid game mechanic rather than an exploit, given how similar this is to the bike blocking M10 and how they've done nothing about it since OF release.

Wheres the post that specifically said it wasn't an exploit? as far as I know they could just be ignoring it, just like tier 1 PE has been ignored for too long causing many of the imbalances in the PE/US matchup.

[zzSleeper]

AT grenades suck really bad unless there is an AT-HT (which is likely to be targetted first).

Its not even the spotting thats the problem. Its that its just not worth siting it. A slight incease in rate of fire and 5m sight increase. Great...

Its not going to help when a Firefly (which is already OP) comes into range, since shrecks and AT grenades will not be able to hit it at range.

Increase rof and turning rate as well as penetration(+35% penetration remember) is not a good enough reason?

Also, if you can't counter fireflies with a faction that has marders which have the same exact range as them, how do you think wehr do it? You think wehr just rolls over and dies when a firefly shows up?


Wheres the post that specifically said it wasn't an exploit? as far as I know they could just be ignoring it, just like tier 1 PE has been ignored for too long causing many of the imbalances in the PE/US matchup.

And relic has never stated that circle strafing is not an exploit, relic has never stated that turning a vehicle in the direction of the circle strafe to keep up with it is not an exploit, relic has never stated that planting mines at your opponent's call in point isn't an exploit. Do I really need to list the 50 million things relic never stated not being exploits?

The burden of proof is on you to prove that its an exploit. Asking me to prove that its not an exploit is like asking me to prove there isn't a giant invisible magical purple flying elephant in your room.

[Boogem]

AT grenades suck really bad unless there is an AT-HT (which is likely to be targetted first).

Look at the range of the TB ability. It's massive. Get in range, break treads, back off.


Its not even the spotting thats the problem. Its that its just not worth siting it. A slight incease in rate of fire and 5m sight increase. Great...

This is still free ability that increases the amount of dps it does. When you can see you're gonna get attacked, start unsighting and then move, ATguns require micro to keep them alive and move soo slow when not on roads, now so does the marder. So siting is now more situational instead of a no brainer. It's still free and improves dps which is now more important now the damage bonus has been nerfed.

[Tseng_Fox]

Better to just leave it as it is, unsited. That way you can move once the imba firefly comes or when a sherman/stuart/m10 comes.


Increase rof and turning rate as well as penetration(+35% penetration remember) is not a good enough reason?

Nope. It still won't take out a tank before it gets in range which means because of its HP and armour it will die.

Double AT efforts + double shreck squads will be a requirement now. I'm going to rely alot more on Hetzers from the patch notes so far. Its more reliable.

[zzSleeper]

Better to just leave it as it is, unsited. That way you can move once the imba firefly comes or when a sherman/stuart/m10 comes.

I'm not even gonna bother now, because a mobile marder can run away from a M10/stuart/sherman right?


Nope. It still won't take out a tank before it gets in range which means because of its HP and armour it will die.

Double AT efforts + double shreck squads will be a requirement now. I'm going to rely alot more on Hetzers from the patch notes so far. Its more reliable.

Thats the freaking point. It SHOULD lose to medium tanks, the same freaking way a M10 loses to panzer IVs and stug(well, maybe not after this patch) loses to shermans, the same way 57mm loses to panzer IVs and paks loses to shermans.

Its a cost effective counter, not a straight up one versus one counter.

Going LHS tank hunter is also pretty hilarious, given how powerful the jagd is.

Also, given your selective quoting I'm gonna assume you agree with me on the exploit issue, right?

[PeterPeterson1]

The burden of proof is on you to prove that its an exploit. Asking me to prove that its not an exploit is like asking me to prove there isn't a giant invisible magical purple flying elephant in your room.

Lol, i took this sentence from a post some time ago against you and i am still waiting for a replay. But it is so long ago i can't remember.

It is a bug and you are a bug abuser. Relic told us some a long time ago that it is a problem of pathfinding completely trough the engine. The effect was decreased in a former patch but i think they never could stop it completely. Pathfinding blocking was, is and will be an unfair method and i know you will use it for your good.

[dEmOnSpAwN]

"given how powerful the jagd was "

- US 57mm AT gun penetration modifier vs Jagdpanthers increased from appox .08 to .18.
- US M10 3in main gun penetration increased 20% (from approx .35 to .42) vs Panzer Elite Jagdpanther
- US Sherman 76mm upgraded gun penetration increased 20% (from approx .32 to .38) vs Panzer Elite Jagdpanther
- Panzer Elite Vehicles shared veterancy radius reduced from 35m to 25m.
- Panzer Elite vehicles veterancy multiplier reduced from 1 to .9.
- Panzer Elite Jagdpanther health reduced from 1800 to 1600.

[Tseng_Fox]

Thats the freaking point. It SHOULD lose to medium tanks, the same freaking way a M10 loses to panzer IVs and stug(well, maybe not after this patch) loses to shermans, the same way 57mm loses to panzer IVs and paks loses to shermans.

Right...so it should lose to medium tanks? so what should it counter? Jeeps?

It certainly isn't cost effective. Considering the research + 40 fuel for each one and 300 manpower.

Jagdpanther got nerfed and even then you only get one. left side gets double shrecks, double AT grenades and Hetzers. Its going to be alot more viable next patch.

I'm not going to comment on the exploit issue any more, since you can't tell the difference between an exploit and a bug.

[zzSleeper]

Lol, it took this sentence from a post some time ago against you and i am still waiting for a replay. But it is so long ago i can't remember.

What are you even babbling about now?


It is a bug and you are a bug abuser. Relic told us some a long time ago that it is a problem of pathfinding completely trough the engine. The effect was decreased in a former patch but i think they never could stop it completely. Pathfinding blocking was, is and will be an unfair method and i know you will use it for your good.

Yes I kill a lot of kettens while playing as wehrmacht. Also, I assume you have the quote from relic that its a bug right?


Right...so it should lose to medium tanks? so what should it counter? Jeeps?

I could ask you the same thing, what is the M10 supposed to counter when it loses to the opposing faction's medium tanks?


It certainly isn't cost effective. Considering the research + 40 fuel for each one and 300 manpower.

Still cheaper than a M10.


Jagdpanther got nerfed and even then you only get one. left side gets double shrecks, double AT grenades and Hetzers. Its going to be alot more viable next patch.

I sincerely doubt you will see many high level players switching from hetzer-> jagd or straight RHS TD to get double AT efforts.


I'm not going to comment on the exploit issue any more, since you can't tell the difference between an exploit and a bug.

That sentence is pretty funny. You said it was an exploit, not a bug, so are you retracting your earlier statement that it was an exploit? Or are you going to prove that its an exploit?

[Boogem]

Nope. It still won't take out a tank before it gets in range which means because of its HP and armour it will die.


You're talking like a single marder will be useless because it can't kill a tank on it's own before the tank kills the marder. True of all AT guns. Just one will keep a tank at bay and make it think twice. Combined AT. Try fighting a KT or Jdag every game and you'll soon learn what combined AT is. You're basically saying you're not gonna use a marder now because it can't beat a tank one on one. If you're worried about it being assaulted by light vehicles you have ATHT/schreks/AT nades. Worried about assault from inf.......i'm not gonna list the vast PE AI.

[Tseng_Fox]

All I'm worried about is that M8's/M10's backed up with rifles and the common Airborne blob will become too strong versus PE, expecially considering the changes to veterancy.

Combined arms would work, but what do you do when the rifles are in green cover and vet 2? you cant move up mp44'd grens cause they'll get cut down, while the blob fires up and rushes the marder taking it out, allowing the M8 to run riot.

We'll see what happens when the patch comes out though. I'm very skeptical but I'll wait till the patch is out before email my complaints.

[zzSleeper]

All I'm worried about is that M8's/M10's backed up with rifles and the common Airborne blob will become too strong versus PE, expecially considering the changes to veterancy.

Combined arms would work, but what do you do when the rifles are in green cover and vet 2? you cant move up mp44'd grens cause they'll get cut down, while the blob fires up and rushes the marder taking it out, allowing the M8 to run riot.

So this magical blob has magical cover that follows them while they fire up and rush your vehicles, and at the same time magically pushes your MP44 PGs away and turn your G43 PGs into harmless bunnies.

:banghead:

[Thinking42Man]

If you change the Marder lockdown mechanic, make sure you try reducing the 'unlock' timer before eliminating it entirely. I think it's a profitable angle. Would even like to see the Mortar HT using this mechanic.

[CroatNotBorat]

the common Airborne blob
At 375 per squad and 45 per reinforced man, on a faction with seriously low manpower income, there is no such thing as "Airborne blob" (especially not if you are also talking about MP, TD, and units from both). Two squads of Paratroopers are generally the most you will see in a game.

[nfoo]

Look:

The Marder should not be, in any way, be able to SPOT FOR ITSELF. PERIOD!
This "idea" is so fu**** up, I don't know how much.
Right now the Marders is effectively a spotter for your other troops.

The Marder as is - WITHOUT SUPPORT (!) - can shoot at approaching Vehicles without them being able to fire back or even see them!

Are you out of your mind? Some of you seriously suggest that this is how it should be?
The best AT gun in the game, highly mobile, with a free ability to increase it's power DOESN'T need a spotter? Like every long range weapon in the game, needs? It spots for itself? Are you crazy?

This is absolut a great example what is wrong in COH right now and DESPERATLY needs changing.
It is as imbalanced as it can get.

In Retail, as it is right now, the MARDER is effectively A SPOTTER for all other troops.
PE players like to place their other troops BEHIND the marder, because it spots for them. This is a clusterfu**!!! Hide your AC behind the Marder: don't say it isn't so.

There is not one viable argument to support keeping the magic LOS-Increase.
The Marder is fine, cost is balanced and it is the best AT gun.

LOS-decrease will FINALY force PE to play as playing should be in COH:
Mix of units and Micro. A front line of units supported by the Marder as Anti Tank.

That some players here insist on being unable to protect their marders against the raging AB / Rangers: OMG! That's such a lousy bs ... sorry: I just ignore that.
I will not get in a discussion about how balanced AB / Rangers are: let me spoil it: they are. Period. (2v2 blob problems have nothing to do with the units itself but with other fators which are being adressed in beta)

Don't you see that changes like these finally force PE to react to the situation and mix their units to support each other, instead of sticking TO THE SAME BUILD every single time, which forces the SAME BUILD every thime, because all other options simply don't work for US!
PE is a great, creative faction with diverse units and great possibilitys, yet all the creativity is gone because of the apparent imbalances some units obviously have:
That means they work without support by other units, they can rely on themself - like the Marder - and don't need support from other units. And this has to be changed. Yesterday.

