Ork looting

[Mokino]

Since as mentioned in one of the other threads, it's very Orky for Orks to loot other vehicles this should be reflected in the game.

Perhaps Mekboyz can "capture" the husks of destroyed vehicles and make them Orky?

[Sword_Monkey]

This could work in the same way Tomb Spyders build units in DoW1. They pick up vehicle parts until they have enough to construct a ramshackle version. In fact Looters could be a unit, who pick up any weapon as well as vehicle parts.

[Mokino]

Damn, I really like that idea S_M. It also would make the Orks fairly unique in that they could produce vehicles on the field.

[Sturmtruppen]

dont see why not, would make it more interesting

[Gabriel42]

A really good idea! Part drops could be handled in much the same way as loot drops, and orky vehicles could be really customisable.

This could really work!

[Pseudonymn]

Hell, you have to wonder where all the crap that the Warbosses and MANZ have pinned to their bodies came from. :D

[Deacon412]

looting would be awesome but i wounder how it would be implemented

[mikami170]

remind me of the gla in c&c generals picking up crates from dead units and upgrading their own weapons

[TheLoneKnight]

I always envisioned Ork looting as functioning like that repair vehicle the Panzer Elite use in Opposing Fronts. A bunch of lootas run around and, when they spot a vehicle husk, they pay a certain % of that vehicle's cost (over a short time) to rebuild it into a slightly weakened, more orky version.

For non-lootable races, they might simply take bits and pieces to improve the Lootaz' guns or give resources back to the mobz. Maybe they'd even count as free Deffgunz for whatever lootas found the husk.

[YellowFrog]

they did that with lemun russ but i am hoping they will loot more

[Blackheart]

CoH already has vehicle resurrection, so this wouldn't be too far of a stretch.

How it works in Company of Heroes (which is the predecessor to DoW2, as far as game engines go):

The Panzer-Elite faction builds a specific unit, the Bergetiger. Bergetiger is ordered to a corpse of a friendly unit and starts repairing it. While repairing, it's extremely vulnerable to damage (although bullets still can't penetrate its armor, cannon shells and rockets will do hella damage to it). When done, the unit is revived completely.

Another thing is: Wehrmacht orders its Pioneers (builder unit) to a vehicle corpse, and they start to salvage parts off of it, giving munitions resource. Munitions is used for weapons upgrades and abilities.



The way Lootaz would do it would be as follows:

If they are ordered to loot a light vehicle, they end up with a Wartrukk (which can be upgraded into a wartrakk). One wepon choice, two with Wartrakk upgrade but it loses transport ability.

If they are ordered to loot a heavy vehicle, they end up with a battlewagon (A customizable medium/heavy tank, depending on what weapons are put on it). Four weapons choices, one heavy weapon choice.

If they are ordered to loo the corpse of a superheavy tank, they end up with a battlefortress, their own superheavy vehicle. Six weapon choices, two heavy weapons choices, and killkannon upgrade.

All of these would have customizable weapons, a choice between rokkit launchaz and big shootaz. Wagonz and Fortresses would choose between a Kannon, Lobba, and Zzap Gun, and the Battlefortress would have a KillKannon upgrade which is very much like a shorter ranged version of the main cannon of the baneblade.

Orks can requisition vehicles normally, but not as many as other races or not as often to balance this out. Or maybe they'd only be able to build gunwagons and batteries (kannons, lobbas and zzapguns) aut everything else must be looted. Gunwagons are basicly mounted kannons, lobbas, and zzapgunz.

[the_almighty_moo]

who said orks can only loot imperial vehicles? ;) im only saying this as i made a looted wagon out of a Dark Eldar Raider.

but maybe loot for orks will be in the form of vehicle components as well as squad upgrades?

[Blackheart]

Orks can loot anything. (http://www.garbo.org/40k/Konviktz/battlefortress.htm)

[Pseudonymn]

Uhm.... no. All Necron corpses and technologies phase out once they are whittled down to 25% of their starting forces (Pariah squads not included in the calculation). Da Daka-lith is a hilarious and innovative idea, but it is hopelessly flawed from a fluff point of view.

