[2.408] Interesting debate over at GR.org [Archive]

PeterPeterson1

1st Jul 08, 12:52 AM

I think it is okay. A ketten couldn't kill a sniper. Even cloaked you could hear it if you listn. SE ketten could lay booby traps, TH ketten could repair and FJ ketten could be cloaked. All other variables has to be the same! Find a way to live with the new situation. And if nobody found a way to beat it, then reduce the detection range by 5 meters. But try it 1 or 2 patches. I found it painfull that my sniper becomes detectet but i found the ketten very easily each time!

And iaguz, the linked thread isn't interesting. it is not awsome. It shows some ranting trolls and how many "fucking" could be used in a small sentence!

scoiatollo

1st Jul 08, 1:00 AM

This change is around since 2.403.
Imo it's wrong that PE has to best detection range since their army is already the most mechanised one plus isn't the Vampire Funkwagen supposed to be a spotter as well?

I don't wanna bring this up but Brits have by far the worst detection in the game, suffer equally from snipers as PE and yet they don't have a highly mobile detector and have to live with this situation.

Melonplant

1st Jul 08, 1:06 AM

I don't wanna bring this up but Brits have by far the worst detection in the game, suffer equally from snipers as PE and yet they don't have a highly mobile detector and have to live with this situation.

Recon squad in a bren carrier!

Moving on...

I'd say give cloaked kettens 50% of the detection radius. Hell, even an uncloaked ketten could sentence a sniper to it's doom forever.

Maybe kets could have a muni costing upgrade to give it it's awesome detect range, or something of the like. That stuff is nasty for poor american snipers!

Just kidding about the bren carrier comment. Just to prevent severe thread derailment that will eventually revolve around trenches.

German Steel!

1st Jul 08, 1:07 AM

Ah, finally, my 2v2 AT mate will be able to kill Snipers without us having to sacrifice units, cut off random body parts as sacrifices to lady luck and go to bed with our own mothers. I don't understand why people complain about this. American snipers are hard enough to actually kill as it is, when they're used by a skilled player. Not even being able to detect them...

And as expected, this is of course the end of the world... as soon as something is not imbalanced, it is always ''the end of the world''.

CroatNotBorat

1st Jul 08, 2:04 AM

Cloaked ketten uncloaks sniper -> uncloaked ketten

That, or cloaked kettens should have a range of, dunno, 5.

Widowmaker1

1st Jul 08, 2:47 AM

Remove its ability to detect snipers while cloaked and leave it as it is while uncloaked. That's the best way. You cloak and scout ahead, or you go sniper huntin g with an uncloaked ketten...easy as that...and nobody really builds a second ketten after it's destroyed as it dies in miliseconds in later tiers. Ketten could benefit from some additional modifiers health/received accuracy to make it viable as capping machine even in later tiers...

scoiatollo

1st Jul 08, 2:53 AM

Well Melon you nearly got me with your BC suggestion... ;)

I still fail to see why PG needs a spotter with the largest detection range. Even if you use the Krad uncloaked you'd see snipers before they are even in effective shooting range so you rush your SC/inHTs/ACs/... in and either force the sniper to retreat (he won't have fired a shot) or you kill it. In both occasions US wasted a lot resources for gaining nothing.

ServerToni

1st Jul 08, 2:54 AM

I think it's ok. PE has 3-men-squads. Even with one US-Sniper it's very easy to kill a squad: The first one is shot, the second one is shot on the way to the sniper, and the poor third last guy is shot in a fight against the sniper.

Yes in team-games its easier for Wehrmacht-Guy to kill a sniper with the help of a (cloacked) Kettenkrad. But ... shouldn't team games be there to play together? And it's just a sniper. Not the whole army ...

The cloacked Kettenkrad is doctrine specific ... uncloacked Kettenkrads are not that powerful beacuse u see them and can pwn them. Luftwaffe has 88s and Flakvierling and has to prevent them from US Snipers more than other PE doctrines have.. It's just fair that they have a "kettenkrad" with cloacking ability and also this detection radius...

scoiatollo

1st Jul 08, 3:09 AM

The cloacked Kettenkrad is doctrine specific ...
Great does that mean we can revert the RSE emplacement improvements since this is doctrine specific as well? Or how about buffing the Pershing on a level of the KT, cause you know it's doctrine specific....

Kettenkrads now have a detection range which is nearly the sight range of most units and you don't see a problem with that?

Widowmaker1

1st Jul 08, 3:09 AM

Snipers are now usually kept just behind the main force, so rushing in range to detect with a ketten for the rest of your troops to kill isn't an option as it'll die in miliseconds.
US snipers punish PE heavily due to the small squads and the lack of PE counter-sniping. US snipers are and have been too good vs PE with US experienced players commonly ending games where a sniper has over 35+ kills....that's way too many kills for any 1 unit...

PeterPeterson1

1st Jul 08, 3:11 AM

The cloacked Kettenkrad is doctrine specific ... uncloacked Kettenkrads are not that powerful beacuse u see them and can pwn them. Luftwaffe has 88s and Flakvierling and has to prevent them from US Snipers more than other PE doctrines have.. It's just fair that they have a "kettenkrad" with cloacking ability and also this detection radius... that is a very good point

DynamicDude

1st Jul 08, 3:11 AM

i agree with server toni ...

the pe needs a vehicle to uncover the us sniper and kill him.... the grens at first in a 3man squad prepare to die if they attack a sniper on their own by searching him, shoot at him and then dying because of its low teammembers O_O

scoiatollo

1st Jul 08, 3:17 AM

US snipers are and have been too good vs PE with US experienced players commonly ending games where a sniper has over 35 kills....that's way too many kills for any 1 unit...

You do realise that the same applies to Brits when they face a WE sniper but instead of giving them some chance to cope with them after the recon shot range reduction they removed vehicle detection and left them with a 700/35/10 spotting unit

Can anyone here lay out one reason why PE needs a highly mobile detection unit with a detection range that's nearly the sight range of normal units?

Ballist1x

1st Jul 08, 3:36 AM

its wrong. If the ket is cloaked it shouldnt spot Snipers (IMO) let alone have such an insane spotting range.

ofdarkss1

1st Jul 08, 3:44 AM

I think its good change, because as PE i always had problem with US snipers

scoiatollo

1st Jul 08, 4:14 AM

That's no reason to give it the best detection range by far (hell even before that change it was the best spotter around).

By that reason you should buff the Stuart so it can stand a chance against StuGs/P4s since you know Brits have the worst AT midgame and suffered against a rushed StuG/P4...
Or how about a health buff for ranger since you know they suffer against tripple vet STG44 PGs.
And WE, well they have a hard time against tommies T1 if they don't rely on bikes or mg42 so why not buff the Volks damage output?

saikou

1st Jul 08, 4:16 AM

scoiatollo, what are you rambling about?

scoiatollo

1st Jul 08, 4:21 AM

That's not rambling, I simply want an answer why on earth some people seem to think that the initial detection range is not enough for the sniper and continue to say how bad PE are against snipers whereas Brits are probably in the same boat and don't have such an awesome spotter unit and NOONE seems to care!

Seriously give me one good reason why that is needed despite the hard time they have countering a sniper!

Tark1n

1st Jul 08, 4:27 AM

brits have bren carrier and countersnipe

scoiatollo

1st Jul 08, 4:33 AM

Than play them and tell me again that BC and countersnipe help against a well microed sniper. PE have ACs/infHTs/... and SCs early game to hunt sniper while already having the better spotting unit.

I still don't see any reasonable explanation why Kettens need to have such a high detection range so how about you give one instead of making a one line derailing post...

PeterPeterson1

1st Jul 08, 4:40 AM

Vampire didn't work against snipers. They only detect uncloaked units. I really think the large detection range is a good thing. if your sniper becomes uncloaked you know there is a ketten and you can hunt him down. Instead of a sniper it can't fire back

Panzer Jager

1st Jul 08, 4:41 AM

brits have bren carrier and countersnipe

Bren can't detect.
Countersnipe does work well though.
Brits arn't AS vulnerable to Snipers as PE.
Why?

5-man Tommy squads reinforcing at 35 mp each means they can take about 2-4 Sniper shots before retreating. Each shot costs 35 manpower. If the Axis sniper kills 10 tommies he was worth the buy.

3-4 man Panzer Grenadier squads reinforcing at 45 mp each means they can take 1-2 sniper shots before retreating. Each shot costs 45 manpower. If the US sniper kills 8 Panzer Grenadiers, he was worth the buy.

PE may have Vehicles to ignore snipers and often kill them, but Brits start with the Recon squad which is a decent (although not hard) counter to Snipers. Neither Brits or PE have hard counters to Snipers, but they both have ways to deal with them. Brits have Counter-snipe, PE have Ketten detect as well as G43 slow + another unit.

and SCs early game to hunt sniper while already having the better spotting unit.

Scout Cars have no detection range.
Similar to the Bren.

scoiatollo

1st Jul 08, 4:47 AM

Oh great, than increase the spotting range of all other spotters as well since this seems to be okay for PE. That would render snipers useless but wth, another unit nobody builds, so who cares...

