One-Second Review

[Rhedd]

I mean, it's a review after playing for exactly one second. I'm sure it'll take longer than a second to read the review. ^_^

I hate it.

Actually, that didn't take long, did it?

So how can a huge fan who has been anxiously looking forward to this game hate it after literally one second of playing? The answer is sure to get many people to say, "oh, big deal", but consider my reason, first.

What in the hell is with the stupid camera that won't rotate close to the ground or your troops? Really, what the HELL?

Did anyone ever complain about the DoW camera?
Did anyone ever complain about the WA camera?
How about the SS camera?
The CoH camera, maybe?
Or wait, the OF camera... No? Not that one either?

So why then, if you'd made that many games with the best camera in RTS history, would anyone in their right mind go and change it?

I can only conclude that some people at Relic aren't actually in their right mind.

Why else would they talk on and on and on about how they really wanted you to feel connected to your soldiers this time around, and then stick us with a camera that floats above the battlefield like a bird, and doesn't allow you to get down among your soldiers like every other successful game ever made by Relic?

Yeah, the camera isn't that big a deal, I know. I know everyone who actually plays the game seriously never zooms in anyway. I also know that with a bit of modding it can probably (probably) be fixed (fixed!!), so that's not what has gotten me so worked up.

What's gotten me worked up is the rampant stupidity of the change in the first place. Really, the mind boggles. Who could possibly think this is an improvement? Shouldn't all changes be improvements, or is that just me being old fashioned?

I was worried about a lot of things, but the Relic trademark camera was not one of them. Oh how naive I've been...

Okay, now I'll go play the game for more than one second, and possibly love it, but I won't easily forget that it's a game- good or bad- that was made by people that ought to be locked up for criminal idiocy.

[Mazinkaiser]

Hrm... I didnt actually have any problems with the camera. It worked well enough for me. I actually liked that if you rotate the camera around, the minimap rotates too. Saves ya a headache. :)

[Croaxleigh]

Did anyone ever complain about the DoW camera?
Did anyone ever complain about the WA camera?
How about the SS camera?
Yes. Quite a bit. Enough to spawn at least 2 different camera mods, because it didn't let people zoom out enough.

[OnlyToast]

So you hate the game because you can't check "camera panning" in the ingame game options? ;)

[Rhedd]

Yes. Quite a bit. Enough to spawn at least 2 different camera mods, because it didn't let people zoom out enough.Yeah, good point. I stand corrected. The old cameras didn't give you enough freedom. Obviously, the solution to that problem is to... lock the camera down more. ^_^


So you hate the game because you can't check "camera panning" in the ingame game options? No, I hate it because screenshots like THIS (http://images.mmosite.com/my/upload/0d/7e/arthas411/08/0610/20080610172234_746.jpg), and THIS (http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/images/kotaku/2008/06/WDawnofWar24.jpg), and THIS (http://ve3dmedia.ign.com/images/02/97/29746_normal.jpg), and THIS (http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/eldar-fighting-space-marine-in-dawn-of-war-2-screenshot-big.jpg), and THIS (http://www.total-oblivion.nl/news/images/dawn_of_war_2_1.jpg), and THIS (http://www.gamershell.com/static/screenshots/13290/325070_full.jpg) are lies, and there's nothing I hate worse than advertising screenshots that can't be taken with the actual game.

The first thing I did was look for a setting, and the first one I tried was "camera panning", and as far as I can tell, it does absolutely nothing. It certainly doesn't allow for a deeper camera angle or height.

If for you it allows for CoH/DoW1-style camera angles, please take a screenshot of as low and close as you can get a camera to go, although I can't why it wouldn't work for me.

[Ruined]

Hold alt when you move the mouse and you can get in low and tight just like those screens. Mouse wheel zooms. That's how we took them

[TheDeadlyShoe]

which is exactly like coh incidentally

[OnlyToast]

Just as Ruined said. ALT and mousewheel. Just as in DoW and CoH, mind you. Now enough of that cheese?

[aerziel]

hmm thought this was a joke thread cause I thought it was obvious

[Surrealitycheck]

It's quite comical how some people will take almost any opportunity to complain 8(

[Croaxleigh]

Just because something is obvious to some doesn't mean that it's obvious to everyone.

