The killing of a 15 year old kid by the police and the ensuing chaos

[Illiandri2]

On Saturday night in the central area of Athens called Eksarheia a 15 year old kid got killed by a policeman. There is two sides of the story in which on one side the policemen say were proceeding to arrest the youths and in the process the kid got killed and on the other side the locals say the police killed him after exchanging words. While the event is a great shame the ensuing chaos is unbelievable. Using the death as an excuse and manipulating the rage of the common people, anarchists have turned Athens and other major greek cities into a warzone. Buildings have been set on fire, which has trapped people in the blazes while the fire department has to operate under a volley of rocks and molotovs, widespread looting that has placed guns in the hands of the anarchists and many other events that make Athens feel like Los Angeles during the massive riots. The police has retreated fearing that they may kill another kid leaving the common people practically defenceless.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7770887.stm

Discussion: How would people react to such a thing in your countries? I know that another factor is the economic crisis and the unemployment but would Germans, British or Americans react the same way? There is no racism only social inequality. Should in this chaos martial law be imposed in a E.U. country? I live in the suburbs but even here I can hear the sirens, smell the burning and honestly I am quite afraid over how big this can get.

EDIT: Another article that hits it on the nailhead

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7771628.stm

[Sethero]

Well, as an American, I'm not very well versed in the sorts of local factors that are causing this to be such a massive event. Could you perhaps expound on the unique stresses that the people of Greece which are feeding into this? It sounds like the anarchy is far above what one might expect in response to a single shooting, however bad the circumstances, and that there's some pent up aggression and anger that is being released well beyond what might be expected in this situation. I mean, we can expect violence and riots to occur just based on economic troubles and a highly publicized death at the hands of police, but the level of violence and anger seems to indicate there are some other cultural elements that are feeding the violence.

EDIT: That second link does answer a lot of my questions. Thanks for that!

[Keeper]

Unbelieveable, just killed? The riot seems enourmous.

[Retroboy]

That wouldn't happen in my location in Canada. We simply don't have the critical mass of disaffected youth. There's no equivalent of "Chavs" here or whatever your local term for them is. In fact, the concept is for the most part alien to the vast majority of youths. Sure there's some egging and pumpkin-smashing at Hallowe'en, but it's not organized.

It's one of the reasons that I like it here.

-- Retro

[Paladin]

In the US the cops kill people (And kids) regularly enough that I think it doesn't provoke much of a reaction from us compared to other places *shrugs*

[Guilliman]

Only way I'd solve this is have a city wide broadcast on speakers by public buildings/armored cars/helicopters informing the public that they have to remain indoors after X hours. After that anyone caught on the street with anything bigger then a golfball in their hands gets shot.

Pathetic that the state and Police department act like chickens. The public should not have this kind of power.

[Starfisher]

Totalitarian much?

You never get this sort of riot without significant pre-existing factors. A 15 year old getting killed by the police is an excuse for riots, not a cause. From some random side reading, it appears that the past year has been one of scandal and corruption in the government, which likely lead to the build up of stress, which just needed a trigger. Add in a history of resistance and fighting against the state thanks to past Greek governments, and there you have it: a large group of disaffected people who already had experience in mass action given a trigger to unleash their frustration and anger at recent events.

[CrossLOPER]

Are the University towns' independence in such stark contrast to the country outside that it causes the uprisings? The police really should have a little more control. I'm pretty sure teargas and pepper pellets could help.

[Coey]

Rodney King much? Or what Starfisher said.

[Sethero]

It seems like Greece has a strong recent tradition of civil disobedience in response to government. That explains the situation to a large degree I think... clearly the government has been doing things poorly there for some time, and with all the recent drama, it can almost be expected that the current iteration of the government will fold in response. It's unfortunate that the police are not able to keep things civil, but then sometimes violent uprisings are unstoppable in terms of law enforcement.

This bloodletting may have to take it's natural course. I hate to say that, as it seems insensitive and a little mean, but the sort of force needed to restore and maintain public safety, in the absence of a solution to some if not all of the crises currently going on, might incite further revolt.

[Illiandri2]

Well the universities are a safe haven for any sort of criminal. Just after the military junta collapsed in the 70's the law was changed so the police are forbidden from entering university campus. This has allowed for people to organize raids and occupy the university without any repercussions. Indeed this riot is the outburst of the sentiment of the young people for Greece is a country of few opportunities. The free educational system has created a lot of over specialized people with no future in this country. Indeed the present government has proven to be highly ineffective and many say that prime minister Karamanlis is our Bush.

The shooting happened because the policeman was to wits end with the abuse, can you imagine being subjected to constant abuse for 7 years and the kid was a victim of a government that can't protect its people or its servicemen. Off course the opposition is not that much better as it is said that one of the opposition parties supports the anarchist in the underground while the previous government placed the policeman in such a high risk area.

The present government was supposed to be our Obama and turned out to be our Bush.

EDIT: If you could see the pictures of Christmastown on fire you would cry

In addition these demonstrations have done great harm to Greece's tourism which is Greece's main industry and is going to make the situation even worse. The destruction of private property has left 800 people jobless and has denied small businesses the valued Christmas income.

[hermanJnr.]

That wouldn't happen in my location in Canada. We simply don't have the critical mass of disaffected youth. There's no equivalent of "Chavs" here or whatever your local term for them is.

No Chavs? *packs luggage* :p

Anyway, on reading the second article, did I read right when it said something about authorities not being able to enter university grounds on right of them being "asylum" areas after previous riot fatalities?

