[2.504-ish?] Pak38 accuracy versus 57mm AT

[natrapsmai]

I think this is just a sick joke but it's worth bringing up I guess.

A camoed pak38 will two or three shot a 57mm. And since the pak38 camo system works such that it can fire 3 times before being uncamoed... it pretty much goes without saying that if you put a 57mm in the area you're going to lose 280MP without a chance to pull it out.

Headspace: The other day I tried to counter a medic bunker with AT guns (because good luck using the American mortar when there's an Axis mortar about) and lost about three of them in a row to this single pak that I couldn't see off in the fog of war. At that point the counter to a medic bunker becomes, what, elite infantry call ins with fire up and, if applicable, satchels? Because mortars are vastly inferior, flamers and rifle mobs get owned by the superiority of Axis vet next to a medic bunker and god help you if he pops FTFL. You hear often enough around here and the GR.org forums about the increased viability of Axis strats around medic bunkers and one of the reasons for this is that there's no surefire way to take them out if an Axis player has one of everything out of the T1/T2 building. You can have the same basic match up but his support is better then yours cut and dry and fighting that close to a medic bunker really tips the scales.

Close enough, anyway.

So, coming back to the point. I'm not a fan of the pak38 camo field, whether or not that should be changed is another issue, but the accuracy AT guns have against each other doesn't make me a happy camper.

[Melonplant]

And the recrewing of axis support weapons retaining veterancy was a massive buff to this tactic. I know, before it was bull. But no vet recrew = UP and with vet recrew = OP. I am so fucking sick of nebelwerfers in the beta.

On topic, the accuracy of the pak was no changed like it was supposed to. Compound that with the ambush bonus to accuracy and you got yourself a dead at gun son.

[sighman]

They said that AT gun accuracy against other AT guns was reduced, but what what is the actual figure, if anyone knows?

[Tod]

On topic, the accuracy of the pak was no changed like it was supposed to. Compound that with the ambush bonus to accuracy and you got yourself a dead at gun son.
There is no ambush accuracy bonus.
Doesn't matter though, the base accuracy is bad enough. It should be brought down to 25% of its current value, if not even lower, for all of them.

[ARMYguy]

The PAK accuracy should be brought to almost zero for shooting other PAKs, and the accuracy for shooting things like m8s should be brought way up. If an m8 can drive to a VP under fire from a PAK, de cap it, cap it, and drive away, all while being constantly shot by the PAK, and most shots miss, even while its not even moving, i think theres a bigger issue here than the AT accuracy vs other AT guns. This happens everytime i play too, which probably means the wehr gods hate me. I have even had m8s cap points guarded by 2 cloaked PAks.. you would think they could hit stationary vehicles... 2 of them !

[natrapsmai]

I actually don't have any trouble countering M8s with paks myself - ARMYguy I think that must have happened in retail or something because it just plain isn't possible in the beta :p

[Melonplant]

There is no ambush accuracy bonus.


Damage, penetration, burst duration, suppression bonus. Whatever :-P

[ARMYguy]

I actually don't have any trouble countering M8s with paks myself - ARMYguy I think that must have happened in retail or something because it just plain isn't possible in the beta

I only play in the beta. I dont know what the issue is, but my paks refuse to hit the m8, i have no idea why it should hit jeeps everytime but miss a non moving m8. O well i guess.

[Border Patrol]

replay or it didnt happen

sorry i couldnt resist

[Q77]

AntiTANK guns against AntiTANK guns is not a good idea anyway. How can you lose 3 ATguns to the same single PAK? Sometimes it is pretty hard to attack a certain unit/building (medic bunker in your case) it means your opponent has it set up right. Not sure what map it was on, but normally there are more ways to gain more mapcontrol..

[Ballist1x]

yea i guess the problem for the US then, is that IF the wehr is st up properly it is actually impossible to get to them?

i.e try and mortar them out, your mortar gets outranged...
cant out MG gun them,
cant AT gun them out,
cant rush with an M8 ebcause it wont kill the PAK or the bunker...plus volks will just blow it...

wheras if the role was reversed the wehr woul just wait and then walking stuka the crap out of the area and roll in when everything is already dead?

thats what i hate about the game so much, that the aXis have so much better indirect fire than the US it means thatt he axis can completely soften up/kill any defensive line from a distance and are effectively untouchable whilst doing it...

[zzSleeper]

yea i guess the problem for the US then, is that IF the wehr is st up properly it is actually impossible to get to them?

i.e try and mortar them out, your mortar gets outranged...
cant out MG gun them,
cant AT gun them out,
cant rush with an M8 ebcause it wont kill the PAK or the bunker...plus volks will just blow it...

105 offmap, the true reason to go infantry company.