[Rhedd]

I wrote a rather impassioned response, but then I realized that a picture is worth a thousand rants. ^_^

So, without moving from the starting point on the map, I took a screenshot from each game, zoomed in as close and rotated as low as I could get to my soldiers. (And I even used the ALT key! Wonder of wonders! ^_^)

Here's DoW1:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/RheddnAllie/WH40K/relic00006.jpg

And CoH:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/RheddnAllie/WH40K/relic00033.jpg

And finally, DoWII:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/RheddnAllie/WH40K/relic00000.jpg

No, really, that is AS CLOSE as I could possibly get, and as low an angle as I could get, as well. Gosh I love the detail on that new Farseer! >_>

Note that in CoH, although I took a picture of the soldier, the camera was capable of rotating up high enough to be looking at nothing but sky!

So, now who wants to explain to me how DoWII is exactly the same as the other games, and that I'm just a crazy whiner? ^_^

Note that I have been able to get a bit closer to DoWII models, but only if they're on a hill or something. It's completely dependent on where they're standing, and unlike the other games, the angle never gets low enough to see a soldier's-eye view, regardless of distance.

[DemonOfWrath]

I have to agree with Rhedd, the camera feels like a huge downgrade from CoH in terms of detail, you can zoom out a bit more but you can't get anywhere near as close as you could in CoH or DoW1. Just had a check a second ago and while I could zoom in further than Rhedd could (so my Scouts and Techmarine were about twice as big or so as his Guardians and Farseer) it wouldn't zoom in as far as the above screenshots he's used as an example, nor would the camera angle go lower than about, maybe, 30 degrees (rough estimate).

In fact, here's a screenshot of what I could get.
Camera panning being checked or unchecked made no visible difference, I was using the alt key, I was doing nothing different from getting close-ups in CoH. If there's something I'm missing please tell me, I'd love to be corrected as I'd love to zoom in on the units.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a38/Marnathas/relic00001-2.jpg

[calamoide]

Same issue here, same opinion. A closer camera view would be nice, and not too difficult to add.
Scenario (like hills and buildings) do affect where you can put the camera, but I think the closest possible view is a little too far for me. :(

[Tseng_Fox]

Sad, we really can't see all the detail, because we can't zoom in.

Hopefully they increase the zoom range.

[Rhedd]

The CoH camera was perfection.

It still amazes me that they wanted more connection to your soldiers, and they did this with the camera. It's the difference between "being there" and looking at pieces on a game board.

I'll give a cupcake to anyone that can take a picture of the sky in DoWII. ^_^

And I'd love to hear a response from Ruined on the posted screenshots versus his earlier statement.

[Giant Moth]

So how can a huge fan who has been anxiously looking forward to this game hate it after literally one second of playing?

Tis the ones that stand the tallest, that always falls the hardest. :cube:

[OnlyToast]

Now this is strange. Before, I could press ALT and move the camera even further in and tilt it to eye level. Now it doesn't work anymore, after restarting the game once to start my screenshot utility, and I can only move it as far as on the screens you posted... Strange. How the heck did that happen? It was the same full 3D view as in CoH... :wtf2:

But I have to apologize, the panning option just switches back to default when clicking the minimap. ;)

(On a second note, I'm even more annoyed by this when I've checked and found a screenshot folder in the savegame directory...:-\)

[GRLSOV]

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6986/isthatcloseenoughbt2.jpg

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/4971/zoom2fe0.jpg

That's what I seem to get, doesn't look that far away...

[DougyM]

I can zoom to the same level as GRLSOV.

[OnlyToast]

GRLSOV, try to make a screen at the same point as in the other screenshot, at the upper starting point of the 1on1 jungle map...

[Tovarich]

Well there definitely seems to be a bug relating to camera zooming and paning because I too cannot get to the COH and official DoW2 screenshots level.

[Pappy13]

Isn't this what a beta is for, to give our opinions on something? I tend to agree with Rhedd that the camera is less mobile than Dawn of War. Obviously the last 2 guys are getting better results, so I have to assume that something is different. What resolution are you guys using because I also can't get anywhere close to that. Perhaps it has a lot to do with your video card capabilities or lack thereof?

[Rotlung]

Camera is less mobile. I get the Rhedd level.