Err, how does that work?

I might be being dense, but making an institution pretty much immune to direct intervention by the law seems like asking for trouble...I can't believe rioters can just walk out with wheelbarrows, salvage debris weapons, and walk back into their "safe area" while authorities look on...it seems ridiculous.

[Langy]

Greece's constitution strictly prevents the security forces from entering the grounds of schools, universities and polytechnics.

This is one of the stupidest laws I've ever heard of. Greece needs to declare martial law and that they're ignoring this law and go in and arrest the rioters, else they'll see that there's no punishment for rioting. Also, the government pledging it'll pay for all damages caused by the riot is crazy. Businesses should have insurance to pay for that, not relying on the government.

Also: Agree with Paladin. Police kill kids often enough here that it wouldn't be too big of a deal. The police officer in question would certainly be investigated, though - last year an undercover cop at my college shot and killed a student on accident and there was no huge anger or anything, just mainly 'oh, that's so sad'.


EDIT: Oh, and as far as I can tell the US doesn't have 'chavs', either. Sure, we've got bad neighborhoods and crime and all, but from hearing people from Europe talk about 'em their 'chav' problem is completely different. You're pretty bloody safe in the suburbs. Unless you go into the slums, you're really unlikely to ever run into a gang of kids comitting crimes. I think chavs are nearly a uniquely European phenomenon.

[Illiandri2]

@Langy & Herman Jnr

The reason this law exists is because of the Polytechnic uprising where a tank smashed through the front gates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Polytechnic_uprising

The law was placed so such a thing can never happen again. But as it is said the road to hell is paved with good intentionss.

They have no insurance as no company will ever insure them due to being in the Eksarheia area. No one is insured.

The rich area of Kolonaki is now being looted, which is known to have excellent safety. Some immigrants have also taken advantage of the situation and have also began to join in the looting.

EDIT: No Herman they do not use wheelbarrows but they tend to escape through the sewers so its a bit tricky to follow

[hermanJnr.]

No Herman they do not use wheelbarrows but they tend to escape through the sewers so its a bit tricky to follow

Ah, sorry if I was misinformed there...I got the whole wheelbarrow thing from the second BBC link-


The centre for this December rebellion is the Athens Polytechnic, where students have been out on the streets with wheelbarrows and shopping trolleys to collect and recycle rocks and pieces of marble used in the previous night's assaults.

Which makes it sound pretty blatant, maybe moreso than it is...

[Radical]

Bleah...

A kid was recently killed by hooligans because they were "bored". The daughter of a famous lawyer was killed by the mafia. A short while later, a famous newspaper editor got blown up.

What did the public do?

Nothing. Gotta love socialist-era conditioning. For one, there's no such thing as a recession/depression/low living standard in the public curriculum.

[Illiandri2]

Sorry Herman I thought you meant usually but no in this case this is true.

[Harper]

Wow this is ridiculous. I feel bad for the police officers and shop owners.

[Nurizeko]

While reading a little explains the reluctance to crack heads, that foolish law needs repealing and the police/government need to show the people that while disobeying and resisting a dictatorship/totalitarian/occupying regime is one thing, threatening the public peace, the well being of the nation as a whole, rioting and basically committing crime is another.

Since its popular to label your current leader as "Our Bush", I would like to add, America had the real Bush, and there were no riots.



Greeks need to show some self discipline and restraint, you don't like the current government?, vote them out next elections, like every other developed western state.

[Vijil]

It's likely to be partly a cultural thing. Greeks, Italians and Latin based cultures in general tend on average to be more... how you say... "passionate". Yes. It has it's good sides, but it also very definitely has it's bad sides. Same with any culture. Here we see a partial result of the bad side of Greek culture, among many other contributing factors of course. What say the Greeks here?

/me did a cultural studies minor but didn't specifically study Greek culture, so this is an educated guess at best.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Riots never just happen. They have root causes that have been building for years, if not decades. Events like this shooting are the straw that breaks the camels back.

One of Illiandri's links has some interesting points to make.


The latent Greek contempt for the police, which has now erupted so volcanically, has its roots in the dictatorship, when the police were regarded as the colonels' enforcers and traitors to the people.

The death of 15-year-old Alexandros Grigoropoulos at the hands of an experienced 37-year-old policeman has precipitated a wave of nationwide violence unseen since the dictatorship.

...

In an editorial entitled "Anger's teen martyr", Mr Konstandaras wrote that Mr Grioropoulos' blood would be "used to bind together every disparate protest and complaint into a platform of righteous rage against all the ills of our society.

"It will quickly become a flag of convenience for anyone who has a grudge against the state, the government, the economic system, foreign powers, capitalism and so on."

[Illiandri2]

@nuri

It is a bit more complicated as none of the other leaders of the opposition are any good. The opposition leader is the son of the founder of the party, the communist party is stuck in the glorious Stalinist past, the other left party is well know of harboring troublemakers and anarchists and then the greek nationalist party. Greek politics has been a family affair since the end of WW2. We have no bright political future.

And about the law it will never get revoked because it suits too many people to keep it in place and cause another wave of riots by far left people

It is know that greeks are passionate people but I believe that it is more a european thing than anything else (France 2005). What needs to happen is that for once the goverment to not fear and go and crack some skulls, things at the present moment can't get any worse.

