Pearl Harbor conspiracy?

[IndigoSpyder]

Did FDR knew all along that the Japs were planning the Pearl Harbor bombings and just let it go in order to sucker Hitler to declare war against the USA? I remember watching in a documentary that the American people were tired of European wars and it was FDR who was so into the war.

Good find...perhaps 95% horsecrap but quite entertaining...
Pear Harbor - Mother of all Conspiracies (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html)

Comments?

[Bowkers]

My first comment, is, I hate conspiracy theories. Things like the Holocaust did happen, they weren't made up. I know this isn't about the Holocaust, but still, to believe the President knew about this and didn't do anything...really?

My second comment, in an attempt to seem a nice guy, is Japan was spoiling for a fight. Its continuous and aggressive moves in the Pacific, suggested that it was war that it wanted. It was only a matter of time until Japan and America would go to war, in my opinion, and by suggesting that the President was willing to put peoples lives at risk on the desire to go to war, is wrong.

[Handyman]

I have to agree with Bowkers on this one. Japan attempted to destroy the american fleet at Pearl Harbor, so that they could conquer southeast Asia and the Pacific without intervention. Hadn't the Japanese pissed of the US they might have been able to stay out of the war, but I just don't believe that FDR would set it up just so that he could join the war. Especially if you try to see this from a strategic perspective: would america risk their entire pacific fleet and their fighting capability in the pacific to join the war in Europe? I think not.:)

[chuckles22]

The president did know about the attacks and actualy helped provoke the attacks. One of the things he did that erked the Japs the most was an agressive submarine movement right around the Japanese home islands. Why should our subs be so close to Japan when they have the Phillieans to defend? Thats kinda edgeing the on.

2 IT IS FACT that Japan warned DC before the attack. Atleast 1-2 hours before the attack DC got a telegram about the attack on Pearl Harbor. Now doupters are going to say never happen. But the kind of rule in Japan was military and this military followed the laws of Bushido. One of these laws is you do not kill a sleeping Samuri, you wake him up and give him his sword, than you fight. If you are going to argue me on this save yourself the breath because if you know anything about WW2 in the pacific you WILL know that JAPAN was under MILITARY rule and LOVED the way of the samuri, and BUSHIDO.

[Bowkers]

Atleast 1-2 hours before the attack DC got a telegram about the attack on Pearl Harbor

I think you need to read up more... Once you have done so, you will then realize that peace negotiations were happening between the two countries before the attack on Pearl Harbour. Some historians say that this was delaying tactics, these are the historians I tend to side with. Thirty minutes before the attacks, the Japanese diplomats informed the US government that agreement could not be reached. Thirty minutes after this, Japan attacked, with the hope of crippling the US navy, so that Japan could complete it's expansion ideas in Southeast Asia, without the big power in the area, US, from doing anything for at least half a year.

However, one thing that the Japanese failed to take into consideration, was the main targets to this bombing raid, the aircraft carriers, which on the day of the attack, were doing excersises. Therefore the attack, although seriously damaging ships, the main focus of crippling the US Pacific Navy failed.

I would be most interested in seeing where you got your 'fact' that the US government was warned about the attack two hours in advance. As far as I am aware, the surprise of the attack was the key point that Roosevelt made on the following day. In fact a quote from the speech, if I may:


'[the] United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

This certainly appears to me that Roosevelt wasn't anticipating an attack, in fact in his following few lines, he states what I have stated, that American diplomats and Japanese diplomats were talking about peace, not war.

In conclusion what you have is a very cunning Japan, who attempted to hoodwink America and very nearly succeeded.

And to reply to your samurai stuff. Japan wanted to, excuse the crudeness, rip America's balls off, by destroying it's fleet. That way, Japan was the lord of the sea, certainly until America had rebuilt the fleet.

If you can give me solid evidence that Roosevelt was aware of the attacks, and so therefore knowingly and willingly allowed american lives to be lost, then I would love to see it.

[Hammerguard]

...If you are going to argue me on this save yourself the breath because if you know anything about WW2 in the pacific you WILL know that JAPAN was under MILITARY rule and LOVED the way of the samuri, and BUSHIDO. Provide documentary proof that backs up your stance and then we won't argue.

Until then it's only a conspiracy THEORY.

[absauston]

I read a book about a double agent named Dusko Popov working for MI5 and MI6 warning the US government that there was a possibility of an attack on Pearl Harbor. I *think* it was Edgar Hoover that he talked to about this pending attack in late 1940 but the information never got passed up to FDR.