[Blackheart]

Read the explanation given for it in the link I gave.

essentially, the Dakka-Lith was disabled and the beacon used to teleport it back removed before it could teleport back.

[Sword_Monkey]

I believe there is an old thread in Backstory and Fluff that goes in to detail over the immensely rare cases of Orks capturing Necron technology. It basically concludes that if it's possible, which it would be, then the ones to manage it would be the Orks. It should be noted that it's an immensely slim chance, but the Galaxy is an immensely large place.

I don't like the idea of the Lootaz making Ork vehicles out of enemy vehicles, sure it could be done, and perhaps should be an option, but I want to see looted tanks, not conversions of looted parts into Orky designs.

Furthermore the looting of regular weaponry on the battlefield would be awesome. A simple button like the Kroot cannibalise one would suffice. Of course you'd have no choice in which weapons would be looted but needless to say their would be a hierarchy of loudness built into the Lootaz choices.

[ImmortalChaos]

Orks can loot anything. (http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost.php?p=2334879&postcount=69)

[Pseudonymn]

^ That's just... LoL... LOL!! :D

So what, the Ork player can purchase bits from across any army, glue them together, slap on a layer of paint, invent their own non-canon (and often rather lame) back story, and have themselves an ubered up, battle-ready weapon of mega-death at their whim and choosing?

No, I don't think so. Not one bit. Looting is fun (and often hilarious), but there are limits to what the Orks are allowed to loot. In a tournament, players are limited to their choice of lootable vehicles listed in the Ork codex. If someone wants to have a friendly game and toss out the rules on the side and substitute their own, well power to them. But in any other situation, something like a looted 'Lith is out of the question nor I wouldn't expect to see anything to that extreme in DoW either.

[ImmortalChaos]

Honestly I'd just assume that if looted vehicles were implemented, there would only actually be 1 or 2 statlines for the looted vehicle.

The actual vehicle used to make the thing would be a purely cosmetic thing.

[Sword_Monkey]

Well tabletop imposes stat limits, and it's dangerous to even fire a shot with a looted vehicle, they like to blow up. And practically a Monolith would never be fully functioning if captured, especially the source of power, and Ork couldn't handle that if he was their version of Einstein. The Dakkalith is a Battlewagon I think (?) it's not functioning like a Monolith regardless.

In game I'd think that looted vehicles could perhaps be faster, but weaker in the firepower and health departments. Additionally they'd have a tendency to break down, but totherwise they'd be what they were mainly looted from.

[zakublazer]

Why don't ork's vehicles just get a loot ability like the canabalize thing kroots already have? it would be easiest to implement and could be animated to be suitably orky, with persistant character you might see an ork vehicle visibally growing with junks over the campaign! This should lead to some better weapons, looted heavy bolter for example on an wartrukk and more health, got all those junk outside for armour.
Maybe an animation where the drivers get out and loot over wreckages, but during this mode the vehicle can't move or attack and becomes extra vulnerable(take more dmg etc)

[Sturmtruppen]

this is already possible in the essence engine, infact it "spawns" a new unit so the orky one can have whatever stats and skins or even model relic wants to give them...

[omgitsduane]

I think something that would totally work and be very fluffy and realistic is a "looted" resource for the orks, this gives them like 4 resources to worry about, but helps them quite a bit, so tanks cost req/pow/and now looted meaning that the more stuff looted off the battlefield the stronger a tank made will be, or even the types of weapons it has.

Maybe as a tank is being made, if you have looted off a basalisk, turn it into one?

there is seriously endless opportunities for this, I think simply a looted resource and in the mek shop a small list of guns that can be used (not everygun as there wouldn't be room for it) but the main ones would be big cannons, heavy bolters and rockets, as blackheart suggested, when the tank comes out, you are aware of what weapons it has, and give it that accordingly.