EDIT: I forgot to mention in the op that this morning there were peaceful demonstrations from ordinary students which was what we all wanted it to be.

EDIT2:
http://www.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_kathremote_1_07/12/2008_259544

It is not for the article but for the burning Christmas tree in front of the parliament picture (2nd pic)

[Retroboy]

Yeah, publicly torching Christmas really makes me want to support the protesters. :rolleyes:

I just heard an interview on our national radio, CBC, from a reporter that's trapped in one of the bigger hotels in downtown Greece. There's almost a constant thump of "petrol bombs" (molotovs?) and tear gas canisters in the background. Was pretty intense to listen to.

-- Retro

[paloozzaa]

About time (for an election). And if the morons vote for the same party again I will lose all hope of something better anything happening to this country for some time.

No one really seems surprised at the riots round my area. They didn't expect them to get this big, sure, but riots can be seen from a mile away in Greece, especially having universities as a place were people can do all sorts of stupid shit and then hide there.

EDIT: And let it be known, these aren't only "chavs" we are talking about (most of them, but not all). I saw plenty of people in their 40-50's in their suits throwing stones at police stations or protesting in general, same with the other riot/protest a few months ago during the Thessaloniki fair.

[holyknight]

Heh if I was the president, I would send my army, kill all the anarchists no matter what :P

On a more serious note, this wouldn't happen in Canada... I don't think police would even think about using guns when talking with kids. And come on... one kid got killed, so these anarchists start killing thousands? I hear hypocrisy.
No, this wouldn't happen in Canada. In Korea on the other hand...

[Retroboy]

one kid got killed, so these anarchists start killing thousandser... what?

Paloozzaa, I think what might have happened there is that those older professionals got caught up in the mob mentality. There's a "tipping point" where the individuals within the crowd succumb to their animal instincts and lose themselves to the cause, and almost everyone including 'suits' goes apeshit and starts hauling out pitchforks and torches. That's why mobs are so dangerous.

I'm pleased to say that I've never actually seen a true mob in action, let alone been in one. It's pretty scary stuff.

-- Retro

[ZellFish]

This is illiciting some of the single most ignorant and closed minded responses I have ever seen on this forum. The kid was shot for no valid reason. People got pissed. The rioted against a police force who did nothing to apologize for it, or offer any explenation. What the hell is there to discuss? They pissed off their people. The people are making it known. Good for them. Half the fucking posts on this thread are :uber: I've lost respect for several of you, having read your responses to this. Good lord. :sick:

[Pyro Paul]

There's almost a constant thump of "petrol bombs" (molotovs?)

Molotovs are a form of petrol bomb, and the most commonly known and easiest to make. a glass container with petrol and a rag in the neck. However they are using a variety of petrol bombs including the molotov. the second most common one you see is the one that when thrown has a sparkly trail.

[Nurizeko]

This is illiciting some of the single most ignorant and closed minded responses I have ever seen on this forum. The kid was shot for no valid reason. People got pissed. The rioted against a police force who did nothing to apologize for it, or offer any explenation. What the hell is there to discuss? They pissed off their people. The people are making it known. Good for them. Half the fucking posts on this thread are I've lost respect for several of you, having read your responses to this. Good lord.

We protest and call for enquiries, we don't riot and abuse university's for pointless criminal intent.

Its also beyond all proportionate force.

When one kid gets killed and the police balls it up over here, its usually the police getting the blame and maybe the family or people in the local area who are protesting and calling for blame to be settled. Our thugs save their energy for football matches, G8 summits and regular criminal activity.




But nothing left but to let it burn out now, hopefully afterwards the majority of peaceful Greeks with some common sense will make sure the next government (or this one should it survive intact) meets some of the more reasonable and common sense demands of some of the protesters (the rioters and anarchists can simply go back home and feel stupid for being morons), repeals that daft law, and makes Greece embrace some of the more peaceful concepts of civilized democracy, democracy and civilization being two things said country is well known for apparently.

[chelovek_veliki]

I have a hunch that the massive Greek reaction is linked to Greece's relatively recent past as a fascist country and corresponding fear/dislike of police. Anybody with more knowledge know anything about this?

People around here don't riot unless it's a football fight or ethnic gang conflict. :)

EDIT: Whoops, I see the Shoe has mentioned this.

[Retroboy]

Zell, please be more specific on who is pissing you off and why. Blanket statements like that don't allow the people you disagree with to even know what you're disagreeing with, let alone defend themselves or their position.

It's one thing to shout "Hey, this is unacceptable and we're really pissed" as a form or organized protest, and another to go batfuck apeshit, assault tourists, riot, and try to burn the downtown core. The guy standing with the flag in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square did way more for Chinese situational awareness than if he'd have lobbed a molotov at it.

-- Retro

[Illiandri2]

It seems that the Dean of the University has resigned because the anarchists partially burned the historic library and other landmarks and the police didn't do anything (oxymoron considering the existence of the law). Shopkeepers are suing the government for the damages while right now a massive teacher student demonstration is going on in Athens. On the other hand the funeral has been extremely solemn which comes in massive antithesis to the violent protests.

Watching 12 year olds building roadblocks in the centre of Athens is hilarious.

On the good side the looting of electronic stores and of the university has provided a lot of people with free computers which can be used to play games and help the pc gaming market in Greece.