Seriously I'm still waiting for an explanation...

@Panzerjäger:
I mentioned SCs 'cause combined with a Krad they work perfectly well and since the Krad has far superior speed compared to the recon squad they can be used together to hunt down snipers.

Countersnipe does only work if the enemy sniper retreats near your recon squad (luck dependent), otherwise you'll never hit him.

Panzer Jager

1st Jul 08, 4:50 AM

Countersnipe does only work if the enemy sniper retreats near your recon squad (luck dependent), otherwise you'll never hit him.

Not necesarily.

It all depends on the level of skill the Wehr player has.
His Sniper moves slower in camo than your Recon squad, although he could send the Sniper and kite you into an MG.

Now, personally I think it would be good if they applied a modifier when Ketten Cloak is activated that reduces the spotting range back down to 20.
The 30 range could still work for uncloaked Ketten.
This should be possible engine-wise; I've modded this game before and know it's capabilities.

Maniac

1st Jul 08, 4:53 AM

I'd like to add a point about 2v2.

Like the Axis-players can work together to hunt down a sniper the US-player can get support by his british or american teammate to protect it, especially Brits can stop vehicles hunting a US-sniper easily, for example with a bren-squad.

I dont mind that change, also I didnt have a problem with the Ketten before, and I play PE often. US-snipers are annoying but defo not unbalanced vs PE in my view.

sporty

1st Jul 08, 4:55 AM

It's not the usual, but the subject of this thread doesn't revolve around the Brits, even if they are your favourite faction.

Why shouldn't the Kettenkrad have better detection than bikes/jeeps? It can cap, but isn't armed. It has a larger detection radius, but a lower sight radius. It suffers from horrible pathing, but is able to spot mines.
PE can't use regular vehicles (like the SCOUT car) thanks to the (rightfully) reduced vehicle detection. PGs could scout, but this is the unit that's most vulnerable to snipers. A Vampire can detect, but keeping it close to your troops for detection duty prevents it from doing its primary job, siphoning enemy ressources.

The only unit left is the Kettenkrad, exceptionally vulnerable thanks to its low hp and inferior armour and critical type. The improved detection radius is still notably shorter than the range of a sniper. Using an uncloaked Ketten to reveal a sniper gives your Wehrmacht ally a short moment to kill him, but will cost you a Kettenkrad if there's any support around. If there isn't, then a simple bike can do the job alone as well.
Now for the cloaked Luftwaffe Kettenkrad, this is a bit problematic. The full radius of 30 is probably too much, half that range is theoretically better. I wouldn't cut it too much, as a suddenly revealed sniper (or PAK, for Wehrmacht) usually causes players to search the nearby area, possibly resulting in a dead Ketten... again.

PeterPeterson1

1st Jul 08, 5:10 AM

The full radius of 30 is probably too much, half that range is theoretically better. I wouldn't cut it too much, as a suddenly revealed sniper (or PAK, for Wehrmacht) usually causes players to search the nearby area, possibly resulting in a dead Ketten... again. Half the range? then it is 15? that is less as before the buff!Disable the detection while cloaked? Then you disable a doctrinspecific ability to fullfill another? thats not a good choice. Deacrease detection range while cloaked to 25... hmm maybe possible but lets play some more games to test it.

TeaSeeOh

1st Jul 08, 6:32 AM

Oh wow, I haven't really seen the new detection radius in play before, but now that I look at it, it may be a bit much. While cloaked it shouldn't be able to detect that far.

I really would have preferred if Relic would have buffed the Scout Car to be PE's recon vehicle, since it is named SCOUT Car. But it is OF after all: logic stops here.

Tseng_Fox

1st Jul 08, 8:02 AM

Why not remove the cloak detection from the cloaked Ketten all-together, doesn't make sense, and it goes against everything CoH believes in!

Because a Snipers are overpowered versus Panzer Elite and that Panzer Elite havent been given a dedicated anti-sniper unit.

My solution:

Take the detection from the kettenkrad and give it to the scout car. Perhaps half it too.

BoDyBaG2224

1st Jul 08, 8:28 AM

Snipers are now OP because there is no dedicated anti-sniper unit?

Hell using that logic half the game is OP/UP.

Anyway, the range is too long, that is not an opinion it is a fact. Reduce the range to maybe 20 (2 more then jeep/bike). That way it isn't as large as it is now, and the ketten could still be used to de-cloak snipers.

Panzer Jager

1st Jul 08, 8:29 AM

Snipers are now OP because there is no dedicated anti-sniper unit?

What would you say if there was no Pak38 for facing M8s?

Tseng_Fox

1st Jul 08, 8:40 AM

Think of it this way. One sniper shot and your squad looses 33% effectiveness in combat. A US player who supports his sniper and moves it after every other shot will be able to beat any assualt made on him by the PE player unless its a big blob.

It destroys any attempt at combined arms. I can't use infantry versus that so I'm forced to spam armoured cars/panzer IV ISs to combat them.

Seriously. Try playing Panzer Elite versus a good player with a pair of snipers.

BoDyBaG2224

1st Jul 08, 8:44 AM

A 1v1 with 2 snipers, so I'm going to assume a WSC start. Let's see here we build PGs, go logistik, out-cap, then we find the 2 snipers damn, send out SC's to go cap now. Assume the person is going to field Rangers go for P4 beat down the rangers with a P4 and some supporting grens, run into base and base rape.

Painmuffin

1st Jul 08, 8:44 AM

I'm going to have to disagree with maniac here. Yet again we see another change intended to help the PE 1v1. This is fine, an I think it is pretty much a balanced thing in 1v1. However, once you add the ketten detection radius into the 2v2 equation, things start to get a little screwy.

Countersniping is a dangerous mechanic to mess with. Granted, the WM sniper is inferior in many ways to the US sniper. However, something like this new Kettenkrad (with performance enhancing substances) cannot be balanced in anyway shape or form. I'm sorry everyone, something like this is not balanced. Jeeps and bikes are inherently fragile and limited in their roles. The Ketten has shitty health and no firepower. In all honesty what are the downfalls of a cloaked ketten? The little bugger is impossible to detect and can move at a very fast speed while cloaked. Sure it has crap health, but when are you going to get the chance to shoot at it.

Imbalanced.

Tseng_Fox

1st Jul 08, 8:48 AM

But how can it be changed without messing up 1vs1 and making PE weak versus snipers again? I'm sure there must be a way to balance it in 1vs1 and 2vs2.

Maybe look to another PE unit for detection? This way it takes alittle longer at least and has less detection, but a weapon to make up for it.

A 1v1 with 2 snipers, so I'm going to assume a WSC start. Let's see here we build PGs, go logistik, out-cap, then we find the 2 snipers damn, send out SC's to go cap now. Assume the person is going to field Rangers go for P4 beat down the rangers with a P4 and some supporting grens, run into base and base rape.

Thats good and works if youve got enough fuel. But its risky. You have little field presence since there will be no HTs out since you need the fuel for the Panzer IV IS. If he goes Airborne he'll have a much better chance of countering it.

Harry

1st Jul 08, 9:24 AM

look at the range of the detection, jeeps suck - the only purpose a jeep serves is path blocking a ket but and finding snipers. but look at this damn thing - its insane.

Tseng_Fox

1st Jul 08, 9:34 AM

look at the range of the detection, jeeps suck - the only purpose a jeep serves is path blocking a ket but and finding snipers. but look at this damn thing - its insane.

I disagree with the range too.

I wanted a dedicated anti-sniper unit like the jeep/bike for PE. This would mean it could have a normal range and snipers would still be useful, but means the PE infantry won't get utter raped by allied snipers.

A range decrease for the kettenkrad in exchange for a buff in Scout Car detection range? sound fair?

barcibus

1st Jul 08, 9:37 AM

Many posts are asking for the Ketten to be made less effective than it is now (in the live game) at spotting cloaked. PE have problems facing (good) Snipers right now and, as far as I know, the US don't currently have problems facing cloaked Ketten+Sniper in 2v2 games, so it's ridiculous to want to nerf the Ketten. For emphasis: I'm talking about the Ketten as it is in the live version of the game.

For the sake of argument, lets just say that a cloaked Ketten with 30m detect + Wher Sniper will indeed totally dominate a US Sniper in team games. Why can't the US player use other units? Is the Sniper a must-have unit?
I mean, if the US player has a bunch of Rangers and AT guns, the PE player shouldn't be fielding Marders. Wouldn't the soon-to-be-new-and-improved Armor Company be a better choice if your enemy is fielding cloaked Kettens+Snipers?

Demonic Spoon

1st Jul 08, 9:38 AM

Range is fine. Being able to do so while cloaked is not.

BoDyBaG2224

1st Jul 08, 9:47 AM

A full screenlength (or there about) is fine? Eh, I guess I could live with that, as long as it loses it when it cloakes.

barcibus

1st Jul 08, 9:51 AM

A full screenlength (or there about) is fine? Eh, I guess I could live with that, as long as it loses it when it cloakes.
If 30m means the Ketten is detecting at nearly a screenlength, then that means that a Sniper, with weapon range of 50m can shoot almost 2 screenlengths away.