Also, anyone notice you can't use backspace to restore the camera to its default position when the game is paused?

[Ifitmovesnukeit]

How close you can get to your troops with the camera seems very much tied to the terrain height that they're standing on. Or possibly the amount of buildings nearby- something definitely seems to stop the camera getting low sometimes.

[Storm]

Anyone checked gfx options?
Could just be that if people have somewhat medium-low'ish settings on, the camera could "dis-allow" you to pan your camera that low to stop lag.

On my old computor, whenever i panned low on CoH, my computor and the match started to lag somewhat badly.
Could that be why?

[Mugenjin]

yap, i swear....seem to remember that dow1 had an option in the menu which prohibited to zoom in too much. dow 2 is using a different engine though, but perhaps it's back :P

can't check myself now, since it's still d/ling which makes me a very sad panda :bored:

[GRLSOV]

Yeah, tried the jungle level now and I see what others mean.
Can't zoom as far here, it's like the camera won't come down further... :/

[LTSearchEngine]

Quick, to the bug forum!

(The official one, I mean, I don't know if they check this one.)

[Dranu]

I know it sounds silly, but ya, this camera thing is kind of a make or break thing with this game. One of the best things about COH and DOW is being able to watch it at eye level in my opinion. Im hoping this is just a beta lock since there are those beautiful screenshots at eye level that relic has showed us. I have fear though.....

[LoRd KoRn]

It's a bug, in a beta...
People found it and Relic will hopefully fix it.

Actually I would prefer a zoom factor of knee level with the possibility to look up to towering units like the Avatar of walkers, with the sky in the background. Makes for great screenshots and fan made movies. In DoW the effort for that wasn't that big actually but people can spend just as much time watching replays and taking uber pics as playing, so I think Relic should not miss on that one eventhough it might seam secondary at first.

[Dranu]

Yup, I know I did KoRn, one of the things that hooked me were the visuals in DOW I

[Rhedd]

For the record, I find that if I'm careful about which map I pick, and where I put my unit, and experiment a bit, I can get screenshots like GRLSOV, too. They are the exception, though. Most of the time this game has as much intimacy as Warcraft III.

And I still don't see a sky in those shots. (Unlike dozens of promo shots that are supposedly made with a perfectly normal camera.) No cupcake for you! ^_^

By all means post the heck out of this on the bug forum. I will too. But know that this isn't so much of a beta to work out bugs as it is fan service, and a balancing test. The game is gold, and I'll bet anything that the camera in the beta is the camera that's been tested and the camera that's in the game.

I've played the game quite a bit more, now, and I'm afraid I'm with Dranu. It's a deal-breaker. I rather like the game, so far, (especially commander wargear!) but it doesn't matter if I can't see any of it, and if I can't get "in" to the game.

The thing that makes DoW infinitely better than TT 40K is that it's alive, letting you see a 40K battlefield as if it were actually happening, instead of just looking down on a gaming board. If I'm going to look down on DoW and see tiny little guys run around, (just like every other boring RTS out there) I'll save my fifty bucks.

Hey, Ruined! Take me a picture of a sky, please! ^_^

[GRLSOV]

Well, it shouldn't be too hard to get fixed in a patch.

I hope. :p

[ZimZum]

I agree on the camera, you can't pan to horizontal and the terrain height stops you from zooming down most of the time.

Funnily enough being able to get down at eye level to experience visceral frontline combat was a marketing line for DoW1. Who the christ spends time and money making their game ten times prettier than the previous one then kills the camera.

[Busby]

Hmm. I think the problem might be the mountains surrounding the maps, they might be tricking the camera into believing its going to clip terrain so it refuses to go down lower. But that's just random speculation on my part.

[Supernaut]

Camera has worked perfectly for me in all scenarios, I can get up close and spin the camera + pretty much everything you said you couldn't do I could.

[Dranu]

Did you look at the earlier posts Supernaut? We said u can do all thoses camera spin etc, we are just saying most of the time the camera is comperable to Warcraft III and not COH or DOW, you can't get at eye level (or better like COH) except in very rare parts of a map. In otherwords (if this is the final camera) it is a whole lot less dynamic than those previous two titles.

Oh and Zimzum, my thoughts exactly.