The match up US vs. PE is broken, and it's because of nonsense bonuses the PE get, like this here, that screwed it. Enough of it already!





the common Airborne blob

At 375 per squad and 45 per reinforced man, on a faction with seriously low manpower income, there is no such thing as "Airborne blob" (especially not if you are also talking about MP, TD, and units from both). Two squads of Paratroopers are generally the most you will see in a game.


Common Airborne Blob:

The BS about Rangers and Airborne has to stop. I can't stand it anymore. Both a expensive Elite units coming from CP, which are the only other Inf US get AT ALL!
And they are balanced as can be: Rangers / Inf Doc gives up on AT-power for Inf stopping - Zookas got nerfed, can easily be outmicroed.
AB gives up on Inf-Stopping-Power, are easily ripped apart by any other Inf. Well microed AC / Ostwind rip any Inf appart. Even Ab and Rangers. Ad your own Inf: and boom. Good counter.

Why are there blobs? Because of imbalances the US faces.
If you talk about AB / Ranger blobs in 2v2, you face double US: and you now that US is right now underpowered in every extend against PE and in a 2v2 situation. The only matchup that works is 2 US vs. 2 Wehr: any you tell me those matches are always decided by AB / Rangers blobs. Stop it already.

A lot of you guys fail to see the real roots for the problems and scream and shout without thinking about the big picture: seriously, COH has to be changed. It has to safed! It is in desperate need of help: stop blocking that.

[elite]

This game is getting worse and worse.
PE infantry was always a shit, and now they ruin all of our panzers. It sucks man!!!
I've told it several times: quality vs quantity should be the key to balance Axis vs Allies.
But nobody listens. (sigh)

[Thinking42Man]

I will only repeat myself once.


Maybe Field Craft should give all PGren/AG/TB units increased sight radius (10-20% increase) to make it more attractive and help offset the Marder changes.

[Pyro Paul]

This game is getting worse and worse.
PE infantry was always a shit, and now they ruin all of our panzers. It sucks man!!!
I've told it several times: quality vs quantity should be the key to balance Axis vs Allies.
But nobody listens. (sigh)

that is because Quality vs Quantity is not a valid balanced aurgument.

for instance:
Quality = Rifle Sections. best allied Primary infantry in the game
Quantity = Pios. weakest infantry unit in the game.

you have 2 tommy squads and hell even 2 LTs... i have 6 Pio squads. both 12 men. we pit both against one another.

guess who wins?

Pioneers! Because computers favors Quantity


you can't balance quantity verses quality because quantity will always win in computers. It is why all the computer simulations on a third world war between the US and China always seems to favor china. Even though the US has proven on 2 diffrent real world events that americans could not only compete but they could also possibly win such a war. the computer always favors numbers. Computers are built off of mathmatics, and mathmatical odds tend to favor the numarically superior.


I will only repeat myself once.

i'll agree with that. a couple of units need to have visual advantages up to be truee spotting units. because it isn't like PE is giving a non-doctrine stealthed moving unit (sniper) or high LoS highly mobile unit (Jeep/bike) which could provide recon.


or Perhapse you could make a munitions ability upgrade (binoculars) on marders which increase their default visual range of 'Sited gun' to 10 or something

[Thinking42Man]

or Perhapse you could make a munitions ability upgrade (binoculars) on marders which increase their default visual range of 'Sited gun' to 10 or something

Call it 25mun on a 90sec timer and we can :beer: to it.

[Tod]

Sigh, I actually get the feeling there are more peole complaining about changes than playing the game - and those threads grow so fast most decents comments just get drowned...

I must say that I dislike this Marder nerf - not because the Marder got nerfed, but because the Site Main Gun took all the beating. The Marder is a bit like other factions AT guns, only more mobile as it can fight on the move and without setting up, but has less power when doing so compared to his stationary state. Setting up should make a real difference (as it is the key concept of long-range AT units), so the nerf should be to the Marders base stats, while keeping Site Main Gun as it was or making it even better.

[Thinking42Man]

I like the idea that Marders work in small numbers in conjunction with either Shreked inf (In HT) Inf, amongst Roadblock lines*, combined with Hetzers or Jagdpanthers, or alongside 88s. *Preferably with mines covering its sides and likely vehicle paths.

[nfoo]

TOD:

Setting up MAKES A DIFFERENCE!

Man, don't you get it:
the idea that an AT GUN (!!!) spots on it's own AND even spots for the other troops is totally messed up. Period.

You must AND you CAN EASILY spot for your Marders.
It's still a very cost effective, strong unit: the best AT GUN in the game.



PE infantry was always a shit, and now they ruin all of our panzers. It sucks man!!!


Sorry: :help: :crazy: :banghead:

(PE Infantry WEAK? MARDERS are TANKS? ARGGGGHHH!)

[SgtWilson]

I think the sight range change is entirely sensible and brings the gameplay into line with other factions.

If Relic really mean the damage modifier, then that still leaves it with the same damage as a 17pdr.

Even with these changes, PE still have the best AT platform in the game, with equal or better damage, range and penetration and faster reload than a Firefly+CT. And the FF+CT is far more expensive.

IMO, this nerf is still not enough. It really needs the 25% modifier against US tanks removed.

[Tseng_Fox]

Its not supposed to be the same as the 57mm or Pak though since it costs fuel.

Firefly has better armour than the Marder though too. Plus if you go RSE, Fireflies get Hull Down.

17 lbr gets armour piercing rounds while Marder gets... site main gun...wow.

Marder needs to be looked at again. The overnerf means that american tanks are now viable, but Marder will have lost its usefulness against Brits.

[SgtWilson]

but Marder will have lost its usefulness against Brits.

Tseng,

I think there's a massive overreaction to this "nerf". If Relic mean damage, then its a 10% loss - its still in the same league as a 17pdr. And if you want to mix in Doctrine specific abilities, you have APCR upgrades in TD and Luft gives you an invisible Kett for spotting.

If they mean penetration - thats a bit worse, but only at short range. Long range penetration bonus (IIRC) was only 1.09. It was 1.23 at medium and 1.35 at short range. And you normally use your Marder at long range anyway, so again, its a 10% reduction.

So whether its penetration or damage, you can still make the Marder extremely effective with a bit more effort in micro.

And against Brits, well, you've seen the nerf to emplacements, so how come its useless all of a sudden?

As for US tanks becoming viable - this nerf will not change that situation as long as the 25% bonus remains.

[Tseng_Fox]

I think there's a massive overreaction to this "nerf". If Relic mean damage, then its a 10% loss - its still in the same league as a 17pdr. And if you want to mix in Doctrine specific abilities, you have APCR upgrades in TD and Luft gives you an invisible Kett for spotting.

Depends. Most people will likely stick with Tank Destroyers since its the only reliable doctrine PE have. Scorched Earth got gimped and has become the new armour, while Luftwaffe is only good for the ketten and the Fallshrimjager.

From what it looks like, the US tank bonus will most likely be removed when they bring armour back, which means Marders will have to try and compete with Shermans. If this does happen, I'm going to just stick to PanzerGrenediers and Infantry HT, with AT-HT and Hetzer for AT.

As I've said before its not the nerfs themselves that annoy me, its that its easier now to rush close to the marder and its support while taken less casualities thanks to easy American Vet, buffed Shermans and M8's. Its the combination of many, many, many American buffs and many, many PE nerfs which coupled with already weak PE armour that their units have, makes me skeptical.

I can't even try to revive the Marder with the Bergetiger either since that got nerfed too much.

I used the Marder against brits because it was the only reliable thing that could take out the trucks and stop them from sitting on a good point. Now I'll have to try out Panzer IV's in that role and hope to god he dosent make Fireflies.

[Tod]

TOD:

Setting up MAKES A DIFFERENCE!

Man, don't you get it:
the idea that an AT GUN (!!!) spots on it's own AND even spots for the other troops is totally messed up. Period.

You must AND you CAN EASILY spot for your Marders.
It's still a very cost effective, strong unit: the best AT GUN in the game.

Eehm...you didn't read my post, did you? :wtf2: I you did really read it, read it again please.

I said that the nerf was needed, but if we took base damage away instead of the bonus from Site, it would be much better for gameplay.

[classic77]

The Marders range wasn't decreased, its sight range was..

Every other faction has to spot for AT guns, and every other faction has to deal with the risk of losing their spotter.

I have no idea why the Marder should have EVER been an exception to this. And for those of you saying that since it has been nerfed, cost should be reduced...that is only valid if you're working on the assumption that the cost was balanced in the first place...maybe it should have been more expensive for how good it was...

[nfoo]

Yes,TOD I did:

The increased LOS has to go: it makes no sense that the MARDER sights for itself and for other units.

I repeat myself: an AT GUN that outranges tanks on it's own, without the help of a spotter IS completly **** up.
The Marder shout outrange tanks, of course it should!
BUT NOT ON IT'S OWN!

I mean: do you really not get what imbalance that brings into the game?

As I said before: PE players even like to put their Units behind Marders because of their increased LOS: because then you know what's coming. This is really **** up.

And in addition it's bonuses against US have to go: they will still kill the weak US tanks fast enough.

--------------

Of course PE-Only players start to scream and shout: this is an awesome imbalance and why lose an obvious edge over your opponent.

But, hey, I like to play all factions - except Brits - and I would like the game to be balanced ... But, hey, that's just me.

[Tod]

I mean: do you really not get what imbalance that brings into the game?
WTF? Now I really don't understand you...Marder nerf so that it can't outrange everything on its own is fine by me, I support it goddamn!
I just want that the Site ability still makes a big difference compared to the mobile version (which can be achieved by nerfing the normal stats) so that PE players just don't run around and use it unsighted all the time. What is so hard to understand about that?

[Wischmopp]

I really think with the Marder III nerf, PE is pretty much back in line. The Marder was much too omnipotent with its spotter AND killer abilities. Now it is only a killer, like it should and cannot be used to do reconnaissance on enemy territory also.