[Robert Frazer]

What are they even directed against, beyond teen angst having a tantrum and flailing at anything within reach? The policemen involved in the killing have been arrested, it's not as if they've been laden down with medals and the Thanks Of Parliament. The glorious revolutionary students torching their own library (and the resignation of the Dean as he perhaps belatedly realises what rot has been shovelled into his pupils' heads for the past thirty years) is, perhaps, the cap to the tragic meaningless absurdity of the last few days. They're not protestors, they're vandals.

The disproportionate scale of these events demonstrates above all else that Greece has a toxic education system that is in dire need of root and branch reform.

[chelovek_veliki]

I'm curious how you know what rot has or has not been shoved into Greek students' heads, assuming you do not read modern Greek and spend a lot of time with Greek textbooks.

[Nurizeko]

The rot that its okay to behave like animals, it seems.

[NoneSuch]

In these videos/pictures all I'm seeing is a few more police men holding shields and trying to subdue countless kids. They need to get a good few Anti-riot mobiles with water cannons and tear gas launchers. Combine that with a ton of mounted police on horses and it should be enough to calm down atleast a small bit of the rioting.

I guess they're scared of using too much force incase someone gets badly hurt and it causes more trouble. While I think someone getting killed by the police who wasn't trying to hurt anyone is terrible it can't be used as an excuse for attacking innocent people/burning buildings etc

[troff]

Wasn't the kid who got shot about to throw a petrol bomb at a police car?

(Edit: The answer is yes)
Police said the teenager was shot in the traditionally left-wing Exarchia district of the Greek capital on Saturday after the boy tried to throw a firebomb at a patrol car.

What was he doing in the first place throwing a petrol bomb? Do the police have the right to defend themselves or just quell the riot? We would have to know the circumstances of the investigation before condemning either side.

(btw the family and police are conducting 2 separate lines of investigations)

There were injuries on both sides even before the kid got shot. If this were a bunch of protestors holding up signs and walking in a circle, then one of them got shot it would be much worse and I think most of the world would understand.

Perhaps the car windows were already smashed and open (the unfortunate kid was part of a larger group throwing rocks at the car) and the officer thought he had no choice...

Again - let's wait for the investigations...

[Apologies if I am being off-topic but I think the shooting of that kid would be as much discussion-worthy as the socio-economic and political history of Greece that led the pent-up anger to explode from the killing]

[NoneSuch]

Mmm he was using "Lethal" force against officors? He deserves to be shot then. Getting caught inside a vehical when a petrol bomb hits is nasty and can be deadly.

He clearly intended to cause harm. What's all the fuss about? Sounds like the shooting was justified.

[Illiandri2]

The current version by the public justice of the mass media is that another group threw stones at the police car and then mingled with the kids group. The mass media say that the police officer shot the kid straight on based on testimonies by friends of the kid and locals who are know to have no love for the police. The bullet has been found with a deformation that could confirm the officers' version that he shot the ground and the bullet ricochet.

The funeral turned into another riot and hell has broken loose now because officers fired their guns in the air in an attempt to suppress the rioters who where heading towards a merchant district.

The kids death has been used as an excuse and I am appalled.

The police in Greece have been methodically castrated since the days of the Junta, mostly through the mass media who blame the police for cruelty when they perform their job and for negligence when they don't perform the job. They burnt down my local police station who have been nothing but stellar in their job and have always been polite in my business with them. They could not do anything because many of the kids are from affluent families that have connections and the officers could see themselves working in some border town if a single hair was touched on these kids.

Your local reporter

[tasos]

Greek here :bigwave: This is what i know

The kids (who were from very wealthy families) where returning from a party. They saw the police car coming and ambushed it on a lantern, throwing rocks. Reason: none:screwy: :screwy: . The officer managed to park the car a few meters away then returned back on foot as he was infuriated :ebil: . He exchanged some bad words with the kids then shoot twice on the air and one time on the kid (the other police officer threw a flash grenade). This was far from self defence, he could have shoot him on the foot for example.

Other things to note

-the riots were followed by mass lootings. Nearly half of those involved in the lootings were illegal immigrants

- In the town of Patras shop owners were fighting with the anarchists today to protect their fortunes.

[Starfisher]

Zellfish: Unless you want to discuss what you meant, don't post in this thread again.

[Nurizeko]

Wow, and I thought Britain was bad for tear away youths who are near invulnerable from effective punishment.


You say its the affluent kids doing this?.

[tasos]

I said those who ambushed the car were affluent kids. The people involved in the riots i bet most of them are only interested in the lootings so i guess they are poor

[Nurizeko]

I was more interested in Illiandri's post, but thanks for the response.



So has the Greek government done anything?, are the riots dying down and is the plan to just let them burn out of their own accord?.



It seems troubling that such a complete lack of the rule of law is going on for no seemingly good reason.

[Unknown Target]

First of all; I'm shocked at how many people who posted in this thread would not have a problem with or even support totalitarian measures, such as shooting civilians on sight who do not obey curfew.

Secondly; I don't support these riots. Like someone else in this thread said, Greece needs to grow up when it comes to political discourse - killing a kid is bad, but really does the whole country need to go apeshit because of it? Get a board of inquiry and put the officer in jail or fire him if need be, don't torch hundreds of innocent people's properties, ruining THEIR lives just because you're pissed off.

[Giant Moth]

My dad who's a Greek says that people has been unhappy for a long time. Corruption, bad stuff from the goverment, and the likes. It's the stroke that broke the camel's back basically. The greek are a proud people, I don't think voting out in their goverment peacefully is their way to see change for the better. In fact, it hasn't been working very well for them the last couple of years. They have been going from very unstable goverments in the last 100 years, from the occupation of the Otoman empire, to occupations by the germans, to the Military Junta. It's no wonder their goverment is in a bit of a mess.

