Serious panzer elite patch concerns...

[hashinshin]

- Panzer Elite Hummel artillery barrage ability increased from 60 seconds to 90 seconds.
- Panzer Elite Infantry Halftrack MG42 is less effective vs units in light cover. Damage is reduced from 1.0 to .75
- Panzer Elite Vehicles shared veterancy radius reduced from 35m to 25m.
- Panzer Elite vehicles veterancy multiplier reduced from 1 to .9.
- Panzer Elite Infantry veterancy sharing reduced from .5 to .45.
- Panzer Elite Jagdpanther health reduced from 1800 to 1600.
- US 57mm AT gun penetration modifier vs Jagdpanthers increased from appox .08 to .18.
- Panzer Elite Marder III Site Main Gun weapon damage modifier removed. Was 1.35.
- Panzer Elite Marder III Site Main Gun sight bonus reduced from 20m to 5m.
- Bergetiger recovery MP cost increased from 5mp per minute to 10mp per minute.
- Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite vehicles recovered by the Bergetiger return with less health.
- Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite heavy vehicles (tanks etc.) recovered by the Bergetiger are more likely to return with either an engine or main gun critical.
- Panzer Elite Armoured Car 20mm cannon modified vs Allied Riflemen. Accuracy set from 1.0 to .75. Building cover accuracy set from .5 to .4. Incremental target radius set from 10 to 8.
- Increased fuel drain (approx 1.5 to approx. 3 per minute) of Commonwealth Flank Speed and added same fuel cost to Panzer Elite 222 Overdrive.
- Panzerschreck accuracy vs AT guns reduced.

Isn't this all a little much ?

Couldn't we take half of these away and see how it works out ? Nearly every usable panzer elite unit got nerfed. On the other side, america saw a buff to half of their usable units. This is swaying the balance wayyyyy over to the american side if ALL of these already go through. PE already has troubles with early riflespam and the infantry HT or AC dealt with these.

This is on top of all of these seeing no issues resolved. All but 2 choices in the scorched earth tree are useless. Only 4 man squads are useful out of logistics. Cromwells flank speed and eat MarderIIIs for breakfast (even 2v2.) The ATHT can barely beat the greyhound and has no chance at all against the stuart. Early PE infantry get eaten alive by riflespam until they get group zeal some vet and MP44s. G43s see no scaling to late game (quickly replaced by MP44s since they can beat riflespam.) Snipers obliterate PE hardcore.

Yes, henschel got fixed but YOU broke it. Its still 200 munitions of generally failing. Shrek squads are almost worthless for non tank hunters since the Kar98ks on them are only as good as grenadiers (who later get elite armor and aren't 45 reinforce or 3 man squads.) Sector artillery is 200 munitions of trying to gib 1 squad. Wirbelwind is still 480 freaking manpower. Scorched earth is still worthless. RRs make all PE vehicles worthless. One button up and any PE vehicle is quickly obliterated by small arms.

[Panzer Jager]

PE already has troubles with early riflespam and the infantry HT or AC dealt with these.

And how does Wehr not have a problem with Riflespam in comparison to PE?




PE isn't entirely hopeless.
I've played US and lost during the beta, and I've played PE and won during the beta.

[hashinshin]

Wehr doesn't roll out slow capping 3 man squads that need munitions to be worthwhile at all. They've got medic bunkers, quick vet 2, less reinforce cost, typically zeal among other things.

Go try to a 4 man squad start. Get increased squads sizes instead of HTs. Upgrade all the men you want to G43s.

Watch how the rifleman blob steamrolls over you and caps the entire map leaving you wondering WOW that why did I try that.

[Panzer Jager]

Wehr doesn't roll out slow capping 3 man squads that need munitions to be worthwhile at all. They've got medic bunkers, quick vet 2, less reinforce cost, typically zeal among other things.

Capture Rate is a life-saver in competitive play.

Quick Vet2?
Vet2 costs 130 fuel if you'll be putting it into Grenadiers.

28x4 > 45x2.

PE has Group Zeal, why would they need 'Terror' Zeal?