Another great feature I think could be done is to personalise your tanks with "ard case" or "red paint jobs" and the advantage of this over a uniform upgrade is that you can only pay to have it on tanks that need to be fast, or tanks that need to be ard.

[Xanthian]

Gubbins as a resource would indeed be very orky. And certainly offset the problems with Waagh as a resource that can never be fixed. It also has precedent as it would play a lot like DE, except reward orks for bringing down vehicles instead of infantry.

The problem is that we already have, assuming the current design is superimposed over DoW 2, gibs, permanent warrior corpses, snare traps and souls littering the field. Where does it all end?

Of course, taking GLA as an example, only ork killing blows could render an army able to generate usable scrap, and the usable scrap would be truly useless the second time it was destroyed, as one potential resolution to the above.

I think we pretty much have some sort of guarantee of infantry looting other infantry's heavy weapons, however, assuming they're not destroyed. After all, this system already exists in CoH, where you can pinch a mortar after you kill the guys manning it. Now, the problem lies in identifying who can use what; Surely a guardsman can't lift a heavy bolter, and eldar/DE/Tau would indeed be above using such crude technology. Nobody but orks should be able to use orkish weaponry, unless by some miracle it's survived undamaged in a greenskin's hands, and hasn't been damaged when prying it out of them.

Of course, then there's the aspect of it being a complete nightmare to balance in multiplayer. SM + orks vs anyone = free cheap sluggas manning heavy bolters for all perpetuity.

All this seems to point to looting being an inefficient, but quick, way of responding to a changing encounter. You need anti-vehicle? Build tankbustaz; looting lascannons isn't going to beat it in efficiency. All your tankbustaz were wiped out and you need instant replacement AV? Pick up that lascannon, because more tankbustas would arrive too late to make a difference. That seems to be the kind of looting I think would actually give the most depth to the game and not be a depth decision with tremendous balance implications.

Alternatively, perhaps looting could happen on a per-weapon-type basis. Rangers and scout snipers could loot eachothers weapons, all rocket-using infantry could use all other rocket infantry's weapons interchangeably (sm rockets and ork rokkits, for example), etc. Essentially, a dropped heavy weapon of a certain prototype (bolter, flamer, rocket, plasma, lascannon, sniper rifle, whatever) would be picked up by a unit and automatically change the prototype to that of the second army. Of course, then your statlines for every unit and the corresponding heavy weapons it can use become a somewhat astronomical matrix to manage.

[omgitsduane]

I didn't really think of it for use on infantry, as it does have a lot of balance problems as you mentioned, I think lootas should be stuck to salvaging and using the guns they own in the TT, its a set design now that randomly fires either 1,2 or 3 shots a turn depending on the dice.

Maybe even a squad of mek boyz? Or burnaboyz with meks in the squad, I've always felt the KMB was such a nice ork weapon but only the big mek alone gets one.

[Xanthian]

Old lootas could actually use anything from the imperial armies, but at full cost and with a bs of 2, if memory serves.

Needless to say, ork snipers have been used to great effect, at the scorn of every true ork player.

New lootas have, as you say, just got the randomish but uber deffguns. (Part of the problem is that they cost less than flash gits and do more on average -- which is again, part of the problem with flash gits as much as lootas.) If what you're proposing is that the only way to build lootas as a usable troop is to march regular boys over heavy weapons, instead of pumping them purely out of the barracks, and that justifying their firepower, then I think it's certainly doable and balanced (heavy weapons could then be used to bait, for example; your opponent chooses where they're dropped, not you), essentially just another way of implementing a sort of squad experience for winning battles, but seems to fall under the category of a snowball mechanic. Which would be officially bad, I believe.

[Kien]

I don't think this feature would be worth making 1 more of all vehicle models in the game.

[TheLoneKnight]

Nobody said you had to. Just replicate the existing ones and tack some orky things onto it. Treads onto an Eldar Hovertank or spikes and pointy bits onto a Predator and all that. It might be extra work, but honestly, it would be so worth it.

