Tactical marine squad size?

[scope2006]

Just my thoughts on the tactical marine squad size, I feel as though they are too small in the early game at 3 men. The bolters dont seem to do much damage and they don't hold too well against larger numbers.

The cost in req. compared to what you get isn't very good value either... I think the squad size needs to be at least 4 man non-upgraded.

Anyone else agree?

[archaon376]

No. But don't worry, a lot of people have conflicting arguments when it comes to this game, strangely enough. I think bolters do enough damage and the Space Marines are able to endure a fair amount of firepower.

Add a sergeant if you want 4 men.

[scope2006]

No. But don't worry, a lot of people have conflicting arguments when it comes to this game, strangely enough. I think bolters do enough damage and the Space Marines are able to endure a fair amount of firepower.

Add a sergeant if you want 4 men.

I would have personally said 5 including the sgt. I find that 3 man tacticals are easilly bested by most ork units which are large in number.

I am finding them a bit useless and assault and dread spam is the order of the day I feel.

[Oakwarrior]

"most ork units which are large in number"

Tacs aren't melee.

[Saberdark]

Neither are shootas.

I agree, Assaults are way better for only slightly more Req. Either the cost of tacticals needs to be reduced, or they need to add another man to the squad.

[DNA61289]

tacs are suppose to be the backbone of a SM army and right now their bolters are dealing enough damage.

[LTSearchEngine]

Tactical marines are very decent. If they could side-tech between weapons, they'd be all set. Those 3 guys put out a lot of ranged hurt, and are tough as nails in cover.

The only problem is gibbing. I think they should be more resistant to damage once they've hit retreat: their high value coupled with small squad size makes retreating at two men a necessity - what if the high health one gets gibbed? The low health one probably won't survive the retreat as it is now.

(Flamer to ML and back, for a cost the first time they switch)

[archaon376]

I would have personally said 5 including the sgt. I find that 3 man tacticals are easilly bested by most ork units which are large in number.

I am finding them a bit useless and assault and dread spam is the order of the day I feel.
Stick a Tac. Squad behind cover and let them open fire on incoming Sluggas. Every time I've been in this situation I've taken no casualties and either wiped them out (if they're newb) or inflicted severe damage.

Don't be afraid to dance around or fall back to cover if you see incoming enemies.

Also, they are extremely versatile and able to quickly equip the necessary special weapon to deal with most situations. See an incoming tank? Slap on a missile launcher.

[scope2006]

I will definately bare that in mind archaon, maybe I just havn't had enough time to tech them up and get good use out of them, they die more often than not before I can get a Sgt. attached.

I still think they need another guy though to reflect the req cost.

We shall see anyway early days yet, early days...

[stratigo]

Tac squads are too expensive. There is no incentive to get them over HBs or ASMs. Many much cheaper units slaughter them.

[archaon376]

I will agree they are a little too expensive. I think 450 ought to be the max.

[Xiathorn]

Personally I'd disagree that Tacs are underpowered, it's more that there's simply no reason to get them over ASMs, except if you need AT support - although the cost of the AT support in terms of power makes it less viable than upgrading your ASM squads with carry Melta bombs.

Tacs are able to put out a decent amount of firepower, but for their cost they need their melee improved - in the original DoW a 4 man squad of Tac marines could kick the crap out of 6-7 orks in melee, assuming no reinforce (Orks reinforced faster). A tac marine squad should both outshoot and out melee a shootaz squad, but be more expensive. A 4th squad member might mitigate all of this if the cost was retained, but then I feel they'd be doing a bit too much damage in terms of shooting.

Currently, as it is, there is absolutely no reason to buy Tac marines. Heavy Bolter -> ASM -> ASM/tech works much better, and changing one of those out for a tac marine squad just slows down you getting the next ASM/whatever, and is also less useful than any of the above squads.

[archaon376]

The problem with using ASM as anti-armour is that you have to get them right in there, and if it's a heavily guarded position then they're going to get chewed up quick.

[daemonn789]

Just my thoughts on the tactical marine squad size, I feel as though they are too small in the early game at 3 men. The bolters dont seem to do much damage and they don't hold too well against larger numbers.

The cost in req. compared to what you get isn't very good value either... I think the squad size needs to be at least 4 man non-upgraded.