You also forget these changes:

- US M10 3in main gun penetration increased 20% (from approx .35 to .42) vs Panzer Elite Jagdpanther
- US Sherman 76mm upgraded gun penetration increased 20% (from approx .32 to .38) vs Panzer Elite Jagdpanther
- Speed posture modifiers for Allied troops modified during retreat so that Panzer Elite G43 Warning shot won't reduce their retreat speeds or slow retreating units.


But look at the positive changes made to compensate:

- Panzer Elite Wirblewind does increased suppression.
- Panzer Elite Wirblewind does more increased penetration vs US Halftracks and M8 Greyhounds.
- Panzer Elite Wirblewind does more deflection damage against armoured targets.
- Panzer Elite 250 Funkwagen Vampire acceleration increased from 4.5 to 6
- Panzer Elite Kettenkrad has its sniper detection radius increased from 20m to 30m
- (Tank) guns do slightly less damage (1.35 vs 1.5) to Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite Tanks with Armoured Skirts.
- Panzer Elite Scorched Earth takes 10s longer to repair for most units (50s instead 40s).
- Panzer Elite Fallschirmjager ambush modifiers are increased significantly. Attacking out of camouflage, Fallschirmjager receive a 2x accuracy and 3x damage bonus.
- Panzer Elite Fallschirmjager will reveal themselves after 3 shots instead of 4 shots and revert_time_multiplier is increased from 1.25 to 1.5.
- Engineers, Sappers, Pioneers, and Panzer Grenadiers take 10s less to repair Scorched Earth (30s instead of 40s).
- Panzer Elite Sector artillery cannot be targeted on Friendly HQ territory (it would fail to attack an HQ territory and the ability would be wasted)
- Panzer Elite Suppressive Volley Fire will slow retreating squads to normal speed temporarily.
- Mine and Butterfly Bomb short and medium range accuracy and area of effect accuracy modifiers increased from 1/1 to 1.75/1.4. Mines will be deadlier to retreating units.

[HauptmannOx]

why we talkin bout wehr .how bout we agree wehr and PE have hard time against rifle spam and get back to the topic at hand

[Sturmtruppen]

what Panzer Jager said.... you can just list all the nerfs and complain about balance... thats fanboism at its finest...

[sighman]

PE is typically still one of the easiest factions to play. This whole thread is kind of ironic to me and try as you may, I could go PG spam and utterly annilihiate riflespam. I think your problem is that you expect your 1st G43 squad to utterly dominate. No, that should never happen, and you must use your manpower advantage against america (at the start you have 2 squads to his 1 riflesquad).

In addition, you are utterly wrong about the AT HT, it will destroy both the m8 and stuart mono-a-mono. Just threadbreak and keep it at max range.

Also, G43 still have scaling, in the same way that Volks have scaling, and yes volks do scale (they can recapture everything cheaply and their faust is a life-saver). Place a G43 squad defensively behind sandbags, and there is no infantry squad save a ranger squad that can charge it.

A sniper in a 1v1 is hardly a problem, and I actually find it easier to deal with then riflespam, because then I automatically know they went WSC, which means I fast tech to PIV, as it means either they lose capping power by going to Motorpool, or lose everything going rax.

Even with all these nerfs, I still find it a breeze to play them, slightly less so against high level Americans, but that is to be expected.

[zzSleeper]

In addition, you are utterly wrong about the AT HT, it will destroy both the m8 and stuart mono-a-mono. Just threadbreak and keep it at max range.


You don't even need treadbreaker, an AT-HT will beat down a m8/stuart head on with no abilities, it cannot be circle strafed due to its insane turn rate and it does a lot more damage to the m8/stuart than the vice versa.

Treadbreaker just lets you kill the m8/stuart for sure instead of having them run away at the sight of the ATHT.

[GodofBiscuits]

Grrrrr, how dare relic try to balance this game. I want my PE to shit mines and piss laser beams.

[Harry]

I am going to single handedly show you the entire concept of rifle blob steam rolling over pe is bs. READY!!!! HERE GOES!!!!


Seriously though watch this replay, and youll see that riflespam DOES NOT roll over PE. Im the american player.