Hmm.

EDIT: Oh yeah, it also means that the AT gun, range 60, would be able to 1-shot that Ketten from 2 screens away. Wow.

Tseng_Fox

1st Jul 08, 9:54 AM

Kettenkrad dies pretty easily without cloak so it should be fine with the detection without cloaking. The unit needs something to make it worth fielding more than once (as it will no doubt die at some point)

Good micro with a kettenkrad is tricky. Its pathing is atrocious. I always thought cloaking made up for all its disadvantages.

Perhaps someone could test out the new range in both 1vs1 and 2vs2 to see evidence of its effect?

Pershing720

1st Jul 08, 9:56 AM

For the sake of argument, lets just say that a cloaked Ketten with 30m detect + Wher Sniper will indeed totally dominate a US Sniper in team games. Why can't the US player use other units? Is the Sniper a must-have unit?

If your going WSC the sniper IS a must-have unit.

barcibus

1st Jul 08, 10:05 AM

Good micro with a kettenkrad is tricky. Its pathing is atrocious. I always thought cloaking made up for all its disadvantages.
Cloaking does make up for all its disadvantages. Without cloak, even with 30m detect, it will still die far too easily and end up being a MP drain until you just give it up.

I don't think 30m detect plus cloaking is automatically imbalanced. Have to wait and see how it plays out. However if it does turn out to be too powerful, there would have to be something else done to offset how absurdly easy they are to kill. Even disregarding the issue of detecting cloaked units, just plain spotting with a cloaked Ketten is harder than it should be... and is impossible without cloak.

Btw I'd love to test this in beta, but there never seem to be any automatch games available, and the one or two lobby games are usually 4v4. I tried testing it in a skirmish vs the computer, but it was so bad I had to let it take back VPs so the match wouldn't end so soon.

sgb

1st Jul 08, 10:05 AM

The problem is, the ketten will be inadequate as a detector once again if it returns to normal. That's fine, it shouldn't be a Protoss probe, but something else has to be improved. Giving the Scout Car jeep/bike detection radius would be the solution here I think

barcibus

1st Jul 08, 10:06 AM

If your going WSC the sniper IS a must-have unit.
How about going with RAX? Is that just not possible?

Pershing720

1st Jul 08, 10:11 AM

RAX?

barcibus

1st Jul 08, 10:13 AM

RAX?
Barracks.

Pershing720

1st Jul 08, 10:17 AM

My point is that if your going for a WSC start snipers are invaluable to have. They are great spotters, have great sight, are great support units, and put some fear in your opponent/s.

Weavern

1st Jul 08, 10:20 AM

barcibus

1st Jul 08, 10:23 AM

Believe me, I know how good Snipers are because I'm usually on the receiving end. But the point of my original question was to say that there are other options than Snipers, and so saying that the Ketten's buff was overpowered because of how it works with a Where Sniper could be too narrow of an argument. There are other ways of dealing with the combo. PE don't have countersnipe (ATHT? please) and have to deal with snipers all the time.

So the question really was about whether or not you have to have a sniper, not whether you should make a sniper if you make a WSC.

Tseng_Fox

1st Jul 08, 10:33 AM

Yes PE need something to help with snipers; giving it to the ketten is a logical choice; but it creates far too much issue in larger games. If you really want to have a unit to detect snipers buff the funkwagon some more

I dunno, its not really as mobile as a Jeep/Scout Car/Bike nor does it have a weapon. Besides, dosent it have to be locked down to get its detection range?

Its quite costly too.

However Scout Car would be better. At least it'll be able to do what its tooltip says.

Pershing720

1st Jul 08, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted By Demonic Spoon.
Range is fine. Being able to do so while cloaked is not.

I agree with this.

That doesn't make sense though. If your going for RAX then your going to make riflemen. If your going for a WSC then your most definitely going to make at least one sniper (for the reasons I mentioned above). Wish I could argue more but I gotta work!

barcibus

1st Jul 08, 10:42 AM

Look; rendering something unuseable because of a change is not a solution. If the change to the ketten makes snipers virtually unuseable then that should not be done.

Yes PE need something to help with snipers; giving it to the ketten is a logical choice; but it creates far too much issue in larger games. If you really want to have a unit to detect snipers buff the funkwagon some more :p
First of all, I really doubt that ketten+sniper combo would make snipers unuseable. It would definitely mean they couldn't use them like they're used to, but that doesn't mean unuseable. And even if snipers became too much of a liability in 2v2, they would still definitely be useful in 1v1. So no matter what, the change wouldn't make the unit unuseable.
A similar case can be made of the funkwagen you mentioned. It's pretty much useless in 1v1, tho can be useful in 2v2.

Besides, units are frequently made "unuseable" depending on what your opponent is fielding. You're simply not able to use Marders if your US opponent is putting out only AT guns and infantry: the Marder would be useless. Sure, if the US had decided to put out some Shermans, or Pershing, you'd definitely want some Marders, but otherwise it is useless.
Same thing with Snipers. There's no reason Snipers should be ALWAYS useful to field. There should be a way to line up a defense vs them just as for any other unit (except artillery).

Note: the Marders are always useful for something; there are always buildings to kill. But the Marders will never be able to get past AT guns + Rangers/Paras. Same with the Sniper. There is always spotting to be done, and there always infantry (I've yet to see successful PE that go all armor, even in 2v2).

ServerToni

1st Jul 08, 10:42 AM

Jeeps and MotorBikes have a less detection radius because they have the ability to kill a sniper. Kettenkrads don't have the ability. So it't just fair.
Don't compare Jeeps and Bikes witzh Kettenkrads. Kettenkrads are more passive.

Or how about buffing the Pershing on a level of the KT, cause you know it's doctrine specific....
You can't compare the terror-doctrine with the AC company. And please don't flame this thread.

Thinking42Man

1st Jul 08, 10:48 AM

Jeeps and MotorBikes have a less detection radius because they have the ability to kill a sniper. Kettenkrads don't have the ability. So it't just fair.
Don't compare Jeeps and Bikes witzh Kettenkrads. Kettenkrads are more passive.

You can't compare the terror-doctrine with the AC company. And please don't flame this thread.

Kettenkrads have the ability to cost less, cap out of the gate, and get one of three useful abilities without even spending a single CP. I'd say that's a pretty big advantage, mitigating the lack of firepower entirely.

barcibus

1st Jul 08, 10:53 AM

Kettenkrads have the ability to cost less, cap out of the gate, and get one of three useful abilities without even spending a single CP. I'd say that's a pretty big advantage, mitigating the lack of firepower entirely.
You forgot to mention their ability to die easily, horrible pathing, and drastically less sight radius (they have 35m, the Jeep has 55m). I'd say the Ketten is pretty different from the Jeep. The sight radius is one of the biggest problems imo.

Thinking42Man

1st Jul 08, 11:09 AM

I would reccomend an increase of all PGren and AG/TB squad's sight radius of 2-3 with the purchase of Field Craft. I do not think the ketten itself needs any corresponding buff to mitigate the reduction of its cloaked sniper detection radius which it has coming to it.

barcibus

1st Jul 08, 11:16 AM

I do not think the ketten itself needs any corresponding nerf to mitigate the reduction of its cloaked sniper detection radius which it has coming to it.
Umm.

What?

Thinking42Man

1st Jul 08, 11:50 AM

Sorry, wrote nerf, meant buff.

Tseng_Fox

1st Jul 08, 11:55 AM

Kettenkrads have the ability to cost less, cap out of the gate, and get one of three useful abilities without even spending a single CP. I'd say that's a pretty big advantage, mitigating the lack of firepower entirely.

Then up the cost of the Kettenkrad OR give its detection (although slightly reduced) to the Scout Car. Booby Trap ability isnt really good. Repair and Cloak is useful though.

roflmao

1st Jul 08, 11:58 AM

I lost a game due to this. It was pretty annoying, I think it should go back to 20m but don't have a very strong personal opinion.

barcibus

1st Jul 08, 12:08 PM

I lost a game due to this. It was pretty annoying, I think it should go back to 20m but don't have a very strong personal opinion.
If you see the strat again, is there anything you can do?

Catastrofizum

1st Jul 08, 5:14 PM

Iaguz's beloved US has a balance issue. Urgent action required! Nah, seriously this is a problem, but the whole US sniper/PE thing has long been a problem in team games - literally the US sniper alone, putting double PE at a significant disadvantage. When you team up Wher/Luft, the shoe is on the other foot - although at least US will have counter to a problem Wehr sniper! It's the funky ketten thing that is causing this. Remove it as the front line PE tool against snipers, bring on the SC.

LawrenceofArabi

1st Jul 08, 7:03 PM

Range is fine. Being able to do so while cloaked is not.