Anyone else agree?

Yea... no.

Tac squads are great for 500 req.

[stratigo]

tac squads are not great for 500. Every far cheaper CC unit will slaughter them. And again, really no reason to take them over heavy bolters or ASMs. ASMs rip things up in CC and HBs are fire support. Tac squads do neither well enough to forgo either of them. By the time a missile launcher is useful you'll have a dreadnought. No reason to buy tactical marines.

[daemonn789]

tac squads are not great for 500. Every far cheaper CC unit will slaughter them. And again, really no reason to take them over heavy bolters or ASMs. ASMs rip things up in CC and HBs are fire support. Tac squads do neither well enough to forgo either of them. By the time a missile launcher is useful you'll have a dreadnought. No reason to buy tactical marines.

Alright Fan Boi. Then dont buy them if you personally feel they are waste.

For 500 req and the option to upgrade them to be Anti-Infantry, Anti-Vehicle, and Anti-Swarm... pretty damn good.

Go get some friends, play against each other and test out unit strengths. A tac marine squad wins against Slugga Boyz in melee. They win against guardians in range. Hormaguants in melee. Termagaunts in range. Shoota boyz in range. Don't take my word for it though, JUST GO DO IT.

I don't think you know what you are talking about, tbh. It sounds like you've lost a bunch of games as SM and this is just a result of that.

[Supernaut]

Every far cheaper CC unit will slaughter themI'd expect my CC unit to counter a Ranged specialist squad if I got close enough to kill them.

[stratigo]

When you start with personal insults most people think less of you. This isn't space battles forums where you can rage your way to victory.

hormagaunts are 270 req. And every time I've used them they slaughter unupgraded tac squads in cc.

in fact all of those squads are are much cheaper then tac squads. Of course guardians have a similar problem to tacs, but at least their cost doesn't make them so bad.

I've only lost my first game with marines. The rest of the tiume I've beaten all my opponents. But I do so without any tac squads (Occaisionaly one tac squad). Because they are not good enough. They don't act as a good counter to anything, because the space marine army just has better choices.

[Pocktio]

A tac marine squad wins against Slugga Boyz in melee. They win against guardians in range. Hormaguants in melee. Termagaunts in range. Shoota boyz in range. Don't take my word for it though, JUST GO DO IT.

I hightlighted the bits that are wrong. The rest are too, but I've not specifically tried them. Are you talking about a fully upgraded tac, in cover, with heavy weapons and a seargent or what? General assumptions ignoring the context of the situation are meaningless.

[Noble]

daemonn789: Stop calling people fanbois. If you can't post without calling people names don't post at all.

[scope2006]

daemonn789: Stop calling people fanbois. If you can't post without calling people names don't post at all.

This is the reason why I was reluctant to open this thread to start with, there is some good discussion going on about value for money with tacs, what works etc. which I want definately.

But I dont want to see people arguing against peoples opinions with "omg they r overpowerzed, ur a noob", and having mine or anyone elses opinion trashed...

or vice versa.

Anyways, I think the opinions of everyone so far are pretty valid, I am finding HB devs much more usefull than 3 man tac squads.

For the price of a set of tac's I expect them to be able to shoot pretty well, and if needs be hold out in CC long enough for me to bring in the appropriate counter. They shouldn't be glass cannons, if keeping them in cover is the strategy then Devestators may as well be the way to go...

They need to be that backbone troop I feel, the core of the army that is good at shooting, can hold its own in melee - but master of neither.

That or add another member so they can soak a bit more damage outside of cover while you build ASM.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Glass cannons? Check tac HP sometime. Heavy Bolter squads are glass cannons, tacs arn't.

I've found tacs great. They are expensive, but they have high health and great ranged firepower. More to the point they can dance tactically and heavy bolter squads cant. They can deal with surprises. They can deal with infiltrators. They can deal with commanders, especially those the HB squads have trouble with like Warp Spider, Ravener, Lictor.

They're the best skirmishers and battle infantry in the game. They do have a disadvantage against basic melee infantry but that's fine because they can shoot them from range. And then pull back (unlike heavy weapons teams).

And they are just that much better when you level them up. And you can get a missile launcher immediately when you need it.