[Knight_Kin]

I have the same issue with the camera too, i really wanted to zoom in to see my Force Commander decked out in Ultramarine gear (like i used to do in dow 1 and coh) but nooooo i was denied :P

[Rhedd]

Camera has worked perfectly for me in all scenarios, I can get up close and spin the camera + pretty much everything you said you couldn't do I could.Take.
A picture.
Of the.
SKY.

Like THIS (http://images.mmosite.com/my/upload/0d/7e/arthas411/08/0610/20080610172234_746.jpg).

Go on. I dare you. ^_^

[Supernaut]

Give me a few minutes and I'll attempt to :D


*edit*
So I had a brainfart, your right you can't get the camera down to the floor like in the other screens.

Blame not reading the thread and rampant fanboyism. :p

Still though, it's not a problem really...

[Tovarich]

I guess this minor issue will be fixed in the next update, it's only a matter of tweaking the CAMERA.LUA for Relic.

[Rhedd]

Still though, it's not a problem really...Really!? Oh, good. That's great to know!

I'm perfectly happy with the camera now and don't feel like I'm playing a five-year-old boardgame and going blind anymore. Thank you!

... Oh, wait... I disagree. ^_^


I guess this minor issue will be fixed in the next update, it's only a matter of tweaking the CAMERA.LUA for Relic.Yep. It seems like the sort of thing that'd be super easy to change.

And when that gets done, I'll consider preordering the game. ^_^

[LoRd KoRn]

The thing is all DoW had so many issues that could have been fixed by changing number in a .lua file, still Relic never did it. It was always up to the community, but now that modding is somewhat denied we are completely dependent on Relic fixing issues.

[Arkandea]

^ The reason this camera is an issue is cause DoW 2 is supposed to be a 'combination' if you will of DoW and CoH. So we kinda expected a fluent camera, just like in both those titles. Since it seems kinda fiddly it's harder to enjoy the game in a "soldiers perspective" or take screenies etc.

[Dranu]

To answer your question, however, I would use that view CONSTANTLY. Get it? CONSTANTLY. Not being able to control the camera like we always could in the past totally ruins the game for me. Not a slight annoyance, but completely ruins an otherwise decent (although not great) game. Not everyone plays the way you do, and not everyone likes what you like. Agreed, the camera is a MAJOR factor for me as well. It is one of the big things that sets DOW and COH apart from other RTSs, the beautiful visuals that you can spend hours watching in replays. I know Im not the only one who greatly loves the visual aspect.

[Liljagare]

Go and report it, so far, I'm the only one that has posted a actual bug report on it.. :P

[Aerundel]

I think "caring" about the game goes hand in hand with not being so flippant as to write a "one-second review" based on something as trivial as a camera issue. And not just any camera issue, but one that doesn't actually affect the gameplay!

Being able to swing the camera down to the horizontal axis offers no extra tactical information when playing, it's purely cosmetic. Great, you've reported it as an issue that does not gel with the previous games. That's done. You even got a response from a THQ employee. The discussion has pretty much played itself out, and now you get posts about trolling, etc., because people are getting sick of it.

[Warp Holder]

So you hate a BETA because you can't zoom low enough?
It's nice that players stopped caring about the menial stuff like gameplay and balance and begin to worry about the gamebreaking things like how low can the camera zoom.

[Mekztra]

It would be nice if the camera had more freedom, though. God knows the engine they've built is pretty enough to warrant it on the higher settings.

[Ace651]

good for you liljagare. thats all rhedd should have done... hes getting crucified for being all drama about it.

i agree that sometimes you can zoom in very closely, and sometimes you don't have that ability at all. its odd.

[Whelp]

After playing the beta for already too many hours, I must say this game is turning out pretty damn good, different camera be damned.

[Riddley]

It's kinda funny, but in rhedd's post (#12), the DOW screen actually looks better than the dow 2 screen...especially the interface, as it's designed to reflect the eldar.

Oh well.

[Croaxleigh]

Insulting people and making accusations aren't what this forum is for. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and if they don't match up with yours there is no reason to call them names or insinuate that there's anything wrong with the way they prefer to play. Got it?

[KPMaker]

Whoa whoa whoa, why in the world do peps jump the gun and cry “CHEESE” when someone brings up a good point.