Agreed, the virtual impunity of both the cloak and a very forgiving range is just too much. While snipers against PE are a real balance issue, this almost invalidates snipers in general. I also think its unfortunate that this tips the PE doctrinal balance even more in the favor of luftwaffe. Uncloaked its fine, theres a fragile little ketten rolling around and I can see/shoot it, no big deal.

However, I personally agree with Tseng that the Scout car would make a more logical and effective counter. Give the SC a detection a slightly less than the jeep bike (say 15 or 16 compared to the 18 of the jeep/bike), but to make up for its higher offensive ability and 360 turret. It would function just like the jeep/bike do. I also like that it would make Logistik more useful, offering something that the Kampfgruppe doesn't offer.

CroatNotBorat

1st Jul 08, 10:19 PM

Scout cars are basically twice as durable as bikes. For 40 manpower more, they can cap, reverse, do more damage, transform themselves into self-defending observation posts (if a little ammo is spent)... So once again, no.

They can get cloak detection similar to that of the bike once their hitpoints are halved or manpower cost increased by 100.

Tseng_Fox

1st Jul 08, 11:39 PM

Scout cars are basically twice as durable as bikes. For 40 manpower more, they can cap, reverse, do more damage, transform themselves into self-defending observation posts (if a little ammo is spent)... So once again, no.

Then whats your suggestion? PE need a sniper detector badly and its been decided that the Kettenkrad just dosent cut it.

Catastrofizum

1st Jul 08, 11:48 PM

zzSleeper

2nd Jul 08, 1:36 AM

A 300mp sniper counter....great! If all an army had was the equivalent of the Wehr bike to hunt snipers, they would be very hard up. Oh it can work, but it can also fail very easily. PE has no sniper shot whatsoever(US/Wehr/Brit). If their primary sniper counter was to be modeled on the bike/jeep unit, it would need to be better quite frankly.

Scout cars are 300mp since when?

SCs only do two things well - cap and make OP. Damage-wise they are shite, as they should be. I think you're overrating them a little calling them "self defending OPs". Yeh, they can defend themselves against 1 squad of Engineers really well! If anything more serious than that comes at them it will just be handing over a quick 12exp. Their best defence is to run, plain and simple, which is their greatest asset as an OP.

Wow, thats just a load of bull right there. Scout cars are more durable than jeeps, do as much damage as bikes(which do quite good damage), plus it can cap.

A scoutcar with the OP upgrade can defend itself from a squad of riflemen.

I still think they make the perfect candidate as is for a sniper counter. They themselves can be countered by MG AP rounds. Their speed is not as good as the bike. I think their detection radius should not be as good either. Then I think you have a fair deal.

Are you seriously suggesting US should have to use AP rounds to take down scout cars? If scout cars become a sniper counter, then they need to lose about half its hp and damage.

Tseng_Fox

2nd Jul 08, 1:59 AM

In which case, I ask again, if Scout Cars would be OP as detectors, then what else could become one?

Scout cars are 300mp since when?

He was taking about Croat's biased suggestion of increasing the price of the Scout Car to 320 manpower. (Scout Car is already 220 manpower and 25 munitions for OP.)

Cyberbob

2nd Jul 08, 2:12 AM

I could see an increase to something like 300 manpower (perhaps a little less) as long as the only change to the unit was its detection radius being improved.

I'd rather its stats be nerfed and the cost stay roughly the same, however.

CroatNotBorat

2nd Jul 08, 2:13 AM

SCs only do two things well - cap and make OP. Damage-wise they are shite, as they should be. I think you're overrating them a little calling them "self defending OPs".
Repeat after me: "scout cars deal more damage than infantry halftracks, and they have a turret that rotates". Go look it up or calculate yourself.

When transformed into an observation post (anywhere in the sector, possibly even covered by base defences), they get a 1.5x increase in health, upping it to 390 hitpoints, and a 15x increase in suppression, which is very close to that of the Quad.

Ballist1x

2nd Jul 08, 2:15 AM

Scout cars are basically twice as durable as bikes. For 40 manpower more, they can cap, reverse, do more damage, transform themselves into self-defending observation posts (if a little ammo is spent)... So once again, no.

220mp compared to the jeep is fantastic value for money. Give it camo detection and it must be considered OP vs the Jeep. Make it more expensive OR

Buff the jeep

i have about 3 threads on buffing the jeep.

Tseng_Fox

2nd Jul 08, 2:20 AM

Jeep dosent need buffs. It would make riflespam too strong with the new vet changes and the OP sniper/airborne combo.

I could agree to Scout Car costing 280 manpower though.

Repeat after me: "scout cars deal more damage than infantry halftracks, and they have a turret that rotates". Go look it up or calculate yourself.

When transformed into an observation post (anywhere in the sector, possibly even covered by base defences), they get a 1.5x increase in health, upping it to 390 hitpoints, and a 15x increase in suppression, which is very close to that of the Quad.

Thats all good and well when you consider what the rest of Logisitik has. Your basically relying on Scout Cars and Panzer Grenaiders. If you went Logisitik start, then theres no early infantry HT or shrecks.

I've noticed alot of American players haven't given suggestions for Panzer Elite to have a sniper counter (talking about the GR debate on its own forum). Why? If its imbalanced for the Kettenkrad to have 30m detection radius, then by that logic surely its OP to have US snipers being so effective versus an army with very small squads and no true hard counter to it.

CroatNotBorat

2nd Jul 08, 3:19 AM

Practice your über micro and kill the sniper with an AT-HT. 100% accuracy guaranteed, unlike snipers shooting other snipers.

Quercus

2nd Jul 08, 3:19 AM

That is (and always has been) one argument against having very small squad sizes - the impact of one-shot-kill weaponry, such as grenades, snipers, AT guns and tank main guns. Wehrmacht have always lost out because of the smaller squad sizes and PE are even worse until they get the upgrade.

I guess the solution should be that the Ketten detection gets halved when it is cloaked.

I would also like to take the opportunity to point out that the British have the worst sniper detection in the game and are the only faction that have to pay munitions to snipe someone. 25 munitions is a big hit at the start of the game when so much they deploy requires munitions (Infantry section upgrades, sapper upgrades ... )

sporty

2nd Jul 08, 3:49 AM

Why can no CoH discussion take place without the Glider Of Brit Derailment busting in with a load "swoooosh", crushing the carefully constructed discussion? CoH balance and discussion in one sentence... hehehe

Taking the detection platform into account, PE have worse sniper detection. I see your "Luftwaffe Ketten cloak!" and raise you a "Commando Triangulation!".
They also can't snipe without paying MUN. 25 MUN is considerably less when you receive this amount at the start of the game for free.

With that out of the way, wasn't the consensus "detection radius of 30 okay, detection radius of 30 while cloaked not okay"? Not a bad result for such a thread :)

Tseng_Fox

2nd Jul 08, 4:03 AM

Practice your über micro and kill the sniper with an AT-HT. 100% accuracy guaranteed, unlike snipers shooting other snipers.

Yeah and pay 40 munitions for Focused Firing just to counter snipers which are more deadly versus PanzerElite than any other faction while Americans can just countersnipe other snipers which come at Tier 1 for both US/Wehrmacht.

AT-HT is tier 4 and will get Uber-killed by Airborne.

And in case of the inevitable "Durr... use veichlez!1one11!1!" comments, everyone knows that playing as PE, a totally veichle focused army just does not work considering the american metagame relys on Airborne now.

I would also like to take the opportunity to point out that the British have the worst sniper detection in the game and are the only faction that have to pay munitions to snipe someone. 25 munitions is a big hit at the start of the game when so much they deploy requires munitions (Infantry section upgrades, sapper upgrades ... )

They also have larger squad sizes than Panzer Elite so arent quite as effected as badly. They can get a fix after the game-breaking US/PE sniper matchup is fixed.

Not to mention that PE have to wait till tier 4 for their Sniper, the AT-HT (I mean, what the hell? an Anti-tank unit as the sniper?) and it also requires munitions to be accurate.

It should either be like this:

1) Detection range stays at 30m when uncloaked. This makes up for the frailty of the Kettenkrad and its lack of weapons. Repair/Booby Traps do not make up for it. It is very very very easy to kill when uncloaked so it will balance out. When cloaked its detection should be, say 5-10m. This is fair because it will still require combined arms to kill the sniper since the idiot that designed Panzer Elite didnt give them an anti-sniper unit when its clear they really need one.

2) Detection of 30m removed when cloaked/uncloaked. Instead, range of Scout Car boosted by 5-10 to provide a Jeep-like unit that becomes slightly stronger than Jeeps/Bikes to make up for the lack of a tier 1 sniper (the only army that dosent have a tier 1 sniper.)

It needs a fix like this or automatch will be unbalanced in favour of the US.

zzSleeper

2nd Jul 08, 4:46 AM

No, even with 3 spotting radius M8s and bren carriers and inf HTs/scout cars were utterly owning snipers. You dont need 30 detection radius to hunt down snipers, three is enough when you're using things as fast as light vehicles.

The day relic nerfed vehicle detection radius back to 0m from 3m is the day snipers became useful again.