The Site ability is still pretty good against heavy tanks with better penetration and higher rate of fire. It will need a good position to be effective now, just like u would place a 88mm Flak.

[Alaz4TR]

I don't understand these kind of nerfs?? So now if you lock down a Marder you gain what??? In game it says "you sacrifice mobility for damage." Now what are they gonna do, remove it altogether??

Relic did great job with this last patch. But I don't think this is a proper way to nerf Marder. If it needed a nerf against American tanks, than adjust damage modifier against American tanks. PE already has less AT weapons than any other faction. If these kind of nerf continue for PE, they will need to rename them as "Halftrack Elite" or "Infantry Elite", because they are the only viable units left that PE player really can count on.

Relic has goodwill, I belive that, but this was not a proper way to address the problem. (I am also against Wirbelwind re-nerf which was a little bit harsh I think)

[Tseng_Fox]

I don't see any point in siting the main gun now since its a neglible buff.

Can 'Site main Gun' be looked at for Marder III? This ability should have something decent since you are risking it by using the Siting ability.

Perhaps a slight armour/health increase too? in exchange for the removal of the US tank bonus?

This is fair considering that the units it has to counter can easily kill it or any other HT (except maybe AT-HT)


so if you are saying that site main gun isnt worth it for 25% faster rate of fire and increased dmg or penetration (its unclear at this time which one is it) and 5 more sight, then im sorry. only drawback is that marder cant move for 3 seconds.

Its not worth it because most maps it can be fairly easily flanked when sited. Its turn speed is slow and it dosent have a turret. The faster rate of fire/penetration dosent help against Fire-up'd infantry. 5m more sight is barely noticeable.

Its drawback is pretty major considering how weak its armour/HP is.

[bavbav]

oh man...........

Sight Radius +20 +20 Sight Radius
Weapon Reload 0.75 25% Reduction
Weapon Penetration 1.35 35% Bonus
Weapon Damage 1.1 10% Bonus

this is now.

now instead of 20+ sight it gets 5+, that 15 nerf when sited

and dmg nerf is unclear. if its dmg, then its only 0.1 less. but if its penetration nerfs, its 0.35 less from 1.35.

so if you are saying that site main gun isnt worth it for 25% faster rate of fire and increased dmg or penetration (its unclear at this time which one is it) and 5 more sight, then im sorry. only drawback is that marder cant move for 3 seconds.

do i need to remind that paks first strike is only 1 shot penetrating and doing more dmg. so site main gun is still far superior to it.

maybe you will not site marder all the time now. but everyone will still site them during combat. its just now that theyre not spotters anymore.

again i say: they rape buildings and trucks like no tommorow and bonus vs us tanks is still there.

[DrCloud]

I don't understand these kind of nerfs?? So now if you lock down a Marder you gain what??? In game it says "you sacrifice mobility for damage."
Increased rate of fire. Possibly increased penetration, although the vagaries of the changelog make that hard to determine. Both of those still increase overall damage, so it's not like the tooltip is lying.

In any case, I don't think siting the gun should offer a huge advantage anyway, because it's drawbacks are relatively minor. The Rapid Fire ability on the Panzer 4 locks the thing in place so that it cannot turn and takes sufficiently longer to cancel out of, which makes it a lot more of a balanced trade off. The Marder's Site Gun ability still allows the thing to rotate (which it needs given its pathetic firing arc, but that's another matter entirely) and can be cancelled out of much more quickly, which makes it considerably less of a hardship.

In other words, what bavbav said while I was typing all this crap XD

[Tseng_Fox]

Yeah, but the Panzer IV got buffed and with Skirts has pretty good armour when compared to the Marder III.

Also, yes it can turn, but its slow.

Again, how about a slight health/armour buff in exchange for removal of the US tank bonus, and leaving Site Main Gun alone?

[Ballist1x]

Siting the gun should provide a longer firing range and increased accuracy..maybe minor dmg increase also. Anything else is nerfable imo1

[Alaz4TR]

In old patch we can easily say Marder is a half tank, half AT gun. But now it became only a tank which doesn't have decent speed, maneuver and capable of killing other tanks in close range.

M10 Tank Destroyer
Manpower 300
Fuel 55
Health 400
Max Speed 6.8
Acceleration 1.7
Deceleration 3.8
Rotation 38

Marder III Tank Hunter
Manpower 300
Fuel 40
Health 375
Max Speed 6
Acceleration 2.5
Deceleration 4
Rotation 24

I mean this tank doesn't even have a rotatable turret. What a hell we are gonna do with in close range?? It will be like stugs aiming bug all over again?

Now in this current patch, 15 fuel differs too much!


Again, how about a slight health/armour buff in exchange for removal of the US tank bonus, and leaving Site Main Gun alone?

I second this idea. It should at least have a little longer life span if this nerf will not be changed.

[roflmao]

It comes out much earlier now.

A MarderIII in good hands back in 2.301 bascially negated any sort of US armor. Its a mobile AT gun, in 1v1's it was manageable cause you could outmicro it. But in team game where a whole myriad of other units from different players were nearby to support it, it was godly.

Everyone is forgetting that AT guns don't have insane LOS. And if the Marder is going to be a mobile AT gun, then it should not have insane LOS and require a spotter. I like the nerf's, Site main gun was ridiculous IMO.

[Alaz4TR]

I am not against nerfing it vs American tanks. They could adjust damage modifer against American armor or they can give American AT weapon more damage against Marder. Again, I think this nerf is not a proper way to address the problem.

[ZeroTwo]

I feel it is irrelevant to compare a Marder III and an M10, as they fill completely different roles.

Wow. Let me just say that I wildly swung my own opinion by the exercise in theory that follows.

A sample of AT Units:

The Marder III is quick in a straight line and packs a decent punch, it is extremely vulnerable to damage but comes with the ability to increase ROF for free.

The M10 is a T4 unit and is the fastest AT vehicle in the game with a quick and mobile turret, high damage, and medium (on the light side) armour.

The StuG is a slow, heavily armoured AT vehicle designed to operate with infantry support and to be tough enough to withdraw from combats.

The ATHT is a fast, unarmoured AT vehicle that deals comparatively low damage but compensates with powerful abilities.

The Sherman Firefly is a T4 unit with high damage, decent maneuver, decent armour, and has the ability to be greatly buffed by a nearby command tank.

I divide them thus;

Medium damage, average speed, Long Range, Light Armour, weak abilities - 6
High damage, high Speed, Medium Range, Medium Armour, no abilities - 8
Medium damage, average Speed, Medium Range, Heavy Armour, no abilities - 5
Low damage, High Speed, Long Range, No Armour, good abilities - 7
High damage, Average Speed, All Ranges, Heavy Armour, excellent abilities - 9

Arbitrary points values: 0, 1, 2, 3

The previous adjectives I would have assigned to the Marder III would have been;

Medium damage, Average Speed, Extreme/All Ranges, Light Armour, and excellent abilities, an arbitrary value of 9, bringing it to a comparable level to the Sherman Firefly or M10 Wolverine.

While I am seriously disappointed to see the Marder's ability to work alone and at extreme ranges disappear as it was the primary way I employed them (and enjoyed it!) I recognize that something needs to be done about the power of the unit. I would much prefer to have had the ROF bonus dropped and the damage bonus halved for Site Main Gun. That would force PE players to use more Marders in a group, instead of relying on one AT-Chaingun to hold an entire area. That means more resources spent on Marder IIIs and less to spend elsewhere to accomplish the same thing a single Marder used to be able to do.

[Tseng_Fox]

It comes out much earlier now.

How does it come out earlier now? its cost hasn't went down.

[natrapsmai]

Really the only thing that peeved me about the Marder in 2.301 was that it had magic bonuses against American armor to the point where you never saw a Sherman.

That and the Marders can't hit Greyhounds for some inexplicable reason. I realize this is for "balance" but ffs it doesn't make any sense and is the primary reason why the only American game to play is fast M8.

[Tseng_Fox]

As I've said before, remove the bonus versus american tanks, then give a small buff to armour/HP and things will be balanced.

[Harry]

As I've said before, remove the bonus versus american tanks, then give a small buff to armour/HP and things will be balanced. What? no, lol. I disagree. I retract my statement that its been overnerfed - after playing a game where a guy got mp44's and marders, didnt use one ket and just sat back as i tried over and over again to assault him i realized that its damage and sight destroyed me. No need to scout when it has that awesome radius, and he wrecked my grey hound and halftrack, i didnt lose them- but if they poked thier heads out it was back for immediate repairs.

[AntiCommie]

Does this mean a sited Marder also only has a 45 range? (Used to have +20 = 60?). If so, this kind of sucks. Now its going to be really hard to beat emplacements like bofors/17lbers and FFs. Other then the marder, and shreks, PE doesnt have good AT till Panthers, and really no anti emplacement.

[Ballist1x]

Other then the marder, and shreks, PE doesnt have good AT till Panthers

as opposed to whom? US have Stickies and 57mm - both arguably far worse than a Shreks + Marder combo...the panthers then ride in as ultimate overkill...

[Tseng_Fox]

Oh please. The Marder is getting a nerf, stop trying to whine about American AT. You already have the best Elite Infantry.

Shrecks + Marder combo will be nowhere near as effective now.

Also, if you let him get panthers, then your doing something wrong. You should have cut his fuel and been more aggressive.


What? no, lol. I disagree. I retract my statement that its been overnerfed - after playing a game where a guy got mp44's and marders, didnt use one ket and just sat back as i tried over and over again to assault him i realized that its damage and sight destroyed me. No need to scout when it has that awesome radius, and he wrecked my grey hound and halftrack, i didnt lose them- but if they poked thier heads out it was back for immediate repairs.

It dosent have a turret so can't have an awesome radius... besides the Marder's sight is getting nerfed so that it has to spot.

Besides, the patch isn't out so how do you know?

That + its weak armour and HP means its gonna be really weak considering the fuel costs needed to get it.

[yetanotherplayer]

AntiCommie, the range of the gun remains the same. The unit just can't see far enough to make complete use of it on its own.

[nfoo]

TOD:
I apologize.

BAVBAV:

Great post: Thanks!

AntiCommie:

No!! The Range of the Weapon stays the same! It's only how far it can see on it's own.
It means, it can still shoot as far as ever, but another units has to go in front and see the target for it.