[Tod]

AntiTANK guns against AntiTANK guns is not a good idea anyway.
The thing is: countering PaKs with 57mms is a bad idea - and should always be one - as they are indeed antiTANK guns. But countering 57mms with PaKs works great and that means something is wrong.

[Panzer Jager]

There is no ambush accuracy bonus.

The 50mm Pak 38 gets 1.5x accuracy with the 'first strike action.' (edit: not according to CoH-stats. but I may be helping Sturmtruppen out with some of the bugs in the future)

Additionally, the change was supposed to be 0.5 accuracy vs. other AT guns for all AT guns, but instead only the 57mm (not the Pak 38 or 17 pounder) recieved this change.

[natrapsmai]

AntiTANK guns against AntiTANK guns is not a good idea anyway. How can you lose 3 ATguns to the same single PAK? Sometimes it is pretty hard to attack a certain unit/building (medic bunker in your case) it means your opponent has it set up right. Not sure what map it was on, but normally there are more ways to gain more mapcontrol..

I was attempting to KO the Medic Bunker with the 57mms, and each time they got outranged and sniped by the Pak38. I was armored company so I didn't have access to satchels or the 105mm howitzer call in. In that situation you're more or less fucked against a medic bunker.

[TsaosChicken]

WSC and get a sniper, hunt the PaK and then go after the bunker. You mentioned every other unit but a sniper.

Mind you I agree with the whole super sniper/ penetration cloaking ability Wehr gets. One shotting vehicles is retarded when 57mm's can't even do it to a bike, and using AP shells still won't one shot Puma's and such.

And I agree with all the long range weaponry available to Wehr. I'd personally like to see the calliope as an upgrade to the sherman or buildable from the TD. This would allow for some other form of armor/ability call in on the tree.

[natrapsmai]

I also had two snipers, one got countersniped (which my second then in turn countersniped again), the other got hit by a stray mortar round. :(

[Sutr]

WSC and get a sniper, hunt the PaK and then go after the bunker. You mentioned every other unit but a sniper.

how is a sniper a counter to a cloaked pak? The fact that the pak can be cloaked pretty much means that it should have horrible accuracy against other at guns otherwise it can create some really fucked up moments.

[TsaosChicken]

once you know the general direction of the gun you can scout it with a sniper in camo. The fact that the camo'd gun gets such a huge accuracy and damage bonus is retarded as I said earlier. The reason it get's it is the "assumed" unaware enemy is leaving himself open for attack thereby giving it the advantage.

You all know what happens when we "assume." Playing against Wehr with these AT buffs has negated the use of M8's midgame. They are now so micro intensive you can't watch the rest of the battle for fear of losing it. The .50 cal upgrade can help against inf blobs but the range and penetration of the PaK makes it a waste of time and supplies.

[natrapsmai]

... not to mention that a cloaked pak is well, cloaked. You can't shoot what you can't see. And using the sniper as a detection unit is just begging for trouble.

[yetanotherplayer]

Exactly. Unless the cloaked pack is sitting out in the middle of nowhere all on its own it will be covered by a machine gun or infantry somewhere in the vicinity. Getting so close to a PaK that your sniper detects it and is in turn detected is not a good move at all. And if there is no infantry support you can just rush it with a Rifleman squad or two, as we've already assumed we know the general location of the PaK.

[Tod]

The 50mm Pak 38 gets 1.5x accuracy with the 'first strike action.' (edit: not according to CoH-stats. but I may be helping Sturmtruppen out with some of the bugs in the future)

Additionally, the change was supposed to be 0.5 accuracy vs. other AT guns for all AT guns, but instead only the 57mm (not the Pak 38 or 17 pounder) recieved this change.
I could swear it wasn't there all the time, at least not in vanilla CoH. But you're correct, now it gets 50% more acc from first strike.

And that second thing should definately get fixed.

[Tank_Killer1]

Doesnt recon run detect cloaked unit?

[Ballist1x]

You all know what happens when we "assume." Playing against Wehr with these AT buffs has negated the use of M8's midgame. They are now so micro intensive you can't watch the rest of the battle for fear of losing it. The .50 cal upgrade can help against inf blobs but the range and penetration of the PaK makes it a waste of time and supplies.

yes. in addition, there is no way to fast tech to M8 to beat the PAK, unless your opponent chooses to not T2

and the M3 takes an even harder hit...i never did understand why the PAK had camo ability to begin with...let alone such high multipliers for the first 3 strikes?

[varmcola]

I agree that AT-guns shouldnt be so effective vs AT-guns. It is wierd that PaKs are the most effective way to get rid of 57mm guns.

But the efficiency vs M8 was and is necessary because of the shreck nerf. If the PaK cant effectively counter the M8, Wehr is doomed vs the fast M8, seeing as any competent Ami player can kite a shreck or faust wielding volks.