PeterPeterson1

2nd Jul 08, 5:52 AM

If i play us against pe i have to limit my unit pool in the way the pe player decides his doctrine. If i watch him going tank hunters i build less tanks or no tanks. Now if iwatch him going luftwaffe i build less or no sniper. this isn't as hard to play.

more then 6 month ago i askedfor some 2v2 changes and everybody screamed that 2v2 balance isn't important. If a wehr snpier is supported by a luftwaffe kettenkrad it is the exact same situation. In 1v1 i have no problems with the cloaked ketten. I only play a non sniper tactic.

Quercus

2nd Jul 08, 6:12 AM

Sporty - you can't compare Commando triangulation because (a) it is doctrine specific, (b) it requires careful very placement to be effective and can be destroyed and (c) it doesn't reveal cloaked units specifically nearby, it reveals all units on the mini-map, cloaked or not, so you have to identify that the dot in fact relates to a cloaked unit.

Tseng-Fox: Yes they have larger squad sizes so aren't taken out as quickly as PE squads, but because of the poor detection ability the sniper is more likely to be able to cloak and escape.
But I agree, the priority is to fix the American/PE issue.

PeterPeterson1

2nd Jul 08, 7:17 AM

Sporty - you can't compare Commando triangulation because (a) it is doctrine specific, (b) it requires careful very placement to be effective and can be destroyed and (c) it doesn't reveal cloaked units specifically nearby, it reveals all units on the mini-map, cloaked or not, so you have to identify that the dot in fact relates to a cloaked unit.

(a) cloaked ketten is doctrine specific

(b) thats the same + idiotic pathfinding

(c) i hoped vampire has this ability but a cloaked sniped couldn't be detectet on the minimap!

roflmao

2nd Jul 08, 7:51 AM

If you see the strat again, is there anything you can do?
Not really, because basically the descision to go WSC-RAX combo happens in the very first 5 seconds of the game, way before I can make any choice about what units to build depending on what the enemy has. It's a gamble, if I have a WSC start and encounter cloaked kettens spotting all my stuff at 30m, even if my ally supported me with a jeep, the range on the jeep is about half of the one of a ketten, so the jeep would just get annihalated by other units before it could reach the enemy ketten, while the PE player can go around just revealing all my snipers and screwing me up big time. Problem is cloaked ketten's detecting mainly, without cloak its not near as big of a problem.

For the sake of argument, lets just say that a cloaked Ketten with 30m detect + Wher Sniper will indeed totally dominate a US Sniper in team games. Why can't the US player use other units? Is the Sniper a must-have unit?

Look above, as I said, getting a Sniper is really a early-desicion, and the problem is presicely because if one of the Amer players goes WSC he won't have any other units to choose from, 30cals would just get sniped by the kickass axis sniper and mortars too. And I mean, you can "backtech" and build a Barracks, but losing 340 MP because of counter-snipe + ketten and then losing a additional 160MP and 15 fuel, forcing one of your engie units to be dedicated to building for a short time when it should be capping is NOT a situation you want to be in as a American player. Also the Sniper kinda is a must-have unit against PE, obviously because of the PGren squad size.

The reason I lost the game was because of excellent teamwork by my opponents, great movment/placment of MG42's with a ketten+sniper preventing US snipers/mortars from clearing the MG42 lockdowns, along with blobs of PGrens slaughtering rifles and capping everything is a very effective strategy. That game was truly awesome :).

Skyline Pete

2nd Jul 08, 7:58 AM

Can anyone here lay out one reason why PE needs a highly mobile detection unit with a detection range that's nearly the sight range of normal units?

Because as mentioned earlier PE's squad sizes are significantly smaller than British squads. The Brits get a chance to get their squad out of there even if facing 2 Wher snipers.

ARMYguy

2nd Jul 08, 8:03 AM

It's a gamble

I thought this is the point of the game... that strats are a gamble, kind of like vCoh where many things were a gamble.

I dont even recall anyone even saying anything about the 30m sight thing until recently, and the change as been in there for a bunch of versions. I guess someone lost a game and got angry.

I much would have rather had the scout car be the work horse for sniper duty, but that only works when the sniper is retreating and is uncloaked. Perhaps we can change something in logistiks, balance that out better than currently, and get a better anti sniper out of it for pe, because even with this 30m thing, theres still large issues for pe, and as far as team work, well whats the allied teammate doing to support his ally at the same time?

roflmao

2nd Jul 08, 8:07 AM

Yeah, but its stupid to take gamble's you cannot recover from by outplaying your opponent. I'm all for gamble's, as long as I can adapt in some way or other to limp my way through the battle if I end up losing the gamble. Going fast-tanks as Americans is always a gamble, if I take the gamble and find myself in desperate need for AT, I can always get stickies, or choose my company right when I need it and get paradroppable AT guns or RRs for example, it's far from ideal, but recovery is deff possible.

If you go WSC and decide to get a sniper early on, and simply cannot use it, it's very hard to recover from a loss like that.

Tseng_Fox

2nd Jul 08, 8:11 AM

The day relic nerfed vehicle detection radius back to 0m from 3m is the day snipers became useful again.

It became the day US snipers had a field day versus Panzer Elite when they clearly shouldnt.

How can US players justify the power a well-used Sniper has versus PE?

roflmao

2nd Jul 08, 8:18 AM

Tseng_Fox

2nd Jul 08, 8:36 AM

Tseng, well-used is the key word here. Anything well-used is powerful, how can PE justify a well-microed Inf HT against rifle-blobs? Because you need to use it well for it to be effective. Any small screw-up with snipers results in almost instant-death, and once they uncloak to fire its not that hard to chase them down with PGrens or a early-halftrack. So yeah a sniper is extremely powerful early on, but as I said also, you take a enourmous gamble when you build one, which can cost you the game if you excecute your strat badly.

Theres a difference between amazing combined arms and simply moving the Sniper slightly.

I could try and use all the combined arms I want but it will never succed versus this Sniper/Airborne/MG combo.

I'm pushed towards using the Panzer IV rush simply because I can't use infantry at all. They cloak so fast and can't be detected by veichles much unless they are right on top of them (which means they are dead versus RR airborne)

Its sad for both PE and US since the only way to stand a chance against this is to OP a couple of fuels and send waves of Panzer IV IS tanks into his base and lock down.

barcibus

2nd Jul 08, 9:12 AM

Many of the people calling for a nerf on 30m Ketten detection range seem to feel that it isn't a problem on an uncloaked Ketten. Naturally... an uncloaked Ketten isn't going to be around long enough to do any serious decloaking.
That's a problem.
The 30m detection range was implemented to fix a long standing problem. Suggestions that undo that fix aren't going to help. Scout Cars aren't the solution... they don't have a long lifespan after early game.

The US have plenty of units that can move more quickly than a cloaked Ketten and have plenty of men in the squad to withstand some sniper fire while doing the hunt.
Also, if you are watching your sniper (as of course you should be when he's near or behind enemy lines) you'll immediately know when there's a nearby Ketten because you'll be decloaked; hit the retreat button and advance the horde of Rangers/Paras.

I'm sure there'll be more elegant/efficient strats developed.

Either way, I think its best to leave the 30m cloaked Ketten in the game long enough to see if US can find work-arounds in 2v2s.

Dymo

2nd Jul 08, 9:43 AM

PE don't have a Sniper T1.
Ketten doesn't have a gun, ever.
At 20m detection, cloaked or not, no one said BOO.
A cloaked Ketten is realllly sloooow.
If Luff is selected, you will not face Jadg's, Hetzer's, Hummel's or Teller's.

Unless the sniper killing unit is right beside the Ketten when the reveal happens, who is going to kill your sniper? Most units have only 35 sight ranges themselves so will need be nearly direct escorts for the "cloaked" ketten to do the actual killing. Doesn't that kinda make the "cloaked" bit sorta moot.

A revealed sniper is not a dead sniper by any stretch. If you liked placing a sniper somewhere and forgetting about him... those days are gone. Welcome the new age of "LOOKING AFTER ALL YOUR SHITE"

Tseng_Fox

2nd Jul 08, 9:47 AM

If Luff is selected, you will not face Jadg's, Hetzer's, Hummel's or Teller's.

I'd go on to say that the doctrine offers little else apart from cloaked Kettenkrads and Fallshrimjaeger before the beta. Wirbelwind is a little better but too situational.

Perhaps some suggestions from the American players who don't like the new range would help to balance it for the next patch with a fair fix for both armies?

Pershing720

2nd Jul 08, 10:03 AM

Why not leave the 30m detection for Scorched and Tank doctrines. But lower the detection for Luftwaffes cloaked ketten.

PeterPeterson1

2nd Jul 08, 10:25 AM

Why not leave the 30 m for all kettens, because reducing the detection of luftwaffes ketten will punish the kettenkrad for its doctrine specific ability.

zzSleeper

2nd Jul 08, 5:07 PM

Theres a difference between amazing combined arms and simply moving the Sniper slightly.

I could try and use all the combined arms I want but it will never succed versus this Sniper/Airborne/MG combo.