[Kien]

Well that is making new models. Adding stuff to the original ones.

[omgitsduane]

or maybe the original ork tanks are made, but can be "parked" into the mek shop, and given a custom gun, or some added bonuses in whatever sense seems applicable and balanced. perhaps maybe make the vehicle gubbins have to be carried by grots to the mek shop, in a similar fashion that peons and whatever in warcraft drag gold from the mine to their stronghold.

[TheLoneKnight]

My point was more that tacking generic orky bits onto vehicles doesn't necessarily require as much effort as creating an entirely new model, Kien. Regardless, I'm all for Ork looting no matter what form it might take.

That and Squigs. Dawn of War 2 needs Squigs hard.

[omgitsduane]

Yeah, it doesn't take much work to model a few simple panels and crude gubbins onto an existing model.

[Kien]

Anyway doing this feature feels like quite abig thing, making a new version of all other races vehicles for an orky ability. You feel that the other races should have something propotional or orks feels more detailed than the other's. It would mean that most units would have a chaos version for example or tyranids being able to creature new units by collecting genetic stuff from dead enemy units.

[Blackheart]

Why should other races get something like this? This is a uniquely Orky ability. That's like saying that because Sisters of Battle have faith-based abilities, everyone else should, too. Or beecause the Dark Eldar can suck souls out of things and use it to cast spells, everyone else should be able to, too. Or because space marines can have lascannons, so should everyone else.


Light vehicle - Wartrakk, Medium vehicle- Trukk, Heavy - Looted Russ, SuperHeavy - Battlewagon

Superheavy should definitely be a battlefortress. It is the orks' heaviest vehicle after all.

Which puts battlewagon at heavy (as it should be).

[Kien]

If I play the game and notice "wow what a cool ability this race has" I expect the other ones to have something just as good. Otherwise it feels unpropotional.

[Noble]

There is no reason to think that the other races won't get their fill of unique and awesome special traits and abilities. I think this is a fantastic idea, and would definitely set the Orks apart in a way other than the fact that they field more guys than the other factions.

[Blackheart]

If I play the game and notice "wow what a cool ability this race has" I expect the other ones to have something just as good. Otherwise it feels unpropotional.

So give them other abilities. This is a uniquely orky ability. And really, all they have to do is create four vehicle models, and have the orks convert the corpses of vehicles (which are mangled wrecks to begin with) into one of these four depending on the size of the origonal vehicle. Then the Ork player can kustomize what weapons they want their vehicle to lfield during or after conversion for more orky kustomization.

[Xanthian]

If I play the game and notice "wow what a cool ability this race has" I expect the other ones to have something just as good. Otherwise it feels unpropotional.

I'm sorry then. Necrons in the current implementation make the whole game unproportional, don't they?

They have, after all, the only non-map-dependent economy, the best hero bar none, only one resource to manage, and they can possess every other vehicle on the field, along with making a fake copy of any of their own (including the possessed ones).

Judging by unit diversity and tactical options, why is one argument valid and the other not?

And, more importantly, who the hell cares? Diversity is just as entertaining for the guy fighting you as it is for you.

[omgitsduane]

I don't really see it as a "special ability" like the DE or SOB ones, more of an authentic way to go about making the ork vehicles, I don't suggest there be the ability for orks to loot EVERY tank on the battlefield, I orignally suggested that scrap from tanks be used to add variety to an ork mech list, or to pay for some of the better upgrades like boomguns, etc.

Or maybe they need a certain amount of scrap to make their relic unit? I dunno, there could be a million ways to do it, but I don't want it seen as an advantage, just a different way of doing things.

Well on top of the bonus abilities of the de and sob, what if orks got a real WAAAGH where for like 5-10 seconds they went 50% faster to gather ground on their enemies, but don't shoot during that stage?

Making the abilities of the table top that make each race so unique are what I fell is missing from DOW.

[Blackheart]

I'd rather it just be the ability to convert corpses of vehicles into new ones given enough time and resources. Turning a leman russ corpse into a battlewagon, for example. No need to make a thousand orky models...