[FLXleGaulois]

Smoke+Flammers ? What is it ? How do I use it ? Isn't it the best way to assault a trench+ vickers ? Doesn't it work with bunker as well ?

No, I must be totaly wrong, smoke is noobish and useless.

[Ballist1x]

[QUOTE]But the efficiency vs M8 was and is necessary because of the shreck nerf. If the PaK cant effectively counter the M8, Wehr is doomed vs the fast M8, seeing as any competent Ami player can kite a shreck or faust wielding volks.[QUOTE]

but thats getting into the realms of fantasy, it shouldnt play out like;

"aha ive got a PAK now as soon as the M8 comes into range its guaranteed toast."

the PAK should be there to deter M8's from entering the area not hit them so badly with strike 1 and 2 that its dead. i know you will come back "well the M8 can just drive around the PAK and circle it" no because how can an M8 kite fausts whilst circling a PAK? it cant. it takes too long to kill the PAK, with grens (shrek) or even a single volks nearby this will 100% not happen.

a fast M8 vs Wehr isnt exactly going to send the Wehr tumbling...as above the PAK is an area denial weapon which should keep the M8 out from harassing and kiting any Volks...a Puma shouldnt be far off, and a PIV probably fairly close too...

i always like to reminis of the 57mm VS PIV IS showdown, the 57mm is the ONLY counter to the PIV IS before the Tank Depot, but it still doesnt kill it in 2-3 shots...and the allies have less supplemental hand held AT, not a Faust or Shrekmen stood around to finish the PIV IS off...unlike if it were Pak+volks vs an M8..

[Bori]

but thats getting into the realms of fantasy,

Say the greatest exaggerator on these forums. i find that ironic and humorous.




"aha ive got a PAK now as soon as the M8 comes into range its guaranteed toast."

the PAK should be there to deter M8's from entering the area not hit them so badly with strike 1 and 2 that its dead.

now this is moving in the realm of fantasy however. The pak needs 3(even with 1 strike) shots to kill a skirted m8. So it has plenty of time to move away

the puma is killed by the 57mm in 2 shots but im not hearing you complaining about that.

Back to topic:People i find this problem so incredibly rare that im astounded that you made a whole balance issue from it. I chalk it up to good use of mechanics


The thing is: countering PaKs with 57mms is a bad idea - and should always be one - as they are indeed antiTANK guns. But countering 57mms with PaKs works great and that means something is wrong.

Show me a replay where you

1. lose more then 2 57mm
2. the 57 where supported

Then we can continue the discussion

[Ballist1x]

now this is moving in the realm of fantasy however. The pak needs 3(even with 1 strike) shots to kill a skirted m8. So it has plenty of time to move away

the puma is killed by the 57mm in 2 shots but im not hearing you complaining about that.


a skirted M8 costs 50more mun. The implication here is that a 280mp/30fuel dies to 2 shots, unless you invest an additional 50mun to give it an extra shot survivality.

the difference vs the Puma would be that the Puma/Axis player can see the 57mm and can take action to avoid. its virtually impossible to see the PAK before first strike EVEN if you send inf in ahead. So its always going to get 1 hit, if you reverse out, its definately hit 2. thats gg for a m8 without skirts. If you run it in, further and past the PAK, the axis inf has enough hand held AT (non doc, non fuel tech cost) to finish it off easily. The same cannot be said for the Puma facing the allies. (also the PAK has a faster ROF, making it easier for it to crip the M8 than it would be for the 57mm to get the Puma..)

Also, i dont believe that a puma dies to 2x 57mm shots, unless AP is on? BUT if you think about this logically, the 57mm is (using a pyro paul argument here) sat behind a larger fuel delay than the PAK so it should be more effective. The game dynamics are designed to promote the US being reliant upon their AT gun for their AT duty (shorter non doc throw, and only doctrinal AT for specialist situations), wheras the Wehr is to use it in more of a mixed role as basic inf and grens have ultra easy access to longer range/more damaging hand held AT.

[Bori]

Also, i dont believe that a puma dies to 2x 57mm shots, unless AP is on?

no 57 mm need only 2 shots as they will do 300 damage dropping them to the 5% critical range.

But im now done with this discussion as it isnt on topic and im not going to post a huge post only to be deleted by the mod's :bonk:

[Ballist1x]

i love it when people kop out when things like ROF, Cloak, and handheld AT come into consideration.


but regadless;


Additionally, the change was supposed to be 0.5 accuracy vs. other AT guns for all AT guns, but instead only the 57mm (not the Pak 38 or 17 pounder) recieved this change.

Relic can this be fixed?! the 57mm's visibility is compounded by the fact that it gets "outstruck" by opposing ATG's. There is no reason why only thr 57mm should get the nerf imo based upon all the points made above.

