[2.407] Snipers and such.

[PluTT]

As you know, in non beta PE has a lot of problems with snipers this has somewhat been remidied by the increase in detection of the ketten to 30m from 20m. This, I feel, has helped PE a lot against snipers.

There is a problem, still, with snipers which is that the only real viable counter for them as AM or WM is snipers. It's extremely hard to play without sniper against a sniper heavy opponent. Not so much in 1vs1, but I think it's is a real issue in 2vs2, both in retail and in beta. In a double AM matchup you can be almost certain that one of the americans will go WSC and will have at least 3 snipers. If you are double WM you are in for a tough fight if you, yourself, don't build a lot of snipers. You can always build a bike, but with a detection range of 18 you are going to get killed before you can even see his snipers. Especially if he has recoilless airborne as a screen for them.

This not only a problem for WM but also for AM players, the jeep is equally crappy at detecting stuff, it is nigh impossible for a jeep to find a stealthed ketten for instance.

I would like to discuss if it would be a good idea, considering how the ketten is doing in the beta, to increase both the bike and the jeeps detection radius to 25m or even 30m that would make them very viable as a counter to snipers.

As of now I feel that your only chance is to either build more snipers than your opponent or hope he makes mistakes with them.

As for brits, they might need a slight increase with their recon squads, not much though since they can effectivly countersnipe snipers.

[Borrish]

Yeah because PE is the faction that has the most trouble with snipers. They have the smallest squads of any faction and don't have any kind of long range "snipe" ability. WM and AM can counter snipers fairly well. The one thing that does fuck it up though is the recieved accuracy bonus that the AM sniper gets.

[PluTT]

You do realise how much 30m sniper detection is right?

[Cyberbob]

don't have any kind of long range "snipe" ability.

Ever hear of the ATHT?

[Catastrofizum]

I would like to discuss if it would be a good idea, considering how the ketten is doing in the beta, to increase both the bike and the jeeps detection radius to 25m or even 30m that would make them very viable as a counter to snipers.

You trying to kill off the sniper as a viable unit? Seriously, bike and jeep do just fine against them as is. The ketten buff was enacted to balance the enormous power the US sniper has over PE. Snipers in relation to other factions is fine. As for PE, I think they are still hard done by here. 1v1 is ok. But try a team game as double PE, against players with excellent sniper micro. Welcome to hell baby! Sadly to have the best chance here, at least one player will have to go Luftwaffe, for the stealth ketten, and even then you will need a mistake by your opponent. Knowing that the opponent is double PE, one ally player (most likely a Brit, since nobdy plays double US at high level AT) will provide the infantry, the US will go WSC, with a quick MG then heavy sniper spam. Once they have 2 up they can start really causing some massive damage. Some will go a 3rd, and if you havn't been lucky enough to kill one so far you're in a world of pain by now. About now you will pop your AC and coordinate with stealth ketten to try nail some of these bastards. The clever user of the sniper will anticipate this stage of the game and keep them very close to garrisoned MG/Bren gun support. It's really your only shot, or the game is over. You will have lost too much mp, been bullied off all the good resources.

It just doesn't make sense that PE doesn't have a genuine counter to a unit from another army. It seems a unique case in the game. Instead they get a mixed bag of hokey half counter measures. What further annoys is that the best of these involve a doctrine specific unit.

Solution: Simple! Give them a genuine counter. The Brits got the counter shot(similar to a sniper in functionality), so how about the PE get.....the SC(similar to the Wehr bike/US jeep in functionality). A SC that can detect and kill snipers!

[Wolfhere]

Solution: Simple! Give them a genuine counter. The Brits got the counter shot(similar to a sniper in functionality), so how about the PE get.....the SC(similar to the Wehr bike/US jeep in functionality). A SC that can detect and kill snipers!

I would even go so far to suggest that the 30m detection be removed from the kettens, and given to the SC instead. I would another give a good reason the build the first PE building aside from the increased squad size. Slightly reduce the cost of the ketten, and slightly increas the cost of the SC.

[natrapsmai]

IMO 30m is just way too great of a detection radius... and a cloaked ket shouldn't detect anything at all. A cloaked unit detecting and revealing another cloaked unit? Please.

Scout Cars should have had this ability from day 1 - it says it right there in the tool tips. Fix that and this problem goes away pretty quickly.