Tseng_Fox:

It doesn't matter that id doesn't have a turret.
It rotates fast enough when locked down. IT get's a bonus for that, too.

You can not compare it to the M10: DAMNIT.
Compare it to the PAK and the 57mm, ok?

Then let's talk again.

[PeterPeterson1]

In teamgames it'll work fine. In 1v1 it'll get hard because of the missing spotter for tankhunter.

How do you spot for your marder against a brit if you don't go luftwaffe?

If you could answer this without a heavy loss of inf to vickers i be thankfully!

[classic77]

In teamgames it'll work fine. In 1v1 it'll get hard because of the missing spotter for tankhunter.

How do you spot for your marder against a brit if you don't go luftwaffe?

If you could answer this without a heavy loss of inf to vickers i be thankfully!

Mortar the vickers.

I know it's hard not to have an OP AT gun, but hey, no other factions have spotter AT guns either.

[sporty]

Removing the sight bonus is ok... possibly not the "sweet spot" yet, but it's understandable.

Hopefully the Brits, and their ability to get the sight range of stationary Marder for their tanks, will also be adressed :)

[Demonic Spoon]

Ketten works as a spotter anyway due to its huge sight range.

[Alaz4TR]

You can not compare it to the M10: DAMNIT.
Compare it to the PAK and the 57mm, ok?

If you are gonna compare Marder with PAK and 57mm, then you will notice PE don't have AT tank anymore (except late panthers which is not practical against pro players). In 2.301, it was kind of both, AT and AT tank. It was covering his slow rotation speed and not having a turret flaws with sight ability. But now it has become only a tank and not a good one though. Remove bonuses against American armor, I agree that. But this nerf is just gonna kill it. You will see if this patch released, nearly nobody is gonna bother with marder anymore.

[roflmao]

@Tseng:
Hmm, yeah, thats misleading. That now does not belong there, what I meant is "It comes out much earlier (then an m10)".

All other AT guns are vulnerable to infantry, the marder isnt. I mean yes, small arms can damage it, but it takes a much longer time to kill a marder than it does to kill a standard AT gun, you cannot recrew it, and its mobile. Now you can argue that the 40 fuel cost justifies this, and it does. But does it have to be better then a standard AT gun? I think not. I think both the damage modifier and the huge LOS were ridiculous. Although the LOS was a bigger issue IMO.

[Widowmaker1]

Well, to be fair we should wait till we use it ingame as things on paper and ingame can actually seem very different.

All I'm gonna say is if you nerf its Gun power then at least you need to boost other areas like...no longer taking damage from freeking Bars and M16. Increase its rotation rate.
And if you're gonna nerf the 'main gun sighting' then at least take it back where there was no 'unsighting' delay.

Plus, boost the bloody AT halftrack effectiveness vs tanks. M8Stuart will do damage to P4s/Stug while the AT haltack will always bounce off...give PE some bloody options...

[Ap0k]

Thread cleaned. Stick to the topic guys and stop getting sidetracked.

[AntiCommie]

Ok, as long as range is still as long as other AT it wont have a problem. I good nerf then.

[La Head]

i don't mind this nerf 'too' much, since it can still shoot far while just needing a spotter. fair enuf. however, it would be nice, as a compensation for the numerous PE nerfs, that this AT power is reinforced in some other form.

for example: may AT halftracks do a decent lot more damage against light vehicles and light tanks (M8s). it's wonderful that it has good abilities and such, but other than those fancy treadbreakers, it really hasn't contributed to the PE's AT efforts in any way. it would be more balanced i feel if good micro of AT halftracks can be a fair fight against equally microed m8s. as of now, it's kinda sad how americans MUST tech to motorpool to get the M8 to rape the PE and the PE MUST get schreks coupled with the ATHT to kill the bugger.

[zzSleeper]

All I'm gonna say is if you nerf its Gun power then at least you need to boost other areas like...no longer taking damage from freeking Bars and M16. Increase its rotation rate.


It takes barely any damage from bars, you could park 10 riflesquads next to it and shoot it for a month before you see real damage.

The Marder is only vulnerable to small arms fire in theory, it has tougher armor than the puma. Its not a vulnerability at all really, 30 cal with AP burst will take a loong time to kill it as well.

[yetanotherplayer]

...and don't bother trying with a Bren Carrier's AP rounds. I have. It didn't work.

[hashinshin]

Heres an idea.

Nerf the firefly, reduce it's damage by 10%

Reduce LoS for the command tank and firefly by 35%

Reduce firefly turn speed and backup speed.

And you'd still have a unit more than twice as powerful as the marderIII PRE nerf.

[sighman]

Right... anyone who is able to buy that bs probably has an IQ of lower then 70

[zzSleeper]

Heres an idea.

Nerf the firefly, reduce it's damage by 10%

Reduce LoS for the command tank and firefly by 35%

Reduce firefly turn speed and backup speed.

And you'd still have a unit more than twice as powerful as the marderIII PRE nerf.

Sure, as soon as the firefly costs 300 manpower and 40 fuel.

Also, pre-nerf marders were dead even with fireflys, its essentially a coin toss which one won in a 1v1 engagement(even with command tank present).

Its pretty funny that you think fireflys were twice as good as marders pre-nerf.

[hashinshin]

Fireflys won't lose to a panzer4.

Likewise, MarderIIIs consistantly lose to cromwells who flank speed up to them then circle strafe.

How about we nerf flireflys to 50 range, bring the panther back to 45 range, and call it even ?

[vfdarkcipher]

omg a panzer 4 is an infantry support tank, it is supposed to kill infantry and its gun is not designed for penetration agianst amour which is why a panzer 4 is not a tank killer however it has that stupid site ability which turns it too powerfull which can then destroy tanks like cromwells when it shouldnt be able to.

also cromwells are 300 manpower 70 fuel so are much more expensive than marder. and plus the 25 muntions for the ability.

[Alaz4TR]

PE already has lots of useless or let's say nearly useless units, I'm afraid this will add one more to that category bergetiger, AT HT, SC, Munition HT, Vampire and finally Marder :D

All I'm saying this is not a proper way to solve the problem. Take its bonus against Americans but don't make it practically useless by this nerf :D

[zzSleeper]

AT-HT and marder useless, thats hilarious.

[Tseng_Fox]

Well, AT-HT has use for its treadbreaker skill. It dosent deal that much damage itself, but its a combo-maker for Marder's and Panzershrecks and Hezters/Jagdpanthers.

Marder will have use still, but we need to see the changes the patch will have to see if its anywhere near as effective as it was before.

[Pyro Paul]

the ATHT is mostly useless because of its low health, low armor, and pathatically low penetration value.the only redeaming values are its abilities, which isn't exactly much to talk about unless if you are both floating munitions and have a Munitions halftrack in support.


and even then, it lacks any suggnificant punch against anything for it to have any value outside of its abilities.

it either needs a slight penetration boost, or perhapse 60 to 75 munitions ability called a Stielgranate 41 (http://www.tankmuseum.co.uk/colnd_0904.html) which would work in the same principle as the Panzerfaust. Stuart gets the deadly to infintry canister shot... so this would kind of like be the inverse of that, giving it a deadly to tanks shaped charge attack.

[Wischmopp]

Just played a game as PE and I can say that Marders still rock heavy. No big difference at all.

There is also a big incentive to go defensive if u have a Wehr ally, just for the sight bonus.

[Tseng_Fox]

Don't take 2vs2 into balance account. All armies are overpowered in it.

[bavbav]

what are you, Alaz4TR, completely biased towards pe. i bet you think pe was balanced when of came out with fsj and all that

marder still better than any 57mm or pak
scout car better than jeep or bike, it can turn into op and it can cap
berge is tank resurecter, what mor edo you want? resurect 1 tank, you get back what you payed for berge, plus he can still reapir faster than any unit in the game. resurect 2 and you probably win because of that. nerf didnt do much, tanks have big lower hp when resurected thats it. berge repair is still faster ingame so it repairs them in 15 seconds.
at ht is uber, disabling tanks and mobile sniper that cant be killed by just about anything

what about other units superiors to us/wehr counterparts hm? mortar ht for example?

on top of pe grens being more or less the best inf ingame aswell.

sure pe was fine in 2.00 patch wasnt it? :(

i still dont see why marder is useless now. its same as before, but needs spotters. meaning still best at ingame. lock it down when you are fighting

and fireflys lost to marders always unless they could circle. that shows much. sure firefly would need fursther nerf, particulary to its long range penetration. but never say marders arent better. cheaper, faster tech, while they dont have a turret, it doesnt matter once you have 2 or more when they can support eachother. 1 marder will get owned. you know, just like any other at gun out there without support. because marder is meant to be pe variation of at gun and not a tank like you guys want it to be. and for a variation of at gun, its better than those at guns. which shoudl be because it costs 40 fuel. however before nerf, it was too good.

and ill point out again: still owns buidlings and truck like no other at weapons and still has bonus vs us armor

[Tseng_Fox]

what are you, Alaz4TR, completely biased towards pe. i bet you think pe was balanced when of came out with fsj and all that

Maybe your the one who's biased against PE? have you played them?

Nice to see you didnt mention the useless units like the Munitions HT and Vampire HT or the fact that Scout Cars die like flies late game.

[Alaz4TR]

If they take away marder sight bonus, how PE will be able to kill emplacements and why should PE player bother with marder when he can have shrecks. Marder don't have decent armor like other tanks. It was his ability to see further which makes him very useful especially against brits. Now it has gone, so I think we will see less marder on the field. That's why I added it to useless category.

[CroatNotBorat]

the ATHT is mostly useless because of its low health, low armor, and pathatically low penetration value.the only redeaming values are its abilities, which isn't exactly much to talk about unless if you are both floating munitions and have a Munitions halftrack in support.
AT-HT: 700 manpower, 65 fuel, 40 ammo for treadbreaker
M8: 780 manpower, 140 fuel, 50 ammo for skirts

A hard counter to the M8 at less than half the fuel is mostly useless? Okay.



and even then, it lacks any suggnificant punch against anything for it to have any value outside of its abilities.
No problem. Give it some punch, but make sure the cost goes up by a minimum of 80-100 fuel.