[BlackOmne]

I was attempting to KO the Medic Bunker with the 57mms, and each time they got outranged and sniped by the Pak38.
A pak doesn't outrange a 57. They both have the same weapon and sight ranges.

As for the situation that was brought, the counter is basically the sniper, at least to start. It was just bad luck or poor tactics that caused the loss of two snipers. If he has cloaked pak guarding the bunker and mortar supporting both, the obvious counter is to sneak a sniper into his rear on "hold-fire", take out his mortar, then start in with your mortar on his pak, followed by using your ATG on his bunker. Also, consider rushing a rifle squad to get the attention of the MG in bunker and hopefully close enough to reveal the pak and then snipe the pak. I'll trade a couple men from the rifle squad to take out the pak and ultimately the bunker.

[Ballist1x]

the obvious counter is to sneak a sniper into his rear on "hold-fire", take out his mortar, then start in with your mortar on his pak, followed by using your ATG on his bunker.

how would you even KNOW there was a PAK there. moving your sniper so far forward and using him is asking for him to be countersniped or Biked down.

if you didnt think/know there was a PAK/SNiper there it would be more prudent to send a jeep around the back of the bunker to force the MT to packup and go, as well as pointing out any PAK/Snipers in the vicinity. then you'd bring your forces and begin the de bunk stage of the game...

the good wehr player would NEVER put a PAK right next to a bunker, that's called suicide. they would keep it well behind, hidden... ready incase an M8 comes in, at which point the PAK would probably hit it from range (M8--bunker---PAK) or moved forward to be able to hit an M8. So those rifles flanking the bunker would be a waste.

[BlackOmne]

He knew when he lost his first 57mm. Why go on and lose two more?

I routinely send my cloaked sniper into the enemies rear. Snipers are invaluable for recon and acting as forward observers for artillery without firing a shot; you can always retreat them if they get into a sticky situation. Bikes are pretty rare or may be elsewhere.

You could add layers of counters and counter-counters to the situation (eg, bringing in snipers and bikes supporting the bunker) until the cows came home. Would all those layers actually be there in reality? No. Something(s) would likely be missing. The original situation was, I believe without going back to the OP, a bunker with a MG, a pak and a mortar. I didn't say anything about the proximity of the pak to the bunker, but it was implied by the original situation that the pak was either in front or to the side of the bunker. Otherwise, the 57mm could fire on the bunker from maximum range without counter-fire from the pak, if the pak was behind the bunker since both ATGs have matching weapon ranges. I hope that the original poster made use of the 57mm's maximum weapon range and didn't simply move the 57mm up until the 57mm could see the bunker (sight range<weapon range).

[Ballist1x]

yya i agree blackomne, i thought u meant move the sniper round the back and gesnipe the MT, this imo doesnt work. spotting them is good and keeping the sniper on hold fire is vital for recce missions.

yea you really need to maximise the 57mm range, but i thought u meant that a PAK right next to a bunker would be traceable by rifles, but no decent wehr pkayer is going to put a PAk where a stray MT or arty round could hit it when intended for the bunker.

BUT if you are trying for the bunker with the 57mm, it takes a good few shots to get it down, during which tiem the cloaked pak could be wheeled in, and it only takes 3-4 PAK shots, to take out the 57mm then the PAK can be retreated hidden/ready for the next 57mm/m8 to come along.

whilst i have used 57mm to clear bunkers id only do it if the area is pretty much abandoned otherwise you do massivley risk losing the at gun.

[natrapsmai]

Hey cool this thread is still alive.

I can't recall exactly how it happened again - this was a while back and honestly the tactics of the situation aren't as important to me as the fact that AT guns can sniper one another. And the Pak38 has the advantage here because it can camo. But it goes both ways. We don't like it when tanks, shreks, or bazookas blow up our AT guns, so why should other AT guns?

[BlackOmne]

Ballist1x,
I did mean sniper the mortar team ... when working with the original situation (MG bunker, pak and mortar - no sniper/bike supporting bunker). I would have to assume the mortar is behind the bunker. The pak either to the side or in front of the bunker (assuming the controlling player isn't shuffling it back and forth like you propose). The sniper could move (going around enough to avoid detection) sufficiently to the rear of the enemy to fire on the mortar and not be within range of the MG in the bunker. Two shots and the mortar is gone. Then bombard the suspected location of the pak with your mortar OR rush rifles up hoping they get close enough to the suspected location that they reveal the pak long enough for the mortar or sniper to do their job, even if they get pinned and lose a few men. Finally, move your ATG up close enough to fire at maximum range while the sniper or something else acts as forward observer for the 57mm. All of this based on the assumption that the first or second encounter with the bunker revealed the presence of a pak and mortar in the area - live and learn (or is it die and learn?)(or is it adapt and live?).