[sighman]

And that is why you never go fast BARs against PG spam.

[Harry]

And that is why you never go fast BARs against PG spam. lol i wonder why i even waste my time sometimes. Ok, he says rifle spam rolls over pgrens - right? Well i pulled out a rifle blob WITH BARS and i didnt roll this guy over. But thanks 20x for your super insightful comment. At least i show a replay all you do is theorycraft 24/7.

[Demonic Spoon]

? Well i pulled out a rifle blob WITH BARS and i didnt roll this guy over.

It depends on the players. E.g. skill


I'd say things are -mostly- fine. Fix funkwagen/muni HT, maybe give them a spotter unit, and maybe raise the cost of the Panther callin and PE is perfect. Hordes of Group zeal'd, Veteran sergeant-upgraded 4-man g43 pgrens are fucking terrifying if used correctly.

[Panzer Jager]

You don't even need treadbreaker, an AT-HT will beat down a m8/stuart head on with no abilities, it cannot be circle strafed due to its insane turn rate and it does a lot more damage to the m8/stuart than the vice versa.

Actually, none of this is true about the Stuart vs. AT HT.

The Stuart kills the HT in 2 (and on rare occasions 3) shots.
The AT HT takes > 10 shots to kill the Stuart.
AT HT reloads faster, but not fast enough.


And it should stay this way.

[zzSleeper]

Actually, none of this is true about the Stuart vs. AT HT.

The Stuart kills the HT in 2 (and on rare occasions 3) shots.
The AT HT takes > 10 shots to kill the Stuart.
AT HT reloads faster, but not fast enough.


And it should stay this way.

It takes 3 shots to kill an AT HT with a stuart, not 2, 3 shots takes around 18 seconds.

In 18 seconds AT-HT can fire 7 shots, which is enough to destroy the stuart but it doesnt penetrate every time so probably not. Regardless, you'd have to be really not paying attention to lose an ATHT to a stuart.

[hashinshin]

zzSleeper, your biasness is starting to reach new levels of absurdity.

A ATHT beating a stuart ? Really ? Theres only so far you go go with your obvious hate of all things axis before you make a ridiculous statement.

Back on topic:

Americans ARE NOT being utterly trumped by PE. They are not dropping dead at the sight of a panzer grenadier. This patch is absurd with its level of nerfs to PE and its level of buffs to Americans. Can't any of the high level americans come in and hey "Hey TOO FAR RELIC, you've gone too far !"

This is starting to shape up like CoH 1.0 till 2.0 with the americans being the obvious favored race. Come on with it now.

[Tseng_Fox]

There clearly is a bias against Panzer Elite.

This is shown by the amount of patches that have came out that haven't sorted Logisitik Kompanie while nerfing PE. This is still not a viable opening. Vampire Funkwagon HT and Munitions HT havent been fixed and they still don't have a spotter unit.

The nerfs are acceptable for balance, but to balance the game they need to make Logistik Kompanie and Scorched Earth more viable. Scorched Earth is the new armour company.

I do feel that americans have been a bit overbuffed too.

[hashinshin]

I tried all day to NOT do a 2 infantryHT or AC rush against america or britain. ALL freaking day. Obliterated my rank down to 700 or so (got it up to ~450 now but I'll work on that later.)

It does not work. PGs before 4 man squads or group zeal are absolute cannnon fodder to american blobs. My dreams of doing a logistiks start with G43 spam have been dashed. I want to do a ranged superiority start with so many G43s you'll never get a ranger or commando close. Its just not possible.

PE have been so nerfed that the 2x infantry HT or AC rush are the only viable tactics. And those are being nerfed.

I don't think PE will have a prayer for a decent game once riflespam swarms over their start.

Anything logistiks is mega fail. The scout car fails to supply any damage at ALL to possibly give you any sort of anything. Attach a 10 or 20 fuel cost to the thing I don't care. It needs to supply enough ranged damage to actually be worth building to support your PGs. The Logistiks building also offers no AT support. Your best bet is a MarderIII rush which can easily be trumped by a greyhound getting into you at which point GG game over.