[Lord Abaddon]

And could the Orky Boyz loot actual units? Like take weapons and armor and stuff?

[Blackheart]

Given the wargear options, I immagine they could make certain wargears spawn only off certain factions.

[Elerium]

Just adding onto the whole Necron thing earlier, in the earliest incarnations of the Necrons in White Dwarf, the Imperium had access to anti-phase out devices, and the scenario was to capture some of these Necrons by disabling them and putting these devices on them (who were a lot more tougher than the ones now). If the Imperium has stuff like this you can bet the Orks have it too..

As for Ork lootin', it would be very nice to see what comes up in DoW2.. maybe they can have alternate models or alternate results so if you salvage a Leman Russ turret and a Land Raider chassis, the Big Mek sticks the Russ turret on the LR chassis and paints it Orky. This reminds me of Metal Fatigue where combots which had no arms could tractor beam up enemy hands which was chopped off in battle and use them. This way it can offer unique, humourous and different outcomes but it might be a bit hard to balance.. saying that you could always do it the GLA way and have them scavenge stuff to make a default MK2 scrap unit with better weapons and armour.

[Lord Abaddon]

So, I did a bit of thinking (MAN it felt weird!), and I came up with an idea or two for the looting thing (with infantry)

Instead or with the regular heavy weapons they'd have an ability similar to cannibalise (or whichever) from the Kroot, and they'd choose the best fitting weapon judging by the enemy you've seen (for instance if you're only encountering inf., they'd pick up a heavy bolter, muahahaha!!), and choose the armor against which they encountered least weapons (muahahaha again!).

[Terrordar]

Looting happens in CoH, I don't see why it couldn't happen in DoW2.

What would be cool is if orks got a unit like a B Tiger, and just went over to hulks, able to pay a fee to resurrect them as a crappy Ork piece of crap. :P

[omgitsduane]

I don't know if I'm just saying the wrong stuff or everyone is misunderstanding me.

I don't want to see looted raiders, looted baneblades, looted anything, I just feel it would make an interesting research, as someone mentioned in COH salvaging old tanks gives you back ammunition resources, so this should give you back "lootin'" resource, which can be spent on personalised upgrades for tanks, not just make brand new ones from scrap!

IE, fighting against IG, he sends a chimera, its worth what? 70/70? so say thats 40 scrap form it? or some other way of figuring out what each tank is worth, the tank has been destroyed, lying on the floor then either the bigmek, or a squad of lootas/gretchin, or a mekboy squad come over and start salvaging the parts and taking them back to the mek shop for kustomizin'.

Now with this 40 looted resource they can buy a regular wartrakk, but add onto it either red paint job, or perhaps just added armour.

Another thought I had was what if each race can be looted for their guns and purchased by a vehicle as upgrades, similar to the way a kan can take rokkits or not, with the same chimera scenario, use 10 of the 40 resources to give the wartrakk a "lasgun dakka" which is basically 3 or so laguns stuck together and this results in a sort of minigun effect from the wartrakk, but delivers a slight increase in damage, or depending on the balance of things and availability of the looted resources, will in effect be taken into account.

Now if this happens with a raider, he gets disintegrators, but the DAMAGES of any looted weapons are not representative of their normal values because...
A) orks can't shoot that well.
b) orks can't use everyones weapons perfectly with those massive hands.
c) balance and cry-babying.


So now that I've (hopefully) made some more sense, what does everyone think?

[s33k]

^ I like the idea of certain vehicles being worth an amount of scrap. Although the only problem I see with this is, that is one more resource the orks have to watch. Not a huge deal, but you know.

[Blackheart]

Making them require scrap for upgrades or vehicles seems very, VERY limiting. Rather than an ability, it's a hindrance.

Allowing them to reduce the cost of vehicles by looting the corpse of a destroyed one and turning it into the appropriate vehicle depending on the size category of the corpse, now THAT is an ability.