[Andkat]

First of all; I'm shocked at how many people who posted in this thread would not have a problem with or even support totalitarian measures, such as shooting civilians on sight who do not obey curfew.

Quite frankly, if you're going around throwing molotovs at inhabited buildings, lobbing stones, firebombs, and other potentially lethal projectiles at police or anyone else, and generally causing massive damage to infrastructure and fundamental social order, then you've forfeited your right to continue living in society. In order to protect the lives and property of the general public (not to mention their own persons), the police would be entirely justified in gunning down people who continued to commit arson, looting, assault, etc. and those who aided and abetted them after being instructed to cease and desist.

[Illiandri2]

@ nuri

It was the affluent kids of my area that set destroyed the station. I guess they wanted to jump on the bandwagon of violence. IMHO the people who are in the centre of this are people who have nothing to lose or people who are so affluent that they can get away with anything.

As I said in a previous post the police is nurtured and cannot perform a single action without a public outcry spearheaded by the country's mass media. As such the government can't do anything. Martial law is out of the question because the memories of the Junta is still alive for some people and lets not forget that one of the opposition party helps this rioters.

EDIT: @ Giant Moth

It is not that Greece has had a series of bad governments but the fact that the ideology that causes these corrupt governments has never been stamped out and is perpetuated by our educational system

EDIT2: IMHO

[Unknown Target]

Quite frankly, if you're going around throwing molotovs at inhabited buildings, lobbing stones, firebombs, and other potentially lethal projectiles at police or anyone else, and generally causing massive damage to infrastructure and fundamental social order, then you've forfeited your right to continue living in society. In order to protect the lives and property of the general public (not to mention their own persons), the police would be entirely justified in gunning down people who continued to commit arson, looting, assault, etc. and those who aided and abetted them after being instructed to cease and desist.

Because surely, the best way to quell civil unrest and restore faith in the government is to have it violently put down riots with mass shootings. Riots, by the way, that started because the police shot ONE person. Now imagine if they were roving the streets and shooting anybody with a stone in their hand. It would make the situation incalculably worse - at least this way the riots will probably peter out; via your prescription, the country would either rip itself apart or another military government would be instated.

[Andkat]

It wasn't intended as a specific prescription to Greece's problems- more as a general explanation of why such harsh measures would be justifiable under conditions of severe rioting. However, I do feel that the police in Greece should begin using much more aggressive methods to deal with the problem. Impose curfews and martial law, dispatch the police with all the riot-suppression equipment available, and be prepared for the lunatics out there to suffer a few casualties.

[Starfisher]

Police quelling violent, destructive riots is a good thing for society. The police must protect the lives and property of innocent people - that's their fundamental purpose. Failing to do that usually makes people lose faith in a government just as much as your standard police corruption will.

The problem isn't stopping riots, it's that for the past what, two decades, Greek government has been fucked up to the point where people are willing and able to use what should be an isolated case as an excuse for widespread theft and arson. In a healthy country, a police officer shooting someone without cause results in that police officer going to prison. In Greece, it apparently results in the destruction of totally unrelated property and threatens totally unrelated people's lives. What will happen next time the system fails?

The situation is obviously too complicated for a simple solution, but in broad terms, the Greek government needs to renew its contract with the people by providing both justice and law and order. That would mean quelling the riots and prosecuting those responsible for torching buildings and the like, as well as trying police suspected of being corrupt, inept or in this case, unfit for duty. They have to shoot for the ideal here, which is people believing in the system enough to not destroy their own country when something like this happens.

The behavior of the Greek protestors is fucking stupid, no matter how pissed off they are. If they want violent change, then do something violent to cause change like storm the capital building. Don't burn down and loot random shops. That doesn't do a damn thing except land you a new TV and fuck your country hard.

[MardiGrasBandit]

I would just like to point out that murder implies illegally killing another person. Until the police officers are convicted in a court of law, I suggest we change the leading and inflammatory thread title.

EDIT: LMAO @ someone actually changing the thread title.

[ZellFish]

Let me re-state my opinion on this, to avoid a bullshit warning. From reading this thread, I have seen the common consensus from several of you come across as, "Oh, they shot an innocent kid. No reason to riot.". No. I'm sorry for disagreeing with this, but that is complete crap. When a government kills a civilian, let alone a child, they are at liberty to explain why, or publically apologize for doing so. A wide majority of the responses in this thread are "Oh, they should get over it". Why should they get over it? Had this happened in your country, under the same circumstances, you'd be pretty pissed off, too.

I admit, the rioting was carried a bit far by the little group of Anarchists who decided it'd be a good idea to do it in the first place. And I don't agree with the rioters fucking up peoples business with petrol bombs and the what. But I do have to agree with their right to do that, especially since their government pretty much told them to fuck off, and keep quiet about something so horrible. Specifically quoting the posts I am referring to would be a bit of back-tracking in terms of the thread, so I'm not going to bother ripping a couple posts off the first page. But this is what I was trying to get across in my first post, and didn't word it quite as well. Better?

I do agree with Starfisher. It's a sad state that the people of Greece are in when such a small thing is a catalyst for these kinds of demonstrations, but they happened none the less, and for what the Greek people deem a valid reason. Perhaps this should tell the government something. And in reply to the point about the 'system failing', I don't think it's so much the system failing, as the system not knowing what the hell to do, due to poor training for this sort of situation.