[Tseng_Fox]

Problem is airborne. Unless I have a Wirbelwind then I cant stop them firing up and rushing my HTs with RRs. Slow is a utter waste of munitions now.

[TeaSeeOh]

My dreams of doing a logistiks start with G43 spam have been dashed.

This is just ridiculous. The patches so far in the beta haven't even touched on G43's or Pgrens. That strat will be the same in the beta, as it is in vanilla, and as an American player, I can tell you, it works damn well. None of the patches thus far have even touched upon Panzer Grenadier effectiveness in general, same with Rifles(barring their increase in getting vet). Which basically means, G43's will still put rifles down.


The scout car fails to supply any damage at ALL to possibly give you any sort of anything. Attach a 10 or 20 fuel cost to the thing I don't care. It needs to supply enough ranged damage to actually be worth building to support your PGs.

And this is just the icing on the cake. Scout Cars aren't meant to compliment your Panzer Grenadiers. They never were. They're still meant for op'ing points, and even with the nerfs to Scout Car(which were already implemented in vanilla), they can still add an extra punch to your Infantry early game. Mid-late, you can turn them into op's, that can defend themselves.

Analogy: are Jeeps meant to add an extra offensive punch to accompany your rifles? No.

Also, try using an AT-HT once in a while, it'll do wonders against Greyhounds.

[Jaigen]

The pe are possibly overnerfed where the inf-ht and AC are concerned. Right now i already have an incredible succes rate with riflepam fast bars > rangers. vs the pe.

[k0lyan]

1) pe have problems with huge rifle spam>>>us start only with 1 engi squad and then build 5-6 rifle squad with bars.
At the same time wehr have mg42 teams which will easily suppress them,+wehr have medic bunkers.
2)At very early game pe have vulnerable 3 man squads, at the same time in late game pe have extremely strong squads (4man +mp44 , etc).
3)wehr can counter us snipers better, at the same time pe have big problems with rifle blob +sniper combo.
4)pe doesnt have general "anti all tank, like shemans or wehr p4, or even stug 4.
5)pe light vehicles become useless in late game. (what can armored cars or inf ht, do vs rifles with bars + paras combo?).
6)wehr have nerfed stukas to blast brit enplacements, at the same time pe have only mortal ht (whick become pretty useless vs overrepaired bofos, arty +captain), of course the have hummel, but its a doctine unit.
7)pe have extremely fast tech, compared to us/wehr.

So pe shouldnt be "just nerfed", they need to be rebalanced.

[hashinshin]

TeaSeaOH, I had hopes with AMPLE nerfs (to near uselessness) of the AC and infantryHT that a regular infantry based start would be viable. No. Just getting to 4 man squads is 25 fuel (and useless building.) But heres the main point:

PGs are WORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTHLESS unless they have a weapon upgrade. If you go with an infantry start you will be putting more manpower into PGs than you have munitions to buy Kar98ks for. This could be easily somewhat solved by giving them the stormtrooper elite Kar98 (same with falls.)

Your PGs will be steamrolled by the riflespam early game if you go with an infantry start. Absolutely steamrolled. They are called the panzer elite for a reason, they aren't supposed to be all infantry. The scout car used to support PGs but now its too weak to do it. Being overnerfed for its job doesn't mean it wasn't supposed to be supporting PGs.

I suggest giving the scout car a 10 fuel cost but increasing it's damage. Or, giving it an upgrade at 25 or so fuel to give it a full blown HMG (similiar to the vickers on the carrier.)

Also, revert the nerfs to the infantry HT and AC or buff their life or something.

K0ylan I would love if PE got rebalanced. The idea of elite infantry with elite ranged weapons (G43) raining down hell on the enemies sounds great to me. Unfortunetly in practice its a mad rush to 4 man MP44 squads cause those are the only things that can stop the rifleblob. If G43s got an increase in damage at long/medium range to counteract these buffs then maybe a G43 start could stave off the rifleblob.

A big problem to me is how quickly replaced G43s are by the superior MP44. The MP44 + group zeal blob is PE's only real "counter" to an allied blob.