[Alaz4TR]

and ill point out again: still owns buidlings and truck like no other at weapons and still has bonus vs us armor

I think you are being unreasonable here. All I am saying from the begining of this thread if it is too good vs American, take away its bonus vs American or decrease its damage or penetration. We are talking about a tank who can be owned by 2 BC with armor piercing rounds. It was usefull as AT more than AT Tank.

And I am not biased, I find brits' this nerf unfair either. Secured Resourcing should shared but it should have costed something. But this is not the thread is about.


British Resource upgrades no longer share with teammates. Secured Resourcing bonuses only apply to the player performing those upgrades.

[Pyro Paul]

AT-HT: 700 manpower, 65 fuel, 40 ammo for treadbreaker
M8: 780 manpower, 140 fuel, 50 ammo for skirts

A hard counter to the M8 at less than half the fuel is mostly useless? Okay.


a Directional weapon with only ~250 health dishing out 25-30 damage per shot against an Omni-directional weapon with 300 health dishing out 50 damage per shot...

yeah, i'll go with the Omni directional weapon, thank you.


the AT-HT is not a hard counter to Anything except maybe Jeeps... it being directional, having very low weapons arch. and having an unbeliviably weak punch against everything (30-45 damage on most all vehicals) ontop of their usually crap penetration... it is Useless. and that is being kind.

[Tseng_Fox]

I normally use it to support my Marder. But this patch I'm thinking of replacing Marders with Hetzers backed up by AT-HT.

I've never used the AT-HT for anything other than the Treadbreaker ability.

Perhaps someone should start a thread about it?

[Alaz4TR]

I ve never produced AT HT in a game more than one or two times. It has one useful ability which is Threadbreaker and it doesn't work against overrepaired tanks?? Why? I dont understand.

For Bergetiger, are they gonna remove 3x penetration bonus when recovering a tank, I wonder this?

[CroatNotBorat]

the AT-HT is not a hard counter to Anything except maybe Jeeps...
Play the game. The AT-HT doesn't even break a sweat destroying an M8.

[Tseng_Fox]

Play the game. The AT-HT doesn't even break a sweat destroying an M8.

If the PE player used Treadbreaker, then yeah.

If the PE player didnt use Treadbreaker, then the US player did something very very wrong.


For Bergetiger, are they gonna remove 3x penetration bonus when recovering a tank, I wonder this?

Doubt it. They don't want people using it at all.

[Melonplant]

If you're not building AT HTs, then it's no wonder m8s are eating you.

They destroy greyhounds with or without tread breaker, it's just treadbreaker allows it to be out of range.

I don't even get shrecks anymore.

[Tseng_Fox]

A well-microed M8 can avoid and circle-strafe the AT-HT though.

[sighman]

If the PE player didnt use Treadbreaker, then the US player did something very very wrong.

Sure and a cromwell will never use flank speed to run away from chasing shreck squads when it is in low health.

[Melonplant]

You can't circle strafe a AT HT. Now you're just being funny.

[Tseng_Fox]

You can't circle strafe a AT HT. Now you're just being funny.

You can if you think about it abit instead of driving straight ahead into it.

You know, use diversionary tactics. Make him try to snipe your infantry with the Focused Firing ability while you flank him with the M8, then stay on his tail. It isn't that fast at turning.

Admittedly thats map dependent though.

[Pershing720]

You would have to be lucky to do that. Treadbreaker is instant.

[Tseng_Fox]

Well, its got a cooldown. Use that to your advantage then.

It has to have some way of surviving an M8 attack, considering how low its health and armour is.

[Pershing720]

M8 also has low health/armor. You would have to send 2 M8s at it.

[Tseng_Fox]

M8's health and armour beats AT-HT, which is flimsy. As it was designed to be.

[Melonplant]

It turns very fast, as fast as a greyhound moves. It's one of the quickest turning units in the game, though the bike takes first place.

Your diversionary tactic gives the greyhound one extra shot. It would work wonders on a marder. Not on an ATHT.

[hashinshin]

A dedicated anti tank unit, which sucks at anti tank, might beat a unit which takes down light tanks and infantry with ease, with a turret, and armor skirts, and a top gunner... and americans consider this a problem ?

[Melonplant]

A dedicated anti tank unit, which sucks at anti tank, might beat a unit which takes down light tanks and infantry with ease, with a turret, and armor skirts, and a top gunner... and americans consider this a problem ?

Lets try this again.

A dedicated anti-everything unit, which sucks against shermans, might beat an m8 if it decides to drive in, show it's ass, not treadbreak, fire at infantry for the first two shots, then decide to focus on the greyhound. Then it's probably 50/50.

Treadbreak, drive out of range, sight with something, kill without taking any damage.

Or drive in and have a front to front fight with it. Still win.

Are you complaining that your AT HTs are dying to greyhounds? I can link you to some beginner videos if you'd like.

[hashinshin]

Ah. Right.

All those early game munitions we have to blow on the ATHT.

If we are playing this game, why don't you just chain throw grenades at the PE spotters eh ? You'd win too !

As much as I'd love to, 25 for every tread break, 40 for every focus fire.... and how much is the M8 paying ?

BTW, look up the ATHT's penetration and accuracy at long range. You can take an engineer squad from across the map and repair it before its killing the M8.

76% penetration with 65% accuracy. With 30 damage. Yeah.

[Pyro Paul]

Play the game. The AT-HT doesn't even break a sweat destroying an M8.


and trust me. i have played the game, i've spammed ATHT for the hell of it against a player that played with M8s. the ATHTs often don't stand a chance. too low healthed, low armored, and too weak of a shot to compete even with a greyhound and ontop of that it lacks a turret further gimping its over all effectiveness.


it needs a boost to its offencive potential, because right now, it is just a waste of resource.

[hashinshin]

If they upped the ATHT's range to 50, gave it a lower accuracy/penetration penalty at that long range, upped damage, upped life and armor... it might be worth it.

And fix it's tables against the stuart. It has above 200% pen (EASILY) and 1.5 damage against all light vehicles. It has 1.0 damage against stuart and .77 penetration against it. It will never kill a stuart...

So, its sometimes maybe decent if you spend munitions like you're crazy ... against america. And 102% useless against britain. What a joke of a unit/

[DrCloud]

As much as I'd love to, 25 for every tread break, 40 for every focus fire.... and how much is the M8 paying ?
50 for the skirts, for starters. The machine gunner upgrade seems pretty popular too, so that'd push it up to 100.

And hey, don't forget that the M8 costs more to tech to and is a more expensive unit.

[Pyro Paul]

It turns very fast, as fast as a greyhound moves. It's one of the quickest turning units in the game, though the bike takes first place.

Your diversionary tactic gives the greyhound one extra shot. It would work wonders on a marder. Not on an ATHT.


it doesn't matter if the ATHT turns very fast. it turning still constitutes it as being stationary where as the moving Greyhound is a moving target. the ATHT gets an accuracy penelty having a difficult time tagging the Greyhound, where as the greyhound has a much easier time of it.

ontop of that, the m2 and coaxel are widdling away the health of the already low health halftrack, making each shot that does hit all that much more deadly to the vehical.


sure you hit "tread Breaker' but then you find out that the ATHT can't win a slugfest against an M8...

[hashinshin]

Oh, and we will forget getting the ATHT puts you 120 fuel away from your first Pv4, doesn't allow MP44s, doesn't allow group zeal, doesn't let you get the marderIII or armored car out at any decent speed...

So you're teching completely to a unit which will suck against it's one true counter. Great.

Yeah, allow us to pay 100 munitions for the ATHT to have side skirts and a top gunner, I'd pay it.

You can't defend the ATHT, stop trying. It SUCKS. Thats why nobody uses it. IT SUCKS.

Dear lord. Allow us to pay 50 munitions for all our tanks to have side skirts. Maybe RRs wouldn't make all PE light vehicles instantly useless.

[natrapsmai]

Puts you 120 fuel away? the Pv4 and the ATHT (which only costs 15 fuel, btw) come out of the same building... so... no?

Agreed that it needs some love and that it cannot on its own beat an M8. Whoever said the ATHTs can beat a Greyhound in a slugfest is not playing the same game as everyone else.

[Tseng_Fox]

Relic seems to want us using a wide variety of AT units. That leaves us Panzershrecks, AT-HT and Marder for non-doctrine.

Marder was used too much, so it got nerfed. AT-HT should get a slight buff to promote its use a little more as a suppliment to other forms of AT, but still able to hold its own for a while before dying. Panzershrecks, although unreliable for PE, are okay as they are for defensive use.

Also, the name for the AT-HT is misleading. Anti-tank HT makes it seem as though it can go toe-to-toe with tanks, it should have been called 'Light Anti-Veichle Halftrack' since its only its Treadbreaker thats effective against tanks.

[Heroin]

Ya thats right but its still a shame they nerfed the marder sight radius so it will be very hard for PE players to counter tanks.

[Tseng_Fox]

Depends on the tank really. Shermans will be okay if you have a AT-HT. Only tanks thats going to be a major pain is the churchill(mainly because of the bonus it has versus the Marder) and the Firefly (its long range and strong AT abilites against a veichle faction)

The trick is going to be balancing enough Marders, AT-HTs and panzershrecks, while having enough AI to prevent counterattacks.

[CroatNotBorat]

Whoever said the ATHTs can beat a Greyhound in a slugfest is not playing the same game as everyone else.
I'd like to see a replay of an AT-HT losing to an M8, please.

[Tseng_Fox]

Why would you send a light veichle to take out a light veichle designed to take out light veichles in the first place?

[Heroin]

LOL Borat


I'd like to see a replay of an AT-HT losing to an M8, please.

Are you sane?^^ I thought you played coh before. Whats so hard to imagine if you flank an ATHT out of sight of the PE player rush to the ATHT and circle around its the same as killing a stug.

[CroatNotBorat]

Not Borat.

I seriously want to see one such replay, because I've played and watched hundreds of games, and I remember only ONE (I repeat: one) occurance of an AT-HT losing to an M8 - it was on St. Mere, and the AT-HT got stuck on something so the M8 could get behind it.

Slugfests end with the M8 exploding. I'd like to see otherwise.

[Tseng_Fox]

Isn't that the point?

[Melonplant]

You CANNOT circle strafe an AT HT. I have tried it. Relic specifically made it impossible to circle strafe an AT HT. Its turn speed is insane.

Clearly you guys are not using enough AT halftracks. They are a very powerful unit.