[Master Chief]

I'm with Bowkers on this one, there wasn't any Pearl Harbor conspiracy. James Bradley's book Flyboys also supports this, basically stating with historical evidence that Japan as a nation did not formally declare war, it just attacked. It did it against Russia before WWII, and it did the same in WWII.

In addition, about "bushido." While that was a real concept, the bushido of WWII Japan was not the same as true bushido from the age of samurai. The corrupt ruling class of Japan basically used the concept of bushido to make its soldiers fight to the death or dishonor their family. They had no problems with sneak attacks or fighting "unfairly," for example training soldiers to act wounded so they could blow themselves and American medics up with a hidden grenade.

[Khorney]

US were always going to enter war with japan in the pacific, whether or not the japanese bombed pearl harbour, they had too many interests in the region to let it go, not to mention previous uneasy relations with the japanese. That, and they had been supplying the allies previously and IIRC it was actually germany that declared war on the US. pearl harbour just catalysed it, rather than sparked it

[Master Chief]

The United States was supplying the Allies, yes, as well as setting trade embargoes on the Axis. However, what happened was Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, the U.S. declared war on Japan, Germany declared war on the U.S., the U.S. declared war on Germany, and then Italy followed suit. Pearl Harbor started the chain of events that got the United States officially in the war as a military power.

[Heretic]

I read a book about a double agent named Dusko Popov working for MI5 and MI6 warning the US government that there was a possibility of an attack on Pearl Harbor. I *think* it was Edgar Hoover that he talked to about this pending attack in late 1940 but the information never got passed up to FDR.

And what book would that be, from what author? You've got me interested, both in the fact that Mi5/6 did not exist then, and I'm also interested in the actual source, got any quotes you'd like to share?

[Bowkers]

I am in total agreement, war between these two countries was inevitable. Japan was eager to expand its Empire, whereas America had a continued interest in the area. However to suggest a conspiracy, you need to be sure of what you are saying, and give sources etc.

[absauston]

Spy, Counterspy they were his memoirs.

I was reading through wikipedia on both MI5 and 6 and both were formed as the SSU in 1909.

I can't give any quotes because I read the book in High School which was like 4 years ago.

http://www.amazon.com/Spy-counterspy-autobiography-Dusko-Popov/dp/0448116065

[Hammerguard]

And what book would that be, from what author? You've got me interested, both in the fact that Mi5/6 did not exist then, and I'm also interested in the actual source, got any quotes you'd like to share?MI5 and MI6 were both founded in 1909, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi5, http://www.mathaba.net/data/sis/history.shtml and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MI6

[Bowkers]

Ok then. Another passage of book read. Another suggestion supporting that it wasn't a conspiracy.


'Although American intelligence had collected much information that suggested the imminent possibility of some attack by Japan on American territory, during autumn, lack of adequate staff and any effective coordination of information handling and assessment meant that nothing had yet been revealed to indicate Pearl Harbour as the target.

Moreover, military intelligence was substantially limited by the inability of the Army and Navy cryptanalyst's to crack the Japanese Army and Navy codes before December 1941.

Nevertheless, several clear warning signals of the approach of the Japanese strike force in the final few hours before the launch of the attack were ignored or ineptly handled by American military and diplomatic staff, who unprepared for war. . Two intercepted Purple ciphers were passed on by Admiral Stark suggesting that Pearl Harbour was going to be attacked. However human error meant that Pearl Harbour received this information too late'

So, as this book points to basic mistakes in passing the message across the chain of command. Not conspiracy. Of course Roosevelt could have received the message and been a total prick and said 'NO-I WANT WAR' but I doubt it.

[Full_ork]

would america risk their entire pacific fleet and their fighting capability in the pacific to join the war in Europe?

Well the theory states that those ships were old and outdated, so when they were destroyed it enabled new ones to be built and got the country into war.

[Bowkers]

Full_ork, the main aim for Japan attacking Pearl Harbour, was to knock out the aircraft carriers. These were perfectly up-to date ships, and were used effectively in the aftermath of Pearl Harbour. If, going with what you said, that the ships were outdated, Japan wouldn't have been so paranoid about the fleet. Because America had these three aircraft carriers, Japan was eager to put these out of action. They didn't and the US immediately put the aircraft carriers to good use.