They could make it so the increase squad sizes upgrade increases the suppression done by G43s such that G43s could suppress down the early rifleblob, much like infantryHTs do now. That would atleast give both starts a viable way to stave off the rifleblob.

Generally, a way to make the logistiks start give a viable way to use massed G43s in anything other than a hide behind cover till the rifleblob gets close and kills you way. This would hardly if anything effect late game and wouldn't really do much the the half track start since logistiks is the user of massed G43s in big numbers. Logistiks also can't AC rush since increased squad sizes is 25 fuel. Logistiks ALSO typically has to go ATHT instead of MarderIII to get some fast reliable AT going, since they don't get panzershreks, THUSLY this only supports buffing the G43 more since the logistiks start doesn't get MP44s till much later.

[Catastrofizum]

I know there has been a lot of complaining about excessive PE nerfs so far, but I think in general PE remains strong. The AC nerf was very appropriate. The Marder sight nerf is a bit of a concern, and the Hummel nerf has weakened SE too much. I think SE needs parity with Royal Artillery but now it won't be able to compete in the artillery stakes. Oh, and infantry half track nerf was definitely unnecessary. I think the PE schrek needs a small buff too.

[Tseng_Fox]

PE just needs some rebalancing. Tune up their underpowered and underused things.

Balance is when all 4 factions can go a tier 1-2-3-4 match while still having a fair chance to win. Currently for PE its more like tier 2-4 with possibly tier 3 or 1, but not both or else you run the serious risk of overextending.

[Tod]

Maybe some of those nerfs were a little too much, but it is way too early to tell. Yes, most of the useful PE units got nerfed and up to now only two of the weak ones (Wirbels and FSJs) got fixes. So ATM we shouldn't be complaining about the nerfs, but asking for fixes for the remaining units. Than, when all PE units got a useable place, we can rethink again if buffing of the others is really needed or if the new synergies are enough to help PE stay competitive.


K0ylan I would love if PE got rebalanced. The idea of elite infantry with elite ranged weapons (G43) raining down hell on the enemies sounds great to me. Unfortunetly in practice its a mad rush to 4 man MP44 squads cause those are the only things that can stop the rifleblob. If G43s got an increase in damage at long/medium range to counteract these buffs then maybe a G43 start could stave off the rifleblob.

A big problem to me is how quickly replaced G43s are by the superior MP44. The MP44 + group zeal blob is PE's only real "counter" to an allied blob
I think you vastly underestimate the power of G43s, especially of multiple G43s with off vet. No other PE weapon gains such a big bonus from their vet.

[TheWickedGerman]

They will never get vet when they get owned early on. Vet doesnt help early games vs rifleblob.

[CroatNotBorat]

There cannot be such a thing as a "rifleblob", unless you were seriously outplayed.

If you haven't watched this replay, please do so now: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=196922

All the "PE patch concerns" are simply a skill issue, not a real problem (what *is* a real problem is how much the Americans suck against PE). RonaldDumsfeld summed it up nicely on gr.org's replay section:

http://www.gamereplays.org/CompanyofHeroes/replays.php?game=25&tab=popular&show=details&id=37412&st=50


Despite a cautious start by Sepha by the time PE take their first casualty (5 mins) US is down 10 men. By the time rough map parity is achieved (7 mins) and both players tech US is down 20 blokes and PE down only 4. Nearly 500 manpower to the bad.

You might say Sepha was unlucky to lose both a whole rifle and engie squads but even if he had managed to save them both with one man remaining he would still have been nearly 300 down.

Fair enough you say. Swings and roundabouts. Now it's the US turn to benefit when the M8s hit the field.

Nope. By the end of the 2nd phase @ 10 mins US is not only down 1 M8 but also by 38 blokes. Total PE losses? 13 PGz. That's it.

Coming back from a near 1,000 manpower deficit needed to maintain resourse income after 10 minutes is a mountain to climb, at any level let alone the very top. Even if you discount the losses from the M8 and 3 whole squads rather than simple reinforce costs it's practically 2 units down.

[Tseng_Fox]

I don't see all the complaints that US have. It just seems like whining.

US can cope fine. Expecially with all these buffs they have gotten.

[Thinking42Man]

There have been way more changes than those you cite.