I actually agree in that the camera is limited compared to DoW & CoH. You cannot get on the same Horizontal level as the units or go to ground level and look up.

Relic please fix…..


Thank you.

[Dranu]

Ya, I for one am not complaining about game play, I rather like it. I do, however, have a big soft spot for DOW and COH due greatly to the beauty of the game (which this present camera hinders)

I just want to see it fixed. I want DOWII to succeed, not fail, I'm a huge fanboy, and this frightens my fanboyish nature ;).

[Scooter]

My initial impressions; I like it.

The small maps encourage conflict from within the first 15 seconds.

There is tons of potential for different strats and effective micro because of
a) All the different unit abilities.
b) All the different wargear combinations.
c) The relatively flat tech tree, making fast-tech strats a possibility.

Only played a handful of games, mostly vs the comp, but there will be a lot of learning here to figure out how to play this game well. At least as much as COH, I think.

[Viper114]

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1140/screentv8.jpg

This is how low I could get it, too. Maybe Relic will allow completely horizontal shots in the full game or shortly in the future.

[Shuma]

I'll get a pic later, 'cause i dunno what you're doing but it's quite simple to zoom in by rotating the mouse wheel and using the Alt key.

[EPIK WIN]

the pics im seeing from people is the level of zoom I get WITHOUT using the alt key.

[Viper114]

The shot I took above is zoomed out all of the way, with the camera panned down as far as it can with the ALT key. The beta does not allow a completely horizontal view of the battlefield. Whether this will also be the case of the full game will have to be seen later.

[Dranu]

Nah Epik, Viper114 and the rest are fully tilted WITH the alt key. Try it out yourself. There are rare places on the map you can almost get to the level you could with COH or DOW, but only almost.

[Viper114]

It may be just a restriction for the beta. Maybe the full game will allow full horizontal camera views for those cool screenshots...

[Dranu]

Ya I really hope so, that still brings me back to the old games. .....Yes, the camera angle (well with kill syncs and the 40k setting ;)).

[Rhedd]

It may be just a restriction for the beta. Maybe the full game will allow full horizontal camera views for those cool screenshots...Why?

I mean really, why?

That's just wishful thinking and you know it. There's no reason in the world for anyone to go to the trouble of editing the camera settings from what they were during testing, just for the beta, just to annoy the people who care, and then go to the trouble of changing it back for the final game.

No. Report it as a bug, or complain loudly now, or it'll be exactly like this in the final release.

[EPIK WIN]

I tried out alt key and I got really close... like REALLY close... I think a scout took up the entire center of my screen.

I don't know what it is about my settings that are different, but alt works well for me.

I would post a screen but I'm lazy and don't feel like it :nyah:

[Viper114]

Oh, I can zoom in REALLY close to things, too, but it's not possible to put the camera parallel to the ground for a horizontal shot.

[EPIK WIN]

I see what you mean now. The camera doesnt get completely parallel to the ground, still at about a 10 degree angle or so. I was still able to get a decent screenie. Would post but i have no idea where these things get saved.

[Viper114]

I just use Prnt Scrn and then paste into a graphics program like Paint.

[Rhedd]

EPIK, you're off by about 20 degrees. :P I'm guessing a minimum camera angle of about 30. Anyway, take a picture that shows the sky like the promo screenshots and you can be the first to win a cupcake! Any flavor! ^_^

As for getting really close shots, yeah you can... sometimes. Go start a game on Siwal Frontier and try it.

Since nobody's going to win the cupcake for a sky picture, let's hold another contest... A cupcake (they're getting a bit stale) to anyone that can state a reason that limiting the minimum angle and height of the camera is a good thing. Something that would make someone at a dev meeting say, "yeah, that's a great idea, let's take the time to do that, instead of leaving it how it's always been before".

I'm going to be eating all these stale cupcakes by myself, aren't I?

[Paladin]

I have a better idea... How about you stop whining like you got the final game and it was broken. This is a beta. Try to be a little bit constructive mmkay?

[Rhedd]

No cupcake for you!

So why do you think we have a beta, if it's not to give feedback?

You run along and complain about the things you don't like, and I'll complain about the things I don't like.

Okay, constructive... "Fix the damned camera, already. Just leave it the way it was. It won't hurt anyone."

