Let's talk heavy weapons

[troglodytejb]

Heavy weapons. Rapidly becoming a metagame favorite, and punishing to a new player. Unfortunately, these things are wildly inconsistent and frankly aren't doing what they're supposed to. Let's take a look on a case-by-case basis, shall we?

Devastators/Shuriken platforms:
The T1 HMGs. Superfast suppression, superfast kills. These weapons are powerful to the point that they're negating other units-- a SM player is almost certainly better off building a Devastator squad and following up with ASM spam than building a single tac.

What are the problems with these units? First, the setup time and movement speed. Neither unit appears to be any slower than their basic infantry counterpart, and the setup time is quite swift-- even with FoF it's difficult to close from their max range to melee before they can set up. What this means is that these units are being used as offensive units rather than zone-control or defensive units, which wouldn't necessarily be a problem if their damage wasn't so high.

As it stands, there's little emphasis on combined arms-- a single HMG can annihilate an enemy army, so there's no reason to suppress with an HMG and then flank. Again, not necessarily a bad thing, but taken as a whole the units are actively negating other options for their respective races.

My suggestions: slightly reduce move speed, slightly increase setup time. This prevents offensive use. In addition, reduce damage to suppressed units. This would force close-ranged attackers to move in and finish off the suppressed units. Finally, to counter these nerfs, suppressed units should move slightly slower than they do now. This would force combined arms, and also reduce the ability to use the weapon teams as an offensive force in their own right.

Devastator Plasma:
As it stands right now, the devastator plasma team is good, but redundant. It hurts vehicles, but only if they're stock still. If you treat it as artillery against infantry, it's great-- but it doesn't suppress and it doesn't kill significantly faster than a heavy bolter devastator team.

My suggestion: Give it a second mode where it fires like a standard AT gun, with a faster projectile and less splash damage. As it stands, SM have no area control against vehicles, and this could fill this role without removing the artillery option.

Lootas:
Certainly useful, but as a T2 unit, it's much LESS useful than either of the T1 HMGs. You can't get early map control with them, and they're actually less tough than a T1 devastator squad. Beamy Deffguns are nice, but expensive and a manual upgrade.

In addition, many Ork players won't field these at all, since Slugga Waaagh! spam is VERY effective against anything but vehicles.

My suggestion: increase power cost slightly, and have them default to Beamy Deffgun, with an upgrade to Deffgun. By T2, you're more likely to need the AT than the AP, and again, AT zone control can be key.

Brightlance:
I actually like this unit a lot, although a slower setup, much like all of these units, might be nice.

Anyone else have any thoughts on these? I'm trying not to "NERF SUPPRESSION LOL!11!!!", but these units need to be looked at so that Eldar in particular are more than their Shurikens.

[Hugdealer]

well the dev squad has focus fire addon to purchase.

i think all suppression units should deal suppression at medium and long ranges, and lots of damage only at short. If you want to deal the damage, you should have to turn on focus fire and that terminates the suppression portion.

there should be a need to use dev squads to suppress and bring another squad in to finish. or after you suppress, you use focus fire.

[Zephris]

I'm sorry I totally disagree that Dev's are all that are needed, I've played against SM players as an SM myself, and if they build nothing but Dev's I just start laughing at them because I know its a free win.

My strat >
Build 2-3X Scout marines, start capping immedietly get power up get some shotguns and start moving about while cloaked, flank however many Dev/Shurikan plats are setup and blast them to pieces while watching my Zeal bar go up.

Dev's have their place but are stupidly easy to counter early game if you put some thought into it, same with shuriken plats.
If you don't believe me then please do try it.

[Sturmtruppen]

Heya, troglodyte, still havnt figured out the whole steam stuff.. were u able to add me? lol

[Pexo]

Well I think the two Devastator Squad should be merged. They could start with 1 heavy bolter, on Tier 2 you could give them a plasma cannon, on Tier 3 maybe another HB or PC. In exchange they could do a little less damage.

By the way why they don't have a sergeant?

[troglodytejb]

Zeph--

There's no doubt that dev spam isn't good; however, building a tac squad instead of a dev squad off the break is almost always a bad choice.

I haven't encountered anyone who builds many more scouts off the break, but it sounds like it could be nasty.

Either way, I'm not calling for a nerf, I'm calling for changes to the way they operate. Make them less killy by themselves, but increase their usefulness in combination with other units.

And Sturm, I tried to add you once but I forgot your name-- I'll get it tonight!

[traemyn]

Zephris - I played someone with that scout strat yesterday, heck maybe was you, and they completely wiped out my initial HMG'er and probably my scouts as well. Obviously it works awesome against SM, but does it work as well with the other races early-game?

[Tumbler]

i think all suppression units should deal suppression at medium and long ranges, and lots of damage only at short. If you want to deal the damage, you should have to turn on focus fire and that terminates the suppression portion.

This seems pretty reasonable. They are a little too effective as is. You rarely have to protect them, once there setup almost nothing can get to them.