Sure, anyone with half a brain and a bias can pick a faciton and list all the negative changes they have gotten, but it doesn't add up to anything like a convincing balance argument.

[German Steel!]

I don't understand how PE is supposed to reliably counter M10s, M8s and Rangers/Airborne now, but that's just me I guess.

[Harry]

zzSleeper, your biasness is starting to reach new levels of absurdity.
lmao

two replays have been put up as evidence to show that pgren spam to AC or p4 works, you can even throw a Inf HT and have it work. It sall abut taking care of your inf HT. Ive yet to see a replay or any solid evidence for you to say PE have it bad, the PE american match up is balanced now more than ever. And I'm freaking happy.

Rangers and paras cost more in upkeep to field now. m8 is as simple as AT HT.

[Tseng_Fox]

two replays have been put up as evidence to show that pgren spam to AC or p4 works, you can even throw a Inf HT and have it work.

Thats only one strat.

What about a Logisitik Start? can you possibly say that this is balanced versus a American player going Airborne?

PE/US is looking more balanced yes and now its time to address the underpowered side of PE. Mainly Logistik and Scorched Earth. Only after thats been done will the game be finally balanced in this matchup since then all Doctrines and units from both PE and US will be viable.

For example, look to the Munitions HT and the Vampire HT. How many players use these units online? have relic implemented fixes to make these units more viable?

[Harry]

American players have been focusing mainly on m8 rushes now and forever it seems in 1 v 1


Mainly Logistik and Scorched Earth. Only after thats been done will the game be finally balanced. look to the Munitions HT and the Vampire HT

But this is a very good point I agree.

[Borrish]

I don't get why Logistiks has to be a viable start. WSC isn't a viable start for the USA either yet no-one bitches that it's unfair because they have to build a barracks. It's still usefull for the upgrades and scout cars in a team game with two PE players. I do agree that the munitions halftrack and the vamprire need a looking at though.

[Tseng_Fox]

I don't get why Logistiks has to be a viable start. WSC isn't a viable start for the USA either yet no-one bitches that it's unfair because they have to build a barracks. It's still usefull for the upgrades and scout cars in a team game with two PE players.

I feel that a WSC start should be made viable too. But lets consider whats in each building:

US get Snipers, Mortars and HMG. HMG is a bit underpowered but can still be useful against a PE player that moves his HT too close for too long. US snipers are amazing versus PE. Expecially double snipers with Airborne/M8 to deal with veichle support. Mortars are fairly decent too.

PE get Scout Cars, Munitions HT and Vampire HT. Scout Car have some use early game, but as it goes to mid-late game the only use they have is as an OP, although thats okay. Munitions HT/Vampire HT have no use really. AT grenades is a reasonable research ability but requires a tier 4 unit to work right. 4 Man squads is the diamond among the trash.

In exchange for the buffs I'd want for Logisitik Kompanie, I'd be fine with corresponding buffs to American Mortar and HMG.

[natrapsmai]

Count me in the camp that wants to completely rebalance (redesign?) the Panzer Elite.

And while I agree with your overall sentinment hashin, you're acting like G43s don't do shit... that couldn't be further from the truth. They're IMO the best upgrade in the game, considering performance/cost/availability. They do a senseless amount of damage to just about everything... there is no downside, that is, to them.

We can theorycraft until we turn blue but I think it's common knowledge that at the very least the PE versus US metagame is fairly lame... so I would love to see some attention put into the finer details of the match up. Wehr/Brits/Amer seem to be pretty well off at the moment and I especially love the changes to rifleman vet and Armor company/tank depot units. Now tweak the PE, because the whole faction is just not well off right now considering the rest of the beta changes.

[Demonic Spoon]

What about a Logisitik Start? can you possibly say that this is balanced versus a American player going Airborne?

Depends. The vamp HT, muni HT, and SC are all really support vehicles (except SC very early on, which is good for flanking rifles for your PGs). Even if they were changed, it wouldn't affect the Logistik start. It would only affect Logistiks later in the game.