[alisbin]

if the problem is survivability for cost, yet they do enough ranged, how about this. increase their number to 4 (not including sarge) and reduce their ranged damage so the 4 do the same amount of dps as the 3 do now. leave melee damage alone, so they are more competent in melee and they have a bit survivability. done

[Saberdark]

After playing a few more games, tacticals are ok, but still too expensive IMO. A slight cost reduction may be in order, but other than that they seem decently capable.

[Scooter]

Flamer tacs work great vs tyrannid squads.
And a missile tac is fantastic mobile AT weaponry.
Melta bombs suck. They have a like a 5 second countdown - I've yet to hurt anything seriously with a melta bomb. (except myself; melta bomb a tank, it backs away, and your asms chase it into the melta bomb's path).

Its like thinking that paratrooper satchel charges in COH were an AT weapon.

Letting tacs change heavy weapon sideways (ie, research multiples, switch back and forth between whichever one you need) would be great, but woudl probably make them too strong.

[Shuma]

Never had a problem with them, i think they're too weak for 500 req, 2 hormas and 1 terma squad utterly destroy them, withouth synapse. Venom Canons rip them to shreds, Warriors in CC win easily, and the hive tyrant, well, y'know.

[Illiandri2]

Tacs in my opinion are exactly how I expected them to be: versatile, good ranged, decent durability and yet slightly expensive but is not expensive the trademark of the astartes? In a period of 3 minutes i was able to outmaneuver 1 hb and 1 shuriken squad and with some help from a techmarine nearly take down a FC. I do believe though that a grenade upgrade would be very useful for them.

[Shuma]

Too bad they can't outmanuver the hormagaunts surrounding them. I just don't think that they're worth 500 req, they should either cost less or be stronger.

[Illiandri2]

Ah but that is were the shotgun comes in. While homies are on your tacs bring in the shotguns and disrupt the little bastards. People underestimate the power of a well placed shotgun squad. Saying so, as i said above, i believe a grenade upgrade with mostly disruptive power would be quite useful.

[Hirmetrium]

I think that they need an extra squad member (1 marine) or offset their cost/output ratio, or a cost reduction. Its not to do with the size, but merely the fact they are overpriced for what they do. Your better off with a devestator squad early in the game, mixed with scouts.

[Saberdark]

Sure shotsguns and tacticals are a good combo, but so are 3 squads of scouts with shotguns.

Yeah, devs and scouts are way better, and cheaper to boot.

[Servius]

I agree that Tac squads need 1 more guy for the price. I could have sworn that, in the SP campaign, all SM units are capped at 3 (including Sgt.?) but the Tacs get 4.

ASMs are slightly more expensive, and do require Power, but for that you get
* Faster unit (when they jump. They run just as slow as every other SM unit)
* Melta bombs (superior to MLs in that they don't miss and stick to their target I think)
* Strong melee (pronounce may-lay, not me-lay)

The only thing you lose is the ranged attack, which seems pretty easy to negate with melee.

[Hirmetrium]

its very possible that the balance team originally tried to use the 4 man squad idea, 5 at tier 2, and it just became too powerful. I could see it causing an issues not at tier 1, with the cost, but at tier 2 with heavy weapons and the sergeant arriving.

Still, I think unless something is changed on tacticals drastically their moving to become the weakest race, simply because they have no backbone (like termonaunts, sluggas and guardians) which is readily being produced. I'd much rather tech and spend all my req on gens and predators/dreads in a team game.

[Chaplin717]

Maybe I am coming at it from the wrong angle, but I feel the Space Marines in general should be more resilient. I don't want an extra guy thrown in, or more hit points, or lower cost, but rather feel like they should be able to take lower damage weapons better.

I have no idea if some sort of "armor" value exists in the game, but I would like to see the marines have a better chance to not take damage from small arms. Not only from a lore/ table top stand point, but also to be true to its DoW1 roots. If you shoot a simple shirken rifle or shoota at a marine he should have a chance to not take damage. If you shoot a plasma rifle or big shoota then they will go down fast.

One of the few things I am not liking as much in DoW2 is that all the units "feel" the same. Obviously they are different. They have different abilities, hit points, etc, but I am not feeling like there is any kind of armor or weapon penetration values. And that is what I would like to see tinkered with to give the tactical marines (and all SM) more value.