[Infidelicious]

You have to remember that prior to the Battles of the Coral Sea, Midway, and the sinking of the Prince of Wales and Bismark. Battleships were still viewed as the main force of any naval power.

While the Japanese would have loved for the American Carrier force to be in port at the time of the attack, the carriers were not the sole objective.

In addition, the majority of the ships sunk were severely outdated, and the loss of the battleships IMO was a good thing, as they would have done nothing but slow the Carrier Groups down.

As far as conspiracy theories go, it's not as if having an American ship attacked or destroyed as a way to drum up popular support for a war is without precedent.

USS Maine sunk in Havana starts the Spanish American War
Ton kin Gulf incident* leads to the Ton kin Gulf Resolution and the escalation of the Vietnam War

*which may or may not have actually happened.

FDR also played pretty fast and loose, and the idea that he would allow this to take place IMO isn't exactly out of the realm of possibility.

[Bowkers]

the carriers were not the sole objective

Hence why I did say main aim, they had other aims, such as the oil supplies that were there.
Let me get this clear then. Your stating that a heavily religious man such as Roosevelt, would have allowed this attack to go on, and it then playing on his conscience? I personally don't think so.

[Infidelicious]

Morality is relative, especially in politics. FDR was a religious man, but he was also a supremely skilled politician, and any skilled politician HAS to be pragmatic. FDR knew that WW2 was going to involve the US in one way or another.

It comes down to this:

Having a blank check and the moral high ground as far as public opinion goes for war.

vs.

POSSIBLY preventing few thousand dead, and the destruction of an an outdated fleet that has to be replaced anyways.

Even with a few hours warning it's not clear that any resistance would have been particularly effective. American aircraft were outclassed, the vast majority of Ships at Pearl would not have been able to keep up with the Japanese fleet as it disengaged.

[Bowkers]

Having a blank check and the moral high ground as far as public opinion goes for war

Could you explain this please, I dont quite understand. Are you saying that he was taking the high ground because most people wanted war in the US?

[IcecreamLtDan]

Aldebaran,

This thread is about a discussion of the attack on Pearl Harbor and the possibility of it being a conspiracy. I suggest you keep that in mind the next time you decide to post something here.

[Infidelicious]

It's far easier to drum up overwhelming support for war in an isolationist nation that has no interest in involving itself in a war in Europe OR Asia; when there is American blood in the water.

Personally I'm not sure if he did or did not have knowledge of the attacks. But if he did, it would not be hard to believe that it was in America's best interest to not act. The political capital, and the righteous outrage a surprise attack caused is infinitely more valuable than 2,500ish service members and a bunch of outdated equipment.

To put this in a more modern perspective, do you really think the last administration could have invaded Afghanistan and Iraq without 9/11 succeeding? Had the FBI caught the terrorists before the attacks happened it would have changed the whole dynamic.

Attempts and plots do not force the immediate emotional response of an outright attack. Hearing about someones plan to do something heinous and seeing the results are completely different.

[Bowkers]

Nevertheless, several clear warning signals of the approach of the Japanese strike force in the final few hours before the launch of the attack were ignored or ineptly handled by American military and diplomatic staff

To quote from the book that I gave in a previous post. The Japanese were very cunning in that they held up negotiations right until 30 minutes before the attack, then announced that there would be no peace. The intelligence section of the military had picked up a couple of hours before that Japan was preparing an attack, but the hierarchy dismissed it as unimportant, as Japan supposedly wanted peace. So, in effect, the Japanese were very good at hoodwinking the politicians right until the attack, which was the reason, imo, that America was so unprepared.

So in a sense, not that I want to get into this discussion, being a WW2 forum and all, but are you seriously suggesting that 9/11 was also a conspiracy idea?

[Infidelicious]

No. I'm stating that it's success completely changed the options on the table due to it's effect on public opinion. The American public reacted in an extremely similar manner after both attacks. Without that public support, both administrations would have faced an uphill battle bringing the country into a war.

I'm not saying the OP is true. I'm just saying it's not impossible.

[Bowkers]

I am in agreement with you there, I think any country would react in the same way. But to suggest a conspiracy? Where's the evidence that definitely states Roosevelt did nothing and let the Japanese attack? It's all very well stating that Roosevelt did nothing to allow Japan to attack, thus leaving no choice but to declare war, but where's the proof? The intelligence services even admitted that they were poor in picking up information about the attack. So if they didn't know anything, how would the President know any better?
I know I have a biased view, in that I simply don't believe in conspiracy theories, yet I am still interested in seeing evidence that could possibly suggest a possible conspiracy.