I'm pushed towards using the Panzer IV rush simply because I can't use infantry at all. They cloak so fast and can't be detected by veichles much unless they are right on top of them (which means they are dead versus RR airborne)

Its sad for both PE and US since the only way to stand a chance against this is to OP a couple of fuels and send waves of Panzer IV IS tanks into his base and lock down.

You obviously have never tried to micro snipers against a good PE player.

Its NOT nearly as easy as you describe, snipers are one of the most micro intensive units in the game, the mere fact that you think its as easy as "moving it slightly" shows you've never tried snipers against a GOOD player.

You can't use infantry at all? Are you freaking kidding me? Do you see hordes of snipers running around wrecking havoc on the 1v1 ladder? WSC is extremely risky due to the super powerful inf-HT and ACs.

D'yer Mak'er

2nd Jul 08, 6:25 PM

Why not leave the 30 m for all kettens, because reducing the detection of luftwaffes ketten will punish the kettenkrad for its doctrine specific ability.

Why not? Did you read ANYTHING posted in this or the GR.org thread?

And to the comment about sniper's being OP versus PE in 1v1: Going WSC vs PE is an incredibly ballsy move and one that requires ridiculously good micro. It has terrible capping power as he basically must rely on engineers until he gets AB or gets a motorpool + raid. I would like to see you try it.

Thinking42Man

2nd Jul 08, 10:04 PM

Simple fix here: Reduce base detection to 25, add a modifier reducing it to 12-15 with cloak activated, which takes three to five seconds to expire once the cloak ability is deactivated, or in other words, it takes three to five seconds after uncloaking to regain the longer 25m detection range.

roflmao

3rd Jul 08, 8:02 AM

I could try and use all the combined arms I want but it will never succed versus this Sniper/Airborne/MG combo.p

Wait, isn't Sniper/Airborne/MG combo the same thing as using combined arms? Quite a bit of MP for almost purely dedicated anti-infantry, sure the airborne squad could be RRed but 1 RR'ed squad without other AT as backup is going to be laughed at by any tank, especially a IST as you mentioned.

How about a Inf-ht/PGren/(Cloaked)Ketten combo? even if a RR squad hits the infantry halftrack twice it isn't going to kill it, ungarisson units with MP40's, and just mop up the whole area, use ketten to reveal sniper, then just repair your halftrack with Pgrens. Requires some micro so that your ht won't die, but should work ^^. Reason I make it sound so easy is because out of the combo you listed two of the units are support weapons, if you are able to get up at close range with assault units (pgrens) you won't have any trouble dominating that specific skirmish.

Tseng_Fox

3rd Jul 08, 8:37 AM

How about a Inf-ht/PGren/(Cloaked)Ketten combo? even if a RR squad hits the infantry halftrack twice it isn't going to kill it, ungarisson units with MP40's, and just mop up the whole area, use ketten to reveal sniper, then just repair your halftrack with Pgrens. Requires some micro so that your ht won't die, but should work ^^. Reason I make it sound so easy is because out of the combo you listed two of the units are support weapons, if you are able to get up at close range with assault units (pgrens) you won't have any trouble dominating that specific skirmish.

Tried it though. It works on paper but just dosent work in game unless the enemy player is having bad micro.

I'm not arguing it isn't unbeatable, but what I am arguing is that should Snipers have such a powerful effect on PE infantry specifically? This is why I feel there should be something done to either:

1) Give Panzer Elite a tier 1 Sniper unit (most likely not gonna happen)

2) Buff Panzer Elite's detection capabilities. (I'd even let the american player decide what would be fair so as to not be biased.)

I've uploaded quite a few replays of me beating people in the retail trying this strat out. Its clear they only lost because of their lack of micro.

Each time I only won was because I went Logisitik start (Scout Cars pretty much handle a WSC build if the opponent is careless) which allowed me to rush Panzer IV IS tanks.

roflmao

3rd Jul 08, 9:04 AM

Yes snipers should be that effective because PE have a huge upperhand infantry wise very early ingame against US, 7 Pgrens vs 3-4 Rifles early on is a common situation, PE infantry can have shrecks, MP40's for pwnage, get awesome vet, don't cost that much, and can repair and build. By far one of the most versatile infantry units in the game, and the US sniper is pretty mediocre in comparison to the Axis one, it's fire-rate isn't that frequent and tracking a sniper (especially with 30m range kittens) is not that hard at all, Sniper is one hell of a glass cannon so it better perform the way I want it to.

Oh and also don't forget that snipers do absolutely nothing to light vehicles, with can come out extremely early in-game for the PE. If sniper's aren't effective against PE infantry what other PE unit could they be useful against? Sadly the answer is none. PE infantry is the only non-doctrinal unit in the whole faction that Snipers can deal with, all the rest of the PE units are pretty much invulnerable to snipers, so if you nerf the snipers anti-PGren capabilities, you pretty much make the unit entirely useless against PE.

Against Wehr you use it for 3-man HMG squad's, its equally as effective if not more because HMG's cannot chase down Snipers at all, while PGrens can.

Tseng_Fox

3rd Jul 08, 9:16 AM

Then, by that logic, Armoured Car rushing and Panzer IV IS rushing will happen even more since unless you greatly outnumber the enemy with squads, a sniper shot once to a squad reduces its effectiveness by 33% which is huge allowing the Rifle blob to move in, so we'll end up seeing more american players complaining about this being the only tactic they see. I can guess it'll end up with another nerf to the Armoured Car as players say its killing their snipers too quickly.

PE have NO tier 1 sniper and NO way to kill a sniper apart from blobbing/rushing since blobbing takes away the Snipers strength of weakening the majority of squads.

Its pretty unfair to keep all these Panzer Elite nerfs and not take account of the effectiveness these Snipers have. Expecially when the player goes Airborne. People underestimate just how good RRs are versus Armoured Cars in combination with Fire-Up!.

I want the US sniper to be worth its money, but I also want a fair and equal chance to detect it since this army is hit by it the most and light veichles have virtually Nil chances of detecting any snipers, leaving the Kettenkrad which got a fair detection range considering how its weaker than a Wehrmacht bike.

Against Wehr you use it for 3-man HMG squad's, its equally as effective if not more because HMG's cannot chase down Snipers at all, while PGrens can.

Wehrmacht can survive without the HMG or even then they have the Bike which has a fair detection range because of its weapon which can kill snipers and deal great damage to the British.

Theres a difference between a support weapon and an armies Main Infantry.

Perhaps theres a middle ground? things certainly can't stay as they are. Kettenkrad's detection is too strong and Snipers have too much of an effect on the small squad sizes of PE without any hard counter.

roflmao

3rd Jul 08, 9:35 AM

Fair detection range? Kitten has the biggest detection range of any unit in the game, and not by a small margin, we are talking about nearly double the detection range if I understand the figures right. The whole poing of the thread is about snipers dying to kettenrad's and as I said earlier I have lost games to kettens detecting snipers.

PE have NO tier 1 sniper and NO way to kill a sniper apart
The whole argument being made in this thread is the exact opposite, that is that the PE's method of killing snipers is too effective, not vice-versa.

Ketten has more health than a Wehr Bike, but more health, cheaper price, double the range, cloaking (if the doctrine is chosen of course, but that is what we are discussing right?), faster speed (by a very small margin), and having all your infantry units be able to repair it more than makes up for its lack of killing power.

Snipers are 340 manpower, are in a different building than US's mainstream infantry and are slow. By building one early on you are taking a huge gamble, and the sniper is clearly a support weapon. It might reduce the effectivness of a squad by 33%, but that effect gets diluted more and more as more infantry get built, until it gets to the point where the sniper is merely a good support weapon but cannot instantly change the tide of battle.

Kitten's do a superb job at the anti-sniper role, I'm not saying that US snipers are underpowered or anything, but they certainly aren't overpowered. If you want talk about sniper effectivness against infantry squads the British take the cake with 450 manpower 4 man squads (That is effectively more than 110 MP per unit, reinforcment cost is much less but still O.o), I don't see them complaining. Oh and the situation against British is even worse since Wehrmacht snipers have a much faster firing rate than US ones iirc.

ARMYguy

3rd Jul 08, 10:12 AM

If we were talking about merely snipers vs the pe mob, then i might agree with that arugment that it is easy for pe to just chase down the sniper. Problem is, who makes a support center and only makes snipers and no 30s? Every game i play i am getting eaten alive because the sniper hides behind the 30 which can easily destory almost every unit the pe can field minus tanks, thanks to those nice armor piercing rounds. If you try and blob, you get suppressed and sniped more and killed. Want to try a fast vehicle? well you arent going to get much since they will lock down most of the fuel, so that rules out a fast pz4. By the time you get a mortor ht out to deal with the 30s + snipers... hello m8, you lose.