[Ap0k]

I'd love to know how a thread about marders became a thread about AT-HT's. Keep it on topic guys. AT-HT's is another discussion, which while having some relevance to this one, is not directly related to how the changes affect the marder itself.

If there's nothing more to be said on the topic, there's no need to drag it out simply for the sake of doing so.

[Tseng_Fox]

Powerful, but flimsy against all AT options.

I use them in every battle to pre-empt the M8.

[DrCloud]

Since the changelog was a bit confusing, I opened up the data for the Marder III's Site Main Gun ability in Corsix's Mod Studio to see exactly what had changed. I might have been Doing It Wrong (tm), but it looked to me like the damage modifier was still set to 1.1. The penetration modifier (which used to be 1.35) was nowhere to be found, so I guess that's what was actually removed.

Apologies if someone already pointed this out. It seemed likely that this was the change that had taken place, but I wasn't aware that anyone had checked.

I'm not sure that this makes much difference to the overall discussion since the sight range reduction seems the more contentious point anyway.

[hashinshin]

Ok.

Sigh.

Everyone complains oh the big nasty PE people always wrecking our tanks.

We never hear about the cromwell that used flank speed to run up to a MarderIII and take it down. Or the watchful arty user who plants an arty and kills it right after it locks down.

All we hear is OMG he had 3 MarderIIIs and I had no sectors but I built a sherman and LOST.

All the benefits of the MarderIII are seen, and typed about, rampantly. All the negatives, the hideously long time to get moving again after a lock down, the slow turn speed, the near inability to turn and shoot at once, the inability to shoot something moving back and forth in front of it... are never even discussed.

Please, trade us the firefly for a MarderIII, I'd love to only have to buy 1 tank rather than 3-5 MarderIIIs over the course of a game.

Oh, I'll trade overrepair for repair on PGs, ok ? (which will of course reduce the reinforce to 40, right?)

[Heroin]

hashinshin
Everyone complains oh the big nasty PE people always wrecking our tanks.


Well i dont get the point too. Ive played some games in beta and more in current coh:of and nothing changed on the way you take out a Marder III and its pretty easy since its armor is paperwork.

One point more why i dont really get the Marder nerfs.

BTW could someone explain this silly 1.35 change and what it actually does because everyone is walking in pitch black right now or it look at least so.^^

[Buguba]

It sems to me that Relic is talking about the penetration modifier, but they just used more generalized language to state it. They mean penetration, even if it they said damage. They're still correct saying that though, because penetration is still a part of damage.

Damage is dictated by several factors: base damage, damage modifiers (dictated by armour tables), cover, base penetration, and penetration modifiers (rear/side armour penetration).

They obviously reduced the penetration modifier from 1.35 to 1. Since vehicles cannot use cover, the only damage factors that determine overall damage would be base damage, damage modifiers, base penetration, and base penetration modifiers. The only value that is at 1.35 is the penetration modifier. If the penetration modifier was changed from 1.35 to 1, then that reduces overall damage because the penetration modifier is an aspect of damage.

I hope that clears things up.

[hashinshin]

Yeah, we pretty much got that the penetration modifier is removed. Sums that up for anyone unwilling to read a long thread.

I don't know what exactly relic wants out of PE. The MarderIII is our anti tank. This only forces more reliance on shrek squads which means double AT efforts which means we are right back to the freaking tank hunter doctrine being required.

Also, tank hunter doctrine gets ACPR rounds which will keep the MarderIII at pretty close to a 80% penetration against sherman, so atleast it will be able to take it out still, lol.

[Buguba]

Yeah, we pretty much got that the penetration modifier is removed. Sums that up for anyone unwilling to read a long thread.

Ha ha. I didn't catch that in there. It seemed everyone was too busy yelling about the AT Halftrack. :)

[hashinshin]

Well we are on the AT halftrack cause everything PE is getting nerfed continuously every patch we thought we might sneak in a ATHT buff to make up for it, as well as some early game AT.

[Manschi1978]

In my opinion the Marder nerf is not good. The only thing the Marder is good at, is his range of sigt and his powerful punch. He is very vulnerable to nearly everything. After this nerf, he is just a very expensive normal Wehrmacht Pak for 130 fuel (you need 130 fuel to get the first Marder) with 8 popcap. This will force the PE players to take the Tankhunter doctrine, because the Hetzer is a much better choice for no fuel. As we also know, the Panzerschreck is not as good as in earlier versions which means you need 2 of them per squad to have good anti-tank abilities. This is also a reason, why the PE players are forced to take Tankhunter. With the nerf of the Marder you remove the PE the only real good anti-tank unit before you have the 2 Panthers.

[Adonnay]

I don't get it either... where's the ELITE in Panzer Elite? The choice of tanks is worse than the regular Wehrmacht and now the only real benefit of the Marder, its sight range, is gone. It still packs quite a punch, sure, but what's it worth when it can't shoot often enough to compensate for its paper-armor? Not to mention it takes ages to turn. Marders are now even more easily taken down by Shermans... and they don't even need to be upgunned. They still lose when you spot them early enough, sure... but if you have more than one or two Marders you have to split your forces and do quite some microing if you want to keep all of them alive.

Until now when it was locked down you could still retreat from a 57mil when you first saw it (after the first shot) because you saw it early enough. Now the US can easily sneak up and finish it off before it can retreat because the Marder can never be fast enough to retreat out of range.

Sure, the main argument is that you now have to screen it with infantry. But viewed from the other side... does the 57mil need an inf/recon screen against a Marder? Sure as hell not... because the Marder, even if it poppped into view directly in front of the AT gun never stands a chance. And yes, both units are purely AT.

All that this has achieved now is that Tank Hunter really is the only viable doctrine now, like hashinshin already said.

[MrFinsch]

CroatNotBorat, you are together with socatillo one of the most biased persons on this board.
ATHT dies to standard riflefire like all HTs do, and if you are playing the game and you are not just theorycrafting about a 1on1 where the ATHT is not flanked and keeps the M8 at max distance the battle is very open. If the US player uses combined arms the ATHT will die easily. ATHT is nice but it does not hard counter a well used M8.

ATHT + anti tank grenades hard counter the M8.

[CroatNotBorat]

Replay of an AT-HT dying to an M8, pretty please.

[Kratos]

Thats quiet a lot micro, ammo and technology for a "hard counter".

I say eighter sight nerf or damage nerf and I would go with the damage nerf, leave the sight radius alone :P

[Tseng_Fox]

Then it won't counter anything.

[Manschi1978]

Thats quiet a lot micro, ammo and technology for a "hard counter".

I say eighter sight nerf or damage nerf and I would go with the damage nerf, leave the sight radius alone :P

The Marder doesn't need any nerf at all!!!!

[Harry]

The Marder doesn't need any nerf at all!!!! yes it does, thank goodness it is on the beta. It Obliterates armour in regular OF. Why deny that?

[Tseng_Fox]

It Obliterates armour and regular OF. Why deny that?

Maybe it would be wise not to send armour against it then.

Regardless a nerf was needed. A bit too overnerfed though.

Maybe something can be done to be compensated? such as a decrease in its research cost?

[yetanotherplayer]

I don't think a decrease in the research cost would be good--that'd just further encourage Marder rushes against British players.

[Tseng_Fox]

Well, can't just nerf it and leave it as it is. It was only useful in pairs anyway.

I think its fair considering how PE havent really been buffed (except for Falls.) and how Armour company has become more viable.

Maybe not the cost of the research then, how about the cost of the unit itself or its armour?

[mitochon2004]

Pre-nerf - The Marder is was the most powerful non doctrine anti-tank platform in the game.

The best mobility, damage output, reload time, sight range and toughness vs infantry (compared to other AT guns)

And hey guess what? ...Post nerf?

The Marder is STILL the most powerful non doctrine anti-tank platform in the game.

In terms of reload, damage output, mobility and toughness vs infantry. As for sight range - that's been bought in line with other AT weapons of it's class.

Yes it has a fuel cost and a tech cost for these advantages (it's called paying for what you get) These may or may not need a bit of tweaking, i'll leave that to people smarter than I.

But seriously i don't know what the big deal is, i mean did you expect your marder to rape all tanks, be your scout and come home in time to bake you an apple pie and tuck all you PE fanboi's into bed too?

You know if a faction has been looked at and nerfed over a long period of time, maybe *SHOCK Horror there is a reason to it.
Maybe it is because it NEEDED tweaking!

Both PE and Brits have been successively regularly in these patches, maybe there's a reason behind it. I think it's called logic.

I don't know why ppl are complaining about PE anti-tank.
No one piece of AT wepon should take out 1v1 a tank. It requires support, tanks are an end game unit whose advantage is mobility (read flanking), with a big gun.

Support the marders and they're fantastic.

Oh and play the beta too. And i'll give you a tip. Try something new - yes PE have been nerfed - you may need to do something different.

What was that quote again?
Definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.

[Tseng_Fox]

No one piece of AT wepon should take out 1v1 a tank.

Firefly invalidates 3/4 of PE units.

Not to mention how fast it is and its range.

But thats for another topic.

[Jaigen]

No one piece of AT wepon should take out 1v1 a tank.

actually it should(at least up to medium tanks). and therefore im not happy with the performance of the 57mm and completely disgruntled with the performance of the pak

[natrapsmai]

Apok: what's your problem with people talking about the ATHT and the Firefly? The Marder's site gun nerf has a direct effect on how these two units are used and they are very, very relevant in this thread, since we all surely care about balance as a whole in this forum, right?

The Marder is still damn good, and it still can't hit Greyhounds. </3

And the only way for a single ATHT to win against a single Greyhound is to tread break its wheels (as the Greyhound has no treads...) and kite it, hoping you yourself don't get flanked in turn.

I find that when I play as PE it's best to put out two ATHTs to support one another. Those will win in a slugfest... and can take even two Greyhounds using the above tactic, if played right and supported in turn.

[Hirmetrium]

I believe the restoration of the marder's additional SPOTTING range might be in order - this is because without it, brits will rule PE through emplacement spam, which right now is only cost effectively countered properly by deployed marders, and no doctrinal units besides hummel.

This is without a doubt an overnerf to the marder - other units already have a fair fight against it, it is a costly unit to mass produce like some claim, and requires careful micromanagement for full effect from it.

Without site main gun, marders become very difficult to counter tanks directly without a serious, serious risk of heavy damage/loss.