[Thinking42Man]

I think one of the problems in this game is that ranged units are so incompetent in melee. I often find it hard to justify ever making a shoota, term, tac, or guardian squad, when their melee counterparts are such a better counter to everything. Seems like increasing their damage in melee would help them be a more viable choice.

[Mekztra]

Ranged units in cover and with a few special abilities (Embolden, Waaagh!, whatever) can absolutely destroy charging infantry, even without suppression. Warp Spiders have the best of it because they can keep blipping away from threats into yet more cover.

[Oakwarrior]

Lootas are nigh useless, you're better off having the much more mobile shootas as ranged support.
They need something interesting to justify their position at Tier 2. Once you hit tier 2 you'll probably build a Killa-... DEFF DREAD anyway.

Devastators (Plasma) are, IMO, very useful. The blasty thing is great, if a bit lacking in damage. Otherwise, nice unit, justifies cost, but people rarely build them, just because Dreads are so much better.

[Pathen]

As it stands, there's little emphasis on combined arms-- a single HMG can annihilate an enemy army, so there's no reason to suppress with an HMG and then flank.

We are experiencing the same unpleasant awakening that WW1 tactical commanders did. =P

[Ryouichi]

Just recently I played a game where I utilized Scouts, Devastators, Assault Marines, and Dreadnoughts to scratch out a win. Devastators leap-frogging while the ASM cover their ass and Scouts dislodge any enemy weapons teams.

And the dreadnoughts for armor, damage soaking, intimidation, and pure carnage. When they got damaged they'd fall back behind the devastator lines and I'd have my Scout repair them.

If that isn't a good example of combined arms, I don't know what is.

On a different but similar note, weapon teams are only extremely dangerous when the enemy units have no cover. Otherwise you could very well find yourself flanked while trying to kill a squad that's in heavy cover. Or jumped on, seeing as 2-3 ASM squads are good for killing more than double their count of weapon teams.

[Smikis]

i dunno how can you compare lootas to devs, devs comes much earlier.. takes more beating than lootas.. and deals 3x dps.. and 2x supresion than lootas.. lootas are hardly useable. no reason to buy them, they do not cost energy if you got loads of requasite..

[Logic_Bomb]

One interesting difference - devs can be building garrisonned and shurikens can't - haven't tested out the orky one yet - also not sure if plasma cannon can garrison.

[Akagi_Ryu]

Plasma cannons can garrison and are damn good at it.
I honestly can't see why people wouldn't want at least one squad... They cover a huge area and any inf unit that gets hit by one such blue ball gets almost momentarily annihilated, not to mention they can take out tanks and walkers as well.

[Killer Of Many]

Maybe at T3 the devastator plasma squad can have an upgrade to laser cannon? And perhaps instead of the loota upgrade which you either have one or the other but not both you can interchange like a commander upgrade[not sure how that'll look to be honest]. But I believe a laser cannon would make a nice anti tank weapon having no splash damage, and although it would instantly kill any unit really it should have terrible accuracy against inf, kind of like an at gun in coh

[Daedron]

I would personally think a small power cost addition to the heavy weapons teams would help. Allowing people to get out the counters such as jump troops and stikk bombs a chance to hit the field and actually be able to counter.

The first engagement can be critical to a game and not being able to field a counter to the turrets beyond avoiding them can be a pain in the ass that just really isn't that fun.

[Scooter]

I would worry about nerfing the support weapons too much
I think that once players learn to deal with them (in a simlar way to COH) we'll find they aren't that awesome.

They take a long time to unpack and often can't retreat from something that can kill them - forcing you to lose the entire squad, whereas other squads would get away and so have a much lower req cost.

They're also insanely vulnerable to jump troops - ASMs, Warpspiders (or the exarch), the Ork Rokkit Boyz (forget the name). There are so many counters for them that almost all end up with the entire squad dying - sometimes without doing any damage in return.

Nerfing the HMGs is also likely to encourage big mob spam, particularly for orcs and tyrannids. Could it be that Relic realizes what they did to COH with OF, and are trying their best to apologize?

[Zephris]

troglodytejb,traemyn

To follow up on your questions and comments,
3X scouts is basically evil.

You run out cap your power wait a moment get 20 power, with that you now have shotguns and cloaking, your scouts can fire while cloaked, they only stop being cloaked when the power runs out, which takes a while, and while they do reveal briefly while firing if your using shotguns and their just dev squads then their basically gibs waiting to happen.

In regard other races I find it works perfectly against Orks and Eldar also, I've not fought to much against nids usually one of my friends handles them so I can't comment.

What I can say right now is my main combat baiscally involves me using these scouts up to the midgame, usually 5 mins in and then going to T2 and 2 dreadnaughts. So far this works perfectly and since they can scout they make the perfect flanking units.