4-man PG squad spam is awesome. You wont have G43s on all of them, but you will have G43s on -enough- of them, and the squad advantage + the larger squad size means that the lack of G43s on the rest of the PGs is a nonissue.

If you don't like Logistik start -> g43 spam then that's your problem. It's damn effective in the right hands.

[Tseng_Fox]

Well, a mix of Scout Cars and Panzer Grenaiders with Gwehrs can be pretty deadly. What I was meaning by unviable start was that I feel the Munitions HT should have a more clear role. Its all about Supplying the PanzerGrenaiders, so why not give it the reinforce PanzerGrenaider ability, possibly from the Inf Ht? this would mean its a real support unit and it dosent have a weapon so might not be overpowered.

This would mean that all three Logisitik units have uses fairly early on instead of the PE player having to rush for Infantry HTs every game.

[k0lyan]

I use logistik start often:
1) 4 man squads with g43.
2)Panzer-Support Kommand for quick ATHT. (to counter m8)
3)Fallshirmjagers+fg42 to counter rifles/rangers/para.

Probably its the only start which can counter early and huge rifle+para blob.
Infantry ht will be eaten by rifles now, of cource pe can get mortal ht. But pe will have big problem with m8 (screck have bad accuracy vs them,one marder will be useless vs them, because m8 can circle around it.)

[Thinking42Man]

The Muni HT should recieve a smoke ability that would work like the (possibly RSE/RSA only?) Command Tank's.

[hashinshin]

Harry, don't go into the same biased camp as zzSleeper. I said his argument that a ATHT beats a stuart was the most biased thing I've ever heard in my life. If you want to argue that a ATHT CAN beat a stuart be my guest.

That first replay clearly shows an armored company staying over 30 minutes into the game against PE and eventually losing. Thats not exactly convincing me the PE early game dominates america.

[Tseng_Fox]

Harry, don't go into the same biased camp as zzSleeper. I said his argument that a ATHT beats a stuart was the most biased thing I've ever heard in my life. If you want to argue that a ATHT CAN beat a stuart be my guest.

But it can. Treadbreak it and it won't move. Shrecks/marder can clean it up after that or possibly the AT-HT too if you have time.

I don't see whats so biased about it.

[hashinshin]

Thats like saying you can treadbreaker a sherman and beat it.

You have 76% penetration against a stuart and do NOT have the 1.5 damage multiplier the ATHT commonly gets.

It gets 26% penetration and 65% accuracy at long range against the stuart.

If you can not attack with british infantry, be beaten and retreat, attack again, be beaten and retreat, then attack a third time and then force the ATHT and retreat then repair the stuart in this time.... then wow.

BTW, he said ATHT versus stuart. Flat 1v1.

[Tseng_Fox]

An AT-HT versus Stuart 1vs1 is hit and miss. If you have Treadbreaker available then you can treadbreak it and pull out of the Stuarts range and kill it slowly. If you dont have treadbreaker you will lose.

You should have at least 2 PanzerGrenaiders supporting by the time he sends in the british infantry considering PE infantry is cheaper in terms of manpower.

[natrapsmai]

About ATHTs...

If you can treadbreak a unit trying to kill you, in a 1v1 slugfest, the ATHT loses unless you pull it outside of the other tank's range. In that case, half the time ATHT won't do shit unless he's got a rear angle and he's hitting each time. It's either too inaccurate or just bounces off each time.

It by itself is not a reliable counter. You need two plus something else... be it AT nades, Shreks, or Marders.

[zzSleeper]

Harry, don't go into the same biased camp as zzSleeper. I said his argument that a ATHT beats a stuart was the most biased thing I've ever heard in my life. If you want to argue that a ATHT CAN beat a stuart be my guest.


Whats so biased about it? Treadbreak, pull out of range, snipe it to death.

Sure it will bounce a lot but ATHT does half damage on deflection, similar to AT guns. British infantry you say? Where are your own supporting infantry?

At the very least you should not be LOSING an ATHT to a stuart, which is exactly what I said in my post.

Its also pretty hilarious that you said ATHT would lose to m8 without treadbreaker and then accuse me of bias.

[Tseng_Fox]

Theres nothing wrong with the AT-HT. It acts as a supporting unit. Its not really meant to kill much by itself.