EDIT for clarity. Sorry Croat.

[CroatNotBorat]

Range wasn't changed on the Marder.

[Tseng_Fox]

AT-HT and Marder pair work well together. I usually counter the M8 fairly easily with these. 2 AT-HT's are unneeded, but if he's going M8 spam, then more than one is needed.

Only thing is because of the metagame, I need to get a good bunch of MP44's along with them because of Airborne with RR's that will rip the Marder a new one if it gets caught by suprise.

[natrapsmai]

I rarely have a game last long enough that warrants building of both T3 and T4 PE buildings.. but I'm sure treadbreaking and Mardering is a valid tactic.

Trouble with the Marder range nerf is that the PE doesn't have a spotter unit. Cloaked kets? No ty. I like Scortched Earth.

[Tseng_Fox]

That is a problem. If I float MP and if I know he's got greyhounds/tanks, I'll buy another ket and use it even though it will most likely die no matter how good my micro is.

I've heard the Vampire has good detection, but I'm not building a whole useless building just to spot, which will throw me behind my opponent in strength.

I guess shrecks make a decent (but much weaker) substitute in terms of support for the Marder.

[zzSleeper]

I rarely have a game last long enough that warrants building of both T3 and T4 PE buildings.. but I'm sure treadbreaking and Mardering is a valid tactic.

Trouble with the Marder range nerf is that the PE doesn't have a spotter unit. Cloaked kets? No ty. I like Scortched Earth.

PE doesn't have a spotter unit? What do you call the ketten with its 55 sight radius, you know, the same exact sight radius as the jeep/bike.

No one in their right mind builds a sniper just for sighting.

[Harry]

No ty. I like Scortched Earth. that personal preference dude, some people live and die by tank hunters - and some like falls alot so they go luft. You can charge mp44s to spot armour and the like the same way a 4 rifle start throws a rifle or engie into an mg42 to draw its fire.

[PeterPeterson1]

Kettenkrad is no spotter! Besides you go luftwaffe you can't use it that way. Snipers are spotter. Reconteams are spotters, because of their huge sightrange. Krad can't be used this way!

[scoiatollo]

Krad: sight range 55, detection range 20
Recon squad: sight range 50, detection range 12

You should check the numbers first...

[Tigmyth]

Krad: sight range 55, detection range 20
Recon squad: sight range 50, detection range 12

You should check the numbers first...

I think you misunderstand his point. An uncloaked Ketten with no armament has no means to defend itself and will die instantly if the PE player tries to use it as a spotter unit. To realistically use the Ketten as a spotter means the PE player needs to choose Luft. Doctrine for the cloaked Ketten.

[scoiatollo]

And recons are cloaked now? Or Jeeps/bikes? Kettens are cheap, fast and have iirc the highest detection range so how exactly aren't they spotters?!

Snipers can be used as spotters but it's rather risky having such an expensive unit in front of your army instead of having him safely behind you front line and sniping the enemy.

[Unicous]

hmm, i wonder why they get the highest detection range then? they must be real bad detectors. if you drive you ketten in the middle of a road it deserves to die and you deserve to lose it.
vehicle cover is also prvoided for kettens. jeeps and bikes may have means to defend themselves but will fall to small arms fire just as well as to paks and at guns so stop complaining about them not being able to defend themselves.

btw detection range got buffed to 30 in the beta, which i find ridiculous considering that a recon squad has a detection range of 12, jeep and bike 18.

[Tigmyth]

hmm, i wonder why they get the highest detection range then? they must be real bad detectors. if you drive you ketten in the middle of a road it deserves to die and you deserve to lose it.
vehicle cover is also prvoided for kettens. jeeps and bikes may have means to defend themselves but will fall to small arms fire just as well as to paks and at guns so stop complaining about them not being able to defend themselves.

Fella, I wasn't complaining - just noticed that two people were talking at cross purposes. No need for such a terse response.

Let's face it it doesn't really matter what range the Ketten spots at, if the PE player doesn't go Luft he will lose his ketten to the jeep much earlier than the arrival of the Marder (pathing exploit ftw).

[Melonplant]

Uh, kettens are significantly cheaper than jeeps and bikes.

You could also just run your army in to spot for your marders. I'm not sure in what wacky scenario this wouldn't work. Maybe if theres a hulldowned cromwell and 3 vickers nests covering it, your army might make a poor choice for a spotter unit.

Oh hey, use a ketten then. It can see much further than the cromwell, vickers, 17 pounder, hell anything that can shoot at it.

Furthermore, the range of the marder is, what, 60? Put your kettenkrad 5 feet in front of it. Awesome. Good work. Tactics will reward you!

And even better! The current site range of the marder is 35! It used to be with siting the main gun, you'd get 35+20, which equals 55.

So if you're REALLY afraid of losing your expensive kettenkrad, you can sit the kettenkrad right on top of your marder and it's like the old site main gun is back. No need for bullshit microing a kettenkrad to spot. You'll get the same effect with a kettenkrad sitting on your marder.

For added coolness, when the greyhound comes in to circle strafe, you have the perfect answer to him. Reverse the jeep vs ketten scenario on the greyhound! That evil american mighta gotten your ketten early game with the dirty jeep, but now you'll be taking down a much bigger fish for revenge. It's not an exploit, it's tactics!

Unless a jeep trys to run in and exploit your ketten to death during. Marder vs jeep, who wins that one?

[hashinshin]

How about 1 vickers with a bofors.

Is that too unreal a situation for you ?

[scoiatollo]

Than you can snipe them with your MarderIII + Krad...

No matter how you put it the Krad is an excellent spotter but the thread isn't about Krad, spotters or bizzare, constructed situations, it's about the changes the Marder had gone through the Playtest so how about you folks focus on that before this thread gets locked?

[Melonplant]

We

I didn't realize you were a panzer grenadier hashinshin. Congratulations!

I just finished a round against a PE player on the beta. He still sited his marders when engaging my greyhounds.

It was rather depressing when I lost them all, but it was my fault for not focus firing his marders one at a time.

ya know, I don't think I noticed if the damage was reduced. It was nice to not be shot at from the fog of war, but it was semois and I had a pretty good idea of where his marders are, so I doubt he could have ambushed me anyways, sight bonus or not.

Funny thing was, when I moved my AT gun up they bumped in to a cloaked ketten. I thought I was going to get the drop on him :(.

[Tseng_Fox]

As I see it, to get the full use out of the Marder, its best to go Luftwaffe for cloaked Kettenkrads. If you go another doctrine, you have to sacrifice a Kettenkrad to spot.

[Melonplant]

@ hash - I'm confused. Who are you yelling at? I mentioned only a cloaked ketten, and it was spying on me, not spotting.

I think you misinterpretted what I was saying. I was quoting your "we" because I thought it was funny that you personalize the race you play as so much, not because I expect you to use all those units in the same round.

But your reaction is priceless, in any case.

I personally always go luft now just for the cloaked ketten. It's great for doing all sorts of neat things. It can spot for AT HTs pounding on a m8, find snipers super easy, sneak around back capping, and now spotting for the marder (although any ketten can do that)

Anything that promotes combined arms is a good thing.

[Tseng_Fox]

Anything that promotes combined arms is a good thing.

Agreed. Wish that Scorched Earth/Tank Destroyers got slightly more surviveable kettenkrads since they don't have cloak. Looks like Luftwaffe is gonna be the most used doctrine next patch.

This would promote combined arms more I think and would allow the Marder to still perform just as well.

[Cyberbob]

Don't forget there's nothing preventing you from using regular troops as spotters. Send them into battle and park your Marder at a nice comfortable distance behind them.

You know, like you would with any other AT gun.

[Tseng_Fox]

I know. I usually do that for the Marder anyway unless its a Cromwell/Churchill which kill infantry really fast.

[Deionarra]

Less of the histrionics please.

This thread has nothing to do with Hummels, AT halftracks or some sort of a conspiracy against the Panzer Elite.

[Harry]

just put a ket next to a marder like melon said. numbers proved itd give it good sight range.

[Tseng_Fox]

Numbers prove it, but we'll have to see how it plays out. It needs testing.

[Hirmetrium]

that personal preference dude, some people live and die by tank hunters - and some like falls alot so they go luft. You can charge mp44s to spot armour and the like the same way a 4 rifle start throws a rifle or engie into an mg42 to draw its fire. His point was that he shouldn't be forced to go luft for spotter kettens.

*humor injection*

This thread has nothing to do with Hummels, AT halftracks or some sort of a conspiracy against the Panzer Elite. ITS TOTALLY A CONSPIRCY AGAINST THE PANZER ELITE, OMFG WHO ARE YOU TO SAY WHATS RIGHT, YOU ARE A MODERATORZ. LEAVE PE ALONE OMFG.
/end humor injection

Seriously though, the double marder nerf isn't needed - removing the massive antiamerican tank damage bonus was enough, but tbh site main gun no longer has enough bonuses to be worth using, what with all the artillery, equally powerful tanks at the same sight range, lack of moblity making flanking easy....

[natrapsmai]

Yeah sure you guys can use the Ket all you want to spot but what's going to die first in even the smallest of fights with rifles? Your beloved Ket. This shouldn't be news or anything, but I think everyone saying that you can get around the sight range nerf by just having a ket should think a little more causally.

The nerf isn't that big of a deal really, you can say that the Marder is just like the other AT guns and thus shouldn't have a sight as far as its firing range. Personally I disagree with that logic - considering the Marder is a huge hulk of a vehicle and not just a gun on wheels, it should be able to see a tidbit further. But something needed a nerf, so again, this works.

Also relying on a doctrine ability/unit for anything is just the wrong answer.

[Catastrofizum]

Has anyone actually used the Marder in the playtest beta? I just tried it in a skirmish, because the posted changes looked so disturbing - only the one about sight radius. It's as bad as it sounds....going lock down moves the fow back just a fraction of what it used to. This really bothers me for 3 reasons.

1) There was no problem with the Marder as far as I knew(in regards to sight, I accept there was damage issues that needed addressing). It seems it's been randomly selected for a thorough nerfing. The sight change when you go lock down is totally pitiful now, I doubt it will be worth the risk to do that.