See, I'm actually enjoying the game, apart from the camera, which drives me nuts every second of every game, so here we are. Giving feedback.

Whining is what you call another person's feedback. :P

[Paladin]

Let me put it this way: If you had said, "Hey, the camera doesn't seem to move as freely as in previous games, is this intended, because it bugs me and will probably be a turn off to others." then people would not have jumped on you.

Be polite, don't assume that things are intentional changes when they might just be bugs, etc. Also, you're an idiot. You're assuming they intentionally changed the feature, because it's different from the other games, thus they must have expended effort to make it different. It doesn't work like that, this is a new engine. They didn't use the old code ffs.

PS: Post bugs in the bugs forum, not here kthxbai.

[Rhedd]

I should really let someone else point out to you that it's the exact same engine used for Company of Heroes, so I might not be the only idiot around here, but I'll go ahead and tell you.

Ever play CoH? It's got the same camera as DoW1 (only better).

The camera being locked past 30 degrees isn't a bug, it isn't an accident, and it isn't made that way just to piss off the beta testers. Either it's already been changed for the final release, (which I doubt, since according to THQ it seems to have been changed from an earlier version, which wasn't limited) or Relic needs to hear that it's a big deal.

You'll note I'm far from the only person who has mentioned this as a serious annoyance, and it's actually only a small minority that's "jumped on me". Most agree that the camera is just stupid.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, though. I'll try to be more polite next time. >_>

[Paladin]

Note that I'm not disagreeing with your point. In fact, NO ONE in this thread has said that it shouldn't be changed. Your tone is my issue. You need a serious attitude adjustment.

[Jager]

The camera has been tuned for 0-day to allow closer zooming.

[Supernaut]

exact same engine used for Company of HeroesExcept it's not, it is Essence 2.0 - it was built upon the original engine used by CoH. It is by no means the exact same engine.

[Kirjava]

The camera has been tuned for 0-day to allow closer zooming.Problem solved!

[GRLSOV]

On 0-day, we can zoom into the Force Commander's nostrils so everyone's happy. :p

[Xerkics]

my main beef is that we lost all the strategic options and the wonderfull ai that was in COH. It would have been better just to take COH maps and just put DOW2 units there , im really missing towns with massed buildings trenches etc etc how squads dont just stand there but seek active cover.

[EPIK WIN]

@Rhedd

I never claimed to be good at geometry :) :spin:

[Supernaut]

Xerkics - Squads do exactly what you claim they don't.

[Xerkics]

Well a game just now i had : my warriors were upgraded were venom cannons and when engaged in melee they were just trying to shoot the orcs rather than switch to claws. Also neither termagaunts or warriors etc will move into cover near them the squads will just sit wherever you move them without actually trying to move into cover.

[Dranu]

The camera has been tuned for 0-day to allow closer zooming. Heheh, pardon but what exactly does this mean and how do you know 'this'?

Does that mean we can tilt the camera a full 90 degrees too like in DOW I? ooooo I hope so.

[Rhedd]

The camera has been tuned for 0-day to allow closer zooming. Seriously, Jager says this out of the blue, and everybody goes, "oh, good. Problem solved."

What source does this come from? There's nothing to suggest that it's not just a totally random statement.

[NoneSuch]

Seriously, Jager says this out of the blue, and everybody goes, "oh, good. Problem solved."

What source does this come from? There's nothing to suggest that it's not just a totally random statement.

He works for relic

[Dranu]

He works for relicAwesome. So does closer zoom include more panoramic viewing with a camera that can tilt at least as much as DOW I?

[Rhedd]

He works for relicReally? Wonder why he doesn't have a Relic tag on his name, then.

Odd, but I'll just go ahead and take this as fact, then. Cool!

Let's just hope that "closer" is "CoH close", not just a "bit" closer. ^_^

[Jager]

This is actually being pushed out "soon" (before 0-day), so you can all check it out for yourselves.

[Dranu]

"soon" (before 0-day)Greatness thnx for info Jager, I'll withold my comments on the camera tilt until then I guess.

[Viper114]

Will it allow us to see the battlefield with the camera completely parallel to the ground, or will there still be a slight angle?

[Rhedd]

This is actually being pushed out "soon" (before 0-day), so you can all check it out for yourselves.Oh, awesome!