While this senerio depends on the map to a degree, i have played against it and doing it on most of the maps and it makes me sad even when i do it to a pe player because theres nothing they can do against it. (i am assuming some degree of micro with the 30s here, not something you can just click and win doing. good player + good micro of the 30 and sniper is bad news for pe) In 2v2 more can be done because the ally could be wehr thus allowing his own sniper to help, but this is when the issue comes in. What changes could be made to help the one without making the other sway in the other direction?

Tseng_Fox

3rd Jul 08, 10:50 AM

Oh and the situation against British is even worse since Wehrmacht snipers have a much faster firing rate than US ones iirc.

They have much much bigger squads than PE so it dosent really effect them quite as bad.

Kitten's do a superb job at the anti-sniper role

Only because it had its range buffed. It still sucks as a unit with the only worthwhile thing being its special abilities/capping speed and how easy it is to repair it. (But who lets a PE player repair?)

You seem to be mixed up:

The whole argument being made in this thread is the exact opposite, that is that the PE's method of killing snipers is too effective, not vice-versa.

The thread is about PE killing snipers too quick yes, but also acknowledging that without it PE are very hard to cope with it (expecially with the flavour-of-the-month Airborne players).

The whole point of the thread is trying to find a fix to suit both factions.

zzSleeper

3rd Jul 08, 2:51 PM

Then, by that logic, Armoured Car rushing and Panzer IV IS rushing will happen even more since unless you greatly outnumber the enemy with squads, a sniper shot once to a squad reduces its effectiveness by 33% which is huge allowing the Rifle blob to move in, so we'll end up seeing more american players complaining about this being the only tactic they see. I can guess it'll end up with another nerf to the Armoured Car as players say its killing their snipers too quickly.

What rifleblob? If you built snipers you cant have a rifleblob. To build one sniper the PE player can build TWO PG squads for the same cost. US is already heavilly outnumbered early game by PE, 6 PG squads to 4 riflesquads is a very common situation. Now its going to be 6 PG squads for 2 rifle squads and a sniper? And you think the Americans are going to win?

There's a reason no one goes snipers early game, you dont have enough infantry as it is to be blowing manpower on snipers.

Its pretty unfair to keep all these Panzer Elite nerfs and not take account of the effectiveness these Snipers have. Expecially when the player goes Airborne. People underestimate just how good RRs are versus Armoured Cars in combination with Fire-Up!.

Armored cars do fine against airborne, considering how often RRs just phase through them and how fast they are.

Painmuffin

3rd Jul 08, 5:17 PM

Armored cars do fine against airborne, considering how often RRs just phase through them and how fast they are.

The problem with this statement is its simplicity. With the recent changes in the playtest balance beta thing, armored cars are worse off versus infantry armor. They do less damage to troops in green cover and they do less damage to troops in buildings. Now you see, airborne is basically the Hit and Run infantry of CoH. They get "on the move" bonuses, so they are really good at running from green cover to green cover. If you try and flank with your armored cars, it is going to be annihilated in 2 salvos. If you use infantry, then you run into their snipers which decimate everything you have.

The fact of the matter is that I have changed my mindset about the Panzer Elite. They used to be completely over-powered (and some units still are). However, the combination of RR's that own everything PE has (4 microed RR's > PiV) and the US snipers that never miss PanzerGrenadiers basically puts the nail in PE's coffin once and for all. PE is becoming a joke in this game, once the dominant OP faction and now basically the faction that desperately needs support from Wehrmacht in team games.

The buff to kettenkrad will take some time getting used to, and maybe this will stop the madness that is team games. By madness I mean the 3v3 where one US player builds nothing but snipers. I mean nothing at all. Combine this with some sort of MG support or Infantry Section support and you cannot touch, cannot reach, and certainly cannot win any territory the allies want. Rush to a mortar HT, it will be obsolete by Airborne and their RR's.

Snipers are probably the biggest reason why US is OP in teamgames as far as I am concerned. Chances are they will be nerfed versus Soldier Armor in some time, as they basically deal out 45 MP a shot. Theres a reason why KCH take 2-3 shots to go down, and that reason is certainly their effectiveness. They shouldn't be reduced to 66% effectiveness in one shot, so why are PanzerGrenadiers? Well you could argue this until my ears bleed, but that is not what this is about.

The only consolation prize I see for US is to have the ketten's range decreased when it is camouflaged, and maybe give it full speed to console yet another PE nerf.

Riithi

3rd Jul 08, 5:43 PM

I am agreeing with Painmuffin here.
They got hurt everywhere, their anti-tank is a joke with the marder-nerf. And their infantry get's toast by snipers. Sure an AC+cloaked ketten could kill it easily, but that would require the allies not supporting their sniper with some AT.
AT support + mg + sniper = dead PE. And sadly the airborne got at-drops, so they can get support for their snipers anywhere on the map.

Monkeypoop

3rd Jul 08, 6:09 PM

just nerf the luft ketten problem solved.

normal ketten having a range of 30 is fine since one volley from any rifle squad takes it to half health and it cannot kill a sniper by itself unlike a jeep

Thinking42Man

3rd Jul 08, 7:31 PM

AT support + mg + sniper = dead PE

Actually, it equals Mortar HT, which equals three American cornerstone units' hard counter.

demoner

3rd Jul 08, 8:22 PM

ARMYguy

3rd Jul 08, 8:53 PM

yeah.. i wish people would play pe before everyone says that the mortor ht is the answer to everything... it isnt an answer to much when facing a good player. Its either keep it constantly moving so it isnt able to kill anything or risk it being minced pretty easily by the rr's, at gun uber range, etc. I think the wehr/us mortor team is actually more survivable merely cause it cant be sniped by rrs/at guns, and theres always those on the field but not always snipers to shoot the mortor team. Like its already been said, when snipers are mixed with rrs and ats, it becomes stalingrad for the pe.

demoner

3rd Jul 08, 9:06 PM

PE lacks the bare neccessities other factions have in order to fight certain tactics, allied tactics that britain doesn't have to worry about.

2+ cromwells on flank speed that chew through MarderIIIs and make you wonder where the hell is our medium tank to fight this.

ATG + sniper spam that make you wonder why PE's men are so expensive and unable to dodge bullets (in midair!) Sure, you can focus fire down MGs... then spend the next 30 seconds getting hit by sniper shots till you retreat.

Riflespam (especially next patch) that runs up to all your PGs. You gotta wonder why they don't have the better sturmtruppen Kar98ks base to make early game (especially next patch) not such a HT and AC rush/spam.

PE late game is in such disarray and a complete utter mess that they had to give PE the super panther call-in just to try and balance it up.

BTW, I want to state theres nothing scarier in CoH than a vet 3 offensive ACPR rounds panther going against an armored company american player.

zzSleeper

3rd Jul 08, 10:50 PM

Mortar HT gets sniped by ATGs or RRs.

You take a hit from fog of war, get stuck in the firing mortar animation, and die.

Or paratroopers just run up and shoot you... or next patch mortars fire back.

Well gee, I don't know, maybe stick your Mortar HT behind a building or a hedge so it doesn't get sniped by an AT gun? What map are you playing on that has perfectly flat terrain with no obstructions for 70 yards?

If you lose a MHT to RRs you deserve to lose the game.

Tseng_Fox

4th Jul 08, 12:34 AM

If you lose a MHT to RRs you deserve to lose the game.

You seriously think you can prevent a Fire-up'd Airborne squad taking out your Mortar HT with RRs, then running out? M8 support for the Airborne means it's even more difficult to prevent them.

I'd suggest you try playing PE a bit more to see the effect snipers have, that is if you want a balanced game.

zzSleeper

4th Jul 08, 3:40 AM

You seriously think you can prevent a Fire-up'd Airborne squad taking out your Mortar HT with RRs, then running out? M8 support for the Airborne means it's even more difficult to prevent them.

I'd suggest you try playing PE a bit more to see the effect snipers have, that is if you want a balanced game.

Yes I do, I've done it, I do it all the time with wehr halftracks, the mortar HT isnt extra slow or something.

M8? Wow so your opponent has snipers, riflemen, airborne, AT guns, and M8. What kind of magical fairyland do you live in?

One sniper means two less riflesquads, one AT gun is another one less riflesquad, same with M8, etc.

I play PE in 2v2 AT all the time, and I dont see snipers as that big a problem. Perhaps you would like to show me in a friendly game of 1v1?

Ballist1x

4th Jul 08, 3:45 AM

with AB at vet1/2 u can pretty much charge into any situation and finish off any non T4 armour quite easily.

im talking things like Marders, MTHT, P4 (WE) AC's etc...then just retreat the ab for a couple of casulaties...

demoner

4th Jul 08, 3:47 AM

zzSleeper

4th Jul 08, 4:14 AM

It doesn't happen often in 1v1, but it does happen.

It happens often in 2v2

in 2v2+ its a very large issue.

PE has no way to fight a standard battle against ATGs+snipers+mortars+X(probably a greyhound or sherman.)

Wehrmacht can mortar them back, shoot the ATGs with their PaKs, bring in real battle tanks, fight with many less expensive squads.

PE lacks standard options to make this a fair and balanced "combined arms" setup against PE.

Mortar HT, marder, blob of PGs, works fine for me.