I would just like to point out that murder implies illegally killing another person. Until the police officers are convicted in a court of law, I suggest we change the leading and inflammatory thread title.

How is what he did not illegal, exactly? Accidental and legal are not the same thing. Take this from a personal perspective. Say your 15 year old cousin got shot by a cop, not doing anything wrong, just trying to get out of the way of someone committing a crime. He ends up dead. How would you view that? Do you think that the cop should be tried for accidental manslaughter? Or acquitted because "Woops, they didn't teach me how to aim my gun in academy." ?

[Guilliman]

Except the kid apparently threw stones and assaulted a police officer. Somewhere I read as well there was a molotov involved. Fuck me but if I was a cop and someone wants to throw a rock in my face, or better yet a molotov, I'd shoot.

[Starblade]

No. I'm sorry for disagreeing with this, but that is complete crap. When a government kills a civilian, let alone a child, they are at liberty to explain why, or publically apologize for doing so. A wide majority of the responses in this thread are "Oh, they should get over it". Why should they get over it? Had this happened in your country, under the same circumstances, you'd be pretty pissed off, too.

A kid got shot by a cop, therefore the only reasonable thing to do is burn shit to the ground? Really? No other alternatives there?

EDIT: The kid didn't have a molotov, just rocks. As far as I know the molotov bit was entirely made up.

[ZellFish]

I'm not saying it's the only reasonable alternative. But it was the catalyst for these actions. And I really don't think "throwing stones" is an offense worthy of being shot to death by the police. Assault of an officer? Sure. A year or so in juvenial detention? Sure. Being shot on site and killed? No.

[Andkat]

It isn't even clear if the police, y'know, deliberately shot him. A protest is only justified if the government completely fails to investigate the situation or punish the offending officer (provided that the officer actually committed a transgression). In this case, the full story (including a proper evaluation of the body and the trajectory of the fatal bullet) is not even known or is only slowly becoming known. The riot itself is essentially unjustified. And, even if it was, the death of a single child does under no circumstances make the kind of extensive destruction of property, harm to or taking of life, and catastrophic disruption of social order witnessed here at all acceptable (especially as most of it is directed at the property or lives of people who are entirely innocent of any involvement with the affair, or indeed, the government itself). If a loved one of mine was killed by a police officer, I would actually wait to, y'know, determine what precisely had happened and what the government planned to do about, rather than instantly proceeding to "fuck it, I'm going to burn everything to the ground".

[NoneSuch]

The thing is the goverment isn't supporting the police officor. If we're under the impression that the police officor wasn't provoked enough to fire his gun then that's one mans actions.

He's been arrested for it and he'll be put on trial/pay the consequences for his actions. I would see the reason to riot if they gave him a medal and let him keep his job but so far if the shooting was unprovoked chances are he'll be facing jail time.

We aren't talking about "fascist" goverments misusing their power in this situation. We're talking about people getting hurt due to these riots and lively hoods being destroyed - people who had nothing to do with what happend.

I hate to say it but why would you throw rocks at a police car? The guy had no right to shoot the kid but there's far too many idiots who have Zero respect for people just doing their job. How many fire crews in england get called up just to have rocks thrown at them by idiotic prank callers?

[Nurizeko]

Why should they get over it? Had this happened in your country, under the same circumstances, you'd be pretty pissed off, too.

Well, for a start, I would think it a shame at best, annoyed if a cop was getting away with it, and wanting the officer responsible charged to shit and back if I was related, BUT would I participate or condone violent criminal vandalism, theft and social disruption?.



Hardly.


I have one good spree of extreme anti-social mob behaviour in me and I'm saving it for a genuinely threatening abusive government.


It does happen in my country, right now the media has or was recently bleeting over a "Baby P" like it was some cute nickname lamenting and tearing hair over the failure of the child protection services.


I didn't batter an eyelid.

I don't condone negligent parenting and child abuse, I don't condone breath taking incompetence of important civil servants and services.



Did I give a flying fuck in this case?. Nope, it didn't inolve me one bit, not my problem, and I even got bored of it smered over the papers and news.

People die everyday, many in shitty circumstances.

The word proportionate has an important meaning which is applicable to everything.

The Greek rioters failed to comply with that meaning.



How is what he did not illegal, exactly?

Because in any fair justice system with any moral right to pass judgement, innocence needs to be assumed until officially proven guilty.

Also, how many people have now died or been injured by the violence?.

I'm sure a greater wrong corrects a smaller one right?.
Your gut feeling makes fair sentencing not.

[Giant Moth]

Except that might not help at all. The people are angry for a reason, making them feel cornered in and threathened by their own goverment won't help.

[NoneSuch]

I guess the greek goverment should stand aside and let them burn down buildings, murder innocent people who have nothing to do with the situation and cause havoc+chaos?

The only possible and reasonable response to a situation like that is force. You can't "talk" people who are willing to attack people and burn down buildings in to calming down.