That'd be great, thanks.

I'm sure many players think I'm crazy for feeling this way, but it's hard for me to judge the overall quality of the game when the camera annoys me so constantly. (I think I like it a lot, though! ^_^)

Note: Jager really does work for Relic, by the way. ^_^

[BalanceSheet]

Hey, anyone else's camera working properly now? I've been having the problem, but Steam updated the beta and now I can see the sky again. :D

[Jager]

Indeed, the latest patch is live and it includes the camera change. Let us know what you think.

[Rhedd]

Wow, that was fast! I'll go play some!

Outside transformer blew and I've been without power this evening. :P

[Viper114]

Hmm, I guess I'll give it a shot next time I load it up.

[Tovarich]

Hmm it's better but there still is some weird thing going on with the ground, the camera angle often won't get to "feet" level as if there was some kind of invisible force blocking the path. I'm a bit worried because I wonder how this will affect the Cinematic Mode for replay viewing...

[Falaris]

One second review:
Played a lot.
Good game, both it and I got better.
Wonder, what are the hotkeys?

[Rhedd]

A big improvement, and definitely a step in the right direction, but... (here comes the beta feedback. ^_^)

It's still inferior to the CoH camera, which I know is do-able. Even with the new camera, we won't be looking up at a towering Avatar, or a tall Imperial statue, for instance.

Note that in the following screenshot, the red line shows the horizon. Interestingly, DoW1 and CoH are almost exactly the same (although that's a bit of a coincidence, since in CoH you can look almost straight up), while in the very best of situations, DoWII is still limited, and the horizon is higher due to the allowed camera angle. It's just sort of off-putting when you're used to the games that came before it.

(Notice also that the CoH camera is at about waist-height, instead of eye-height, which allows you to see better over the interface. Nice!)

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/RheddnAllie/WH40K/DoWangles.jpg

Still, the new camera would be passable... if it worked correctly, which it doesn't seem to, at the moment.

Here's what Tovarich was talking about, with pictures:

Started a game on Siwal Frontier (which is the worst of the maps, camera-wise). At the starting point, I lowered the camera all the way and rotated it all the way. This is the best view I could get of my Force commander:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/RheddnAllie/WH40K/relic00006-1.jpg

Move the camera a bit away, up the hill, however, and I could get this view, which is more the way it should be:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/RheddnAllie/WH40K/relic00007.jpg

Siccaris Plateau is even weirder.

Again, with the camera fully zoomed and fully rotated, here's my FC at the starting point:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/RheddnAllie/WH40K/relic00009.jpg

And without changing the camera settings, here he is a few game-meters away:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/RheddnAllie/WH40K/relic00010.jpg

And, oddly, a few more meters away:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/RheddnAllie/WH40K/relic00011.jpg
What happened there? ^_^ The camera rotated down all on its own and all I can see is boots.

I really appreciate the (very prompt!) effort, and I'm no longer complaining. Just giving feedback.

Is there some reason that the camera can't work exactly as it did in CoH? Aren't the two engines perfectly similar in that regard?

I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just curious. The (very prompt) effort to fix this issue shows you guys care, and I really appreciate it. The present camera still requires some work before it's up to Relic standards, though.

Oh, and as a minor bug, Green Tooth Jungle doesn't have a sky. Nobody could notice, before! ^_^

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/RheddnAllie/WH40K/relic00012.jpg

Even with its wonky-ness, I'm looking forward to playing with the new camera. Keep up the good work!


---

[BalanceSheet]

@Jager

Thank you guys for dealing with this problem so quickly. This issue had been the make-or-break point for me, and I'm now looking forward to picking up a copy on the release date. :)

[Viper114]

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/849/newanglefh8.jpg

This is how I could get it now. This should keep those camera angle fetishists happy.

Now, for some actual balance changes...

[Tovarich]

Well I believe the cause of that "invisible force" must be that line from the camera.lua :


--The camera will never go below this height above the terrain
MinimumHeightAboveTerrain = 2

[Rhedd]

Tovarich, I assume you're looking at the CoH camera.lua, right? There isn't a way yet of messing with the DoWII beta luas, is there?

[Tovarich]

No this is from the DoW2 camera.lua but there isn't any way of messing with the beta, just a way to look at the files.