[Saunders]

People seem to forget that the invasion of the Phillippines was commenced in tandem with the attack on Pearl Harbor. Its not as if the call for war would have been mitigated by saving the fleet, because of what was effectively an invasion of US-occupied territory. One can assume that Pearl Harbor was attacked only to peemptively remove the pacific fleet as a threat for an inevitable US response to the invasion. Considering that the occupation of the Phillippines was the overall goal of the Japanese at the moment, then one should ask themselves why it would have mattered whether or not the fleet at Pearl Harbor was prepared for the surprise attack that followed. I don't see a reason for Roosevelt to have concealed knowledge of the attack, when considering the whole picture. Also considering the fact that Phillippine defenses were for the most part not adequately prepared at the time when compared to the ideal timeline that MacArthur had laid out, tells me that the US did not know what was going on.

Unless someone is willing to tell me that losing the Phillippines was also part of Roosevelt's plan to enter WWII. That would be a stupid, stupid plan. Nobody remembers the Phillippines, though. :P I've never heard of any Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories that take it in to account.

[PvtBob]

OK, the US stopped sending oil to Japan after they attacked China Japan was pretty miffed about that to say the lest. While peace talks where being conducted the US knew that the Japanese Fleet was on the move but they did not know to were. We were intercepting coded messages from Japan and decoding them as fast as we could, we knew of an impending attack and once again we had no idea were or when. The Japanese sent the go word to their ambassadors state side, but without a typist they were unable to decode it themselves in time to deliver a formal deceleration of war before the attack as intended. Our own intel on this was late to the party because of a clinical error in the mail room. hope that kind of clears things up, if it seems incoherent its because i was watching a movie

[Bowkers]

So that is grounds for a conspiracy theory? As I mentioned above, seems to me to be human error, that the message wasn't fast enough to reach the hierarchy, and thus effective hoodwinking by the Japanese.

[Hammerguard]

So that is grounds for a conspiracy theory? As I mentioned above, seems to me to be human error, that the message wasn't fast enough to reach the hierarchy, and thus effective hoodwinking by the Japanese.Shit, I don't know about a conspiracy, but here's another sign of the forthcoming Apocalypse, me agreeing with Bowkers.

Nothing that has been said points to FDR KNOWING that the Japanese were going to attack, this timeline (http://www.worldwar-2.net/timelines/asia-and-the-pacific/pacific-islands/pacific-islands-index-1941.htm) is one of many that detail diplomatic relations during the war.

The timeline shown deals with the Pacific theatre and is, to the best of my knowledge, one of the most comprehensive on the net.

Have fun.

[Pyro Paul]

Yes. the US Military and President had the information at hand before Pearl Harbor which showed conclusively that Pearl was the target of a sneak attack at the hand of the Japanise.

did they 'Know' that it was going to happen?
No. there was no conclusive proof, and like all intelegence, there where reports which said the exact opposit.


there are thousands of threats and possible attacks that arise every single day. That doesn't nessarly mean that any of them will happen. And like wise, you can't just act on impulse on every given or forseen threat. So, yes, the president and high ranking military officals had information at hand which showed that Pearl Harbor was a target and about to be attacked... but they also had information at hand which showed that U-Boats could possibly attack target US naval facilities on the east coast, that axis sympathatic forces in mexico and cuba could join germany and attack the american main land if they took a side, and a whole host of other reports and intel of threats else where.


could we of stopped it?
yeah, of course.

we could of also stopped that Mexian invasion of Texas and that German U-Boat Shelling Shipyards in Virgina

[Bowkers]

Yes. the US Military and President had the information at hand before Pearl Harbor which showed conclusively that Pearl was the target of a sneak attack at the hand of the Japanise

Where's the source? I've provided evidence to support the claim that the President was obvlious until approximately half hour before the attacks occurred.

[Pyro Paul]

that was kind of a pun on 'conspericy theory evidence' which is what the rest of my post tries to point out....

basically, conspericy theory evidence mostly works like this:
'the evidence is conclusive because we have hindsight'


so, here is the facts-
1.) the US knew of a pending attack on US by Japan on December 6th. they had cracked the Japanise Code and could read messages being set between the US/Japanise embassy and Japan. However, these messages intercepted didn't say exactly when they where going to attack nor how.

the messages instructed the embassy to end any negotiations and to destroy all doccuments and code machines. American high command and the president knew that this was a sign that japan was going to declare war.

however, they did not know a target or a date.
they simply knew that japan was entering the prelude to war.