2) The sight it could gain was perfectly balanced to allow PE to use this to attack all British emplacements but the 17pdr effectively. So now an infantry squad(assuming not Luftwaffe) will have to stand in range of the emplacement to spot for the Marder? Well that's going to be a lot of fun if it's a British Engineering command Boffers 40mm!


Also relying on a doctrine ability/unit for anything is just the wrong answer.

3) This is the last problem. Once again Luftwaffe, as it does with handling the imba US sniper (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=194236) , has a significant doctrinal advantage. Prepare to see a hell of a lot of Luftwaffe after this patch the way things are going with PE....

:donny:

[Pershing720]

The marder gets some nice bonuses like a penetration and reload bonus when locked down. The American sniper has many counters and is easy to kill.

[hashinshin]

The MarderIII no longer gets a penetration bonus, what is this blasphemy you are talking about ?

Next year in nerfing PGs !

[Pershing720]

When did they remove the penetration bonus?

- Panzer Elite Marder III Site Main Gun weapon damage modifier removed. Was 1.35.
- Panzer Elite Marder III Site Main Gun sight bonus reduced from 20m to 5m.

[hashinshin]

damage bonus is 1.1, penetration is 1.35, you do the typo.

[Harry]

His point was that he shouldn't be forced to go luft for spotter kettens.
ill state it again, you dont have to go luft, use a ket or use men to spot. No more auto destruction of emplacements, or armour by just pressing down a button and waiting for thier troops to charge into your mp44's+AC line. now marders can be flanked because you wont see the m10 coming around the building a mile away!



handling the imba US sniper lol, just lol. British face this problem when they play against wher. But youll just counter it with something arbitrary and wont take it for what its worth.

[hashinshin]

I had a whole paragraph typed on why snipers are 4x harsher on PE than britain but then I realized what does this have to do with the conversation...

How about every doctrine gets stealth ketten and lufftwaffe gets something different ? At least then every doctrine would have a real counter to snipers and spotting for MarderIII, and not even a hard counter.

[ShadowRift]

Does anyone know the attack range of the 17pdr vs the Marder?

all i see on coh stats are sight

[Harry]

I had a whole paragraph typed on why snipers are 4x harsher on PE than britain but then I realized what does this have to do with the conversation... probaly from a 2 v 2 vire river matchup perspective. Snipers are relevant to the discussion becuase one of the arguments was that "pe have no spotter units" and that wher and americans have sniper to spot and british have the recon squad. I disagree with the statement and say that jeeps and bikes are the true spotter units, and pe have the ket as a spotter.


No more auto destruction of emplacements, or armour by just pressing down a button and waiting for thier troops to charge into your mp44's+AC line my number one reason for not liking the marder pre beta patch. marder sets up, hurts sherman, sherman pulls back infy move foward- run into AC+mp44 line. PE win. No ket required, and the enourmous sight of the marder becomes a eye of sauron.

[hashinshin]

Now it'll go like this:

"marder sets up, hurts sherman, sherman pulls back infy move foward- run into AC+mp44 line. PE win. No ket required, and the enourmous sight of the marder becomes a eye of sauron."

with a cloaked ketten spotting.

Difference ? Now a doctrine ability thats not even a damn tiered ability is deciding balance for PE.

[karvajalka]

Uh... ketten? If i was PE, i would use that AC+mp44s to spot.

[hashinshin]

Do people just always forget that theres commonly a vickers or bofors you're trying to snipe ?

The whole POINT of bringing a MarderIII against british emplacements ?

[Tseng_Fox]

Depends on how far in the battle is. If he's airborne and its late game, then AC really shouldn't be used for spotting as he'll have Recoiless Rifles out which kill all light veichles very easily.

Better to stick with MP44 grenadiers so it seems. More surviveable than a kettenkrad, but not too costly.

To be honest, Marder was really only useful against British anyway. AT-HT and shrecks dealt with american armour as it is.

[Widowmaker1]

Now it'll go like this:

"marder sets up, hurts sherman, sherman pulls back infy move foward- run into AC+mp44 line. PE win. No ket required, and the enourmous sight of the marder becomes a eye of sauron."

with a cloaked ketten spotting.

Difference ? Now a doctrine ability thats not even a damn tiered ability is deciding balance for PE.

How about both infantry and tank go in?
Or sniper spots and 57mm takes care of the Marder Infantry and tank move in,
Or arty the position when the sniper spots.....a hundred combos to deal with it come on now...,

[Hirmetrium]

ill state it again, you dont have to go luft, use a ket or use men to spot. No more auto destruction of emplacements, or armour by just pressing down a button and waiting for thier troops to charge into your mp44's+AC line. now marders can be flanked because you wont see the m10 coming around the building a mile away! And i'll state it again, there is no cost effective non-doctrine emplacement counter for PE, the marder was and is the only unit in the PE arsenal capable of countering them. PE have NO non doctrine artillery, while every US doctrine has some type of artillery PE do not. They are the weakest faction in terms of arty and distance/offmap weapons. If you are tank hunters, which you need for the hezter to stand any chance against any sort of armour due to the marders indirect combat weakness, you have no artillery. Luft are sort of better off with mines and Panzerknacker, as well as flaks while scorched is probably the best due to the hummel..which recieved a minor nerf.

I agree that if this beta patch in its entirity goes live then luft will become incredably popular tree. Its already very good, this patch just makes it better combined with hummel and tank hunter nerfs.

EDIT:
marder sets up, hurts sherman, sherman pulls back infy move foward- run into AC+mp44 line If you target an AC with a sherman it will kill it most likely. Already one AC is down, MP44's are only effective when charging and rifles can just gun them down and/or suppress them while others throw stickies/focus marder. The marder, because its fixed will die, PG will retreat and whatever AC's are left are at the mercy of a brutal american army.

With the penetration nerf but keeping sight the marder can still fight at longer range and hit the sherman a few times before rape comes in.

And lets be fair, any well setup defense is pretty brutal, PE or not.

[Harry]

And i'll state it again, there is no cost effective non-doctrine emplacement counter for PE, the marder was and is the only unit in the PE arsenal capable of countering them. there is, its called a ket and a marder.

im gonna get replays of this combo in action- guess you just wanna press a button and have the marder auto kill emplacements.

[hashinshin]

I thought everyone knew the rules of the forums.

If you theory craft any situation, PE wins it.

[Harry]

Furthermore, the range of the marder is, what, 60? Put your kettenkrad 5 feet in front of it. Awesome. Good work. Tactics will reward you!

And even better! The current site range of the marder is 35! It used to be with siting the main gun, you'd get 35+20, which equals 55.

So if you're REALLY afraid of losing your expensive kettenkrad, you can sit the kettenkrad right on top of your marder and it's like the old site main gun is back. No need for bullshit microing a kettenkrad to spot. You'll get the same effect with a kettenkrad sitting on your marder.
gg theorycrafting.

[vfdarkcipher]

there is no effective non-doctrine emplacement counter

u need to lock down the marder to out range the emplacements meaning u need a:

ketten to spot,
a marder3,
and infantry support.

with americans OR brits all u need it.

105
or 25 pounder
or mortar pit
or mortar.

or AT guns to snipe + infantry support.

[natrapsmai]

Or Flamers, Rangers, Airborne, Commies, or Churchill. ;)

[karvajalka]

Strange... brit has 25 pounder, churchill, sappers, infantry sections, bofors, mortar pit, tactical nuclear warhead, and all you have is marder and kettenkrad. Very stange.

[Tseng_Fox]

I think his point was that most other options for PE are quite fragile against what they are supposed to counter. Grens will get torn up by Bofors for example as they get close to spot. HT's will get killed by 17 pounders. Both of which is fine because thats supposed to happen, but it leaves little to spot apart from the kettenkrad.

[Cyberbob]

If the British player has both a 17 pounder and a Bofors within range of each other, you need to be trying something else. A mortar HT with incendiary round to burn the crew of the Bofors out, perhaps?

It's a moot point, anyway - you seem to have handily ignored Harry's last post.

[hashinshin]

Uhm.

Yeah.

So you're saying the MarderIII is a good weapon now even though it's sight has been nerfed because you can use a mortar HT to do it's job instead.

Kinda proves our point...

You already need to stay out of range of the 17 pounder, or do a combined MarderIII shrek rush on it (probably sustaining heavy casualties.)

So now in order to kill the bofors or vickers you have to do the same thing, even if you can stay out of range of the 17 pounder !

[Cyberbob]

Being forced to use combined arms does not invalidate the Marder in any way, shape or form. It just means you need to rethink your strategies.

Again, please read Harry's last post.

[hashinshin]

Combined arms is the warcry of the allied troops whenever they want to validate something.

COMBINED ARMS is not a single mortar HT replacing a MarderIII+PG team.

If using combined arms is weaker than selecting a mortar HT and pressing B then clicking on an emplacement... something is wrong.

Doctrine abilities for the ketten deciding what you can and can't do with the MarderIII is wrong.

[Kratos]

I say it again, the marder was overnerfed! Eighter its damage or spotting range! I say decrease the damage and give it it`s spotting range again.

[Tseng_Fox]

Again, please read Harry's last post.

I read it. He copy-pasted someone elses responce.

Well, since imbalanced brits have been toned down (though not all that much) its not quite a problem as it was before. Still won't beat a firefly, even with spotter, but PE players will have to make do with what we have.

I would have prefered the damage to be lowered instead of the sight range personally. It would have the same effect still and not mess up alot of strategies.

[hashinshin]

The problem is the MarderIII still has the problem of having next to no ability to shoot while turning or while moving. Its basically a remodeled StuG with very long range.

But now it's damage is significantly reduced. Its seeing range is reduced. And you have to be luftwaffe to get the most use out of it.

:-/ is all I can say.

Its now basically a shorter ranged AT gun with no cloak or AP rounds to supplement it. also, it costs fuel.

[Wischmopp]

I cannot believe the amount of hysteric bs written in here.

Marder III sight bonus WAS totally OP and not fitting to the type of unit. There is just no real justification for a mobile AT-gun to double function as a recon unit.

It still has its godlike 60 range and does 1.1 damage when sited. (2.404 changelog makes it clear that the penetration was removed, not the extra damage)

Its one of the best units you can expect to get for such a low pricetag.

Personally i would encourage to give the (now pretty useless) scout car a better sighting range as compensation and to make it live up to its name.... but this might cause trouble in early game situations. Nevertheless its now time to give logistic company some change/love/whatever.