[Dranu]

still is some weird thing going on with the ground, the camera angle often won't get to "feet" level as if there was some kind of invisible force blocking the path. Ya in single player maps there is a bug around the edges that still prevents soem zoom like Rhedd mentioned.


Thank you guys for dealing with this problem so quickly. This issue had been the make-or-break point for me, and I'm now looking forward to picking up a copy on the release dateSame here, but I would have prob gotten it just because it was 40k, but now Im thrilled!


It's still inferior to the CoH camera, which I know is do-able. Even with the new camera, we won't be looking up at a towering Avatar, or a tall Imperial statue, for instance.Ya, and I agree with the rest of what you posted. I am also happy now, so I am just giving my nitpicking/feedback Relic ;)

[Jager]

Don't give me credit for this fix as in this case I'm just a bearer of news -- thank the dev team who are doing an incredible job and probably (certainly) losing a lot of sleep over what you guys are saying =P

[gb2006]

Slight bump

I'm very glad to see a thread solely dedicated to improving the camera which was a huge part of my enjoyment of DoW1.

However there is a further aspect to this that nobody has mentioned. I haven't downloaded the Beta - could somebody tell me if it you can invert the y-axis? You could in DoW1 but you couldn't in CoH. What is the situation in DoW2?

For the moment I'll simply say that this is extremely important to me and all the other poor souls whose minds have become conditioned over the years to play games with the y-axis inverted. It's one of the first things I do when I set-up a game.

[Rhedd]

Slight bump? heh ^_^

No, I'm afraid you can't invert the Y axis. Sorry.

The new camera still isn't up to CoH standards, but even if Relic doesn't get it together by release, it looks like our fine modding community will give us the tools to make it a five-minute fix.

[gb2006]

Hello Rhedd, thanks for your reply and for your campaigning efforts thus far.

Argh, I feared as much. Oh well, I'll state my position and hopefully someone from Relic will read it.

Why is being able to invert the y-axis so important to me? Well, it's the legacy of using a joystick when I was younger I guess. After 20 years of playing games this way, this is how my brain is now wired. Sure I can play the game entirely from the default view but when I want to use the ALT key to change to a different perspective, it is a frustrating, slow, annoying experience because the camera keeps going down/up when I want to look up/down. I tried playing CoH and believe it or not, gave up, solely because of this issue.

From the very beginning of CoH people were requesting that this option appear in a patch but it never did. This is why I am getting in as early as possible to stop this same situation repeating itself with DoW2.

It is a mystery to me that a company will spend years making a game and years supporting a game with patches and responding to endless cries of IMBA!!!1 but omit something so simple that has such a profound impact on playing the game for a significant number of people. I can't quote figures but you can tell from searching the forum/internet how the lack of this seemingly trivial thing makes games unplayable for a certain proportion of people. It really is a basic set-up option every game should have.

I have faith in DoW modders but I was surprised that nobody had made a "invert y-axis" mod for CoH. I guess it is some sort of tribute to human perversity that people would prefer to spend months working on a top-to-bottom conversion rather than an hour or two creating a mod that does something so simple and useful.

Okay, I've said my piece. Fingers crossed :-\

[Rhedd]

I tried playing CoH and believe it or not, gave up, solely because of this issue. Oh, I believe it.

The camera and the interface are incredibly important. They're basically your virtual eyes and hands.

It doesn't matter how good a game is if the camera or interface make every moment of playing it an uncomfortable struggle.

I don't share your passion for the Y axis thing, but I stopped playing the beta until the camera angle was improved. There just wasn't any point, for me, so I understand.

[Supernaut]

I'm fairly sure the camera has been updated, I was messing around with it today and it's more flexible as you might say.

[Rhedd]

It was updated on Jan 9th. Not since.

[Dranu]

Ya Camera still has the bug of having zoom limited on maps with terrain elevation. I think if they fix that terrain elevation bug, it'll be good. Though, I would probably still think the COH camera was better, at least it would be DOWI quality.

[Tovarich]

Yeah ,we need someone who's had a good experience with the camera.lua values from CoH to "mod" us a preview ! ^_^

[Dranu]

I'd prefer relic fixes it, but at least we can hope for that.