Yes, it isn't a counter. But its the means to boost the Counter. Shrecks have piss-poor accuracy. Treadbreaker means that shrecks can get to fire their Panzershrecks at the ideal range without it moving away.

The problems that need to be fixed is early game Scorched Earth, Vampire Ht, Munitions HT. (possibly scout cars, maybe not though). These are all problems that have been known that needs fixing.

Every other unit is now solid and balanced. Further playtesting is required before re-tuning should happen.

[Jaigen]

Its also pretty hilarious that you said ATHT would lose to m8 without treadbreaker and then accuse me of bias.

He is correct you know. m8 still get that on the move bonus and the at-ht isnt accurate. destroy the engine or immbolize and the m8 suffers massive received accuracy penalty allowing the AT-HT to kill it otherwise it will simply miss to much

[Ap0k]

If someone can explain to me, in one paragraph, how you think it's possible to discuss an entire faction in one thread, without the whole thing dissolving into a bunch of specific tangents and screwing the whole thing up, or a giant wishlist of suggestions, I may let this one live.

Time starts now!

[zzSleeper]

He is correct you know. m8 still get that on the move bonus and the at-ht isnt accurate. destroy the engine or immbolize and the m8 suffers massive received accuracy penalty allowing the AT-HT to kill it otherwise it will simply miss to much

You mean the 20% penalty to accuracy the ATHT has against the M8?

Do you realize how much damage the ATHT deals? It fires every 3 seconds and deals 40-45 damage per shot to the M8, M8 fires every 7 seconds and deals 50 damage.

The 20% miss chance is not going to tilt the balance in the M8's favor.


Yes, it isn't a counter. But its the means to boost the Counter. Shrecks have piss-poor accuracy. Treadbreaker means that shrecks can get to fire their Panzershrecks at the ideal range without it moving away.


Yes and no, the ATHT hard counters the M8, period, it hard counters most light vehicles in the game.

The stuart is the only one that stands a chance(well and the tetrach), but shreks absolutely rape the stuart, two hits will kill one and stuart gets none of the M8's dodge bonuses.

[karvajalka]

PE was too damn powerfull in 2.3, but now im afraid that US is getting this title in 2.4. US inf call ins could use nerf, but i dont see whats the problem with PE. Whole argument that ATHT is useless, is rubbish. ATHT, AC, wilberwind, MTHT and infHT are there to *support* your PGrens, they are not frontline units. This is very opposite than they are used as. Only unit US can use for this kind of thing from motor pool is M8, and you know exactly how much you can whine about it. Quess how US feeled, when there was no jacks shit they could do about MTHT/AC/PIV/ATHT with just puny riflemen.

MTHT coupled with tank buster squad or 2 will win stuart any day or night. ATHT will destroy anything lighter alone. With enough time, ATHT will solo even stuart. Some times when reading these arguments i cant help it but wonder if you even use PGrens with your trucks. PGrens are fearsome units. Its up to you to back them up with proper vehicles.

[sighman]

If someone can explain to me, in one paragraph, how you think it's possible to discuss an entire faction in one thread, without the whole thing dissolving into a bunch of specific tangents and screwing the whole thing up, or a giant wishlist of suggestions, I may let this one live.

Time starts now!

It doesn't. Why?

Well for starters, it is started by a member of this forum that in his entire history of contributions here, has only whined about the impossibilities that Axis factions have to go through in order to beat an Allied faction. This member constantly blows things out of proportion too and many-a-times, including in this thread, has accused others of only wanting one faction or another to stay OP (hypocrite?). Another reason is as you stated, is that this thread is too general and cannot possibly deal with the entire aspect of the Panzer Elite faction as a whole, even when taking into account only the specific nerfs allocated to them, consequently making it irrelevant to balance as a whole. Finally, people have uploaded hard evidence proving that the OP is wrong, whilst the same could not be said of the OP, who only brings up specific instants of theory-crafting pertaining to how the Panzer Elite have been nerfed too much.

[Tseng_Fox]

How about we use the thread to talk about the changes that have been made so far then?