[zer0nix]

at this point, i think the government has utterly failed and the public needs to be given a sense of renewal. i'm in complete agreement with robert frasier and starfisher.

an emergency meeting must be held between the leaders of all greek communities to come to a resolution to force out those officials who have failed to lead, as well as those whom the public has a strong distaste for, and immediately repeal those laws which fail to protect the people (universities acting as shelter for criminals being one).

at this point it sounds like we're only a few steps from starting from pure dirt, so simply pushing out some officials should be a favorable option -particularly when some are suggesting upon calling martial law, where the state stands in opposition to the people. such an atmosphere of antagonism is already in place, currently with more favorable terms for the people, and it doesn't look like greek society is moving forward; thus, it's time for a new direction.

i don't know how greek news media works but i believe the agencies ought to be strongly urged to accept -even begrudgingly- this process of renewal (ie: no drumming up scandal for the sake of selling newspapers). the people must be given a sense that this new government is theirs, represents them, and this is a new beginning.

the very young must be taught how a society works and that the state -which is theirs- is what they each make of it, no matter where it starts from.

furthermore, i would have the children enlisted in the rebuilding effort and see if these chavs feel just in setting children alight -and if they do, surely it will disillusion many more rioters than injured children. at this point, such drastic measures are necessary in order to reinstall peace and staunch the flow of blood.

-as for why the children must be given such a dangerous job, i give two reasons: first, i think it would positively shape their minds about the state by giving them a personal investment and the power to perform, and second, i believe that socialism only works well if we give -at the very least- as much as we take

PS: sorry if i give off a self righteous tone, but seriously, a healthy society cannot abide such antagonism between the people and the state

this event should become a signal fire as much for the police, government and reasoned citizens of greece as the anarchists.

[Paladin]

It's not the only possible response. The other possibility is to abdicate power and allow the people to create a new government.

Which is probably the correct response, considering they've clearly failed to live up to their mandate, or this situation would not have gotten to this point in the first place.

[NoneSuch]

What your advocating is that goverments should give in to terroists and violence. If people wanted to protest peacefully then I'd fully support them but once they resorted to violence and used this as a mere excuse to kill, burn and loot there's only a few possible methods to use to stop them.

Succumbing to such threats/attacks isn't something ANY country can do. The current goverment has indeed failed, the situation is their fault but that can be in no way an excuse for what's been going on.

If the people hate the goverment vote against them but so far the goverment haven't used the troops, they're being extremely reserved in this situation. They've apologised for whats happend. Of course that doesn't make it okay but they're doing the best they can to fix the situation without violence.

Due to this sort of reaction I lose all respect for the rioters position against the goverment or their plight. This is nothing more than a form of terroism and the fact people think they should get their "way" worrys me.

[Paladin]

Disagree. Violence is a perfectly valid option for dealing with an abusive government, and often the most effective.

Terrorism is also valid, btw.

[Giant Moth]

NoneSuch, now you are being ignorant. The very concept of the modern democracy was formed out of such a bloody conflict. Do you think everything was flowers and roses during the French Revolution? Did you not think innocent people died or suffered in the anarchy, and the chaos? A bloody revolution or riot is usually a lot more effective than a peacefull one, it either spurs people to action or it makes changes happen(like for example, executing everyone in charge and taking power themselves).
People don't go out in violent civil disturbances for shits and giggles. There are probably a fair bunch of anarchist or troublemakers in the crowds, but such powerful emotions are not formed out of nothing.

[Nurizeko]

Moth, that would have worked if this was honestly about changing a bad government but its not, its an excuse to riot.

You want change in an existing democracy?, vote for it, I'm sorry but I see absolutely no justification for what's happening, and if they thought the state was that bad, they would probably have been gunned down by now.

It isn't a Junta, it isn't a third world nation with a president who wont fuck off, its Greece, a developed western nation, with a government and police force that seem positively anaemic in their response and seemingly loath to use any sort of force to disperse what are basically criminals.


They wanted to get the state's attention?, well they have it, its not as if they haven't proved the country is at their whim, nah, this isn't about politics, this is about a broken system, one that allows the state to be at the mercy of the people's criminality rather then their voting habits.


But that's anarchists for you, morons who never heard of the concept of tomorrow, its all fun and games going about like thugs now, but they'll still have to live in what's left of Greece if this doesn't stop.

[Pyro Paul]

Disagree. Violence is a perfectly valid option for dealing with an abusive government, and often the most effective.

Terrorism is also valid, btw.

US Declaration of Independence states that it is our right (and duty) to rebel and even overthrow our government if it has become abusive of the power we entrust to them.

[Bowkers]

I watched the news today, haven't for a couple of days now..and I was both shocked and pleased at the same time. I'm a passive guy, don't like violence, never have, never(fingers crossed) ever will. But to riot and set buildings alight that aren't to do with the shooting, is sickening. Instead of getting support for what they are protesting about, they are getting lambasted by people, both internally and externally. However, that is not to suggest that what they are doing is wrong, I am implying that it is the way that they are protesting. I saw a 'peaceful' protest going on outside the President's offices on the news. That I believe in-not this barbaric burning down of innocents businesses.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

i'm not sure what the problem is, the rioters are just using their 2nd amendment rights to resist the government, and they arn't even using guns to do it

/me coughs
This is sad. If you check the news reports the only person who has even died is the 15 year old kid who got shot. But no, bring out the tanks and machineguns, shoot em all and let god sort em out. Turn a bad period into a massacre and a nightmare. :disgust:

Some (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7774304.stm) reading (http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20081209_greece_riots_and_global_financial_crisis) might give perspective.