For example if an army is setting up on the Desert map to attack, I'll mention to a friend to start pushing up the middle as he starts to come in range of the Defenders I'll move my scouts in from the side, either down stairs or through an arch, behind the defending force and the first shotgun volley will disable most of the Heavy weapons everyone is so dependent on, thus allowing us to neatly sandwhich and utterly decimate the defending forces :)

Also since the Scouts come out early so long as you take care of them they'll be nice and high in level too :)

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Plasma cannons have a different role than HBs. They are, as said, artillery. The HB is a heavy machine gun. What the plasma cannon lets you do is pound enemy positions from afar, destroying turrets and heavy weapons teams, forcing the enemy to engage, pull back, or counter-artillery.

[matariel]

you know in all of this, I haven't seen anyone mention nids once. Exactly what do they have that can counter hvy weapons teams? for one aside from the warriors + entanglement cannons they have no suppressive ability. On top of that, for a 'heavy weapons team' the warriors do next to no dmg when upgraded with that thing.

gaunts are pretty ok overall for a beginning shooter but their ai has some serious issues (order a term squad to attack something, they will run all the way upto it and THEN back off to their normal range THEN begin to fire). I lost an entire squad Holding Position that way.

I assume the answer lies in mines? Tried that as well, very strong those things are but for a 100 req just how many mines am I supposed to spam. I'm a little bit bothered honestly, I've been trying different things but it feels like nids have little capability to deal with hvy weapons teams :S (bioplasma excluded of course)

[Hirmetrium]

Rippers+synapse is pretty rape. They tie up and then you can finish them off rather quick. Also, warriors are the best HWT in the game - they suppress while running around without any setup, but its very inaccurate and they getup for getting hit by the next attack.

[matariel]

that is true, they dont setup. As far as suppressing that is very true. so rippers huh? I'll keep that in mind.

[killer-ra]

Yeah Rippers are suppression proof under Warrior synapse. So Warriors w/Barbed Stranglers + rippers + Hormagaunts is a good combo.

[matariel]

and warriors only provide synapse when upgraded w/ adrenal right?

edit: i meant warriors, my bad. rippers never provide synapse, that'd be silly; they're far too dumb for that haha

although ill keep in mind this rippers anti-suppression business, very useful.

[bjbrains]

No. Rippers have anti-supression under any synapse, it's pretty nice.

[EndmostTortoise]

I've been scanning the forums, but have yet to see this mentioned, and I saw that it wasn't mentioned in the OP's list.

Has anyone used d-cannon teams?
I recently had an ally use one's special ability, Singularity, on an enemy I was fighting at pretty close range with my Tyranids. The ability creates a vortex and does huge damage as it sucks in any surrounding units. I lost almost my entire army. Out of 4 or 5 various guant squads, 2 warrior squads, and a tyrant only one warrior squad, the tyrant, and one termaguant squad (due to being outside the radius) survived.
At first I had no idea what had done this, and my ally's only comment was "warpcannons rock"
That was my first time seeing someone using a d-cannon and while I got royally screwed, I was somewhat impressed.

[BuBa_HoTeP]

I saw a video of some1 use this and the farseer eldrich storm ability or what ever its called together it looked painfull

[BlueJackal]

Before I say anything else: I really feel like their short range damage should be nerfed. I don't know, I try to get into melee range, and often ALMOST succeed, but the results are devastating and quick. Maybe that's intentional, but losing 3/5ths your squad in literally a second or two is pretty harsh. I suppose I second the OP: increase their set-up time by a second, maybe two?

I play a lot of 'nids, and I've rarely used Rippers. I tried them out once, on the swamp map, but the way the Eldar was set up, the Rippers couldn't get to him, or something. (He was set up right outside his base.)

Of course, the Hive Tyrants charge ability is lots of fun, and is a Tier 1 solution. Of course, it depends on how many squads you're charging.

I've found avoiding heavy weapons to be a pretty effective strategy as Orks, especially since teching to a Deff Dread is rather cheap for Orks. Of course, I might've just been playing against noobs, since I've only played about 4 1v1 games as Orks.

For Space Marines, well, ASM are pretty awesome, unless they've got their suppression weapon backed up by another suppression weapon. I've always wondered about a <> overlapping set up. Seems like it might be broken.

[Jaerah]

all supressing units should have their damage halved, they're supposed to be there to stop the unit so you can use your combined arms to win the battle. spamming shurikens is dumb.

lootas: completely agree. useless unit. upgraded shootas in a house do as much damage as a loota, minus the suppression which isnt needed as ork.

[Hugdealer]

keep in mind that depending on your race your opening unit can beat the opposing heavy weapon squad in melee.

I know that i can use my scout to melee a shruk squad and tie it up and win in melee.

Ive found that going 2 scouts followed by a tact squad can give me the edge to tie up and heavy weapons platforms that try and get me. then i can upgrade the apoth to master bolter and use full auto to dislodge one when i need to.

[Oakwarrior]

Oh gods don't nerf HW's, I'm having a blast destroying them with cunning tactics. The more they build, the more I destroy, so, they're fine by me. 'Cept they suppress crap in cover way too fast.