Snipers get owned by the mortar(yes they do), AT guns get owned by the mortar, charging airborne get owned by the PGs, I'm not seeing an issue here.

Its like a guy said in another thread, support spam is not a combined arms army, its just support spam. Your standard infantry should always outnumber everything else generally.

Tseng_Fox

4th Jul 08, 4:17 AM

Its like a guy said in another thread, support spam is not a combined arms army, its just support spam. Your standard infantry should always outnumber everything else generally.

It dosent matter if the american player just uses Support weapons. His ally will be sending Infantry Sections to support which are miles better than PanzerGrenadiers in the beginning/middle game. Thats fine, but with sniper support your unlikely to survive to the end game. You'll be outcapped. You may outnumber them, but with MG support the infantry sections can hold out and tech up to cromwells.

American player will even be able to make an Airborne squad easily.

You cannot be arguing for balance, when such a blatant imbalance such as lack of Sniper detection for PE exists and you have no desire to fix it.

Kettenkrad + Wehrmacht Sniper is the best counter for Snipers in 2vs2 and should stay that way unless something is done to give PE detection.

Hell, even support spam works on maps with plenty of buildings.

Its beatable, only with the new Kettenkrad detection range, which american players are trying to get rid of it.

zzSleeper

4th Jul 08, 4:24 AM

It dosent matter if the american player just uses Support weapons. His ally will be sending Infantry Sections to support which are miles better than PanzerGrenadiers in the beginning/middle game.

American player will even be able to make an Airborne squad easily.

You cannot be arguing for balance, when such a blatant imbalance such as lack of Sniper detection for PE exists and you have no desire to fix it.

Kettenkrad + Wehrmacht Sniper is the best counter for Snipers in 2vs2 and should stay that way unless something is done to give PE detection.

Hell, even support spam works on maps with plenty of buildings.

Its beatable, only with the new Kettenkrad detection range, which american players are trying to get rid of it.

What about British? Who doesn't get the super early vehicles(besides the bren, which is getting nerfed and worse than the IHT in every practical way), and is even more vulnerable to snipers.

Countersnipe? Don't make me laugh.

PE balances for their weakness to snipers by the virtual of having super early and powerful vehicles, as well as infantry that comes from the HQ(just like Brits, which are even more vulnerable to snipers).

A support army with tommies as your general infantry is just asking to get mortared to hell. Support spam is a terrible strat, except maybe on hilare, because those giant buildings are retarded.

Regardless, cloaked ketten with 30 detection range is just stupid. Remove detection from cloaked kettens. You can use a regular ketten+wehr sniper the same way I use a bike+sniper to kill a guarded sniper, your bike/ketten will die but it will reveal long enough for your sniper to kill his, this should be even easier for the ketten with its much longer detection range.

Ketten+ATHT should work as well.

Tseng_Fox

4th Jul 08, 4:33 AM

British arent hurt anywhere near as bad as PE by Snipers. 6 men versus 3 men.

Brits can get a detector once PE (who is affected by it more) gets theirs.

Kettenkrad can have its detection range reduced once the Scout Car gets its detection range increased.

Airborne Company is amazing with sniper strats. Hell you don't even need an M8. Just take all the fuel points and lock down with MG's, Snipers and an Airborne or two with RRs. You can even take advantage of the bad pathing of HT units.

If you see a blob of Panzer Grenadiers coming, then just click the "I-win" strafing run button.

Trust me, if your micros good then you'll win pretty effortlessly.

zzSleeper

4th Jul 08, 4:40 AM

British arent hurt anywhere near as bad as PE by Snipers. 6 men versus 3 men.

Which is complete bullshit. First of all, tommy squads are 5 men.

Second of all, you have twice as many PG squads as the British player has tommies, tommies are insanely expensive per squad.

British are just as vulnerable to snipers as PE, if not more so.

Brits can get a detector once PE (who is affected by it more) gets theirs.

Kettenkrad can have its detection range reduced once the Scout Car gets its detection range increased.

PE already have a detector, its called a ketten. British have to rely on recon sections that have a very short detection radius and have to walk around like regular infantry, leading to them being kited all day by a sniper.

Scout cars should never get detection radius bigger than 0. Its far too powerful to be a detector. It'll be like when bren carriers and m8s and infantry HTs had 3 detection radius, snipers were utterly useless because those vehicles would just run snipers down ignoring your supporting infantry.

Airborne Company is amazing with sniper strats. Hell you don't even need an M8. Just take all the fuel points and lock down with MG's, Snipers and an Airborne or two with RRs. You can even take advantage of the bad pathing of HT units.

If you see a blob of Panzer Grenadiers coming, then just click the "I-win" strafing run button.

Trust me, if your micros good then you'll win pretty effortlessly.

What kind of logic is this? "You win if you can take all the fuel points and lock them all down with MGs, snipers, and AT support".

I'm really close to wanting to insult you now. PE needs an overpowered sniper counter(cloaked ketten) because the US player will win if he takes every point on the map and then guards them with tons of units?

Airborne are highly manpower intensive, snipers are highly manpower intensive, the two does not mix because you wont have manpower for anything else if you go that route.

Strafing run got nerfed already.

You think US will win pretty effortlessly every game? Really? Ok, you play US, 1v1 me. You can use the imba airborne spam with snipers and strafing run. It'd be pretty hilarious to see you not have manpower or munitions to do any of this.

Mimar

4th Jul 08, 4:40 AM

Just give the scout car, a second optional upgrade besides op'ing. Name it "detection bla bla" and here you go. You have a specialized sniper detector unit that can cap but can't op. Much like the armor company jeep.

zzSleeper

4th Jul 08, 4:51 AM

Except the scout car is much tougher, does far more damage, and has a turret, oh, and its not doctrinal.

Scout car needs to lose half its hp and at least half its damage if it was made into a detector. I have no problem with PE getting a jeep like detector, as long as its not a super jeep like the scout car. Which is why so many people want the scout car made into a detector, because if it had detection, it would basically be a super jeep. It cost the same, it can cap, it has a turret, it does at least twice as much damage, its tougher, it can OP, etc.

Quercus

4th Jul 08, 4:54 AM

Why? It doesn't need it. Any decent RTS (and CoH tries very hard this way) attempts to ensure that no unit becomes completely redundant as the game progresses.

The kettenkrad has a perfectly good roll and is an excellent detector unit. PE don't need any more detector units that would render the ketten worthless. The argument as I understand it is that when the Luftwaffe ketten cloaks, its detection range should be drastically reduced. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Tseng_Fox

4th Jul 08, 7:22 AM

Its already the easiest unit to kill in the game yet this detection buff makes up for the lack of a PE sniper.

If it does lose all detection while cloaked I should think it should get a slight speed buff then when cloaked to make up for it.

zzSleeper

4th Jul 08, 2:24 PM

Except its already pretty fast when cloaked, it moves at least infantry level speed.

Its not the easiest unit to kill in the game, bike is even easier, bike has less health and can't reverse.

demoner

4th Jul 08, 2:44 PM

Wehrmacht has snipers and more men in their squads that cost less.

Apples and oranges.

Tseng_Fox

4th Jul 08, 3:04 PM

Its not the easiest unit to kill in the game, bike is even easier, bike has less health and can't reverse.

Jeep can block a ketten and nulifify its strength simply since the Kettenkrad has god-aweful pathing. Your point?

Bike is a different unit. It does as its tooltip says. It kills Snipers and Weapons Teams (when out in the open). Its only very minimally more costly than a Kettenkrad and for that it gets a great gun thats good versus snipers and for harassing British early.

I still havent seen a decent proposition from you for a detector unit for PE thats balanced for both sides. I don't mind losing the detection it has so long as something else becomes the detector.

zzSleeper

4th Jul 08, 3:24 PM

Jeep can block a ketten and nulifify its strength simply since the Kettenkrad has god-aweful pathing. Your point?

Bike is a different unit. It does as its tooltip says. It kills Snipers and Weapons Teams (when out in the open). Its only very minimally more costly than a Kettenkrad and for that it gets a great gun thats good versus snipers and for harassing British early.

I still havent seen a decent proposition from you for a detector unit for PE thats balanced for both sides. I don't mind losing the detection it has so long as something else becomes the detector.

What a jeep cant block a bike, given its lack of reverse?

I've already stated it, remove detection from the ketten when cloaked, reduce detection range to 25, done.

barcibus

6th Jul 08, 9:39 PM

How boring. So many pages of this and the posts don't change. I'm glad it'll come down to actually trying it out in game.

Tseng_Fox

7th Jul 08, 9:15 AM

What a jeep cant block a bike, given its lack of reverse?

I've already stated it, remove detection from the ketten when cloaked, reduce detection range to 25, done.

Not really much in my opinion since it can't hunt down snipers and that your change would be an unbelieveably large nerf to Luftwaffe.

I stand by boosting the Scout Car detection to say 5-9m or something along the lines. It is clear that was the unit that relic wanted as the Sniper-hunter. If this happens, Kettenkrads range can go down.