[sn0zcumb3r]

Things have changed this time around..
As it has been said the killing is an excuse not the reason behind the riot. The cause of the killing is most likely the fact that policemen are highly uneducated here in Greece. When I graduated from highschool in 2001 you needed 19,4 to get into medicine, 18,9 to get into computer studies 17,0 for economics and a mere 11,0 to get into the police force (average year marks out of 20 in 12 or 14 subjects). If you got less than 10 you failed the year so you can understand approximately the level of education.
The reason for the riots is the growing economic and social disatisfaction that is present not only in Greece but throughout the world. The sad thing is that here it is far more obvious with the corruption being so widespread and open that it is disgusting. An example is the scandal that came into light a few weeks ago where it was proven that members of the goverment in conjunction with the church managed to "accumulate" 100.000.000Euros of tax payers money. If this doesn't force the goverment to resign what can? The other parties on the other hand are also equally corrupt because even though these things are going on none of them is "clean" enough to step up and name name's.
An interesting bit of information and food for though is that we have similar riots on the 17th of November every year and during many anti American/Imperialism (I know they are not the same, they just often fall into the same category) protests where many shops windows are broken and some fires etc are set however this is the first time I can remember and the same goes for my father (born in 1948) where they have actualy pillaged from the stores. In the past it was just the destruction as a form of protest, anger etc.. now there is the need to steal.

[Evilmerlin]

And the Spanish decides to join in!

Source (news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2BNews/World/Story/A1Story20081211-107154.html)

[Starblade]

Wait, what? Spain? Why are they rioting and shouting "police murderers" to their own cops over the kid's death?

[sn0zcumb3r]

The reason for the riots is the growing economic and social disatisfaction that is present not only in Greece but throughout the world.
I am quoting myself but I belive this is the reason..

[Illiandri2]

I swear the view of 5 12 year olds blocking Vouliagmenis avenue (one of the major routes into Athens from the southern suburbs) using flaming dustbins thus causing a 3 km traffic jam will never go from my mind. This happened today.

Demonstrations have broken out in Germany, Uk, France and other major european countries.

What is worst is that foreign investment in the country has run dry as no one is going to invest again as not even the greek business are planning to open some of their shops again.

The world is going to pot in a handcart

[Pyro Paul]

and while most of europe decends into riots and civil disobedience, American 24/7 news stations can't talk of anything except a US Senator trying to sell Obama's Senate seat...

I've heard a more indepth report from a US Stock Exchange exclusive channel than from the Primary news networks on this subject...

[Kirjava]

Anyone got a link for riots in other countries? Can't see anything on the BBC.

[Illiandri2]

@Kirjava

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/11/world/main4662086.shtml

EDIT: http://www.upi.com/news/issueoftheday/2008/12/11/Greek_riots_may_be_Europes_future/UPI-49811229011659/

[No Surrender]

How is what he did not illegal, exactly? Accidental and legal are not the same thing. Take this from a personal perspective. Say your 15 year old cousin got shot by a cop, not doing anything wrong, just trying to get out of the way of someone committing a crime. He ends up dead. How would you view that? Do you think that the cop should be tried for accidental manslaughter? Or acquitted because "Woops, they didn't teach me how to aim my gun in academy." ?
In this hypothetical situation, the police officer would be charged with manslaughter. Murder is clearly defined as an illegal killing with the malice of forethought. Unless someone can prove the cop was determined to go out there and shoot someone, he would get charged for manslaughter. Simple as that. The rioters may be justified in their actions if the government took no action but the fact that the police officer was arrested pending investigation destroys any moral grounds the rioters may have had.

PS: Thread title changed from "murder" to "killing".

[TheDeadlyShoe]

firing a gun in someones general vincinity resulting in their death is reckless disregard for life in my eyes...arguably murder.

[Pyro Paul]

I really want to know what the cops where shooting at in the first place...

Murder and manslaughter are usually divided by 'Malice intent'. if they intended to inflict pain, suffering, or distress and some one subsquently dies because of it that is murder. but if some one simply kills another with out the intent of harming them in the first place, that is manslaughter.

[Imperial Dane]

Well the last thing i heard was that it was in fact a ricochet that killed the kid. Of course that doesn't help anything as the troublemakers will just believe it a lie.

Nor does it help that apparently large parts of the country are shut down as several large unions begin striking.

Sure the government is probably corrupt and should be changed with someone competent and what not.

But how exactly is burning down several of the largest cities going to help that ? The only thing it is going to do is Compound all the troubles in the long run, because guess who is going to pay for the clean up and what not ? The Taxpayers, plus who knows what people have lost to those rioters already.

Order needs to be restored and quickly, lest this turn to be the common resort when there is something people don't like, because torching cities isn't helping anyone.

[Kirjava]

But the Greek riots are noteworthy because they are the first widespread expression of urban anger in Europe since the global financial crisis erupted out of the Wall Street financial meltdown in September. The central role of the students also recalls the destabilizing role a large, overeducated but impractical and underemployed student population played in the fierce anti-American riots that swept Europe 40 years ago.

American and European intelligence and senior police officers have privately expressed concern for many years that the combination of low economic growth and generous, perpetual welfare benefits in many European countries was creating an angry, alienated subclass that could turn resentful and hostile to public safety and responsibility, especially when economic times turned tough.
What're peoples' thoughts on this sentiment in particular?

[Vaarok]

Just for context, it's not always an innocent victim even if the "victim" wasn't committing a crime.

Here's a pretty good example of the sort of situation these sorts of things erupt from:

http://cowtowncop.blogspot.com/2008/08/riot-in-projects.html