[Pershing720]

PE does have a counter. Suppressive fire.

[Tseng_Fox]

PE does have a counter. Suppressive fire.

It got nerfed in this patch so the Sniper can just retreat. You pay 20 munitions for nothing now.

Scout Car should do what its tooltip says and actually be good versus Snipers as well as detect them. I'll even agree to removal of the detection range from the kettenkrad for it.

[Pershing720]

- Panzer Elite Suppressive Volley Fire will slow retreating squads to normal speed temporarily.

I've tested the change and its just like it used to be. Retreating infantry are slowed for a long time before actually retreating.

[Tseng_Fox]

In that case, Scout Cars should do less damage versus riflemen and more versus snipers.

Would encourage combined arms at least.

But still, a good american player wont leave his Sniper standing around, so it'll cloak pretty soon.

[DrCloud]

I think the whole of the Logistiks Kompanie is pretty messed up, but I'm not going to go off on a tangent about that again. I agree with the idea that buffing the Ketten's detection range was a step in the wrong direction, though, and that the idea of a cloaked unit with a big detection range is not particularly nice (unless you really want PE Luftwaffe to resemble the Protoss).

I think it would be much more sensible to make the Scout Car useful as an actual scout instead, and if that involves moving some of its less-than-logical abilities (observation post wtf?) to other units then so be it.

I don't really agree that the jeep or bike need to be any better at spotting snipers than they already are.

[Catastrofizum]

PE does have a counter. Suppressive fire.

That's not what I would call a genuine counter. It works much like the Brit counter shot, except that after applying this you still have the job of finishing the sniper off. Of course the retreat modifiers will go straight on making the job tougher. But it isn't too hard if that sniper has no protection around it and your free to run alongside it, peppering it until it dies. But that's a big if.


- Panzer Elite Suppressive Volley Fire will slow retreating squads to normal speed temporarily.

I've tested the change and its just like it used to be. Retreating infantry are slowed for a long time before actually retreating.

I believe it is different now. What happened before is that a 'slowed' squad retreated at the 'slowed' speed, so hitting retreat had no effect except to add the retreat modifiers. Now what happens is that the unit retreats at normal speed. In other words, it retreats at the speed at which it normally walks, which is faster than before. In other words, this particular half sniper counter measure, which could certainly work on occasion, has been weakened considerably.

[Moon Pine]

a Scout Car/ Infantry Halftrack + a Katternad.
PE just don't have anything to counter a sniper all by it own.

[PluTT]

You guys think it's fine to only have snipers as a counter to snipers? Because in a 2vs2 your bike or jeep isn't going to come near shit. You will only be able to see snipers when they fire and most of the time they will fire far behind your enimies troops. It's not uncommon for players in a 2vs2 to build 3 or even 4 snipers. This is of course a pain mainly to WM and PE due to small squad sizes but it works two ways. And I do think the 30m detection range for the ketten helps ALOT, the ketten can detect from afar supporting your other soldiers.

I don't think that an increased detection range for the bike and jeep would make snipers unviable it would just make sniper platoons more risky. I'm not sure about the range of the detection though I just know that 18, the current one, is waaaaay to short to make the bike or jeep good for anything other than hunting down lone stray snipers. But lone stray snipers aren't the problem it's 3-4 snipers supporting a group of other infantry. Snipers are supposed too hang backand support your units, it's just that the way it is now they can't be killed while doing that unless your opponents make big mistakes.

[sgb]

PE definitely needs the SC to detect. As for the bike and jeep, I'd rather just see their weapon damage go up. The jeep in particular costs 220 and has trouble fighting even pioneers. I'm not asking it to win against a full volks squad, but it should at least HURT them.

As an added bonus, the terrible US AI would get huge boost.

[barcibus]

It's already too easy for the Jeep to kill a ketten (even without the never-to-be fixed Ketten pathing AI), more damage would only exacerbate that.
A well microed Jeep is also very hard to kill and ends up running away to get repaired frequently. If it did more damage, imagine what would happen when you started spamming them... 220mp isn't expensive.
Not sure about the balance regarding Wher, but a buffed up Jeep could be a big problem for PE (early game especially).

[Cyberbob]

That would be the point of only buffing it versus infantry armour, barcibus.