2.) High command and the president also had a list of plausable dates, and a host of possible targets which could be hit. and on that list there was Pearl Harbor, an obvious target because it was a large capacity deep water port used to service all ships in the pacific front. of course they also had to consider the Phillipines, the Alasking coast, the entire west coast of the US Main land, and every island inbetween the US and Japan.




The US Knew a pending unannounced japanise attack was going to happen at any point after December 6th and the US Knew Pearl harbor was a target...


And with my 20/20 hindsight i would say that this conclusive evidence that the US Knew that Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked on December 7th And Did Nothing!! </mocking sarcasm>

[Quaetam]

From what I've heard, the U.S. got the word that the Pearl Harbor attack was coming and sent a telegram to Pearl Harbor warning them of the impending attack, but due to distance the telegram didn't arrive until it was already too late.

[IcecreamLtDan]

Here's some more interesting reading on the subject.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/

[Bowkers]

I have quickly scanned through the document, seeing any unusual quotes/any quotes that would be of interest to this debate.


No. 435
September 20, 1941
#196.
FROM: Washington (UAWRK)
TO: Tokyo (SUMMER) (Vice Chief, Gen. Staff)
America would probably not force even a political or commercial war with Japan, provided that the Japanese Army does not directly attack the Philippines or block the shipment of tin, rubber and the like from Malaya and the Netherlands East Indies.

This telegram, clearly set's the boundary for Japan. Attack Phillipines, and war will be declared. As someone has already mentioned in this thread, Japan had built up her forces around the Phillipines, and on the day of Pearl Harbor attacked the country, which along with the attack itself, suggested a blatant disregard to the diplomatic situation, with Japan the antagoniser.



FROM: Washington (Nomura) October 24, 1941
TO: Tokyo # 995.
had made such a war-like statement as "the Japanese Navy is 'itching for action' ", and that the ferocious attacks which the Japanese newspapers have been making on the United States had greatly provoked the American people both in and out of the government and are injurious to the continuation of discussions.


Again, Japanese hiearchy supposedly itching for a battle with America, a full month away from the actual attack, thus provoking anger from the American people.


FROM: OPNAV November 24, 1941
TO: CINCAF, CINCPAC, COMS 11 12 13 15 242005 CR 0443

INFO: SPENAVO LONDON, CINCLAT

"Chances of favorable outcome of negotiations with Japan very doubtful x This situation coupled with statements of Japanese Government and movements their naval and military forces indicate in our opinion that a surprise aggressive movement in any direction including attack on Philippines or Guam is a possibility. Chief of Staff has seen this dispatch concurs and requests action Adees to inform senior Army officers their areas x Utmost secrecy necessary in order not to complicate an already tense situation or precipitate Japanese action x Guam will be informed separately."

These were the only quote that I could see thus far, which doesn't mean that there aren't any more, that suggests that America was aware of an imminent attack on Pearl Harbor. The above quote, suggests, they had no idea, whilst the latter, suggests that Pearl Harbor was supposedly the target.


FROM: Honolulu December 6, 1941
TO: Tokyo #253.


1. On the American continent in October the Army began training barrage balloon troops at Camp Davis, North Carolina. Not only have they ordered four or five hundred balloons, but it is understood that they are considering the use of these balloons in the defense of Hawaii and Panama. Insofar as Hawaii is concerned, though investigations have been made in the neighborhood of Pearl Harbor, they have not set up mooring equipment, nor have they selected the troops to man them. Furthermore, there is no indication that any training for the maintenance of balloons is being undertaken. At the present time there are no signs of barrage balloon equipment. In addition, it is difficult to imagine that they have actually any. However, even though they have actually made preparations, because they must control the air over the water and land runways of the airports in the vicinity of Pearl Harbor, Hickam, Ford and Ewa[b], there are limits to the balloon defense of Pearl Harbor. I imagine that in all probability there is considerable opportunity left to take advantage for a surprise attack against these places.
2. In my opinion, the battleships do not have torpedo nets. The details are not known. I will report the results of my investigation

However, I still would like to affirm that the very idea of this conspiracy theory is sickening, and that the intelligence department, from the evidence that I have read on, was very poor, and human error was a major part in this attack. I find most conspiracy theories to be of bad taste, whether it's this particular one, a Holocaust one, or 9/11.